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Tax Changes Drive Surge In Americans Renouncing Citizenship

Tyler Durden's picture


We are well aware of the infamous French dramatics as the wealthy flee the country over the changing tax structure but few know that Americans renouncing citizenship has tripled in the last few years. As The Telegraph reports, many decide to give up citizenship after tiring of the lengthy US tax return process. Since US tax laws changed in 2008 (all American citizens are required to file a tax return on their world-wide income - even if they have not visited the US for decades), the number of 'renunciations' has risen from 231 per year to 1,781. The process of immigration can be costly (due to the actual tax and legal preparation) but "actually giving up your citizenship is dead easy - once you have an appointment with a consular official, it takes a matter of minutes." One London-based lawyer (where it appears a lot of Americans are immigrating - the 2011 census found 177,185 people living in England and Wales were born in the US) adds that the "US Embassy in London has responded to that demand by streamlining the process."


Via The Telegraph,

London-based American lawyers, who specialize in tax and immigration, report a threefold increase over the last five years in the number of American citizens who are giving up their citizenship - a process known as “renunciation”.


Across the world 1,781 Americans renounced their citizenship in 2011 compared with just 231 in 2008, when US tax laws changed, although it remains unknown how many are adopting British rather than any other nationality.


Many decide to give up their American citizenship after tiring of the lengthy US tax return process, which requires them to pay tax on their total income regardless of where they live.


“There’s no question that the number of people renouncing their US citizenship is increasing,” said Diane Gelon, a US tax and immigration lawyer based in London.




The process can be costly. Applicants must complete five years’ of US tax returns, which can cost £1,000 a year if professional help is obtained, plus another £2,500 for legal assistance with the immigration process, excluding VAT.


Even if a US citizen earns all their income in Britain they are liable for tax in their home country which can lead to unusual tax situations arising, said Ms Gelon.


For example, US citizens are expected to pay capital gains tax to the US government if they sell a property in Britain which is their main residence, even though a similar tax is not imposed by the British Inland Revenue.


The US rules make concessions for tax paid overseas but there is still a risk that their citizens will be hit with a large tax bill, she added.


“Actually giving up your citizenship is dead easy - once you have an appointment with a consular official it takes a matter of minutes.




“It can be an emotional thing, to give up one’s citizenship.




The US Embassy in London has responded to that demand - and quite a long queue for renunciation appointments - by streamlining the process.




The 2011 census found 177,185 people living in England and Wales were born in the US.


All American citizens are required to file a tax return on their world-wide income. The rule applies even if they have not visited the US for decades.


The US Internal Revenue Service is likely to discover tax returns have been missed in a number of different scenarios.




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Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:13 | 3295580 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Typo – title should read "Renouncing"

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:23 | 3295596 true brain
true brain's picture

Going from US citizen to British citizen is similar to going from level 7 of hell to level 8 of hell; only the most discerning can tell the difference.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:43 | 3295628 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

You get the privilege of curtsying to the queen and supporting the royal moochers for life.  And horsemeat in your lasagna. But you avoid Piers Morgan who has been exported to America.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:59 | 3295676 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Terrible weather, terrible food and most of the time the scenery is so exotic it looks just like you're in Pakistan... What's not to like?


[Just go Galt, location is irrelevant!]

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:17 | 3295718 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

[Just go Galt, location is irrelevant!]


One can reduce a tax burden a lot more through movement within the U.S., and by reducing one's dependence on the system as much as possible.  Live outside of city limits in many cases reduces your property tax burden.  Growing food, barter, buying used tools or goods from garage sales.  Foregoing spending on things you never needed.  Many ways to reduce sales tax burden by not setting foot in retail store in the first place.  (So many focus on income taxes when there are other taxes that can be avoided as well).

You have to be in the top .1% for renouncing citizenship to really pay off.  And the risks are high, being a foreigner with money to steal, at a time when nations are looking for wealth to steal from its subjects, and at a time when nationalist attitudes are growing.  Wouldn't want to be a foreigner on the wrong side of a border when wars start breaking out.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:39 | 3295870 Texas Ginslinger
Texas Ginslinger's picture

Dead easy..??

Sure, if you have no assets;

"The Heroes act tightens the expatriation rules. U.S. citizens and long-term U.S. residents are subject to tax on their worldwide income. Taxpayers can avoid taxes by renouncing their U.S. citizenship or terminating their residence. The Act tightens the expatriation rules to ensure that certain high net-worth taxpayers can't renounce their U.S. citizenship or terminate their U.S. residency in order to avoid U.S. taxes. Under this provision, high net-worth individuals are treated as if they sold all of their property for its fair market value on the day before they expatriate or terminate their residency. Gain is recognized to the extent that the aggregate gain recognized exceeds $600,000 (which will be adjusted for cost of living in the future). The provision, which applies for those who relinquish U.S. citizenship or terminate their U.S. residency on or after the enactment date, is estimated to raise $411 million over 10 years. "




Sun, 03/03/2013 - 19:11 | 3296131 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

I'm thinking of renouncing my 'citizenship' and then just staying in the country 'illegally' like millions of others.  I'll OD on the spray on tan, take some Spanish courses, dye my hair black, etc. If I ever have the need, I can take advantage of all the 'freebies' like healthcare, EBT, etc., etc., and if I do have to pay taxes, pay it into a 'dead' SS account.  I'll never get deported, never worry about being audited, and just say 'No habla' if every questioned by the 3-letter cartels...Andele!

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 19:18 | 3296137 akak
akak's picture

While we're all talking about renouncing citizenship here, I wish we could convince AnAnonymystic to renounce his self-created "US 'american' Citizenism" already.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 19:35 | 3296166 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Amen Ak, I have enough problems with the neighbors dogs shitting on the side of my driveway...

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:22 | 3296291 akak
akak's picture

At least your dog is the one doing the shitting .... not the thing being shat out!

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 23:16 | 3296657 philipat
philipat's picture

"Going from US citizen to British citizen is similar to going from level 7 of hell to level 8 of hell; only the most discerning can tell the difference."

Not really. Part of the problem is that The US alone taxes its citizens even if they are non-resident, so making no demands upon the services those taxes pay. For all other major Nations, including The UK, it is possible to become "Non-resident" for the purposes of taxation, a process which typically takes 1-2 years.

And whilst the process of surrendering US Nationality may be easy, it can also be costly. I understand that upon surrendering US citizenship, the "Exit Tax" levied is extremely onerous. The IRS firstly assesses the equivalent of a Capital Gains Tax on all assets as if they had been sold at the time of surrendering Nationality. Then, it also assesses an Estate Tax on the balance, treating the surrender of Nationality the same as "Death".

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 19:42 | 3296183 batz
batz's picture



Just in case you are thinking of renouncing and returning illegally, brush up on DHS immigration checkpoint refusals here. 

From these are Americans being stopped 20-50mi from the border by random DHS checkpoints:


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:35 | 3295862 W74
W74's picture

I have no problem with horsemeat as long as I know about it, but the demographic shifts and economic mooching (they correlate) are troubling signs.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:44 | 3295879 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Obummer's Amerika is ***cked-ed. It is done - stick a fork in it.

If Americans renounced then there are better countries in Europe than the UK.  I feel sorry for good Americans but the retards love being brainwashed and contrlled by TV and Hollywood.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:36 | 3296064 Crusader79
Crusader79's picture

If only we could return to those halcyon days of 2008 when American rivers were running with chocolate.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 12:08 | 3297864 Freddie
Freddie's picture

It was unicorns and gumdrops compared to this shit.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:44 | 3295646 CH1
CH1's picture

Going from US citizen to British citizen is similar to going from level 7 of hell to level 8 of hell

Not really. The UK does not claim a cut of world-wide income.

So, if you renounce US ownership, and structure your affairs sensibly, you can avoid a LOT of tax-theft.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:22 | 3295729 ziggy59
ziggy59's picture

Not yet.. Wind is changing globally... The elite know they are phucked unless they screw the peons now, again, for the umpteenth time

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:46 | 3295762 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

The UK as is most other nations, taxes overseas income at their rates. Most nations have a double taxation exclusion. So if you give up your US citizen ship and get taxed in the US for income made in the US, then your UK tax rate would be reduced. That is SOP for most countries.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 17:09 | 3295922 Cull Morgan
Cull Morgan's picture

You're dead wrong on this one. Almost no other countries claim a right to tax their citizens' foreign income. From the top of my head, only North Korea and Eritrea join the US in this exclusive club.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 17:38 | 3295968 laomei
laomei's picture

Not even North Korea does that.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:54 | 3296354 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

But New Zealand does.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 23:58 | 3299914 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

New Zealand?? Taxing non-resident Kiwi's?  Not to my knowledge. It would be extremely counter-productive for a country that wants to attract qualified immigrants.


The Philippines, yes. That country has copied its former colonial master.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 23:39 | 3296796 newengland
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Instead, North Korea starves its people, and China makes its people into $ a day wage slaves for iPhone.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:19 | 3296026 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

This is true as a rule. But here's what's really important. No countries other than the U.S. have the military and economic means to enforce their claims on their citizens' foreign income. However, this could change if an international agreement is put in place. It goes without saying the U.S. would have to be part of such a compact for it to be effective.

I expect this to happen if/when things get bad enough. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 23:38 | 3296792 newengland
newengland's picture

U.S. citizens abroad only pay tax to the U.S if they exceed a certain amount which puts them in the bracket of...politicians.

Why do you think that tax wise guy politicos and their lobbyists decide tax bands at home and abroad? In order to evade it.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 03:58 | 3297114 laomei
laomei's picture

Entirely untrue.  As a permanent resident I can easily freelance all I want here and social insurance it entirely optional and can be bought in at whatever level I feel like, or not at all.  Reporting any of this however, incurs FICA taxes as well as self-employment taxes.  US Person employer = FICA, regardless of where in the world.  Unless the US signed a treaty waiving it, and most countries have no such treaty.  Unearned income of any kind have no "certain amount" for exemption either, regardless if they are tax free or not.  Pure double taxation.  The only possible way to reduce the taxes is to claim foreign tax credits, however that removes the ability to claim the Foreign earned income tax.  All other tax credits are reliant on residing within the US, and as such are unable to be claimed.... yet, they seem to believe that we need to pay for some reason.  Furthermore, there are already efforts being made to remove the FEIE entirely, claiming it is a "loophole".


The best part of it, is that the exempt amount is linked to the USD, which means as the us is playing the "cheap dollar" policy in their currency manipulation, it impacts expats rather harshly, as suddenly, they are deemed to be earning more, regardless of that having any basis in reality.  In quite a few countries with high taxes and social safety nets, that FEIE is acutally quite pathetic.  And just to make it ever so much hilarious, if you dare to earn $100k a year in a foreign country (lower than the total FEIE amount by the way) and renounce, you are automatically considered to be renouncing for "tax purposes" and then you're just fucked.  No appeals process either.  There's your reward for even bothering to be honest about anything.  No refund on FICA contributions either by the way.  Oh and if you happen to have assets, they want an exit tax on those as well.


Not even going to get into the hilarious FATCA crap which is demanding that all foreign banks report everything they have on US Persons to the IRS and spend hilarious amounts of money on US-licensed systems to do it.  It's only causing banks to dump all the US Persons they have as customers and making it increasingly difficult for expats to live a normal life.  Of course, US-HQ'd banks abroad are exempt from this requirement, as apparently they gleefully violate all secrecy laws in the countries they are established in and throw everything to the USG to use as they desire.


You really do have an absolutely disgusting system and it's abhorant that anyone pays any taxes to support this vile behavior.  Not to mention the acts of state-terrorism being carried out which only make your life ever more difficult.  Yep, great things to pay taxes for.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:02 | 3295799 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

  The UK does not claim a cut of world-wide income.

Neither does the US . . . but of course that only applies to corporation-people, not people-people. 

Maybe us people-people should hire one of those lobbyist guys.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:50 | 3295656 joego1
joego1's picture

I think when the SHTF the governments will have problems tracking/taxing people. They will be more concerned about saving their asses from the hoards. Come back when it's over and tell them you have been lost in a canoe accident for 5 years.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:17 | 3295586 MachineMan
MachineMan's picture

Why move to Britain, Is there Tax System any better? 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:31 | 3295609 Freedumb
Freedumb's picture

I would say its better. No citizenship basis taxation (so you won't generally be taxed on ordinary income earned in a country outside of the UK while resident outside of the UK). Only the US continues its policy of citizenship basis taxation, apparently on the absurd logic that because the US is such a world power, Americans will continue to use US government services regardless of where they reside (*cough*bullshit*hmrmmm).

Also UK citizenship gets you streamlined access to work/reside in a whole assortment of tax havens aka HK, Caymans, BVI, Bermuda, etc. Plus EU access. And banks are increasingly trying to get rid of any US depositors/account holders because by 2014, when you have US citizen / US "Person" customers, and you screw up some element of complying with FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, straight out of Orwell's worst nightmares), your bank is going to be subject to insane penalties.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:39 | 3295631 EmileLargo
EmileLargo's picture

Agree 100 percent. I am British and happily living in a tax haven and HMRC does not bother me. How long this will continue, however, is an open question. 

Incidentally, the French are thinking of adapting the American system. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:59 | 3295674 toady
toady's picture

I remember all those 60' & 70'a British rockers spending a year out-of-country after a platinum album dropped

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:41 | 3295871 PhilB
PhilB's picture

Where did you hear such nonsense? Neither France nor any other country is moving towards a citizenship based taxation system like the US.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:44 | 3295645 akak
akak's picture


And banks are increasingly trying to get rid of any US depositors/account holders because by 2014, when you have US citizen / US "Person" customers, and you screw up some element of complying with FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, straight out of Orwell's worst nightmares), your bank is going to be subject to insane penalties.


I have been reading about this repeatedly, and yet I still have to wonder: when did US laws become applicable worldwide?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:46 | 3295652 CH1
CH1's picture

when did US laws become applicable worldwide?

When dollar hedgemony allowed them to become the greatest economic bully of all time.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:12 | 3295701 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Advancements in technology helped a bunch too..........

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:38 | 3295751 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

we don't seem to be acting the "Warsaw Pact" role well. sure...the results appear to be the same...but this still doesn't have the feel of "Budapest, 1956." Or does it? Anywho my question is "since when did Federal Constitutional interpretation or lack there of triumph US State law?" i mean if you have to say "all we need is to obviate the need for a Judicial Branch and everything will be fine" then aren't we all in a world of hurt? "WHO will extinguish those debts" comes to mind "when the market fails to."
hmmmm. interesting. "hears cases around title of lands etc." funny, i don't recall this court laying claim to any "titling crisis" based on the "robo signing scandal." yet clearly they have both the expertise and the jurisdiction. "As with the markets we won't bother with the clearing of the legal matters either"? really? "under what...or WHO'S authority" i would ask. is there some "national security directive" the world needs to made aware of? something that says "the existence of contracts themselves is to be determined at a later date"? or are we all operating under ye olde "they have my property and i want it back now" standard? sure "the Judiciary Branch is laughably small in America." But one could argue "that's because people's rights are/used to be enforced/matter." In the absence of any legal basis for....stealing for lack of a better word...aren't we simply opening the Pandora's Box of "all those other authorities who claim that right" as well? i mean "what do we steal once we laid claim and taken everything" comes to mind. "here's a guy who owned 4 million acres of land...but died unable to regain his fortune cuz he couldn't sell his land fast enough." 4 cents an acre doesn't sound all that bad. i'll take ten! hmm. go figure. "what do we want! a trillion dollars! when do we want it? now!" doesn't ring a bell in ye olde Vietnam war protest years. "they got it though" didn't they...

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:49 | 3295655 W74
W74's picture

I have no idea how or why banks that have hundreds of years of reputation built around secrecy, why they would suddenly report to the US.  What sort of blackmail was strong enough to get them to do that en masse?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:10 | 3295696 CH1
CH1's picture

What sort of blackmail was strong enough to get them to do that en masse?

No ratting out customers and you are cut off from ALL US banks - through which are processed ALL dollars.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:19 | 3295724 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Actually I believe the problem is that many foreign banks have satellite banks in the U.S. If even one bank is located on U.S. soil then the whole banking system of that company comes under the banking laws of the U.S. and thus can be fined.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:29 | 3295849 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Correct.  That's why, for example, HSBC has eliminated virtually all its US retail banking (branches) and caters almost exclusively to large commercial/business clients.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:40 | 3296326 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture

Check with Swiss / UBS bankers; they will tell you why.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:23 | 3295732 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Thanks for asking the most obvious question. When US tax authorities started insisting foreign banks report the activity of US citizens. When the State Dept started pressuring smaller countries that were passing laws that shut out Monsanto. When New Zealand allowed the FBI on their soil to arrest the Mega-upload guy. When the US pressured the Swiss banks to give up their customer names. Now they have a "free trade" deal The Transpacific Partnership (currently being negotiated in secret)  they want to sell to Asia that requires member nations to provide emails and phone calls of citizens to a central authority controlled by the US; and gives the trade authority the power over nation's minimum wage and workplace laws among other things.

Ecuador seems to be one country that is at least trying to resist. I think the Chinese via Hong Kong will continue to resist on the bank secrecy stuff.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:34 | 3296060 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I have been reading about this repeatedly, and yet I still have to wonder: when did US laws become applicable worldwide?

When it comes to Banking, the SPIDER is on total control.

But like you, how does it really have the authority?, FEAR?,of what sanctions might do to your country.

Tue, 03/05/2013 - 00:03 | 3299925 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

"when did US laws become applicable worldwide?"


Akak, you can make your laws applicable worldwide, by ramming treaties that contain your regulations down other countries' throats.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:50 | 3295658 curly
curly's picture

Still some pleasant countryside left?

Maybe not:

Greenwich, CT on the wold


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:03 | 3295995 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

I'm moving there for the food, Britian is known for it's fine dining culture. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 19:58 | 3296221 Joseph Jones
Joseph Jones's picture

You mean, like, corn in their tuna sandwhiches? 

We who know better presume you omitted the obligatory "/sarc off" signature. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:19 | 3295589 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

How long until they renounce those who renounce their citizenship as traitors and make it illegal?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:24 | 3295598 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

They already do that:

"In 1996, the U.S. changed its immigration law to include a provision to "name and shame" renunciants.[27] The Department of the Treasury became obligated to publish quarterly in the Federal Register the names of those citizens who renounce their citizenship. Only the names are published, but by counting the number of names in each list, media organizations are able to infer the number of renunciants each quarter. The 1996 law included a provision to bar entry to any individual "who officially renounces United States citizenship and who is determined by the Attorney General to have renounced United States citizenship for the purpose of avoiding taxation by the United States."

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:27 | 3295601 put_peter
put_peter's picture

Good God that is freedom!

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:55 | 3295663 CH1
CH1's picture

Anyone beside me remember The Gates Test?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:34 | 3295621 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

...and then tack on an adendum that states they can DRONE THE FUCK OUT OF YOU!

{cue heavy metal music}

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:41 | 3295622 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

I had an audible "holy shit" moment when I read your reply JustObserving.  I never cease to be surprised and shocked by this madness.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 17:16 | 3295930 badewann
badewann's picture

God, was I lucky! Renounced back in December 1995 because I got pissed with the

"minimum tax" they installed around 1993 or so. Even then you could smell something bad was coming up.

Bin living and working in Germany ever since. Great place though. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:26 | 3296038 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

You work AND live in a bin?  Geez, I thought the small house culture was outside of the realm of my comfort level, but spending your entire day in a BIN?!?


Good God, man, where is the outrage?!

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:33 | 3295615 Freedumb
Freedumb's picture

Schumer and some other hack proposed legislation in the past couple years (which thankfully never went through) to deny entry to the US to people who have renounced US citizenship to punish them for their lack of patriotism. What an asshole.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:39 | 3295634 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

my original post before I changed it said "how long until Feinstein, Schumer, Rangle etc. propose a law to outlaw renouncing citizenship..."

I am a Canadian and had no prior knowledge of what you replied Feedumb and JustObserving post lower down  and I'm envisioning Feinstein or Schumer trying this...and one of them already has.

Its so bloody obvious and predictable, it doesn't take a huge leap to notice how these same players keep propping up with different variations on totalitarian legislation. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:48 | 3295653 Freedumb
Freedumb's picture

Schumer is such a menace... I was just googling the law again to refresh my memory and saw that it was going to be called the "EX-PATRIOT ACT". With a title like that reading the text is probably not even necessary, you know it will be rotten.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:33 | 3295859 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Chucky is a "team player".  You're not on his "team".

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:00 | 3296223 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

they are ALL team players, and take turns keeping the proposed legislation balls in the air.

and both "parties" are on the SAME TEAM, amrkns being the OTHER team they play against.

rah rah.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 22:04 | 3296481 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

Schumer and his ilk are illiterate, bankster tea bagging scum. 

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. -- Mark Twain

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:31 | 3295854 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Newsflash:  When you apply for UI (now online!), it asks you if you "have renounced you US citizenship?"

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:41 | 3295635 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

No worries. All the Tax Dodgers and Embezzlers from Russia and China are moving here with all their Billions of Loot I read somewhere. The USA is #1 tax haven for those folks.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:44 | 3295647 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

The new deposits get special terms and conditions, but by the time their children and grandchildren get a hold of it it is subject to the normal terms and conditions and it is these people that renounce their American citizenship in 2035...if we get that far of course.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:50 | 3295769 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

It gets worse. An idea has floated around liberal circles of an moving tax.

The idea is that you lived in an area for a while and consumed the states goods. Meanwhile the state has racked up debts and now you are leaving. So the state thinks it should be able to tag you with a tax to cover your portion of the states debts even if you leave.



Sun, 03/03/2013 - 21:23 | 3296426 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

For once, the Interstate Commerce Clause could actually be used as intended.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:20 | 3295590 put_peter
put_peter's picture

Ich möchte ein Briton sein!!!

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:20 | 3295591 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture someone gives up their US citizenship because they have not lived in the US for years and all their income comes from where they now live, thus they want to avoid paying Federal income (and/or capital gains) tax to the US. Does that now mean they are stateless or is it implied that they will becomes British citizens (for example) if they have been living in London?

When (not if) international war breaks out does one really want to be stateless?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:28 | 3295603 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

from personal experience I know a person who did this, but they were a Canadian citizen since the early 80s.  I think most people take the step of renouncing citizenship after a period of being dual citizens.  Good question though, interested to hear others experiences and knowledge.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:45 | 3295648 W74
W74's picture

You share my thoughts on this.  I think most people want to have a foot in each boat before fulling stepping over, or swimming.  Even monkeys put a hand on the next branch before swinging, they almost never jump.

Edit: except for the little fuckers.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:20 | 3296025 DosZap
DosZap's picture

from personal experience I know a person who did this, but they were a Canadian citizen since the early 80s.  I think most people take the step of renouncing citizenship after a period of being dual citizens.  Good question though, interested to hear others experiences and knowledge.



My questions on this came that you could enter and stay for a short period, and you can also apply for a Green Card if you wish to stay longer.

Problem now is MOST countries make you take up residency for a min of 5yrs,before you can apply for citizenship.

Some will NEVER allow you to.


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:33 | 3295616 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

Oddly enough, I have the answer. They won't allow you to renounce until you have another citizenship. You are not allowed to become stateless.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:36 | 3295626 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Aw that is crap... because stateless : you don't pay taxes to anyone... and the scum in power can't have that.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:12 | 3295702 CH1
CH1's picture

because stateless : you don't pay taxes to anyone... and the scum in power can't have that.

It's a club, and you ain't in it!

Pay up or die!

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:41 | 3295640 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

"Oddly enough, I have the answer. They won't allow you to renounce until you have another citizenship. You are not allowed to become stateless."

Who is "they"? The USA or the country you are living within when you renounce your US citizenship? And one doesn't necessarily have to be a citizen in order to be invited forced to pay taxes.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:54 | 3295661 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

"They" is the US govt.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:15 | 3295709 CH1
CH1's picture

"They" is the US govt.

Right, though the rest of the signers of the Passport Treaties (that is, EVERY state on the planet) do similarly.

It's a Taxer's Club.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:48 | 3295766 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

Unfortunately, true. And there is a difference between the US and the USA. At least, we still have freedom of movement sans documents within the several states of the USA.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:11 | 3295698 August
August's picture

One can renounce US citizenship, and become stateless.  The USG discourages this mightily, and it will be a major complicating factor in your daily life, but it IS possible.  I personally know someone who did this in the last year or so.

You have the fun of travelling internationally only on UN documents.  It helps to be wealthy, too.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:15 | 3295711 CH1
CH1's picture

One can renounce US citizenship, and become stateless.  The USG discourages this mightily

Right. It is possible but rare.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:18 | 3295717 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

Try it. You'll have "fun" all right.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:32 | 3295745 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

It's not hard at all, it's just a pain to travel without a passport. It's possible though. You can be a Permanent Resident of many countries without a passport: first you get Permanent Residency (laws vary by country) then you renounce your prior citizenship. OK if you don't plan on going anywhere.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:53 | 3295777 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

-It's not hard at all, it's just a pain to travel without a passport... OK if you don't plan on going anywhere.


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:00 | 3295795 statelessman
statelessman's picture

Some people value being free from the U.S. government more than a good travel document.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:13 | 3295816 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

-Some people value being free from the U.S. government more than a good travel document.

Let's look at the options. As an example, if you want to immigrate to Chile, be prepared to do military service in the Chilean armed forces if you fall within the draft age there. Who doesn't want to be free from government interference, you just have to choose your poison.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:45 | 3295761 statelessman
statelessman's picture

I became stateless after renouncing my U.S. citizenship, was able to keep my bank accounts open in several countries that were about to be closed because of my citizenship.

See the State Department renunciation handbook -

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:37 | 3295863 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

"...I personally know someone who did this in the last year or so."

Not... Simon Black!?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 17:06 | 3295912 August
August's picture

Unfortunately, here in the shadowy world of US expatriates, renunciants and their molls, I cannot address your question.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:05 | 3296237 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

citizen - ship.

can't be boat - less, Admiral says it's the Law.

ship of State.

there's a pattern, eh.


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:32 | 3295746 CR Bill
CR Bill's picture

it is my understanding that one cannot renounce their citizenship unless/until they hold another

I should be a Costa Rican this year, then goodby uncle sam


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:21 | 3295594 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Pope renounces catholic religious roles while Sir James Wilson Vincent "Jimmy" Savile butt fucks the City of London. Blackmail has never become easier.

Take that headline to any insolvent Central Bank..

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:23 | 3295597 PUD
PUD's picture

I want to know where the contract is that I signed to become a US citizen. 

By what and whose authority is it decreed that because I fell out of my mothers womb onto US soil that I am automatically deemed US property?

An immigrant has to take an oath, pass a test, sign papers to become a US citizen

Where's the paper/test/oath that I took?

The fact of the matter is, I and you are not US citizens by any informed voluntary action we is an implied citizenship...a convention perpetrated on you by mass delusion and propaganda.

You cannot be something by someone elses decree lest you be called a slave or property.

If you did not enter into a contract to become a US citizen then there is nothing to renounce and you sure as shit don't need permission to renounce something you never agreed to!

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:33 | 3295619 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

SS# + UCC = forecasted government inflow for the projected average of your lifespan. This is why releasing new illegals into US sounds off alarm bells.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:37 | 3295630 PUD
PUD's picture

SS# isn't a contract of decree of's another lie that the propaganda machine issued. You were deemed US property from the moment of birth.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:46 | 3295649 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Bravo. You passed the litmus test.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:20 | 3295827 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

If a ewe or a cow wanders onto the neighbor's property and thereon gives birth to her lamb or calf, who is the owner of the offspring?  

What if said neighbor is in a different country?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:30 | 3296049 DosZap
DosZap's picture

You were deemed US property from the moment of birth.

Maybe so, but not PROPERTY, being born on US Soil, before it was the US, made you a soverign.

When you get into the system, you (unknown to you), agree to be a US citizen.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:40 | 3296072 medium giraffe
medium giraffe's picture

...and the US Govt is listed as a corporation for UCC reasons.  Therefore you are owned by a corporation.  Does that make you a corp. asset (i.e a slave)?  One to think about...


Mon, 03/04/2013 - 15:02 | 3298457 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

"Slave", because of its negative connotations has been replaced by "indentured servant" (which has been replaced by "taxpayer" and "debtor").  

"The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
He leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul:
He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name' sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: For thou art with me;
Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies;
Thou annointest my head with oil; My cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
 and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever." 

Definition: "Lord"

 a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler. 
 a person who exercises authority from property rights; an owner of land, houses, etc. 
 a person who is a leader or has great influence in a chosen profession: the great lords of banking. 
 a feudal superior; the proprietor of a manor. 
 a titled nobleman or peer; a person whose ordinary appellation contains by courtesy the title Lord or some higher title. 

Definition: "shepherd  "

a person who herds, tends, and guards sheep. 
a person who protects, guides, or watches over a person or group of people. 
a member of the clergy.

Shepherds work for Flock Owners. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:36 | 3295624 smacker
smacker's picture



You're 100% correct. Except that you're also 100% wrong.

Citizenship - as far as I know - is the result of a UN charter which states that every person is entitled to be a citizen of the country he was born in (if not of another country by arrangement) and no government is permitted to deny it. It dealt with the large numbers of stateless people mooching around Europe after WWII.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:39 | 3295633 PUD
PUD's picture

Entitled to perhaps but no one ever came to me and asked if I wanted to make good on that entitlement. It was and is just implied and out of ignorance we follow along...getting drafted, paying taxes, serving on juries etc

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:51 | 3295659 frenchie
frenchie's picture

you mean jews mooching around Europe after ww2 ?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:18 | 3296019 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

Around Palistine after WW2. Fixed that for you.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 19:51 | 3296177 Joseph Jones
Joseph Jones's picture

You mean descendants of Khazaria, the Khazars, the blood thirsty, war mongering people from the area now known as W. Turkey, who believe they are the only true human beings on earth and the rest of us schmucks are "goyim" mongrels?  See Judaic PhD. Arthur Koestler's free book online The Thirteenth Tribe.  The men who think their gism is sprinkled with invisible magic fairy dust particles that makes them "chosenites"?  

From The Talmud, the instruction manual for Judaism, the religion of hate, bigotry, sexism, and ancient Babylonian mysticsm: "Even the best of the gentiles deserve only death."

Daily prayer for Judaic males: "Thank you g_d you did not make me a slave, a gentile, nor a woman."

Judaism: The worship of the Judaic male as god. 

Holocaustianity: the highest icon of Western culture. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:59 | 3295678 curly
curly's picture

bullshit on immigrants taking oath, passing test, etc.  tell it to the mothers of future Democrat voters who cross the border illegally in the 9th month, drop the load in a US hospital for free.  it's one of the things that makes California so "great".  Birthright citizenship, 14th amendment to the US Constitution, Dred Scott, etc.  Apparently even mothers from the great white North (i.e. -- Canada) flee the hosers' "free" healthcare system to give birth in US hospitals and the drop immediately becomes a US citizen.  What a country!


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:06 | 3295691 resurger
resurger's picture


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:18 | 3295715 CH1
CH1's picture

Where's the paper/test/oath that I took?

It's implied, you heretical ingrate. COMPLY!


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:25 | 3295731 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

+1 @pud.  I like the way you think. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 17:09 | 3295920 August
August's picture

There will be a special FEMA camp, in the Nome area I believe, reserved just for Spoonerites.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:12 | 3296007 DosZap
DosZap's picture

If you did not enter into a contract to become a US citizen then there is nothing to renounce and you sure as shit don't need permission to renounce something you never agreed to!

Did you sign up for the draft?,do you have a SS Card #?.

If so, you agreed.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 19:14 | 3296134 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

Women don't sign up for the draft/selective service.
Children are given SS Card #'s in the hospital within days of their birth. Just saying.

Mon, 03/04/2013 - 00:15 | 3296872 TheObsoleteMan
TheObsoleteMan's picture

In my day, it was common practice that minors did not get an SS# until they wanted a job. I was 16 before I got mine. You had to go down to the SS office and request an application, fill it out and submit it. Today, you need not even bother to ask, one is sent to the parents address just weeks after the birth of a child.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:50 | 3296346 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture


Your argument is rational. However, we are talking about the US law, so logic and reason may not apply.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:25 | 3295599 RacerX
RacerX's picture

I'm obviously uninformed as I can't see how the UK tax system is any better than the US. If I were to emigrate the UK certainly wouldn't be on my "top ten" tax-friendly destinations, that's for sure.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:31 | 3295610 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

my guess is that the advantage to the UK is that if you don't file accurately they won't put you in jail for a decade and take all your stuff (or threat thereof) like in the USA.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:32 | 3295611 akak
akak's picture

Perhaps they just crave the spotlight, and enjoy being on camera every moment of their lives?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:41 | 3295639 W74
W74's picture

Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, that's really what I'm down to. If anyone else could offer decent suggestions I'm wide open.  Iran and Russia wouldn't be bad either, they're really not the bad guys everyone thinks they are.

Really I just want to be left alone where I can be free to prosper and live a decent life.  I'm not opposed to all taxes, I understand that roads need to be paved and police (who aren't oppressive like today's cops are) need to be paid, but why do I have to pay to give irresponsible spenders with kids 4 br houses in the suburbs and pay for them to eat steak and lobster every night?  Why?  Why?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:49 | 3295654 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

They really lack imagination.  I'd be looking at the ones you say too plus Ecuador, Guyana, Panama, Botswana, Namibia...

Maybe they're just idiots.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:04 | 3295689 Winston of Oceania
Winston of Oceania's picture

Chile gets my vote but I have too much family to leave unless under threat.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:43 | 3295758 bornlastnight
bornlastnight's picture

Why is it that after reading your comment Obama comes to mind?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:34 | 3295861 etresoi
etresoi's picture

The USA and Ethiopia are the only two countries to tax their citizens regardless of residencs.  So the process is get a citizenship anywhere but Ethiopia, then get legal residency in a country that does not tax you on forieign income and then go do what you want.

I grabbed Swiss citizenship, then took out Phillipine residency and live between my home in France and my home in Spain.  Legally tax free for the past twelve years.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:53 | 3296353 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture


How do  you "grab" a Swiss citizenship.  More details, please.  If it was so easy a lot of people would be doing it.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:55 | 3295890 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I'll pass on Iran for now for obvious regional and global reasons. although northern Iran has more fair-haired people (due to Slavic influence) and less fanatical zealots.  Russia?  Maybe the southern parts, near the Black Sea.  Hate their winters.  Else might as well pick Winnipeg (sarc!).

To your list... I'd add totally livable places like Portugal, Slovenia, Andorra, San Marino (in Europe) and to a lesser extent Bulgaria.  In Oceania I'd pick NZ.  Since I'm not a fan of tropical or arctic climates, I have to scratch a bunch of countries off my list.  Otherwise I'd be tempted by some Asian places (e.g. Thailand).

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:33 | 3296057 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:34 | 3296063 DosZap
DosZap's picture




Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:57 | 3295668 PeaceLover
PeaceLover's picture

Your paying in TWO country's  TWO.

Some just let thier wife's earn the income.

US tax code can be like herpes get manageable but never goes away.

Think about it unless your special interest the 73,803 pages of code.
Isn't there to give the average guy a break.

Plus the reason you need a lawyer isn't because it adds up to 1+1=2

It's because it adds up to politician adding 1+1=maybe yes, maybe more, maybe less..... BS
If it was fair it wouldn't need interpretation!



Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:02 | 3295683 Winston of Oceania
Winston of Oceania's picture

They are leaving to avoid the culling the socialists have planned for their useful idiots and the trouble makers.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:32 | 3295856 etresoi
etresoi's picture

Uninformed? you are not informed at all.

Here is how the real world works- the USA and Ethiopia are the only two countries to tax their citizens regardless of residencs.  So the process is get a citizenship anywhere but Ethiopia, then get legal residency in a country that does not tax you on forieign income and then go do what you want.

I grabbed Swiss citizenship, then took out Phillipine residency and live between my home in France and my home in Spain.  Legally tax free for the past twelve years.

Do your homework or remain a slave.  Choice is yours

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:41 | 3295604 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

I think I'll move to Greece or France to renounce citizenship cuz they got better taxation rates....

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:15 | 3295688 ziggy59
ziggy59's picture

You must have read the article of where Greece had tons of cash secretly flown in to avert bank runs...

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:20 | 3295723 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

by helicopter?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:29 | 3295605 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

Breathes there the man with soul so dead
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!
Whose heart hath ne’er within him burned,
As home his footsteps he hath turned
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonored , and unsung.

Sir Walter Scott

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:00 | 3295681 Winston of Oceania
Winston of Oceania's picture

So he is saying that about those who founded this country as they left another for Freedom? Fuck him! Freedom is not bound by shores it lies within the heart of those who would see it through even if it means leaving the comfort of ones own home.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 20:17 | 3296267 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

how can one be truly free if the mind is bound to a fiction such as a "nationstate" - where the lines can be endlessly redrawn, the laws too numb-erous to even learn, the peoples and their "values" foreign to your soul?

free the mind, everything else falls into line behind. . .

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:31 | 3295608 Farmer Brown
Farmer Brown's picture

I gave up mine almost 1 year ago, and my name still has not appeared in the federal register. That means the real number is likely far higher than they are letting on.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:13 | 3295636 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

Memory a little fuzzy here but I think there is something you can do that's less aggressive than renouncing. It may be called relinquishing. (But it's only an obscure legal distinction. However, the advantage to <"relinquishing" let's call it> is that you don't get put on the federal register and you're not subject to possibility of being turned away at the border if you want to return for a visit.) I would need to check my sources on this.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:48 | 3295767 Farmer Brown
Farmer Brown's picture

No, there is no such thing as "relinquishing". Trust me, I did my homework and spent a year agonizing over the decision as I read every possible piece of writing on it. I renounced. It is complete and irrevocable. Since I had a second passport (dual citizenship) I was able to get a visa so I can still visit the US (and have now been back twice since renouncing). That my name is not on the register is meaningless from a legal perspective. My renunciation is official because I have a sealed piece of paper from the dept of State that says so. The register is intended to "shame" people. The poetic irony may be that the US government is the one ashamed of printing the real list because they don't want the world to known the real numbers. If so, it would be par for the course - they make up all the other numbers, why not these?

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 16:03 | 3295802 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

As I said, I can't swear to it. It's to the advantage of governments across the globe to keep all this stuff opaque. The slave-masters do not want their slaves wandering off the plantation even if they're not called slaves. Just like the Deep South after Reconstruction. 

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:33 | 3295612 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Withdraw your money and your consent to be governed by hypocritical Statist thugs. If you have enough money to make leaving an option, you have enough money to be free, HOWEVER, most people do not want to be free......

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:33 | 3295614 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

So then the best option FORWARD is in fact England? That seems odd to me as England has been pretty well devastated by central planning madness, I thought even more so than they've achieved here in 'America' so far.

In the end the fact is that anywhere you go, eventually they will foul that place also.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:40 | 3295638 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

"The slogan “Forward!” reflected the conviction of European Marxists and radicals that their movements reflected the march of history, which would move forward past capitalism and into socialism and communism."

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:49 | 3295657 Alpha Monkey
Alpha Monkey's picture

It's just that everyone speaks english.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 17:27 | 3295947 Orly
Orly's picture

That's exactly as I see it.  It is best to emigrate to Britain with skills because they have already been through the worst of it.


Sun, 03/03/2013 - 18:25 | 3296039 DosZap
DosZap's picture

So then the best option FORWARD is in fact England?


Hell no, the city (tiny one) LONDON now has a minority caucasion pop base, over 650k Londonites have left over the past few years.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:38 | 3295618 Smegley Wanxalot
Smegley Wanxalot's picture

JFK renounced his citizenship when he proclaimed that he was now a Berliner but they let that jackass remain POSident until they could bump him off.

After that he said "I was a Berliner, now I'm a Hirnspritzer."

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 15:20 | 3295725 CH1
CH1's picture

JFK renounced his citizenship when he proclaimed that he was now a Berliner

He actually proclaimed that he was a jelly donut.

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 17:25 | 3295943 Orly
Orly's picture

That's not true, either.

C'mon, fellas...

Sun, 03/03/2013 - 14:34 | 3295620 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Easier : tell them to go fuck themselves and don't pay anything.

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