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Alternative Currency Goes Mainstream As Bitcoin ATMs Emerge
Submitted by Michael Krieger of Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,
The Bitcoin ATM has Arrived... Here’s How it Works
The more I learn about Bitcoin, the more I support it. In fact, the only donations we accept on this site are Bitcoin donations. As I mentioned in a post late last summer, I think it represents another way to fight back against the current repressive and immoral monetary system that has a strangle hold on the planet. Ever since WordPress.com (the extremely popular blogging platform and 22nd most popular site on the internet), decided to accept Bitcoin as payment last November the value of Bitcoins versus the U.S. dollar has more than doubled.
The esoteric crypto-currency continues to gain popularity and technologies to make it even more user friendly are popping up all over the place. The latest is the Bitcoin ATM, which could be a serious game changer for adoption. From CNET:
NASHUA, N.H. — Zach Harvey has an ambitious plan to accelerate adoption of the Internet’s favorite alternative currency: installing in thousands of bars, restaurants, and grocery stores ATMs that will let you buy Bitcoins anonymously.
It’s the opposite of a traditional automated teller that dispenses currency. Instead, these Bitcoin ATMs will accept dollar bills — using the same validation mechanism as vending machines — and instantly convert the amount to Bitcoins and deposit the result in your account.
Harvey and Matt Whitlock are partners in a New Hampshire-based venture, Lamassu Bitcoin Advisors, that’s hoping to commercialize the ATM by selling to retail businesses, especially ones that also want to accept the decentralized alternative currency from customers.
Unlike modern currency, which can be brought into existence at the whim of politicians or a central bank, leading to each note being devalued, the number of Bitcoins is governed by predictable mathematical algorithms. That’s made Bitcoin popular among libertarians and other activists skeptical of the Federal Reserve; the Free State Project accepts payment for its summer festival in Bitcoins, for instance. (The U.S. dollar has lost 96 percent of its value over the last century because of cumulative year-over-year inflation, according to federal government data.)
To obtain Bitcoins, people use an iPhone app like Blockchain or Android‘s BitcoinSpinner to show the ATM a QR code with their desired address for payments. After they insert a dollar bill (denominations up to $100 are accepted), the ATM automatically credits their Bitcoin account with the proceeds. There’s a 1 percent transaction fee.
Just awesome. Great work guys!
Full article here.
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I hear ya. Nothing makes less sense to me than criticising the dollar for a lack of regulation and oversight and then globbing onto an alternative currency with zero regulation or oversight. You can't even cash out of your bitcoins if you want to. The major exchanges put arbitrary and tiny limits on how much you can convert to Dollars on a daily basis. Ponzi red flag.
Your bank prevents you from transferring as much cash as you'd like - still a ponzi red flag?
Regulation and oversight? You think the dollar or euro is a model of regulatory accomplishment? You're mind-boggingly naive.
I have never had any problem transferring as much cash as I like with my credit union. The bitcoin exchanges have had limits as low as $50. Why are you advocating people lose their money on this garbage? What's your motivation?
I don't need people to get 'in'. What I do need is people to understand how it works. You clearly don't have the inclination to do so. Please try to restrain yourself, if you're able.
Here's a good infographic by the way:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/img/06Bitcoin-1338412974774.jpg
If you expect your "investment" in bitcoins to pay off, you absolutely do need people to get in. Why is every bitcoin superfan completely ignorant of even the most obvious and base understanding of how markets work?
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
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XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
Nice logic twist - I can almost admire the gyrations you're performing mentally to project yourself out on 'top'.
I don't need uninformed users of bitcoin. I don't even need the edge-exchanges that provide a sovereign currency valuation. You see, the end-game here is services and products priced in bitcoin, not dollars/yen/euros. So if I get paid in bitcoin, and buy things with bitcoin - why step out into the badly mis-managed sovereign currencies?
I really don't need them, and neither do you - you just don't realize it.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
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XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
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XENOFROG THE ASTROTURFER FOR FIAT SHIT.
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If this is the answer, someone asked a damn strange question.
I have trouble cashing a $10 bill ...forget about Bitcoins!
Read about it. It can work. Its essentially based on mathematical formulas and encryption, wherein there's a limit to how many could ever be produced, and who owns what.
Think of it as replacing a bunch of bureaucrats playing fiat con games with a mathematical formula that is transparent, rock solid, unchanging, predictable and best of all, finite.
It makes it impossible to impose any direct manipulation, which is why it will be vigorously opposed.
You really want to encourage people to get into a system with zero regulation or accountability, and where all the easily mined coins are already held by a small number of people? Bitcoin is rife with manipulation both in price and in their exchange.
False statements yet again. The distribution is widespread and not concentrated in one place. You can verify this on the blockchain itself - since it is the ledger for all balances and transactions.
Bitcoin is rife with manipulation? You mean like the stock market and High Frequency Trading? Corizined funds? Bernie Madoff? HSBC Laundering?
Sorry, the conventional financial system holds the record for being corrupt and "regulated".
You're blatently lying. A huge number of coins are being held by a few major players. Mining now is horribly inefficient and actually costs you more than you ever see in return unless you think bitcoin is going to the moon. (which it isn't)
Oh my, you just can't help yourself, eh?
Citations? Proof? You know, things that lend credibility to your rather outlandish statements?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/06/22/the-bitcoin-richest-ac...
*hands you a shovel* Wanna keep digging yourself a hole or are you done?
Excellent, our first citation! You have to excuse my excitement, since all I've gotten from you so far is a bunch of far-flung statements.
Looking at that link for top-ten addresses with balances, the total is approx. ~ 979,179 bitcoins.
As of today, the total amount in circulation is: ~ 10,833,000
That means the top holders represent: 9.03% of the total in circulation.
How does this help you at all? I believe you said that the top holders would dominate...
http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/
Your community's own tools betray you. Depending on your location and computer, electricity use can be up to $3-5 dollars a day for 24 hours of uninterrupted mining. And there's no guarantee that after a certain amount of time that you will ever get a coin as the way the system is set up, only the person who cracks the block gets the coin. You could leave your computer on for months without receiving a single coin at the current difficulty.
You're such an obvious bitcoin shill/spammer. Vested interest? Who's paying you?
Bitcoin will NEVER be money... not EVER.
Agreed. Even the most basic of economic principles are working against Bitcoin being a functional currency. Ask a bitcoiner about Gresham's Law and their eyes will glaze over and you will have to call an ambulance to pick up their violently shaking body.
damn...ok,ok. +1 for persistence!
Being familiar with Gresham's law, I recognize that you have just equated bitcoin with "good money".
Read about it.
Best advice of the day, 156. The trolls will ignore it, the sensible people won't.
Thanks.
BitCoin Bank Of the World.
Trust us, we are part of the NWO..............said the Spider to the Fly.
Yeah, borrowing a currency on a moonshot can be suicidal. Borrowing at interest in a currency with a fixed amount in circulation will lead to disaster. Both of these observations assume enforcement. If this bank's loans are enforced, they are part of the NWO. If they aren't enforced, NWO scammers will bleed their BTC. Either way, you don't want to feed them.
So you can issue your own currency in the US, how cool is that!
The founder of bitcoins has already burned you guys once. What are bitcoins backed by anyway?
What is gold backed by anyway?
What is your labor backed by? If you traded $1 for a Bitcoin and then traded it later for $2, you saw a 100% increase in dollars. You in effect became richer, but you didn't earn it.
What labor did you trade to earn the extra dollar?
How is Bitcoin any different than a digital representation of the stock of company A?
You can't buy a new car with a stock certificate, but you can trade $20k for shares of Chipotle, hoping it will double in a short time period so you can trade the same number of Chipotle shares for $40k and have enough for tha brand new BMW. You couldn't afford the BMW before, but now you can and it didn't require any extra labor.
I'd be fine if Bitcoins could never be traded for any fiat currency. A closed system. As soon as you could trade other currencies for Bitcoin, it became a scam. The idea that I can use dollars to purchase a Bitcoin and later trade it for more dollars makes it a scam. The purchasing power of the dollar did not drop 100% in the last month, so the value of the Bitcoin is not constant against the purchasing power of the dollar.
You do realize I can turn those analogies of yours right back at you with simply replacing bitcoins with gold, right? /rolleyes
Honestly, I think these trolls are on some Fed's payroll.
Asking questions is sensible. Plain old FUD isn't.
Yeah, the pro-bitcoin trolls
"What is gold backed by anyway?"
5,000+ years of human history, and the Earth.
Ok. Well Bitcoin in that case is backed by 4 years of history and the laws of mathematics in this universe.
Yeah thanks guys, a passcode. I'll write it down. And if my wife cleans my computer desk in a fit of wild estrogen, there goes my life savings.
God Forbid I hit "ctrl-C" on the code, and it gets shunted into some kind of keystroke or screen copy malware.
Sounds solid.
Have you ever looked into the problem, to see if maybe someone has addressed it?
Evidently not.
There's only so far I will go as far as leaving the security of my accumulated currency in someone else's hands.
At the end of the day, it's redeemable scrip.
it's not math its an algorithm, two distinct things. one is based on "is" the other is based on "ought" one is man made and one is not man made
Gold is man-crafted.
Bitcoin is math-crafted.
4 years and 1 - 1 = 0 ?
Best of luck.
do women crave bitcoin?
WHY OF COURSE YEAH!
http://www.reddit.com/r/decrypto
http://www.reddit.com/r/GirlsGoneBitcoin
Good thing we haven't managed to successfully mine asteroids yet... If we did, gold and platinum could become a LOT cheaper.
http://mashable.com/2012/04/26/planetary-resources-asteroid-mining-trill...
Good thing we haven't managed to successfully mine asteroids yet... If we did, gold and platinum could become a LOT cheaper.
successfully=at a cost lower than the value of gold and platinum. best of luck with that.
Most of this talk and speculation about mining asteriods is only so much twaddle from quantitatively-thinking-challenged simpletons.
It is all but meaningless, and utterly irrelevant, to point to this or that asteroid and declare "Wow, just look at how much gold (or silver, or platinum) is in that thing! If only we could mine it, we'd be rich!" Not so fast there, Flash Gordon.
First of all, one would have to get to that asteroid --- no mean feat even nowadays, and terribly expensive in both time and money. Then, one would have to expend VASTLY more resources, and energy, and time, in bringing that asteroid into earth orbit. THEN, one would have to expend even MORE vast amounts of energy in breaking apart, processing, and refining the asteroid. THEN, one has to figure out a safe and efficient method to bring the refined metals from the asteroid down to earth --- one cannot just drop them, and it takes even MORE vast amounts of energy to send a presumably large cargo vessel down to the earth's surface in a controlled, non-free-falling manner.
Actually, we can avoid spending most of all that time and money and energy, as we already have asteroids right here on the surface of the earth right now; they are called mountains. Sure, I can point to Mount Everest or Mount Ranier and say "Just think of how much gold (or silver or platinum) is in that one mountain!" Yeah, and so what? It is not the absolute amount of metal within a given volume of rock that matters in the least, it is the grade, the percentage of that rock that is the desired resource, that makes mining profitable or not.
I think it is entirely possible that asteroids may be mined someday, but that day is far, far in the future, and awaits advances in space propulsion that have probably not even been dreamt of yet.
bitcoin exchanges have to be backed by some repository of fiat. who backs it?
i see this as a stealthy way to encourage an international one world currency which the banks would love as the value need not be exchanged via an fx market but is automatically reflected in the local bitcoin price until "real" fiat is needed which eventually won't be needed.
sorry. i won't play until it becomes necessary so i can't be blamed for it.
You send your money to the exchange, buy your bitcoin, and withdraw your bitcoin.
You don't have to leave USD or BTC at an exchange, and indeed you should not except for as long as it takes to fill your order.
and where is the "real" fiat used for the exchange kept and who distributes it and how is the fiat accessed if i buy with dolllars and exchange the bitcoins for yen? as a business, how are the bitcoins accounted for(i assume in a separate bitcoin book) and how are profit and loss determined as function of paying taxes?
Who cares, you're only have to be exposed to an exchange as your counterparty for as long as your trade is pending. Once you buy your BTC, you can and should withdraw it from the exchange.
I think you are under the misconcpetion that all BTC are held by exchanges? This is not the case at all. BTC exist in the public ledger, and your private key allows you to spend yours.
Bank-like entities MAY be used, just as you MAY hold an IOU for silver or gold. But you may also hold it yourself.
I just love the 1% fee. Just another way to shear the flock.
Just like credit and debit cards --- just because the consumer does not see the 2-3% fee per transaction does not mean that it is not added to the costs of just about everything, which I, being a very rare user of plastic, highly resent.
Closer to .00001% in most cases (or even free)
Example real transaction:
https://blockchain.info/tx/652d83ae22f9cf5aa91853079233f004f4d8599980fa6...
~2711 BTC sent ( $84,000 USD )
Fee 0.0005 BTC = .000018%
Try sending that much cash around the world with Western Union and see what it costs you.
GOD WILLS IT
Are the jews involved?
Yes, it's a giant Jewish Conspiracy! A drunk rabbi admitted it to me. Stay away!
Dumbass.
damn, you jews are sensitive
Jews<------------------>Ponzi
Can anyone provide me a practical real-world case where I would urgently need to trade physical cash for bitcoins at a time when I was away from my computer?
I mean, I am not aware of any "real world" merchants who will only sell you a real physical item in exchange for virtual currency exclusively. Therfore, seeing that pair of shoes in the window that you "just have to have" does not seem like a plausible case for opening bitcoin ATM's around town
I can, however, see the logistical advantage of Bitcoin ATM's in the local bars, so that when the hooker tells you how many bitcoins that evening's "services" will cost, and you check your smart phone and realize that you are a few coins short; it will be very fortunate for you that there is a device at the end of the bar that will convert the numerous Andrew Jackson's in your wallet into the means to enjoy the glory of the following morning's self doubts about whether you may now be tainted with venereal warts or crabs....
And, while we're on the subject, What's the interest rate on a Bitcoin saving's account? How many bitcoins does a fractional reserve institution need to have on deposit in order to secure it's loan liability portfolio...?
So many questions....
Last one- How does a Bitcoin satisfy Aristotle's 4th principle of sound money "It must have intrinsic value. This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself. " .... ???????
"It must have intrinsic value. This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself. " .... ???????
----------------
the only value is the intrinsic value of a working internet with avaiable electricity which means it is worth nothing or a lot when you don't have one or both. it is worth nothing because you cannot access it but worth millions to pay to access it-my kingdom for a horse kinda thing.
You can redeem your electrons for pretty blinking on a LED. Intrinsic value of bitcoin!
As soon as it gains any traction in the mainstream, the Treasury and the ATF will declare it and it's servers/users as illegal and a mechanism for terrorist money operations.
Use of N.D.A.A. to send major players to Guantanamo without a trial.
That's what encryption is intended for
Too much faith in ethereal binary digits.
Those machines can be carted away, and anyone conducting Bitcoin transactions as well.
Ask the guys who ran Pirate Bay how long the arm of the kleptoligarchy is.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/261831/pirate_bay_cofounder_arrested_in_c...
Strange that Pirate Bay is STILL running then:
http://www.thepiratebay.org/
Bitcoin is peer-to-peer similar to torrenting/file-downloading meaning you'd have to cart away the computers of each and every participant in every country, assuming you can find them, to make it stop.
Possible? Yes. Probable? No.
Around the same time the DHS will be using backscatter and millimeter wave tech to find your gold stash.
We'll see you there.
Again: But, we can't stop buying gasoline because the Feds won't let us use our Molotovs.
If this were in any way "anti-establishment", it would be declared counterfeiting as were Liberty silver dollars.
Since one can only obtain Bitcoins by purchasing with fiat money, hard to see how it is much different than a gift card (used where Bitcoins are accepted),
or one of those intro credit cards limited to the amount you advance into the account,
or possibly one of those paper gold accounts not backed by actual gold.
You can "mine" bitcoins, so that is the original way to obtain them (using computers crunching numbers similar to the SETI project). They started to trade against currencies after they were mined and traded.
Bitcoin isn't just useful as a store of value, it is useful as a payment protocol. Specifically, a payment protocol that the government does not control or have inside access to. So if you want to buy gold and silver without them knowing what, where, when and how much Bticoin is the way to send the funds to do that.
But in order to send bitcoins for this purpose you need to acquire them from somewhere.
Which is fine, except there are only so many bitcoins that the protocol will allow to exist. Currently about 10.8 million BTC, but that is inflating at the rate currently of about 12.5%, and will slow over time tending towards zero new currency issued per year. So all these people paying for purchases using bitcoins consume some of the available supply. That's why bitcoins also have value as a currency -- the supply is a scarce commodity.
Now currently the demand for use in commerce is nowhere near requriing the total $300+ million USD valuation for transactions each day but there's trillions of money flows ... if Bitcoin continues being used for more and more, that $300+ million USD valuation won't be nearly enough.
And that makes it also an attractive investment opportunity today. But even if you never plan to invest in bitcoin or never use it to buy anything yourself, you gotta appreciate that it provides a way to send value globally, without interference. That alone will limit what we put up with by the State because there alternatives where if we want to do it differently Bitcoin makes it possible.
I understand the sentiment and the desire to be free from Imperial entanglements (the state); however, this is why you should use it to your convenience while you can but DO NOT invest in it.
".... it is useful as a payment protocol. Specifically, a payment protocol that the government does not control or have inside access to."
Which is precisely why the goon squads of the Treasury, the DHS, the IRS, the DEA, and the BATF will be raiding any business or home here or abroad to put people in jail without a trial.
Someone above mentioned Liberty Coin; perfect example of how willing TPTB are to ignore the rule of law, the Constitution, and morality and ethics to crush anyone dissenting from the will of the kleptoligarchy.
face to face, pay cash anonymously.
Governments will regulate any overseas "anonymous" transfers of money whenever it suits them.
Long Hard-Coin: A US Penny costs 2-5 cents to make. I'd short the Penny and long the metal.
There's always another 2-bit* opportunity. Just like there's always another bus. Exhale, inhale. Repeat.
* Did you get the pun?
When are the Secret Service and Treasury agents going to appear?
Secret service deals maybe with counterfeit U.S. money. What are you suggesting as the basis for that?
U.S. money being exchanged for counterfeit "currency".
"Threat to national security."
"Drug money laundering."
"Funding terrorist operations."
"Tax avoidance scheme."
There really is no end to the short one sentence reasons they will use along with N.D.A.A. to imprison people and make Bitcoins worthless overnight.
The hegemony of the banker cartel shall not be threatened; and they will use their goon squads to ensure it.
I'm with you in spirit, but the idea is so ethereal, so nebulous, and so exposed to the military network we call the Internet that I must warn you to not put both feet in, perhaps not even a toe.
Uh, sure the government will ban bitcoins, just like they banned drugs and copyright violations/file downloading...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/01/28/government-ban-on-bitc...
Right, and once they ban it they can arrest you for using it, seize your physical assets, put you in prison and force you to pay them $39 a day for ten years for the privilege, and shutter any businesses accepting it as payment.
BITCOIN has been hacked a few times already and accounts lost. We don't need another fake money system.
Wrong. The bitcoin accounts of a few exchanges have been hacked. Bitcoin itself, never.
This is akin to someone stealing passwords to your BofA account (hacking a bitcoin exchange) and spending it v. keeping cash in a safe at home (keeping bitcoin in a private wallet.)
If you can't manage to manifest computing powering in excess of 50% of the bitcoin network, there's no way a bitcoin wallet can be hacked directly.
You do people a disservice by saying, "a few". The major bitcoin exchanges are regularly "hacked" (actually more likely their owners just routinely steal coins from members and call it hacking). The only people who have made any money off of bitcoin are the scammers.
You can't even mine the coins anymore without putting more than it's worth into the electricity and computer equipment you burn up. Unless of course you're stealing either of those things, which is a common retort from bitcoin fanatics.
The major bitcoin exchanges are regularly "hacked" (actually more likely their owners just routinely steal coins from members and call it hacking).
Bullshit.
A simple google search for bitcoin exchange hacked will prove me right. Why are you lying to people?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83794.0
A small list of incidents...
So how much are you being paid for these shrill and inaccurate claims? It can't be much, because you seem to be re-using the same script, with some cosmetic alterations. Hmm, now that I think about it, you're probably an automated script bot.
That would explain your failure to see things logically - you aren't programmed to respond to anything outside of your sole task.
Verification nodes, or miners aren't "burning up", this isn't the chevy volt. The electric costs are minimal, especially with the new ASIC chips coming out. But you know all of this, don't you -- which is why you're pushing so hard on the same topics.
Pathetic.
You must have bought in on that ASIC chip scam. Has he returned from china with your chips yet or have they officially been lost?
I can't believe you guys keep getting scammed over and over.
You don't know me or my business dealings :)
Is there any other drive-by arguments you'd like to make on your behalf? The guilt-by-association meme is running out of steam.
Bitcoin services, websites, clearing houses, and groups are rife with scams and the sort of people who want to trick you out of your "investment" knowing the police won't even investigate it.
"the police won't even investigate it"
That was going to be one of my points too that there is no recourse to losing them. I still believe in their premise though but will find more reason to use them when the BTC community somehow finds a way to investigate and prosecute the theives and hackers already operating.
Who is the governing body? The UN? ICANN? IANA? And where is the jursidiction?
These are just some questions to have.
When it happens, and it happens frequently, the people running the scams return a small number of coins to the 'investors' who just lost their bitcoins and most of them line right up for the next scam like mindless little sheep. Greed is a powerful drug.
The most recent scams have involved mining pools and specialized computer mining rigs. The guys running the scam make promises about output and big leaps in mining capability, then after initial investment, you never hear from them again except for the occasional update as to the delayed chips from China.
I know you're trying your hardest to cherry-pick the best examples. The problem here is you're discovering a rather universal truth - and that is, people can be dishonest.
Look at the banking scams, the clearing firm scams, the ongoing Federal Reserve $85 Billion a month scam.
Every system that has value has its own parasites to deal with. It comes with the territory. But you know this.
So why are you going apeshit about bitcoin? If you hate it so much, why is it such a important thing for you to lie about?
It's not cherrypicking. You can't do a basic search on bitcoin without running into dozens of examples where people like you have taken bitcoin "investers" through the ringer.
Yes, its a common attribute to systems of value. They tend to have a ecosystem of investors and people who are determined to "game" the system.
So bitcoin is different than the dollar how? Oh that's right, bitcoin will be around after the dollar is gone.
One wonders why Bitcoin is not seen as a terrorist while Bernard NotHaus was.
One wonders whether our puppet masters might be the ones running it.
It is stated that its value has doubled since last November against the US dollar. I would prefer to know how it has fared since its introduction.
What confuses me is that if Bitcoin is simply a mathematical creation it means that someone outthere is selling a maths formula for cold hard cash (which is still of value). That is one hell of a profit margin.
Having said that, I still believe that if Bitcoin is agreed upon by buyer and seller, then good luck to them.
The assumption that Bitcoin can never be abused like fiat money, is a foolish proposition. Not only will super hackers attempt to break into it, but even more so its principals might one day become unprincipaled.
the genius of the system is the realization that virtual money can be run by mathematical models that can be adjusted as the need arises.....for good or evil.
> "One wonders whether our puppet masters might be the ones running it."
They wouldn't allow a decentralized anything - currency, government or corporation - to exist at all.
Bitcoin is as for-real as bit torrent and TPTB have been trying to shut that network down for years, unsuccessfully. Bitcoin is even more resilient than bit torrent.
i have the same business model as bitcom except slower.... i use pieces of paper....trust me...the check is in the mail.
How many anti gold/silver posts have been dropped here laughing that a few shinny coins wont make a difference in a SHTF situation, and they may be right, a can of tuna, a buck knife, and a bottle of Jack may be what you want in your pack.
Bitcoin..dependant on
1) a functioning internet
2) a functioning power grid
3) a willing recipient to take a fucking digital credit, even a worthless dollar you can hold in your hand
What am i missing here? Is there any merit to this other form of digital money?
If I didn't know better, I'd say bitcoin was created on purpose to make alternatives to the US Dollar look bad.
"But I have my bitcoins on this flash drive!" - Power is out, your flash drive is now worthless along with the 1s and 0s on it.
Oh hi again - I see you've moved on to the "What if the internet explodes/boils off into space/shuts down" branch of trolling.
Good luck with that - because if the internet gets "shut down" you'll have much bigger problems.
You underestimate the willingness of the government to take desperate measures as their system collapses. Cutting off power and communication is textbook.
And you are underestimating the global reach of a network that has billions of nodes.
This isn't some favela in the foothills of Brazil with a single grafted powerline and cable for access.
Global doesn't mean shit when the power is out and you need to get food for your family.
I find it humorous that the only thing you can think of is the complete dissolution of society as a stopping force for bitcoin.
Does that extreme viewpoint raise any flags for you?
If I said stock XYZ would go to zero if the entire state it was in EXPLODED, would you take ME seriously?
Bingo.
The Bitcoiners don't want to talk about these things... ever notice that?
Anyone promoting bitcoins here either has a large vested interest, and/or is a pump and dumper.
We've talked about it, but I suppose you haven't bothered to listen. Oh, and the typical pump-and-dumper wants people to BUY BUY BUY. I don't wan't you to, at all. Please, hug your green paper and stay right where you are.
I have begun to use Bitcoin. The government is pressuring the Bitcoin sellers and the Bitcoin sites that offer E-wallets . They are demanding personal information on Bitcoin buyers and users. They demand comlete transaction records, and if they don't like the way you use your coins they lock you out of your own E-wallet. They have as much as accused me of laundering money or buying drugs because I bought and transfered a thousands dollars worth of Bitcoin within a 2 week period. Government creeps are already at war with this internet currency. Overpaid government workers with nothing to do but track how much Bitcoin I buy and where I transfer it! USG are a bunch of police state assholes!
And this is the problem, it is all trackable and traceable on the Internet.
That N.S.A. megolith going up in Utah is meant precisely for this kind of crack-down.
ANYTHING you, or especially a business of any kind does - will be traced, down to the last penny or bit-coin - to ensure taxation (all in the name of "national security" no doubt - just like getting your gonads fondled in the land of the "free").
Trust me, you want tangibles that don't leave a trail. Hell, if cartons of cigarettes lasted five years I'd hoard them. At least liquor does, and Gold and Silver, and even those fiat bills while they are still in existence.
I'd bet the next step is getting rid of anything below the Quarter, then eliminating coins, and finally bills of any kind.
Then, everything will be traceable online, whether it is debit or credit swipe or mobile phones. You will pay the national sales tax on the bike you buy at the garage sale, the hooker in Vegas, the ounce of Gold that will be tagged as such.
Brave New World.
+1 Thanks for pointing that out: Precisely the problem with e-anything. You're leaving a giant trail of your earnings and spending habits for the goons. Individual transactions may be peer to peer, but the inherent system is one of public broadcast.
A lot of comments about the technical aspects (Power outage/hacking/blah) don't bother me about Bitcoin, since this enterprise seems obviously inchoate, and apparently you can save/print out your bitcoin certificates and keep it in your safe/underpants/flash drive. But the foundation principles and counterparty risk of holding your funds with one organization (within US jurisdiction no less) seem alarming.
"Unlike modern currency, which can be brought into existence at the whim of politicians or a central bank, leading to each note being devalued, the number of Bitcoins is governed by predictable mathematical algorithms."
That's the blurb, and it forgets to mention that algorithms can be changed at the whim of programmers. I can see some of them changing the parameters in the rate of new Bitcoin creation to make themselves all billionaires. After all, what's the harm? Bankers and politicians do it all the time. Right now, it is a nice alternate cash store for anyone remotely interested in computing. Bitcoins can be gained by hashing/data mining and of course promotional crap like registering your email with them and referrals - I suggest you do it because it is free. It's when it enters the realms outside the computing community that it falls down flat in the real world. For countries like the US, currency is based on debt, or more precisely the unlikely promise of productivity and taxes from generations yet unborn. If Bitcoins take FRNs in exchange, that is what Bitcoin's backing will be: Debt (And money created out of thin air by fractional reserve, rehypothecated tangibles, and imaginary derivatives). Not computing power, not problem solving, not human effort, but debt and fantasies. If Bitcoins only took Gold and Silver in exchange as well as computing work, it would be backed by gold and silver and computing work. See what I mean? But who the hell would be crazy enough to offload their PMs for Bitcoins? Some would, I am sure, if it became a real medium of convenient exchange and perhaps that is what they are aiming for.
Foundation for an enterprise is so important. If they accept FRNs in exchange, they are just acting like another federal reserve buying America's worthless IOUs, inflating the Bitcoin supply, and pretending to do good whilst defrauding those who trust an "alternative" currency. Unless they STOP accepting FRNs, they are the just another small scale primary dealer whore for the Fed. A whore who can track you and your money for life.
I think you're confusing a few points.
The algorithms can't be changed at a whim - because they'd have to be adopted by every full node that is doing verification processing. Bitcoin "miners" aren't updated automatically, and have no 'push' mechanism for doing so - it is up to the person running the node to agree to the changes.
As for the edge-exchanges, they're just a phase - ultimately services and goods are going to be priced in bitcoins and there won't be any edge risk on conversion. It will all stay within the system.
Precious metals aren't going to be replaced by bitcoins - they will be augmented by them. Nobody is saying ditch all your gold or silver, at all.
Agreed! Most of the folks I know who have any Bitcoin holdings also have PLENTY of silver and gold (not to mention food, guns, ammo etc...), just in case the unlikely but possible end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it power-grid-crash-and-burn internet-gone scenario ever does materialize.
If you think that scenario is likely, than by all means you should avoid any significant Bitcoin holdings.
Thanks mate. Fair enough - you say that changes to the rate of Bitcoin creation have to be disseminated to every full node. Yet there have been well known cases of fraud and theft at exchanges blamed on "Hackers", but later it appears to be fairly unsophisticated insider manipulation - the collapse of Bitcoin Savings and Trust for example is under SEC investigation. I doubt a sophisticated subtle effort would be detected or even suspected if the reasons for changing the user-traded value was plausible enough, like a massive sell/buy order to manipulate an exchange's value of a Bitcoin to skim off the difference before the system corrected itself.
Bitcoin is not a bad idea, particularly if it is not backed by FRNs. But if/when the Fed starts buying billions of dollars of Bitcoins, it will merely be replicating the old system.
I respect your view - and I can't say whether the FED will willingly try to subvert it with purchases - that is a tack that I haven't considered.
You are absolutely 100% correct that badly secured web services are vulnerable. I can't refute that. I will say that the underlying protocol is sound.
Respect yours also, and I can fully understand people's excitement at the prospect of an alternative currency separated from government/bank manipulation. Hence the recommendation to sign up even with reservations. The principles of "Secure" peer-to-peer networks, IF absolutely private, and free from interference is sound in a perfect world. You're right - Satoshi did a decent job. Anyway, I won't belabour my reservations because you have obviously understood my fears about the real possibility of Fed manipulation. A pleasure - Cheers mate.
Electronic “money” mediums, aka the “cashless” economy, will prevent anonymity, not allow it.
By their design, and by design, they enable and will be used for, greater government control.
I
recommend this article:http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-cashless-society-is-almost-here-and-with-some-very-sinister-implications/5313515
+1, and wish I could hit it multiple times.
However, I do like this Bitcoin concept, and plan to look into it more.
I like the idea of a currency available anytime and anywhere the 'net is available that I can use almost as anonymously as cash.
I like helping reduce demand for the Fed's fiat with my middle finger fully extended. (Somehow, I keep getting these bills with "Don't blame me. I voted for RON PAUL!" on the back of them in big red letters. Now there's a middle finger for ya! More power to that guy.)
Electronic transactions off all kinds will, in virtually all instances, be completely controlled by global governing authorities, and Bitcoin will succumb to that. But, we can't stop buying gasoline because the Feds won't let us use our Molotovs.
This is BS. You don't have to use any of the services you just said wanted your ID information from you.
You can go to http://localbitcoins.com find some person nearby to sell you bitcoins anonymously, you can run your own wallet on your own computer behind TOR without anyone ever knowing anything and you can have as many Bitcoin accounts as you want so even if you have to tie one to your ID you can have as many other as you need to hide the rest of your transactions.
Bitcoin offers complete anonymity, you just have to dig a little deeper and learn how to properly use it. The only objection you can possibly have to this is that it's not all delivered on a silver platter to you but then again, nothing worth having in life ever is.
So who runs localbitcoins.com?
I'm sure there is a server somewhere that the good squad can shut down.
And really, if they wanted to, they could shut down anything trying to send or receive with "bitcoin" in it, as well as any encryption algorithm's related to Bitcoin exchange.
I'm with you all in spirit but please use your heads; it doesn't matter what math or code you use, anything online is reducible to 0 and 1, and doesn't work if the power goes out or the "pipes" you rely on are clogged or severed.
I can't back anything that isn't physical that has doubled in value in a month. Bitcoin moves like a penny stock scam.
Bitcoins are also valued based on the labor of computers to "mine" them. Computers that use kilowatt power supplies for hours to "mine" something worth $30 really isn't worth it. My power bill would est up most of the value.
Many people are investing in Bitcoin in the chance the value in other currencies increases. Many early Bitcoiners cashed out for massive gains in dollars, euros, whatever. New money chasing after return letting old money cash out.
I'm sorry but Bitcoin has Ponzi written all over it. Please tell me how it is not? Even worse than being paid in dollars for my labor, some "enterprising" asshole wants me to convert my dollars to Bitcoins for a 1% fee. You think Harvey and Matt Witlock even care about Bicoin? They see the ATMs as a scam to make dollars off something they see as a chance of becoming popular.
I have a PHD in scams, I've been surrounded by scam artists for years. I've worked for scammers and quit once the scam became apparent. I've had my business destroyed by scammers ripping me off for a quick buck. The problem is virtually everything in the world today is a scam. A scam is antything that requires no personal labor to enrich the people running it.
You want a real alternative currency. Trade labor for labor.
I'm getting a bit old for that labor thing, but if you break something especially something made of metal, bring it to me and I'll fix it
Otherwise, do you accept these cool credits??
I have my own version of Bitcoin, its called GOLD muther fucker.
Can you store your gold in your brain practically impossible for anyone to steal it?
Can you send your gold to someone practically instantly around the world?
Can you carry your gold over the border without anyone even suspecting you are carrying your entire wealth with you?
Can you verify how much gold actually covers all the paper certificates out there representing claims on gold?
Can you buy anything in any online store with your gold?
BTW I own gold, I think it's the best money we have, most of my wealth is in gold. But I'm not religiously attached to it. Owning it doesn't preclude me from seeing merits in a pieice of technology that can vastly improve my life. How about you stop the religiousness and start using some logic and reason and come to some real arguments. Because that's what I did when I first heard about it, for two weeks straight actually, before enough peers said the same things that made perfect sense convincing me this wasn't a fad. I mean is some rational integrity so much to ask for these days, especially from sound money people?
it isn't "sound money". it might be better money
for money to be sound money must be a commodity of some sort
It can be a digital commodity like a digital sword or a digital cow but with properties conducive to being money. In the beginning these bitcoins, these points in a distributed ledger (btw if you don't know what I mean with that you really should look into it before you respond to me) they weren't really valuable. There was a time when they were only guessed to be worth about 0.003 dollars which was what it cost to issue them but no one was actually trading them. But then a strange thing happened, people showed up who wanted some, not because they were valuable but because they saw some value in them, to them it was arguably a commodity that they wanted much like people wanted gold when some people started wearing it as jewellery.
There's a famous story of a guy practically begging the Bitcoin forum for someone to sell him two pizzas for 10k bitcoins. And someone did. Why do you think that someone did that? Do you think he thought he was getting money? Or isn't more likely that he thought he was getting some sort of a digital commodity within an interesting technology that he valued for some other reason. I think it's the latter and hence Bitcoin can be shiny like gold jewellery and can be a commodity of another sort. It's the digital age, isn't it? Why couldn't there be a digital commodity?
you can have a digital commodity but the use of commodity in relation to money is specific to this definition : an economic good: as a : a product of agriculture or mining
why is this necessary because the core of money is trust. gold is great because to get it requires work by intelligent productive people to increase in qty. this starts the trust chain if you will. they then have to trust a refiner and the refiner must then trust the people they are paying salaries to and on and on. This gets money first into the hands of "good people" which increase the productive capacity of the world which is what gives money its value. I know this is not always the case but on the whole it is true.There is no inherent trust system built into bitcoin it relies on faith in an algorithm which is ultimately controlled by someone. Maybe that person will be trustworthy for the next 100 years and like the US build a massive amount of credibility but maybe not.
btw I think bitcoin is probably as cool as the internet itself but it does not and cannot have the properties of sound money so long as it is not backed up by a physical something. I also think as a currency it probably is a great idea and could continue to appreciate.It's so hilarious to watch all these for lack of a better words religious objections to a piece of technology that is starring you right in the face, freely available for you to use and with it to regain your financial sovereignty and yet the majority of commenters are totally blind to it.
But hey, that's ok. You be the religious skeptics as long as you need, we who understand this technology will manage with or without you. Just don't come crying about unfair advantage to the early adopters in 5 or 10 years from now when your favorite website you buy your whatever from will ask you to pay in bitcoins. ;)
Sunstein's trolls attacking Bitcoin... We're obviously on to something.
Pretty hilarious the religious adoption of this technology by some of the posters here.
Don't take it personal, in these last days everyone is running with thier convictions, and at the end of all this, shelter and a full belly will be all that matters.
Divi those eggs in a couple of baskets
Religious? More like religiously reasoned about using logic and empirical evidence. You have no idea how much scrutiny I've put Bitcoin under before I began to trust it.. And you should do the same.
But dismissing it out of hand just because it doesn't sound good to you is the most stupid thing you can do and you would never catch me do something like that.
You didn't say "logic and empirical evidence" did you?
Never forget the lustful beast at the base of all logic and fact.
Logic and empirical evidence will never protect you from the baboons of the goon squad.
Bitcoin has a distinctly black tulips / Confederate currency feel to it.
Greek philosophers theorized the existence of the atom and the quark using observation, intuition, and creativity. Logic and empirical evidence devoid of gut feelings and common sense is the most dangerous tool known to humanity.
For those of you who still have a hard time understand Bitcoin, please read this: Wrapping your head around Bitcoin (a guide ~5min reading time)
Hazek and CH1 I appreciate your devotion and persistence to this as well as the other's posting on BTC's behalf so thanks. It is better to have the mixture of opinion and knowledge.
Some people are just skeptical as it should be.
I don't mind skepticism at all. I myself was a huge skeptic when I first learned about it. And my goal with my posts is not to advocate for Bitcoin it is simply to educate. I don't care if any of you use Bitcoin but I do care if people spread lies and fallacies and sophistry as supposed valid arguments against this technology.
Btw I will also be the first to tell you that Bitcoin is not perfect and that it has a few issues that can be pretty big and it remains to be seen how they will develop but the obvious ones that oh so many have raised in these comments are not issues and it bothers me when people instead of doing their due diligence and research dismiss this technology just because of some preconceived notions.
I bought 1 bitcoin as an experiment and saw it almost double in value. I used it to buy 1 silver eagle. It was fun, but I'm not going all in.
I get the factors that make it attractive money:
PMs also provide all of the above (if you hold the phyzz, bitchez) and I don't need to worry about a power outage or "accidental" internet failure.
Having said that, I'm still very opened minded and welcome the viewpoints of the Bitcoinbugs. For now I'm long shovels and neighbors' back yards.
Well, an actual reasoned response!
Nice!
I was lucky enough to be taught that it's more important to find the right answer than to be right.
And a crucial lesson it is. God bless all who pass it along.
Rock on, my friend.
I'm not surprised by the reaction around here. You'd think people would be into a tool that allows them to give the federal reserve the big middle finger, but no, they'd rather hug their 401k's and pray and hope that the mobile DHS backscatter vans (and coming soon, drones) don't find their "boating accident" stash of gold.
Go ahead, honestly. Don't pay attention to this development. Bumble along, parsing Bernanke speeches and fretting over the near-zero interest rates, the wild gyrations of a stock market infested with HFT - all of it.
I don't need you to use this system. Its an anti-ponzi scheme. I don't WANT you to use the system, because I want to acquire as much anti-Fed 'ammo' as I can, before the world wakes up and says "Oh - our countries ARE screwing us blind with sovereign issued paper -- what is this bitcoin thing?". Because when that happens - and it will - you'll be doubly disgusted about all the media attention it will get.
In closing, go back to sleep - because anyone who thinks they'll get by on fiat currencies is dreaming.
"give the federal reserve the big middle finger" - nice!
Wait for a big publicity BitCoin hack. I'm sure the feds have a few in the magazine.
BTFD
"Unlike modern currency, which can be brought into existence at the whim of politicians or a central bank, leading to each note being devalued, the number of Bitcoins is governed by predictable mathematical algorithms."
Yeah? Well you can stick inflated, $100 Benny notes in there can't you? How is it insulated from inflation?
"Predictable mathematical algorithms" you can depend on since LTCM . . . puhleez.
It's hard to grasp for someone who doesn't understand encryption, and yet you rely on it every single day, when you visit a https webpage, when you do online banking or shopping not to mention the government, even the military relies on this technology that you think can't deliver for keeping their secrets.
Yeah, it sure must have a flaw somehow right?
Any encryption, anything online, anything technological and digital can be compromised because at the root of all of it are human beings.
". . . the number of Bitcoins is governed by predictable mathematical algorithms:"
This may actually mean something but it stinks of using (weak) math jargon to mystify. It contains no statment about encryption and, of course, says nothing about what the "predictable algorithms" do. In fact the phrase itself is comical . . . "predictable algorythms." A "predictable algorithms" would pretty much suck for encryption, wouldn't it?
Secondly, what does "encryption" do to prevent me from showing up with a wheelbarrow full of inflated but "real" Bennie Bucks and using them to inflate the supply of bitcoins currency?
If you really want to learn and aren't just trolling, here's a former MIT professor over at the online university Udacity who explains this in one of his lectures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdsS8jFVv2c&list=EC146831BEFADFE152&inde...
Thanks for the link. I sat through 10 minutes of those canape sized nuggets and saw nothing that addressed the questions I raised. Let me keep it simple: let's say my pay just went up 20% because of inflation. Correspondingly I convert 20% more money into bitcoins at the bitcoin ATM. How is bitcoin insulated from inflation? How does it determine the exchange rate USD/bitcoin. This has nothing to do with how encryption might frustrate hacked bitcoin e-counterfeiting.
The exchamge rate is what people are willing to pay for/part with their bitcoins for and depends on supply and demand. If more people want the finite number of bitcoins their price will be higher, if more people want to get rid of them then there are people wanting them the price will be lower.
That makes sense--it trades like a floating currency. How is new supply created? What governs/limits that?
The bitcoin protocol/algorithm (there's a few moving parts here) generates new coins by mining "blocks", which are rewarded with coins.
The rate of new blocks (and hence coins) are mined is limited by the network; as more miners show up on the network, a difficulty factor increases, making it harder to mine. The net result is that new coins are introduced at a fixed and (almost) constant average rate over time, with big changes that happen with reward "halving." (Up until late last year, finding a block was rewarded with 50 bitcoins, now it's 25 bitcoints.) The rules for all of this is defined and unchangable, and other peers on the network enforce the rules.
Would take some time to get comfortable with that--not saying it's unworkable; i just don't understand the meaning of "mining."