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Guest Post: Personal Incomes & The Decline Of The American Saver

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Submitted by Lance Roberts of StreetTalkLive,

 

 

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Sat, 03/02/2013 - 17:53 | 3294112 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

And there's no inflation, Ben told me... And IF there is inflation and that is a big IF... Inflation is good! Ask any Obamabot out there. If there's no inflation then it's deflation and a depression! Let the fed rob you and be happy about it! That's what good Americans do!

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 18:55 | 3294214 clara-to-market
clara-to-market's picture

What we have is the beginning of a feudal economy.

Scary stuff.

No shit.

http://www.angrysinner.blogspot.kr/2013/03/saturday.html

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 21:37 | 3294571 fourchan
fourchan's picture

4.00 gas this summer, go short consumers.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 01:37 | 3294585 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

when the american saver dis-saves (removes money from the bank), the situation in the 1930s is recreated

although, in the 30s, people dis-saved notes from an account and saved the physical in caches

now, people dis-save notes from an account and spend them on debt service and horsemeat

still, a bank run is a bank run as long as everybody's pulling out their notes. whatever the reason.

good thing there's a central bank to serve as a lender of last resort for solvent, but illiquid, banks

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 23:06 | 3294694 Law97
Law97's picture

Good thing the stock market doesn't need consumers.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 05:41 | 3294989 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

compute!

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 10:27 | 3295213 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

It only needs muppets.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 17:56 | 3294115 arkady
arkady's picture

Deregulation is responsible for more credit?  Really?  This is the kind of stuff that the Left loves to cling on to as if is somehow writing more sophisticated regulation can prevent Joe Consumer from borrowing as the Fed prints like a lunatic.   Gimme a break.

 

Yes it did change in the 1980s, there is a massive cyclical downturn in rates to keep the Greenspan new economy frmo chugging along - has precious little to do with regulation.   

Otherwise I do like the charts and a visual reminder of what we already know.   We are being fleeced. 

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 19:15 | 3294249 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

"Deregulation is responsible for more credit?  Really?"

Yeah, really. Why do you think they had such a hard-on for getting rid of Glass-Steagall and insuring that derivatives were not regulated?

What else happened in the 80s? Does the name "Silverado" mean anything to you? How about Garn-St Germain?

Explain how you'd end fractional reserve banking without having any regulations on the books.

You "conservative" chuckleheads sure are an amusing lot of Stockholm syndrome sufferers.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:09 | 3295812 arkady
arkady's picture

Anyone who thinks G-S was a good piece of legislation is beyond help.  Why don't you go ahead and slap never ending band-aids on top of state sponsored/backed banks and see what happens.  Oh wait, we already did - perhaps that is why we are imploding.

 

You end fractional lending by letting banks go under when they pyramid and make money a private issued concept instead of that sponsored by the Gov't.  It has been discussed extensively.  

 

Nothing more amusing than you lefties insult us, while screeching that we need more and more regulation.   How about letting the market do its job, nope, you won't stop until you centrally plan everything to death.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 17:55 | 3294117 tawdzilla
tawdzilla's picture

what is this concept "savings?"...never heard of it

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 20:08 | 3294217 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Savings is a reduction in the amount of money you borrow.  At least that's the definition of savings according to our benevolent leaders.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 18:06 | 3294119 Vincent Vega
Vincent Vega's picture

I just sent in my 2012 income tax. I am a K1 (general partner) so I get hit for both sides of SSI. My partners and I pay ourselves a monthly salary and bonus out profits at year end. Basically, the way I look at it, what I earn from Jan 1st until May 15th goes to Uncle Sam. Far and away the single largest monthly expense that I have is tax....far larger than all my other expenses combined. 

This article seems to sugest that savings rates must rise for the economy to grow. Perhaps that is a valid point. But for me personally, I will not be putting money in to the economy until I can keep more of what I earn.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 19:11 | 3294237 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

It's the new normal in Amerika, tax the rich (aka. business owners) until they go broke.  The socialists count your money like the 3 stooges did.  3 for you.... 1,2,3 for me.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 22:23 | 3294630 optimator
optimator's picture

Do you and your partners have company cars for your business use that are, of course, garaged at home to be safe?   Do you entertain for your business?  Do you have meetings away from your officer, such as Hawaii?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 01:18 | 3294852 spdrdr
spdrdr's picture

Your point being?

Spit it out, and let's debate.  It's Fight Club, you know...

 

 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 08:55 | 3295028 Vincent Vega
Vincent Vega's picture

No. We are a very small business (5 people). No company cars. No business trips. No entertainment. We are a very specialized boutique, per se. We don't even advertise. As I stated in my original post: We pay ourselves a monthly salary and at the end of the year we divide the profit and pay it out as bonus. It is very staightforward and simple. 

btw.....I live about eight miles from the office and I bike to work as often as weather allows. I drive a 2005 car. I brown bag my lunch. Any more snarky comments or questions?

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 17:59 | 3294123 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

save for what ???

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 18:16 | 3294150 Blotsky
Blotsky's picture

cognitive dissonance.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 18:31 | 3294169 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Hookers and blow obviously!

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 18:49 | 3294199 I am more equal...
I am more equal than others's picture

Hookers underperform and blow overrated.  Now the Ipad12, I'm saving up and standing in line at the Apple store now.  Damn, it cold here in Cleveland.....

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 08:15 | 3295059 bunnyswanson
bunnyswanson's picture

A rainy day.

Purple Rain baby - mandatory bitchez!  Soak it up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmKvUeIz44w Prince

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 18:03 | 3294131 davidsmith
davidsmith's picture

The next phase commences when middle income Americans do the math and come to the conclusion that the United States Government is out to kill them.  Then they will overthrow the government, as Blondie would say, "Not a minute too soon."

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 07:41 | 3295044 PeeramidIdeologies
PeeramidIdeologies's picture

So just to clarify, the government is an individual entity? I was always under the impression that they were bought and payed for, on the federal level, by big bis, and corps., and then on the state level by local interests and who ever else can afford kick backs, err I mean contributions.
If we're going to start hanging signs around people's necks lets make sure we get the facts strait...

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 18:15 | 3294148 oddjob
oddjob's picture

Record ASE sales?, people are saving, just not in narcobux.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 18:52 | 3294209 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

When you get 0.01% in interest on paper $ savings  - with REAL inflation running at 3 times the 'official goal' of 2%, there is absolutely NO incentive to SAVE. 

Hell... you're best off getting as far in debt as possible.  

I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea to mortgage yourself to the hilt (IF you can get anyone to loan you any $) convert the $ to hard assets, bury them and find a nice cave to hide in for the next decade.   Might not even have to pay back the $ if the melt down is bad enough - otherwise cash in a fraction of the hard assets to pay off the debt and then go pick up some property and other hard assets on the cheap 

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 22:19 | 3294619 optimator
optimator's picture

And that's exactly what Benny Boy wants you to do, buy it now before the price goes up again, it'll fuel the economy.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 18:24 | 3294157 newworldorder
newworldorder's picture

Where to start? For the statistically inclined - I have no "data" but here are some comments.

- There has to be real income generated in order to save wealth. Current single family earners, and workers in their 20's, 30's and even 40's find it difficult to save. Most spend what they earn. Without saved income you cannot invest.

- Double earning families where couples can earn 100k plus a year may start to save. Under that number, most fall into the same spend as your earn youth category.

- Probability of job loss for one family member is much higher than previous generations. These job losses are often at the "whim" of corporations and last a long time, wiping out savings.

- Workers for the most part have to fund their own retirements - 401k, IRA, etc. Traditional pensions have been reduced or are mostly gone.

- Education costs have gone through "through the roof."

 

Boomers may be the last generation to experience the concept of savings for a "rainy day." The generations after them are essentially spending what they make. The poor and the jobless have been confined to a subsistence lifestyle of poverty level government assistance with no hope of getting out of it.

 

These are the standards we have today. Given the current state fo spending, debt, US and world economies, it will be a slow grind to provide improvements. We need a lot of economic growth and a sudden improvement in the unproductive portion of our population.

 

The "half full glass" scenario says, long term maybe. The "half empty glass" scenario says, we don't have a chance of the downward spiral reversing.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 19:02 | 3294221 The Heart
The Heart's picture

"The "half full glass" scenario says, long term maybe. The "half empty glass" scenario says, we don't have a chance of the downward spiral reversing."

Thank you.

But what if the babylonians stopped spending all the money they do to maintain and supply over 900 military bases all over the world, and also stopped supporting those host countries with free money for them to buy weapons from those who paid off the govt shills to continue the endless war for profits charade?

 

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 19:06 | 3294231 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

The problem is that SAVING is asking to get punished.  

We did what you were supposed to do.  Waited to have kids, saved for heir education, aved up and worked hard to buy a house, have lived below our means.  We also got lucky via a decent employer who actually believed in sharing profits with employees.

BUT

We ended up paying full freight for our kids college (they'll get out without any debt but DAMN, we could've saved a fortune by NOT having any money put aside and going for financial aid). 

The taxes on our house have more than tripled - and are now way more than the mortgage payments.  Why buy a wreck and fix it up?  

Our retiremnet savings are not even keeping pace with inflation and may get confiscated anyway.  Why save since we'll probably drop dead from overwork not long after hitting 65.

As for saving - there are NO safe places to invest (even Au and Ag are subject to govt's whims) and it seems like most 'investments' are simply schemes to take what you have saved.

We're well off enough to pay the absolute MAXIMUM in taxes - while the really well off pay accountants and attorneys and pay far less percentage wise (and even amount wise) than we do.  

 

Would've been far easier to work less and sleaze by - wouldn't have made much of a differnce financially.  And THAT is the bigger problem.  

You're PUNISHED for working hard, saving and living withing your means keeping debt to a minimum. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 10:08 | 3295172 Dalmatian
Dalmatian's picture

I know exactly what you mean CynicalSkeptic!  I waited and waited to have kids until I felt financially ahead, and the day never came - I can no longer have kids without medical intervention, and I'm not paying for IVF treatments.  A couple months ago I pulled out 60,000 dollars out of the stock market to pay off my mortgage - that felt good to pay stupid BofA off!  And it felt good to pull that money out of the artificaially inflated market too.

I'm in your position...I don't know what to do with my extra cash.  I have 12,000 dollars in my checking acct. just sitting there.  I suppose it's good to have emergency cash, but it aint working for me either' it's not growing...  I was thinking when the market collapses badly to throw in this cash.  It could be this year or next.  If it's next year I may have 20,000 dollars saved up to throw in the market.  Think it's a good idea?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 10:23 | 3295205 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

dal, cash in a checking account? take it out and save it at home, 20,000 to invest buy gold or silver..advice not to get rich just to keep what you got, trusting your bank is like a frog asking a snake whats for dinner.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 11:24 | 3295276 Dalmatian
Dalmatian's picture

Overmedicated, 

But will there really be a need for gold and silver later?  I know these assets are probably the best bet, but the cash is good to have in case of emergency too; cash is king - like they say. 

If I do buy bars of gold and silver do I stack them in my basement?  Plus, isn't gold really high in price right now?  I don't want to buy when things are high.

Should I pull out my money out of checking acct. and just hide the 12,000 dollars in envelopes in my house somewhere?

If I sound dumb, please don't bash me...these are real questions I have though. 

How about the stock market in Canada?  Maybe put money there?  I wish I had a lot more cash so I can buy a chunk of farmland....

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 12:49 | 3295444 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

dal, with what liquidity you stated you have, I stand by what I do and what I advised..the question of a need for gold and silver is some what confused..name a time in history when gold or silver did not retain value. the amount of money you are talking your stacking of gold or silver is not a problem a shoe box will be too big. Yes on checking I only leave what is needed to cover monthly bills, and yes put the money in the shoe box with your PM's it all will fit.

one thing you must understand your part of the national debt makes what little you have much less..sad but we are all in it, FRN's are debt not money.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 11:30 | 3295298 Lordflin
Lordflin's picture

Overmed is correct... No exposure to the banks beyond what is necessary... Silver is cheap now... Could get a bit cheaper, but not much . Problem is that you will pay a stiff premium... More for some forms, such as Eagles, less for others such as bars... Junk silver, US silver coins minted before 1965, use to go for spot, but they are becoming harder to find.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 11:59 | 3295349 Dalmatian
Dalmatian's picture

Lordflin,

Where do I buy silver bars?  And in the future, where do I sell them if I want the cash or want the profit?  You obviously wouldn't sell them just anywhere where the place takes a big cut themselves; like those stupid Cash for Gold places.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 13:09 | 3295482 Lordflin
Lordflin's picture

I personally have dealt with Gainsville Coins for years... Found their prices competitive and their delivery good... Another ZH poster seemed to prefer Provident Metals... I have not taken a look at them, but would suggest you do a comparison. As to reselling... I would not by physical to trade... Not any time soon... You will always get clipped on the premium... Metals traders make their profit on the spread. If you need to sell look for reputable bullion dealers in your area... Investigate anyone you do business with... There are lots of ripoffs and fly by nights.

PMs are a store of value... They are an investment only in the sense that 1) many of us believe their value has been artificially suppressed 2) You will still have money when others find the paper they are holding to be worthless... Or something near to worthless. You will also find that more and more folks are willing to barter goods and services for bullion.

Whatever you do stay away from collectables...

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 13:48 | 3295547 Dalmatian
Dalmatian's picture

Lordflin,

What is wrong US silver coins made berfore 1965?

What about Morgan dollars from the 30s and 40s?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 10:41 | 3295235 PAWNMAN
PAWNMAN's picture

Punishing success and rewarding failure. Just another sign that the Empire is dying. I feel your pain brother.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 19:14 | 3294239 dolph9
dolph9's picture

If the boom of the 80s and beyond was a phenomenon of improvement from the top down, then the ongoing collapse since 2008 is a phenomenon of impoverishment from the bottom up.

You work, but your money is transferred first to the government and then to whomever the government favors.  You find yourself with less money.  So you cut back on expenditures.  As you cut back on expenditures, businesses raise prices even more and government raises taxes to make up for losses.

It's a no win game.  The solution is real collapse (as in allowing genuine bankruptcy and the unprofitable sectors, cities, and people to die, is unpalatable to the establishment, as their power would also wane).

We are all "paying" for each other now.  We are all supporting each other.  Global financial capitalism has morphed into global socialism with nary a peep.

The solution is to go Galt, but even that has limits.  What are you going to do...move to a cabin without electricity?  How are you going to survive?

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 23:06 | 3294697 Vooter
Vooter's picture

Steal.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 19:38 | 3296174 Joy on Maui
Joy on Maui's picture

Yup.   Cynical as it is, this is another version of "If you can't beat them, join them."

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 19:07 | 3294233 bornlastnight
bornlastnight's picture

Tyler, if you're trying to piss me off.....well.....you did.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 19:14 | 3294247 alfbell
alfbell's picture

 

 

The downstats (non-producers) are rewarded, the upstats (producers/savers) are punished. That's what's been going on for decades and decades. It is the formula for the collapse of the country, hastened along by government corruption and unworkable "isms" (fascism, socialism, communism, capitalism).

Make a lot of USD while you can... have free and clear income properties and small businesses... own a modest home free and clear (with off the grid and food production potentials)... have some gold and silver... hope for the best and muddle through.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 10:19 | 3295198 Accounting101
Accounting101's picture

Stop the Galtist bullshit! I am amazed that some of you economic illiterates feel the need to genuflect at the alter of an old Russian hag who was comically inconsequential.

You are all producers and takers! Grow up and stop helping in the destruction our democracy.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 10:26 | 3295212 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

mr 101  what do you suggest? sending money to any D pol to continue forward?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 11:43 | 3295318 Accounting101
Accounting101's picture

What the hell does sending money to a D pol have to do with this? Is that what I advocated? Now you are practicing tribal politics and refusing to think about things for longer than two seconds.

If you voted for any of the two party candidates (yes, Paul Ryan is a crony capitalist just like Obama) you helped helped to destroy our democracy. There is no such thing as less government. The conflict is and will always remain about who the government serves.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 12:57 | 3295459 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

mr not gault acc 101...who the .gov serves you say, so how does withholding economic activity affect that? you need a little explaining, see many here on ZH want to stop feeding the monster in DC..do you think we are supporting D OR R then you reading comprehension is lacking..bring yourself up to speed please.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 19:49 | 3294328 ArmyofOne
ArmyofOne's picture

Fuck saving.  Its so elitist.

 

 

Livin la vida loca,

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p47fEXGabaY

 

Party on bitchez

 

 

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 20:09 | 3294387 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Well when you put it like that I'd say its time to start building a bomb shelter.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 20:17 | 3294414 Smegley Wanxalot
Smegley Wanxalot's picture

Savings ain't no longa needed seein'z how Social Security iz guaranteed!

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 20:26 | 3294433 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

A few huge megayachts and private luxury A380s will more than make up for the decline of the middle class in the the GDP calculations.

 

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 20:26 | 3294434 alfbell
alfbell's picture

Long slow death. Just like the Roman Empire. Deja vu all over again.

Definitely prudent to be the ant and not the grasshopper at this time. That hard, long Winter is going to show up one of these years.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 22:40 | 3294654 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

it'll be quick and very painful-the US is a more tightly coiled spring.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 21:08 | 3294511 Hongcha
Hongcha's picture

This looks like the sundry charts of a cancer patient; or of a body being consumed by parasites.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 21:20 | 3294530 donethat
donethat's picture

Immoral politicians preaching morals to us.

 

Sad

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 22:07 | 3294603 CuriousPasserby
CuriousPasserby's picture

The thing is, all my extra cash, every week, every month, every bonus, I use to buy silver or gold. I'm not putting anything into my 0% savngs account. So I show up as not saving. But I'm not just consuming, I'm stacking.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 22:11 | 3294610 Tombstone
Tombstone's picture

Not to worry....CNBC is guiding the markets higher with the new all-time-high-in -the-Dow report every 5 minutes.  This will suck in the last of the so-called dumb money savings.  Then, as a new high is breached by a few points, the markets topple, and more and more people will be admitted to the welfare rolls and the Marxists will be overjoyed that their plan to destroy capitalism and wealth is succeeding.  Throw is some higher taxes and a national sales tax, and like magic we get to apply for a position in the European Kommunist Union.  Slaves, rejoice!

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 23:03 | 3294688 SubjectivObject
SubjectivObject's picture

Careless money managed for all the dumb trust.

Sat, 03/02/2013 - 23:40 | 3294745 Northern Lights
Northern Lights's picture

With the way inflation is killing money, it's a total disincentive to save right now.

Speaking for myself, unfortunately, I am one of the few savers. 

Problem is, there's not a whole lot out there for me to sock it into.

I already have quite a bit of gold.

Don't want to invest in stocks cause the markets' inflated.

Don't want to buy a house because up here the prices are ridiculously high. So high a correction is starting to come about so I wouldn't get in now.

All else considered, I am not in debt and plan to stay that way as long as possible.  It helps me sleep at night.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 02:32 | 3294910 bnbdnb
bnbdnb's picture

I don't save. I buy expensive things and give them to my kids and relatives.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 03:13 | 3294919 Lordflin
Lordflin's picture

PMs are savings... And there is little question that deregulation led to a massive increase in leverage throughout the economy... a bit of a surprise to find that opinion puts me on the left side of the political spectrum... Was accused of that last year when I suggested that these wars we are fighting were perhaps less than appropriate. On the other hand, a colleague once suggested I was to the right of Ghengis Khan... Although, personally, given at least a perceived bent towards collectivism, I would venture to say that Mr. Khan was something of a left winger himself.

In any event I suspect that most of us can agree that the printing of money is robbery as surely as if we were held up at the point of gun... Actually, we have been... Are...

Sadly, most of the country hasn't a clue... And with the attention span of toddlers it does not seem they are due any time soon.

And just so there is no misconception... Deregulation is a big word...
Covers allot of territory... much, if not most regulation is absolutely destructive... especially in so much as it favors massive corporations over
small business and start ups... But the damage done by overturning Glass Steagall was monumental... And led directly to TBTF.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 10:28 | 3295215 Acet
Acet's picture

Far too many people are one-dimensional when it comes to politics: in their limited worldview everything is either left-wing or right-wing.

In reality there are at least two axis: the left/right wing one and the authoritarian-liberal one and they are pretty much orthogonal to each other, in that being left- or right-wing is quite independent of supporting authoritarianism (aka centralism) versus supporting liberalism.

Unfortunately, in the US the two main parties have managed to corner the political speach into a one dimensional line, much to the loss of most Americans, be they left- or right-wing, who have seen the system quickly move towards authoritarianism even while with the fake left-vs-right discourse convinced them that they had a real choice and real political influence.

Unsurprisingly, for me as continental European, a lot of the political speach here in ZH sounds shockingly naive and simplistic.

 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 11:48 | 3295331 Lordflin
Lordflin's picture

I agree that most folks are one dimensional thinkers... On the other hand, I had not realized that Europeans were immune from this...

I might suggest to you that despite the obvious advantages of a European birthright, ie culture, sophistication, wisdom and at least a 20 point edge in IQ over those of us with the misfortune of having been born across the pond... It could just be that Europeans at large struggle to understand American politics...

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 13:38 | 3295533 Acet
Acet's picture

It's more to do with the small detail that there is no such thing as a duopoly of power in Europe: there is no such thing as the Democrats or the Republicans, simply because there are too many nations each having their own top parties (and some, by virtue of having a real democratic system with proportional vote, don't even have any top parties) and those parties would never, ever, ever merge (even when they share ideologies, they still have far too many differences due to cultural factors).

While at a local level, in many European countries what you see is indeed very similar to the US system (though on a much smaller scale), across Europe there are so many different systems, cultures and situations that there is no political hegemony. Once one pokes one's head outside one's country's political environment, it's hard not to wake up to the manipulation of political speach going on in one's country. Such effect applies just as much to American nationals as to any others, it's just that, thanks to its size, the USA is far more inwards facing and navel-gazing than most European nations hence there are far fewer opportunities for people in the US to look out with an open mind and wake-up.

This diversity is both Europe's weakness (in that even with the EU there still is no single all powerfull "administration" that can take decisions for all) and its strength. which is why in Europe you just saw the overwelming vote for Grillo in Italy and the approval in Switzerland by referendum of a proposition to limit fat-cat pay, while the US continues to sink (in an ever increasing shower of propaganda), all the while the orchestra of both Democrats and Republicans still plays the same old tune.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:17 | 3295584 Lordflin
Lordflin's picture

Yes, I got that part Acet... it was the ZH posters are naive... in fact, shockingly naive... although I don't follow how you could be shocked and unsurprised at the same time... part that I drew exception too... btw... My wife is English... we met nine years ago and she has been in the country seven years. Despite something of a common heritage... and my family has been in this country for four hundred years... I have found our cultures widely divergent in innumerable ways. Don't get me wrong... it has been both a source of pleasure and education... but she had to work hard to begin to unravel this society in ways that made sense to her, and in return has introduced me to a very differnent world.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:35 | 3296316 Acet
Acet's picture

Many are are naive, others are not.

The easiest ones to spot are the staunch Red/Blue team defenders.

There's also the one's parroting the Obama-is-a-muslim (hardly a well thought argument) bull that just makes them look like idiots when what they should be talking about is the man's record in power (which, frankly, is abysmal).

The there are the ones making uninformed statements about Europe and the EU.

---

One the other hand, there are also a lot of people here that actually think about things, rather than just parrot again and again the usual propaganda.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 01:55 | 3297020 Lordflin
Lordflin's picture

The red team/ blue team mentality, as you put it, is indeed irksome... but I encounter relatively less of that here... that is on the ZH website... On the other hand I suspect such thinking to be fundamental to human design... Few think outside their own box... Not withstanding the fact that a parliamentary system gives rise to more 'teams'. As to difficulty understanding the EU... We are as handicapped in understanding Europe as Europe is in understanding us... Stereotyping and caricature are equally present on both sides of the pond.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 08:51 | 3295084 PeeramidIdeologies
PeeramidIdeologies's picture

Declining wages... Pft can't we just call it what is? Declining investment potential. Isn't that how it is seen. There is no ROI left in North America, so we'll squeeze it out of our employees, when that is finished we'll start firing them. As long as the bottom line shows a pluser!
Pathetic.
What's worse is what happens at the bottom, I mean "attractive entry point"...
Madness I say...

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 10:17 | 3295190 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

Really what do we need to consume? We all have tonnes of superfluos crap in our house, no need for more. And everyone is maxed out on their credit cards and has less disposable income than ever. No wonder even bottomfeeders such as Wallmart are losing customers.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 10:42 | 3295236 Sigep0612
Sigep0612's picture

 Using economic history as a basis to determine the success or failure of our current economy is a waste of time.    The model is broken.  The entire globe is awash in debt.  Debt fuled growh provided the illusion of prosperity.   

Over 50% of our population can't figure out 10% of 100 but student loan debt is over $1Trillion.   Those of us debating this on ZH at least have some intelligence.   When Europe (i.e. France ) implodes and the 47% in America create "civil disobedience" reality kicks in and the average joe will comprenend how insane the past 50 years of spending has been.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 11:01 | 3295251 Its_the_economy...
Its_the_economy_stupid's picture

Was in the local superwalmart this past friday at 3pm, like i am every friday at 3pm, with my mom buying catfood, like we do every friday at 3pm. The isles were empty, alarmingly so. Now granted, it was 2 days before the ss checks drop, but i noticed it the previous friday as well. i asked the cashier about it, she said wait till 5 pm. but i have been in that store every friday at 3pm, and there has been no need to wait till 5 pm for it to get crowded. looked bad, real bad.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 11:55 | 3295341 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

I too, share you observation.

It would be interesting to see the "real time" sales data from various store around the country, and not just Wall-mart but other stores like Target, Best Buy, Gander Mountain, etc. 

Also, compare that to grocery stores, my observation is that most of Wall-mart's business is food stuff these days.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 11:15 | 3295267 giggler123
giggler123's picture

This smells to me to be anal leakage

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:40 | 3295637 TalkToLind
TalkToLind's picture

The American saver is still saving.  Only he's using a somewhat barbaric asset class for his savings that isn't tracked on these charts.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:28 | 3295848 thewayitis
thewayitis's picture

Just say it ........GOLD AND SILVER. Hardly barbaric.  But its only 1% of world population....Where are the rest???  hahahaha

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:47 | 3295883 Curtis LeMay
Curtis LeMay's picture

Households with median incomes can only afford average new car price in one of America's 25 largest cities

http://www.autoblog.com/

Mar 3rd 2013

Thanks Obama! Thanks Ben! Thanks Timmy! With a special thanks Clinton and Barney Frank!

 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:45 | 3296334 suckerfishzilla
suckerfishzilla's picture

On a long enough timeline everyone's savings rate drops to zero.

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