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The Demographics Of Bitcoin

Tyler Durden's picture


With the growing popularity and perhaps relevance of a globally decentralized currency system in a world adrift in fiat devaluation death-matches, it is perhaps interesting to understand just who these Bitcoin'ers are? The ongoing survey of Bitcoin users (here) has some intriguing results already: The 'average Bitcoin user' is male (96%), 32.7 years old, libertarian / anarcho-capitalist (37%), non-religious (61%), with a full time job (43%), and is in a relationship (56%). The biggest motivation for new users are curiosity, profit, and politics; and 39% of users do not drink, smoke, gamble, or take drugs. Just over half of users have mined bitcoins and the greatest community fear for Bitcoin is “regulatory/legal intervention” followed by ”reputation problems”. Overall more people seem to find Bitcoin intellectually rewarding (70% have learned more about cryptography) than socially rewarding (22% have made friends).


Via Space Druid,

Wait: If you haven’t filled out this survey please do so HERE! I will continue to draw on this dataset for future posts, and it is open for others to use, so by responding you are contributing to a community resource.

Some highlights…

  • The average user is a 32.7 year old libertarian male.
  • Top motivators for new users are curiosity, profit, and politics.
  • is the dominant community platform.
  • Far more people have used Bitcoin to make donations than to buy narcotics.
  • 39% of users do not drink, smoke, gamble, or take drugs.

The “average Bitcoin user” is male (96%), 32.7 years old, libertarian / anarcho-capitalist (37%), non-religious (61%), with a full time job (43%), and is in a relationship (56%).

But of course there is no such thing as an average Bitcoin user, and flattening out the figures like that ignores the large numbers of users who are Christian (20%) or single (37%).  Also by using the broadest possible terms (ie including liberals and environmentalists), you get a left-of-centre contingent with over 45% of users.

The arrival of new users correlates with price and media coverage, with Q2 2011 the most popular quarter for the question “When did you first install the Bitcoin client”.

The biggest motivation in exploring Bitcoin is curiosity (4.3/5), followed by profit (3.7/5) and politics (3.5/5). Trailing behind are practical concerns (3.1/5), challenge (2.9/5), and community (2.7/5).

The age distribution around the mean average of 32.7 is fairly balanced, with people in their late twenties slightly overrepresented. The mode is 31 years and standard deviation is 10.5 years.


Just over half of users have mined bitcoins, most of them as part of a mining pool. The average hash rate (using geometric mean) is 318 MH/s. The average miner has spent $3,188 on a rig, but the spread is huge.  The median spend is $500, 35% of miners have spent nothing, while 8% have spent $10,000 or more.

How does a miner spend nothing? Well almost 10% of respondents have mined bitcoins on someone else’s hardware, so that’s one way to do it.


As expected is the dominant platform of discussion, used by 76% of users. Reddit (39%) also had a strong showing, while the classic IRC got a mere 24%.  Google+ had a strong showing among early respondents which is now somewhat dwindled, at 18%.

The greatest community fear for Bitcoin is “regulatory/legal intervention” (29%) followed by ”reputation problems” (19%).  A large number of people answered “Other” and in the free-form field wrote to the effect that Bitcoin was too technically demanding for mainstream use.

The most common use of bitcoins was for gifts/donations (55%), while computer services was also quite high (38%).  Only 11% of respondents have bought narcotics (using Bitcoin that is). In fact the community has a contingent of clean-living ascetics, 39% of respondents do not drink, smoke, take drugs, or gamble.


Overall more people seem to find Bitcoin intellectually rewarding (70% have learned more about cryptography) than socially rewarding (22% have made friends).

Here are the other graphical elements of the survey in full:




  Finally, here is the obligatory wordle based on uers’ “favourite aspect of Bitcoin.”


Words used in descriptions of “favourite aspects of Bitcoin”

Words used in descriptions of “favourite aspects of Bitcoin”

You can also download the raw data to play with.  As the survey is still open, the data may differ slightly from the snapshot above taken after 533 responses.


Source: Space Druid


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Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:20 | 3317253 Mongo
Mongo's picture

Freedom as big as Currency on that word cloud ... Only BitCoin can do that.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:23 | 3317259 blabam
blabam's picture

You can have all the currency you want! I'll take the gold. 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:25 | 3317261 Mongo
Mongo's picture


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:30 | 3317283 espirit
espirit's picture

I stopped reading at "libtards".

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:20 | 3317420 SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

How would bitcoin fare in the event that gov shut down/controlled ever facet of the internet?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:27 | 3317448 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I applaude those amongst the bitcoin crowd who see the current system for what it truly is, and sincerely wish to rectify a tragic crime in the form of fractional reserve fiat circulatory monopoly, but I can't get behind bitcoin because it appears to be anything but transparent, and it seeks to replace one form of "faith" fiat with merely another form of "faith" fiat.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:52 | 3317511 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

So get the fuck out of bitcoin.  Don't buy any of it.  I want to accumulate 2100 btc, which will mean 10,000 people in the globe can equal my stash. 


Just get the fuck out of bitcoin if you will.  


As for transparency, nothing could be more transparent, TiS: Open source and open transactions: will show you all bitcoin transactions.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:35 | 3317623 SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

bitcoin only retains value while others are willing to accept it as payment. short supply means nothing.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:02 | 3317711 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

what the fuck


People don't even know about bitcoin yet.  When the Japanese and the Brits find out that hyperinflation is their tomorrow, they'll migrate en masse.    Does a single person in this site trust fiat?


Bitcoin is the new swiss numbered account.  Totally protected, zero inflationary surprises, and anonymous if you know how.  


It's for the rich and smart, not everyone.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:12 | 3317743 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

 "It's for the rich and smart, not everyone."

Man, it's sentences/phrases like that which set of the warning bells.

I'm not saying Bitcoin is or isn't [fill in the blank since I haven't remarked on its substance in depth], but those words are Madoff-rific.



Inner circle.

You should be so lucky.


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:29 | 3317775 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture


That's because you have to:


  • Take the time to understand how the internet destroys everything on its path;
  • Take the time to understand that gov'ts have crossed a bridge then burned it, they can't shut down the internet without major infrastructure and supply chain cascading collapses; the Internet is now one of those "hubs" described in the FEASTA "trade-off"paper;  
  • Take the time to understand one-way cryptography and public key cryptography;
  • Take the time to understand that if you want to steal a bitcoin, it's as easy as breaking the RIPEMD function of the result of the SHA256 function of the result of the private key; you might as well be the greatest discrete mathematician of all time if you can break these three tried-and-proven methods **simultaneously**. 
  • Take the time to understand that govt's transferred the risks from banks to fiat, and high inflation and banking holidays lie ahead;
  • Take the time to understand that 1 bitcoin is (today) as scarce as 10kgs of gold.  (5 Billion above ground gold ounces versus 10,881,100 bitcoin). 

Basically, you have to be at the intersection of understanding the antifragility of the internet, the robustness of cryptography, the fragility of fiat, the skin in the game that people into bitcoin have and the zero skin in the game of those in the halls of fiat power---all at the same time.  I talk to cryptographers that simply can't/won't listen to the fragility of the fiat regime; and I talk to major gold bulls that simply don't understand the difference between a bernanke buck that can be created with the stroke of a pen and a bitcoin that takes extreme negentropy to create.


Gold is valuable money because of negentropy, as the 2nd law of thermodynamics tries to destroy it, gold ignores it.  People have realized this intuitively over the centuries, and gold will always be good money.  


Bitcoin has even more negentropy, and absolutely zero use value.  

I never thought I'd be on the other side of TruthInSunshine, who is one of the best commenters here.  Call me Madoff if you want; you haven't done the study; you simply don't know what you're saying.  

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:33 | 3317787 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I'm not on any "side," I merely asked one question regarding what it is that distinguishes bitcoin from any other faith-based "fiat."

The response to my question was massive condescension by a few bitcoin faithful but some more concrete, even if technical, jargon-laced responses by others.

Again, I admit I don't understand the intricacies of bitcoin. I was merely hoping someone could provide a simple answer as to how and in what specific ways it is more akin to tangible, real wealth than other forms of fiat.


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:59 | 3317831 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

Nothing.  You are absolutely right, bitcoin is faith-based, and so is gold (i.e., those reports about tungsten filled bars are just one example of attack on the belief that gold is really safe).  


The two distinguishing features of bitcoin bits and fiat bits are:

  • bitcoin bits come from a trust-no-one network, where the systems independently verify *the honesty of every single transaction*.  
  • if a node of the bitcoin network (miner) explodes in 10 minutes, nobody notices, nobody cares, nobody loses money; while a node in the TBTF banking system, when it explodes, as one will eventually in Spain, Japan, or UK, affects the entire network.  


The current "bubble" is actually a supply shock from the reward drop that happened some months ago, and the scarcity is now being felt.  (We went from 50btc/10mins to 25btc/10mins; in 3 years and so we'll go to 12.5btc/10mins).  It's a reverse-QE.  Paul Volcker is an inflation dove compared to bitcoin.

In essence Bitcoin is backed by the world's only honest international banking system.  

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 20:46 | 3318127 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

we've had this debate before, but let's give it another go

In essence Bitcoin is backed by the world's only honest international banking system.

i'm hofjuden and i can create any and all fiat currency (frn, cdn, aud, euro, ..) at no cost.  i want to destroy btc.  what do i do?  i buy btc at no cost since i can print the shit left and right.  i drive btc to 1oz of gold for one btc or more, for example.  and then i start selling.  and i sell the shit out of btc since it costs me nothing.  remember?  i'm hofjuden.  i can print the shit to buy or sell your fucking btc. and i sell the shit out of it after you sunk all your savings in it.  that's why i am richer than you.  or j.dimon.  because i'm hofjuden and i own this town.  including you.  get it?  how's your faith now?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 20:50 | 3318151 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

>>> i want to destroy btc.  what do i do?  i buy btc at no cost since i can print the shit left and right.  i drive btc to 1oz of gold for one btc or more, for example.  and then i start selling.


At this point, everyone that sold to you has moved on with immense gains, perhaps to litecoin or something else entirely. 


What does the hypocrisy of saying "USD sucks and I want money competition" but "Nononono to bitcoin" tell?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 21:31 | 3318224 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

how about this:  get your savings out of judefetzen. stay in tangibles, use btc for trades; just like you would  any other synthetic fx currency; and then rotate gains back into tangibles.  would that make sense?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:56 | 3318393 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

has moved on ..., perhaps to litecoin or something else.

So hit and run and then move on to another ponsi, awesome.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 00:17 | 3318502 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

If people feel that the value of Bitcoin is fleeting and can be dropped for the next cryptocurrency at a whim, all cryptocurrencies would be doomed to failure.  Obviously, this goes back to the whole "faith" thing.  There are two things that Bitcoin has to overcome to get any form of wide acceptance as currency:

1.  Legitimacy.  Most people don't buy gold and silver.  Most people don't buy domain names and hosting services.  The first internet company that sells actual goods that starts accepting it as payment would signal legitimacy.  Very large hurdles, both in legal ramifications and otherwise for this happening for any large company.

2.  Ease of Use.  The entire idea of what a bitcoin is completely flips the concept of how people understand money.  Even if it were somehow easier to obtain, which it isn't, people still wouldn't understand exactly how it works.  I've seen you try to explain it on here to people of above average intelligence, and they don't understand its creation, its backing, or its lack of a physical presence.  I can almost imagine their eyes glazing over as you explain bitcoins are a ledger entry only and that the blockchain is just a giant history or every ledger entry.  Now try to imagine the average Walmart cashier trying to understand why he can use these to trade for things.  That guy is the majority of the world's citizens.

Assuming those two goals are effectively reached, the ban hammer would come down hard.  Precisely because the world is build on a giant pile of bulllshit and fiat.  You say they can't stop it, but they can certainly outlaw it.  You say they can't trace the transactions if you know how, but the people that give out physical goods as in (1) above certainly have to make themselves known to the counterparty, at least to some degree.  They could start making as many fraudulent transactions as possible to shake confidence in the system (fraudulent as in promising goods or services themselves and not delivering, see the RIAA and bad music files in the early days of file sharing.)

I want it to succeed, I mine coins when I'm gone to work during the day (apparently one of the half that have a job), but it's just a hedge against a future where our currency goes to shit faster than the rest of the world.  Yes, I could have gold or silver, but good luck getting anyone to agree on the value of that when the shit hits the fan.  I'd rather have a gun and a shitload of cigarettes.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 07:03 | 3318746 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

$1 = 1 satoshi

Deal with it.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:24 | 3317849 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

You're right, and it's good to see that even ZHers haven't studied it, because it means this isn't the final wave.  Not even close. 

I Wish for a world in which the blockchain spam issue is fixed (see below) and BitCoin can become as big as gold:  10kg/coin!   The next Rothscilds could be anarchists!

Buying a gun anonymously and having it sent to your foreclosed neighbors' house for dropoff: 0.001 BTC

A horde of skate punks pulling fire alarms all day at Mall of America on Black Friday:  0.01 BTC

An angle grinder for every meth addict in a city built around a military base, FEMA camp, or bureaucratic headquarters: 0.1 BTC

A banker's head on a silver platter: 1 BTC

Chaos:  priceless

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 21:22 | 3318203 JimRogers
JimRogers's picture

NWC, you're vision is interesting, but wouldn't 3d printed peopons make bitcoining anonymous ones irrelevant?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:44 | 3317896 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

Take the time to understand that 1 bitcoin is (today) as scarce as 10kgs of gold.

Then consider my navel lint is even scarcer.

(not to be confused with common dryer lint, mind you)

And it costs even less than $5 to dig up.

LintCoin, patent pending.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 19:47 | 3318027 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

Awesome, can you point me to the forums where tens of thousands of people are talking about your navel lint?  If not, maybe you just happen to be a moron.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:39 | 3318367 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

I was addressing scarcity.  Many people also talked about Y2K and the end of the Mayan calender.  Non sequiter followed by ad homineum, nice.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 04:46 | 3318646 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

You weren't talking about scarcity as a defense from inflation; you were being a jackass--and you know it.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 19:21 | 3317974 Vendrell
Vendrell's picture

Droppin' that Talebian thought process ayeee

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:58 | 3317927 Freaking Heck
Freaking Heck's picture


With all due respect....not that its deserved, Bitcoins have zero intrinsic value.  As a medium of exchange they will possibly last as an alternative only since the respective fiat alternatives are so horribly mismanaged. That is until they are taken down by the establishment. Think e-gold redux.

The only redeeming attributes to bitcoin are that they are limited in supply, and open source.

A good question to ask yourself. Those poor sods in Syria or Egypt who had the internet shutdown. What value were their bitcoins to them then?
Think it can't happen elsewhere?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 19:39 | 3318012 fnord88
fnord88's picture

Well they couldn't spend their bitcoins to be sure. But they still had them. They couldn't be stolen ( assuming the owners understand encryption and took precautions ) Much harder for the government to steal my bitcoins than my gold for example. Then as soon as they have access to the internet...they have their money back. Actually they have 4 times as much money as they had when the net was shut down. The biggest problem with bitcoin is actually what many people think is its biggests strength...its the hardest of hard currencies. And the evidence clearly shows people do not like hard currencies, they prefer mild inflation ( see gaming economies) 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:20 | 3317761 malek
malek's picture

And that makes it different how, when compared against FRNs, or other fat currencies, Gold, Oil, Shelter, Food, or Sex?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:52 | 3317821 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture


I want to accumulate 2100 btc, which will mean (only?) 10,000 people in the globe (WHO OWN BITCOINS...) can equal my stash.


But hey, why stop there? With a bit (hah!) of luck you may even be able to own ALL OF THE BITCOINS in the World... - just imagine! ;P

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:14 | 3317855 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

You realize that YTD bitcoin has moved from $13 to an ounce of silver to 1.5 ounces of silver, don't you?  


When will you take it seriously, when it's 10 or 100 ounces of silver?  



Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:34 | 3317887 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

If someone trades you 10 ounces of Ag for a bitcoin it's because they think they will get more for it from an even greater fool.

This will not end well.

Fiat will go to 0.

Bitcoin will go to 0.

Without intrinsic value all things go to 0.

PM's will last longer than humanity.

Save to pay the ferryman.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 19:52 | 3318038 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

That's what the people in Encyclopedia Brittanica said about wikipedia.

That's what the people in Microsoft said about Linux.

See also: music industry, newspaper industry, etcetc.


We do agree on ONE point, though:  Bitcoin is "just a toy".

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 21:13 | 3318184 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

What a bogus comparison: EB and WP are both knowledge bases - paper, cd/dvd or online, it's just the same - value is in the content, not the support; otoh, silver is raw matter with intrinsic worth (given by its unique properties), while bitcoin is just a virtual convention - it has no worth on and by itself.

If you want to compare BT, do it with Paypal, which at least shares its selling-point with it: being a facilitator of online trade whenever other means aren't practical/possible. Incidentally, PP is neither trustworthy (Wikileaks), nor really unique (we have much better/safer/practical option).

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:49 | 3318381 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

That's what the people in Microsoft said about Linux.

What did they say?

Linux/GNU/KDE, etc are neither distruptive nor ponsis.

What are you smoking?

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 04:50 | 3318649 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

You are not worthy of a response, but I'll bite for the last time: 


Microsoft is trying to catch up with linux, as their servers suck.

Microsoft is trying to catch up with linux, as nobody wants their windows phone crap and android (linux) has completely taken over, even beating Apple.


If you study a little you might even learn to spell.


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 19:16 | 3317964 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

What about never? In fact, the higher it goes, the less I'll care - basic rule of common sense, learned from first hand experience by wise(r) people throughout the ages, right here...

Still, yes, I am - they were like 20€ each some time ago; 35ish, atm - happy?

Are you aware I'm just as (non)obliged to trade against your bitcoins as you are against my gold? That's the problem - it ISN'T mandatory (and it would lose any reason to be before it could ever be); it needs to be individually accepted, just like even a cheque, CC - can turn it down at any moment, without any explanation. Fine, right now, it appears to be a sure beat speculation tool, but no more than any other startup market was (dot.coms, housing, facebook, you name it). So, am I being a fool? Will you be the future Rothschild of virtual (virtuous?) cash? Who knows?... Either way I just can't care - if they are so valuable to you, buy them all, if you can. I won't help you in your quest, sorry - best luck for you, though.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 19:54 | 3318046 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

Thanks.  Best of luck to you too.  Let the chips fall where they may.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 07:07 | 3318750 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

BTC first adopters and hoarders will be more rich than rothschildz, new era coming...

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 09:17 | 3318973 SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

If BTC was truly real money and a viable store of long-term wealth, the Rothschilds would already be heavily invested...

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 13:52 | 3319244 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

Yeah, they are the smartest of the smartest, with best genes on the planet, in fact they're the only one worth of reproduction...

Cmon, try better...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 21:20 | 3318199 JimRogers
JimRogers's picture

Free Bitcoin offer to Truth in Sunshine. 


You've been an epic poster here and I'd be glad to pass some to you for your efforts.


Just drop a public hash and I will reward your day-in-day-out worthwhile commentary on this website. 


Thanks anyway, even if you don'nt post a public addy!

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 04:51 | 3318650 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

Same here, $100 bucks going out for a TruthInSushine posted btc address, for great justice.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 13:47 | 3319720 The Ponz
The Ponz's picture

Nevermind my avatar and handle, I am TruthInSunshine. Your advocacy and generosity has won me over, so I changed my zerohedge account to this one. Please send your donations here:



On the real, the BTC community thanks for your advocacy HAB. Well done. It's a shame so many of the self-proclaimed open minded here on ZH are blind to the best weapon and investment available to them.


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:53 | 3317517 seek
seek's picture

The only thing about bitcoin that isn't transparent is who created it, and given the US's proclivity to use criminal charges to harrass anyone that brings crypto-anything to the masses, I can understand why they keep that secret.

All the economic changes, rewards, and accounting are completely open for inspection. Can't say that about central banks.

I understand your concerns about fiat, but bitcoin is genuinely in a different place than traditional fiat, as it takes real resources to generate them, and the rate of generation is fixed. Imagine how differen the USD would look if they could only "print" 2% of M2 a year and the cost of printing was propotionate to the amount printed. Bitcoin isn't gold, but it's not your father's fiat, either.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:19 | 3317575 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I'm not a "slider" or sockpuppet or some other instrument of malice who has it as a goal to obfuscate, distract and tear down bitcoin for some ulterior motive.

I genuinely don't understand what, if anything, of inherent value backs bitcoin or makes it fundamentally different than any other fiat.

I've heard and think I understand the claim that its critical difference is its finite supply, but is there anything else?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:33 | 3317614 SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

Agreed. I again don't trust a currency that can be rendered worthless by gov takeover/shutdown of its platform. If gov wants your physical they have to take it from you. Best part is you can defend it/yourself with some lead. Can't say the same about bitcoin.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:35 | 3317790 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

That's the problem with most conserbaaahhtives...they're smart enough for firearms, but anything even slightly more complicated and you totally lose them.


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:08 | 3317851 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Oh that's just lovely.

Well then, help this conserbaaahhtive out here then brainiac...can a bitcoin be carried in your pocket?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 19:23 | 3317976 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Can you carry a USB drive in your pocket?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 20:03 | 3318063 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So, I first have to have an energy source, then a separate device to connect the USB to and/or internet access in order to debit & credit accounts in order to apple at the local farmers market?

Why, thats just fucking commerce nirvana!!!

Please forgive me, this stooopid conserbaaahhtive had no idea it was this easy to overly-complicate such a rudimentary thing as buying an apple ;-)

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:06 | 3318302 Matt
Matt's picture

So, let me get this straight, to buy an apple at the local farmer's market with gold, I need to carry a file and a super precise weigh scale, and either me or the farmer must have a device to verify the purity of the gold, and we all need little plastic baggies to carry around the shaved off gold dust? Sounds simple to me.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:23 | 3318340 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Or you could just buy three pounds for four bucks and save your leftover labor in gold & silver.

Sounds simple enough to me.

You do realize that all bitcoin is (to me) is a debit system thats only benefit is to keep prying eyes (government, tax collectors, private investigators, divorce lawyers, anyone, etc.) off your purchases?

Its all done with after tax dollars/pesos/euros, same as any other debit/credit system.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 23:35 | 3318455 Matt
Matt's picture

Actually, bitcoin is not that great at anonymity; since all transactions are recorded in the blockchain, it may be possible to identify which addresses belong to whom.

Since the amount of bitcoins created is at a slowing, linear pace ( 2.5 per minute now, then 1.25 later, etc) while dollars are increasing in volume (and decreasing in value) at an exponential (and possibly accelerating) rate, the purchasing power of the bitcoins might be retained better than dollars.

This is the problem with gold and silver; for every day purchases, you need some even smaller denominations, such as grains, or more metals, like copper and nickel. I suppose you could just keep using dollars, but I have a feeling in the long run, that will be a losing game.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 02:15 | 3318551 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

It depends on whether any particular person is able to accumulate dollars (or federal reserve notes, to be perfectly precise; or any other fiat units for that matter) at a rate faster than the relative rate of real inflation, over a specific time frame.

History suggests that to try and successfully do so over anything resembling a very long time frame, amounts to an attempt to overcome incredibly massive odds against.

This is why I like gold despite being lectured by far more intelligent people that my appreciation for this barbarous relic is tantamount to abject stupidity; I know I can't eat gold, and that it even may not be an efficient modicum of exchange in truly bad times, yet there's a 2013+ year old chart that demonstrates that it has never failed to preserve real purchasing power over the longest of time frames.

I don't worship gold, fondle it with lust, or even consider it as an investment. It's one of the tangible objects that you buy, try to keep it in a secure place, and "set it and forget it," without any notions about raiding it and liquidating it to "make a killing," but rather, you can have as much confidence that you just acquired an asset that has been factually validated as something that preserves real purchasing power as evidenced by the longest time horizon available to any man who looks at reality.

(I honestly believe this is why many people who believe what I do have no intense desire, or try, to buy gold near "bottoms;" their truly buying it for the longest of hauls - who cares if it falls in value relative to another asset class or commodity over a 5, 10 or even 20 year timeline - it's something you pass to your children, grandchildren or other family members).

Will something radical happen that flips this real purchasing power equation upside down over the next 2000+ years as opposed to the last 2000+ years? I suppose anything is possible, but who would short that kind of chart over anything longer than a relatively very short period of time?

I also find it extremely interesting that central banks hoard it (despite their "on-the-surface" [ostensible] animosity towards it) and that nations are willing to trade their most precious resources, whether oil or wheat, for it, without any exception.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 02:24 | 3318587 Matt
Matt's picture

I suppose, in the end, it is all about time preferences. I personally have no plans to pass on generational wealth, although I do have a small amount of gold and silver just in case. While I like the general concept behind crypto-currencies, I feel bitcoin will either need to undergo some changes to improve, or will need to be replaced with a successor cryptocurrency. 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:58 | 3317921 akak
akak's picture

GMadScientist, you discredit yourself and your arguments here by continually implying, or outright stating, that the conserbaaaahhtives are in any way worse, or more blinded by their particular brand of selective statism, than the libaaaahhhrals are, and that the latter are not in fact as equally brainwashed by the self-serving, pernicious, divide-and-conquer propaganda of the establishment as the former.

Your red team/blue time mental paradigm is threadbare and almost entirely in disrepute in this forum ---- please save it, if you must use it at all, for the sheep who still believe that half of the population is always right, and the other half is always wrong.  I have unpleasant news for you on that front:  BOTH sides are equally wrong, and equally guilty of the sorry state the world finds itself in today.  Until you can recognize the truth of that fact, you will continue to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 19:35 | 3318003 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Oh poor flatlander...politics is never a one-dimensional, of course, left v right isn't sufficient, but if you believe the posters above me would not thusly self-identify, you're as crazy as they. I have not personally found the same level of anti-intellectualism and anti-scientific bias among people who would self-identify as leftists. Red/blue is not useful for solving problems of political economy, but it is generally useful in characterizing groups with the opinions they often espouse (as you've done with leftists and statism yourself).

Imagine a 3D cube. On the left face is statism, on the right is individualism. On the top is fiscally liberal policy (status quo), on the bottom is fiscally conservative (balanced budget, gold backed currency, what have you). On the back is pro-business and on the front is pro-environment.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 20:03 | 3318055 akak
akak's picture


I have not personally found the same level of anti-intellectualism and anti-scientific bias among people who would self-identify as leftists.

Then you clearly have not been looking very hard.

I suspect your own clearly-stated leftist bias blinds you to the sordid reality of leftists being as equally moronic, and as equally guilty of the collapse of modern prosperity and society, as the rightists.  One might bring up, for example, the average level of economic "thinking" on the part of leftists to make this point.

Oh, and just to reiterate the most pertinent matter here, which you may have missed, did you pick up on my repeated use of the phrase "equally guilty"?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 21:27 | 3318211 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"I have not personally found the same level of anti-intellectualism and anti-scientific bias among people who would self-identify as leftists."

Is it because knuckle dragging, union thug leftists have no idea what you're talking about when you ask? Maybe you should hang out with a higher order & class of leftist.

Perhaps we should form a Blue Ribbon Panel of the "intellectually gifted left" Krugman pontificating on economic theory as it relates to broken windows, shovels & aliens, Rep.Johnson on scientific geologic fact as it relates to mass & weight, with Pelosi or Michael Mann weighing in on the ethics of statist theft of labor & freedom for the "common good", in order to all settle all this.

What a wonderfully enlightened panel that would be ;-)

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:46 | 3317799 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

Say the gov't wants to get rid of your bitcoin, and the probability of their coming after you is 0.99 (99%).  They have to destroy *your copy* of the blockchain, then destroy all the other copies, in mongolia, argentina, tasmania, latvia, everywhere.  All of them.  In DVDs, in pendrives, in the cloud, all of them, everywhere.  A single copy brings back the network.  Not to mention that any attack will bring massive publicity and, at the margin, more and more people into bitcoin.


With 99% probability that they will get to *any* of these copies, what's the probability that they will get to all the tens of thousands of them?  It's as close to zero as you can imagine.   There are tens of thousands of copies.  With only 1000 copies the probability is 0.0000431712. With 10,000 copies the probability has 0.00.... (44 zeroes before a number starts to appear).


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:44 | 3317904 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Thanks for taking the time to educate us.


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:03 | 3318293 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

They'll just BRIETBART you... But WHEW, your digits will be safe...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:18 | 3318327 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Just spent the entire day "with" Gary Webb discussing how he managed two bullets to the skull on his own.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:24 | 3318343 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

PROMIS software.


The deepest rabbit hole you'll fall into.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:56 | 3317684 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

"I genuinely don't understand"

There, I fixed it for ya.

The Bitcoin Channel

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:10 | 3317735 seek
seek's picture

Finite supply is one, and the other critical difference (which is actually a group of differences) is ultimately adherence to stringent accounting standards that are enforced by the network itself..

Everything about bitcoin revolves around the "blockchain," which put simplistically is a book of accounts. This book is shared among peers on the bitcoin network, and to make changes to it, two things have to happen, one is that the movement of bitcoin between accounts has to be cryptographically authenticated, and the other is that the network itself has to verify that authentication and essentially sign off on it via the block finding process. Every conforming peer holds a copy of the entire set of accounts for the whole bitcoin universe. There are bunch of interesting side effects of this that result in something far different than traditional fiat.

Because each transaction is verified, one can't just "print" bitcoin (the new coin is introduced slowly via mining and is very controlled). While most look at this from a can't-print-like-a-central-bank perspective, far more interesting to me is it prevents fractional reserve banking. I know you know this, but in fractional reserve some smaller bank can make a loan in dollars that they don't actually have. That simply can't be done in bitcoin, every bitcoin loaned has to have been on the books (the blockchain) to begin with, and the bank can't just insert new bitcoins onto the books, they have to be mined according to the protocol, and that limits the introduction of new coins. So yes, it's finite supply, but it's finite supply without the possibility of fractional reserve turning it into infinite supply. (I am sure someone could trade IOUs denominated in bitcoin in some attempt to simulate this, but they'd be doing just that, the transaction would never exist in the blockchain, and thus never exist in the bitcoin world; the bank couldn't spend/loan the same bitcoin to two different people, much less ten.)

There's also some very interesting aspects to the cryptographic signing that are entire alien to fiat, but not the legal system. As an example, you can have three different keys (consider them financial entities) create a transaction, and have two keys required to spend the bitcoin associated with it. This allows the ability to create an escrow situation, where two of the three parties have to agree before funds are released -- but it's inherent in the currency itself. This isn't limited to just two or three parties, either. As a result of this one can create transactions with very high degrees of accountability and thus greatly limiting the potential for fraudulent spending. (As an example, imagine holding an IPO for a company where it took a certain percentage of shareholders to release funds.)

I could go on, but the point is due to the nature of how bitcoin is constructed, it prevents a lot of things considered normal in the fiat world.

As far as what "backs" bitcoin, it's basically energy. The cost of mining a bitcoin computationally is set by the size of the network (the bigger the network, the more expensive it gets, compute wise) and the cost of computing is set by the price of electricity. The costs approach break-even over time and has done so in the recent past, but due to the demand for bitcoin exceeding supply, it's a deflationary currency and the purchasing power of bitcoin is rising at the moment and is well above the energy costs due to this. Hence mining is profitable at the moment -- the network corrects for this over time by making the rewards from mining lower.

It's not gold, but it's more than just fiat, too.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 05:18 | 3318661 chevalier
chevalier's picture

Read this article to understand why bitcoin is a big deal and inevitable in the long run:

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 13:56 | 3319759 The Ponz
The Ponz's picture

There are many other advantages to bitcoin over all other stored value media.

Can you hold $100,000 of anything else easily in the palm of your hand? 

You could even reduce your $100k in bitcoin to physical writing and carry the info necessary to access the funds easily on a 3x5 card, to which only you are privy.

Bitcoin makes life much more difficult for the usurpers, rent seekers, and nannies.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 14:00 | 3319775 The Ponz
The Ponz's picture

Also think of the possibiliities in publishing. You could be tipped for your excellent comments. See what reddit/r/bitcoin does with their btc tipping system.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 23:19 | 3318434 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

"The only thing about bitcoin that isn't transparent is who created it"


NSA tracking, CIA hijack, Made in Japan?

Who is Satoshu Nakamoto?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 23:40 | 3318462 Matt
Matt's picture

SatoshiDice is a subroutine of an advanced artificial intelligence, which arose spontaneously as one of the less-harmful consequences of the United States' quantitative easing monetary program. The system exists solely within the RAM of an abandoned Nokia 3310 mobile phone which was left in a subway station in Tokyo, and powers itself by feeding off the ghost of the late Satoshi Nakamoto (who was in fact a super hot 20 yr old female Japanese programmer and exotic animal collector). While the Intelligence decides on its next course of action, it runs this SatoshiDice subroutine. Some people ask why Bitcoin was really created... it was created by the Intelligence as an internet currency which enables free individuals around the world to play the SatoshiDice game. By playing, you are fulfilling the Intelligence's Grand Vision.   - from

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:30 | 3317458 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

maybe the heavy use of bitcoins could lead to that

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:33 | 3317286 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:12 | 3317558 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

i guess your fetish with gambling, hashish & porn is in the minority; but i hear ya

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:32 | 3317607 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Are you going to follow me around all day trolling my comments until 'Fiddler on the Roof' comes on TV?...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:01 | 3317704 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

boo.  a little bit paranoid, are we?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:16 | 3317753 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Well ~ Since the answer appears to be yes... I might as well entertain you some...


Did you ever hear the one about the Rabbi & the donkey?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:34 | 3317789 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

no, i'm sorry.  i didnt hear the one about rabbi.  but please do make sure you drink your milk tonight before you go to bed.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:42 | 3317802 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

No bed for me... I'm pulling an 'all-nighter'... I'm going to watch the '10 Commandments', 'Ben-Hur', 'Schindler's List', 'Fiddler on the Roof' movie marathon with toothpicks propping my eyelids open & car battery cables attached to my balls so as to cure my SUBVERSIVE behavioral tendencies... 

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:08 | 3317850 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

okie dokie

I'm pulling an 'all-nighter'

that's what my kids tell me - march break, you know?  kids....

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:32 | 3317878 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

You can learn a lot from kids...


My childhood was wasted by being fed a steady dose of propaganda like Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK all by his lonesome, Amerika brings freedom to the world, & that the Apartheid State of Israel was our bestest buddy in the ME... See what hppens when you sleep?... You wake up one day & find out it was all a bad dream...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:57 | 3317925 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

yep, i can only imagine my kids complaining with vigour that their childhood was wasted by being fed a steady diet of propaganda like, osama b.l. was killed by the good c.i.a. in 2012, hofjuden were looking after our best interests, mossad had nothing to do with 9/11, gold/silver was a useless relic, .... and then they woke up.  and it was all a bad dream.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 19:10 | 3317954 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I don't know shit about you [or your kids]... But, speaking generically... I'd say that PARENTS have a lot to say about helping their kids develop their 'BULLSHIT METER'... I wish you the best in the task that faces you... I sincerely hope that 'YOU GOT THE TOUCH'...



Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:45 | 3317803 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Plus ~ Tevye's horse is broken down so there was no milk delivery...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:18 | 3317860 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

and mommy, the bestest,  couldnt provide some?

there was no milk delivery...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:33 | 3317882 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Mom's dead... 10 years ago tomorrow... I'll send her your regards...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:43 | 3317806 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Now, why would I think your post is more than a little rich?

Pot, kettle, black!

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 20:17 | 3318081 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

March 11, 2003... I'm not the one who brought my mother into it... Go back to your bitcoin mining...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:55 | 3317681 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Francis, these bitcoiners are more sensitive than the jews............

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:18 | 3317759 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I kno right?... I'm guessing it has something to do with 'coining money' [proprietary style]...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:19 | 3317866 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

They're "mining money" so they claim to be wiser than central bankers...

I have a theory, though: since I've never ever seen a single physical Bitcoin in my current incarnation, I'm guessing our miners are remote descendants of Middle-Earth dwarfs (or midgets), just as grumpy and jealous of their "shiny" stash as their notorious forefathers...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 20:07 | 3318058 CunnyFunt
CunnyFunt's picture

My bits-o-coin's spectacular looks, along with the fact that they do not tarnish and are easy to work, have made them highly prized for the manufacture of artefacts and adornments since human civilization began. Question to btcers ... how are electrons mined?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 20:10 | 3318070 nmewn
nmewn's picture

It only costs micro-digits to bring them out of the ether ;-)

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:20 | 3317578 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

We can buy Bitcoins with US$. My question is what happens if let's say hypothetically, we spend all confetti dollars and convert them in Bitcoins? will Botcoin become equal to the confetti?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:01 | 3317707 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

As Jeffrey Tucker just stated in his interview yesterday, "when you go out to dinner with them, they pick up the tab".  These people are going all be very wealthy.

The Bitcoin Channel

Silver For The People

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:30 | 3317281 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

when we add your survey answers to your IP address and index it against your address and ssnum and fb profile and bank act password and gps habits, we will have a better idea of how many drones to tell the faa to ignore

thanks for your service, combatants. and sorry about all that post-drone civil asset forfeiture.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:46 | 3317321 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

blabam!  I am 57 (take a look at that age distribution), so I quite agree!  I´ll take the gold!

While I am interested in cryptography and related subjects, unless you are VERY up to speed and very smart, it is essentially impossible to know what is secure and what is not in the digital world.

I hope Bitcoins works out, but it is EASY for me to see TPTB destroying them, yes I have read about their distributed nature (etc.), but .gov does have some smart people working there too.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 14:53 | 3317339 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

easy? how so?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:04 | 3317374 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

My relatively uninformed opinion only.  I am fairly weak in computer stuff, but it looks like almost anything can be hacked...

I don´t want Bitcoins, I want gold!

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:53 | 3317405 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

then invest in gold. no-one is forcing you to invest in bitcoins.

i don't care what people spend their money on. i do however care deeply when people want to dictate what i can spend my money on.

edit: LOL downvoted for taking a libertarian stance on a site that supposedly appeals to a libertarian viewership.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:10 | 3317737 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Peace bro!  I am not telling anyone what to do with their money, only what I do with mine.  I choose to walk with gold.

Gold and I are going to have a nice long walk together when I get back, I hope nothing slips off the bridge...

+ 1 for Libertarian stance.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:14 | 3317747 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

i wasn't really having a dig at you, but enjoy your walk! :)

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:36 | 3317474 Midas
Midas's picture

I shouldn't have to state the obvious, but you can own both.  Any maybe some silver too.  Even though fiat is despised on this site people have pointed out it might be a good idea to keep a few grand on hand for various scenarios such as a panic and lack of cash.  I have a few grand in bitcoin that I mined so where is the harm?  I have more in cash, and more gold than cash, and even more silver than gold.

One question I wish the survey had asked was: "Did you get involved because of Senator Schumer's attempt to ban bitcoin?"  I can't be the only one.  Cheers.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:52 | 3317820 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

The 22nd most used website in the world adopted BTC as a method of payment a while ago. This lent some legitimacy to BTC. The website is wordpress. The bitcoin store just opened. For the month of march all sales are at wholesale price. Additionally all transactions are tax free and there are no transaction fees as you would have with and a credit card.
every day brick and mortar businesses are adopting btc.

No doubt Schumers rants made libertarian btc users wet, but it was really just one more data point demonstrating the awesome power of btc.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:54 | 3317506 knukles
knukles's picture

An acquaintance of mine is a contract worker with the nosuchagency and says pointblank, no exceptions, no excuses, if you're on line, there is no privacy and anything can be read, rewritten, hacked, managed, modified, destroyed, redacted....
Methinks he knows all too well.
And by further extension, anything of yours records, etc., that likewise are interfaced with the net in any way shape or form can be read, your entire life history, information available, compiled as a complete personal financial, political, economic, etc., profile to those who want it.
Think that new data center in Utah, folks.

There is no privacy.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:55 | 3317518 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

well, if that's true, then why was the RSA-2048 challenge never cracked?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:08 | 3317547 knukles
knukles's picture

How the fuck should I know? 
I'm just the messenger telling y'all what he said.

And as for stuff you're questioning, don't be too surprised that "they" have cracked it, read every damned thing their little hearts desire and will let users wallow under egotistical self-inflicted delusions that they're all powerful and completely immune to the inequities of the selfish and tyranny of evil men, blindly thinking they've a shred of privacy.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:13 | 3317559 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

well, that's a possibility. it's also a possibility that your friend knows jack shit about what he's talking about.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:17 | 3317571 knukles
knukles's picture

Nonetheless I'll defer to his professionalism, that he knows since he's in the business, so to speak.  Not merely a casual observer of the human condition such as myself.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:14 | 3317561 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

I'm sure DEA is on it like white on rice.  It doesn't get any easier.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:15 | 3317565 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

that's called hearsay in court

I'm just the messenger telling y'all what he said.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:18 | 3317572 knukles
knukles's picture

So?  Take it to court.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:38 | 3317635 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

no facts.  he said, she said,...  who can say you're not making that shit up?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:15 | 3317859 knukles
knukles's picture

And therein lies the rub.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:14 | 3317566 SMG
SMG's picture

It's never been stated publically it's been cracked, maybe they just didn't go public so they could exploit your false faith in RSA-2048.   The CIA and NSA is always so forthcoming about what they can do right?  Also will RSA-2048 work when all the computers are fried from a virus or EMP?

Bitcoin will never be as sure as your gold, silver, food and land stockpile.  The only true way to beat TPTB is get get everything out of their electronic system, which bitcoin is a part of.



Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:24 | 3317591 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:39 | 3317637 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

it is a possibility that it's been cracked indeed, but the teams which cracked (as far as i recall) the RSA-640 and RSA-704 contests essentially never progressed further. so what you talk of is essentially a completely revolutionary method,

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:48 | 3317663 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

pfft, oh. my. god.

they just didn't go public so they could exploit your false faith in RSA-2048

unless "they" have technology the rest of us do not know about, it would take decades to crack each encrypted document using the presently known technology.  but, i guess, your retort will be the alien technology "they" use to decode rsa-2048?  am i close?

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:11 | 3317740 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

"get get everything out of their electronic system, which bitcoin is a part of"

Bitcoin rides their electronic system but is not a part of it, just as a parasite infests the host but is not the host.  To stop Bitcoin they'd have to destroy the internet.  Good luck.

The Bitcoin Channel

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:08 | 3317546 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

I hear you Knuks,

so why can't we get Obummer's college records?  There have to be a few thousand bored hackers on the planet.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:14 | 3317562 knukles
knukles's picture

Good question to which I have no answer anymore than to what shall happen in the morning. 
Nor do I really care. 
Maybe Neal Stephenson'll write a good one about it.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:17 | 3317413 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

you can also tell by the relatively negative opinion zh commenters have of bitcoin that the average age of zh commenters is well over the average age of btc users.  it should be no surprise that the younger population would have a higher btc adoption rate since the computer age is all we know.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:24 | 3317434 Scro
Scro's picture

I can tell by the age of BITCON users that they are fools.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:31 | 3317464 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

but dont forget that your generation (50+) introduced computers to those fools when you were fools aged 20-30

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:53 | 3317516 Scro
Scro's picture

Lol, I'm not even close to 50, I'm just not a fool.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:59 | 3317528 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:35 | 3317622 Scro
Scro's picture

If you think 49 is not even close to 50 that explains a lot.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:56 | 3317675 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

i see.  you're a female over 50. thanks for sharing that.  what else can you tell us about yourself?

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 17:31 | 3320685 Haole
Haole's picture

...and if you are in fact a fool, how would you know or make a self-determination that you are a fool or not? The fact you're sure you're not a fool says it all...

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:47 | 3317499 AndrewJackson
AndrewJackson's picture

Hey not all the younglings have been convinced of the castle in the sky.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:13 | 3317551 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Ways in which gold is better than bitcoin:


  • It will survive the complete loss of the internet (but in most scenarios involving complete loss of the internet, loss of investments will be a lesser worry). 
  • Gold can't be stolen by an exchange hack or a keylogging wallet grabber.
  • Better liquidity (for now)
  • Gold doesn't get bogged down by blockchain spam.
  • Gold doesn't die with your hard drive.
  • If bought it from a coin shop, gold is more anonymous than BitCoin.
  • 5000 years of tradition, made in the heart of a supernova, no benefit to early adopters, etc.
  • Mmmmm, shinyyyyy!

Ways in which bitcoin is better than gold:

  • You can stuff it through a T1 line without using a centralized intermediary like digital gold.
  • It is so easy to arrange payment that you can buy all sorts of dodgy shit with it.  Try getting an AK-47 dropped off at your foreclosed neighbor's house if you pay with gold. 
  • Anarchists have a significant fraction of the BTC.  Rothschilds have a significant fraction of the gold.  BTC could ultimately be used to sow mayhem all around the world.  Which currency would you rather have on top?
  • After the mining runs out, the amount of BTC will be fixed.  This (plus deaths and smashed hard drives) make BTC even more deflationary than gold.  Good for saving.
  • You can encrypt your data and smuggle your wealth out of America.  With a large amount of gold, you are unlikely to get past the TSA.
  • If you encrypt your data, you can bury your wealth in multiple places and not worry about losing it.  It's as simple as making copies of archival quality DVDs.
  • Even if you keep your DVDs in a safe, you can use steganography to make them appear to be full of family photos.  Worthless to thieves and confiscators.
  • Much easier to make change in BTC than in gold.
  • No tungsten.
  • No elaborate mechanisms of paper manipulation.
  • No risk of being invaded if your country has too much (BTC too easy to move/hide).
  • BitCoin has much more of a run left in it if it becomes a major international currency.  There is only one BTC per couple hundred oz of gold. 
Sun, 03/10/2013 - 16:59 | 3317694 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Bitcoin being finite means that it has all the deflationary properties of gold without the fallback of storing real physical abor.  You don't MINE btc, you create digtized cyphers with a little black box.  Bitcoin is a simply a closed fiat loop.  Happy trading when you hit a deflationary singularity and no one can possibly accept the resultant price distortions in real trade when you can just take your ball and go home.  It is over-designed scrip with the nifty advantage that your purchase of mining hardware simply offloads processing power for whatever techie queen bee is lurking in some SF warehouse with some kind of inevitability matrix in which all btc eventually are to find their way back to the queen.

Tell me I'm wrong, just no ad hominem because I'm not checking back in to this thread.






Sun, 03/10/2013 - 20:29 | 3318106 fnord88
fnord88's picture

you are not wrong. I like bitcoin and have some, though only a fraction of my gold and silver pile. The fact is though it is very deflationary, and although i personally like deflation, it would seem most people do not. Another big problem many bitcoin's do not address is how small it is. Total value of all bitcoins is like $400 million. The government could buy them all and repeatedly crash the price as they saw fit, although people like me who are expecting it could get very rich off the instability.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:24 | 3317768 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

"If bought it from a coin shop, gold is more anonymous than BitCoin."

Many local coin shops require you to provide a copy of your drivers license.  You can buy bitcoins with cash at your local CVS:

Bitinstant Tutorial
Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:19 | 3317867 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

Many local coin shops require you to provide a copy of your drivers license.

So don't go back to those LCS's.

FRN's (or other forms of PM's) only, no SSN's or other info.

It's so easy a barbarian could (did) do it.


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 18:14 | 3317856 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

"Much easier to make change in BTC than in gold."

It's easy to make change in silver and nickels at the farmer's market.

For some reason they won't take bitcoin, though.


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 21:42 | 3318242 Haole
Haole's picture

I'm amazed that people still take the time to make a bit of a case for Bitcoin on ZH anymore but good on ya' for trying.

The article is essentially rhetoric given the size of the sample unless I'm missing something.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 13:44 | 3319705 awaken
awaken's picture

You cannot move large amounts of cash or precious metals out of a country when capital controls are imposed, however you can with digital currencies. I truly believe that the current system will self implode, but what will take its place? Will gold, silver, and barter suffice to facilitate transactions? I doubt it, but if you believe so, then expect a dark ages-like era to loom for a very long time. Hopefully your bullion, beans, and bullets will sustain you and that you remain safe from like-minded individuals who placed a slightly more emphasis on bullets. I'm a true believer myself in hard money based on its history and it being tangible, but I'm also a true believer in Mises's Regression Theorem that money is subjective. One thing we could probably agree on is money is whatever the market deems it to be and Bitcoin as well as the new and improved version of it, Ripple, has proven that.  Money is organic and if one day the statist impose a modern Presidential Executive Order 6102, how else can one resist?  Freedom=competing currencies.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:22 | 3317431 Scro
Scro's picture


Sun, 03/10/2013 - 15:24 | 3317441 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Smart man.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 17:16 | 3317610 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

To noobs:

XenoFrog comes out on every BitCoin thread and generously spends the entire day trying to protect us from ourselves.  She encourages us to keep our money in banks because they are so much safer.

XenoFrog also spends an inordinate amount of time bashing 9/11 truthers.

This should tell you what you need to know:  Bitcoin and 9/11 truth are so dangerous that the puppetmasters pay shills to ridicule anyone who gets too close.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 02:28 | 3318589 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

I do not encourage people to keep money in banks. I do however like to come and speak a little truth as people like you try to fleece people out of their money by playing upon their justifiable distrust of the system.

Also, 9/11 truthers deserve all the bashing they get. You morons give ZH a bad name and are seriously making me reconsider my stances on issues where we do agree.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 16:58 | 3320585 Haole
Haole's picture

Everything you type is utter bullshit of the highest order.

If you're not being paid handsomely for it all then you are literally fucked and a waste of oxygen.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:24 | 3318254 Haole
Haole's picture

Yeah, 400% increase in real valuation against everything in four months would be hard to live with alright. /sarc

You've a consumate blue pill Fiat shill telling you you're smart... That does not reflect well on either of you to say the least. Lulz for sure.

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:29 | 3318351 Lost Wages
Lost Wages's picture

Butt Coin + Shit Coin = BitCoin

Sun, 03/10/2013 - 22:41 | 3318362 Haole
Haole's picture

Whatever you say, you've lost more than wages and are enjoying the ride being some peanut gallery loose cannon on ZH apparently... That is what this place has been reduced to unfortunately but thanks for reinforcing the point. I expect your intelligent comment will garner many up votes. Lulz

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 02:29 | 3318591 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Tell that to the people who bought into bitcoin at $30 before the first crash and ended up selling out at $6 in frustration after dingbats like you told them it was going to the moon!

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 10:00 | 3319078 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

They could have held on to their bitcoins and now they are worth $17 more per BTC than they paid for them.

Mon, 03/11/2013 - 11:21 | 3319287 Haole
Haole's picture

Countering rhetorical BS with logic and obvious fact doesn't seem to compute with some on here even when hit in the face with obvious pies...

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!