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The Demographics Of Bitcoin
With the growing popularity and perhaps relevance of a globally decentralized currency system in a world adrift in fiat devaluation death-matches, it is perhaps interesting to understand just who these Bitcoin'ers are? The ongoing survey of Bitcoin users (here) has some intriguing results already: The 'average Bitcoin user' is male (96%), 32.7 years old, libertarian / anarcho-capitalist (37%), non-religious (61%), with a full time job (43%), and is in a relationship (56%). The biggest motivation for new users are curiosity, profit, and politics; and 39% of users do not drink, smoke, gamble, or take drugs. Just over half of users have mined bitcoins and the greatest community fear for Bitcoin is “regulatory/legal intervention” followed by ”reputation problems”. Overall more people seem to find Bitcoin intellectually rewarding (70% have learned more about cryptography) than socially rewarding (22% have made friends).
Wait: If you haven’t filled out this survey please do so HERE! I will continue to draw on this dataset for future posts, and it is open for others to use, so by responding you are contributing to a community resource.
Some highlights…
- The average user is a 32.7 year old libertarian male.
- Top motivators for new users are curiosity, profit, and politics.
- Bitcointalk.org is the dominant community platform.
- Far more people have used Bitcoin to make donations than to buy narcotics.
- 39% of users do not drink, smoke, gamble, or take drugs.
The “average Bitcoin user” is male (96%), 32.7 years old, libertarian / anarcho-capitalist (37%), non-religious (61%), with a full time job (43%), and is in a relationship (56%).
But of course there is no such thing as an average Bitcoin user, and flattening out the figures like that ignores the large numbers of users who are Christian (20%) or single (37%). Also by using the broadest possible terms (ie including liberals and environmentalists), you get a left-of-centre contingent with over 45% of users.
The arrival of new users correlates with price and media coverage, with Q2 2011 the most popular quarter for the question “When did you first install the Bitcoin client”.
The biggest motivation in exploring Bitcoin is curiosity (4.3/5), followed by profit (3.7/5) and politics (3.5/5). Trailing behind are practical concerns (3.1/5), challenge (2.9/5), and community (2.7/5).
The age distribution around the mean average of 32.7 is fairly balanced, with people in their late twenties slightly overrepresented. The mode is 31 years and standard deviation is 10.5 years.
Miners
Just over half of users have mined bitcoins, most of them as part of a mining pool. The average hash rate (using geometric mean) is 318 MH/s. The average miner has spent $3,188 on a rig, but the spread is huge. The median spend is $500, 35% of miners have spent nothing, while 8% have spent $10,000 or more.
How does a miner spend nothing? Well almost 10% of respondents have mined bitcoins on someone else’s hardware, so that’s one way to do it.
Community
As expected Bitcointalk.org is the dominant platform of discussion, used by 76% of users. Reddit (39%) also had a strong showing, while the classic IRC got a mere 24%. Google+ had a strong showing among early respondents which is now somewhat dwindled, at 18%.
The greatest community fear for Bitcoin is “regulatory/legal intervention” (29%) followed by ”reputation problems” (19%). A large number of people answered “Other” and in the free-form field wrote to the effect that Bitcoin was too technically demanding for mainstream use.
The most common use of bitcoins was for gifts/donations (55%), while computer services was also quite high (38%). Only 11% of respondents have bought narcotics (using Bitcoin that is). In fact the community has a contingent of clean-living ascetics, 39% of respondents do not drink, smoke, take drugs, or gamble.
Overall more people seem to find Bitcoin intellectually rewarding (70% have learned more about cryptography) than socially rewarding (22% have made friends).
Here are the other graphical elements of the survey in full:
Finally, here is the obligatory wordle based on uers’ “favourite aspect of Bitcoin.”
Words used in descriptions of “favourite aspects of Bitcoin”
You can also download the raw data to play with. As the survey is still open, the data may differ slightly from the snapshot above taken after 533 responses.
Source: Space Druid
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there r only 2 forms of real money...
Physical Gold and Silver...
Fuck Bitcoin...
now back to your previous ponzi programming.....
I will stick with the phyzz.
What a boring group that uses Bitcoin.
Thanks for posting that, what a revelation. In fact I think I'll switch my political thinking just because, like you, I think the only true happiness in life can be found when everyone thinks I'm oh so hip.
ZeroHedge comments section have become a bona fide fucking joke full of doomers and broken records for the most part and Bitcoin threads are the stamped wax seal on it. Imagine the disappointment when the whole world doesn't collapse into Mad Max and people can't stand over their gold and food with a semi-auto carbine fighting against the "government" in some kind of romantically cocked-up Hollywood hero fantasy...
I remain skeptical of a currency in which more than half of the participants are mining it for a free lunch. Sets off my Ponzi alarms.
until recently, it wasn't really a free lunch. electricity cost + investment was more or less equivalent to the price of bitcoins (unless, of course, you were so inclined to install a screensaver at the office you worked...)
regardless, then the bitcoins/block ratio halved, and up up up btc went.
it's likely that bitcoin asic's are about to make an entrance, however. that should take the value down.
ASICs will have no impact on value. The rate of introduction of new BTC is governed by the network, and within 2 months or so the cost of mining will be back at breakeven due to difficulty adjustments.
You can compare the process to gold or silver mining, the diferrence is that a machine must dig in reality, vs your computing digging in the cyber-world.
Mining requires expensive equipment and electricity, neither of which is free.
Look-up the definition of "Ponzi Scheme", learn a bit about bitcoin in the first place and then ask yourself how Bitcoin is a Ponzi Scheme.
Or not, whatever...
Socialists and libertarians getting together in a stateless monetary union....hmmm...smells revolutionary.
Bitcoin could be like Skype and file sharing and be around for a long long time.
Skype's market cap is, what, nearly ten million dollars?
http://goldsilverbitcoin.com
socialists? where do you get that from?
just wait for btc detractor XenoFrog to appear. she/he will set you straight.
Here's a start:
http://www.figanews.com/bitcoin-cia-connection-youtube/?utm_source=feedb...!+Mail
bit coin is a derivative, not a coin, bit derivative is more accurate.
that is my guess.
Tyler, why this fascination with this ponzi crypto-currency?
Funny how someone gets jail time for minting his own gold coins, but no one has been prosecuted for creating something that could be considered currency which may become competitive to the USD.
Very suspicious.
That's because its creator knew who he was messing with. He published the protocol under a pseudonym (Satoshi Nakamoto), released some software, and then dropped off the grid. If he had left a trail, he would have shot himself twice in the back of the head and then jumped out of a helicopter.
Whether you're a precious metals person or a bitcoin person or some other local, decentralized currency you have to realize that there is a shared value between the market participants, regardless of their preference. That being decentralization and removing the power to manipulate and control the currency. Sure bitcoin and gold are in many ways polar opposites, but they share a common goal. Just my opinion. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
""The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
Sadaam Hussein
that philosophy didnt pan out so well....
Olde proverb.
This is my take on all this chatter lately about the wonders of Bitcoin. They will do anything to get people NOT to invest in gold and silver. This is just another sign of their desperation.
cute little name but, look who is behind this, and who owns markmonitor, thompson reuters, who controls thompson reuters, Rothschild! Now why would Rothschild be so interested in Bitcoin? Hmm
Registrant:
Dns Admin
Google Inc.
Please contact 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway
Mountain View CA 94043
US
+1.6502530000 Fax: +1.6506188571
Domain Name: google.com
Registrar Name: Markmonitor.com
Registrar Whois: whois.markmonitor.com
Registrar Homepage: http://www.markmonitor.com
Sir, may I suggest you are misinformed?
I tell everyone that I keep most of my savings in gold and that what I've put into bitcoins is a speculative investment that may pan out. Nonetheless I use Bitcoin whenever I need to pay for something online because it's just so damn convenient and easy and can be anonymous. I really don't see how this could be understood as lobbying against precious metals and their validity as the best money we know..
In one post the bitcoin fanatic will talk about stable alternative currency. The next post they talk about the possibility of getting rich quick in a speculative "investment". Well which is it? Do you want a stable alternative currency or do you want a get rich quick scheme?
Sounds like Goldman
Goldman wants you to put your money into fake money as well. That you decide to shift from one fake money pool to another doesn't make you smart. In fact it makes you spectacularly foolish.
That from a confirmed authority in idiocy with a double major in spectacular foolishness.
On schedule, I see.
http://www.zerohedge.com/search/user_comments?name=XenoFrog
Yeah Yeah, everyone who doesn't agree with you must be some paid CIA/NSA/ZIONIST/NAZI/OBAMA shill.
People should be putting their money into real things like Gold and Silver, not your idiotic bitcoins that will simply be stolen or rendered untradable as the websites that traffic in them are routinely "hacked"*
*The people running the website simply empty user wallets and say they were hacked
http://www.ecb.int/pub/pdf/other/virtualcurrencyschemes201210en.pdf
And an article from just a few days ago...
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/03/digital-thieves-pull-off-12...
Yeah these are SOOOOO much better than gold/silver. And it is totally a big fuck you to the fiat money system to buy into bitcoins that are entirely valueless except for the faith of the people hoarding them like baseball cards.
wel which one are you bitch? I would venture to guess that you are most likely a paid government shill/troll whose livelihood depends on the continuation of the government status quo and the corporate interests being exalted such that there will never be a cure for debilitating diseases such as alzheimer's or cancer because they would be out of a job. and what kind of an idiot are you to use the handle xenofrog. you give it away that you work in a gov. welfare lab and to post you're own photo. what a narcissist!
Troll be gone
Quote one "Bitcoin fanatic" of any credibility at all claiming BTC is a stable currency. Just one, I'd appreciate it.
...Yeah, I thought so. Never-ending BS rhetoric, big surprise.
If you want it to be successful as a medium of exchange it will need to be relatively stable, yes?
Don't patronize me with your diversionary BS rhetoric, the sentence was pretty clearly stated.
"Quote one "Bitcoin fanatic" of any credibility at all claiming BTC is a stable currency. Just one..."
Give one reference, link, whatever, to back-up yet ANOTHER untrue BS statement!
Nobody with any knowledge of Bitcoin has ever claimed BTC is a stable currency.
You and your comments are just one reason the ZH comments section has become a pathetic farce with regards to any Bitcoin discussion.
if this is for you
you may want to consider this chart and, technically speaking, gtfo of dodge:
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#tgSzm1g10zm2g25zv
unless you like catching falling knives
Lots of the big bitcoin supports only got into it the last time bitcoin was in the high 20s and are only now breaking even if they sold immediately. Of course they won't because greed is overpowering their memory.
I get that it may be anonymous, hazek, but am curious as to how it is easier than paying via Paypal, credit card or eft. Not trying to argue or criticize or anything... I'm curious as to what all the fuss is over and am only vaguely aware of how it works.
Getting bitcoins can be a hassle but once you have them it will make you giggle every time you carry out a transaction, especially when your realize you've carried it out as a 100% sovereign. I don't think I can do it justice by explaining it, you just have to try and see.
Monetary freedom, anonymity and/or "sovereignty" have no relevance or importance at ZH anymore unless it's physical gold and silver. An as of yet free market comes along and gets nothing but thumbs down because it doesn't fit into the consensually accepted collapse scenario where the internet is shut down by a massive EMP and/or the "government" and people are trading pieces of precious metals for more food and ammo. What a joke. You're wasting your time talking about BTC here.
It's a psyop, this has nothing to do with the validity of bitcoin vs gold. jeez
how is bit coin not a derivative of the larger “money”
system/s which are “lawful”, for better or worse but i hear
the prisons are real and not just symbolic or virtual.
.
“•Traders who want to arbitrage and make the market. Trading futures contracts provides perfect possibility to arbitrage between spot market and futures market. Everyone is able to provide liquidity on the market on equal conditions.
•Algorithmic traders. ICBIT’s list of futures is going to include futures on commodities, metals and other frequently traded assets. This allows traders to build complex strategies and test them in real time without the need to connect to a specific broker. All necessary instruments for hedging the risk are available.
•High-frequency traders. Though HFT’s impact on the market is being constantly debated, ICBIT won’t prohibit high-frequency trading as long as it does not interfere usual human/bot trading.
“.
https://icbit.se/futures
.
bit coin appears to be an attempt at avoiding the the actual problem
rather than solving it, perhaps a virus in the form of a derivative that
promises to take over and reform the host as it grows. i don’t think so, more likely
it will be assimilated and incorporated into the larger host by making
compromises and being controlled by the masters of the financial
universe. why can not goldman sucks just buy the entire market of
bit coins, or jp morgue? and why can’t the price of bit coin be manipulated
in the futures market just as silver is?
you can’t sell trust to people who do not have the capacity to trust
anymore, and that is ultimately a good thing, it is the moment of
truth where perception and reality have a say in the affairs of the mind.
.
markets are based on justice (the perception or presumption of it),
they go together and can not exist without each other, that is free markets
or real markets. bit coin is corruptible as anything else in the exchange
paradigm extant. that is my guess and i imagine the day when it will be
seen as a speculative derivative that made a few fabulously wealthy at
the expense of many. as someone on line asked …..
“..
http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/09/30/2345206/bitcoin-gets-a-futures-m...
by Fred Ferrigno(122319) on Sunday September 30, @09:45PM (#41509861)
The US dollar is the only currency you can pay US taxes with and the only currency the US government issues debt in, so as long as the US government exists, there is a guaranteed demand for US dollars.
I know, I know, “But the US is about to implode any day now!” And if it does, the entire world economy will go with it. BitCoin depends on the Internet and the Internet depends on a functioning economy. BitCoins won’t do you any good if your ISP and your power company are bankrupt.
So in any realistic scenario where BitCoins have value, so does the US dollar. However, it’s entirely plausible that BitCoin will fail but not the dollar. Congress could prevent law-abiding businesses from dealing in BitCoins, shutting down the major exchanges and effectively isolating BitCoin from the traditional financial system. The illicit market would still exist, so you’d still be able to convert cash to BitCoins to buy drugs with… but most people will just buy drugs with the cash directly.
“…
other interesting comments at this link..
.
“..
by plover(150551) on Sunday September 30, @10:40PM (#41510139) Homepage Journal
Game currencies have their own issues. If the money supply is managed poorly, then the game will fail. Too tight, and players can’t afford to go on adventures, they spend 20 hours per day grinding away for a Sword of Boredom +.3141, with its special “tedium attack.” Too loose and every noob who can kill three orcs is swinging a Sword of Godly Smiting +5000.
The creation of bitcoins is similarly in need of central control. Set the difficulty too low too fast, and inflation kicks in. Set it too high, and stagnation rules.
My bigger concern is what the folks with plastic money will do when bitcoins threaten their livelihood. Not the Fed or the IMF, but Visa and MasterCard. Bitcoins could damage their profitable transaction fees. They won’t sit idly by if bitcoins look like they may do anything more substantial than buy and sell organic shampoo.
“..
http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/09/30/2345206/bitcoin-gets-a-futures-m...
.
Wealth Inequality in America
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
.
The Power Principle – II: Propaganda, Metanoia-films (Noam Chomsky et al.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=b1J9ybfRWSk&NR=1
There is only one scenario where I see this currency being truly useful and that is one I also see likely.
The United States fails slowly but surely and our currency tanks as the the world adopts the Yen as the reserve currency. As massive amounts of people try to dump their dollar holdings, at least the ones who understand what is going on, inflation goes through the roof and anyone that has any skills moves to a country that will pay them for it.
Just in case something like this happens in 20 years, I mine some bitcoins while I'm at work and while I sleep. I don't know if it will retain any value in the future, but on the offchance it does, it will be a nice hedge. Good luck leaving the country with your gold if the shit hits the fan.
BC is due for a short term correction against the USD.
Not surprised at all by this, except the women. Why is that? It's just weird. Do they not care as much about money?
Also, all of the people who will be using bitcoin to buy drugs, don't know about it yet still. Those people will help drive the price of bitcoin through the roof eventually, along with the hedge funds, the preppers, the savers, the government haters.
The bitcoin gold rush has officially begun.
Women will like if it's shiny.
With-out pointing-out the hedonics all currencies represent a "shared value",
until they don't.
Its growing. Plus everyone should have a copy of the source code so that it can be used on local networks if TPTB collapse the internet at the same time they bring down their antiquated monetary system. Don't want the banksters using currency to hire people to kill their enemies during a time of crisis.
What happens when the power goes out?
What happens if my USB drive takes a dump.
What if the only person selling fuel in town laughs at me when I trying and pay with 10100110011001010010.
What happens when the person who is in control of the matrix decides he wants a Lamborghini, yatch and a new manse.
Bitcoin is great for anonymous purchases of weed or kiddie porn but in real life or real times of danger I'll stick with hard assets.
Sir, may I suggest that your objections lack perspective?
Yes of course without computers and the internet you can't spend your bitcoins.
But honestly, if you are actually worried what constitutes to around 25% of the western economies is just going to wanish into thin air and the internet is going to get shut down, then I guess I'm confused what you're doing on this WEBpage and what you're doing with a digital bank account, digital bank card or credit card or with a digital paypal account. Would it not make more sense for you to go entierly off line and shed all of your dependencies on the internet, not just Bitcoin?
Bizarre connection between me being on ZH and not wanting to get ripped off using bit coins.
Keep your created out of nothing ponzi fiat crap, I want nothing to do with it.
And BTW, you didn't answer any of my questions.
You are weak sauce!
NO BITCON FOR ME!
You didn't answer any if his.
But as Pud just replied in this thread, you are missing out on the "8 bangers". You must be a fool not taking those opportunities!
/endsarc
Techincal question:
Is every transaction stored in the blockchain forever? Doesn't that make it possible to hose BitCoin by passing a bunch of BTC back and forth between, say, the NSA and the CIA, thus making the blockchain grow so big it becomes unusable? It is gigabytes already. I think BitCoin buggery hinges on the answer to this question.
As of right now the answer is yes and it is an issue that will need to be solved.
There are already a few concrete ideas about how to go about it (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability#Storage) and yeah you are right that currently a bunch of transactions could clog up the blockchain which is something that is actually already being done by a casino called SatoshiDice that's using the blockchain as a messaging system. Although doing this costs money but still it is an issue and it's the reason why I would never say that Bitcoin is perfect.
Thanks. Makes me a bit more inclined to put the gains on my small stash towards debt repayment (while keeping some in case BTC goes to the moon)
> What happens when the power goes out?
The power is up somewhere. Your bitcoins are safe unless the power goes out all over the world at the same time. Then we have bigger problems than just saying bye-bye to our bitcoins.
> What happens if my USB drive takes a dump.
Why didn't you make a paper wallet?
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Paper_wallet
> Bitcoin is great for anonymous purchases of weed or kiddie porn but in real life or real times of danger I'll stick with hard assets.
I buy hard assets with bitcoins. The bitcoins I bought at $3 (about 10 bitcoins per ounce of silver) are now worth 1.5 ounces of silver apiece. You better believe I traded some bitcoins for silver and hung onto the rest for now.
I just installed Bitcoin. here is my address
14KqQTyYUXtnHBPmQp6ukUNF1nGg3Hstva
Can you spare me some change, Sir. Thanks
> Can you spare me some change, Sir. Thanks
With Bitcoin approaching $50, the days of free bitcoins are over, I'm afraid.
You can find me or someone else here and buy some:
https://localbitcoins.com
Or you could sell something here for some bitcoins:
http://www.bitmit.net/en/shop/c/23-money/11-coins-amp-bullion
Some one was very generous and send me some bit coins. Thanks once again. Looking at the transaction, sender is "unknown" But thanks.
Hey, if it's that easy, anyone can please send me BTC also and thanks in advance!
1KoUXmUifWWC7aP9noebrHfDRB2pP955Qh
Head over to Bunny Run and play the Ponies, I mean Bunnies...
It seems the answer for recovering after EMP/power outage/internet shutdown, etc. is "somewhere" and "at some time", "someone" can recover.
What happens to confidence in the INTERIM? The first time someone/ANYone loses the ability to buy food and is left looking at their fucking thumb drive on the table---->major selloff at next opportunity to access.
STACK
The continual, repeated implication/assertion that people into Bitcoin don't already own PMs is yet another example of how ridiculously bias and ignorant ZH readers in general are with regards to BTC.
sheesh,
wait until it comes back on? if it is local loss of power, use your own power generator? use your solar panels?
What happens if you depart the face of the earth and nobody reads any more of your blathering..?
It seems the entire collective mindset of ZH has been focused into a very narrow view of what our future could hold. It's sad really because these are no times for cognitive inflexibility.
I want all of you naysayers to stay away from Bitcoin now so that in two years, when you're coming to me looking for bitcoins, I'll make quite a profit.
The mindset that deprecates Bitcoin is the same mindset that was saying, 20 years ago, "The internet? No one will ever do business on the net."
See how all the bitcoin shills come out of hiding whenever a ZH bitcoin article appears?
I swear... Tyler must do this for controversy and views.
I also notice how all of those who are utterly ignorant of even the rudiments of Bitcoin and encryption tech also come out of the woodwork to criticize something they know nothing about.
When bitcoins get smashed into oblivion, I am 100% certain that your bitcoin shilling will end and you disappear from this comment section.
> When bitcoins get smashed into oblivion
Did you tell me that in 2011 also? I recall hearing it then.
i'll be buying more
Last night Max Keiser was out in favor of Bitcoin in full force.
http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/episode-416-max-keiser-005/
Most people who are trying to look for alternative currencies do not do so for real profit, but rather to hold their purchasing power. The fact that making money from holding bitcoins is so central to many many of the posts I see about them (like another poster said), makes the ponzi alarm go off. A couple years ago, someone created the bitcoins system out of thin air. Now all the people that bought in want to demand that the market cap of bitcoin be equivalent to Billions (even trillions) of $'s or real assets. This is why so many people are skeptical. Although bitcions are capped by math, the fact that the system came out nothing makes many connect it with $'s more than real assets. You guys can have all the 0's and 1's, as for me, I will have gold and silver.
> You guys can have all the 0's and 1's, as for me, I will have gold and silver.
I hold gold, silver and bitcoin. So far this year, my bitcoin holdings have returned a profit in the form of silver which I got using bitcoins purchased cheaply.
Why limit yourself to one medium of exchange?
A wise man once said "my only regret is that I didnt buy btc at $5".lol so snarky
My prediction...
Paper manipulation will drive gold to $1200, while demand drives btc above 200. These targets will be hit by years end.
The best part.... With the appreciation of btc Im able to buy back my pms.
I've esentially doubled my wealth and diversified.
But hey... You can lead a horse to water.....
> Paper manipulation will drive gold to $1200, while demand drives btc above 200
A distinct possibilty. This is also the year that the Big Money Powers have noticed Bitcoin, hence MtGox's move to the US. They're going to attempt to capture Bitcoin by controlling the exchange rate. If we aren't careful, this is the way that Bitcoin will freeze in place.
Bitcoin 1.0 will fail...The current structure is flawed and the fact that most people are hoarding the coins rather than moving them around is already making bitcoins trade like a commodity rather than a competing currency. Hoard all you want but hope you can find a bigger idiot willing to pay the asking price.
http://crypto.stanford.edu/~xb/fc12/bitcoin.pdf
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/10/78-percent-of-bitcoin-currency-stashed-under-digital-mattress-study-finds/
A store of value doesn't "flash crash" like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1X6qQt9ONg
If you're going to link my video, then at least have half a clue what it is about. Those weren't real prices, the exchange was hacked.
The Bitcoin Channel
"Those weren't real prices"
Right...They were very real to the pincked sellers.
Trouble wrapping your head around Bitcoin? Reading the this guide (~10min reading time, easy to understand) will help you out immensly!
Bitcoin will fourish as long as TPTB let it. When it becomes large enough to even hint at threatening their grip on the cha-ching of society, an offshoot of the group Anonymous will mysteriously hack the whole thing to oblivion. Anonymous will, of course, declare that they had nothing to do with it, but the news networks will all tell you otherwise, based upon information leaked from mid level government sources.
Enjoy your fun while it lasts.
P2P networks are very difficult to disrupt, especially a P2P network using so many encryption algorithms like Bitcoin that require massive amounts of checksums to even be on the network.
TPTB have already tried to take the network down. They'll need to shutdown the entire internet in order to do so.
Is anyone able to provide proof of cyber-attacks against the bitcoin network?
The problem is , the bankers and govt try to control us to the point where they destroy incentive to produce (because they form bubbles in the economy which implode and cause devistation).
The govt and banks fraud is just too big nowadays, back when the banks were limited to a little counterfeiting here and there it wasn't a big problem, but now that banks
-Launder hundreds of billions in drug money
-Print Money at will (counterfeit on massive scales instead of just locally at your local branches in small quantities)
-Gamble with money that never existed, will never exist
-Manipulate prices in the market
-Create fraudulant instruments and sell them as "investments" aka derivatives bubbles and shit
-Conduct in HFT fraud/theft
Its just too much for society to hold together, too much fraud, too much theft, too much volatility, too many bubbles, too much control.
The real people holding this system up might....shrug... at any moment.
So fucking delusional. We're living in a state of fascism, you fucking idiots! If bitcoin EVER threatens TPTB or any of the TBTF, it will be crushed into fucking fart dust with the stroke of a pen! Try doing that with physical gold! Right.. This bitcoin hype might make a few dipshits rich as fuck in the short-run, but it will NEVER be allowed to lead to economic freedom!
How will they crush Bitcoin? Tell me.
1. make claims about taking down bitcoin
2. ???
3. profit
It's called a 'law', perhaps you've heard of it? They pass them all the time, and they mandate you to do things you would normally and naturally find acceptable. Here, maybe this will help: http://thomas.loc.gov/home/lawsmade.toc.html
If you are too obstinate to acknowledge that TPTB, by direction of TBTF, fucking own this shit, then I can't help you.
oh right, just like laws prohibit unlicensed guns, drugs, jaywalking, doing excessive speed in motorized vehicles, ...
Don't be daft. I mean nothing like that. I mean laws that protect an industry. You know what I'm talking about.
as long as there is arbitrage, someone out there will be willing to exchange goods for any other type of good
I don't need a lesson on trade, but thank you. You missed my point entirely. We all do what we want to do for our own reasons, and I don't give half a shit either way.
Those "laws" really put a damper on the price of illegal things, eh? Making desirable things illegal increases their price.
On top of that, if any government ever tried to make Bitcoin illegal, they'd be admitting that their own currency can be threatened by a programmed network of computers. The less dullwitted of the popualtion would immediately invest in the newly illegal currency as a response to their government admitting that fiat sucks.
Well, how about this scenario: the government passes a law against unsanctioned currencies. Now, if you have bitcoin, you are on the wrong side of the law. What choice do you make then? Be a criminal? Yes, I think that's the point..
Don't underestimate fascism or what it is capable of.
> the government passes a law against unsanctioned currencies.
And unsanctioned currencies still go through the roof while government fiat flounders. The government can't address Bitcoin in any meaningful fashion without driving the price up.
Have a little more faith in the market and a little less faith in worthless "laws".
Profit from it... ?
No thanks.
ok, you choose to go along with what "they" say. good for you. excuse me if i don't as easily tow the line as you.
oh, and if you'd be so kind to show how you can prove that i own - or don't - any bitcoins, please. and once this is established - whether i've been involved in any transactions whatsoever.
I'm towing a line? Fuck off. I have no interest in bitcoin, I'm simply stating the obvious here. I will say it again for those of you hard of hearing, "DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE FASCISM OR WHAT IT IS CAPABLE OF"
oh right, you abide by the law, yet you don't tow the line. uhuh.
oh, you "forgot" to show me how you can prove that i own bitcoins, and that i used them for transactions. please elaborate.
Let me guess. Your not an accountant. It's called an IRS audit, and until you've had you up your ass I'd advise you to STFU.
> Let me guess. Your not an accountant.
Let me guess. You work in a field that doesn't require literacy.
If you weren't so afraid of what the government MIGHT do, you'd be able to see what Bitcoin is doing now.
I see what the fuck bitcoin is doing. Righton! Go get rich! I wish you all the best.
> I wish you all the best.
Returned 100x. I also don't give a shit what people use as long as they're getting out of fiat.
My only gripe is the number of people critiquing something they don't actually understand. Then again, asking for reason from humans, especially when it comes to money, is a tall order.
Good point, and you know what I dislike even more? It's someone ending a conversation with, "you just don't understand it" to drive home some poorly conceived half conclusion.
;)
> It's someone ending a conversation with, "you just don't understand it"
A frustrating response, yes. But after three years of discussing Bitcoin with people that won't take the time to learn how it works before they start tearing into it, calling me names and questioning my heritage, it's better than what I'm actually thinking of saying.
To be honest, when I first ran across Bitcoin in 2010, I assumed it was a scam and treated it such for the first two months I looked at it. Being a geek, I can't help but play with networks. The more I studied it, the more I realized that I was looking at a monetary system that had a finite supply and was based on mathematics, not on the whims of central bankers.
But yeah, we all have to make our own decisions based on what we know. So good luck with your decisions as we enter the Great Monetary Apocalypse. I think anyone not in fiat will do ok as long as due diligence is pursued.
FWIW I too followed BTC for years before coming to a full understanding of it. I wasnt convinced to use it based on recent ZH posts. For all who havent done so yet check out blockchain.info/charts Ignore the usd price chart. We may be in a bubble right now. Instead look at the transactions charts, the unique user charts, and the volume charts. They speak for themselves.
I agree. Whether this is a bubble or not (almost certainly is), it has gotten people interested in it and what they can do with it. Granted, you still can't do much with it, but more interest can't be a bad thing.
why would they target me in the first place?
What? I'm sorry. Surely you couldn't possibly be a target. No fucking way! Nope, you are not a target. They wouldn't DREAM of targeting you. There is absolutely no reason to be paranoid, because they would never target you. ROFLMAO!
I notice how you essentially never answer a simple question. I'm sure this is just a coincidence, and hence, will here present the three simple questions for you to answer again:
1. How would you prove that I own a bitcoin.
2. How would you prove I've used bitcoins as part of a transaction.
3. Why would I (or any other bitcoin user) be targeted by the government, provided you can't prove 1) or 2)?
I'm not obligated to answer your questions for my point to be valid. Again, please, fuck off.
"fuck off"? how inspired.
no, you're not obligated to do anything. but if you can't even answer those very simple questions, then you haven't backed up your point at all.
Well shit. I didn't have time for this, but here:
1) Your standard of living outpaces your income.
2) You are reported (yes, it happens!).
3) An investigation is open.
4) The IRS requests every piece of paper and digital receipt with your name on it since your BIRTH!
5) Your accounts are frozen and your computer is seized when 'irregularities' are found.
6) Use your own imagination at this point - they can be fucking ruthless.
no, you're right. you don't want to fuck with the tax authorities, and being under their watchful eye should essentially be avoided.
but what you write could essentially apply to any USD-replacement. gold, silver, oil, diamonds - same thing. it's not somehow specific to bitcoin.
you just have to make sure not to be stupid, and hence, not stand out. if you make sure of that, given 1) and 2) in my prior post, there is very little reason for you to be targeted.
You miss the larger point: Bitcoin can't be traced to you if you do it right. They can never find it if you practice due diligence as you would with any financial venture.
This is for both EscapeKey and you, since your bottom line arguments are both, "just don't get caught". Check back with me and let me know how things worked out after the IRS sells your assets at auction. I may even pick up a few things I've been looking for ;)
Take care out there.
.
I'm not worried about the IRS. I have no assets. :)
Best answer ever :-)
There are over 300 million people in the US. 400 million in Europe. You essentially say they will target you, regardless. What you claim is statistically impossible.
Besides, look how much good it did the RIAA to target (sue) individuals. There's a reason why that strategy was abandoned. And that was when they had actual evidence of illegal activities.
unless you are one "they" cannot make an example of
and then you become "their" legal precedent
Yeah, just follow the preferred ZH solution to future wealth and prosperity... Hunker down in the cellar curled around one's gold, guns and ammo in the fetal position waiting for the entire financial system to collapse into nothing, the global grid to go down permanently and the "government" to kick your door in. Likely all at the same time... Lulz
Paranoid delusional morons are breeding on ZH at an alarming rate.
Yes they can be ruthless. Tyranny is usually that way. But you know what, one person may fall, but they cant take us all down. And they have no jurisdiction in the other nations where BTC is an accepted currency. Sounds too me like youre scared of the IRS. I WAS TOO! I still get frivolous filer letters and other legally defective instruments from them. They are the criminals, they are the parasites. Im not scared any longer. In fact now Im hopeful because I can buy shit. I couldnt do that with precious metals. PMs fuckng suck as a currency right now, good store of value though. BTC are rocking the world as a currency right now. Man keep learning. I sense passion. You read zerohedge so you gotta be somewhat hip to the problems with fiat. I cant convinve you in a post here but others smarter than I have written volumes now on bitcoin. Just keep googling and eventually you will come around. Just remember we.tried to get you on board when a single.BTC only cost $40 usd.
Damnit, go to mtgox.com, create an account, and buy one bitcoin. Come back at us BTCers in a year.
> you abide by the law, yet you don't tow the line.
These mavericks on ZH are real gamblers, eh?
That's the problem isn't it? To be a man, you have to gamble - gambling against the law makes money, because men have to have money I suppose. You might not understand, but you might be interested to know that some of us do not own stocks, nor do we spend time at any other type of casino or lottery window. Thanks for the so-so conversation Bubbles.
You don't make money unless you take risks. Hello?
Like I said, fuckit. Go make money, I'm done here.
no, you're not.
One thing to really be concerned about if you are on the bitcoin bandwagon is why are women not involved? 96% male does not exactly show a broad confidence in this system. Maybe this is one of those rare times where we should trust a women's intuition.
There weren't many women using the web in 1994 either. That's about where we are on the timeline.
The timeline you should be focussing on is 2000, not 1994.
http was developed around 90-91. Bitcoin was developed in 2009.
In terms of the timeline, we're four years into this, hence the 1994 date.
It's mostly due to technical literacy. Until recently only the geekiest of the geeky used bitcoin, and that usually means you're a male. As bitcoin appears to be set to break into the mainstream in 2013, I strongly suspect we'll see more women.
The other thing is that survey has some serious selection bias, since only ubergeeks are going to bother filling out surveys on a websites dedicated to their geek hobby.
FWIW, I was approached about getting tech-literate woman friend of mine set up on bitcoin just a couple months ago, specifically to enable online poker. As the ecosystem develops we'll see more of this type of expansion, I think.
Check out this womans "intuition". She's started the first.....
Well just go see it.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MPEx
Her user profile.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=iimt4l1ip1u51fe93ligddb961&a...
Her latest posts, check out the verbage.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=52741;sa=showPosts
Call me when the Saudi's start trading their oil for bitcoins............
Cashed out my bitcoins on Friday for an 8 bagger. Will buy more when it corrects. JBTFBCD!! (just buy the fucking bit coin dip) lol
So, it's just a pump and dump... not a currency.
Step 1: Collect Underpants
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmoCuA4-y9E
how do i "mine" bitcoins and why do bitcoin miners cost so much? there is an ad on ZH for BC miner for $650. also , can i buy a car with bitcoins? i admit i know next to nothing about bitcoins . any response that incudes links would be helpful
What? You want actual information? Most people who don't understand just say Ponzi and argue anyway.
Since I assume you have a computer you need to buy a high end graphics card. A Radeon 7950 might set you back about 280-300 USD. Once you get it going it will mine at about 550 MH/s which will gererate about 0.06 BTC per day. Last I check BTC were going for $46 USD per coin, so $2.76 per day. What makes the difference is how much you pay for electricity. I am not sure about this, but I think a computer with that card would consume about 325 Watts non-stop or about 8kWH per day.
My mining farm: 8 cards, 1250 Watts, .07cents/kWh and .183 BTC per day, 8 dollars a day , $2.10 dollars a day in electricity.
This is about 1% of what you need to know, if you are still interested feel free to ask.
*Warning* The price of BTC has increased relentlessly from 12 dollars and sure feels due for a pull back. As you can see, at 12 bucks there is no money to be made. All part of the game!
Real world stuff,thanks. Another factor that should be considered is tha bitcoin creation generates taxes that are collected by your friendly Utility Company. They are the product of a leagal and very well taxed transaction. The total possible number of bitcoins is hardly a concern to the Central Bank Fiat Company.
FD: I own no bitcoins but the first house I owned was purchased through a barter network.
i'm sorry to steal jam out of your doughnut
those would be your variable costs. how do you account for depreciation of your fixed costs?
I didn't account for depreciation, because you can guess that as well as I can. I was just trying to give a guy some back of the envelope numbers. How long does a video card last going balls out? I don't know. I have a Radeon 6950 I have been running at 84C for 20 months. I have a computer with 4 radeon 6770 that has been burning 500 watts for 18 months with zero problems. I do have one 6770 on another machine that has a clicking fan and may be on the way out. Most of these cards payed for themselves in 3 to nine months.
How long does a power supply, cpu, hard drive last? I hope I didn't imply I think bitmining is a retirement option. I made some easy money up front and continued to re-invest the profits in more gear. I haven't built anything in over a year and don't plan on getting anymore hardware unless ASIC becomes readily available.
i dont have a link or credible source for you; however, i've been looking into btc mining for awhile. after accounting for my time, h/w, s/w, v/c, etc.., i calculated 1-3% roi; which is a lot less than what you purported a few comments above. in any case, the return is still positive; but not as positive as it would appear at first glance.
I never purported a roi because it is variable depending on your circumstance. I told the dude the facts I know to give him a frame of reference. If you are a gaming college student who doesn't pay for electricity and already has the hardware, the roi is through the roof. If you live in Hawaii, pay 35 cents a kWh, and have no computer, it is a money loser. I got started in May of 2011 with hardware I already had and have been making money from day 1. Except for a few marginal weeks in the winter of 2011, it has been profitable every single day. I can tell you without hesitation if you are going to include your time, it is not worth the effort. Also, it's nice you did some calculations, but anything you come up with is +/- 100%. The difficulty changes rapidly as does the price. I do it as a hobby. I also garden as a hobby even though there is a hell of an easier way to get a tomato.
I may sound like a bitcoin fanboi but I should confess, I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE FUTURE OF BITCOIN! The reason I think it will fail is because it is too successful. The feds cannot tolerate a financial system that lets people out of the debt-based money cycle and will do everything in their power to stop it. I expect them to resort to hacking, fear-mongering, using the drug-angle, (its for the children!), regulation, taxes and just outlawing it. They have to, it undoes all of the quasi-capital controls they are trying to implement. Is it a coincidence the Senator who tried to get it banned is from the banking center?
fair enough. i keep this in mind: the fed, ecb, etc, etc., can print their fiat confetti at will. they can drive btc up to the moon at no cost to them just by buying btc w/ their judefetzen; and then, after everybody piles in, they start selling it (btc) like there is no tomorrow. and you know the rest...no faith in btc with that type of volatility
Definitely, it has already gone from under $1 to $29, back under $3 and now over $45, so it is not for the faint of heart who need to be paid. TPTB are not weak and if they feel the need they will turn their guns to bitcoin. I would enjoy it in a way though, it is an admission of failure similar to Nixon closing the gold window or B. Shalom Bernanke printing 85 billion a month. Those bastards will never admit failure, but they will prove it.
Hi Midas
I'm interested in doing some mining so I'm interested learning about in the remaining 99% that one needs to know.
One question I can think of right away is what OS are miners using?
At one time there was a flap because it was pointed out that some of the Windows code was titled, as I recall, "Back Door" and the concern was MS had configured Windows so that a 3 letter government agency could have access to anyone's computer through the back door.
Mining for dummies perhaps?
Hopefully you're still monitoring this thread.
Many people use Linux, but all my stuff is Windoze. (xp, 7)
What kind of video card do you have? Here is a link to show the MegaHash capabilites of various cards. (MH/s)
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
If you can't do at least 200MH/s it will be tough to get anywhere. Most people aren't upgrading video cards because of the threat of technology changing ASICs (Application Specific Integrated Circuit). These devices will seriously out-gun GPUs which will no longer be cost effective. I am looking to get an ASIC myself, but there are no reliable ways to get one yet. The BitMiner Abides...
First, the miner you see the ads for here doesn't even exist yet. Though they finally got their chips back, so maybe in a week or two. The waiting list is months long, it won't be very profitable by the time something ordered today would arrive.
Right now the lowest barrier to entry to mine bitcoins is to use a GPU in a PC, if you have anything remotely current, you should be able to run the mining software. The payout will be very low; I have a rig with two very high end graphics cards and I generate about 0.1 BTC a day right now, and it will only go lower as the ASIC miners come online. It's more cost effective to buy bitcoin these days.
It is possible to buy a car with bitcoins directly, but the offers are few (mostly on craigslist). More likely you'd have to use an intermediary. We're early in the growth of the ecosystem, so the large purchase infrastructure really isn't there. For smaller items, however, there are bitcoin stores and services that will let you buy items from web sites using bitcoin.
While something about it just doesnt seem right to me, I sincerely wish all involved in BTC the best of luck.
From what I've read, you can buy a rig for $1k that mines a couple of em per day. My buddy doesnt pay elec bills in his apartment and is interested, I keep trying to convince him to buy a machine. If it pays for itself in a few months, why not? Trade em for PM's and your 'golden' (silveren?).
I dont really get all the outright hostility to it. Sure it smells like a Ponzi, it has inherent issues because of its reliance on the 'net, its created from nothing etc, but still. If people want to play around with an 'alternative' fiat, why not? I say go for it.