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Guest Post: The Number 1 Problem When Owning Gold

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Submitted by Simon Black of Sovereign Man blog,

In official testimony before Congress in December 1912, just three months before his death, J.P. Morgan stated quite plainly:

"[Credit] is not the money itself. Money is gold, and nothing else."

(the quote is almost Shakespearean in its unrhymed iambic pentameter...)

Of course, this testimony came only 253 days before H.R. 7837, better known as the Federal Reserve Act, was introduced on the floor of Congress.

The Federal Reserve Act went on to become law and pave the way for the perpetual fraud of fiat currency which underpins our modern financial system.

And if unbacked paper currency isn't bad enough, we award dictatorial control of the money supply to a tiny handful of people, and then simply trust them to be good guys.

Between the four of them, Masaakai Shirakawa (Bank of Japan), Mario Draghi (European Central Bank), Mervyn King (Bank of England), and Benjamin Shalom Bernanke (US Federal Reserve) control an astounding $8.85 trillion.

And given the speed with which they are printing currency and expanding credit, it's a number that's only going to increase.

Morgan was right. Credit is not money. The word credit comes from the Latin 'credere', which means 'to believe or trust.'

And when it comes to maintaining the purchasing power of their currencies, these guys have an absolutely stellar long-term track record, completely unblemished by success. In short, they have given us no reason to trust them.

Owning gold is the same as voting against this system, turning your paper currency into something that they cannot inflate or conjure out of thin air.

Yet there's one problem.

While the world's central bankers have given us absolutely no reason to trust them, our governments have given us every reason to NOT trust them.

Governments, especially the bankrupt insolvent ones, have a long history of theft, deceit, and plunder. As we have discussed so many times before, confiscation and/or criminalization of gold is not exactly a zero-risk prospect.

So while it's critical to own gold, it's equally important to store it abroad in a safe, stable jurisdiction outside of your home country.

One option if you have the means is to fly overseas and personally deposit your gold in a private, secure storage facility like Das Safe in Vienna or Cisco Certis in Singapore.

In general, it is perfectly legitimate to travel with precious metals. If you're entering, leaving, or transiting through the US, be sure to file FinCEN form 105 if the FACE VALUE of your gold exceeds $10,000.

For example, as a US 1-ounce gold Eagle has a face value of $50, you would need to file the form if you're carrying more than 200 Eagles (not including any additional cash/currency you happen to be carrying). 

Canada, the UK, and continental Europe have similar rules in their own currencies. 

If you don't want to carry gold, both Singapore and Austria are full of options to purchase bullion, tax-free. In Austria, most banks sell Austrian Philharmonic coins-- a 24 karat coin struck in 999.9 fineness that's recognized around the world.

In Singapore, it's also easy to buy gold at many banks, particularly the main branch of UOB downtown. Or if you prefer, you can stop in Hong Kong along the way and buy your gold there-- Hong Kong banks consistently have ultra-low gold premiums.

A private box at Das Safe in Vienna starts at 360 euros per year (about $470). At Cisco Certis in Singapore, it's much more cost effective at S$149 annually (about $120). 

It's also worth mentioning that if you are a US taxpayer, foreign safety deposit boxes where you have ultimate custody of your metal are currently non-reportable to Uncle Sam.

So not only can you make a giant vote against the financial system, you can also regain some privacy.

 


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Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:35 | Link to Comment Soda Popinski
Soda Popinski's picture

#1 problem is seeing the same fake paper price every morning. 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:38 | Link to Comment Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

It's insurance.  You want to pay LESS for it, not MORE.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:41 | Link to Comment MagicHandPuppet
MagicHandPuppet's picture

I'm trying to decide how much to take outside the border.... pretty sure it will be hard as hell to get to it when the SHTF.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:51 | Link to Comment Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

The Bank never "goes broke." If the Bank runs out of money, the Banker may issue as much more as needed by writing on any ordinary paper.” – Monopoly Board Game - Rule Book, Third Paragraph of Section titled - The Bank…..

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:54 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

That is the most awesome comment ever.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:11 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Simon should debate Krugman for our entertainment.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:15 | Link to Comment New England Patriot
New England Patriot's picture

"H.R. 7837, better known as the Federal Reserve Act"

 

Even better known as, the "Con Hapless Citizenry Out of Their Gold Act." 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:49 | Link to Comment Dane Bramage
Dane Bramage's picture

Why do so many authors insist on holding physical gold out of country?   Posession is 9/10 of the law.  What are the odds of your home being robbed?  The last US Gold confiscation, Executive Order number 6102, resulted in how many homes being raided for their "hoarded gold"?  Safety deposit boxes?  Yes, but anyone's home?  I think none (or 1, maybe, in the entire US?).  Listen, if your home isn't a safe place to store your gold from the government you'll be in such a state that gold will likely be the least of your concerns.  On the other hand, transferring physical gold internationally and having it stored in some bank's vaults.... ?  Yeah - you'll be able to withdraw that no problemo when SHTF.  Just catch a flight, make it back thru customs (agan), etc., etc.,.  Methinks all these proponents of expatriating one's physcial gold have a condo to sell.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:17 | Link to Comment mr1963
mr1963's picture

If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, I think they criminalized owning gold, you in fact had to turn it in for paper. While homes may not have been invaded, they certainly would have had they caught wind of it, and without hesitation. Today, there's a lot more police/DHS people running around then there was then, not to mention the "national guard." While I don't yet believe in the overseas diversification of gold because once one government like ours goes, the others will as well, I certainly believe in confiscation, including home invasion.

And I don't think you'll get back into the country with gold without being found out by either the country you're leaving or coming to. I think Simon's point has always been to find shelter and have assets in another country, not transport it back into the US.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:46 | Link to Comment ersatzteil
ersatzteil's picture

The Executive Order signed by FDR made it a criminal act to hold anything over a few gold coins, punishable by fines and jailtime. Everyone had to give the government their gold holdings redeemable at something like 20$/oz, and afterwards the Government established the price of gold as 30$/oz.

I see the advantage in storing wealth in a geographically isolated yet market-friendly country that does not have a history of throwing its citizens in concentration camps. This rules out the United States, as our German- Italian- and Japanese-American friends will attest.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:02 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Simon sez:

"In general, it is perfectly legitimate to travel with precious metals. If you're entering, leaving, or transiting through the US, be sure to file FinCEN form 105 if the FACE VALUE of your gold exceeds $10,000.

For example, as a US 1-ounce gold Eagle has a face value of $50, you would need to file the form if you're carrying more than 200 Eagles (not including any additional cash/currency you happen to be carrying)."

Wrong, wrong, wrong!  If you carry more than $10,000 (actual gold value) you must fill out a Customs form upon leaving the international airport.  Customs told me this when I was leaving once!!!  Carry all you want, but DECLARE IT if it is over $10,000 in VALUE (NOT face).

***

Don´t go to jail...

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:10 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

DoChen, while you may have been told that, it was flat-out incorrect, at least according to current US Customs information from their own website.  Gold is NOT considered a "monetary instrument", so gold coins are only subject to reporting based on their face values, NOT on their market values.

Now, there may very well be other reporting requirements regarding the import/export of gold to and from the USA, but not as far as the US Customs Service is concerned.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:31 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I BELIEVE if you have over $10,000 in ALL LIQUID ASSETS with you when you leave, you have to fill out a Customs Form, I did.  Back when the price of gold was $900...

 :)

 

EDIT:

akak, I had CUY for the first time last night!  We are in Cajamarca now!

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:34 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Again, you may have been told that, but it is incorrect.

The pertinent amount is more than $10,000 in monetary instruments.  And according to official US government and US Treasury doctrine, gold in and of itself (not talking about face value of coins here) is NOT a monetary instrument, so is not subject to reporting, at least under US Customs regulations.

If it were otherwise, any woman traveling with several ounces of gold jewelry, or with a string of real pearls, or with a 4 carat diamond ring, would be subject to reporting requirements as well, yet they are most certainly not, as I know women who have carried each of those items in foreign travel to and from the USA with no problems.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:42 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

(more info below)

I myself would not carry a decent 4 carat diamond (decent one) if it is LIQUID (a diamond may not count, as they only give you 30% if you sell it, but that´s another story for another time...).  THAT term, LIQUIDITY, is the one in question.  I believe you are CORRECT re gold not a monetary instrument, but gold is LIQUID, THAT´s what .gov cares about I believe.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 21:00 | Link to Comment Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

You can't run from the beast. If you really want to try you're better off using BitCoins than trying to convince the TSA tools that you have rights. You won't catch me at an aiport. What I ate for breakfast is priviliged information!

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:52 | Link to Comment downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

bitcoin! bitcoin! bitcoin! yay!

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 01:47 | Link to Comment Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

You are thread jack! And for what, Bitcoin?!

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:10 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Comrade Yugoshlvenski always remind that better to jack thread than jack Stolichnaya from officer's quarters.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:21 | Link to Comment Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Boris is prefer potato for vodka, but is do well to stay clear from officer hind quarter.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:19 | Link to Comment prains
prains's picture

Boris

it time to give biachislov a taste of the kozlov

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:25 | Link to Comment Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Boris is once try for Russian Wrestling Team, but after Chernobyl, bone is brittle and teeth is fall out.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:58 | Link to Comment prains
prains's picture

when rat in tunnel, keep out finger, put in gerbil

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 03:08 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

To the question posted above about declarations:

 

Importing gold coins, medals, and bullion

What are the regulations for importing gold coins, medals, and bullion into the U.S.?

There is no duty on gold coins, medals or bullion but these items must be declared to a Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Officer. Please note a FinCEN 105 form must be completed at the time of entry for monetary instruments over $10,000. This includes currency, ie. gold coins, valued over $10,000. The FINCEN definition of currency: The coin and paper money of the United States or any other country that is (1) designated as legal tender and that (2) circulates and (3) is customarily accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance.

If you have doubt whether your gold/gold coin is considered a monetary instrument it is in your best interest to declare the item(s) with a CBP Officer, so you do not give a false declaration.

 

Currency / Monetary Instruments - Definition of "Negotiable Monetary Instruments" for currency reporting requirements

What constitutes as "Negotiable Monetary Instruments" for currency reporting requirements?

Negotiable monetary instruments that must be reported by travelers or persons sending or receiving them (other then by electronic means by a banking concern) are:

  • Coin or currency from the U.S. and/or other countries, including gold coins*
  • Travelers Checks
  • Checks, promissory notes or money orders that can be cashed by the bearer. This includes checks or money orders made out to someone other than the bearer that are endorsed without restriction(i.e. for deposit only.), and incomplete checks, money orders, promissory notes that are signed but on which the name of the payee has been omitted (the "To" line is left blank)
  • Securities or stocks in bearer form

You can obtain the currency reporting form FinCEN 105 for more information.  Monetary instruments that are made payable to a named person, but are not endorsed or which bear restrictive endorsements are not subject to reporting requirements, nor are credit cards with credit lines of over $10,000.

Gold Bullion is not a monetary instrument for purposes of this requirement, but still must be declared upon entry.

*There is no duty on gold coins, medals or bullion but these items must be declared to a Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Officer.  Please note a FinCEN 105 form must be completed at the time of entry for monetary instruments over $10,000. This includes currency, ie. gold coins, valued over $10,000. The FINCEN definition of currency: The coin and paper money of the United States or any other country that is (1) designated as legal tender and that (2) circulates and (3) is customarily accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 03:21 | Link to Comment Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

You are forget to declare vodka on list of valuable. But in Russia, to declare is certain to have confiscation. Maybe soon in Amerika, too!

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 03:36 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

In Amerika, following Russian tradition, border guards have alternative non-written form allowing non-declaration for gratuity to border guard. No such form is listed on official website but is sure thing and widely known.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 21:27 | Link to Comment glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

105 specifically states monetary instruments, gold (as of now) is not a monetary instrument as defined in 105 and it is face value, not market value. If it were market value you could leave for the airport with less than $10k and arrive with more than $10k purely on market movements. The face value of the coin is all that's relevant in this case.

If TSA told you that they were wrong...but it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:34 | Link to Comment merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

While I'm glad to see this clarification of US customs law, the discussion misses an equally important point: the customs laws of all countries through which one may transit as well as the onward destination.  I don't know any of those laws, but I can easily imagine that they may differ.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:34 | Link to Comment Rusty Diggins
Rusty Diggins's picture

I wish someone would clarify what type of excise tax I have to pay for bringing more than 1 liter of hard liquer back to the ussa, what kind of limit is that?!?

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:41 | Link to Comment tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

Example:

Custom official in unknown cuntry:  do you have anything to declare?

U.S. Traveler: nothing to declare. all I have in my suitcase is a cheap suit and two million dollars in gold bars.

Custom official in unknown cuntry: no problemo-witz.  Do you have any next of kin?

U.S. Traveler: Why do I need to tell you that?

Custom official in unknown cuntry: we need to know who to send the suit to.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:43 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

You didn´t even ask me if I liked the cuy...   :)

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:49 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Sorry DoChen, but no need, is there?

The cuy (and pretty much all Peruvian/Andean food) is ALWAYS good!

 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:55 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

10-4!

Lomo saltado tonight!

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 23:57 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

Dochen,
Check out Zarco's down by the Plaza de Armas.  Ceviche for lunch w chicha morada, followed by a little aji de gallina in the evening.  Don't forget to try the causa.  Enjoy!

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:42 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Hey Turin, I make aji de gallina regularly now, after having had it for the first time in Bolivia more than 20 years ago.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 08:57 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

Good stuff!  My wife makes it about every two weeks for me.  I've only ever had it in Peru.  If I ever get back to Bolivia, I'll try it there.  I'd love to go back, but the political climate is not the best.  My favorite place is a little town called Copacabana just across the border from Peru on Lake Titicaca.  Gorgeous place.  One of the islands offshore is where Ponce de Leon thought the Fountain of Youth was.  I tried the water, but it didn't work.  ;-)

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 14:45 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Yes, Turin, Copacabana and La Isla del Sol --- I know them well.  Got stuck in Copa once for TWO DAYS trying to break a 200 Boliviano bill, which nobody in the town could break, in order to pay my hotel bill!  (In Bolivia, ALWAYS have LOTS of small bills and change!)  Munched on lots of bags of that lightly frosted choclo in the meantime, and gawked at that incredibly precious metals-laden cathedral as well. That solid silver altar, and that side chapel with the jewel-encrusted Virgin of Lake Titicaca, are truly amazing, aren't they?

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 03:03 | Link to Comment Doug Eberhardt
Doug Eberhardt's picture

I actually wrote customs on this a few years back. The reply was, you cannot use the $50 face amount as declared value, but market value of the gold coins. 

The Gold Bullion Coin ACt of 1985 made the American Gold Eagle coins legal tender. 

The customs form says, "Currency: The coin and paper money of the United States or any other country that

is (1) designated as legal tender and that (2) circulates and (3) is customarily

accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance."

But you are right about jewelry and diamonds. Some women's diamond wedding/engagement rings alone are worth well over $10,000.

The penalties are too severe to try and play the game of trying to fool customs on a face amount decleration of less than market value.

PENALTIES: Civil and criminal penalties, including under certain circumstances a

fine of not more than $500,000 and Imprisonment of not more than ten years, are

provided for failure to file a report, filing a report containing a material omission or

misstatement, or filing a false or fraudulent report. In addition, the currency or

monetary instrument may be subject to seizure and forfeiture."

 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:37 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

More comments for akak,

I forget the form number, but when I was leaving for Peru all those years ago (when gold was at $900), I went to see outbound Customs (hard to find, at MIAMI anyway), the bitch had to make a call because she knew NOTHING about that $10k liquidity declaration business.  So she made her call.

Then she asked me: "How much is that worth...?"  I told her the truth, because bitch was trying to set me up.

I had read this a few years ago, MAYBE things have changed but I doubt it.

You can always carry $9000 in gold, your wife as well, each time you leave, but make sure ALL LIQUID items are under $10k total if you do NOT declare.

IMHO...

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:48 | Link to Comment piceridu
piceridu's picture

Do Chen, you're describing the exact situation when police try and tell you they know gun laws...9 times out of 10 they are completely wrong. Knowing the law is your first line of defense.   Check this beautiful moment out: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfdEbe7e9GE

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 20:02 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Well you guys MIGHT be right, but I read years ago that there is a Customs Form (4 digit number form) that said ANY AND ALL LIQUID ITEMS in total over $10,000 had to be declared.  And bitch at Customs said so, AFTER making her call.  MAYBE (?) it´s an IRS thing too???

Have doubts?  Talk to a lawyer, not some Bearing with a hole in the middle where a brain should be...

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 23:53 | Link to Comment Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

DoChen,

Enjoy the trip.  I was in Cajamarca in December with my wife.  We have family there.  If you've got the time, you need to check out the seat of the Inca that overlooks the city.  Great view!

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 21:18 | Link to Comment Moe Hamhead
Moe Hamhead's picture

It's a good idea to declare it when you leave--so you don't have to pay duty o n  it when you return.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:20 | Link to Comment sdmjake
sdmjake's picture

EXACTLY DoChen! If you try to carry 199 Eagles without declaring it because the "Face" is less than $10k then you fucked.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/322/~/importing-gold-coins,-medals,-and-bullion

There is no duty on gold coins, medals or bullion but these items must be declared to a Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Officer. Please note a FinCEN 105 form must be completed at the time of entry for monetary instruments over $10,000. This includes currency, ie. gold coins, valued over $10,000.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:37 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Read the form itself in your link:

http://www.fincen.gov/fin105_cmir.pdf

According to US Customs and the US Treasury itself, gold is officially NOT a monetary instrument, and gold coins are officially reportable only at their face value.

That said, it would be foolish to make the attempt to travel with multiple ounces of gold, or other valuables, to and from the USA (or anywhere for that matter) without receiving clear and multiply-verified information from ALL possibly involved government agencies.

What a fucked-up world we live in, in which merely possessing or traveling with a metal, or more than a certain amount of the fucking government's OWN fiat currency, can automatically make one a 'criminal'.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:48 | Link to Comment sdmjake
sdmjake's picture

I hear ya AKAK--the form reads as if it excludes a gold eagle coin... or more correctly that it would be reported at face value... BUT the DHS/TSA/Customs ain't going to go by that form. Hence the reason i sent THEIR "help page" as the original link. They base gold coins on "VALUE" for FinCen105 purposes. You walk in with a dozen pounds of gold and don't claim it you ain't leavin with that suitcase full o phys...

BTW-This discussion is like another interesting gold coinage debate: me wanting to be paid in gold eagles and then claiming to the IRS that I only made $10,000 (face) taxable income for the 200 eagles I got. There is legal precedence but the plain and simple truth is you ain't getting away with that shit. Your ol Uncle Sam will fuck you hard if you try it.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:51 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

I can't argue with you on anything there, sdmjake.

We live in a fundamentally lawless world ruled by criminals and sociopaths.  You and I are just a means to a sick perverted, insatiably power-hungry end to them.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:27 | Link to Comment imaginalis
imaginalis's picture

200 gold eagles might fetch indefinate detainment without trial

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:55 | Link to Comment putaipan
putaipan's picture

barbarous relics sewn itno the hems of their garments- beahtches! thanks for the bitcoin thread jacking boris....you guys ..... the last part of the thread reminds me of the days circa '84 ,the first time i left the us of a with 9500$ casheesh for buisness and was \stopped  questioned frisked right before boarding. much less the 'escort' i had in the city of landing. this shit's been goin' on for years...but it is about to get wierd. get going!

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:57 | Link to Comment Dane Bramage
Dane Bramage's picture

I think they criminalized owning gold, you in fact had to turn it in for paper.

 

There exists a massive chasm between criminalization and "had to turn it in."  What FDR achieved was 99.9999999999% NON-COMPLIANCE.  Not a single home was invaded by government thugs and gold confiscated.  Does anyone in theri right mind think that would change today?  How in the hell would .gov know who even has gold, yet alone where the f it was burined/squirreled-away (buried PVC tubes FTW)??   Catch wind of what?!  Even if we had a Stasi network like East Germany one would have to advertise.  Goverment is the polar opposite of omnipotence.  Utterly unrealistic to think that a home-to-home confiscation of gold would ever happen.  The only people who would turn in their gold would be the same dolts who turn in their weapons when .gov offers a "gun buyback". 

Exactly right you'd never get back with your gold... and much good it will do you in some other country.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:30 | Link to Comment mr1963
mr1963's picture

No worries, we can disagree a little. I tend to think rats are everywhere now a days, even people you thought were trustworthy aren't, they'd roll themselves over for a bag a chips and a soda pop and you for much less.

If no one knows I have it, when I get hit by a bus I won't accomplish one goal -- safe asset for my kids, so I cannot be the only one to know.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 21:11 | Link to Comment HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

Dude, you have to tell everyone about your canoe trips. I lost all my damn PMs and my guns and ammo on those canoe trips. I don't let people know I have gold, silver, and guns. I just tell them about canoe trips and getting wet. Then the alibi is plausible if that time ever comes...

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:48 | Link to Comment tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

oops, alibi just blown.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 20:48 | Link to Comment essence
essence's picture

What's with you guys.... you just don't seem to "get it"
Control won't be house-to-house ..... instead it will be at point of sale.

Get that .... when you go to redeem your gold for clown bucks (because you need to pay some bills) ...then Mr Gov will be there ready to take it's hefty cut. I could spend a page of comment on that, let's just say there are easy methods for Mr Gov to institute.

By the way ... it'll likely work that way for guns. The Gov knows (mostly) who owns guns. They'll just make it tough for you if you don't comply with any newly passed gun restrictions. No confiscations required      e.g.  "oh you need to renew your driver's license ...then turn in your guns".

What is dismaying is this whole "jeez,  I lost my Gold in a boating accident' meme on Zerohedge.
Can't you understand?  Control won't be by door-to-door search. Instead, any time you need to interface with the system ... then it will see if you're in 'compliance'.

Bottom line ... you'll be going up against the system one by one, individually. They'll have interlinked databases that track you, your financial transactions (they'll even have archived all you emails and facebook/twitter,etc posts). It'll sit there dormant, until you become a "person of interest'. Then the system focuses on you, pulls up all your archived data ...and builds its case against you.

 

 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 21:26 | Link to Comment Dane Bramage
Dane Bramage's picture

The (statist) system will be irrelevant.  Do you have any appreciation for the massive scope of the black & grey markets currently?  Now imagine a new gold-confiscation enactment or hyperinflationary environment.  The days of the nation state are coming to an end.  Good riddance.

 

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
? Richard Buckminster Fuller

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:13 | Link to Comment DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

You may think the system is irrelevant but it's not going down without a savage fight.

See some of the preparations, long in the making for that fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfkZ1yri26s&feature=player_embedded

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:49 | Link to Comment Dr o love
Dr o love's picture

It's really not hard to stop people from using gold as currency.  Imagine that crack cocaine became a currency and how long you could barter with your neighbors with it before getting busted.

We Americans have this sense that if we rebel hard enough, we can fight "the man" and win.  Think hard about that.  You cannot win.  Your gold will do you absolutely no good buried in the ground.  The moment you try to buy some booze or cigarettes with it...  busted.

The government will put bounties on anyone who owns gold, just as it does now for tax cheats.  When the government outlaws gold, it will instantly become worthless.  That's what happened to crack cocaine when they outlawed it.  It became worthless as a currency that could be easily and publicly utilized for trade.

Yes, I know...  there is a lot of crack cocaine available.  But our prisons are also full of crack-dealing Americans who thought they could outsmart "the man."

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:44 | Link to Comment TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

It amazes me the number of articles which keep emerging purporting the merits of physical Gold. Sincerely, if you don't get it by now, you're never gonna get it.

So let's cover the basics one last time shall we;
FIAT: Let it be so (Policed by: human agreement)
CREDIT: To believe or trust (Policed by: human agreement)
PHYSICAL: Relating to Nature (Policed by: non-negotiable natural phenomena/law)

PHYSICAL GOLD: A naturally occurring element, historically used as medium for goods/service exchange, backed by non-negotiable natural phenomena/laws preventing its' creation/destruction/duplication.
FIAT CREDIT SYSTEM: A human construct, recently historically used as medium for goods/service exchange, backed by belief and trust that agreed terms are adhered to (creation/destruction/duplication????).

Natural systems are dependable in that quality (conservation of) is backed by physical law.
Human systems are not dependable in that quality (via creation/destruction/duplication) vary depending upon morality and manipulation of variables held within the system (laws not present).

So, it should not be difficult to envisage that, as matters worsen, morality will flex more and with it, greater manipulation, so that the gap between natural systems (Gold) and human systems (money) widen.

Since Bonds and Currency are the twins which expand CB Balance Sheets, it stands that both Bonds and Currency will weaken (become cheaper with respect to human labor and energy) against Physical Gold as morality continues to bend and manipulation increases.

Sure, the real price of Gold can and will be masked, but this will only be temporary.

The real war coming will be between Bonds and Physical Gold.....so they will attempt to merge the two in order to dilute the purchasing power of Gold into the Bond.

Expect a Gold Backed SDR of some type.

 

Gold isn't just money, it's a currency, a tool, insurance...a weapon!

Addressing the Ambassador directly, Prince Andrew then turned to regional politics. He stated baldly that “the United Kingdom, Western Europe (and by extension you Americans too)” were now back in the thick of playing the Great Game. More animated than ever, he stated cockily: “And this time we aim to win!

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 20:47 | Link to Comment Galahad Threepwood
Galahad Threepwood's picture

"Sincerely, if you don't get it by now, you're never gonna get it."

 

In bull markets people become bulls one at a time.  

When there's no one left it's time to sell

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 22:56 | Link to Comment TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

I believe confiscation will come soon enough (within a few years) as per my comments above.

Be aware that if the 30,000 Tons of Gold across most of the Western and Eastern world were used to dilute the US$80T gap between Bank Reserves and Bank Assets/Liabilities, then a Gold price of US$80,000/oz will emerge.

If you consider 5% of Globally managed Funds, just $3,000 for every person within a 1.4B global middle class and Central bank buying....well, that's a minimum of US$134,000/oz.

Then add buying pressure to the tune of US$80T aimed at just 2,500 Tons of mined Gold per year, year-on-year.

Be aware though that all the above figures assume that there are sellers in the market...who on earth would sell on that elevator?

In such a world, you won't be selling Gold to put it on the open market; you'd be trading Gold for property with an individual who wants to physically hold it, coz once it hits the open market the Banks/Central Banks will seize it as it enters the system....physical delivery will cease to exist.

If China lights the Touch Paper and uses Gold merely to bolster their Reserve to Asset gap, or to back an BRICS-SDR, every country will be forced to do the same. Confiscation will be on a Friday night and vaults/Safety Deposits raided over the weekend.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:38 | Link to Comment moonshadow
moonshadow's picture

not that i have any But.. i see gold as a means of transportation...a time-travel device to allow for reestablishment of wealth/capital/savings AFTER some normalcy is  resumed. it may take years so just bury it and wait. don't worry about using it while it's illegal- that's what silver and bartering is for.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:18 | Link to Comment cognus
cognus's picture

Ditto!

I think some of these  clowns that curse the 'evil banksters' are  working for them.

remember what Kyle Bass said:  once he visited COMEX vault, asked questions, had them physically show him the stash [a tad alarming how that went down] he said... "we'll take delivery of our bullion, thankee"

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:41 | Link to Comment Strut
Strut's picture

When the shit hits the fan at enough velocity that our government calls for a gold confiscation, having your stack anywhere out of reach is about as smart as having it in a JPM or GS vault in NYC. 
 
If you don't trust your gold in this country, you better leave with it, and bury it where ever you settle. 
 
PS. I find it humorous that the safest place to store gold from confiscation in the US, is what would be considered here as "socialist" governments with universal health care, substantial public safety nets, and some of the strongest regulation of corporate entities.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 20:37 | Link to Comment Againstthelie
Againstthelie's picture

IMO it's a contradiction in itself, to lobby for gold as protection but then suggest to store it somewhere else or abroad.

What is even worse with this suggestion: the ONLY real protection from confiscation is given up: ANONYMOUS possession.

Anonymous possession is the real protection. What the government doesn't know it can't confiscate.

And btw, Vienna is in Austria and this country is part of the EU, the world government institution in Europe.

Not a good suggestion.

If you buy gold, buy it cash and anonymously and keep it in your possession.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:03 | Link to Comment NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

That's a reason to buy gold coins instead of serialized gold bars.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 22:12 | Link to Comment klockwerks
klockwerks's picture

Dane, thanks for imparting so good old common sense. When it goes down the tubes, jet setting around is a really bad idea. You may not be able to leave your house let alone catch a plane. If they come to your home to get the gold, just give them lead, instead

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 23:38 | Link to Comment orez65
orez65's picture

When the US Dollar collapses there is going to be a lot of pissed off foreigners.

Any "gringo" in a foreign country will, most likely, be murdered.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 01:47 | Link to Comment Fred C Dobbs
Fred C Dobbs's picture

If gold is outlawed in the USA you won't be able to sell it.  If you do and are caught you can go to prison.  I look at it like having a million dollars worth of illegal drugs.  Where and to who are you going to sell it? 

I took over $10,000 worth of gold out of the country in 2011 and filed out the FinCEN form 105.  The US Customs officer told me specifically when I asked that it was the value of the gold and not the face value on the coins.  I have read it all depends on the US Customs person. 

 

 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:21 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Looks like some countries are not only getting the message but are doing it right:

Azerbaijan to increase gold reserves

Although the 15 tons that Azerbaijan plans to buy this year is small by central bank standards, it is evidence of continued gold buying by central banks.

Shivom Seth
March 6, 2013
www.mineweb.com

MUMBAI (Mineweb) -

In January this year, Azerbaijan acquired gold bullion for the first time in more than three years.

An additional 1 ton of gold was purchased by the State Oil Fund of the Republic of Azerbaijan on March 1. This was temporarily stored in the vaults of the Central Bank of the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Around 17,422 kilo was included into the State Oil Fund of Azerbaijan (Sofaz) investment portfolio as of March 1, 2013.

In a repatriation process, Sofaz had started placing its gold reserves in the vaults of the Central Bank of Azerbaijan in Baku.

Reports that appeared in the Azerbaijan media note that the gold purchase has been going on since February 2012 to the tune of 10,000 ounces a week. By early 2013, the Fund had bought gold assets up to 14,934 kilo (480,146 ounces).

Sofaz investment policy allows it to keep 5% of its assets in gold. In January this year, the Fund placed the first ton of physical gold in the safety vaults of the Central Bank. The gold was purchased on the London Stock Exchange.

Initially, London-based warehousing units of JPMorgan were selected for storage, but a decision was taken to transfer all the gold in Azerbaijan.

Sofaz is to establish a special treasury in the newly constructed administrative building. The construction of the administrative building is expected to be completed by the end of 2013.

According to the executive director of Sofaz, Shahmar Movsumov, Azerbaijan plans to have gold reserves of up to 30 tons by the end of this year.

He noted that, so far Sofaz had obtained 15 tons of gold amounting to $1.5 billion. Around 330 kilo of gold was brought to Azerbaijan every week, Movsumov noted.

These moves come in the wake of a strong trend toward increased gold purchases by central banks particularly in 'non-traditional' emerging markets. Within the region, reports indicate that Russia and Kazakhstan have expanded their gold reserves for a fourth straight month in January.

According to data from the International Monetary Fund, while Azerbaijan purchased a ton of gold, with its holding’s rising for the first time since May 2009, when it held 64 ounces, Kazakhstan and Belarus purchased 0.5 tons each. Tajikistan, on the other hand, purchased 100 kilo of the precious metal.

Turkey, Venezuela and several other countries have also increased their gold reserves significantly.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:19 | Link to Comment mr1963
mr1963's picture

Who's selling it to them is a better question. I keep hearing about "finite" amounts in existance, they are not mining that much.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 15:44 | Link to Comment FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

CIA.  They have thousands of tons of it.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:21 | Link to Comment EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

I was playing the Jr. version with my oldest son two days ago, and he was so excited he won.  After he counted his winnings (17 dollars), I told him to count the bank.  He totaled it up and found out it was 67 dollars (lots of bad luck hitting events and going to lunch).  We played it two more times and the bank average was 60 dollars from the three games.  I won the other two times with 10 and 25 dollars.  I was proud of what he told me after his third counting.  "Dad, I think the bank won all three times."

 Life lesson, Parker Brothers style. 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:23 | Link to Comment New England Patriot
New England Patriot's picture

Fascinating.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:44 | Link to Comment EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

I suppose not.  However, since this revelation, my 7y/o stopped asking me to play the fiat money game, and we went back to Chess.  Maybe the rest of the world could care less, but it made this father proud.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:26 | Link to Comment Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas's picture

My pop asked me if I wanted to play a game of 52 pickup once.

He might have thought I'd like it since I had a taste for the paste at the time.

 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:02 | Link to Comment PAWNMAN
PAWNMAN's picture

Wasn't Monopoly introduced in the 1920's? Must have been created by J.P. Morgan himself. The little fat bastard on the community chest card kinda resembles him.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:28 | Link to Comment Dubious Maximus
Dubious Maximus's picture

+100

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:51 | Link to Comment Patsy
Patsy's picture

Bring back the jugs!

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 01:23 | Link to Comment Its Only Rock N Roll
Its Only Rock N Roll's picture

"Dice and tokens made in China" ~ in the fine print

 

http://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/monins.pdf

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 01:27 | Link to Comment Man of the Stars
Man of the Stars's picture

Take control of all the paper and writing utensils and the bank is at your mercy.  

If the bank complains, just sit on the rule book and pretend to be a monopoly expert from Prinston!

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:51 | Link to Comment TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

"abroad in a safe, stable jurisdiction outside of your home country"

Where would that safe stable jurisdiction be for any
Westerner ? Marry a Martian and load up their UFO for
safekeeping ?

I rather sink the boat in my lake.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:43 | Link to Comment Cap Matifou
Cap Matifou's picture

The deposit be rather in walkable distance, or if you need it fancy, on the same continent, where you intend to spend your remaining days.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:46 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

That's because you're treating as a "buy & flip commodity", not a store of value.  You're showing your true speculator colors (make a quick fiat-buck).  Which is ok, but just be honest about you quick-buck goals.  :-)

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 20:41 | Link to Comment Dieselclam
Dieselclam's picture

Yeah, what's your point? The top of your head just under the Jr. Bernank helicopter blades?

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:28 | Link to Comment Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

I think shitting a cinder block would be easier than trying to retrieve my gold from a country outside of my own, when the absolute need arose.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 21:54 | Link to Comment RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

A solid gold toilet in your LearJet would solve a few problems at once.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:33 | Link to Comment zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

The #1 problem owning gold is not owning physical gold.

I've owned physical gold for 10 years. I got no problem.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 01:29 | Link to Comment Triple A
Triple A's picture

martin armstrong claims there is no manipulation in the price of gold. Markets move up and down and nothing goes up 12 years in a row without a correction. Why doesnt he get more love around here? he seems dead on as far as his computer model calls have gone since i have been reading him for the last couple of years. 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:37 | Link to Comment Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

I believe the actual quote was "Gold is money. Everything else is credit."

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:48 | Link to Comment Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Too clean...double check.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:22 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

How about: "Gold is money. Everything else is an IOU"

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:43 | Link to Comment Bullionaire
Bullionaire's picture

http://memory.loc.gov/service/gdc/scd0001/2006/20060517001te/20060517001...

 

A fascinating exchange touching upon several of today's issues:

 

 

 

Control of Money Does Not Control Credit

 

 

Q. I want to ask you a few questions bearing on the subject that you have touched upon this morning, as to the control of money. The control of credit involves a control of money, does it not?

A. A control of credit? No.

 

Q. But the basis of banking is credit, is it not?

A.  Not always. That is an evidence of banking, but it is not the money itself. Money is gold, and nothing else.

 

Q. The basis of banking is credit?

A.  Yes.

 

Q. Is there any country in the world of which the outstanding obligations passing as money are supported dollar-for-dollar by gold?

A. It comes nearer to it in England than anywhere else.

 

Q. Does it not come nearer to it here than in England?

A. No, because you have got your greenbacks.

 

A. At any rate, it is largely credit there as it is everywhere, is it not?

A.  Yes.

 

Q. A man or a group of men who have the control of credit have control of money, have they not?

A.  No, sir; not always.

 

Q. That is generally so, is it not?

A. No.

 

Q. If you had the control of all that represents the assets in the banks of New York you would have the control of all that money?

A. No, sir; not in my opinion. It may be wrong, but that is my opinion.

 

Q. Money is a commodity, and you know you can control any other commodity, do you not?

A. I do not think so.

 

Q. I thought you said this morning that you could control a commodity, but you could not control money?

A. I say you can get a combination that can control business and all that. You can control business, but you cannot control money.

 

Q. You can control a given commodity like steel or wool?

A. Take the question of food, and all that sort of thing. You could not control that.

 

Q. I am not speaking of food.

A. That is a commodity.

 

Q. I say there are commodities that you can control.

A. Yes, I suppose there are.

 

Q. And it is conceivable that every commodity could be controlled, is it not?

A.  Except money.

 

Q. If a man controlled the credit of a country, he would have a control of all its affairs?

A. He might have that, but he would not have the money. If he had the credit and I had the money, his customer would be badly off.

 

Q. Yes, I understand that. But it is not conceivable one man would have the credit and the other the money, is it because the credit is based upon money?

A. But money cannot be controlled.

 

 

Credit Based on Character

 

 

Q. Is not the credit based upon the money?

A.  No, sir.

 

Q. It has no relation?

A. No sir; none whatever.

 

Q. So that the banks of New York City would have the same credit, and if you owned them you would have the same control of credit as if you had the money, would you not?

A. I know lots of men, business men, too, who can borrow any amount, whose credit is unquestioned.

 

Q. Is that not so because it is believed that they have the money back of then?

A.  No, sir. It is because people believe in the man.

 

Q. And is regardless of whether he has any financial backing at all, is it?

A. It is, very often.

 

Q. And he might not be worth anything?

A. He might not have anything. I have known men to come into my office, and I have given them a check for a million dollars when I knew they had not a cent in the world.

 

Q. There are not many of them?

A.  Yes, a good many.

 

Q. That is not business?

A. Yes, unfortunately it is. I do not think it is good business, though.

 

 

 

 

 

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 03:24 | Link to Comment Archduke
Archduke's picture

as always, context is everything in citations. thanks bullionnaire.

this is a lot more prescient than the expigated drivel above.

 

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 04:04 | Link to Comment Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

ah, the old JPM testimony. so simple, his answers, so clueless, his questioner

credit is based on faith - and it can be bad faith, of course, if it's other people's credit

money is based on the opposite - the medium for exchange with someone you don't bother to know and so to think about if this entity is worthy of your (or someone's else's) faith

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:16 | Link to Comment Stock Tips Inve...
Stock Tips Investment's picture

Is a good approximation of reality. A function of money is to "preserve the value". In this case, gold as money if it works perfectly. There is another very important function of money: transmit information. In this case, the gold may have a very great importance. The most likely, in the future, relative prices in the economy, to move in the direction favorable for gold. This means that in the future, we will be able to buy more things, with the same amount of gold.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:24 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

...and besides

"[Credit] is not the money itself. Money is gold, and nothing else."

is actually iabmic tetrameter.   But who's counting?

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 21:26 | Link to Comment Esso
Esso's picture

iAbmic Tetrameter?

Yippee! The Latest & Greatest iDooDad from AAPL! What's it do? I want one. No, I NEED one.

I'm campin' out at BestBuy!

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:37 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

LOL, "store it outside of your home country."

I dare ya to pack 199 gold eagles through any US airport.

 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:39 | Link to Comment Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

...Or get to them so they can serve their purpose, if TSHTF in a serious way.  Hidden, out of sight, unrecorded?  Sure.  Out of country?  Only if you're at the level where you have a private jet and an airstrip.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:45 | Link to Comment McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

The phrase 'border security' will increasingly come to mean 'keeping Americans trapped in the states,' and TSA and border patrol agents will eventually be regarded as prison guards.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:46 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

EGGGGGGS actly.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:49 | Link to Comment Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Zackly!

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:31 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Disagree strongly.  You can sell you precious to Kitco here and buy it back over 'there'.  Admittedly for the usual costs in margins, but nothing's free if you're not the Fed.  Or you sell it here, take take the cash, get a cashier's check and Fedex it to yourself as a legal doc to yourself  'over there'.  Take check to bank, put into local account, and buy Au over there.  You then put it in a safe at your new/alternate place, or keep in your bank safety deposit box.  All discrete and perfectly legal.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:40 | Link to Comment McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Only terrrrrrrrrists try to take gold out of the country.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:40 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

They hate us for our 79 protons.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 21:33 | Link to Comment Esso
Esso's picture

We definitely need some strict, new proton control laws in this country.

It's for the children.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 22:12 | Link to Comment John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Its the neutrons you have to worry about.  A stray cosmic ray and suddenly your neutron becomes a proton emitting and an electron (beta ray) and you you've lost some of your gold.  (A good encuse to remember, when .gov wants to know what happened to your gold)  "sorry officer but surely you've heard of the weak nuclear force and neutron decay?"

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:11 | Link to Comment delacroix
delacroix's picture

you can drive a car into mexico, from san diego, with no paperwork, and no search. you will need a passport to get back.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 03:06 | Link to Comment Dr o love
Dr o love's picture

Ok, let me see if I've got this straight.  As soon as America becomes as dangerous as Mexico is now, Mexico will then become a safe place for Americans to lay low.  Mexicans are shooting each other now just for target practice.  When things turn sour in the USSA, DO NOT GO TO MEXICO, duh!!!  You'd probably be safer in Iran.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:42 | Link to Comment Strider52
Strider52's picture

Store it outside your home country? Might as well give it away.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:01 | Link to Comment Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

and how do you plan on getting out when SHTF????

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:10 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

by drone?

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:33 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

You DRIVE.  To Canada, not Mexico.  If you have any sense.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 22:37 | Link to Comment Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

Canada would be the very worst choice for Americans seeking to keep their gold safe from their government. If our thugs can force the New Zealand thugs to wage war on Kim Dotcom in his own home, they can and will--and have--enlisted the RCMP to seize your gold. See this:

http://personalliberty.com/2010/02/03/the-war-on-gold-a-personal-account/

Mexico is by far the safer jurisdiction for an American, especially if you drive in. And I have driven in and out many times. I have even walked into Mexico. If you drive in, there is no inspection at the border, and no one has ever asked to see my FMM (multiple entry tourist visa). You need never identify yourself or show your passport until you leave Mexico and return by way of the U.S. border checkpoints. Even there, if you don't wear a turban and your "Infidels Must Die" t-shirt, security is very relaxed.

The Mexican government does the very minimum to cooperate with the US Dept of State. They resent the treatment Mexico gets in the constant "travel advisory" notices implying that Mexico is one vast ongoing shootout between rival cartels, and they have zero interest in discouraging tourists and retirees who come down and spend money in Mexico that the local economies need desperately. I have never been treated rudely or inconsiderately in Mexico, except once, and that was by Federal cops below Mexicali who hit me up for a fake speeding charge. And even they were polite about it.

I argued with them for 20 minutes, and reduced the mordida from $45 to $20. Try that with a New York cop.

 

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 03:35 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Interesting, and thanks for the link & info.  But you answered a question that was not asked.

The question was "how do you get out when TSHTF?".  If you trust Mexican Customs and cops -- the "We don't need not stinking badges!" guys -- over Canadian Customs and cops, then... 'Bless your soul'!  And although I like how easy it is to get into Mexico during normal times (as you describe it), I'll bet you anything that it'll be a completely different matter in a TSHTF scenario.

In a TSHTF scenario, the chaos and terror will be 100x worse in Mexico than in Canada.  Especially if you are Anglo-American.  If you got Mexican roots, then it may be a different matter.  And probably the better choice.

For our purposes, let's assume that ancient 1974 case you cite, is a generality (it isn't!) and still applies (it doesn't!).  In this assumption, your point would be valid:  Not a good idea for a US Citizen (USC) to run afoul of the IRS.

If you're not a USC, but a Green Card person trying to leave the US with their gold, then in the TSHTF scenario, you would not have to worry about the '1974' example, as it would not apply to you.   You'd take your gold with you across the border.  Even so, your real and bigger worries would be TSHTF related, and then whether a foreign country, either country would even let in foreigners/Americans.  Depending on the nature of the emergency (e.g. global pandemic), the both borders would likely be sealed, and "getting out" with or w/o gold would be a relatively low priority.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 14:30 | Link to Comment Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

"In a TSHTF scenario, the chaos and terror will be 100x worse in Mexico than in Canada."

And you're basing this on what? Have you ever even been to Mexico? I think you are working on two false assumptions, to wit:

"When the SHTF, poorer countries will be much worse off than richer countries." 

That's a natural assumption for a person who does not understand why the S is hitting the F. When it gets Serious, it will be because the global financial cartel and their fiat Ponzi have failed. Ergo, the countries that have benefited most from the financialization of virtually everything will be the ones hit the hardest and seeing the most decline. In this respect, Canada is a mere operating subsidiary of the U.S. and its financial system. They even got a Goldman Sachs alumni, Mark Carney, to run Le Banque du Canada.  Canada will see the same chaos as the U.S., and for the same reasons.  Mexico, on the other hand, has seen comparatively little benefit from the Scam of All Time, and the majority of its people are still poor and have little or no access to credit. In fact, the banking Ponzi hurt Mexico; I've seen the rows of empty condos built for gringo retirees (and never finished) littering the beaches from Puerto Peñasco to La Paz. The damage in Mexico is already done.

Your other error is in supposing that Canada is in good shape financially and will remain so. Think again: Ontario's annual operating deficit is worse than California's, on a per capita basis. When debt and credit fail, Canada is screwed.

You want to know how I will get across a sealed border? That's hilarious; there's no such thing as a sealed border. Even if Mexico put up a sign at La Frontera saying "Keep Out, All You Damned Gringos and Keep Your Dollars Out Too", all it takes is a shiny coin in the palm of the Mexican agent and he looks the other way.  I've stood in the customs section of Port Au Prince Int'l Airport and watched the customs guys pull out a box cutter to open a cardboard carton. I see the owner slip a folded bill into the agent's hand, and he slides the box through, untouched. It happens every day, countless times.

Likewise, I've talked to motocrossers down in Baja Cal that do the same as the Mexicans and cross the border somewhere besides the highway. A KTM 900 makes very short work of a few miles of desert.

I'm not impressed with your armchair speculations. I've been there and done that. Many times.

Fri, 03/08/2013 - 00:03 | Link to Comment RealeyesRealize
RealeyesRealize's picture

I've heard the same.  I've ridden/raced motocross and mainly off road hare scrambles and enduros since I was about 8 so I've grown to know alot of riders.  A couple of my friends (who I ride with) were just down there riding and said it's very friendly and the locals were great.  They actually crossed over from New Mexico after meeting a family friend out there to guide them through the baja.  Stayed for a week and had blast with the locals.  I've been to some slum area of Mexico in the college days, we even drank at some fun bars( $.50 Dos Equis - you could get drunk for less then $5) and never got bad vibes where someone wanted to harm you.  Morely just wondering what the fuck some gringo is doing there lol 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:09 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

As the TSA agents would say:
Sorry sir, I didn't see any... you sure you brought them with you?...
now... you can explain it to my collegue because... I need to go somewhere...

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:40 | Link to Comment lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

simon black is just totally useless.  why do they let him post here?

200 gold us 1 oz eagles is  12.5 pounds of gold.  $300,000.  dude.  go for it.

right through jfk customs.  just keep trying to explain how they are only worth $50 each as they peer up

you body extremes, and then when you come back and xxx  of them are missing, you can file a complaint.

because you had 200 and now there are only 123.  your word, their word.

unless obama and holder have your back, you are candy. 

 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 22:16 | Link to Comment Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

boys and girls, lets keep it simple: Simon Black pays to get his posts online!

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:13 | Link to Comment stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

 

frankly, simon does a lot of travel and i would be a lot more likely to trust his knowledge and experience than yours.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 03:12 | Link to Comment putaipan
putaipan's picture

i'm stickin' with the peruvian ball bearings dude's experience over  any of ya's

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:39 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

What' JPM know?  That's why Jamie Dimon is richer.  /sarc

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:40 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

My number 1 problem holding gold is the fact I keep having damn boating accidents.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:12 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

well... one day your wife will succeed in her attempts you know...
that gold is her taxfree... your taxfree life insurance without the paperwork...

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:40 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I'd rather just leave the country now and take all my shit with me then store something so valuable so far away from me with a group of people who could give a rats ass about me or my valuables.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:32 | Link to Comment lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

fonz - no.  they LOVE you.  they LUV you bigtime.  they are going to take good care of your securities, especially the most liquid ones.

doesn't that make perfect sense?  because they want you to keep coming back and adding to their (oops, i meant the) horde.

 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:58 | Link to Comment BearOfNH
BearOfNH's picture

Amen. If you're Simon's target audience (very wealthy, very worried) it seems to me you're better off moving offshore NOW instead of trying to figure out the best way to store PMs and yet still be able to get at them quickly LATER.

New Zealand seems like a nice place.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:41 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

What garbage.  Even screwed up the most important quote of our time (and the depression) when it comes to couterparty risk.  Gold and lead, one insures the other, no fucking problem.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:11 | Link to Comment Honey Badger
Honey Badger's picture

amen, bro

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 03:15 | Link to Comment putaipan
putaipan's picture

tha's right...tha's right. i'm stickin' with r'coon for for my quote checks......

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:47 | Link to Comment Brit_Abroad
Brit_Abroad's picture

Haven't we heard this story before ? Gold is only safe if it is looked after for you by someone else, probably many thousands of miles away. I mean, really does anyone actuallly believe this bullshit ? Most of us aren't thinking about becoming refugees heading to Switzerland or Singapore for Christ's sake !!

I can almost understand someone not wanting to keep their stash at home...so bury or hide it somewhere. It's a big world out there. Be creative

Give it up Simon

 

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:14 | Link to Comment zapdude
zapdude's picture

Dig a fencepost hole, bury your precious in a sealed PVC pipe, then put the fencepost on top. 

"Midnight gardening". 

Ta-Da.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:52 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

The number one problem with Simon Black's gold is how to keep his indigenous Andino acolytes from prostrating themselves "to worship the Sun God" every time Simon visibly fondles his biscuits outside the privacy of his algae-fusion-powered CIA crypto-sherpa-robopod.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:27 | Link to Comment MissCellany
MissCellany's picture

Coca-Cola, meet keyboard! Dang, I'm still chuckling five minutes later. Well played!

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 00:37 | Link to Comment Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas's picture

Now that shit was funny.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:52 | Link to Comment TheInfoman
TheInfoman's picture

So, the same TSA screeners that steal laptops will now have a shot at your gold coins as they go through the scanners?

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:11 | Link to Comment McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

What's even more disturbing is that they're twice as likely to discover your gold if you hide it up your ass.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:39 | Link to Comment andrewp111
andrewp111's picture

If it is up your ass it will set off the metal detector, and the TSA will need to x-ray you. If it is in your carry on it will light up a false color indicative of high-Z dense materials on the TSA screen, and an inattentive TSA agent might not notice. And if it is buried inside a jar of thick ordinary copper-nickel coins (like nickels or Euros) it might not be noticeable at all, but the agent might want to paw through your jar to make sure there aren't any knives or razors buried inside.

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 02:09 | Link to Comment Fred C Dobbs
Fred C Dobbs's picture

I have taken 100 ounce silver bars through TSA.  They wanted to look at it but that was all.     

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:16 | Link to Comment TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

In Europe customs may ask at the the Swiss border : Nice watch Sir! Just like street muggers but they do wear a uniform and will question you about how you got it in detail.
Gold ? Shit, if you really get searched it is counted
as cash (spot price ) of which you are allowed to carry about a weekends worth if you have a trophy girlfriend. You could still have an ounce of real money for emergencies among your small change at the airport but this is probably about to change soon too.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:43 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Fuck the TSA!  No TSA needed:  You drive across the northern border (with your PM), hop on the plane (that does not stop in the US) and get to wherever you're going.  Don't any of you blue-eyed babes read JJ Luna?  I can't help you if you live within driving distance to Mexico, rather than Canada; the world's not perfect.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:53 | Link to Comment hedgelessWhoresMan
hedgelessWhoresMan's picture

Owning certified pre-1933 gold coins makes you a coin collector, not a terrorist.

 

Owning some silver doesn't hurt either.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:12 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Not if "they" accuse you otherwise.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:39 | Link to Comment Tim White
Tim White's picture

Owning Pre 1933's have about doubled your investment in 12 years as opposed to X6 vs. bullion...

Thu, 03/07/2013 - 04:28 | Link to Comment OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

All I have are mint silver, gold, and platinum proofs.  Silver proof sets go back to 1955 and resume in the 80's, with the odd morgan or walking liberty.  I don't have much of the gold and   platinum but I've got about twenty pounds of mint proof silver.  I figured that being numismatic would be a hedge.  The junk silver doesn't amount to much more than $500, I think that would be considered small potatoes in the scheme of things.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 16:58 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I intend to put this "have gold, will travel" to the test in the near future -- specifically to test things at both ends.  For obvious reasons, I'll hedge by keeping the market value at <$10k.  Let ya know how it 'pans' out. 

Simon:  It would be useful, if you shared your personal experiences with 'traveling with gold'.  Given that you have so many global trips.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 17:08 | Link to Comment Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

For now you'll probably be fine, as most TSA agents are probably representative of the general public and won't even understand that whatever gold you're carrying has value.  A year or so from now the situation might be different.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 18:49 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Agreed.  It may also help to 'hide' them in plain sight:  In the wallet, along with other coins (that go through the scanner).   They're... "coins", right?

Don't think we're at the stage yet, where you melt it all into an artistic form and paint it.  But people can be creative, if desperate enough, I guess.

Wed, 03/06/2013 - 19:31 | Link to Comment andrewp111
andrewp111's picture

The current x-ray machines use multiple wavelengths of x-rays, so gold coins will stand out like a sore thumb from the copper-nickel stuff that makes up most coinage.

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