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Guest Post: The Number 1 Problem When Owning Gold
Submitted by Simon Black of Sovereign Man blog,
In official testimony before Congress in December 1912, just three months before his death, J.P. Morgan stated quite plainly:
"[Credit] is not the money itself. Money is gold, and nothing else."
(the quote is almost Shakespearean in its unrhymed iambic pentameter...)
Of course, this testimony came only 253 days before H.R. 7837, better known as the Federal Reserve Act, was introduced on the floor of Congress.
The Federal Reserve Act went on to become law and pave the way for the perpetual fraud of fiat currency which underpins our modern financial system.
And if unbacked paper currency isn't bad enough, we award dictatorial control of the money supply to a tiny handful of people, and then simply trust them to be good guys.
Between the four of them, Masaakai Shirakawa (Bank of Japan), Mario Draghi (European Central Bank), Mervyn King (Bank of England), and Benjamin Shalom Bernanke (US Federal Reserve) control an astounding $8.85 trillion.
And given the speed with which they are printing currency and expanding credit, it's a number that's only going to increase.
Morgan was right. Credit is not money. The word credit comes from the Latin 'credere', which means 'to believe or trust.'
And when it comes to maintaining the purchasing power of their currencies, these guys have an absolutely stellar long-term track record, completely unblemished by success. In short, they have given us no reason to trust them.
Owning gold is the same as voting against this system, turning your paper currency into something that they cannot inflate or conjure out of thin air.
Yet there's one problem.
While the world's central bankers have given us absolutely no reason to trust them, our governments have given us every reason to NOT trust them.
Governments, especially the bankrupt insolvent ones, have a long history of theft, deceit, and plunder. As we have discussed so many times before, confiscation and/or criminalization of gold is not exactly a zero-risk prospect.
So while it's critical to own gold, it's equally important to store it abroad in a safe, stable jurisdiction outside of your home country.
One option if you have the means is to fly overseas and personally deposit your gold in a private, secure storage facility like Das Safe in Vienna or Cisco Certis in Singapore.
In general, it is perfectly legitimate to travel with precious metals. If you're entering, leaving, or transiting through the US, be sure to file FinCEN form 105 if the FACE VALUE of your gold exceeds $10,000.
For example, as a US 1-ounce gold Eagle has a face value of $50, you would need to file the form if you're carrying more than 200 Eagles (not including any additional cash/currency you happen to be carrying).
Canada, the UK, and continental Europe have similar rules in their own currencies.
If you don't want to carry gold, both Singapore and Austria are full of options to purchase bullion, tax-free. In Austria, most banks sell Austrian Philharmonic coins-- a 24 karat coin struck in 999.9 fineness that's recognized around the world.
In Singapore, it's also easy to buy gold at many banks, particularly the main branch of UOB downtown. Or if you prefer, you can stop in Hong Kong along the way and buy your gold there-- Hong Kong banks consistently have ultra-low gold premiums.
A private box at Das Safe in Vienna starts at 360 euros per year (about $470). At Cisco Certis in Singapore, it's much more cost effective at S$149 annually (about $120).
It's also worth mentioning that if you are a US taxpayer, foreign safety deposit boxes where you have ultimate custody of your metal are currently non-reportable to Uncle Sam.
So not only can you make a giant vote against the financial system, you can also regain some privacy.
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Good to know.
Given that there are NO laws against taking assets (currency or assets) out of the country, and I have never, ever encountered any Exit Customs in the US or any Western (EU, NATO) country, who cares what you take out or how much?
I'd imagine that the bigger problem might be at the other end.
Funny, I've crossed European borders more than once with Gold coins in my wallet mixed in with all sorts of other coins and never got any comment on those.
In fact, I even carry around a one ounce Silver Panda in my wallet as a lucky coin (and I usually forget all about having it with me when I travel) and not a single time did I got any questions on that even though I went to 5 or 6 different countries in the meanwhile and that's a big fat coin that should stand out like a sore thumb.
"So while it's critical to own gold, it's equally important to store it abroad in a safe, stable jurisdiction outside of your home country."
No, thank you. I will take my chances right here. If it's not in your possesion, it ain't yours. Fight & bleed for it, I might; I'd rather go down swinging to the last breath.
The only regret I have is that I have but 1 vote to give for Backdraft.
David Graeber (Debt: The First 5,000 Years) might say that money is what society says it is. Gold's good enough I guess.
Guys,now are desperate times,imagine what will be when SHTF.If you want to fight the sistem,use sistem tools.Sold your barbaric relicts in particular country,take some fiat or 0 and 1,use SWIFT and send this 0 and 1,to any country you want,pull this as cash,buy barbaric,and bury it.It is easy.
Bernanke,eat IKEA cake my friend.Ha ha,how polite i become.
Problem is, when SHTF gold won't be available for sale at any FIAT price.
Store it under ground in a secret place. Kind of gives new meaning to the phrase, gold mine.
Good luck trying to depart the USA on a (solvent,still active) airline when the big collapse comes to our doors. Trying to get from point A to B domestic will not happen, forget Singapore or Austria. Maybe a neat idea to diversify locations of stash, but NOT with me.
I agree. It is much better to store yourself in a nice corner of the world and pick up some productive property than rely on international air transit, the international gold market, and a hundred other intangibles of modern society to prepare for a fiat currency bust.
Not even Malaysians will get to Singapore or Hungarians
to Austria in a big collapse.
If you can`t walk or swim there, it`s gone.
Unless the reason is to keep a stash at or around your various chateaus, castles, mansions, etc. around the globe to ensure you've got some real money put aside when the music stops no matter where you are, this is absolutely pointless. If that was his point, then why not make it?
thankyou for the info... much appreciated
The problem with hiding gold on any real estate you don't control access to is metal detectors. Burying anything anyplace you don't have near constant visual surveillance is pretty risky, especially when SHTF. Burying in your own yard isn't much better...search warrants may be issued or, more likely, unneeded in the war against financial terrorism.
I went through basic training with a guy whose parents floated the family out of the Ukraine on a raft in the 1950s. He told me the Stalinist famine secret police went house to house with sledge hammers knocking out freshly plastered interior home walls searching for the turnips. And now TPTB have detectors capable of spotting a hemp seed from 50' based on chemical signature? Good luck hiding gold (or a can of beans) around the house, or worse, apartment/condo. Sure, keep some coinage handy for short term emergency, but a fellow needs better bulk storage.
My solution was to get the fuck out while I could based partly on these very problems. Just got back from the supermarket, bought T-bones for $3.00 a lb, totally grass fed locally. Fresh milk about $4.00 gal. Plenty of locally grown fruit and vegetables available. Oh, yea, it helps to mine your own gold too.
@gonetogalt what part of the world?
Burying the gold in a heavy steel container under a concrete floor in your own yard is probably pretty safe from any detection technology I know of. The rebar makes metal detectors useless, and if the concrete is thick enough nuclear methods won't show much either. The biggest risks are that you (or especially your heirs) won't be able to find it again in 20 or 30 years, and that a spouse or family member will dig it up without telling you. So do you tell other members of your family where it is, or do you take the secret to your grave?
If you live in FL, you have to think about sinkholes as well.
You don't want to know what I pay for for beef... what with the USD currency controls here and the difficulties the farmers have exporting food (we have an embarassing excess of food-- especially beef-- at the moment here in Argentina)... it's the next best thing to free food... but cannot be good for the farmers.
The other thing is that most metal detectors that you see are only good down to about 18" or so.
Now for stuff buried deep, they have what are called "Cache Detectors" or "Two Box Detectors" and this is what the serious treasure hunters use to find large chunks of metal several feet deep. Cannons, cannon balls. Shit like that.
Only problem is they're not accurate at all. They just give a general location as to where to dig so that you can get in there and pinpoint the location later with other detectors.
So bury your shit deep. Better yet, bury a VW bug, and toss your cache in the trunk. Even better bury your shit in a junkyard.
If you see a guy walking around your property with something the size of an attache case, with two loop antennas sticking out at either end phased at 90 degrees, this is cause for concern.
I'd make the bastards dig under a pile of pig shit. And have a gold-painted lead pile buried as a decoy elsewhere.
That'll teach 'em: Never underestimate the resourcefulness and deviousness of an older person, when dealing with 'boys with toys' and their cocky attitudes. It's more of an arms-race of intellect + wits than anything else. History is full of such examples. ;-)
You can always flush your gold down the sewer into your septic tank. It should sink to the bottom.
Please Simon, or whoever the fuck you are, enough with "it's only safe outside of your home country" bullshit. What it comes down to is that you keep your PMs close and you defend them with your fucking life. But WTFDIK, I'm just a guy with my own ideas pertaining to survival and you're a West Point grad, a former military intelligence officer and whatever the fuck else you want to invent and post on the internet. Fuck you, I'm so tired of your fucking bullshit.
Let s see now
Simon wants all PM holders to personally carry their entire stash through Airports, which just happen to be THE only place that simultaneously photographs you, and Xrays your personal stash.
What a great way to generate error free data on who has what?
Now who would benefit most from that arrangement?
You or the Government...
Oh! He's a Westie! That's explains everything. No wonder he's clueless.
This person's advice is to store your PMs in a country on the other side of the world?
You'd be better off burying your PM in a coffee can in central park.
What if you're not a coffee drinker?
Use a homeless person and hope the dogs don't dig him up.
What about gold mines and gold miners. Governments just expropriate or nationalise? Inquiring minds would like to know.
The thing about nationalization is that most Governments know they can't run the mines sucessfully and would prefer to keep professional management running these huge cash cows. I don't worry about nationalization for most miners, but higher royalties and fuel costs can crimp profits during low price times...The small scale dredging I do will never be nationalized or over-regulated because recent experience shows output declines...and gold underpins the economy here. I pay 7% to the gov't and 10% to the primary land owner...17% gross royalty. (Ouch)
I advise my family back in the US to invest a portion of their PM portfolio in foreign miners, based on political domain of the mines and overall ore grade, higher grades being less fuel cost vulnerable.
This is great advice for the signifcantly wealthy. If you are less than a multimillionaire the economics and risk of foriegn storage do not pencil out.
Not even for a significantly wealthy person is this any sort of an advice. Mobility in general and much more so outside your place of abode will be greatly encumbered and international trips made a thing of the past with entry and
exit visas withheld as in a Casablanca movie plot.
Not even a real second passport and accounts and safekeeping
under that identity will be of much use.
And unless you are from the inner circle, not even The Other
Passport will do what it did back in 2008 when money
had to get across the street.
When the SHTF you are going to assume that you can reach an airport, assume that you can afford a hyper-inflated airline ticket, and assume that when you go through customs that a bankrupt government is not going to confiscate or tax your gold? And the real problem is, you really do not know if that bankrupt country is going to be the United States or the supposedly safe country where you stored your gold!
Exactly! This guy Black must have an interest in these storage companies or he's a moron. Having it out of the country could be just as bad as storing it on the moon
When the ship hits the sand, I dont want to become a globetrotter any more than I want to make the 30 min trip to town once a week these days. Can you imagine trying to retrieve valuables farther away than where you can get to on foot? Look at any disaster, even minor ones. Fuel is one of the first things to go. Be prepared to hunker down and defend for 6 months, before leaving your stronghold.....
What were we talking about again?...
IC
Don't be silly - Simon Black's advise is for people with their own private plane or a boat NOT intended to have an accident as this one takes you to the gold rather than losing it in previous incidents.
Well, maybe not only the jet-setters (although obviously 'preferred'), but for ppl with 50-500 oz. also. If you got <50, you are not his target audience. My impression only. But I don't doubt that there is some benefit to him, to be recommending specific places. It's a business, not a charity -- understood.
I think that a lot of the 'churn' might be resolved if these people had a page on their URL, where they outline (in broad strokes at least) where their 'value add' fees etc are. Ppl understand that one has to make a living. They just don't like the pretense that they don't, as that's even worse: it's a red flag.
"So while it's critical to own gold, it's equally important to store it abroad in a safe, stable jurisdiction outside of your home country."
That is bullshit. If you own gold, own a gun and be prepared to use it if they come for your gold. If and when that time comes, don't think about it as killing a person, think about it as liberating a country.
Let's see if I understand this. The same government that suddenly makes gold illegal and try to confiscate it is the same government that will let you hop country to claim your gold knowing full well according to their records you've previously transferred it overseas? They'd say, "Sure, you can leave" but the vault would've been looted by Uncle Sam before you've taken off.
I agree with most everyone here, store it on your own terms.
Walking out of this country with a large amount of physical gold and getting cute with the reporting requirements is far riskier than taking your chances here. You're not going to be able to smuggle out 200 gold coins, you'd have a better chance being a drug mule. You'd be better off just buying physical gold with a check at the country you want to store it in. Don't forget, these foreign banks will cough up names at the drop of a hat as we've already seen.
I think all storage has risk, and since I've had my home broken into when I wasn't there, I actually think a plain safety deposit box is a good way to diversify. i know many people make the case of being locked out of them by government storm troopers, but by that point, my guess is the sh!t will have already hit the fan and bullets will be flying.
I disagree. It is very easy to walk through airport security and board an international flight with all sorts of coins in your carry-on, gold included. The security agents have no idea what a gold coin looks like and how to distinguish a Vienna Philharmonic from an old Austrian Mark. I have walked through numerous airport security lines with all sorts of coins in my carry to test this theory and never once did anyone question me.
I don't doubt that you could carry a few coins and get away with it (that's perfectly legal anyway) but truly large amounts? Have you smuggled anywhere near the 200 gold coins like the author is stating you could get away with? Somehow I doubt it.
Why risk it? My bigger fear would simply be a corrupt security agent getting into a he said/she said situation. Who do you think the authorities are going to believe? I don't even like taking my watch off before I go through the metal detector.
If you wanted to store big money in physical gold overseas, you'be be better off taking your checkbook to the country, buying it there, and then dropping it in a safety deposit box. I don't recommend that strategy, but it's a hell of a lot safer than smuggling hundreds of thousands in physical gold by walking through an international airport and going through customs. That's russian roulette.
jeepers - you got it right. 200 gold 1oz coins? through customs? in the united states? it may be legal but i think they have your name and address and as stupid as the majority of these people i see in nyc at jfk, newark, lgr, one of them may be smart enough to take note and then, you've got a problem.
It's perfectly legal to carry gold within the USA and, to take it out of the USA for now. There was a story about two years ago about a guy in Oregon who had sold everything he owned in order to move to Australia. He decided to turn all of his money into gold and silver. He blogged about it--how many gold and silver coins he purchased, and he blogged about his interaction with the Australian authorities to make sure they were not going to tax him on arrival. He also stated that he completed the proper form to present to US authorities on his departure--probably the same form mentioned on this website. After he got to Australia he checked in on the blog and said he'd made it. No hassle leaving USA, and no hassle getting his coins into Australia. If i recall correctly, he had about 150 1 oz gold and 500 1 oz silver (?). He bundled it all securely into a carryon bag. Great story.
dude, we are talking about hundreds or even thousands of coins here. the scanners will go batshit crazy at the airport, that's for sure.
I have put as many as 400 coins in my carry on without any questions asked.
400 GOLD coins? Rolls of pennies don't count.
yes, you must live where you buy and sell your gold. its not practical any other way. your other investments can be somewhere else.
Just declare the gold's value on the finCEN form 105 then it is not smuggling.
"For example, as a US 1-ounce gold Eagle has a face value of $50, you would need to file the form if you're carrying more than 200 Eagles (not including any additional cash/currency you happen to be carrying)."
This can't be true. Any lawyers out there want to dispute this?
If the coin forms part of the monetary system and produced in a government mint then it's true.
Funny huh?
I am not a lawyer, but in practice this is true. Put whatever coins you want in your carry-on... no one will ask you any questions. I have personally done this.
I think the new x-ray machines can distinguish between gold and copper-nickel. They use several different x-ray wavelengths at once, and the gold will light up a different false color from ordinary coins on the TSA screen.
So I posted this earlier, and a lot of people responded saying that it is legal to bring in 200 Gold Eagles without declaring it, even though the value would be 30x the $10,000 limit. Seeing as this seemed like an absurd loophole, I looked it up...
According to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection website:
Here's the link: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/332/kw/coins/session/L2F2Lz...
Bottom line, if the actual value of the coins is over $10,000, you have to declare it, or they can confiscate your gold. The face value doesn't matter as gold coins don't meet the FINCEN definition of currency.
This is what I was told by a US Customs officer when I filled out a finCEN form 105. It is the value of the gold and not the face value on the coin. Simon Black should know this.
see do'chens experience invalidating article and previous page of thread before ..... round 2.
Hence my newest invention that ZHs will just love.
Tungsten coated gold coins and bars...
Dazzling in it's simplicity and blinding in it's Audacity, the basterds will never figure it out.
I think their is one exemption (excluding a corrupt official) in the US is religious artifacts. Too bad the Vatican does not make 16 ounce 24 carrot christian cross coins, or just one ounce cross shaped coins. Think of the indulgances you could buy.
There's nothing to stop you having a (trustworthy!) goldsmith make one for you. Does everything have to come factory-made and gift-wrapped in this country?
Coins skip the assay charges that jewelry has.
In another jurisdiction your gold is subject to someone elses rules.
In your own possession YOU make the rules...
Or to put it another way
Immersion or dispersion, which will have less coercion.
FinCEN form 105...blah blah blah. You walk into a US airport with with 50 gold eagles and TSA will seize them, label you a counterfeting terrorist and NDAA your ass so fast you won't know what hit you.
False. I know an American citizen who left the U.S. with far more than 50 gold eagles on a flight to Quito with a stopover in Mexico City. He had zero issues with TSA in Texas, but ran into a problem with the aduana guys in the Distrito Federal. They wanted him to prove that the gold coins were his and produce the paperwork verifying that he'd bought them. Long story short, he spent about 7 weeks in a Mexican jail until he was able to call a friend in Dallas who had a business contact in the D.F.. The latter came to the prison and helped him work things out. He eventually got out and got all his coins back, but it was not a happy experience.
I myself have walked right through the scanners at the TJ crossing with 50 bullion coins in airtight plastic cases. The guy at the X-Ray machine said, "Sir, there's something very dense in your leather bag" in a questioning way. I said "Right, they're Mexican coins. I collect them." He just nodded and waved me on.
This is a lot of fuming and frothing about nothing. At this point in time, anyway.
Any Americans can store their gold with Sprott Asset Management in Canada.Easier to travel to and safe.Most don't know this but in eastern Canada off of the southern coast of Newfoundland their is a tiny island that still belongs to the French(The European French).Don't forget one thing though,if an American leaves his country and you don't have a passport,they won't let you back in.Americans can stay in Canada for six months I think it is and then you can go out(is for a day?)and then return again.If you had enough gold stored in Canada,you'd never have to go back as you would just be a visiting guest.
I do not know the specifics of Canadian emigration law, but I doubt that this is true. Probably, as with most countries, the government will issue a tourist visa, which can be extended to 180 days (6 months), but one cannot recieve more than 180 per annum on a tourist visa in most countries... whether one leaves for a day and returns or not... its just that right now, most countries do not enforce their immigration policy... leading to the mistaken belief that a foreign national on a tourist visa can leave for a day and receive a new visa. Many young trust-fund brats fritter away their youth here in South America using this approach... it is, however, illegal. It's just, they have Euros or Dollars, and so everyone lets them be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Pierre_and_Miquelon
No comment on immigration issues - but this looks like an interesting place. Hope ya like fish.
Ya mean fishing accidents?
You're right, this is great advice for the super-wealthy. Even though I get "Sovreign Man" through my email, I do find that most of Simon Blacks advice is practical for really rich people only; I've never received any usable info for folks in my lower six figure income bracket. It must be nice to be able to move all over the world at any given point in time, but this is not an option for me. I wish that Simon- or someone - would dispense financial advice for folk like me, but I guess I'm not elite or elan enough to rate.
I am not super rich and never even had a 6-figure income (teaching college without tenure does not pay much and the business that I had after I gave up on the American university world was small). However, I did in fact leave the U.S. with gold coins (and U.S. dollar cash) in my pocket to a country where the dollar holds great weight just now, because of currency controls. I am starting a business here and have already purchased all the things that I need for daily life (including a motorcycle). The total cost for a complete set of quite nice furniture and motorcycle: about $3000 USD. The cost for 8000 square meters of land with services (water, electricity, phone / internet)... about $6000 USD: sufficient land to keep about 30 chickens, 4 or 5 pigs, and 2 or 3 cows (with a little help from the vacant farmland nearby). The cost for materials to build a house: about $5000 USD.
My point: for $20,000 USD, you can have a nice little spread for yourself in many foreign countries... another $20,000 or so, and you have plenty of capital to start a small business: a kiosko, an auto repair shop, a parts store, a clothes store, whatever you want...
How's that for advice for the average guy to escape the trap of American debt slavery.
Now you can pack a pocket-knife or baseball bat but no gold.......TSA will be frisking hard looking for the gold loot.
Absurd! Why in the fuck would anyone store their gold in a vault in some other country?
If you are rich enough to own palatial estates in several foreign countries, you should store gold in every country where you can live. But nowhere else.
And if you are that rich, you will have your own plane and boat to get you there. Having your own boat also makes it easier to move gold without going through metal detectors.
"Why... store their gold in a vault in some other country?"
Don't be obtuse! Same reason you diversify assets: MITIGATE RISK! /Even squirrels know this: they 'squirrel things away"!? And I assume that you're smarter than the average squirrel? /sarc
Sorry, but you deserved that sarcastic response to your naive question. If a person had a large enough PM stash, they'd be dumb to leave it all in their country of residence. They'd move some fraction abroad. Not all of it, but some of it.
Of course, if a person isn't smart enough to realize that, then I'd argue that they're not smart enough to even own a sizable pile of gold (hundreds of thousands worth). In which case that person isn't the target audience for Simon.
If people would realize that not everyone fits Simon's prospect profile, they'd have no need to get all worked up about it. I'll wager you're not it, so no need to worry, no need to get excited.
You can hide some of yours in your gun safe, and bury the rest under a rock in a lake or pond somewhere. Or underground, under a pile of pig shit. That's all "risk mitigation" you'll need.
In anticipation that transacting in gold becomes unlawful in the US? And/Or that US dealers are prohibited from buying/selling gold to private persons? The only market still open in that scenario is the black one which would mean far lower valuations.
...just saying.
unfortunately some info in this post is out of touch with reality, customs in Europe are free to
choose the material value of your coins rather than the nominal, if you try to pass through customs with
200pcs. 50$ gold eagles the customs authority will count it as over 300k and could happily confiscate your gold
if you chose not to declare it upfront
while premiums in Hongkong are indeed low usually just 50HK$, the prices they charge these days for eagles are meanwhile higher than in
US or some places in Europe so it would actually make sense to sell there in case you wanted to do so
because they trust the other government more than they do their own.
europe would not be my choice, its heading for a not so pretty multi cultural future and has a bad track record.
Geez, you people are worse then the MSM, of coarse Gold was money back then we were on a Gold standard, DUH. Today, the only thing that's money is the Dollar and you Goldbugs should be happy about that. WHY in the world would any of you lunatics want the Gov't to control Gold as money and do what they have been doing for 3000 years, DEBASE MONEY. Now I've seen it all, no wonder why people look at Goldbugs as freaks, good work confirming your image.
Serious question:
Say I want to buy bullion and store it in Singapore. Not everything, but some, just in case.
Is this Cisco Certis company a sound way to go? Do I need to transport the bullion there myself, in-person?
I am a US Citizen and have no other passports.
Thanks for any answers or help with this subject.
Have you got some ID there sir?
A passport will do.
Oh American citizen I see? As a matter of fact we've just had some new rules come through about foreign passport holders, I've just got to make a quick phone call to verify your identity with the DHS. Did you know they have asked us to notify every foreign currency cash transaction over $1500 these days?
Still if you've done nothing wrong what does it matter I suppose?
This won't take a minute, just have a seat, would you like a coffee?
Charter a private jet. Local Airpot. No TSA. Fly to Switzerland. $30k off the top. Depends on how much you have and what you think will be going down.
try the UOB bank in Thailand instead. Not yet reporting to usa government and most people assume singapore wont let uob go down the tubes when thailand has its next 1997 moment (coming soon). Easy to buy and sell gold in Thailand although you have to get used to thai style gold purity and percentages. but the market is very orderly and transparant. getting the safe deposit box will be the hard part unless you have a work permit. Though if you open a big enough cash deposit you might get a box if the branch manager so decides. best option is to not be a usa citizen in any case. then again, why go to all this trouble just to store something so far from you that you cannot get to when you need it? I like the pvc pipe at the bottom of a fencepost idea of another commenter in this post. Hopefully they dont make a highway over your fencepost and it does not flood where you live. Gold is such a hassle.
Take all of the gold you want just declare it at US Customs when you leave by filling out finCEN form 105. As of right now it is perfectly legal to do, I've done it. Just make sure you have a place to put it when you get to your destination. Contact the gold storage places before you leave. There are some in Hong Kong too.
Aw, Jesus. I clicked on this post thinking it might contain something useful.
<*grimaces*, and goes back outside>
Thanks but no thanks. When all hell brackes loose the airlines arent flying. How ya gonna get the gold?.....
No thanks....I keep it in my grubby hands man.
Besides. Lets say you have 200K in gold. You gonna fly 20 times. I think not......
For fuck sakes! enough of the So while it's critical to own gold, it's equally important to store it abroad in a safe, stable jurisdiction outside of your home country bullshit. Its bad enough I have to read about how I am getting shafted and fleeced by owning fiat. Showing how I can get fleeced possessing PMs is like a cheap salesman coming to my door trying to cash in a trend that he has no business talking to me about since, what I have already forgotten about why I hold (emphasis on HOLD fuckers) gold, he still has to learn.
Simon and others fail to see the problem, which is government.
For instance, the government can declare at any time, that money is backed by ..... (whatever). It can say money is backed by oil. How about natural gas. Yes, maybe even gold. You are playing Russian roulette when dealing with the Government because Government is corrupt.
Government can even forbid the acceptance as gold as an asset for banks. So in essence, why would one even want to bart locally using PMs if they can't convert it for larger trade?
I hold some PMs for emergency, but I am not married to it because I realize corrupt Government still holds the cards we all must play with.
Get your PMs, but don't overweight yourself. I have been correct in saying PMs would only rise moderately compared to most assets. Any market can be manipulated with such a pervasive corrupt fascist society.
Why would anyone let an institution store their gold (no matter how reputable) in exchange for a hatcheck ticket?
And if anyone does want to store their gold outside the US, well give me a call, because I may be making an overseas trip soon...
and will be happy to help.
???
My pockets are a primary storage facility.
Not pentameter. Four beats per line. But still eloquent.
even Mexico, as backward and failed a state as they are, has at least the AUTHority to audit their CBanksters, and now pressing to audit and possibly repatriate their gold .... that is, IF there is any real gold in "their" holding tank abroad.
Imagine government does away with money as the just did in
Sweden, or cash to be exact which is the same thing to me and is giving me nightmares. So with no cash and no temporarily trustworthy means of exchange to swap gold into if need be, goldbugs are set up for an exchange of lead.
I don`t like to be cornered as such, any suggestions ?
don't keep your gold in sweden
Reading about the plight of people in Argentina during their currency crisis, holders of precious metals outside of the country were unable to access their reserves. It did them ZERO good to hold gold outside their country because they could not get to it.
I'm incredibly skeptical of gold--you store it in Austria and great, fucking Austria implodes and the banks get plundered and there goes your safe deposit box. You store it at home, you are subject to robbery, fires, or an evil government that makes converting back into inflated dollars somehow illegal, forcing you onto the black market. You're fucked any way you slice it here, folks. You're only slightly less fucked if you have physical possession of it, but we know that bars that don't have a chain of possession established are worth less than those that have a provenance. Coins are only slightly better that way.
We're avoiding the simple truth of the whole matter. And I'll tell you what that is: There is no reason to put off a revolt. And only a violent one is going to change anything.
it is the paradox of gold
gold is valuable in times of chaos
but in times of chaos the gold is of no use to you
The way I see it, gold is valuable if times are getting bad, but not yet really bad.
" TSA and border patrol agents will eventually be regarded as prison guards"
probably but if sth nasty happens in the U.S. they'll be easily corruptable... And gold IS a good corrupting tool. During WWII how many Jews have found a safe haven by giving a few gold coins to a border patrol agent?
They gave sown in Dukaten to their own local community leaders to get on and off transportation lists, according to which rumor and promised land was the final destination.
Swiss authorities insisted of their passports being marked
with a big J so they could return any such subjects to the
Germans after some banker had relieved them of their worldy
burden.
Keep your bias towards the money changers but today that
would be any of us with a small stash ; drawing the envy
of the small minded redistribution politicians, call them
any ..ism and they will be there to be appreciated.
"Don't pay the ferryman till you get to the other side". -ancient Greek proverb
Great point though. In a TSHTF scenario -- when ALL normal 'Rules of Engagement' are off the table -- having PM and diamonds is the ONLY way to have, history has shown. Also, history is full of exceptions -- which is the whole point of TSHTF.
Hedge accordingly.
do I understand this correctly: Austria has no government?
Austrians have a well earned reputation of being more honest than Americans. You don't need to count your change there normally. Likewise the Swiss.
willie is very negative on singapore; positive on hong kong for storage...gold is so cheap now - it will be a long long time before it gets this low again if ever...
Q: He's not using the Sovereign Man business and anti-US talk as the perfect cover for his Jason Bourne style, CIA wet jobs, is he? Wouldn't be the first... Julia Childs also worked for the CIA. As did some goofy, slap-stick game-show host some years back (whose name I can't remember), who, as he later claimed in a book, was a CIA hit-man in his foreign travels.
Might explain the many and brief trips, the alias, no pic, the mystery, etc. Hmmm.. have I been reading ZH too long?
If you're transiting through Hong Kong airport, you can buy gold slabs at the jewelry stores right there in the departure lounge, without even having to go through customs/immigration.
Fairly low spread, and they take cash, too. :)
Seems gold is good in an expansion phase. I am not sure, though, that it will do much good in contraction. Better to have something a little more utilitarian.
I personally think the best approach is holding physical coins. I think storing Gold abroad is especially risky since (as others have pointed out) your Gold is then on the radar and foreign govts will cave in.
Buy them using cash at a place where you don't have to give identification. There are plenty of places that provide that service in the UK (the proprietors generally hate governments as much as we do so are happy to do this despite legislation) and I'm sure there are some in the US too. Once you have it in your hand hide it in several places as best you can. Underground, in the brickwork, whatever. Tell absolutely no one. If you do this you're very unlikely to lose it in a burglary (govt sanctioned or otherwise).
As for the argument that it will be hard to convert back into the accepted currency when you need it, there will always be a black market. Dishoard it slowly and as anonymously as possible. Governments are not omnipotent so there will always be a way.
And remember, you only need to hold your Gold until things blow over. Sure, that might take a very long time, but given the other options out there, I still prefer physical Gold that only I know about and can access than anything else. Silver is also good for smaller denominations.
Good luck fellow Zerohedgers. We'll need it!
Silver coins, smaller denomination and easier to trade and barter.
Everything is still affordable. Buy as many as you can get your hands on.
,
.
OH, this is such a KEWL idea!!! I think I will look into storing my emergency food supplies and firearms OVERSEAS, too. . .
Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter
Dear Zero Hedge:
Please kindly state at the outset if a guest post is from Sovereign Man so readers won’t accidentally waste valuable time reading it only to discover it has no internal or external validity.
As long as I am commenting, I have some thoughts on gold and a question to ZH readers perhaps someone can answer for me. First, my observations.
If you accept the premise that it only makes sense to own physical gold because gold is insurance against a collapse of money, paper assets and trading houses, then the problem with gold is not how to buy and sell it during times of calamity, or where to store it where it wont be confiscated – although those are problems – no, the real problem is that to use the gold for some purpose requires selling it. Gold is a store of value, like potential energy of water in a dam, waiting to be unleashed at some future point. When water begins flowing from a dam you can see it; the same with gold. If you want to use your bold to buy a beachfront house trading at half its former price you must sell your gold. At that moment you realize gold really is money – paper money. You trade your valuable gold for soon to be worthless money to buy something else you value more than the gold; this is really the proposition that you are creating for yourself. And that transaction is visible to government, the tax people, thieves, ex spouses, spouses, and anyone else who might happen to take an interest in your business. Can’t prove the money you used to buy your gold was tax paid? The gold may be taken by the police. Make a profit on your gold thanks to inflation? Congratulations, that’s a taxable event.
The truth is if you trade your gold for money to buy something and the money becomes worth less (or worthless) before the purchase is completed, the seller will renege. Having to convert your gold to cash is the real problem with gold not the fear the government will send in robots to your house to shoot you because you have some gold behind the wall next to your gun (although that probably will happen in the USA in the future).
As far as I can tell, gold is only a practical store of value in the following circumstances:
? There is either inflation or deflation, but not so much as to disrupt the normal functioning of markets
? You are certain the gold you own really is gold and you can convince a buyer of same
? You can store your gold without it being stolen, lost or confiscated
? You can prove the gold is yours and was purchased with after tax monies
? You can access your gold when you want to sell it
? There are buyers for your gold and a functioning market
? There is no taxation of your gold redemption or risk of confiscation
? If selling your gold because your country is unstable, you can find a stable country where it possible to invest
? You can find an investment that is more valuable than the gold you are selling
I am sure you can add to this list many points I have overlooked.
And for my question: Can anyone tell me how the rich hold on to their wealth in times of calamity? During the great recession in the USA in the 1930s the stock market and real estate was wiped out but the rich remained rich. Europe had two world wars back to back but the rich remained rich. In fact, they got richer. Most of us will never have the kind of access to the top of governments that these people do. It seems to me that diversification geographically and in terms of investments, and a strong family and good quality of life and health, are the best defenses against financial ruin and are better than a horde of gold.
What you do is you make teeth out of the gold.You then go to a dentist and remove all teeth replacing them with the gold ones.Every time you need to pay for goods just pull a gold tooth out...simples.You can also store some small balls of gold up your asshole.
When the time comes, you will be able to use your gold as money by simply exchanging it directly for something else (barter). Gold will only be useful for large transactions, however, which is why everyone who owns gold should also own silver, in the form of silver dimes and quarters. These coins will be the primary currency once fiat collapses.
The more you have the more it has you & wanting nothing is tantamount to having everything.
Your premise is mistaken, the wealthy ARE subject to destruction by calamity (see the USA.) So, you observe the survivors as wealthy, but the non-survivors are forgotten. The same effect could be called the "casino's appeal": the winner (rare) brags a lot, the (common) losers are silent.
You want to be wealthy? Move among the poor. You want to be elite? Contribute something of exceptional value.
PROSECUTE THE WAR CRIMINALS!
"Dear Zero Hedge:"
You have had your day today and indeed for some weeks. You are taunting a pack of several different kinds of wolves. We are circling your disingenuous comments. Enjoy your moment for now because there will be no relief later on.
Your comments about Simon Black are unfair; he always comes across to me in his newsletters from Chile as an interesting and informative guy. ALL information inputs are potentially useful. We should not dismiss or ignore them.
Regarding your comments...many of the issues you raise have also crossed my own mind and I do not have answers to them all. People need to carefully think thru all the what ifs that you allude to when buying gold to protect their wealth.
But if you want to know how gold might be used in transactions then one place to look is Brazil (or any country that has suffered high/hyper-inflation). In their heady days of 60% inflation per month, it became standard practice for major items (homes, cars and many other goods) to be priced in USD and then converted to local currency on the day of exchange. Thus, asking a home vendor when you view "how much is that in Cruzado Novo?" would usually elicit a response of "that depends on the day you complete." In those transactions, no USD fiat changed hands in the transactions process; the buyer simply sold as many USD as necessary to fund the purchase in local currency on the day of exchange.
Likewise, gold would probably not be used as the medium of exchange if the USD goes south, simply as a pricing mechanism to retain pricing sanity.
But I realise in the current scenario if the USD goes south, having to sell some gold to conduct a transaction immediately opens you up to state surveillance. I guess the answer to that may be to store your gold abroad (as Simon Black says) and sell it there but that may raise the question of how you bring the USD back into the US to complete a purchase transaction. I don't have the answer to that, perhaps others do.
Nevertheless, that system worked in Brazil and it would certainly work in the US if USD fiat went south. The notion that people would conduct transactions in physical gold is rather daft IMO.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned BullionVault yet. Store your gold in vaults in Switzerland, NY or UK. I like the Swiss, but am deeply suspicious of what will happen to the nice, clean process they utilize when the ship hits the sand... Anyone else have thoughts on BV? http://www.bullionvault.com/
Sorry, but I NO longer trust the Swiss banks. It's their own damn fault. They have allowed themselves to become NY's and DC's "bitch", when UBS etc got sucked into America's MBS (Mortgage-Backed Securities) hell of 2002-2008.
They flushed hundreds of years worth of trust down the Rhine, and it will be a very, very long time before they get it back. But not in our lifetimes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh352yxQbkk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOPrjxYw2nk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHIg_b6yRiw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y7L27Zbrtg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygG29W0DQno
Must be nice to be at the top!
I don't like overseas storage. Poeple keep claiming " don't own paper gold!" but preach keep it overseas.
If shtf good fucking luck getting to it. It's across a huge fucking ocean. You know.......miles of water?
If you can't hold it..........you don't own it.
And if they make it illegal to own it.........you sure's the fuck aren't going to import it.
As if they don't have this shit figured out.
Collapse is our best option.
I think you will find that customs looks at actual market value for gold-not the $50 printed face value.
Is Russia's central bank trapped? A warning for Bernanke? http://www.globaleconomicmonitor.com/2013/03/is-russias-central-bank-tra...
No. That article is bullshit.
Deleted - wrong forum.
so if debter nations get gold marked to 15% of thier balance sheet how much is that a troy ounce in us $
see what Chavez got for wanting his gold?
That's what you get for buying the stuff that was lining the inside of Chernyobyl after the accident.
what's next fukishima silver? Or Palladium perhaps.
Maybe I'm missing something, but has anyone noticed that now NetDania lists gold and silver in their currency column?
"The Number 1 Problem When Owning Gold"
Not having enough green pieces of paper to buy MOAR!
De Gaulle talking about Gold Standard
In 1965, former French president Charles De Gaulle called for an international return to the gold standard. De Gaulle said a monetary standard based on gold would keep government spending in check and prevent the sort of economic crisis we are now enduring at the hands of the money masters.
Video
http://homment.com/pdzUzsajsY
The balls on De Gaulle. Where was France going to get gold after being cleaned out in WW's I & II? Red wine and caricatures of tourists strolling along he Champs-Elysees can only bring in so much gold.
Imagine paying the fucking frogs in gold and silver to work as efficiently as my new favorite CEO, the guy from Titan Tires, reported on their work habits and costs in his letter to the Employment Minister.
During the 1950s Americans were happily trading their gold reserves for French Simcas and Renault Dauphins. In the U.S., Renault sold 28,000 Dauphines in 1957, 57,000 in 1958 and 102,000 in 1959. I remember them well though I never had the misfortune of owning one.
OH, and ANOTHER THING! Didn't the KRAUTS do what this guy suggested and store their golden OVERSEAS in New York and London??? And. . . aren't they wanting to move it back home to the Fatherland???
Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter
But the gave it to the Federal Reserve Bank.
The Germans' experience with storing gold in the U.S. should convince anyone that it is not a safe place to keep their gold. The Swiss have had similar experiences with U.S. storage and then confiscation (because they can).
It sounds like you could put your gold in a safe deposit box in Vienna and take it out "as needed" convert it to fiat there and send a bank transfer to your stateside account after the hyperinflation.
If you want to keep your PMs forever, or if you believe that a Mad Max scenario will unfold, and they will be used for barter, then by all means, go ahead and bury them (safely).
But let's be clear about the obvious disadvantages of such an approach:
- certainly not completely safe
- no insurance
- no way to sell large quantities efficiently on the open market
- difficult (if not impossible) to have them shipped quickly and safely (insured)
Those disadvantages can, given a thoughtful set-up, be avoided if they are stored outside of the U.S.
The notion that countries such as Switzerland and Singapore are going to fall into chaos and confiscate the property of foreign nationals anytime soon is dubious at best. It would be national suicide, as no one would ever invest a penny in their countries again.
Won't happen.
And if capital controls become severe in the U.S., PMs will, at least initially, remain easier to ship or liquidate outside of the country.
There is no problem what-so-ever with owning gold. Only a central banker would suggest otherwise.
Anyone traveling to other countries with gold is crazy. You could lose it. Anyone who keeps their gold in some foreign bank or private vault is crazy. You could lose it (or never be able to get to it). It is all about possession. If you don't have it in hand you could lose it.
Gold was confiscated by the government back in the 30s because it was still backing for the USD. The government didn't want anyone profiting from their mistakes. The likelihood of confiscation now is slight because our FRNs are backed by FRNs. But taxation is where they will get you here in the future. It's already horrendous in the present... Calif and Fed tax combined on gold right now is 40%! What do you think the Fed Gov and the States will do with capital gain taxes on gold when we're circling the bowl? Raise them to the sky. All the prudent and future looking people who stacked over the years will lose all the profits they built up when they sell. The government will punish you for having gold.
Which is why one would want to have gold in a country where you can buy and sell it. That might not be the USA.
the problem with owning gold is my kids keep mistaking it for chocolate
Yeah i made sure my kids learned to always throw some money to the street musicians and homeless as they walked by. Unfortunately, unknown to me the kids ended up getting into my stuff and threw away what little stash I had left (after the canoe accident).
I often wonder whether I should try and claim compensation from the government, for the horrible hand that fate dealt me!?...
It seems kids are indeed the problem with owning gold...
after mf global, I began to suspect that ripping off the pslv , and maybe ensnaring eric sprott in a martin armstrong type scenario, is not unreasonable to facilitate extending the ponzi a few more years. after all, these bastards have no problems starting wars, murdering foreign leaders, and stealing their national wealth, right in front of your face.
My #1 problem with owning Gold?
I don't own enough of it!
I'm in the same boat. It seems someone should have written a song by now entitled,
"If only all my silver coins were gold (I could have hos everyday as I grow old), or
"If only all my silver coins were gold (my house wouldn't be so damn cold).
Well, something along those lines would work. I'm thinking Adam Sandler might be able to pull it off - or Toby Keith.
I'll be sure to fill out the form as I as I set sail to Fiji. Don't want to forget filling out that form.
The original bimetal system of BOTH silver and gold was better than only gold. It was no accident that the banksters corrupted Congress to demonetize silver in 1874, long before gold was demonetized. Silver is a better monetary metal for a larger number of people, than only gold for a smaller number. I agree that the meaning of the word "money" has been inverted and perverted during American history, by the banksters' triumphant fraudulence being able to runaway with taking control of the government, and thereby forcing people to accept them more and more living in a Bizarro Mirror World, where the meaning of the word "money" was debased.
However, I have basic objections to the old-fashioned ideas that the clear conservation of matter in the from of gold provides a good enough standard for "honest money." The possession of gold may end up being just as problematic as fiat money. The original gold and silver money, as illustrated both in early Greece and early America, were backed up by laws that contained death penalties for messing with them. (There was also a long period of English history in which similar death penalties existed.) Anyway, the perpetual truth in the background is money is backed by murder. That is the very problematic and paradoxical foundation of any better truth standard in money
You guys have convinced me that owning gold is much too much trouble and dangerous too. I'm selling my stash and buying a sports car. They're more fun, I hear.