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Guest Post: Argentines Escaping Capital Controls With Bitcoins

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Simon Black of Sovereign Man blog,

Several hundred miles east of Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of Congo, the mighty Kasai river forms the boundary between two little known tribes of central Africa-- the Bushong and the Lele.

Ostensibly there should be scant difference between the two; they're separated only by a river, and they share a common language, art, and ancestry.

Yet their economic differences between are vast. As anthropologist Mary Douglas put it, "The Lele are poor, while the Bushong are rich... Everything that the Lele have or can do, the Bushong have more and can do better."

We've seen these differences before-- East vs West Germany. North vs. South Korea. Similar people, different ideals. On one side, economic freedom flourishes. On the other, it's central planning and totalitarian control.

South America is becoming a similar case study, with the Andes forming a sort of "Golden Curtain" separating two clear sides.

On this side, the Chilean economy is thriving. The peso is strong. Corruption is low. Economic freedom is high. And their standard of living is rising.

On the other side of the Andes, President Cristina Fernandez has a stranglehold over what's left of the Argentine economy. Inflation is rampant, corruption is incorrigible, and freedom is waning.

We've talked about this before; a month ago, I was in Buenos Aires on the day that Fernandez announced a ban on coupon-style advertising, just days after she imposed a price freeze at grocery stores around the country.

Price controls, media controls... they're all part of the same tired playbook that morally bankrupt politicians in financially bankrupt countries have routinely fallen back on for centuries.

Fernandez's most insidious move has been to FORCE Argentines to hold the rapidly depreciating Argentine peso. She has restricted her people from changing pesos into other currencies, including gold, as well as created obstacles to move funds abroad.

Many Argentines have reached their breaking points and are doing something about it. We're seeing this first hand by the steady stream of Argentine citizens lining up at the immigration office in Santiago seeking residency.

My friend Sir Charles at PricedinGold.com wrote me this morning from Argentina's Salta province (near Doug Casey's lovely property in Cafayate) and told me that TEA Turismo, a local tour operator and rental car agency there has started accepting BITCOINS.

If you're not familiar, bitcoins are digital currency units that are not controlled by any government. Bitcoins can be exchanged for goods, services, and other currencies, privately and anonymously.

For obvious reasons, Bitcoins are becoming increasingly popular in Argentina as people seek any means necessary to survive the economic destruction.

Needless to say, it would have been a hell of a lot easier to take these steps BEFORE it all hit the fan... not after.

This is an important lesson for the rest of us. There are consequences to printing money with wanton abandon. There are consequences to reaching an unsustainable debt situation. And, when the writing is on the wall, there are consequences when you delay taking action to protect yourself.

Diversifying income, assets, and personal interests abroad is a critical aspect of this. International diversification is something that the wealthy have been doing for centuries. But with so much modern technology at our disposal, these options are now available to ANYONE.

At least, while the window of opportunity is still open.

The pace of Draconian legislation is changing the landscape quickly. Very quickly. That's why I put together the Offshore Tactics Workshop we're holding here in Chile at the end of this month.

It's too late to sign up for the event... the workshop sold out a few months ago almost immediately. But I've hired a professional Hollywood crew to film every minute of it.

Quite simply, the event (and the video kit) will showcase the most powerful set of actionable international diversification options ever presented, along with step-by-step instructions.

Ship your IRA overseas? Set up a rock solid trust and foreign bank account?  Establish residency in Chile? Move gold abroad? Contact these exact people, and follow these precise steps, 1, 2, 3.

To be completely candid, there's simply no one else out there with the experience or contacts to be able to deliver such a vast array of experts and actionable intelligence.

 

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Wed, 03/13/2013 - 17:52 | 3327706 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

simon please send pictures of your "event". I'd love to see one with you and your keynote speaker Snufalufugus.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:01 | 3327725 DJ Happy Ending
DJ Happy Ending's picture

Why is Simon always telling people to store their money thousands of miles from where they live? Doesn't seem very practical if the SHTF.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:06 | 3327740 CH1
CH1's picture

Wait, I though Bitcoin was the Devil's spawn.

It must be bad, must be bad, must be bad. Right?

Hurry up, you trolls - say something witty!

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:18 | 3327764 WayBehind
WayBehind's picture

Is the new Pope also using Bitcoin? 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:24 | 3327780 nmewn
nmewn's picture

If he is, its going to make passing the offering plate interesting...paper or digital?...lol.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:37 | 3327800 zaphod
zaphod's picture

Geez, a few people in SA started using bitcoins and the price has exploded $10 to $45 in a month or so. Just wait till it goes mainstream in 1 or 2 countries like this, then a few more, then the USoA.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:50 | 3327819 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Let me know when employers start paying with them ;-)

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:03 | 3327859 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

All those who laugh at bitcoin will buy it when TBTF or currencies collapse.  EVERYONE.  

 

As TSHTF you might just suddenly discover that you have to send value to your kid or family member 10 military checkpoints away, by then you will come to some thug that has bitcoin, and you will beg him to take your junk silver for it.  Not having bitcoin is a major mistake, I believe.  

 

But who am I to say anything?  Just one more fucking moron on ZH.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:14 | 3327883 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Reserve currency my caboose.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 00:30 | 3328701 Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

I've actually done my last 10 purchases on GunBroker via BTC.  In the same manner that PM's didn't make sense to most just 4 years ago (and still even today), BTC falls in the same realm.  

Yes, it's digital.  Yes there's risk just like anything else but I for one like having the added option of not needing to back up the truck and move all my PM's around should that time come.  

Bubble / speculation it may be, but I got in last year thanks to Mr. Keiser so I ain't complainin'.

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 06:29 | 3329003 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Ya know, I'm getting tired of all this bitching and complaining about BitCoin.  Or bitCoin or Bit Coin or however the fuck it's actually spelled.  I'm going to try it.  I'm certainly not going up to my eyeballs in it, but I'll load up maybe a grand and try using it for real-world stuff.  Hell, it's all just fiat anyway, right?

I just can not possibly even understand the discussion if I've never tried it and have no frame of reference.

Plus it appeals to my inner "diversification demon".  Not all eggs in one basket (nor gold in one tragic boating or sinkhole accident).

Ya fucking happy now?  I'm gonna try it.  You got a convert.  Now leave me the fuck alone for a few months.  If the black helicopters come flying up over the ridge at me or my internet connection mysteriously fails, well, I guess you'll be waiting a lot longer than a few months to hear back from me.  But when I come back with my verdict on this very unusual "currency" I won't be taking and crap from those who haven't actually used it.

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:27 | 3327916 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

don't put all your eggs in one basket.

it's just one of several alternatives. gold springs to mind.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:44 | 3327971 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

I have gold.  But the price supression there is fucking raging.  

What the price of bitcoin tells me is that when gold moves, it will explode like a volcano--there will be no physical anywhere.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:48 | 3327986 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

it isn't really.

i've got gold. i've got silver. i don't need to check the price on a daily basis - in fact i don't give a shit.

if you can't afford to invest money, then don't do it.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:44 | 3327968 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

Deep Packet Inspections. The internet is the last place you want to be hiding anything in a few years.

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:47 | 3327982 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

...says a guy with zero understanding of cryptography and steganography.  All that DPI can see is that there's pure randomness being transferred.  And if you use steganography, you can send anything hidden in a video, image, or song.  

Of course, everything has to be open-source.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:06 | 3328048 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

. . . says a guy with zero understanding of what fiat ponzi is

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:11 | 3328202 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture

You're right Papasmurf, you have zero understanding of what a ponzi is.

Thanks for coming clean.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:35 | 3328124 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

"Steganalysis is the art and science of detecting messages hidden using steganography; this is analogous to cryptanalysis applied to cryptography."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganalysis

In the future IF bitcoins gain any real form of popularity besides this current honeymoon phase of early adopters, you can bet your sweet ass there will be just as many counter-measures put in place by authorities with Utah-sized data centres, bullshit crazy computer power and unlimited funding to discover who is sending packages across the internet out of clear view of Saurons eyeball. Just having some obfuscation on your packets will be enough to focus Saurons eye on you if the authorities get their internet laws in place. It's all just the beginning of this stuff, the beginning of bitcoins and the beginning of a draconian internet. At some point their paths will cross and you don't want to be holding the bag of bitcoins when that happens.

I agree if you have money to spare, play the bitcoin roulette and if your lucky you might make some money but if your listening to the hype and thinking they'll be worth a $100,000 or a million dollars in the future and plan to pour your money into them to get rich - your going to be left holding a bunch of rotten tulips.

BitCoins have a long hard road ahead of them before becoming anything other than a novelty.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:04 | 3328323 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

Yeah, because a gov't that is too incompetent to win any war or to even run a fucking postal office will *simultaneously* break RIPEMD160() & SHA256() & Private keys.  

Without a single Bradley Manning warning people.  No amount of violence can break the laws of mathematics.

Yeah, they're going to pull that off.  I'm sure they will.

 

 

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 23:02 | 3328437 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

The wars aren't to be won, they are to be dragged out for contracting, big money profits and especially for human behaviour and crowd control studies to prepare humanity for the next phase of their New Order. Haven't you worked that out yet? They could win any war they wanted pressing the right buttons but what advantage does that bring them when these wars have never been a contest they are trying to win.

Running super high tech facillities to control the internet and EVERYTHING that passes across the exchanges is exactly what they are spending their time on - it's part of the larger war effort by the control freaks.

Look it up, hit up google and do some research on the other side of the technology - the NSA and DOD have already been running steganalysis programs for years and are well aware they need to be able to identify and even break these methods. It's not something only the super smart bitcoins uses know about even if they think that's the case, the spooks are well aware of it and working on having an answer to it.

While i think bitcoins can make money in the short term, any success they gain into the future will be thwarted by a much larger brain trust with unlimited funding and technology that will render them useless if their only use now is privacy.

My point is - don't be the last one holding the bag. Make your money now, buy them low, sell them high but don't listen to the calls of $100,000 or a Million$ because ANY success for bitcoins will result in a 10 fold attempt by the spooks to identify and counter their use. That's the fundemental problem for bitcoins and there's no legit answer to that problem - only because right now it isn't an issue. 

You can make money on lots of early startup concepts but most fail after the initial hype. What bitcoins needs is some assurance they won't fail when Saurons eye notices them, unti then it's not a legit investment for people to park money into, you might as well just gamble on football or tennis if you want to flip your money quickly. Bet on Federer and Djokovic since they win 95/100 times. That's easy money too.

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 01:37 | 3328736 Robsabi
Robsabi's picture

They're breaking Swiss banking secrecy laws as we speak. Once upon a time, these were considered inviolable too. Where the money is that's needed to preserve the entrenched power structure, they'll go, and find a way to collect their due. Either by brute force attacks, or finessing the right resources behind scenes. I've seen too many scientists declare things to be impossible, until it turned out they weren't. Airplane impacts will never cause the World Trade towers to collapse. "Oh, we were thinking only about the impact forces, we didn't consider the effect of burning jet fuel." We only need to make the sea walls around the Fukushima power plant able to withstand a 5.7 meter tsunami, because powerful earthquakes don't happen here. "Oh, we didn't realize there was a subduction zone off the coast capable of causing megathrust earthquakes."

It's not that the laws of physics and mathematics are flawed. It's the scientists/engineers who consistently mistake all the contingencies they're aware of for all the contingencies that are possible that are the issue.

At least you can hide your gold in little pockets buried all over the place, if that is your wont. But the internet can have its plug pulled in one fell swoop, should the powers that be decide it's in their best interests. As indeed the US government is trying to get the right to do even now. Good luck digging up your bitcoins from their virtual hidey holes then.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:58 | 3328023 fonestar
fonestar's picture

The "internet" as we know it will evolve and adapt into P2P darknets.  What we can't do, we code towards.  Where we can't get, we route around.  What we want to hide, we encrypt.  Look for the unintended consequence dupes in government to push for more internet legislation.  The end result will be an increase in robustness, privacy and ease of use.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:20 | 3328080 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

TSA deeply inspected my packet last time I boarded an airplane. Next time I expect dinner, and drinks

DPI cannot decrypt, without private keys. This is why we call SSL the Universal Firewall bypass.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:22 | 3328078 Haole
Haole's picture

I don't know why you bother anymore Half_A_Billion... I have better things to do than to waste time talking about BTC on ZH anymore but good on ya'.

Hey look! Just one day after the "crash" in which a global currency was fixed in 25 minutes and all the BTC slag pumpers on ZH were wetting their pants talking like it went to zero, it's higher and demand is strengthening markedly.

All I can do is laugh at most ZH comments on BTC now because the majority of them are made by people that don't have the faintest idea what they're talking about.

Cheers HAB!

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:23 | 3328095 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

meh, discussing in btcoin threads is like masturbating with a cheese grate - slightly amusing, but mostly painful (thanks, andrew dice clay)

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:31 | 3328394 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

It's like a sociological experiment.  

We've all read all those stories about the morons at Xerox showing the entire mac to Steve Jobs, who stole it all; the stories of the morons at yahoo who didn't buy google for 100k (or something like that), the massive takeover of linux, wikipedia, and so on and so forth.  

Here we are again on the start of a great breakthrough, a key moment of creative destruction, and it's just fucking FUN to see that some people simply do not know what's coming.  They simply cannot see it--by any means.  

When bitcoin fell to $4.50 last year I screamed to a very close friend "you have to run and get this shit now", and he said "yeah, sounds good".  The phrase that I hear most frequently by my close friends is: "goddammit I should have bought some btc".   Last week he comes to me and says, "you should have screamed more, put a gun to my head," and so on.  

 

 

 

 

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:02 | 3328184 bdrichards
bdrichards's picture

OK, so currencys "collapse", and our friend "Half a Billion" assumes the internet will just go chugging along as if nothing happened. I don't know whether BitCoin will survive and prosper or crash and burn, but I am always constantly amazed that kids, sitting in front of their computers or smart phones all day long, have total faith in all the infrastructure that goes into allowing us to use these devices. Really, if you think currencys are going to collapse, this implies far more serious disruptions to our society than you might imagine. Consider yourself lucky to have electricity for an hour a day under those dire circumstances.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:21 | 3328224 pods
pods's picture

I have nothing against bitcoins.  Or any other alternative currency.

But you bring up a very important point.  If things go really downhill, the last thing we are going to have is electricity and functioning networks.

If things muddle along they way they are and we have some semblance of normalcy, bitcoins are not going to reach the value that many propose.  If it becomes a large enough threat it will be stomped out.

And since a very small minority have or use bitcoins, the majority will have little problem stomping out the minority's rights. (Ask Bernard von Nothaus how that works.  And a Bitcoin is a COIN.)

Same as it ever was.

Riddle me this, what if there was a concerted effort on the part of our alphabet soup agencies to show the al CIA Duh was using bitcoins to move their dirty terrist money around?

Not only would most be afraid to accept them, but those who have them would be sitting on a digital pile of treason.

Compare that with gold or silver, which is recognized and accepted almost anywhere in any conditions, and the answer is pretty simple.

pods

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:27 | 3328237 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

I saw an article in the MSM a few months back which made an attempt to link gold mining in South America to the financing of Terrorists. We can't have the peons simply picking it up off the ground and making an unsupervised living now can we??

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:39 | 3328258 pods
pods's picture

I hope so, because that is EXACTLY what I am doing in my free time.

Hard work for a hobby, but rewarding.

pods

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:49 | 3328280 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

That is what I do all summer long.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:53 | 3328293 pods
pods's picture

It is very addicting.  Last night found my first picker.  :)

The small creek that is close is low flow, so after every rain I dump in my bazooka gold trap.  

Gold Fever.

pods

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:59 | 3328310 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Get a metal detector if you have not already done so. I do a lot of desert prospecting and it makes it real nice. I'm still buried in snow, so I'm still in research mode, lol.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 07:51 | 3329072 pods
pods's picture

That is something I have been researching.  Here in the east, it is tough to find land to prospect (all private) and detecting is even worse (civil war sites, etc off limits).  There is the beach though.  Most of the gold I have come across is small, and even a pinpointer coil would miss so I would be limited to coin shooting.

I should still be researching, but someo of they yellow showed up in my test pans.  :)

Good luck!

pods 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 09:57 | 3329292 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Gold is where you find it. Good luck to you!!

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 01:36 | 3328800 Chariots of the Feds
Chariots of the Feds's picture

Well said pods, my thoughts exactly.  ZH taught me that if you don't physically hold it, you don't own it nor can you protect it.  The dangerous assumption in dealing with BTC is of stability and technology.  If things become less stable or completely unravel, good luck getting access to it or kiss it goodbye.  If the power grid is down/unrealiable, the internet is kill switched or the TPTB see it as a threat they will do all in their power to crush it, and then, poof it's gone.  Maybe it's a great insurance to add to planning, but I would not put all my eggs in one basket.  

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:42 | 3328433 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

-->"OK, so currencys "collapse", and our friend "Half a Billion" assumes the internet will just go chugging along as if nothing happened."

 

When markets are optimistic, they overshoot to one side.  When they are pessimistic, they overshoot to the other side.

Internet in Zimbabwe is running just fine, before, during, and after currency collapse, brother: 

http://www.internetworldstats.com/af/zw.htm

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 05:11 | 3328960 Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture

I reckon there is going to be a big difference between the collapse of the ZIM $ and the possible collapse of the US $. Zimbabwe was kept running by the out side world.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 12:48 | 3329829 Citium
Citium's picture

So we have one of the main bitcoin guys going through the CIA's front company In-Q-Tel to talk about bitcoin within days of it flash crashing to ZERO with no buyers. You know the  Bitcoin is now officially been co-opted by the CIA. Also you guys have no idea who this Satoshi even is. Please explain the first flash crash which was said to have been hacked and this last flash crash of almost 25% of its worth was due to overload or some problem within the system itself.

 

SO with knowing all of these things how in God's name can you put your faith into something with absolutely zero intrinsic value that obviously has serious concerns with it's stability. I want something that people can touch and know has real wealth and protects purchasing power.... Silver and Gold have 5,000 years of history backing them as real money not currency. Like one other person said when this collapse happens and the digital illusory wealth in back accounts and bitcoins dissapears you will need hard assets. That is the paradigm shift happening is that we want competing currencies and that could be bitcoin but to trust anything that has all the problems and holes in it's function seems a bit retarded. Most of the people on here supporting bitcoin have to try to talk over everyone and become militant about its function as a decentralized currency. The precious metals folks have thousands of years of history on our side and a product that doesn't need a power source, USB drive, passwords, internet connections just to buy an apple at a market or a chicken off a farm.

 

Trade in my worthless silver??? LOL !! Seriously I Have no problem with people owning bit coins. Good luck is all I can say you are playing with fire. These people telling you that bit coins are the new hit wealth preserver and that you can make all this money by doing absolutely nothing sounds just like people trying to tell you to get into the stock market right now at all time highs. I'm sorry I will stick with whats real:

 

Precious Metals

Farm Land

Animals

Workable Buildings/Farms

Storable Food & Water

Guns/Ammo

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:15 | 3327892 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Like he said, by then, it may be to late.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:46 | 3327980 CH1
CH1's picture

Let me know when employers start paying with them

Smart employees started taking it some time ago.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:56 | 3328008 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well thats news to me...what employers?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:39 | 3328135 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

-chirp chirp-

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:58 | 3328175 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Farmville...........

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:28 | 3328238 newdoobie
newdoobie's picture

I'll harvest your crop for 6 bitcoins

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:40 | 3328260 pods
pods's picture

Do they have virtual farmer's daughters?

pods

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:51 | 3328288 digitalhermit
digitalhermit's picture

nmewn: Let me know when employers start paying with them ;-)

The internet archive has started paying a portion of employee salaries with Bitcoin (at their request). But that was last month's news:

http://blog.archive.org/2013/02/21/employees-to-be-paid-in-bitcoin-pleas...

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 06:57 | 3329027 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Thanks for that...and thats fine.

I believe what myself and others are saying is, we just don't want people to get hurt financially. When a currency implodes, the lights go out because workers at the power plant and communications providers (and taxis drivers and ships captains bus drivers, you name it) won't accept that currency for their labor.

No power, no communications, no internet, no access to money. You better have something tangible in your pocket to trade for.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:25 | 3327785 TheCanadianAustrian
TheCanadianAustrian's picture

I know it's just her dollars that she's made publicly known, but let me be the first to say that I would "invest liquidity" in her "bit coin".

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:55 | 3327837 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

More importantly, How resilient are BTC to maritime mishaps? Does my laptop need to become flotsam, or jetsam?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 07:26 | 3329048 wintermute
wintermute's picture

All you need to preserve the bitcoins you hold is the private key - which is about 36 upper and lowercase letters and numbers.

It can be printed on paper. It can also be hammered into a small metal sheet with letter and number punches. That sheet will last years on a sunken ship until recovered!

Then the private key can be entered into a website with a bitcoin wallet, presto, your hoard of bitcoins can be used immediately to buy goods or exchange for fiat$ (if you still want that stuff by then).

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:38 | 3327803 ejmoosa
ejmoosa's picture

We'll soon refer to it as when the BHTF.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:50 | 3327994 CH1
CH1's picture

store their money thousands of miles from where they live? Doesn't seem very practical if the SHTF.

Depends on the amount of money. If you have more assets than you'd need to live on, storing it in a safer place makes sense.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:25 | 3328233 pods
pods's picture

I would tend to agree with this.  Store only what you can afford to be without around the world.  

I guess in that way it is kind of like a global stock market?

pods

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:16 | 3328073 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

Because when the SHTF and you can't leave the country your money will be on some offshore bank being pillaged by someone or that countries ruler. 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:20 | 3328219 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Why do these Agora newsletter writers and Doug Casey and the others always go on and on about ***king Argentina? 

The horribly corrupt Argentines have turned a geographic paradise into hell like the LibTurds did to Calliefornia.   The Peronists have been running the country into the ground for 60+ years.

Christiana Kirschner and the resat of the Peronistas should be hanging from lamp posts.  This evil bitch is like Pelosi with slightly less botox.

They are corrupt and lazy like the greeks.  Most South Americans hate these snobs who have pawned all their belongings as they have been robbed by the PEronistas.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:14 | 3328209 MoneyChasingReturns
MoneyChasingReturns's picture

Money, ideas, and intelligent people will always flow past borders. The dominance of old countries is a huge disadvantage in the modern world where you have fibre internet, 4G cellular, and brand new airports, bridges, and buildings all in emerging economies. Real estate appreciated 20-40% this year in Indonesia off the wealth and rising middle class from Crude Oil and Palm Oil. Another 100million risen to the global middle class clamoring for apartments. Argintina will collapse, europe will collapse, and america will collapse. But from the default in debts and economic disaster will come lots of smart people, foreign investors, and cheap assets to rise again.

Bitcoin and Litecoin are rising because they are ~10 million units. With Hedge funds, speculators, and global traders all trying to get in. It will be like apple only its REALLY REALLY tiny. So tulips here we come. These will provide huge short term gains for the ucky and brave few.

As an asset Bitcoin/Litecoin are a store of value. It means you can transfer millions of dollars quickly, but it has a major flaw. The trading market is so tiny any buy causes huge swings, and any rush to sell equal collapses. Bitcoing is not a way to "make" money with appreciation, its a way to secure a real world transaction without paying high transaction fees.

Yes it will go up, all things rise at the beginning of a large cycle. I'll stick to cashflowing real world assets. But when someone opens a bitcoin currency trading desk in Moscow and one in Switzerland, things will happen!

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:19 | 3328210 MoneyChasingReturns
MoneyChasingReturns's picture

Money, ideas, and intelligent people will always flow past borders. The dominance of old countries is a huge disadvantage in the modern world where you have fibre internet, 4G cellular, and brand new airports, bridges, and buildings all in emerging economies. Real estate appreciated 20-40% this year in Indonesia off the wealth and rising middle class from Crude Oil and Palm Oil. Another 100million people risen to the global middle class clamoring for apartments. Argentina will collapse, Europe will collapse, and America will collapse. But from the default in debts and economic disaster will come lots of smart people, foreign investors, and cheap assets to rise again.

Bitcoin and Litecoin are rising because they are ~10 million units. With Hedge funds, speculators, and global traders all trying to get in. It will be like Apple bubble, only its REALLY REALLY tiny. So tulips here we come. These will provide huge short term gains for the lucky and brave few. Don't be greedy, but be brave, sell too early and you will be fine. The "exit door" in bitcoin/litecoin is only large enough for a mouse, so the elephants of greed will take the largest losses in each panic.

As an asset Bitcoin/Litecoin are a store of value. It means you can transfer millions of dollars quickly, but it has a major flaw. The trading market is so tiny any buy causes huge swings, and any rush to sell equal collapses. Bitcoing is not a way to "make" money with appreciation, its a way to secure a real world transactions without paying high transaction fees. The money won't convert to currency(in amounts over $10,000 that "investors" use), It just stays in a digital wallet.

Yes it will go up, all things rise at the beginning of a large cycle. I'll stick to cashflowing real world assets. But when someone opens a Bitcoin currency trading desk in Moscow and one in Switzerland, things will happen!

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:45 | 3328441 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

Who runs argentina's fed? The bastard had to have gone to the Bernanke School of Minting. Those little buggers down there have been thru fiat hell.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 17:55 | 3327713 herpderp
herpderp's picture

Sorry, off topic, and apologies if the video is unavailable outside of the UK..but those of you that can see it should find it fairly amusing/bloodboiling: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21773651

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:01 | 3327727 venom
venom's picture

Do I trust bitcoin?  Nope.  Do I trust Singapore with my money?  Nope.  Chile?  Nope.  Mongolia?  Nope.  Uraguay?  Nope.  Switzerland?  Nope.  Norway?  Nope.  Do I trust Venom?  Yup.  I take the Hobbit approach.  I stash my goods in a chest and bury it behind my Hobbit hole.  I keep the rest of the paper stuff under my mattress.  My money trusts me and no one else.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:20 | 3327773 WayBehind
WayBehind's picture

Buy some land, gold or ammo and you dont have to worry about bitcoin or any other fake money ... such as USD

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:26 | 3327913 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

Kyle Bass just said, the TBTF are realizing their derivatives are going kaput.  If they fail, where's the banking system.  If they don't fail it's because the benefactors printed a supernova of fiat, and there will be no value there.

 

"Buy some land, gold or ammo and you dont have to worry about bitcoin or any other fake money ... such as USD"

 

Then the day you big macho cowboy will realize you would like to send some money to a family member that's 10 military checkpoints away, or to get meds, you will have to beg for a bitcoin thug to trade with you--and he will have the winning hand.  If you want bitcoin by then, you'll have to hand over your valuables, brother.

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:50 | 3328157 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Don't beg... tongue punch fart boxes.....  it pays better

Get started now while the gettings good BTC haters.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:29 | 3327918 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

do i really trust anyone with my money?

with the exception of my wife; no.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:51 | 3328461 Jon Bong Jovi
Jon Bong Jovi's picture

I don't trust my wife with my money at all. In fact, I've given up on educating her and focusing on my kids now instead. She's soo far gone. She thinks Obama is fiscally responsible. You do not want to be around bill time.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:55 | 3328167 Long_Xau
Long_Xau's picture

That's right. So you've established trust with some tangible (maybe precious metals such as gold and/or silver) and intangible (paper, your own knowledge, etc.) assets. And those all require you to figure out some technicalities for you to gain trust in them, for example with gold you need to understand why it is rare and very hard to counterfeit (and obviously you need to trust your sources), you need to trust your scale for giving you the right weight, etc. Once you figure those details you can be confident that trusting a piece of gold is as good as trusting yourself. If you ever get fooled, it would be your own fault. If you try to do the same with e.g. the US dollar, you will probably find that it is essentially impossible to establish long term trust with a crucial entity, namely the FED (although it might be OK for a little while). Now think about it - it would probably be useful to you to have what Bitcoin promises to you, only if you can indeed be sure that it works as promised. See what it promises: worldwide transactions with no third parties. If you try to establish trust with Bitcoin, as with the other things you already trust, you need to figure out some technicalities in the beginning. Find a trusted authority on payment systems and currencies (mind you, bitcoins are not money by some definitions, e.g. Austrian school, but they are a currency. Bitcoin is also a secure payment system for the currency units called bitcoins.). Find a trusted authority on computers that has an opinion about it. Find a trusted authority on cryptography that has an opinion about it. See what they think and/or dig deeper yourself if you like. At worst, you will have wasted some time only to find out that yet another thing can't be trusted. However, this new thing called Bitcoin might just turn out to be something that you can trust and that gives you more freedom.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:17 | 3328215 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Paragraphs help.  That's a shotgun blast of words right there LX.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:48 | 3328454 TruthHunter
TruthHunter's picture

 "behind my Hobbit hole."

 

OOh! Maybe you shouldn't trust your big mouth. However, your lack of foresight assures me that it wouldn't be worth bothering

with such a tiny little stash...  :-)

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:01 | 3327728 XitSam
XitSam's picture

'...near Doug Casey's "lovely" property in Cafayate...'

How long will it be lovely, Simon, with Argentina crashing. Are the walls higher than the ladders?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:08 | 3327743 CH1
CH1's picture

How long will it be lovely, Simon, with Argentina crashing.

You really need to get out and see the world.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:05 | 3327736 WelfareFTW
WelfareFTW's picture

moar government, moar socialism... moar moar moar

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:30 | 3327924 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

In 1913, Argentina was the 3rd richest country on the planet.

And then they elected a socialist.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:16 | 3328074 Not My Real Name
Not My Real Name's picture

I wonder if all the dead people who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 were aware of this.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:12 | 3327750 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

Unfortunately, the site doesn't give much details.

http://www.teaturismo.com/page/Default.aspx?sCode=HOME

Anyways, that's the ace in the hole for Bitcoin?

 

If someone knows spanish please contact them and ask.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:14 | 3327757 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Capital formation.  Ideas next.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:14 | 3327758 kito
kito's picture

ahh chile......a place thats peaceful and safe for simon until they hang all americans for causing the destruction of the entire global system....................

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:16 | 3327760 kito
kito's picture

oh wait, seems CHILE also enjoys plowing their populace with DEBT!!!...............

 

 

http://www.educationincrisis.net/learn-more/articles/item/541-chilean-st...

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:37 | 3327945 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

Chile has 10% debt/gdp you human biped.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:48 | 3328156 kito
kito's picture

75% of chiles wealth went to the top 10 percent last year...about 10% of chileans have incomes on par with developed countries............40% of chileans report that its very difficult to live on their current income.................................there are more credit cards issued in chile than there are citizens............chiles citizen debt to income ratio has passed 70% and is growingt......................chile HALF A BILLION....HAS DECIDED THAT THE ROAD TO PROSPERITY IS THROUGH DEBT AND EASY CREDIT.....but i forgive you for your ignorance....only because of your avatar

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:19 | 3327765 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

So if you are already a rich bitch who likes to dabble in niche markets in exotic lands Simon has a plan for you.......

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:01 | 3327855 kito
kito's picture

yes, come to chile and buy a casita in the middle of the paramo for gringo prices.........................................

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:06 | 3328190 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Simon doesn't care about gringo pricing, he's a fuckin master of disguise.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:12 | 3328204 kito
kito's picture

i almost want to buy a casita just to meet him............do you think they would let me meet him???!! oh joy!!!!!..............

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:45 | 3328257 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

It's almost too bad the workshop was sold out in the sentence following it's announcement. Just catch the 2am infomercial for more infomation on this amazing opportunity, and for a limited time he'll throw in your choice of either  a Ronco polishing cloth to use on your gold eagles before you wisk them off to locations unknown,.......or for a mere two dollars more a shiny silver spoon to use while indulging in dulce de leche and basking in the sun on your own private beach, (beach, and dulce de leche not included). But wait, there's more............

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:01 | 3328317 kito
kito's picture

free shipping and handling????!!!!?????????? please!!!!!!!....................

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:21 | 3327776 nmewn
nmewn's picture

It seems like only a decade ago that Argentina was having a currency/inflation crisis.

Oh wait...

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:24 | 3327783 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

I thought Argentines were escaping by becoming Popes.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:28 | 3327787 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

All the bitcon shills are going to love this article. 

Tyler really does keep everyone happy here... even the bitcon pumpers. 

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:11 | 3327873 riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

hater

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:42 | 3327809 Rusty Diggins
Rusty Diggins's picture

So what's the difference between those two tribes???

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:34 | 3327933 Matt
Matt's picture

One has liberty and one has central planning. Everything else is approximately the same. At least, according to the article, if you are refering to Lele and Bushongs.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:23 | 3328093 Rusty Diggins
Rusty Diggins's picture

Although I was being facetious, I was thinking that perhaps Simon would be a bit more specific, ergo what particular flavor of of tribal capitalism/socialism was being practiced.  I felt his intro, which was an allegory was too brief.  But I'm funny that way.

 

Otherwise although I am highly intrigued by btc, in it's current incarnation it is far too elitist, technologically to reach any form of mass exceptance.

 

It's another form of hedge that although I may hold, I will never trust completely.  And the farm will never be bet on it.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:48 | 3327814 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

don't cry for me argentina,  the pope will steal the gold back.  What is this guys real name?   Was he smuggled out of germany when he was young?   

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:19 | 3327897 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Not a chance, he brings the last of the dry powder wit um before they all jump off the 14th floor.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:50 | 3327821 Mesquite
Mesquite's picture

Capital fornication...

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 18:53 | 3327831 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Papital fornication...

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:04 | 3327863 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Half the Argentines with half a brain are now emigrants.

The other half are eeevil capitalist speculators providing things for which there is organic demand at market-determined prices. If they have to use bitcoin to do it, well, kudos to bitcoin and good for them.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:17 | 3327895 spooz
spooz's picture

What is with all the Bitcoins advertisements disguised as news lately?  

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:34 | 3327934 riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

yeah why cover a disruptive technology like this? we are happy with our government fiat. new stuff scares us. please stop the "ads" they make me have to think. life was way easier when I could just have all my money be issued by the government.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:42 | 3327960 spooz
spooz's picture

Sorry, I just don't see it as a subsitute for sovereign fiat. I'd rather talk about The Chicago Plan than some ponzi scheme, but NOBODY wants to THINK about that.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:48 | 3327983 riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

guessing you are a statist at heart? which is ok, I understand that I used to be one myself. 

the ponzi scheme  stuff is really tired. it makes no sense. maybe its a fraud or an uworkable solution but to claim there is some central person giving new people's money to other people with some fraudulent guarantee of return on investment is simply not true. I have never ever seen one person promoting bitcoin that claims any kind of return on investment and the people I see aren't or dont seem to be buying it so they can get a return although I am sure they are very happy with the return they have got. 

Words have a meaning try using them, it will make your life better.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:56 | 3328012 spooz
spooz's picture

The meaning of words is very subjective, or didn't you realize that?  My version of "ponzi" and yours might be completely different.  Assuming you understand my mapping of words to objects is ignorance.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:08 | 3328052 riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

that explains it all, thanks. why do you ever even talk to anyone?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:21 | 3328062 spooz
spooz's picture

I find it fun to play language game.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:58 | 3328309 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Then check out:  http://www.engrish.com

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:25 | 3327909 sitenine
sitenine's picture

BREAKING: bitcoin farted! Hear about it first on ZH!

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:30 | 3327920 negative rates
negative rates's picture

He who smelled it, delt it.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:32 | 3327928 riphowardkatz
riphowardkatz's picture

for those versed in bitcoin, trying to figure out downsides and was wondering is there a point where the blockchain gets so big that transactions take an enormous amount of time?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:37 | 3327944 Matt
Matt's picture

The mathematical difficulty of processing a block automatically adjusts so it always takes about 10 minutes. Blockchain length should not be a problem, as I understand it. The problem is that the older versions of the software can only process so many transactions in a block, so if there are too many transactions within a 10 minute period, there will be delays. How they sort this out with rolling back to older software then switching to newer versions, I'll wait and see.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:41 | 3327951 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

this is because of the enormity of small satoshidice playing with the blockchain, bigger transactions, say $15, go off fine.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:52 | 3328468 Matt
Matt's picture

As I understand it, priority for a transaction is based on:

1) the mathematical complexity of the transaction (number of addresses involved)

2) whether you chose to pay a transaction fee

3) how large the transaction fee you paid

The amount of BTC should not matter, just the above three factors. It is interesting that mining pools can choose whether to only process transactions with fees, how much the fee is, and whether to distribute the transaction fee payouts to miners or keep it for themselves.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:13 | 3328063 Pancho Villa
Pancho Villa's picture

If I understand correctly, all Bitcoin transactions are broadcast to every node in the system. So doesn't this mean that the government (or anyone else) could monitor every transaction simply by setting up a Bitcoin node?

Also, since each Bitcoin contains a record of all the transactions it was ever involved in, suppose that I spend a Bitcoin and someone later gets that Bitcoin via a later transaction, wouldn't they have a record of my previous transaction?

Would it be possible for a hacker to bring the system to a halt by broadcasting large numbers of bogus transactions?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:33 | 3328110 labestiol
labestiol's picture

Transactions are public, but ownership of address is mostly private (extremely difficult to prove). You can create as much address as you want (ideally one for every transaction). Have a look at blockchain.info if you want to look at transactions history.

As for broadcasting bogus transaction, the hacker would have to broadcast it to all the nodes to halt the network. Each "attacked" node would immediatly recognize bogus transaction and not broadcast it.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:36 | 3328127 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

The coin itself is nebulous.  It doesn't exist.  When "created" it is just a ledger entry on someone's wallet.  No coin has a serial number as you seem to be imagining it.  All transactions are recorded in the blockchain, which means wallet to wallet transfers of some amount of bitcoin is recorded.  While it would be possible to track how much goes in and out of one wallet, there is no easy way to identify who that wallet belongs to.  And you can have pretty much as many wallets as you want to have.  So it would not be hard to obfuscate who actually owned any given amount of bitcoins without much effort on the part of the wallet owner, even without resorting to using Tor or other means of IP obfuscation. 

A hacker cannot broadcast large numbers of bogus transactions.  There are no bogus transactions.  All these miners mining bitcoins are also verifying the integrity of each transaction made.  If the majority of them don't agree that a transaction happened, then it won't be added to the blockchain.  Thus, an attacker would need to control 51% of the computational power of the blockchain for an extended period to insert bogus transactions.  Currently, the network is hashing at 34 Terahashes/s.  There isn't a supercomputer in the world that can currently do half that.  There are specific machines coming online that can do a whole lot of hashing (and nothing else but bitcoin hashing) that could cause some concern, but the capital investment they've put into it would be counterproductive to them hacking the system.  It isn't like people wouldn't know it was happening, it would be fairly obvious.  The only thing that would really succeed in doing is taking down the system (and the faith in it). 

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:54 | 3328297 Pancho Villa
Pancho Villa's picture

What would happen if someone deliberately broadcast huge numbers of valid transactions as fast as his computer would allow? For example, repeatedly transferring a single bitcoin back and forth between a set of valid addresses? There must be some limit to the number of transactions that the system can process per second.

Secondly, since the peers broadcast their IP addresses to everyone, a hacker would know all of the peers at any one time and could send the valid transactions to every peer, perhaps using a network of bots.

Also since the IPs of all of the inputs to the Bitcoin network at any given time are known, a government would only need to monitor those IPs in order to attach an IP address to every transaction. So it easily track Bitcoin flows across IP addresses.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:06 | 3328330 labestiol
labestiol's picture

What would happen if someone deliberately broadcast huge numbers of valid transactions as fast as his computer would allow? For example, repeatedly transferring a single bitcoin back and forth between a set of valid addresses? There must be some limit to the number of transactions that the system can process per second.

Secondly, since the peers broadcast their IP addresses to everyone, a hacker would know all of the peers at any one time and could send the valid transactions to every peer, perhaps using a network of bots.

To do that they would have to pay a minimal fee for each transaction. Anyone doing that would run out of coin fast enough.

Also since the IPs of all of the inputs to the Bitcoin network at any given time are known, a government would only need to monitor those IPs in order to attach an IP address to every transaction. So it easily track Bitcoin flows across IP addresses.

People can use public website to broadcast their transaction. They can even broadcast them through the Tor network.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:13 | 3328348 Pancho Villa
Pancho Villa's picture

What is the fee per transaction?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:47 | 3328446 labestiol
labestiol's picture

In average, it's probably around 1 cents, or 0.0002BTC

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 12:56 | 3329852 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

The valid transaction spamming is basically what SatoshiDice does in a nutshell.  Lots of tiny transactions that do kind of clog up the network as they all have to be verified.  As the other person that replied to you said, there are ways around it.  Some mining group operators choose not to verify those transactions and leave it to other people.  Some require a transaction fee (though this isn't required) to process it.  Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what happens if people decide not to verify it.  I assume it would just not be added to the blockchain for a very long time until some number of mining clients actually verified the transaction. 

As is right now, most are completed within 10 minutes when a new block is added to the chain.  I'm sure there is plenty of technical discussion of it on the bitcointalk forums. 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:56 | 3328011 labestiol
labestiol's picture

It will happen if there is too much small transactions. If so, you'll have to pay a bigger fee to prioritize your transactions. 

 

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:14 | 3328066 jackinrichmond
jackinrichmond's picture

..then the value of the bicoins would go up.  

thats basically what just happened.  the bitcoin reward value had a (scheduled) reduction from $50 to $25 and the value of bicoins went up (to reflect the additional energy required to mine the coins).  

the system is self-correcting in that regard.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 19:41 | 3327955 Malachi Constant
Malachi Constant's picture

Simon Black is like Midas in reverse: every subject he touches turns to shit.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:14 | 3328065 Richard Head
Richard Head's picture

Bitcoin fanatics must be furious that Simon Black is now a Bitcoin advocate.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 21:05 | 3328189 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

In this installment, Simon tells how and where to hide our Bitcoins.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:36 | 3328128 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

I'm trying it out. How can you add some bitcoins to your account?

My account is 13C5zUPnxYpTV3oVCYxaMZ5asxnSMxxXas

Anyone care throwing a pittance to my account so I can play with it?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 20:44 | 3328149 labestiol
labestiol's picture

Looks like you already tried it ;)

But here it is : http://blockchain.info/address/13C5zUPnxYpTV3oVCYxaMZ5asxnSMxxXas

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:03 | 3328188 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

Thx. One can try, can't one ;) ^^

Edit: I still would like to know what the cheapest way is to get your hands onto bitcoins. I bought my first bitcoin from bitonic.nl for about 12 euros when the price was about 9 euros. Still a steal compared to the current price.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:54 | 3328479 labestiol
Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:28 | 3328384 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

BTW: What do you guys think about Max Keiser's $100,000/ BTC prediction? I think that's highly unlikely. Bitcoin will probably do nicely but if it even goes near that price there will be lots of Bitcoin clones trying to steal its thunder. Remember the software is open source and there are already several Bitcoin clones in existance.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:49 | 3328435 labestiol
labestiol's picture

First, even if there is several bitcoin clones, as long as they are just that - clones - the network effect will make people choose one and stick with it. Especially since it's about money, the incentives are stronger.

Second, pulling a number without proper argument is silly. You shouldn't trust it if there is no real rationalization behind it. But actually, Keiser is just relaying the figure annonced by Rick Falkvinge, the founder of swedish Pirate Party in his blog : http://falkvinge.net/2013/03/06/the-target-value-for-bitcoin-is-not-some-50-or-100-it-is-100000-to-1000000/

I do think that his arguments make sense, so we might see that price if bitcoin succeed. Anyway, I'll do fine even if it's orders of magnitude wrong.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 11:41 | 3329618 Matt
Matt's picture

I'm sure in 130 years one bitcoin could be worth 100,000 Kronor. 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 09:39 | 3329254 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

There are lots of clones, already - I count 7, just here: https://vircurex.com/

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:40 | 3328427 Bagbalm
Bagbalm's picture

I don't understand Bitcoin - who gets the Seigniorage?

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:50 | 3328460 labestiol
labestiol's picture

People auditing the transactions

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 22:59 | 3328498 Matt
Matt's picture

If you are talking about transaction fees, the mining pool operators usually keep them for themselves when their pool solves a block.

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 23:09 | 3328526 Cone of Uncertainty
Cone of Uncertainty's picture

Yayyyy, let's all masturbate over ClitCoin!!!!!!

Yipppeee!!!

Wed, 03/13/2013 - 23:59 | 3328629 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

It is said that "A wise man gets further with questions than answers".  I take it that <5% of the know-it-all critics are willing or able to attend the event?  "Money talks and bullshit walks"  and all that stuff? 

My hotel room is booked,  and I'm beaming down.  To convince myself one way or another, and so I can stop listening to all the hot air from the guys who are "All hat an no cattle".  The down arrows will tell me that there's a plenty of those.

Shall I give Jim Rogers your regards?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 00:45 | 3328731 AurorusBorealus
AurorusBorealus's picture

Ok... you have heard Simon's take on the situation in South America after visiting Argentina for a day.  I live in Argentina... here is my experience the past 3 days here...

I just finished hosting some visitors from the United States and they are flying out of Cordoba tomorrow.  I also just finished meeting with several attorneys and accountants here in Central Argentina, who represent most of the local business community. Now these people aren't international men of mystery, or trust-fund brats, but they all agree on several points.  There is a substantial amount of new construction, much of it privately financed with capital (not new government housing for government employees or with bank credit).

Land is cheap and plentiful and many people from Buenos Aires are moving into the center of the country.  Some industries are growing at a rather rapid clip: shoe manufacturing, for example, e-commerce, and many of the transportation businesses: especially the buslines.  Hardly the financial disaster that Simon describes... but good... I hope all the international jet-setters stay the hell out of here with their funny money fresh from Bernanke's printing press.

Nearly everything, with the exception of electronics, that one finds in the stores is produced in Argentina and should the international financial system collapse, I sure like Argentina's chances better than countries that depend heavily upon imports or exports.

Simon Black and many other doctrinaire types seem to want to have it both ways.  They believe that the international financial system is defunct and collapsing, but then they insist that a country, such as Argentina, that is trying to chart a course independent of this system is a fascist dictatorship.

The question is far more complicated than one of "freedom" as if it were a Yang worship word.  To open the borders of a country to the "free" exchange of currency by definition opens the country to dollar / euro based international debt financial system-- to hotflows of newly printed Bernanke dollars and Draghi Euros... to the export of Euro / U.S. and Japanese inflation.

Very few people in Argentina are international men of mystery like Simon Black or Multi-millionaire international investors.  I am terribly sorry that, the policies of Argentina restrict your ability to move your capital into and out of this country, buying all the land and everything else in this beautiful country.

I'll stay right here in Argentina, Simon, and take my chances.  We will see how Chile fairs with all of its freedom and all of its hot-flows of Bernanke bucks when the international financial system collapses.  

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 06:33 | 3329006 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

an interesting perspective.

but don't be an apologist for your government's oppresive policies and laws.

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 08:52 | 3329171 AurorusBorealus
AurorusBorealus's picture

I am not.  My previous posts on the subject present a more nuanced point-of-view.  I do not agree with many of the things the Kirchners have done.   For example, I strongly believe the government must spend less (free college with a stipend for everyone is too much, for example) and have fewer employees (there are simply an outrageous number of police in the country).  This is the only solution to the problem of inflation here.

However, let us not lose the forest for the trees.  Argentina had the option in 2001-2002 to go the Greek / Europe / U.S. route or to default... As one politician put it at the time, "We had the choice to save the banks or save the people... we chose to save the people."  The decision was made, and it was a bold decision, to cut ties with the international financial system and try to go it alone in Argentina with only limited ties to the international system.  The Kirchners could have reversed this course at any time and it is quite likely hot-flows of USD and Euros would have flowed into the country anew (because Argentina tends to have a romantic appeal to foreigners-- I know, because I fell for it).  This would have a created a short-term euphoria... a hot-money high, probably followed by another crash.  The Kirchners decided to continue following the harder road.

 We will all see someday soon whether this was the wise policy or no... Whatever one thinks of the decision to limit ties to the U.S. / international financial system, the decision was made with knowledge and forethought as to the possible consequences of both paths.  This was not simply a decision about whether to "oppress" people or not... it was a decision about whether or not to subject Argentina de nuevo to the vagaries of international-finance and dollar-based debt or try to keep this system at arms-length.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 03:21 | 3331773 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

i understand what you are saying.

however, whenever a group of individuals claiming to be the "government" tries to enforce some centrally planned notion of how the economy "ought" to be, that is oppression of the people.

let people decide for themselves what is money, and what is its value.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 04:19 | 3328914 Debugas
Debugas's picture

this is how hyperinflation happens - it is not a lengthy process of detoriation but a single instance political event

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 09:33 | 3329243 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Bitcoins are currently at 12 €, after toping at 34 - anyone care to comment? https://vircurex.com/welcome/index?base=BTC&alt=EUR

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 10:36 | 3329337 labestiol
labestiol's picture

It's just one exchange, and a very illiquid one. Crazy arbitrage opportunity if you're able to buy some at that price.

Have a look at this page to see all exchange, ordered by volume : http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

As I type, price in euro is 36.7€ on the most liquid exchange (mtGox)

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 13:13 | 3329917 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Back to "normal" again, I guess.

It all seems kinda sketchy - no id, no real location, nothing - if some commerce suddenly offered you gold at a fraction of price, what's the odds you'd get shafted?

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