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Jim Rogers: We're Wiping Out The Savings Class Globally, To Terrible Consequence

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Adam Taggart of Peak Prosperity,

Jim Rogers decries the growing uncertainty and recklessness of global central planners as the world enters unchartered financial markets:

For the first time in recorded history, we have nearly every central bank printing money and trying to debase their currency. This has never happened before. How it’s going to work out, I don't know. It just depends on which one goes down the most and first, and they take turns. When one says a currency is going down, the question is against what? because they are all trying to debase themselves. It’s a peculiar time in world history.

 

I own the dollar, not because I have any confidence in the dollar and not because it’s sound – it’s a terribly flawed currency – but I expect more currency turmoil, more financial turmoil. During periods like that, people, for whatever reason, flee to the U.S. dollar as a safe haven. It is not a safe haven, but it is perceived that way by some people. That’s why the dollar is going up. That’s why I own it. Will I own it in five years, ten years? I don't know. 

It makes it extremely difficult for the investor looking for acceptable risk/reward, or the saver looking to protect their purchasing power; as in Rogers' view, all options have their problems:

I own gold and silver and precious metals. I own all commodities, which is a better way to play as they debase currencies. I own more agriculture than just about anything else in real assets because of the reasons we discussed before. We were talking before about the risk-free or worry-free investment. Even gold: the Indian politicians are talking about coming down hard on gold, and India is the largest buyer of gold in the world. If Indian politicians do something -- whether it’s foolish or not is irrelevant -- if they do something, gold could go down a lot. So I own it. I’m not selling it. But everything has problems.

To Rogers, the bigger danger that concerns him is the hollowing out of the 'saving class' resulting from this situation. Central planners' policies are punishing the prudent in favor of rescuing the irresponsible. This has happened before in world history, and the aftermath has always had grievous economic, social -- and often human -- costs:

Throughout our history – any country’s history – the people who save their money and invest for their future are the ones that you build an economy, a society, and a nation on.

 

In America, many people saved their money, put it aside, and didn’t buy four or five houses with no job and no money down. They did what most people would consider the right thing, and what historically has been the right thing. But now, unfortunately, those people are being wiped out, because they are getting 0% return, or virtually no return, on their savings and their investments. We’re wiping them out at the expense of people who went deeply into debt, people who did what most people would consider the wrong thing at the expense of people who did the right thing. This, long-term, has terrible consequences for any nation, any society, any economy.

 

If you go back in history, you'll see what happened to the Germans when they wiped out their savings class in the 1920s. It didn’t lead to good things down the road for Germany. It didn’t lead to good things for Italy, which did the same thing. There were plenty of countries where it wiped out the people who saved and invested for their future. It’s usually a serious, political reaction, desperation in some cases, and looking for a savior and easy answers is usually what happens when you destroy the people who save and invest for the future.

Click the play button below to listen to Chris' interview with Jim Rogers (18m:59s):

Click here to read the full transcript

 

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Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:43 | 3315866 Water Is Wet
Water Is Wet's picture

Nobody gives a fuck.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:55 | 3315888 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

said by a young man to an old one

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:14 | 3315908 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

The Central Bank of DoChenRollingBearing's suggests:

1) Stop spending so damn much (individuals and governments)!

2) Save as much as possible in gold (preferred) or other hard assets!  Now!

3) Diversify as much as possible re above!

4) Avoid debt like the plague!

5) Invest $100,000 in our Peruvian 5% bonds (joke of course)...

6) Keep at least some fiat CA$H at home (in case of a SHTF), it will be accepted for a while...

***

Be part of the solution, not the problem.  Don't let THEM take away your money!

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:21 | 3315934 nmewn
nmewn's picture

My full endorsement.

We accepted fiat for our labor, there is nothing saying that whatever is left of "saved labor" has to be saved only in paper fiat.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:04 | 3315991 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I agree with a lot of what JR is saying, but the counterpoint is that if one accepts that this can't go on forever, then inevitably, there will be a lot of irresponsible people/entities currently benefitting from what central banks are doing that get slammed so hard that it simply wipes them out.

The real question isn't whether this can last for a significantly longer time, IMO, but rather what sequence of events comes next because of what's been done for the last 4 years and is still being done - do we get an inflationary spike of such significance that it wipes out lenders/creditors who don't have direct access to central bank bailouts, or do we get a deflationary reset to purge the liquidity caused infection that wipes out debtors who don't have direct access to central bank bailouts - as the next big event.

And all of this presupposes that something fundamentally destabilzing won't happen to central banks as a result of existing monetary (and de facto fiscal) policies, as well.

History tells us that when economic events similar to what the world is experiencing currently take place, there is an attempt to change the fundamental "rules of the game" as an attempt to keep everything from completely imploding.

This works in terms of meeting that basic goal sometimes, even if there are many casualties, such as with Bretton Woods, the 1971 Nixon Shock, the Plaza Accord, etc., but if such coordinated action isn't successfully undertaken to extend what everyone knows is a Pyramid Scheme, massive economic disharmony always and ultimately leads the major nations adjusting their fundamental goals out of necessity or strategy, and it leads to actual war.

As a footnote, I find the recent movements in both the JPY and GBP fascinating, because of the role that currency valuation plays in global events, especially with those movements coming on the heels of so many meetings by the G7 (I should probably refer to the G8, instead) and G20.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:12 | 3316025 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"and Jim Rogers ain't one of 'em." a gold bug decrying the loss of savers? REALLY? How bout a hearty "Phuck you Bill Gross!" instead? Not only would that be a needed dose of reality to this dog and pony show it would provide some good fodder for all us wannabe financial journalist types down here needing something to sell some threads. Throw me a bone here! I've been working this beat 4 years running now!

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:53 | 3316093 AllWorkedUp
AllWorkedUp's picture

I've never heard Roger's even once say he's buying gold. Not once. It's always "I own gold but I think it's going down more - then I'll buy". He's been saying that shit since gold $1000. I guess it never goes down enough for him to start buying. I think he's right about agriculture and energy going higher, but he's no goldbug. He's a Soro's piece of shit underling.

 In short, Roger's is a shill. Bought and paid for.

India retailers don't dictate the price of gold. Central bank buying does. Right now China and Russian cb's dictate the POG. The first country to come out and back their currency with gold, silver or even oil instead of nothing like they do now, wins.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 22:40 | 3316208 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Depends on what the meaning of "wins" is.  Let's take India.  If they issue a gold-backed currency, will they suddenly invent everything?  Will the US hand India the keys to all America's carrier groups?  Will India have enough water to grow food in the north, and stop polluting the rivers it now has?  Will the Hindus get along with the Sikhs and the Moslems, and will the Thackeray-disciples in Maharashtra love the migrant Assamis or even the folks in neighboring Andhra Pradesh? Will the Naxalites throw down their weapons?  Will the 800 million who lack modern sanitation suddenly get those Japanese-style johns that play music (to drown out embarrassing flatulance) and have heated seats and a well-aimed squirter?  Will police finally investigate rapes, and the courts prosecute it, and beat that record of a total of ONE  (1) rape conviction in New Delhi (a city of 20 million) in all of 2011?

India probably has more gold (including public and private hands) than any other country in the world.  It is likely they always have.  Gold did not serve to protect them from getting invaded or colonized by the Kushans, Afghanis, Mughals, Brits, etc., nor has it put India on top of the world in terms of discovery, lifestyle, lack of crime and corruption, national security, child labor, equal opportunity for women and lower castes, etc.

If your "winning" is like Charlie Sheen's winning, you might be right.  For the rest of the species, winning takes a little more than building an economy and society around a lump of shiny metal.  It ain't magic, it's an element.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:35 | 3316273 AllWorkedUp
AllWorkedUp's picture

Yeah all good points. What they'll do is to garner investment. A strong currency is just a piece of the of the greater puzzle-no question. A weak currency is what will turn the U,S. into third world, unless we start launching nukes, in which case everyone loses.

Which country has gotten more corrupt in the last 100 years? Tough call.

Thanks for the response. I thoughrt I was getting down voted because I don't care for Rogers,

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 01:46 | 3316385 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Economic as well as social advancement begins with discipline and creation of equal opportunity (then toss in a bit of luck, work ethic, curiosity...shake and pour).  If gold can help impose discipline in the monetary sphere, I'm all for giving it a shot, but I fear replacing one superstitious faith for another.  It seems better to go to the source of success, and not put strange gods before one and all.  Equal opportunity (plus the other inputs) is something altogether different.  A nation with a gold backed currency isn't going to draw investment simply because it backs its currency with gold.  To reduce to the ridiculous, let's say North Korea institutes one tomorrow, albeit it keeps the same legacy Dearer One and all his policies and vitriol.  They go nowhere just as fast as yesterday.

Ironically, in today's world, "debtability" seems to be a greater draw for investment. Witness the rush into Burma, a global outlier owing to its relative paucity of absolute debt that a host of folks are anxious to rectify.  A cosmetic and meaningless change here and there, and Burma's hotels are now filled with foreigners hoping to cash in on the country's debt build-up (I just wrote a piece on this which I might submit, though it probably has limited appeal and a small audience).

As for Rogers, he often makes good and amusing points, but his performance hasn't exactly set the world afire since he split with Soros.  He has become more an entertainer (and a good one) than a trader, and his typical advice about going long Egyptian flax, Keralan cardamom, or Zanzibarian 2-year paper is of limited use to most all investors.  I haven't a clue why you're today's designated outcast, racking up the red.  Just your turn, I guess, your fifteen minutes of infamy.  It's hardly fatal, so ignore it.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 07:00 | 3316570 Archduke
Archduke's picture

true.  the ZH readership's mob mentality is astonishing and ironic given its constant war waged on 'sheeple'.

critical thinking is its first casualty.  I suppose it's just the natural distribution asserting itself in a microcosm.

 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 07:44 | 3316582 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

Nobody gives a fuck - Water Is Wet

 

As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn, The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

 

-Rudyard Kipling

 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 09:20 | 3316677 King_of_simpletons
King_of_simpletons's picture

I will be dead in 20 years due to natural causes. Should I give a crap ? Nah, let the charade continue to happen. Let somebody else worry about the consequences. Now pay me my damn social security and I will sock you with medicare bills.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 10:37 | 3316786 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

Jim Rogers confidence in America is well signified by how he moved he and his family to Singapore. 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 09:46 | 3316701 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

 A nation with a gold backed currency isn't going to draw investment

~~~

No ~ It'll just find its leader Khadafi-ed & gold stolen while nobody bats an eye about it...

Same will 'soon be' true with POPPY based currencies... [for anyone who fails to grasp the principle]

http://www.chron.com/news/world/article/Afghan-leader-alleges-US-Taliban-are-colluding-4342917.php

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:23 | 3317419 dwayne elizando
dwayne elizando's picture

Forget the petro dollar, we got the poppy dollar! Now take your prescriptions, jerks!

Brought to you by Carl's jr!

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 08:37 | 3316622 Freewheelin Franklin
Freewheelin Franklin's picture

As for Rogers, he often makes good and amusing points, but his performance hasn't exactly set the world afire since he split with Soros. He has become more an entertainer (and a good one) than a trader...

 

That's usually what happens when one "retires".  

 

And if "success" is a measure of knowledge, then Dimon is near the top of that heap, rigth?

 


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 09:20 | 3316676 Croesus
Croesus's picture

Chindit:

"A nation with a gold backed currency isn't going to draw investment simply because it backs its currency with gold."

My friend: Perhaps it is presumptive on my part, but I would say that a country which backs its currency with Gold would do a better job of restoring confidence to the market than our western CB's are doing. 

As the CB's compete against each other to "drown the world in paper", Gold remains the one asset that transcends time and has "value" in all cultures, races and ethnicities.

 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 10:06 | 3316729 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Confidence is so yesterday. Today, belief in the fast buck is all that is needed. It appears there is a lot of betting on a line up of dead and dying horse in the gate. Gamblers understand any confidence is in their head and something to be used for rationalization purposes only.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 10:55 | 3316824 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

"(I just wrote a piece on this which I might submit, though it probably has limited appeal and a small audience)."

In the context of an MO then?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:54 | 3316954 theprofromdover
theprofromdover's picture

".. (I just wrote a piece on this which I might submit, though it probably has limited appeal and a small audience).."

I would read it; should be pristine example of how fast the bankers move. They have probably been sniffing around Burmese money since months before the lady was released from house-arrest.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 04:36 | 3316509 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

Take is easy... for some reason you got the ZH 'two minutes' of hate expressed in red down votes... it could've been worse.

Most of the dudes here are on your side.  Folks, like you I just fucked off with this Centrally Planned Circle Jerk which goes on and on and on.......

On the bright side, you managed to draw out a thoughtful post from the great chindit13.

Brother, stay good and take your own reasoned steps to protect yourself and family in these dark times.

Rogue

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 02:58 | 3316445 Chaos_Theory
Chaos_Theory's picture

Thank you for a brief intro on the complications of India as a society and nation.  I can't remember the exact number, but I read once their are 800+ languages spoken in India...tough to speak about a place as a singular case study of that's the case.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 04:31 | 3316507 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

if you include languages such as c++, java, and SQL.

 

 

 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 03:08 | 3316456 Larry Dallas
Larry Dallas's picture

+ 1000

Like a boss, Chindit13.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:46 | 3316291 ceilidh_trail
ceilidh_trail's picture

A bit harsh (+/- jealous?), aren't you? Jim does not need to tell you or me every move he makes or when he makes it. Jim works for himself. He left Soros' quantum fund a long time ago. He talks his own book, as we all do. Most of us are mature enough to know that and adjust accordingly. I suggest you learn to do the same. The man is free to give his opinion to anyone who wants to hear it, as you or I are. Only, he has something worth listening to...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:56 | 3317826 tango
tango's picture

It is - as previous posters have noted - the evolution of the ZH mob mentality.  No one can write an article - no matter how mundane the subject - and not be subjected to instant denunciation.   I doubt many are even reading the entire articles - just enough to rush off and shout, "Traitor  tool sheeple 1% Jew psycho richm etc: More and more it is the messenger - not the message - that's attacked.  Irony of Irony - even as they denounce CNBC, Goldman, the government and FED they fail to notice that the Tylers stay glued to CNBC and follow every FED or investment banking announcement.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 09:38 | 3316697 savagegoose
savagegoose's picture

he prob bought at browns bottom, and is still waiting  for the   bubble.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:01 | 3316835 KansasCrude
KansasCrude's picture

AllWorkedUp,  Fierce post and right on the money. I've quit listening to Rogers he either couches all his opinions or is always waiting for lower and lower prices. Blah Blah Blah  Translation he is doing nothing but shilling his postion or in this case his latest worthless book.  He seems increasingly the gadfly that makes the circuit saying basically nothing new.  His crap is a waste of time for anyone thats been in the loop for more than 6 months. Did I mention Blah Blah Blah

Since the dumbass started a family in his 60's I think his bloviating is just an excuse for him to get out of house.  Hows that for good judgement cranking out kids when you about ready for a wheelchair.  What do you bet they are minnie Jimmies complete with bow ties.....the 2010 versions of Richie Rich. 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:17 | 3317249 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I guess it never goes down enough for him to start buying. I think he's right about agriculture and energy going higher, but he's no goldbug.

Well to make that stick, you would have to KNOW his current holdings,would you not?.

A lot of folks here have alll they need, and are never going to BUY anymore.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 18:46 | 3320919 S.N.A.F.U.
S.N.A.F.U.'s picture

(I know I'm kind of stating the obvious here, but to expand on what you said...)

Yes, for savers (rather than gamblers) there are three phases:
1. catch up (converting excess dollars to gold and other hard assets)
2. saving (as long you have enough income coming in that savings is accumulating, some of that will go to gold)
3. retirement (or other non-saving periods due to expenses or job loss or whatever)

Those who were either "with the program" all along or are recent enough first-time savers that they have ZH and mises.org and other places to help them quickly get up to speed get to skip #1.  Late comers like me had to spend years in phase #1 until a sufficient amount of savings was moved to hard assets.  (While hindsight shows it would have worked out in my particular case, moving it all at once was deemed too risky.  Those who like risk can get #1 done real quick.)  Then going from phase #1 to phase #2, buying slows down quite a bit, but continues.  In phase #3 there's really no buying (except maybe for some reallocation).  Phases #2 and #3 may be a bit blurred by people who are good at investing (and therefore often have additional savings coming in even while they are technically retired).

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 18:22 | 3320835 S.N.A.F.U.
S.N.A.F.U.'s picture

AllWorkedUp said:

I've never heard Roger's even once say he's buying gold. Not once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0IitjwfRFk

Jim Rogers (@0:44):

I have gold.  If gold goes down I'll buy more.  If it goes up I'll buy more.  Gold is in a bull market, which has got years to go.  But I expect to make more money in agriculture than I do in gold.  But I own it.  I bought some yesterday, as a matter of fact.

(That isn't the only video I've seen where Rogers said he bought gold either -- IIRC in one he even pulled some gold coins out of his pocket that he bought on the way to the interview.)

I don't get the impression that Rogers is trying to time the market here.  Market timing is for gamblers in the paper market.  If you want to listen to a snake-oil salesman screaming "Buy, buy, buy!" go watch Cramer.  Rogers is likely just buying gold whenever it makes sense for his situtation, incrementally, just as most of us who are rational buy gold whenever it makes sense for our own individual situations.  Available income and savings, changing needs and plans, new opportunities, risk management and many other factors all come into play -- there is no one right time (or amount) for everyone to buy.  So whether or not Rogers is buying at any given moment is a triviality, not of any importance, not useful information for the viewer, and is not revelant to the important message Rogers is trying to get across.  (And I believe I've even heard him say as much.)

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:24 | 3316041 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

In the US tie it all back to Zirp Truthinsunshine. Zirp means to me that deflation comes first. There is a big difference between a TBTF bank and a massive insurance company. These insurance companies are heavily tied to promises that they can't keep much longer with rates where they are. I would lump pension funds in here but I just think they have access to the red bernak phone and are more likely to be back door bailed out. The insurace companies have derivates out their ass trying to hedge interest rates. It won't take much for one of them to detonate. When that happens, and a bunch of people who moved their entire 401(k) into some insurance product with guaranteed rate, watches their retirement go bye bye, you can bet your ass it will start a run on every other company. There are trillions in these products. That is when the Bernak is going to get called out. He bailed out the banks, so is he going to let all these people hang? These insurance compnies know it. So they are picking up pension funds...whatever they can to become their own version of TBTF.

My guess is Bernak bails them out, and then it is Obummer's time to shine. Wall street failed us. Now the insurance industry failed us. There is only one TRULY safe option left for your retirement nest egg, and that is the same people we trust Social Security with. So you either choose to get bailed out, and in essence forgive your principal in exhange for a gubby funded annuity, safely invested in US treasuries, or you can keep the broken pieces of what is left of your balance and throw it back in the casino.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:59 | 3316108 knukles
knukles's picture

Deflation comes first
That's the key to it all right now.
I've been runinating pon us being trapped (LOL Liquidity and Credibility, latter h/t Jesse) for several years now.  The longer we go, the more it comes true.
Just think of it....
If we enter a period of deflation like Japan, prices falling by say 2 to 3% per annum, a 3% 30 year treasury garners a 5 to 6% real return!
One of the most unpopular, nonconcensus opinions out there, which makes me feel secure in it...
Because if its concensus folks, it's generally well past it's due date.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 22:47 | 3316220 AllWorkedUp
AllWorkedUp's picture

Deflation in what? Nothing you need to live is getting cheaper. Oil? Food? Healthcare? Utilities of any kind? NO

None of that is experiencing deflation - none.

Your Dell computer or ipad or T.V. maybe even your house. but nothing that is essential, is deflating. 3% bonds will only cost you a 7-8% loss in purchasing power of what you need to live.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 00:31 | 3316327 knukles
knukles's picture

Notice the qualifier; "If"

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 08:00 | 3316593 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

You see that a lot in the Bible....and a lot of prospectuses.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 10:54 | 3316820 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

The Gospel of knukles.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 05:56 | 3316550 Poetic injustice
Poetic injustice's picture

Deflation is not possible due to all red tape.

If government would rescind most of the rules, startups would get prices down. But now you need 50 papers and regulations just to start.

In some Eastern Europe countries there are at least 19 agencies/inspections, which all show up within first week of your work and make shakedowns.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:17 | 3317411 knukles
knukles's picture

Japan is overwhelmed with regulations as is anywhere else.
They have had significnt prolonged (30 years) deflation.
It "is" possible.
QED

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:20 | 3316252 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

Further real property asset deflation is certainly a good possibility.  When you can get free money down at the bank, asset prices should be going up, but they're not.  Even if interest rates stay down at historically crazy low levels, real property prices are still high in relation to income growth and employment participation rates.  Small business is still in the tank, though nobody seems to be talking about it.  Just because Mega-Corp can cut workers and borrow for almost free doesn't mean the employment-heavy small business sector is doing well at all.  Small business drives real estate demand and retail activity in general.  Walmart seems to be feeling it lately.  So, while import prices are high, I don't see domestic inflation in anything other than imports and paper assets.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 03:35 | 3316474 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Fat Barry Ritholtz (who predicted a massive drop in gold and oil prices in December 2009 for calendar year 2010) has said that the BLS numbers are rock solid, we're in a solid & robust recovery, and anyone or any entity that dares to question the various governmental or quasi-governmental agency statistics on employment, inflation or any other economic metric is crazy loco.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 09:51 | 3316708 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

He'll say anything to keep the invites coming to the Hamptons summer party circuit...

~~~

He feels its his tribal obligation to keep up with the Schwartzes yu kno... 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 09:02 | 3316647 itstippy
itstippy's picture

"Small business drives real estate demand and retail activity in general."

Maybe 40 years ago.  Not today.  Today local economies are dominated by YUM brands chain restaurants, Big Box retail, agribusiness farms, and manufactured goods imported from Asia.

Growing up in the 1960's my local downtown business district had 3 shoe stores, 3 hardware stores, 4 drug stores, 2 Five & Dimes, 2 butcher shops, 3 bakeries, 2 paint stores, 4 diners, 6 taverns, etc.  All were independent small businesses.  Now the entire downtown business district consists of boutique specialty shops and fern bars.  No hard business left.  All the real commerce has moved to just outside the city limits, on a two-mile strip of Wal-Marts, Pizza Huts, and other large corporate retail outlets.

The managers of these corporate retail outlets are paid a salary.  They are told what to stock, how to display it, what to charge, what to put on sale, how much to pay employees, how to keep the books, etc., by corporate headquarters.  They are not "small businessmen".

The few remaining small businessmen scratch their weary heads and worry.  They continue contributing to the Small Businessmen's Association in hopes of getting representation in government.  Their dues go on to fund "pro-business" lobbyists, who fund "pro-business" politicians, who promote "pro-corporation" interests.

Both small businessmen and labor have respectively been sold out by the folks they thought were representing them; they just refuse to see it.  So they suffer in a state of cognitive dissonance, waiting for "The Recovery" to kick in and make things good again.  

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:52 | 3316945 DosZap
DosZap's picture

  All the real commerce has moved to just outside the city limits, on a two-mile strip of Wal-Marts, Pizza Huts, and other large corporate retail outlets.

 

These estabs do not constitute SMALL Business. They are SERVICE industries.

Small business is anyone who is produicing a manufactured good.That is the real driver.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 13:34 | 3317165 itstippy
itstippy's picture

I'm a small, independent trash hauler.  Four trucks, three dozen dumpsters, and six employees.  We don't produce anything - we haul garbage.  I consider it a small business.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:49 | 3317330 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I'm a small, independent trash hauler.  Four trucks, three dozen dumpsters, and six employees.  We don't produce anything - we haul garbage.  I consider it a small business.

 

Yes you are, a SERVICE business.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 05:43 | 3316536 chubbyjjfong
chubbyjjfong's picture

Totally agree wth knucles there.  Deflation surfaces first as the money is slowly leached away from the working class. There is no money for the majority of society and so spending habits change dramatically. Expensive labels are substituted with cheaper alternatives. People will keep doing this to make ends meet. The companies producing expensive brands are forced to react (reduced prices, job cuts). The wealthy will continue to buy luxury assets with their newly acquired, ever increasing (thanks to the CB machine) deleveraged money. There is a very evident disconnection occurring. Some luxury assets, such as desired property, high end fashion, art, assets of value to the elite, are increasing in price and turn-over, in addition to essential utilities such as power and water for obvious reasons. However some staple food groups, amongst other things, are coming down in price as the majority of society are forced to change their spending habits rapidly.

It makes sense that areas of society, in terms of price trends, will become extremely disconnected in conjunction with the disconnection between the wealthy few holding the majority of the money, and the rest of us who rely on the bare bones staples. The masses will face a deflationary hit (surplus goods in the market get dumped) as the disconnection tears society apart, while the wealthy panic-buy all the luxury items they can as they see the faith in money disintergrate. Deflation comes before loss of faith. Then onset of rapid hyperinflation.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 08:55 | 3316595 rbg81
rbg81's picture

Aside from real estate, everything else is going up in price.  And real estate seems to have bottomed.  Food prices are increasing geometrically, not falling.  Don't believe me?  Go visit a supermarket.

What is going on is simple: the Productive are being bled dry to pay for the non-Productive.  And increasing numbers of people are deciding to jump on the non-Productive bandwagon because.....its just easier than busting hump every day.  Thanks to the Internet, entertainent is dirt cheap, even porn is free.  As long as one has enough for basic food and shelter, you can sleep late, sit around and electronically massage your ID all day.  Thanks to automation, we don't need as many people to actually work either.  So, I see what is happening now as a historical wave.  Is it fair?  No.  But its happening regardless, driven by politics as the non-Producing class is only going to grow.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:01 | 3317700 Encroaching Darkness
Encroaching Darkness's picture

"the non-Producing class is only going to grow."

 

Agreed ... for a while.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 03:14 | 3316461 dunce
dunce's picture

Foonzanoon, i wish you were wrong,but i can not find a flaw in your assertion.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:10 | 3316241 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

First of all, probably the best comment I've read anywhere in a long time.  Very perceptive.

There is a tug of war between increasingly powerful forces of inflation and deflation, or rather, increasingly instable.  Real property is heavily deflated and IMO not moving much off of dead center, waiting for other assets to catch up.  This of course is the handiwork of the maestro at the Fed.  No bond shall ever fail while Ben draws a breath.

Meanwhile, I think everyone and every stock investor can feel the coiled spring of paper asset inflation, just waiting to take off on any bona fide good news.  But of course, economic news is so distorted with political and economic manipulations now that nothing means anything.

One thing I'm pretty darn sure of, the grand strategy of finessing problems such as human nature and massive over-indebtedness, will fail miserably.  Makes me wonder whether, on a historical basis, this level of deceit in political and economic matters is normal.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:52 | 3316947 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

<<Real property is heavily deflated and IMO not moving much off of dead center>>

 

That's the truth. Every time my realtor tells me RE has bottomed in my area  it drops even more after a tiny bounce up. Many houses are now sitting empty when they are on the market for less then $50 psf. Mall stores look empty...that's the ones that are still in business.

 

Deflation in many sectors is knawing away like a cancer while food price increases crush people from another direction. Even the famous Buffet aid, it will be long and paiful for the average person." He is right.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 00:03 | 3316305 Freddie
Freddie's picture

What is sort of interesting is the two brains who ran scum Soros money have been warning everyone. Jim Rogers and Druckenmiller.   Both of them really know their stuff. 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 07:33 | 3316580 Archduke
Archduke's picture

We have to get rid of the notion that saving is some sort of hard earned entitlement.

 

There's no such thing as saving.  There's only money losing its worth in a mattress,

or money being put to work at different velocities.  That money has to represent all

goods and services present in the system.  And the worth of money saved is only

realised if there exists an econnomy that will rechannel those monies to production.

 

If all the ageing middle class savers sit on their hoards and polish their laurels

while the youth are struggling because they are being priced out by the savings,

this imbalance must be corrected.

 

the truth of the matter is too much wealth is owned by non productive boomer retirees.

the wipe out is necessary.  it will come by the broad sweeping arm of govt, it will come

through the burden of supporting your jobless cum laude offspring still living at home,

it will  come by the perniciously selective poke of health care.

 

but prices have to readjust to levels that align with wages and allow fresh opportunities.

 

 

 

 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 10:27 | 3316764 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

The destruction of the "saver" will be the destruction of prosperity. As a small business person savings are my buffer to allow me to weather downturns and take chances of growth. If all opportunities are to stem not from savings but government backed (printed) lending, we will see only more of what we have now. People don't just work for a meal today unless they are slaves. People work for some level of financial security. Your prespective would infer that all boomers wowuld basically be wards of the State, waiting for their handout. This is not compatible with a free society. You obviously believe that poverty is caused by the hording of wealth. I believe poverty exists because any belief in a future that rewards work and responsibility is dead.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:59 | 3316968 Vooter
Vooter's picture

"the truth of the matter is too much wealth is owned by non productive boomer retirees."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! Sorry, douchebag, I was once a "youth who was struggling because I was being priced out by the savers," and then I worked and saved, and in another decade or so, I will be a "non-productive boomer retiree." THAT'S HOW IT WORKS, ASSHOLE. I didn't particularly enjoy being young and poor, but I certainly didn't walk around saying that retirees or those close to retirement should be stripped of their hard-earned wealth because my poverty was an "imbalance" that needed to be "corrected." And you like to call boomers "entitled"??? LOLOLOL...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:39 | 3316914 optionsman
optionsman's picture

IMO the seqeunce of events should be energy and food inflation for a few years. During which time the US economy increasingly accepts as a norm very low or negative real growth rates. Then at some point collapse of inflation to negative rates. On the subject of inflation I would add that I agree with JR on his view of USD which has shown some remarkble strength in light of the continuous debasement efforts. The USD strength in turn helps keep inflation rates down IMO. This situation may last quite some time and in fact is likely to lead the US out of this situation in better shape than any other large developed economy longer term.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:13 | 3316244 johnnynaps
johnnynaps's picture

If you pay income taxes on a lofty salary and vote for the red and blue teams....you are part of the problem.  Diminished spending works to a point.....then uncle scam & co steal it via inflation forcing you to spend.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:35 | 3316274 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

ok, but, if you spend it on gold, they can't steal it.

or more succinctly:

gold, bitchez!

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:33 | 3316905 TMLutas
TMLutas's picture

You might want to read up on the history of gold confiscations. What they can't do is devalue gold, stealing it is quite possible. 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:07 | 3316767 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

I don't understand your comment. So if I don't pay my taxes on a lofty salary (cheat on my taxes) and don't vote, I'm OK?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:49 | 3316941 Vooter
Vooter's picture

I don't vote, but I do pay taxes, because I have lots of better things to do than to go to jail. And I don't disagree with your sentiments, but I have to ask, are you putting your money where your mouth is? If so, you've got bigger balls than I do...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 06:58 | 3316569 Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

Great advice! - this is what my father told me, this is how I run my business and personal life, this is why I cant stand Paul Krugman et al., this is why I feel safe and sleep like a baby as soon as my tired head hits the pillow

I talked to a lot of folks about economics, I have tryed to make them change their ways, no one listen, they will have to learn the hard way - action and consequence - bring it on, popcorn ready..

 

 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:59 | 3317343 Alexandre Stavisky
Alexandre Stavisky's picture

Everyone will be better off if they FREEZE their money.  Meaning put it in your household freezer.  Gold.  Most pundits (especially freebee advice dispensers) may pose as avuncular prognosticators but they're riding herd.  You're the herd.  When markets are unresponsive to free market signals, when nearly all paper-based asset classes exceed even wildly optimistic future cash flow analyses of value, when only thin segments of society benefit from heavy hand interventionism, throw out all classical assumptions.  No rules are being followed.  Debasing currency, suppression of some commodities, suppression of constitution/bill of rights, subtle threats, suppression of free press and expansion of uber-tabloid nonsense news, large nation-state sized complete welfare dependency--there is no turning back.  50 million people getting 3 squares a day for over 5 years (without which bread line) means nearly 275 billion free lunches and still serving.

Health commoditized to transfer money to insurance companies and medical sector (immune to foreign competes), education ridiculously overpriced (again no compete), military, finance, housing subsidy, again no competes.  Manufacturing glut.

Topsy turvy.  Don't get fooled again.  Everything financial that momentarily seems attractive is so because of the fiat pump.  If buyers and sellers of all transactions could be revealed and statistically observed the entire financial edifice would take on a new complexion.  All the falsely sponsored paper chase will turn out very badly.  NASDaQ, housing, PFG, MFGlobal Anyone?   No confidence.

Gold alone will stand.  Outlawing it will drive it underground and increase its value.  Notice how all semi-auto rifles in the entire USA are sold out and $500+ premiums on used?

GOLD.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:10 | 3315909 WayBehind
WayBehind's picture

The magic printer? Its all good. Keep calm and carry on.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:44 | 3315869 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

He who saves money has much to lose; he who saves wealth has nothing to lose. Converting money to wealth is the only way to save. Tell people the difference - it's not always obvious to those unaware of the consequences of fiat collapse.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:30 | 3315953 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

you mean grow weed?

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:05 | 3316009 King_Julian
King_Julian's picture

Who could argue with that? Does anyone have a chart on the THCDOW?

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:37 | 3316279 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

the domain:

pricedinweed.com is available!
Mon, 03/11/2013 - 09:47 | 3319046 PhilofOz
PhilofOz's picture

Not when my government has laws that can confiscate everything I've ever earnt honestly previously on the basis that they declare it all came from the past proceeds of grass sales. I've thought about it, but the odds are too slanted against it where I come from at least.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:44 | 3316923 Vooter
Vooter's picture

"Tell people the difference - it's not always obvious to those unaware of the consequences of fiat collapse."

Better yet, DON'T tell them...

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:45 | 3315872 razorthin
razorthin's picture

You better be out of the market before the return of the TV add with the ER patient with money coming out of his ass.

 

I'm saving ahead of the crowd, Jimmie.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:48 | 3315873 xtop23
xtop23's picture

For a short term play I guess Jimmy's right. Personally, I just don't have the balls to play with fx or the dollar in general. Fuck that.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 22:01 | 3316113 knukles
knukles's picture

But jimmy's saying he's in US$, not other FX positions, by and large. 
Which he augments with the PM's, commodities, hard assets, etc....
He's forecasting what many here seem to bemoan all the time and playing it from the safe of the safe selections.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:47 | 3315875 Honey Badger
Honey Badger's picture

If India doesn't buy gold, that void will be filled...rather quickly.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:19 | 3315930 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

As Alasdair Macleod pointed out, gold that cost Rs 200 in 1965 costs Rs 100,000 today.  Indians will never stop buying gold as an inflation hedge.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:16 | 3316034 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

How 'bout food then...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 03:23 | 3316464 dunce
dunce's picture

Exactly,Indian govt. action and the Indian peoples action would be two vastly different things. Indians owning gold has been the way things are as long as there have been indians and gold.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:50 | 3315879 Edward Fiatski
Edward Fiatski's picture

Part of the plan, Jimmie, part of the plan... Too many peasants on the planet - have to keep population under 500,000,000.

FX wars is a precursor to the real meat that, supposedly, will solve the globe's problems - and that is the Third World War.

/tip hat

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:54 | 3315886 fudge
fudge's picture

will solve the globe's problems

surely depends on whether you're on the 'winning' side.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:11 | 3315912 Edward Fiatski
Edward Fiatski's picture

Irrelevant for the most part. :)

"Do you want... to live...Forever?"

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:37 | 3315961 fudge
fudge's picture

"Do you want... to live...Forever?"

Myself maybe not,another 20yrs would be good.This story does raise an interesting point -- looking forward,what of the children of elite,

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/technology/2013/03/09/07/07/japan-clones-26-g...

 

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:52 | 3315882 fijisailor
fijisailor's picture

Which historical money printing event was similar to this one?  I don't know but it would be one where the citizens had nowhere to invest their money except for in the ponzi or in PMs.  How about the Romans?  Did they have any place to run and hide with their money when it was debased?

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:54 | 3315972 Manthong
Manthong's picture

They fled Rome for the hills and joined up with the "barbarians" who had traditional tribal values.

It's true.  Their money was debased, their property was taxed to insanity so they left and joined up with the "immigrants" from the north (Alaric, I believe).

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:35 | 3316069 silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

1 in 4 were on welfare in rome at the end also, ring a bell?

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:53 | 3315884 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

 

 

by Atomizer
on Fri, 05/13/2011 - 23:42
#1273725

 

Mr. Blinder, you never got back to me. Do you have a committee working on PR spin & lies to address this issue?

Goldman is toast, these idiots will find out that their usefulness to front the agenda has expired. The war on banking control will be spun as liberation to fight terrorism/bank fraud/employee bonus checks. Mark my words. Goldman will be connected to a well known ME group sponsoring terrorism. LOL, God's work strangely will have new meaning. You voted for this regime in office, we warned you. Meanwhile Lloyd Blankfein, lay on your back and begin your autofellatio therapy session. Obama has you scheduled for 3 times a day for 120 days.

Nothing has changed....Timing over a new NSA fagget pink alert awaits.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:37 | 3316073 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

Goldman is toast? because of the good guys, or just another show put on by the bad guys to find another Lehman as the fall guy? HSBC was caught sponsoring such a group  -nothing happened to them. Why should GS be any different? 

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 19:55 | 3315890 johnnynaps
johnnynaps's picture

You guys are worried about savers?! How about producers that have realized that working legitimately on the books only furthers their own demise?!

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 22:36 | 3316198 Golden_Rule
Golden_Rule's picture

Fuck the poor people.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:09 | 3316850 DosZap
DosZap's picture

You guys are worried about savers?! How about producers that have realized that working legitimately on the books only furthers their own demise?!

 

Dude, they are ONE in the same.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:05 | 3315903 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

The savers aren't being punished because they are savers, they are being punished because they are the only ones who own anything, which of course "Isn't Fair".

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 09:29 | 3316687 Archduke
Archduke's picture

Actually, the not fair world is a lot more cruel than you think and goes against savers today.

if savers owned a farm and ran it and toiled and put their sweat into it, it would perhaps be fair.

 

but savings capital is the opposite.  it's a proxy for other's work in your ailling old age.

it's a privilege you buy.  you buy the right to not have to work hard yourself in the future.

 

save that that right has variable pricing and value predicated on there being something

left of a workforce in the next generation that can deliver.  get rid of the idea of entitlement

of return.  just like everything else in life, there's no fairness nor guarrantee of pricing.

 

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:15 | 3315911 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

"This has never happened before"

Oh c'mon Rogers, you ignorant toad-man...every country on earth left the fucking gold standard during the Great Depression.

"the people who save their money and invest for their future are the ones that you build an economy, a society, and a nation on"

LOL...if it wasn't for the people on the bottom who don't have the luxury of saving a penny of what they earn, you'd have none of the three. Blow smoke up your privileged ass if it tickles your fancy, but you will never be more relevant to the health of the economy than the people who do the work and buy the products that provide your profits.

 

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:19 | 3315931 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Give me a good bedtime story about Bretton Woods. Tuck me in and serve me a glass of milk & cookies.

http://www.trilateral.org/

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:42 | 3316083 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

What the fuck does that have to do with Jim's assertion that the whole world has never debased at once?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 09:55 | 3316711 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

You have selective hearing.  He said "For the first time in recorded history Chris we have every central bank, well not everybody, nearly every central bank printing money and trying to debase their currency.  This has never happened before.  How it's gonna work out I don't know.  Just depends on which one goes down the most and first; and they take turns.  And when one says a currency is going down the question is: against what?  Because they're all trying to debase themselves.  So it's a peculiar time in world history."

 

Your argument that it has happened before and it was against gold is accurate but gold WAS what it was against and now it's against nothing but other infinite fiat.  There is no numeraire, at least not one that is acknowledged, like there was before.  Now it is just a free-for-all freefall until bottom gets hit.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 10:34 | 3316781 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Moving from a gold standard to fiat IS debasement.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:28 | 3315950 nmewn
nmewn's picture

And if they didn't work to buy the products that makes some people wealthy would the government take care of them for life, for freeeeee?

Why...better yet, how?

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:34 | 3315956 CunnyFunt
CunnyFunt's picture

Be careful or he'll threaten you with hydrogen sulfide.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:40 | 3316077 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Would want to infringe on your patented scent.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:57 | 3316106 CunnyFunt
CunnyFunt's picture

+1
Lol
Brimstone breath

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:41 | 3316082 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Not if I had my druthers, but I'm not pretending that every dollar in handouts doesn't end up in a corporate till either.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 10:58 | 3316829 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, you're going to have to accept the fact that some people really are more capable/intelligent/industrious etc. than others and deserve to make a profit however obscene you or I may think it is.

As long as they are not "making a market" with the help of government entities I don't care how much they make. Why is it considered a good thing when a person has to turn to the state for their every need? Its why "poverty" should be uncomfortable, so no one wants to stay in those conditions. Warehousing people on the dole is not the answer, it has become immoral. 

And I'm not arguing for people starving in the street but I refuse to argue from the statist premise that "Look at this wonderful safety net we have constructed for the less fortunate" while guys are using that "safety net" for lap dances and everyone has a freeeee! cell phone, air conditioning, running water, food, trash collection, flat screen TV's, healthcare, i-shit and can vote to increase any of it whenever they feel the slightest bit abused.

They're a prisoner, better yet a slave, only the master has changed...its disgusting.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:28 | 3316890 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

I've never contended that the industrious don't deserve to make a profit; I'd be shooting myself in the foot, if I did, but when those profits come from your taxes and mine instead of their industriousness, it doesn't make sense to heap scorn on the conduit while ignoring the reservoir. I'll be the first to admit that there are many taking handouts they don't deserve, but until they're petty thefts add up to more than the grand larceny of the corporate socialists with their hands out, we've got bigger fish to fry. Please do remain distracted and angry though. It's an essential part of the divide and conquer plan after all.

Amazing that they don't bother to vote, considering how much free shit is at stake; do take notice of the people who make the most and their voting though. $1.5T per year to old folks who never miss a chance to wield their leverage in an election cycle.

We'll get a chance to see what a safety-net-free society looks like soon enough. Boarded up shops, bankrupted real-estate rent-seekers, and a whole mess of pissed off farmers.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:58 | 3316966 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"...but when those profits come from your taxes and mine instead of their industriousness,..."

Certainly, agreed.

"...it doesn't make sense to heap scorn on the conduit while ignoring the reservoir."

It's supply and demand to me. Take away the demand the supply goes away. I think we're saying the same thing, from different angles.

"...but until they're petty thefts add up to more than the grand larceny of the corporate socialists with their hands out, we've got bigger fish to fry."

At least we share some parity in the definition of what it is. Its really fascism...but fascism is socialism, same mother, different father...she's such a whore...lol.

"Please do remain distracted and angry though. It's an essential part of the divide and conquer plan after all."

lol...I'm not distracted in the least. I was against all corporate bailouts, from AIG to GM to FNM/FRE to C to BAC to the nascent bailouts to come by subsidizing the likes of Solyndra, A123, Fisker etc...which we managed to stop mostly...and not with much help from the "other side" I might add ;-)

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:31 | 3317462 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Yup...definitely some "vehement agreement" afoot. Just don't forget the subsidies of agri-business, fossil fuel production, the medical industry, insurance, and the MIC too. And while the greens certainly aren't much help in slaughtering their golden calves, I don't think the right did nearly as much in stopping the flood of hundreds of billions as they might imagine at their tea parties. Success means more than making the news, as any tear-gassed starry-eyed "occupier" can tell you.

I guess my main point is prioritizing fire. I disagree on the demand-side approach basically because I see that as likely to hurt both people who actually need and deserve a safety net and possibly harming businesses that had nothing to do with gaming the system in the first place, both through primary reduction in business, but also via fallout from elsewhere.

Nobody with SNAP benefits is responsible for Gerrymandering districts beyond recognition or lobbying the egotists in congress for loopholes, tax credits, or no-bid contracts for trillions. If you close down one avenue, JPM will find another one to collect their sought rent until you address the real problem all along...JPM and their ilk.

I suppose I'm just a hopeless "statist" because I believe the Constitution could work, if only more people would read the damn thing. We're one state-called national convention away from bypassing the clowns in congress and the executive branch.

Quibbly semantic bits: socialism...an ideology...fascism...a methodology. Socialists and capitalists alike can be fascists.

 

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:46 | 3315977 Ckierst1
Ckierst1's picture

He wasn't discussing the gold standard, he was discussing the destruction of the savings mind segment of global society, but you knew that, you just had a dumb-assed, socialist, class envy, POS, chestnut brain fart you simply had to share with us.  Crawl back under your rock slimeball, you socialist dickheads have already caused too much damage around the world.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:21 | 3316039 Accounting101
Accounting101's picture

Pure tribal bullshit! Both you and Rogers are still playing the 47% takers angle or blaming the economic depression of the entire western world on poor people who bought too big of a house.

No mention at all concerning the $23 trillion bail out given to the big banks in this country since 2008. It's considered bad form to bring up such things. The oligarchs just love tools like you.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:47 | 3316091 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

Play the middle against the poor and the poor against the middle = oligarchs win every time.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 22:08 | 3316139 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

"I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half." - Jay Gould Esquire

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:45 | 3316090 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Shows what a fucking knee-jerk hothead like you knows (answer: precisely squat). I'm in the top 1% and have been since Clinton was in office; now run along and collect your SS check, peasant.

He was discussing debasing currencies which is part and parcel of every country dropping from the gold standard from 1931 to 1936, but obvious relationships like that are too much for a mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging sycophant like yourself to comprehend...maybe the anoxia from deepthroating too much Koch has robbed you of the two neurons you had left.

 

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:59 | 3316107 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

Depends how far they dropped.  Gold was the reserve currency.  Now we have a debt bomb that is being ignored.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 22:06 | 3316133 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

The initial drop in the pound was 25% after they came off the standard.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 03:16 | 3316459 Chaos_Theory
Chaos_Theory's picture

Regardless of the merits of your second paragraph, the first reminds me of what evil hides behind the facade of "compassionate" progressives...a deep sense of superiority and hatred of those you deem your lesser mortals.  No doubt folks like you fancy yourselves as the guardians and philosopher-kings from Plato's perfect city in "The Republic" and want the rest of us to bleat like good little sheep to your wise rule.

When liberals (and conservatives for that matter) return to the roots of post-Enlightenment Liberalism (Kant, Descartes, Voltaire, Hume and especially Locke) and the focus on the rights of the indivudual over the state, I'll start listening again. Until then, I'm just building target folders.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 10:40 | 3316793 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

I give as I get. It's fightclub after all.

As for "a sense of superiority"...no, I started out homeless and destitute and have made a comfortable life for myself and my family. I actually have quite a bit of optimism left about my fellow man and believe that what I did they can also. Don't mistake the sardonic commentary aimed at combative twinks for personal psychology.

Go look at my comments on true libertarians for your answer about my attitude about individuals and the state.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 02:29 | 3318590 Chaos_Theory
Chaos_Theory's picture

Fair enough.  I will take that into account when reading your posts.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:37 | 3316912 Vooter
Vooter's picture

"I'm in the top 1% and have been since Clinton was in office; now run along and collect your SS check, peasant."

Oh, boy...in other words, "PLEASE LOOK AT MY PENIS."

I know it's hard to break generational patterns, but just because your parents were insecure, low-class trash doesn't mean that YOU have to be...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 12:48 | 3317062 Pareto
Pareto's picture

Bullshit!  You're not even close to the 1%, because if you were, you would never have posted such a fuck tard and inherently contradictory statement such as the one you just posted.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 04:47 | 3316515 Rogue Trooper
Rogue Trooper's picture

Tylers, how come I cannot downvote this statist trash?

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:11 | 3315913 espirit
espirit's picture

Buy now what you will need tomorrow.  Chances are that it will cost moar in the near future, if it can be had.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:20 | 3315932 TrustWho
TrustWho's picture

Oh, so, so true Jim, but Daddy Bernanke thinks you protest too much because he IS THE Great Depression expert. Just think, if Daddy Bernanke had been in charge of the Fed in 1929, the world would have avoided WWII. God, why are we so lucky today?

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:54 | 3315987 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

did they formally admit they were in a depression during the great depression? Because I am starting to think Bernanke is going to go down as an expert at avoiding the one we are in by simply ignoring it.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:11 | 3316024 CunnyFunt
CunnyFunt's picture

If that's so, he has plenty of help from the state-sponsored media orifices. They already speak of the "great recession" in past tense.
I can't tolerate their complicity.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:22 | 3316042 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

If you could avoid the senseless slaughter of 40 million...would you?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:55 | 3316958 DosZap
DosZap's picture

If you could avoid the senseless slaughter of 40 million...would you?

NOT when it promotes your agenda to go FORWARD!!!!!!!!!!

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:22 | 3315937 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Looks like TPTB are determined to ignore history at our expense.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:24 | 3315939 Charles Nelson ...
Charles Nelson Reilly's picture

Jimmy Rogers is one of my favorite's, but I'm not following his logic on India? Those fuckers will sneak the gold in and if anything the demand will go up.

Comparison would be us gun crazy fuckers here in the US. Look at demand since mid December.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 21:29 | 3316058 Hongcha
Hongcha's picture

I for one would find it intriguing for one of those WOG technocrats to try to reverse 10,000 years of history and come up with legislation in India to suppress gold sales and force their people into their toilet paper Rupee.

That would spawn the mother of all black markets.  It would be a fascinating spectacle to watch.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 22:01 | 3316112 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

As if they're holding gold has more to do with currencies than wedding traditions.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 08:36 | 3316617 Charles Nelson ...
Charles Nelson Reilly's picture

Yeah... Cause they got some much freakin rupee to throw around over there on posh USA style Jewish American Princess $250k weddings? Ask any Indian, gold is a store of wealth whether its a ring, necklace or coin.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:18 | 3316865 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Yeah... Cause they got some much freakin rupee to throw around over there on posh USA style Jewish American Princess $250k weddings?

No, it's precisely because the Indians have a long standing tradion inherent in their culture, to preserve wealth, and they are killing the Rupee's value by buying so much PM's.That the .goobers are cracking down.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 00:06 | 3316308 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

Agreed. The Fed could stimulate loan demand by RAISING rates, because people would want to get cheap loans before the rates went higher. By promising low rates until 2015 there is no incentive to get a loan, so the velocity of their free money handouts to the banks is zero!

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 01:51 | 3316392 Pareto
Pareto's picture

I disagree.  There is every incentive to take on a loan at rates where they are.  Problem is, as a result of the last batshit crazy credit fest, the household balance sheet is a piece of crap (insolvent).  They simply don't qualify, and even if they did, the price of the assets that they want to buy (stocks, realestate, etc.) have gone back up, so affordability is limited by rising prices.

The crash should have been left alone, prices would have fallen to the point where it became attractive and affordable to buy....whatever.  Even if you would have had to borrow at higher rates, the low prices  would have made the debt serviceable.  I see poeple taking on $300 and $400k motgages again, completely ignoring the burgeoning tail risk.  A 200 bp surge and they are done.

But then, I don't see rates going up at all......ever.  In fact, I wager they fall to 1% on 2's and 10's before they got to 3%.  There is no way, not a snowball's chance in hell that Bernanke or t Shinzo, or Draghi will let market set the rates because they know that if they did, the house of cards comes smashing down.  Far better to debase and monetize debt (not my opinion, just saying), and continue to rape the savers and fudge GDP growth then it is to bring on breakneck chaos from real and necessary capital adjustments.

Because we live in a sort of isolationist environment (where we barely know our neighbors), its easy to start to say to yourself, "geezzus, am i the only one finding it tough just to live" as you look around and see what appears to be everyone doing better than you.  Trouble is, everyone else is thinking and experiencing the exact same thing.  This is the perfect environment for central planners to continue fooling and fleecing the public.  Much easier it will be for the FED to keep the party going by putting more downward pressure on yields, than it is to let rates rise on their own impressions of the true cost of risk.

Crisis will come not from a rate rise, which is what David Stockman thinks will happen.  Rather, it will come as a result of a total loss of confidence in fiat as Bernake takes rates the other way.  The point being that the latter is a much more drawn out process than the former.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 03:42 | 3316477 Larry Dallas
Larry Dallas's picture

Not velocity, *incentives*.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:29 | 3316893 Vooter
Vooter's picture

"The Fed could stimulate loan demand by RAISING rates, because people would want to get cheap loans before the rates went higher."

They would? What if people decide that they just don't want to borrow anymore, AT ALL? That's exactly why rates are so low to begin with--no one wants whatever shit the Fed is selling, and the Fed knows it...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:24 | 3316882 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Comparison would be us gun crazy fuckers here in the US. Look at demand since mid December.

Not EVEN close to the same.

Investment not for profit, but survival.And to have enough of what you want to last your entire lifetime.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 11:25 | 3316885 Vooter
Vooter's picture

That's exactly what I thought. Does he really believe that if the Indian government decides to try to clamp down on the physical gold consumption of the Indian people, those people are just going to say, "Oh, okay" and stop buying gold? LOL...

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:30 | 3315952 edwardo1
edwardo1's picture

All the savers of the world have to do to put a great, screeching halt to this is stop saving in debt. Clearly the evidence is overwhelming that the savers that matter the most, the super producers, are well down that road. That is why we have QE__in the U.S. because the super producers are no longer interested in allowing the U.S. to get something for nothing.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 22:02 | 3316119 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

"Super-producer"

LOL

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:05 | 3316239 edwardo1
edwardo1's picture

I'm glad I could make you laugh, but it doesn't change the fact that

there are super producers and that what they do with their surplus

is decisive.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:34 | 3316271 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Real world examples?

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 23:42 | 3316286 edwardo1
edwardo1's picture

Saudi Arabia and China to name two.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 00:05 | 3316306 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

What road would these two be "well-down"?

China is still sitting on a cool trillion plus of US debt, but even that is only 8% of the total non-governmental total (unless you think the SS fund is going to dump Ts ;) ). 

As for House Saud, I don't think an economy of which 90% of the exports are a single commodity really counts as "super-production" in any meaningful sense. And since the price of said commodity rises under current circumstances, they are very unlikely to be motivated to rock the proverbial boat. They also realize that bucking the system is a death sentence when half the country is young, unemployed, and hates the royal family.

 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 09:47 | 3316705 edwardo1
edwardo1's picture

What road would these two be "well-down"?

The road of no longer saving in U.S. debt. The Saudis, in fact, long ago were instrumental in managing their affairs in such a way that their surplus wealth was converted into physical gold.

China is still sitting on a cool trillion plus of US debt, but even that is only 8% of the total non-governmental total (unless you think the SS fund is going to dump Ts ;) ). 

-They no longer save in it, and that is the key. That is why the U.S. must, via The Fed, engage in QE. There is no one left taking up the slack. Even IF Japan engages in large scale purchases of U.S. debt, their eonomic profile is qualitatively different from China's, and, as such, will not act to "kick the can" for more than a year or two, at most.

As for House Saud, I don't think an economy of which 90% of the exports are a single commodity really counts as "super-production" in any meaningful sense.

-That is nonsense, but even if it weren't, the issue is that the Saudis produce vastly more than they take.

 

 

 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 10:47 | 3316808 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

The Fed is buying Ts hand over fist because of balance-sheet expansion, not a lack of demand. Total net foreign purchases have remained strong and positive. Ben's just buying MOAR!!

It is not nonsense to suggest that having exports that consist solely of the one product that "sells itself" puts one's claim as a "super-producer" in question. Please point to any other sector in which the Saudi's have invested in their future, post-oil, that will allow them to continue to be a net exporter.

<crickets>

 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:09 | 3317388 edwardo1
edwardo1's picture

No, the Fed are buying Treasuries, as oppossed to their purchase of mortgage backed securities, because, if they don't-through their primary dealers of course- the U.S. would not be able to live in the style to which is has long since become accustomed. If The Fed stopped soaking up the sov debt supply there would be no one to take up the commensurate slack. It is the proximate reason for its occurrence and its continuance.

What the Saudis may or may not be doing with respect to investment is absolutely beside the point. They have a product that the world needs, and whether it sells itself is utterly irrelevant. In the meantime they have stored their surplus in physical. In that sense they prepared very well.

In any case, your question has been answered-whether you like the answer or not- and when the world figures out, as they are in the process of doing, not to save in debt, most, even all, of our present monetary ills will cease.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:09 | 3317389 edwardo1
edwardo1's picture

No, the Fed are buying Treasuries, as oppossed to their purchase of mortgage backed securities, because, if they don't-through their primary dealers of course- the U.S. would not be able to live in the style to which is has long since become accustomed. If The Fed stopped soaking up the sov debt supply there would be no one to take up the commensurate slack. It is the proximate reason for its occurrence and its continuance.

What the Saudis may or may not be doing with respect to investment is absolutely beside the point. They have a product that the world needs, and whether it sells itself is utterly irrelevant. In the meantime they have stored their surplus in physical. In that sense they prepared very well.

In any case, your question has been answered-whether you like the answer or not- and when the world figures out, as they are in the process of doing, not to save in debt, most, even all, of our present monetary ills will cease.

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:49 | 3315954 The Heart
The Heart's picture
"The same thing. There were plenty of countries where it wiped out the people who saved and invested for their future."

Weep America, yes weep. We ALL have been so horribly set up to fall. One has to ask, is there enough forgiveness in the entire world for what everyone has supported and allowed in this Endless Useless Warring for the profits of the few. This is the real issue and what is killing America. The Unending War.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq8cW9r-pDE

Sat, 03/09/2013 - 20:51 | 3315985 maskone909
maskone909's picture

Historically most wars have been of sovereign origin, right? Lately over the last few decades they have been of corporate origin endorsed, funded, and promoted sovereignly.

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