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Beppe Grillo: "Italy Is Already De Facto Out Of The Euro"

Tyler Durden's picture


In a preview of an interview he will conduct today with German's Handelsblatt, the surprise winner of last month's Italian elections Beppe Grillo said that Italy is “already de facto” outside the euro and runs the risk of being “dropped” by the region’s wealthiest members as soon as their banks recoup what they invested in the nation’s bonds. His suggestion - the same that got Greece's G-Pap promptle sacked in late 2011 - a popular referendum to decide if Italy should remain in the Eurozone. Grillo's best line, however, was saved for Mario Monti: "he is a bankruptcy trustee on behalf of the banks" which is perhaps the most astute description we have read of the former Goldman operative ever. Still think Grillo is just a simple-minded comic with a penchant for anarchy?

From Handelsblatt:

The Italian politician and surprise winner of the last general election, Beppe Grillo, does not believe the fate of Italy is to remain in the Euro-zone. "In fact, Italy's already out of the euro," said the leader of the party "five stars" in an interview with the Handelsblatt. He believes that the Nordic countries would keep Italy only so long, "until they have taken the pure investment banks in their Italian bonds again. Then they will drop us like a hot potato."


Grillo sketched a popular decision on the euro. It has to pass an exit from the euro but "not alone" but would "make an online referendum on the euro." Just as on the Lisbon Treaty. These are "all issues on which our Constitution was ignored".


Interview Grillo expected sharply with the current Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti. This was "a bankruptcy trustee on behalf of the banks. Held up at the top earners and cut the state system, he has the people below paying higher taxes. "


Grillo sees itself not as anti-European. "Europe must not be afraid," he told Reuters in an interview. He asked, however, a strong reversal and "more democracy." For his party, he takes to claim. "We are the French Revolution - without guillotine" Europe needs a "Plan B," says the Italian politicians.


"We must still ask: What happened to Europe? Why do we have no common information policy, no joint tax policy, no common policy of immigration? Why has only Germany been enriched?"

All very good questions which Italy's population will be increasingly seeking to get answers for.


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Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:04 | 3325344 Desert Irish
Desert Irish's picture

Vox Populi....


Isn't democracy a bitch....

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:07 | 3325354 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

What Peter Griffin thinks:

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:50 | 3325448 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"We must still ask: What happened to Europe? Why do we have no common information policy, no joint tax policy, no common policy of immigration? Why has only Germany been enriched?"

Anybody else see the problem with this? Are we sure this guy isn't an NWO wolf in populist sheep's clothing?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:04 | 3325489 N. B. Forrest
N. B. Forrest's picture

I don't know if he's bad or good, but I do know that he had better get a platoon of body guards along with a food and wine taster. 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:23 | 3325557 BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

I swear if he dies from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the back of the head....

Well, I am just going to kill myself.  Probably by shooting myself in the back of the head.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:26 | 3325565 pods
Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:20 | 3325735 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

The only difference I see by Grillo's election is that "they" can now finish off their destructive schemes in Italy and blame the whole mess on him. If they kill him, then there's a much bigger mess to clean up, and I doubt they're ready to collapse the whole world, just yet. After all, there's still many collateralized assets left to steal.

As always, it's about behavior at the margins.

Then again, perhaps "they" are on the margin themselves, and will use Grillo as the proverbial "Shot Heard Around the World 2.0?"


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 16:46 | 3327469 RuiNsPro
RuiNsPro's picture

Quote:"Why has only Germany been enriched?" 

Maybe it's b/c Germans are willing to work.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:53 | 3325895 Lord Blankcheck
Lord Blankcheck's picture


Excellent documentry about Iran/Contra "drug war"

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:24 | 3325559 john39
john39's picture

talk of increased Euro integration should certainly raise suspicion...   be careful looking for a savior, the NWO is always too happy to set up a bait and switch.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:40 | 3325603 Muessin
Muessin's picture

Adding up my two cents - by asking "Why has only Germany been enriched", he gives the (bad) credit to the wrong entity here - Germans are not rich, German corporations may be rich on paper, but Germans are not rich - the German government as agent of their people is underwriting massive debt securities and is heavily indebted = not rich. At least not in my world, or am I wrong?

But Grillo tries to direct the anger into national territories within Europe instead of concisely sticking with his (righteous) narrative of the (super-national) bankster class draining the European people, and all the rest… as a political phenomenon he may add a good charge to the game - but as a poliitician I see room for improvement…

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 11:30 | 3326020 caconhma
caconhma's picture

After Grillo make Germans very angry, things will start rolling. Once again, the zionist banking mafia will get big problems.

Hitler was a great preacher but was a very lousy politician. He tried to fight the City Jewish Banksters and be a good friend with the British government owned by these banking gangsters. No wonder he lost big.


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 15:26 | 3327052 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

i think you're wrong

government as agent of their people

government is always an agent for its creditors, not its people.  it may happen that in some rare cases its own people are creditors; but more often than not, the creditors of governments are a few banking families who own the central bank

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 12:34 | 3329787 Muessin
Muessin's picture

The narrative of any serious government always begins with "In the name of the people…" thus claiming their people's agentship - and most of them believe it too… but you do of course make a point: "by their deeds, and not their words, you shall…" how does the saying go?

To my knowledge the Bundesbank is not a privately owned central bank.

On that note, everyone in the internet seems to assume, that the ECB is a privately owned bank - which I have never seen real proof of - my own (poor) research had me conclude that the Euro zone member's central banks own the ECB - and some of those are (more or less) privately owned.

Is there a reliable source that actually exposes the private influence in the ECB?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:28 | 3325568 BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

Excellent observation Buck but somehow I don't see him calling for a politically united EU.  It just doesn't stem from his primary rant.

That said, if it suddenly becomes his 'a-ha' solution to it all, well then we have finally outed MDB :-)

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:44 | 3325856 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Does this mean Al Franken will run for president ?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 13:57 | 3326510 akak
akak's picture

I think I just crapped my pants a little after even imagining that.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:21 | 3327902 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture


But Frankin will loose the nomination to Joe Biden before joining the ticket as Biden's  vice presidential running mate.....


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:04 | 3325346 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Does one order white or red wine with the Beppe Grillo?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:23 | 3325392 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

Good one!

"Beppe Balls Italien" may be the next serving for the northern European banks.  

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:31 | 3325403 noses
noses's picture

White. Everything else would be too heavy for roasted Clownfish.



Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:29 | 3325774 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Forget your sarc tag? Or are you really that delusional?

Oh wait, you're one of those accounts that exist here for nearly a year before ever posting anything.

Fedgov is gonna need better sock-puppet software it appears.


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:04 | 3325347 bania
bania's picture

He's not joking.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 14:02 | 3326529 tickhound
tickhound's picture



FORZA BEPPE, bitchez.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:06 | 3325349 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

omg a straight talker

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:13 | 3325368 Lets_Eat_Ben
Lets_Eat_Ben's picture

"Time for your cancer treatment BG."

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:29 | 3325401 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Central Bankers are licensed to practice medicine in Italy?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 15:31 | 3327087 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

yes, practice and administer

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:34 | 3325796 jusman
jusman's picture

Even Jack Layton in Canada died from cancer of the pelvic area (subsequent to prostate cancer which is generally curable).  This after the "Orange Wave" took Quebec for the left.  Chavez.  I am not paranoid but your comment may not be far off the mark...


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:45 | 3325865 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

If you're not paranoid, you're not paying attention...

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 12:16 | 3326173 resurger
resurger's picture


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:27 | 3325394 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

The legacy of George Carlin lives in Beppe Grillo.

Every notice?  Comedians generally speak the truth while Politicians and Banksters invariably prove themselves lying, thieving bastards.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:40 | 3325424 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Kind of. They can be co-opted just like anyone else.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:45 | 3325436 They_Live
They_Live's picture

Hence the court jester employed by kings of old. Shakespeare shows the fool issuing advice other men fear to give.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:59 | 3325476 N. B. Forrest
N. B. Forrest's picture

Kind of like the fools in the ancient royal courts.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:06 | 3325494 Scro
Scro's picture

Al Franken? He is as dumb as a rock but totes the party line.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:16 | 3325524 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Good example. Same is true of Stewart and Colbert (party line... not dumb as rocks, I don't think). They both speak truth to power, but very selectively. They are like cattle dogs. All mainstream media is propaganda, only it's more sophisticated than the propaganda back in the day. The goal is to keep people equally divided.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:07 | 3325355 realtick
realtick's picture

waiting for ZH exclusive interview - make it happen

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:20 | 3325382 fudge
fudge's picture

dead man walking , so it better be quick.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:37 | 3325414 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

Afraid so. In the mean time the "character assassination" of Grillo and its M5S is already well under way in Italy, both in the mainstream Italian media and through the astroturf posting on every and each blog entry that speak well of the M5S.

As, BTW, is at risk too mr Crocetta, the just elected governor of Sicily (that lead a regional parliament of center-left with the external support of the M5S) for his opposition to the American military Muos (Mobile User Objective System) installation... :(

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:32 | 3325580 fudge
fudge's picture

Mr Crocetta

yeah,and it's hardly mentioned in most news sources,,,always nice to see some people put a stick in the spokes :)

I'd be carefully checking my HDD if I was him,never can tell when pics of young boys might magically appear ;)

Good luck to the guy.


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:55 | 3325887 Escapedgoat
Escapedgoat's picture

The Greek MSM are doing far better job, than the Italian MSM, by excluding EPAM Movement. Which is advocating to leave Europe, Let The Banks Collapse (Icelandic Model here) ,by asking all of the Monies back given to them and Guarantees. Liberating the Central Bank of Greece (nobody knows  who it Belongs to, UTTER SECRECY here) by Nationalising it. and Worst of all its General  Secretary is Dimitris Kazakis, an Economist that knows the system very well, top Analysis on a daily basis.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:04 | 3325682 ItsEvolutionBaby
ItsEvolutionBaby's picture

Get on to this Tyler. Of all people you (team) will ask the right questions. I'm sure he's got time for the best financial blog in the world.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:08 | 3325356 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

"We are the French Revolution - without guillotine"

Looks like he has a flaw in the plan to me.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:14 | 3325369 Desert Irish
Desert Irish's picture

yep.....fuck it then we'll take your handle and just burn them at the stake

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:09 | 3325692 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Hey, french revolution July 14, 1789.

Dr Guillotine invention first used : by Sanson the barber of the revolution in 1793.

« Soyons terribles pour dispenser le peuple de l’être », s’exclame Danton au cours des débats. Robespierre, de son côté, écrit sans ambages : « La Terreur n’est autre chose que la justice prompte, sévère, inflexible : elle est donc une émanation de la vertu »73. Le premier exécuté de ce tribunal est Louis Guyot des Maulans, gentilhomme poitevin, arrêté le12 décembre 1792. Jugé le 6 avril suivant, il fut exécuté ce même jour, et, comme l’heure était tardive, à la lueur de quatre douzaines de flambeaux74, recréant la magie nocturne des premières décapitations politiques. Mais c’est le parti des Girondins qui fera principalement les frais de cette recrudescence. La loi de modification de ce tribunal en date du10 juin 1794 (22 prairial, an 2) va simplifier et donc accélérer les procédures. Cette loi fut impopulaire et les députés de la Plaine demandèrent instamment qu’elle fût rapportée. Le tribunal qui avait prononcé 1231 condamnations à mort du 6 avril 1793 au 10 juin 1794 en a prononcé 1376 du 11 juin 1794 au 27 juillet 1794« La sévérité n’est redoutable que pour les ennemis de la liberté », déclare encore Robespierre75.

You get the flavour of the revolution right there, like the smell of hot, fresh cawfeeee! 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 14:12 | 3326533 akak
akak's picture


Le premier exécuté de ce tribunal est Louis Guyot des Maulans, gentilhomme poitevin, arrêté le12 décembre 1792. Jugé le 6 avril suivant, il fut exécuté ce même jour, et, comme l’heure était tardive, à la lueur de quatre douzaines de flambeaux

(In English: "The first executed by this tribunal is Louis Guyot des Maulans, a gentleman from Poitou, arrested the 12th of December, 1792.  Sentenced on the following 6th of April, he was executed the same day, and, as the hour was late, by the light of four dozen torches".)

Sounds like a combination of some good ol' Nazi instant 'justice' and a pre-WWII Nuremburg Rally.  Charming.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 15:34 | 3327109 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

they didnt have drones back then

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:08 | 3325357 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

I think Grillo doesn't understand the implications of the Target2 system. A breakup of the Eurosystem is much more expensive to Germany and the banks than to cause massive wage deflation and GDP shrinkage in the PIIGS. Eventually Germany will have to engage in some kind of transfer union whether they'll call it what it is or not. The political elites of Europe are also so closely tied to the Euro-project that they won't allow any step back.

The only solution therefore is, sadly, revolt and violence. And that's what I'm expecting in the not so distant future

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:26 | 3325387 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

excellent comment, but imho flawed on several points

about TARGET2 with a Greek example (take Italian, if you prefer) - (first time I prepared a comment)



Assume a Greek citizen with a bank account in Greece. He closes that account and transfer it to his bank account in Germany. This transfer is debited from his  Greek bank account with the Bank of Greece and then credited to his German bank account.


As each euro in the national banking system is a liability for the respective national bank, the liabilities side of the Bank of Greece’s balance sheet is then “too small” and that of the Bundesbank’s balance sheet “too large”. TARGET2 balances adjust for these discrepancies: the Bundesbank holds a claim against the ECB as an asset; the Bank of Greece has a liability of the same amount vis-à-vis the ECB.


It's nevertheless still a Greek national holding euros - in the German banking system instead of the Greek one. Though of course this lead to extra-eurozone banks - like those in the UK - to shout first "Bank run!" and then "Redenomination risk!" And then grumble on because nothing is breaking the way they could profit from it.


Just to complete the view, btw, European Union members that are not part of the Euro area have to repay net outflows at the end of each business day, i.e. they can never accumulate negative TARGET2 balances. For example, following a large scale outflow of capital from Denmark to the Euro area, the Danmarks Nationalbank would either use euros from its reserves or issue kronas to buy euros on the foreign exchange market in order to net these outflows.


So yes, if Greece would be outside of the eurozone it would needed euros to buy back drachmas - and so increasing the run of FX/funds outside of Greece. Shorting the drachma would then be a child's play, particularly thanks to it's small size. The Greek economy would then experience an increasing dearth of credit while prices would double - perhaps eventually in short period of times, leading to increases to wages - in drachmas.


Yes, the debt - if denominated in drachmas (something British and other creditor banks campaign to avoid) - would dwindle away. Nevertheless, I ask you: if this is the path to prosperity, why do countries like Argentina not prosper from it?

Again, the EUR is working as designed. Leaving the eurozone is easy - facing the consequences, including funding external needed resources as oil, a more thorny issue. All the eurozone countries have the choice to exit it and so enter the great dollarzone - or peg (IF they have FX-reserves or gold) to the EUR and be monetary eurosatellites, like Denmark or Switzerland. Or drop in the abyss.


In the above case it's still a Greek national with his euros in a German bank. If some Greek bank gets his trust and he shifts his euros there, his portion of the T2 imbalance reverses. Of course if he would bank in London or NY, then no T2 balance would be affected, so perhaps that's the whole problem, eh? (Damn Greek should stop trusting the German and trust more the British and American banks./s)


the only thing that changes in the above example is the size and composition of the Italian debt and it's creditors, as well as the size of the Italian economy versus the Greek (and the important fact that Italy can achieve balanced budgets)

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:42 | 3325432 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



I'd hate to see the long version.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:48 | 3325439 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

it's 27 pages - and I'm not counting several other notes I've made during 2012 and not integrated yet

who said that only one in a million understands fractional reserve banking? well, currencies are even more complex, imho

the short of it: the dollar, the pound and the yen have a 5% chance of hyperinflation in 2013 - there is an immense amount of bullshit being printed about the EUR and...

if you want to be safe, have some gold stashed away

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:54 | 3325462 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Nuff said....I can do that.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:11 | 3325510 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Ghordius, Thanks for your comments and may I ask, Who is printing the Bullshit about the Euro?


Is it 'the city of london'?



Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:22 | 3325548 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

lol, it would be nice if only so. a lot of bs comes from the political debate around the UK and it's proposed entry in the eurozone years ago. more bs comes from anti-EU parties who love to mix the two clubs. even more comes from anti-central-bank movements. I'm not complaining on the motives, just on "why use BS if you do have other arguments?"

and of course there is an immense biz around the EURUSD

I was just reading that if you count only corporative interests, "...European companies accounted for $1.5 trillion, or 63%, of total foreign direct investment in the United States and U.S. companies accounted for $1.7 trillion, or about 50%, of total foreign investment in Europe in 2009"

that's a lot of corporate money asking "WTF are the europeans doing?" and it would not be very politically correct to answer: we are fretting about WTF we are supposed to do if a currency war starts in earnest or if the USD dies

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 05:45 | 3328982 desirdavenir
desirdavenir's picture

I wouldn't mind a link to that...

thanks in advance 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:56 | 3325464 jayman21
jayman21's picture

He understands that Euros do not represent Italy and enrich a few who can just print and then charge interest for no production.  They call it central banking, but it is reality robbing the poor to make a few rich.


Target 2 and the other alphabet soup is just bread and circus for smart people.  It is a good distraction to keep what is really going on hidden.


If I produce something, I can only loan someone else what I have and the interest I charge is justified.

If I own a central bank (they are private legal entities) I can just loan out money that is not tied to a profit or production of something and steal from the producing portion of the population.  The producers cannot compete with a private central bank.  Talk about a business plan.  Have you ever worked at a place of business and wondered how on earth does it stay in business?  See if it has a line to the central bank, or the CEO sits on the board of the central bank.  

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:12 | 3325515 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Italy owns the Banca d'Italia, which is a member of the ECB - your remarks are correct, but the Italian setting is not the US one

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:30 | 3325569 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture


The Banca d'Italia is owned for the 94.33% by PRIVATE insurance companies and banks:


Intesa Sanpaolo S.p.A. 30,3% UniCredito Italiano S.p.A. 22,1% Assicurazioni Generali S.p.A. 6,3% Cassa di Risparmio in Bologna S.p.A. 6,2% INPS 5,0% Banca Carige S.p.A. 4,0% Banca Nazionale del Lavoro S.p.A. 2,8% Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena S.p.A. 2,5% Cassa di Risparmio di Biella e Vercelli S.p.A. 2,1% Cassa di Risparmio di Parma e Piacenza S.p.A. 2,0%

Please, if you do some sporting astroturfing, at least get your facts right...

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:39 | 3325608 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

have you looked at the statutes of the Banca? have you looked at the statutes of those private insurance companies and banks? have you looked at the ownership of those banks and insurance companies? who appoints the Governor of the Banca d'Italia? who owns, for example, MPS?

yes, you are 100% correct, de jure. imho I'm correct, de facto

have a closer look at the Swiss National Bank and you'll see what I mean

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:30 | 3325576 jayman21
jayman21's picture

Ghordius - If someone can tell me how Italy owns its own central bank and still be a part of the ECB?  This sounds like cognitive dissonance and a proxy for the usual families?  I ask because I find your information is correct when I double check.  So this is me being naive and not be combative.  My sarc flag is currently off!!!


If it is a proxy, which I believe it is and cannot prove without my tin foil hat, then is this point relevant?  Just like the Fed, it is a proxy hiding behind shares of banks which circulate among themselves for enrichment without one thing being produced.


Thanks for all of your other comments.  Love reading your stuff.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:42 | 3325624 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

very simplified: the ECB is a shared facility of 17 national banks, who have one governor and one vote each in the governing council of the ECB. but those national banks still exist, work, etc.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 13:29 | 3326418 jayman21
jayman21's picture

Thanks....I understand and know this.  I was thinking more along the lines of final beneficiary and I think that analysis takes a tin foil hat to get the right answer.  I think you are better read on this subject than I am.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 11:44 | 3325959 Anasteus
Anasteus's picture

Agree. The overall picture he's depicting is much wider than just the finance whirling within the screwed system. I think the EU is virtually dead and he's just loudly correctly naming what everybody (except the dumb elite and their puppets) knows - but in this time it's a heroic act.

Sure, the financial settlement after the break-up will not be easy and Germany, France and others will certainly pay for it, but deservedly so. The problem is not Euro itself but the fraudulent credit politics pursued and boosted by too confident banks backed by their political cronies in governments and Brussels. This irresponsible oligarchic politics (along with outright lying, data falsification and covering up) caused imbalance imposed on poorer markets such as those in the southern countries, so every government assisting in it is complicit. Or does anyone think Germany or France will attack Italy with guns?

The EU might have been a great concept even when established on political basis. The problem is that the true goals of the elite behind the scenes are far away from what it claims to be. If the politics behind the EU were the enrichment of the region as a whole but by respecting natural economic and cultural differences accompanied by respective accountable and watchful financial measures based on free market, then such a EU political plan could have succeeded. But if we look closer at what's actually happening we can't see anything but the well-known old primitive monarchic imperialistic model of exploitation and power seeking running under the hood. It's a shame that in the 21st century we are still facing the same idiotic mind relic fuelled by insane utopians incapable of grasping the basics of democracy even in the course of centuries. A big shame!

The EU concept is falling because it's being led by incapable people and groups whose mental development stopped three hundred years ago, somewhere halfway between greedy pigs, insidious wolves and human beings. The only chance for Europe is to get rid of these 'entities'. If it's not possible the break-up is the only solution.

Fortunately, Beppe, more than 25% of Italians and more and more people in Europe seem to have already grasped it.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 12:55 | 3326310 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

nice anti-EU rant, but may I point (as usual) out that the EU (27 countries) and the eurozone/EUR/ECB currency thing (17 countries) are not the same clubs?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 13:51 | 3326420 Anasteus
Anasteus's picture

Sure, they are not the same clubs. But once the credit politics effectively spreads over all countries they are eventually indebted (trapped) all regardless of currency. Being out is certainly advantageous... until you get caught on 'free money', which is so irresistibly alluring once you're the member of the EU. Then the independence derived from different currency is purely fictitious.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 03:59 | 3328899 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

as fictitious as the whole concept of fiat money and public credit dispensed through the ministry of a fractional-reserve banking system

in the greater scheme of things we in the "first world" had a credit binge similar to a drug orgy - now the question is more like: who wants to have an hair of the dog and who wants to get sober again - and clean up the mess?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 11:50 | 3326080 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Well...speaking of flaws, if we must...though less vociferous in your built in prejudices(Hermes blinkers?)than our inhouse von Rompuy, this constant effort to impute all negative cause & effect to "Les Blokes" while stipulating that the centralized Euro-vision is sancrosanct and infallible in origin leads you to a nasty set of shoals which scupper your argument and leave you adrift without so much as an oar.

At the heart of our [three way] argument continues to be the lack of willingness of you continental cousins to acknowledge that both the Anglo and the Merikan factions have long past lost all 'sovereignity' and independence of thought or action in their foreign adventures...they are but miserable playthings of the 'goldsmiths' ...and that the continental-based element of that same criminal cartel not only sets polity in London and D.C, but in fact owns and operates your own section of the Disney World franchise...

meaning that your attempts to play Snow White to the Anglo wicked Queen just leaves you at the mercy of the dwarves, who will indeed, use you to their advantage. To suggest, for instance, that

"All the eurozone countries have the choice to exit it and so enter the great dollarzone - or peg (IF they have FX-reserves or gold) to the EUR and be monetary eurosatellites, like Denmark or Switzerland. Or drop in the abyss"

is mere histrionics, of the kind better left to the brethern in is far better off to employ history instead...which leads to the singular absence from the discussion of where Grillo's insights must take him...and his people.

A reconstituted "LATIN[Monetary]LEAGUE" - that collection of states which formalised decades-old tradition of a common currency system; at first France, Belgium, Switzerland and Italy - later joined by Greece, Romania, Spain, Bulgaria and !Venezuela! Their combination worked sufficiently well to survive up to WW1 - a period of time all but sure to outlast the lifespan of Barrosso&Cie's latest "thousand year Reich" - and was most seriously sabotaged by the Papal States' inability to refrain from counterfeiting and currency debasement - a specialty of "God's Bankers" it would seem - and the Prussian War, the aftermath of which saw out the end of the 'silver standard' and the ascendancy of the new Unholy Roman Emperors of the Kuhn, Loeb Co., Lazard Frères, J.W. Seligman Co., Goldman, Sachs & Co., and Ladenburg, Thalman & Co type.

There are lots of options outside the scope of your analysis, and when you choose to foreswore allegiance to the moneychangers manipulated media mendacity, I am sure your own quickwits will see them instantly!

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 13:06 | 3326340 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

+1  yes, there are lots of options outside the scope of my (rather simplistic) "analysis" - now that this "trail" is cold I can confess that I myself see a few way how any number of countries could extricate itself from this - only: how to put them in the "format" of a blog? you yourself have issues with this constriction

yet Pax Americana or not: the fundamental question that every nation has and will continue to have is the same, do we balance our budget or do we face later the consequences? (or do we battle the dwarfes or do we ally with them against the Wicked Queen?) all questions of national will - and will is probably the scarcest resource of all

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:40 | 3325425 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

swissaustrian, to go back to your original comment - you can't look at the target2 balance alone - you have to look at the corresponding parts between banks and national banks

taken alone, target2 just shows the relative size increases and decreases of the national banking systems - and a breakup would not change that

an Italian or Greek customer of a German bank would probably want a redenomination in DM, for example

nope, Germany might engage in a kind of transfer union, but it is not strictly necessary

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:54 | 3325463 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

Do you thing the PIIGs would let Germany enjoy the cheap Euro forever without getting a piece of the pie through some kind of transfer? They're never gonna be competitive within the current setup.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:07 | 3325500 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

GIIPS - I refuse to use this Anglo-American financial term meant to make cheap propaganda

to your question, in my humblest opinion: even France is already bargaining terms - the big battle is not about the "cheap" EUR for Germany, it's still about the national budgets, and how to balance them - and when

competitiveness? take a look at Switzerland. why is it competitive? why is the CHF floored to the EUR? it takes a lot of parameters to be right in order to be competitive - taking the "let's devalue the currency" was always the "I'll pay later" shortcut

nope - I know that "Austrians" here in ZH generally don't see it this way but the eurozone is embarked on an Austrian Path while the dollarzone is embarked on a Keynesian path

we'll see

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:33 | 3325586 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

I'm on the board of a Swiss SME (hightech). They're are exporting to the Eurozone. 85% of their contracts are denominated in EUR. If they hadn't hedged their EUR exposure through forwards since 2009 when the SNB started intervening, they'd have our profits cut by 66%. They wouldn't have any capital for investments. One of their competitors is in bankruptcy right now, because they didn't hedge. They're gonna buy some of their patents and hire at least one employee.

I know that's just anecdotal evidence, but it's happening in many industries. Margin compression is going on everywhere. Cost reduction programs are beeing persued aggressively. The main lobby groups warned their industries early on to hedge fx exposure, so hedging is rampant and has saved a lot of companies so far. However, it won't help forever. At the surface, the Swiss economy is looking great, but a lot of it comes from cheap money which is fuelling the epic real estate bubble over here: Let's wait for another 5 years and then we'll see the real impact of the strong CHF and the SNB's reaction to it.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 14:26 | 3326672 Surprese
Surprese's picture

Can't help loving that conclusion: "the Eurozone is embarked on an Austrian path while the dollar zone is embarked on a Keynesian path".

Got to be an Economist to write that: see reality as it is, not as it should be.

Here at ZH the rant is: "Europeans are socialists, Americans libertarians", but the reality is not always as we wish...

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 14:51 | 3326855 Joe A
Joe A's picture

"GIIPS - I refuse to use this Anglo-American financial term meant to make cheap propaganda"

How does "garlic belt" work for you?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:10 | 3325362 apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

Italians hung one notable fascist during WWII; if I were Monti or Draghi, I would ensure that my bodyguards are well armed.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:16 | 3325365 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

We must still ask: What happened to Europe? Why do we have no common information policy, no joint tax policy, no common policy of immigration? Why has only Germany been enriched?

God beware there would be an European IRS. That would be horrible. What a stupid idea by Mr Grillo. Competition in taxation is the only thing that prevents the Eurocrats from imposing French style hate taxes.

Edit: and what the fuck is a "common information policy"? Is he talking about an EU ministry of propaganda?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:26 | 3325397 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

He's a stooge like the rest of them most likely.  If he wasn't he'd be dead.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:40 | 3325423 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

Ask Chavez about this...

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 14:33 | 3326728 Surprese
Surprese's picture

It is quite simple: Grillo is a left wing totalitarian, dreaming with a new soviet union with a KGB (common information policy) and an iron curtain to prevent us from fleeing (common policy of immigration).

He proposes an Orwellian nightmare to Europe.

Just because he insults bankers and he is anti-Euro, ZH gives him credit, without acknowledging that this guy is really dangerous,

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:13 | 3325366 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

This was "a bankruptcy trustee on behalf of the banks. Held up at the top earners and cut the state system, he has the people below paying higher taxes.

This is basically the result of globalization; when you consolidate, you evaporate "wealth" somewhere.

Great point by Grillo.  He needs to keep making these sharp jabs at the ECB to ensure they stay true to their mandates.  They won't, of course....they are agents for oligarchs.....but it just needs to be proven to the general "public".

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:17 | 3325373 BadKiTTy
BadKiTTy's picture

I think we need a few more BG's around the world speaking truth to power.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses. You can expect that TPTB are not going to go quietly........

Some false flag event which causes a crisis?
The 'surprise revalation' of something in BG's past which undermines his cred?

Who knows? Perhaps some Euro version of the Phoenix Programme.....

A space to watch for sure.


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:17 | 3325374 The Invisible Foot
The Invisible Foot's picture

Forget about it. (Italian accent)

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:17 | 3325375 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

how QUICK they forget how Italy, Greece and Spain got hundreds upon hundreds  of billions of euro's that where just waisted into their corrupt system?



Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:31 | 3325404 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

ehmm... the average Italian was always richer than the average German

just look at this: 60% of Germans live in rent, as they did for practically ever - 1995 the whole properties market in Italy was valued around 2'000bn of which 50bn in mortgages - and (officially) 5% of Italians lived in rent

dirt-cheap vacations are not an indicator of the fragility of a population's wealth - and don't get me started on the Italian SMEs

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:45 | 3325431 falak pema
falak pema's picture

how do you see the Euro project IF Beppe achieves his aims and gets Italy out of the Euro?

Not saying its gonna happen, but it cannot be brushed aside; this man is adamant and not playing to the gallery, and he is a democratically elected force to be reckoned with. 50% of Italians now understand that "austerity" for them and "indulgences" for the CORE banks is not going to save their skins. Charles Vth empire burnt Rome then. Merkel will try and be more subtle, burning Rome like Athens burns today is dynamite for democracy. 

Remember, Italy taught us everything along with Greece : Caesar and globalisation under Pax Romana, capitalism, Renaissance and city republics. Beppe is truly in that tradition, and so he knows whats what in Eurozone. 

Correction Ghordius: I see you have already addressed a number of these issues here-below. 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:56 | 3325468 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

1. Beppe is not "his" movement - 2. M5S has an agreed agenda of 120 points, and debt/currency are not part of it - 3. Grillo is not an elected MP of the movement - 4. those views above are his, not of the movement

knowing a bit the man - I had long discussions with him, usually followed by altercations and shouts of "vaffanculo" - he will remain adamant, but his understanding of economics is frankly on the side of abysmal

He is right on one thing, imho: there must be a frank and open discussion about the debt and there must be a discussion about the pros and cons of a Plan B, otherwise democracy goes down the drain

I'd be careful with this 50%, and I think the next elections will look quite differently

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:22 | 3325546 falak pema
falak pema's picture

thx, good analysis Ghordius; I was playing devil's advocate.

These are awesome times! 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:57 | 3325667 shinobi-7
shinobi-7's picture

Interesting indeed. From his speeches, he clearly doesn't know much about eonomics but to say NO to Brussels doesn't require a nobel prize. Other people will sort out the mess later. His role is to prevent Rome following in the footsteps of Athens. This must be done now. I a year, it will be too late.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:43 | 3325433 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture

The magic word here is "average". As in "you eat a chicken, I eat nothing, so, in average, we eat half a chicken each".


In Italy (as in the USA, if I understand well...) we have a 10% with A LOT of money, and a 50% with NOTHING.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:53 | 3325450 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

I understand...



You're WRONG


Damn! I'm starting to get the hang of this!!!







Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:19 | 3325531 SteelRust
SteelRust's picture


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:17 | 3325376 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Germany has been "enriched" beause they create value.  Don't hate the player, hate the game.  Think I see a subtle purpose here, in that comment by Beppe.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:31 | 3325405 swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

The common currency has saved the Germans from inter-EU competition. The Euro is undervalued for them and overvalued for the PIIGS. German politcians are aware of that, although they're crediting their great policies for the current German success. Just imagine how much the DM would have appreciated against the Lira, Peseta, Drachma, Escudo etc. The DM would have traded similarly like the CHF did from 2008 on (from 1.65 per EUR to 1:1 in 4 years). That would have killed German exports. The cheap Euro is just a giant export subsidy for them.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:43 | 3325627 epi_tis_thalassis
epi_tis_thalassis's picture

It seems the only recipe for a country (without big oil production) to be successful is to be able to have some form of export subsidy. Isn't that equivalent to a constant silent war?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:53 | 3325843 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

I'm not contesting that Germany plays the currency game, so much as I am pointing out that value creation before and after the euro would be an even line.  Your understanding is not elaborate.  Not yet, anyway.

Before Euro: Germany manufactured high-priced goods that the predominance of people wanted to buy.

During Euro: Germany manufactures high-priced goods that the predominance of people want to buy.

After Euro: Germany will continue to manufacture high-priced goods that the predominance of people want to buy.

If you create value, wealth flows to you.  Currency paradigms only impact this on an ephemeral basis.

IMO Beppe is partly playing off the nationalistic "we create wonderful things in Italy, more wonderful than Germany, thus Germany must be a bunch of cheaters, because we see them as rich and ourselves as not as proportionally rich." meme. 

I will throw out a high price, high volume product comparison of Germany vs. Italy.  You tell me which one has penetrated both the American and Asian markets before and during the Euro en masse at price tier:

Mercedes vs. Lamborghini (sp)

BMW vs. Fiat

I'm waiting.

Germany has a deep history of righting itself via manufacturing goods.  Anyone who has ever downshifted into fourth gear at 75mph while fluidly matching the transmission revs to the engine revs on an old manual 325i to pass a slower driver on the highway will tell you just how fulfilling to the not-very-rich-at-all consumer that German manufacturing is.

A well-built sail managed perfectly will catch a good gust of wind that much better.

I'm sorry to let facts intrude on your whole attribution of currency impacts to Germany's success, now back to you and the periodic ZH hero worship thread for the intellectual dependents, personality cult followers, premature celebrators, and the guru-challenged.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 11:08 | 3325934 markar
markar's picture

psssst. The transmission on my 530i crapped out at 58000 miles. Cost almost 50% of the cars current value to fix. I switched to Korean. Awesome build/technology for the money.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 11:30 | 3326001 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

I can neither confirm nor deny the validity of your anecdote, but I do agree that BMW could indeed by gaming the market for profit in this climate.  Also, there are more BMWs in the hands of people who have no business driving BMWs but that's a whole different finance-driven problem (see my posts on the "Cadillac Effect") in itself.  Thus is nature of unintended consequences and predictably unpredictable distortions in a fiat system.

I can also offer that my old 325i went to 250k before I got rid of it.  I couldn't keep up with the maintenance at that point which was death by a thousand little cuts.  The only big issue I had was when I weakened the timing belt at 150k miles racing up on the NY Thruway (a Supra beat me b/c BMWs are not for racing) and it snapped a week a later - cylinder head then need replacing.  The belt was original (I bought the car used at 125k).  Again, another 100k miles were added with few problems. Besides that, the only big problem I had was the crappy roads in NYC breaking my aftermarket cat twice. 

I can agree that the technology that Korea has been offering into the marketplace at a growing rate has improved by leaps and bounds.  I like the way the new Kia's look and the price is right.  Samsung is another value leader.  Wealth flows to value.  Gold flows to value-add like solder to heat.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 13:49 | 3326484 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Reunification of germany should have eroded the German Trade Surpolus and strengthened the D-Mark but Mitterand being an idiot insisted on the Euro so France could control BUBA. and thus saved Germany

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:47 | 3325396 WVO Biker
WVO Biker's picture

CBs mint, print and keystroke money and lend it to the people - fine.

CBs buy their own IOUs with money they make - fine.

CBs buy corporate debt - fine.

CBs buy small business loans. Small business owners are no longer banks' slaves, but government slaves.

CBs buy whatever - houses - children - what have you - from everyone in the debt trap. 

The transfer of wealth from the people to the state.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:27 | 3325398 riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

ingenius...if he plays his cards right they will be begging him to stay, throwing money at Italy like it was so much confetti...or he will be assasinated.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:33 | 3325407 noses
noses's picture

Germany has been enriched by about € -5.0E11 by Italy. That should suffice for grilling a few Beppe the Morons for the next few weeks. And remember: Burning idiots at stake is a good old European tradition.



Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:55 | 3325408 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

"Still think Grillo is just a simple-minded comic with a penchant for anarchy?"

Never did, but isn't that my profile?

Grillo is the black swan that will cast a huge shadow over Brussels.  He's the real deal and mama mia! he's an angry Italian, and he's not a jokin'!

Watch out Eurocrats, Beppe is just clearing his throat before the big show.

Where is the USSA's Nigel Farge or Beppe Grillo?

Who has the nuts for this fight?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:28 | 3325570 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

are you seriously comparing Grillo with Farage? are they both banker lobbyists?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:22 | 3325742 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

Nigel and Beppe are the banksters and Eurocrats worst nightmares.  They are clear and effective speakers for the 99%.

I can easily see Beppe at the front of a very angry mob.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 12:30 | 3326235 Acet
Acet's picture

Nigel is the son of a City of London stockbroker.

I have never seen him say anything against City bankers.

You need to switch off your hero worship.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 13:40 | 3326454 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

I stand by my statement.  Nigel is an effective speaker for the 99%.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 11:34 | 3326033 rqb1
rqb1's picture

The black swan will be when the northerns leave the euro. 

I do respect Italy's stand though,  unlike the Greeks, who just sold out their future generations.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:34 | 3325409 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I am listening to LIEsman tell me that that retai sales was a great number because of gasoline and food sales. He muttered something about dept stores being down. Santelli has his pom poms too. Fuck em both.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:35 | 3325593 DblAjent
DblAjent's picture

that fat fuck, bless his heart - how did he get on that show anyway? I'll take Santilli anyday over him.


And as for Grillo, ah La dolce vita viene anche! Pasta vazool for everyone!

pasta e' fagioli

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:34 | 3325410 Catullus
Catullus's picture

This guy is a clown.

Italy not in the euro? Make that statement to someone in your office today and see the looks you get.

And this:

Why has only Germany been enriched?"

That's not even close to true.  Had Italy not been the euro, no one would have loaned them money at the rates they got.  The problem for the moron is that no one wants to CONTINUE to loan them money at low rates.

For those of you putting your faith in the bafoon, plesase just STFU

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:53 | 3325459 Mr. Hudson
Mr. Hudson's picture

He is instigating a revolution of the “poor vs. the rich”. The rich will be tortured and slaughtered. He will succeed; whereas Occupy Wall Street and even Ron Paul miserably failed.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:59 | 3325474 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

How upside down is the world when the litmus test for the strength of a society or an individual is debt. Because that is what you are saying, no? Who placed these thoughts into your head and to what end? Think how often this is part of the conversation, but not questioned. The consumer credit market ticks upward and that is viewed as positive financial news. Had Italy not been in the Euro they could not have had more debt shoveled on top of them and future generations of Italians... OK... Your point?

Your mind is controlled.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:43 | 3325844 Pampalona
Pampalona's picture


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:43 | 3325845 Pampalona
Pampalona's picture

Ure the buffoon.... I lived in Italia when the Euro came in and that very week ev thing in the stores were 5-15% more expensive... The people will readily accept back the Lira as its their cultural heritage as is the dollar to the US or sterling to the UK.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 14:55 | 3326883 Joe A
Joe A's picture

If they would get their Lira back then prices would go up again. That has nothing to do which exchange rates or devaluation but merely with the fact that everywhere in Europe businesses misused the introduction of the Euro to raise prices.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:40 | 3325422 Village Smithy
Village Smithy's picture

"a bankruptcy trustee on behalf of the banks".

That is a great truism and could  get a lot of traction with the little people. It's straightforward and has mass appeal. Could become Beppe's banner. Sometimes something as simple as this is all it takes. IMHO OWS failed because it never found anything like this. The 1% stuff was too full of contradictions and complications, it splintered rather than united.


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 15:18 | 3326973 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

to make this statement

Mario Monti: "he is a bankruptcy trustee on behalf of the banks"

it also means that he understands that italy is a corporation, thus legal fiction, thus it has shareholders (owners).  i suggest that hofjuden are the true owners of italy corp. including its inhabitants that call themselves italians, aka debt slaves

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:48 | 3325440 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

If he's half as good a comic as he is a politician, I can't wait to see his show some day.


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:51 | 3325453 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Part of a great funny show of Beppe Grillo, previously posted on ZeroHedge

with English subtitles

'Beppe Grillo about the money system', terrific:

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:48 | 3325442 blindman
blindman's picture

THE BEATLES - Strawberry Fields Forever
"debts that can't be paid won't be paid." m.h.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:49 | 3325445 luckylongshot
luckylongshot's picture

Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction..who would have imagined that somewhere in Europe a political party would emerge on a platform of wanting to stop the banksters. Then who could have imagined it would be headed by a comedian and  that it would pick up a third of the vote? Surely this was not something the Rothschild zionists foresaw as they planned their theft of Europe's wealth. Hopefully it will be the first of many bad surprises those scumbags have coming their way

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:03 | 3325487 Mr. Hudson
Mr. Hudson's picture

Rothschild did not envision nuclear weapons when he laid out his blueprint and planned WW3. But, he most likely saw that there would be upstarts who would attack the central banking system, and amass a large following. The Rothschild Matrix will handle this "problem" with impunity.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 12:33 | 3326242 el Gallinazo
el Gallinazo's picture

The Rothchild Matrix is playing a game of "whack-a-mole" and they seem to be having a very hard time keeping up recently.  They, like the film Matrix, derives its energy from the deluded human population willingly gifting it to them, so let us not be so generous in our donations of energy and power, even (and particularly) in our thoughts.  My feeling is that they are currently worried and desperate.  They appear to have abandoned their gradualist tactics of General Fabius Maximus (or what David Icke calls the tippy-toe two step) in favor for an ASAP global lockdown, with its inevitable counter reaction.  It seems to me that (unlike the Rolling Stones) they no longer feel that time's on their side.  

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:45 | 3325863 Pampalona
Pampalona's picture

We need more comedians.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:20 | 3327772 mkhs
mkhs's picture

How are things in Euskadi? 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:56 | 3325467 UGrev
UGrev's picture

TOP NEWS!!! Beppe Grillo found dead of apparent suicide. His wounds included two bullet holes to the head, 5 broken ribs, a slit throat, broken fingers (all of them), broken back, a bizarre cattle stamp on his forhead and the gouging out of his eyes removal of his tongue...through his throat. 


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:39 | 3325606 CuttingEdge
CuttingEdge's picture

Where the EU Commissariats differ from the likes of Putin, for example, is simply that they don't have a half empty scrotum between them.


Which is why the whole EU political dream will fail. Sooner rather than later.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 11:07 | 3325929 el Gallinazo
el Gallinazo's picture

Yeah, there's talk of moving the Texas Book Depository to Rome, just in case.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 12:12 | 3326154 jldpc
jldpc's picture

Very Clever! Very insightful. You are a deep intellect. Kep it up.  

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 12:05 | 3326132 Haager
Haager's picture

That was no suicide, it's just an accident happened on his way to the front door to pick the fresh newspaper.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 13:46 | 3326474 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

You are thinking of Dr David Kelly in Oxfordshire

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 08:59 | 3325477 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

I hope that no ZH members -- aside from those who are paid to be here -- thought, even before this interview, that Grillo was 'simple minded'.

Who is more likely to be simple-minded?  A man who makes his living using his wits to make people laugh, or a member of the 'elite' 'technocrats' who has achieved his position through no virtue other than his connections, and an eager willingness to betray his nation, and his species?


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:57 | 3325665 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Yikes!  And by "those who are paid to be here" I do *not* mean you, Mr. Durden, sir.

I mean our collection of trolls.


Wed, 03/13/2013 - 11:04 | 3325922 el Gallinazo
el Gallinazo's picture

Agree with all you write, Mick, except that should read "Messrs." Durden. :-)

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:00 | 3325478 q99x2
q99x2's picture

If Pat Paulson would have won in the 1970s we wouldn't be in this mess.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:12 | 3325517 shayneals shayneals
shayneals shayneals's picture


Before they decided to go back to their national currency they would set up capital flow restictions to stop flight of capital in and out of the banking sector. they would then need to renegade on their euro debt that is non secured. they could at this point nationalise all german assets to get back all the assets the germans have stolen through commitments forced on the people by the greek elite who borrowed fraudelently and embezzled the rest. If they were smart, the greek government would take a look at all the houses the greek elite have bought in hamburg/berlin etc and then arrest the elite when they are in greece and settle criminal cases of fraud with financial payouts and no jail time.

The euro has been great for countries who run trade surpluses and terrible for deficit countries. Trade has been unbalanced and it has led to surplus countries financing deficit countries to consumer their products. its classic mercantilism, all the money lent out that can not be paid back the creditors are trying to seize national assets. this is brutal financial imperialism under the guise of a common marketplace. 

Europe was great for the elite in every country and terrible for everyone else in the deficit countries and good for most of the people in the surplus countries. that does not sound like a fair common marketplace and therefore the euro and the eu has been a moralistic social failure.

its good a comedian can see that

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:32 | 3325579 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Gonzalo Lira wrote time ago an interesting piece on how a breakout would function and how the very existance of lots of EUR would give an immediate boost of badly needed FX reserves to the country breaking out

according to your view gold would be even worse than the EUR - and yet many here maintain that gold would be better

I don't agree that a weak currency solves problems - imho it's a palliative, at best

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:20 | 3325537 israhole
israhole's picture

Good thing Italians are white, they have nothing to worry about!

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:35 | 3325591 yogibear
yogibear's picture

May it spread to other countries. The banksters in Brussels must be steaming mad.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 12:15 | 3326165 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

But the bankers who own The Fed are ecstatic. With the Euro on the ropes, any threat to the dollar's supremacy as the GRC is mitigated.

As long as it keeps its GRC status, they can print more (debt) money. And more US debt only means more profits (wealth transfer) to the Elite. Toward which end the ploticians in both parties are doing their job to aid & abet in this national Ponzi.

Few people -- including some ZH readers -- see this big picture.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:37 | 3325600 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Italian bonds are now trading a mere ( 6 BPS) under spain now.


  Spain 10-Year 4.767 4.737 4.767 4.724 0.030 0.63% 13:35:08   Italy 10-Year 4.710 4.600 4.718 4.610 0.111 2.39% 13:33:47
Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:45 | 3325633 paint it red ca...
paint it red call it hell's picture

Beppe has made it onto my foreign hero list with Nigel Farage and the entire country of Iceland..

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 13:59 | 3326520 Colonial Intent
Colonial Intent's picture

Nigel farage, you mean the guy whose funded by the city of london and has lunch meetings with mr murdoch?

Funny choice of hero.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 09:47 | 3325639 Atticus Finch
Atticus Finch's picture

Harry Truman with hair and a beard.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:08 | 3325699 Winston of Oceania
Winston of Oceania's picture

Exactly WHOM in Germany has been made rich? In a short while the banksters will have printed away any advantage the German people will have had. He would do well to embrace the German people and not the politicians. No one anywhere is better off with leaders who feed at the public trough... (a freebe for the Limerick king)

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:45 | 3325864 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture




Without any doubt: what is going to happen in the future ... there will be less.


Grillo is a middle-aged angry man. His description of Monti as bankruptcy trustee is spot on. The step after technocracy in the post-petroleum world is capitulation on the part of the establishment, the bankruptcy of the country/state/city in question (Detroit) and rise of factions and chaos. In this sense, Grillo and Five Star are parts of the problem rather than a solution.


There is nothing to be done to 'fix' Italy or Europe (or the US), no conventional solutions. Yes euro/no euro won't make any difference over the longer term. Fiddling with interest/exchange rates and changing governments from Tweedledee to tweedledum won't make a difference either. Underway is 'conservation by other means'.


As with Greece, which flirted with Syriza and Tspiris then returned to fragments of technocracy and an increasingly tenuous hold on the near-term past, so it will be with Five Star. Nobody in Europe wants to jeopardize the euro ... even the secessionists in Spain and the beaten-down Portuguese and Irish.


Euro = gasoline.


It doesn't matter what evil the European bankers do, what matters is what the Saudis and Russians accept for payment. It's not likely they will accept monopoly money from little bankrupt countries like Italy. This is why the euro was created in the first place!


Under circumstances of euro failure there will be seen to be 'economic growt... ' sorry, theft by the US, China and India as these countries absorb Europe's fuel consumption. The Europeans will endure fuel poverty (as in UK and Greece).


Oil producers/OPEC will sink or swim with the dollar, they know that nobody will trade non-renewable gold for petroleum that is simply burned up driving aimlessly in circles. Driving doesn't pay, it's an activity like golf, there is no return, given a hard currency and diminished unsecured lending there is insufficient demand for petroleum to keep producers in business. The producers want a currency that is hard but not too hard.


Dollars = gasoline, too.


Where the euro is safe is that China holds a trillion in euro paper and will use its influence to keep the dead-on-its-feet 'fiat' in business until it has swapped its stash for oil, coal or other commodities, after which time the Europeans will have to bid for dollars like the rest of the world ... or do without petroleum.


Globalism & international debt-currencies = another failed energy hedge.


Ultra-hard currencies and specie = stringent conservation and collapse of waste-based economy. Bring it on!



Wed, 03/13/2013 - 11:25 | 3325980 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Without any doubt: what is going to happen in the future ... there will be less.

Oil producers/OPEC will sink or swim with the dollar, they know that nobody will trade non-renewable gold for petroleum that is simply burned up driving aimlessly in circles.

Globalism & international debt-currencies = another failed energy hedge....

All these remarks are spot on and point to what will follow the post pax americana petrodollar hegemony reset. This current race to bottom, frenetic spiral of financialista capitalism in death throes will oblige all to think their paradigm again in radical terms; with out wthout war as part of reset.

One question our generation asked itself in October 1973, when the Arabs challenged the west during 6 day war to impose their OPEC cartel, is :  WHY the US didn't renege on their FDR 1945 handshake and just do to Saud what they had done to Mossadegh twenty years earlier.

One answer may be the cumultative effect of Cold war games in 'Nasserian ME', Nam war and US deficits, and... Watergate scandal

It had Nixon hog-tied to open a new military front then with Israel on a broader basis; aka Saud + Egypt as the enemy.  

Nixon backed down and Kissinger had a big part to play in that decision; as did the Oil lobbies who would win either way. Exxon then, (unlike Shell and BP) advocated it was too risky to jeopardise their Aramco oil fields to Saud knee jerk and major sabotage of production; counterproductive for west.

Anyways, the USA got sucked in long term into the Saud partnership.

So you are right the oil became the stranglehold on west's economic future...

The Reaganomics was just a follow on as was NWO, relying entirely on "cheap" imported oil.

We didn't solve that original energy sin and Nixon in 1973 made it worse by adding on the fiat free floating debasement indexed to that very oil. 

So its back to the drawing boards with a vengeance ONCE we climb out from under this financialista rock. 

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