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Because It Worked So Well For Stalin...

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Simon Black of Sovereign Man blog,

Five-year plans in the Land of the Free? Apparently it’s not that far off from reality.

Yesterday Senator Tom Harkin introduced S. 544, “a bill to require the President to develop a comprehensive national manufacturing strategy.”

In effect, Senator Harkin wants the President to centrally plan the economy. Never mind that the President has zero experience in business or manufacturing. But hey, this worked out so well for Stalinist Russia, it’s no wonder Mr. Harkin wants to copy that model.

Not to be outdone by Mr. Harkin’s long-sighted vision, President Obama is drawing up plans to turn over Americans’ financial data to the nation’s spy agencies. So now, on top of everyone else, law-abiding citizens in the Land of the Free can count on the CIA and NSA combing through their bank statements.

Of course, it’s all for your protection against men in caves who wish to do you harm.

This is the same reason they irradiate and/or sexually assault airline passengers. It’s why they have to be able to assassinate Americans on US soil by remote control plane. It’s why they’ve authorized military detention of US citizens. Etc.

When you step back and look at the big picture, it really makes one wonder – how big of a piano needs to be dropped on people’s heads before they notice what’s happening..?

I acknowledge that people have roots. I understand that folks can’t easily pick up and leave their jobs, friends, and family. I understand there’s a lot of inertia involved.

But if you see the writing on the wall, there’s so much you can do to protect yourself against this lunacy. Own precious metals, preferably stored overseas. Open a foreign bank account. Ship your retirement savings abroad. Travel a little bit. Know, in advance, where you would go if you finally hit your breaking point and needed to leave the country.

The trend is clear. Every single day the political elite gives us even more evidence that they’re working overtime to destroy the economy and what few remaining civil liberties still exist.

It’s a difficult truth to acknowledge given that most people have been brainwashed from a very early age in public schools to trust in their government. But placing any amount of confidence in this system utter folly. And dangerous.

There’s no need to panic; rather, it’s important to take measured, rational action. The above recommendations are not alarmist, they’re steps that make sense no matter what happens.

In almost any scenario, you won’t be worse off for having gold and silver stashed away overseas. You won’t be worse off for traveling abroad and finding a nice place you enjoy. You won’t be worse off for taking back control of your retirement savings.

Yet it the bottom falls out, you’ll be one of the few people left standing. Unless, of course, you’d rather wait for the next five-year plan to kick in.

 

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Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:37 | 3331139 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Fascism baby!!!  Now that's some "Hope and Change" - or so someone said once.

Maybe part of this 5 year plan should be a BUDGET!!  Who operates any organization with a large number of employees without a budget?

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:43 | 3331150 markmotive
markmotive's picture

Socialism for the rich. Capitalism for the rest.

American Psychosis...Chris Hedges

http://www.planbeconomics.com/2013/03/14/american-psychosis-written-by-c...

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:12 | 3331230 DJ Happy Ending
DJ Happy Ending's picture

"you won’t be worse off for having gold and silver stashed away overseas"

Can someone please explain this to me?

Simon mentions this in almost every post but I do not understand how it is beneficial to have physical stored thousands of miles away from where you live.

If the SHTF, how would you get to it?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:27 | 3331272 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

And where overseas can you really expect your possessions to be held inviolate? Even if you manage to get overseas to get to your holdings in person, what leverage do you have to actually get control of it? "So sorry Senor American, we have no record of that account. Have a buenos dias." If TSHTF here in the US, wouldn't half those storage places pretty much immediately go sifting through the possessions of US nationals to see what can be absconded with?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:47 | 3331327 Lore
Lore's picture

Maybe I'm wrong, but this comes essentially from the same bunch that has yet to pass a budget, yes? 

To draw clients away from a competitor, you promise superior service, yes? In finance, that means honoring contracts and respecting confidence, yes?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:11 | 3331381 pods
pods's picture

Contracts are honored until they are not.  When better to break a contract then when you cant exactly go to your department of state to complain that the money you hid has been stolen?

And of course you will be bound by any and all laws, statutes, and proclamantions of the jurisdiction of the locale which your holdings were last seen.  Suppose the good old US in it's infinite wisdom decides that your nation of choice has opened up an Al-CIA-Duh franchise and starts JDAMming all the locals?

Sorry, my holdings stay close.

pods

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 23:34 | 3331596 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

And this is the point - if you aren't spending, and they aren't spending, then someone needs to - and that should be the government.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 23:57 | 3331604 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

Why does 'spending' need to continue?  Other than to keep inflated prices high and higher?  Why not let the global market decide what your home is worth?  What bonds are worth? What precious commodities are worth?  Do we really need 'The State' to come in and destabilize everything?   Deflation is good.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:00 | 3331623 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

Right. I'm not spending, they are not spending, but government is. But where will the gov'ts spending end up? Of course we know. Where wil my spending and their spending end up, once it picks up? 

That is your goal. Gov't spends, Geithner prints and Ben drops relief aid from the chopper, all in an effort to stimulate the economy and to reduce unemployment to get the people spending. You can reduce the spending,printing and dropping, but how will you reduce the money in the supply? Won't that bring us right back where we were and quite probably several steps down? Such as down a hole?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:14 | 3331630 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Posted before, worth posting again...

.

The Russians told a familiar joke..."Under Capitalism, man exploits man while under Communism its the other way around."

= 'Heads they win, tails we lose.'

.

At the top tear (because its pretty sad) you always find the illuminati controlling the choices - of which they own/win on both.

.

And thats that.

.

Now what?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:15 | 3331636 whotookmyalias
whotookmyalias's picture

Lack of qualifications has never stopped Obama before.  I'm sure he will be able to come up with something very "reasonable" and "common sense".

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 02:55 | 3331761 Middle_Finger_Market
Middle_Finger_Market's picture

I read: Because it worked so well for satan.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 04:15 | 3331800 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Boris is cannot say bad of Stalin, because is never meet Stalin. But Boris is also not meet own grand parents, uncles, and cousins, either.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 05:45 | 3331830 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

stalin was a gay crackhead

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 05:57 | 3331842 negative rates
negative rates's picture

And to  think that we do all this, just to simply keep track of one guy and his money. Like we needed to add another straw to that unsustainable camels back.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:16 | 3331640 prains
prains's picture


Similar Articles You Might Enjoy:

Simon Goes to SimonGrad

Simon Goes to Cheapenzuela

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 04:17 | 3331802 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Q: How many is take Central Planner to screw incandescent bulb?

A: Just one, but is take 5 year to plan and execute.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 01:22 | 3331689 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

Capitalism is the unknown ideal. We don't have it. We never had it. The bankers and politicians have always interfered with the free market. The free market has its own way of policing morally hazardous conduct, but the politicians care about only one thing, and that is their agenda and their power is dependent on that agenda getting fulfilled. 

 

  Capitalism is a vehicle for prosperity. It is not immune from breakdown, but it's the best one available. The problem is not with the vehicle. The problem is the driver(s).

You can not junk the auto because we have hazardous/reckless drivers.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 06:12 | 3331839 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

"Capitalism" is a theoretical construct, employed by Karl Marx, who used the term to describe economic systems in which land and labor are subservient to the owners of "money" = liquid assets...as in gold, or currencies which purport to represent a store of 'wealth'* ... conflation of the terms 'capital' & capitalist with 'ownership of the means of production' only came about once the cartel of moneychangers who both sponsored Marx and saw to the wide distribution of his recondite** theories had consolidated their victory over both the landed noble and laboring classes...via a C19th putsch in which the emergent middle classes were enlisted to subscribe to the fiction of class mobility - the "useful idiots" of the later Leninist school of Marxism - and the concept of 'class interests' versus 'racio-cultural' interests was used to dupe successive generations of Euro-merikans into aiding & abetting their own marginalizaton via surreptitious support for the vicious racial hegemonism of the sionist moneypower.

As an 'ideal,' it was ideally suited for this shell game by which an emergent class of noveau riche rentiers and unproductive parasites could impose their collective will upon the polity of western peoples, and reconstruct the prevailing historical narrative by means of their equally dominant control of the 'education\media\judiicial\legislative' estates, all in turn. You don't have "it" and you will never have "it"...because 'it' is the cruel fiction of power redistributed according to merit amongst a people whose true class and cultural enemies have simply invented the term to make your own self-immolation in their cause a self-fulfilling narrative of how they are smarter and better and more blessed than thou...the dupe goy who confused the  true free enterprise, free market, entreprenurial instincts of our forbears with this hollow repetition of worn cabbalistic phrasing which you so proudly bring to our attention here.

*all our "Indo-European" terms for money & currency are root-based in the numeration of head of stock...cattle...the meaning of wealth for our forbears...whose grasp of the really real far exceeded our own degraded vision...and who roamed  as freemen***, the thunder of their hooved hordes striking terror into the swamp-bound camps of the moneychangers' Khazarian ancestors.

**as in neo-Hegelian...having the temerity to convince your audience of your powers of intellect by confusing them with witless verbiage!

***freemen...owners of their own 'means of production' = hoof, herd and haulberk!

I suggest you chew on that apiece. M'lord.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 07:54 | 3331904 Steve in Greensboro
Steve in Greensboro's picture

Capitalism is not an ideology.  Capitalism is what people do when government leaves them alone.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 08:15 | 3331936 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

 Steve...all "isms" are ideologic...and like your description, complicate affairs of astonishing simplicity, generally for nefarious purposes...

what people do when government leaves them alone doesn't require an ism to describe it...nor a 'capitalism' to do it under...

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 09:43 | 3332117 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

I dont chew on incoherent psychobabble. I chew on the mis-informed zero hedge pseudo intellectuals who think they know history, but what they know aint so.

 

Like I say to all you knee jerk reactionaries, who get their panties in a bunch when they just see my name at the top of a post, make sure you understand my post before you respond and make sure you understand your history and the facts before you respond.

 

Your interpretation of the facts are unfounded and mindboggling non sense. You should be a professor at Al-jazeera University. Your "history" revision is as farcicle as said university.

 

Leave the discussion of Marx to markets to the grown ups. There is no way to chew on your incomprehensible conspiritorial puke. Your mind is full of useless knowledge regarding your percieved stance on the freedom of markets. 

 

Now, would you please inform me of where you attained your vast learning of Soviet and communist history. I also would appreciate the names of the historians/scholars who gave you such a wide breadth of knowledge on those subjects as well as the historians/scholars who informed you of your unique understanding of markets. 

 

I will not be chewing on anything. Such vapid thoughts are merely empty calories.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 10:20 | 3332264 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Sorry dood...I dinna do  any [l]university...an chose to eschew all that to chomp on the classics of ye ol political economics....

Cantillons' Essai, Smiths' Wealth of Nations, in particular, hard goin, sometimes tough chewin...but indispensable to the enquiring mind... you seem, from your comments' tone, to be suffering some form of dyspepsia, intellectual or otherwise, and therefore may require a more epicurean diet...

I'm afraid I can be of little assistance in guiding you there, as I've not the patience for the lighter-weight pretenders in the field...perhaps I can offer you a straw M'Lord?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 13:28 | 3332764 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

You cited 'wealth of nations'?  Are you familiar how this book argues against your own free market position and how it was an inspiration for Von Mises? Are you also aware of its contradictory flaws? Now, it does have arguements for your stance, but after years of analysis, its contradictions/misinterpretations overule it as a guide to free market direction. Its only cogent stance is against bank nationalization, which we all agree upon, but the end which you choose to justify does not justify the means. 

 

 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:49 | 3331690 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Now Whitey finally learns how to properly defend him\herself...

the bolshie hebraics own your dna...they've studied and experimented on(Mengele and Co were just part of their racket!)live subjects of our race and kind, and have now the tools to control, confuse, and a little further on, eliminate the gullible goys amongst whom they live. "Science" now trumps firepower...It's about quarter hour to midnight, and nobody seems to see beyond going out with a bit of fireworks...

you will rout them out of your midst, and disarm them of their techno tools of mass western genocide, or die as dupes to their machinations.

http://youtu.be/FO71hcTJDbA  \Brecker Brothers - Funky Sea, Funky Dew\North Sea JazzFestival 1980...white boys get loose!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 10:28 | 3332127 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

What? 

 

I'll tell you what 'joyful'. Lets make a deal. If you continue to get just as many or more people to agree with you, then I will quit zero hedge! I am serious. I'll go back to teaching my students real history and doubling down on that effort to make sure I do not contribute to the endless production of conspiritorial nitwits that I routinely encounter on these sites.

 

 

I do not want to be engaged with this kind of tripe. You get at least just as many people to agree with you, then I'm outta here.

Hell. Even 3/4 agreement will be close enough for me. I'll check back in by Sunday evening to see the results and give my final response. Plus, argueing with all of about the truth has taken me away from my job that I love. I should focus my energy on my life long dream. This site has become a nightmare.

 

BTW. The posts that you see by me that are entered below are from much earlier. This is my final zero hedge post.

 

 

 

I know that you will get more then enough. AND to all you lame brained nitwits, I say -

 

                         GOOD RIDDANCE!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 10:30 | 3332311 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

You've worked yourself into a terrible state M'Lord...

now take your finger offa the trigger, take the gun away from your temple, and place it gently down...upon the table.

Though I may have little use for your thoughts, and even less for your style of stating them, what matters most to me is that you have the freedom to express them here...and I to agree or disagree

I do hope you will be feeling better.

 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 11:20 | 3332420 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

You are partially correct. I will have a gun to my head if I spend any more time on this site dealing with the likes of you. 

 

I update my original offer. I you get a total of 5 people who agree with you, I will leave for good!

I mistakenly joined this site. I did not do the thorough research to see how many misinformed people are out here. I now realize it is called zero hedge for a reason, and that because it has so many zeros.

Now, I do llove free speech, but I do not engage in speech with the conspiritorial nitwits all over this site. I'll put it as George Washington rightly surmised;

 

  "It is better for a man to be completely alone, than be in the company of fools."

 

I am not alone nor a fool. I know your a fool, and sadly I believe you are quite alone. That is why you come to this site. Because you can be with like-minded troglodytes. 

 

Now as I stated before you mindless miscreant, give me the historical and scholarly references for your wasted intellect!

 

I wont be waiting for your references, because I know and you know there are no valid references for your mindless drivel.

Remember. You dont always have to be a mindless, misinformed ignorant fool. Well, on second thought, that is where this site comes in. You enjoy the company of these fools and therefore there will be no change.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 13:14 | 3332502 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

Oh look! You have recieved more then the total of 5 up votes. Congratulations! You are the winner.

 

This is Lord of Finance saying good bye from sunny America! So long ZERO hedge. Your mission will never materialize because it has no philosophical cornerstone. AND, as we all should know, a foundation built on weak/shaky ground will eventually succumb to the multitude of various elements. This site is just like the economy that you quite justifiably lament over and over again; YOUR foundation is also built on sand.

 

Speaking of sand;

The sands of time for your influence on these forces is running out.

 

Speaking of over; I finally say, Over, and out!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(the posts below that were written by Lord of Finance, were written many, many hours before said final post)

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 09:25 | 3332079 SamAdams
SamAdams's picture

I'm afraid people are uncomfortable with the term Illuminati.  As such, you may use the alternate "Bolshevik".  It is more accurate than "Zionist".  Israel is just part of a bigger plan of universal Communism. 

Of course at a lower level, your USA has made contigency plans in case of social strife due to economic turmoil.  At the higher level, this was put into motion years ago.  The goymasons and their ancestoral societies have been responsible for preserving the nature of politics and kingship since recorded history. 

The Bible is not literally accurate.  If it were, do you think the kings and priests would allow you the knowledge of such powerful ideology?  Again, the 3 scams are:  Creation of Money, War and Religion...

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 01:54 | 3331644 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

C'mon Paul Krugman. You may be eating well of the finest foods and drinking the finest scotch, but these ideas of "yours" have got granny eating alpo for pete's sake!    :D

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:11 | 3331632 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Just write - depressions are good - and wish for problems, so the rich can buy up assets for pennies on the dollar while the poor starve.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:15 | 3331639 whotookmyalias
whotookmyalias's picture

I upped you not for being sarcastic, but because that the is most honest thing I've seen you write.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:45 | 3331686 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

My comment was in reply to an above statement wishing for deflation; I am trying to prevent a furthering depression.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 03:37 | 3331785 geotrader
geotrader's picture

By uttering nonsense?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 09:53 | 3332144 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

uttering nonsense was 'Joyfuls' "whitey" response.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 03:46 | 3331787 e-recep
e-recep's picture

yeah right.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 03:51 | 3331791 PubliusTacitus
PubliusTacitus's picture

Awesome, so you apparently can't use the reply button properly, either.

 

Good to know.  Cheers.

 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 10:09 | 3332191 viahj
viahj's picture

maybe Tyler can rename the reply link to say "Print"

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:26 | 3331656 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

This inflationary recession has the top 1% buying up assets, such as real estate for pennies on the dollar, which keeps prices from falling to where they should be. 

And the poor are starving on food stamps. And they can't drive to work because they can't afford the price of gas.

 

And as said before:

 

These price inclines do not hurt you. You must still be eating very well and unwinding with the finest Scotch, but granny is eating alpo!     

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:49 | 3331688 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

How do you starve on food stamps? Most eat better than the working schmucks

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 01:13 | 3331695 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

If life is so good for food stamp nation, then why don't you join them?

 

Of course that was not your point, but . . .

 

    My point is, the majority of food stamp recipients are below the poverty level. Which is at levels not seen since the great depression. In order to be on the stamps, the overwhelming majority are in desperation. 

 

 For some reason I can not edit the post so this is more of a clarification.

Sun, 03/17/2013 - 21:55 | 3340672 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

they don't let you edit once someone replies so people can't revise arguments yadda yadda

without food stamps we would see the effects of this depression but they'll keep that flowing till the end.. when's the end?  never really since there is no cap on stealing money from the future to line the wal-mart profits of today via food stamps

people as a whole need to stop going into debt... then they can have the courage to take back their local politics.. from there go higher until the federal government gets cornered for the theives they are...  but you know how easily the masses are hooked on thier vices and tap out all credit

pathetic

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:10 | 3331631 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Dr. K, I'd agree only if your premise is to "Keep the FRB system going".  W/o the VoM, we downshift to a less complex society, with less need for clerical/office/desk jobs and more hands-on jobs.  No?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 02:29 | 3331676 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

'May I have your attention please? May I have your attention please?

Are you the real Paul Krugman? We gonna have a problem here . . .'

 

'Are you the real Paul Krugman, yes the real Paul Krugman?

 

Or are you just an imitating 'bluffman'

 

So won't the real Paul Krugman just please stand up!

 

Please STAND UP!  PLEASE STAND UP!?'

 

OK. How about this. Next time you go on Charlie Rose can you give us a sign? Maybe at the end of the program, just give a shout out to all your new friends at Zero Hedge!  Just a sign, man. Give us a sign.

 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 01:06 | 3331707 bunnyswanson
bunnyswanson's picture

Or the banks should begin lending.  Small business owners await.  Friendly terms, under the circumstances, could be the spark needed to ignite private enterprise.  Made in America will be needed of the dollar fails to compete with other currencies during times of shortages of essentials (food, medicine, material goods).  that is, if one hopes the US economy recovers.  It's been speculated that destroying same is the goal. 

Banks lending would put cash on Main Street as new businesses hired, husbands brought home paychecks and their wives resumed living normally, not in one extreme fashion or the other.  The money has to come from somewhere and the banks have all the money.  It just makes good sense.

There is something to be said for stability when you have a sure thing.  A few regulations is all it would take.  And perhaps restructuring the system from top to bottom, weeding out the cronyism and inept, finding and rewarding those elected offiicials, proven to have characters of substance and unshakeable loyalty to keeping the derelicts at the fringe of every industry from making their way to the top,

and leaders whose past have reflected a high moral standard to provide compelling leadership, introduce protectionism for a decade while the US and her troops recuperate from the beating they've taken since the 9-11 terrorist attack that wasn't.

and voila' ... tax revenue ... it's the circle of life.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 13:25 | 3331737 Lord Of Finance
Lord Of Finance's picture

What you have written is mostly correct, but the banks will not lend because the fed has got them making money on low interest speculations. The fed wants them preoccupied with these activities. The result of lending to you and me would be real massive inflation in the core number. They want to avoid that.

 

  Their stated goal is to lower unemployment,(how this QE will precisely do this is another matter that is not even clear at the highest level) and then they will want the banks to lend to the newly employed, spend thrift consumer. 'Spend thrift', is another way of saying the fed wants Joan and John Q Public to whip out the credit cards once they find multiple part time jobs. Then, the banks will commence said lending. I say, either way, it will commence said massive inflation

 

Yes, what you stated previously about lending, and spending and tax revenue, should be the circle of economic life, but unfortunately for the fed, and the Krugmeister, the circle of life is a money printer.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 01:23 | 3331719 petolo
petolo's picture

Government spending with who's money Doc ? Who is getting richer by it other than the "i'm richer than you" boys. You are an  odious little half-wit . Now go take a long walk on a short rooftop.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:31 | 3331423 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

if you're writing said contract and expecting it to be upheld...i would think so. That's why New York State was historically VERY discerning in it's choices of judges "and said rulings." if you ditch the rule of law in your public life..."next stop Washington DC." good luck getting "a bailout of the kind you need" on that front. and i would imagine..."it would have to be quite large" to have meaning. the current one amounts to trillions...yet still it doesn't seem to be "of the right kind." no news there of course. will say this "Russians cried when Stalin died." ....hmmmm. imagine that. let me say that again: "they cried when Stalin died." wow. go figure. here's the greatest industrial policy ever made in world history: http://corporate.ford.com/news-center/press-releases-detail/677-5-dollar...
my understanding of Henry Ford is that he in fact had a FAR more radical vision of making cars however...namely "distributed manufacturing" in which every garage in the USA (we have a couple hundred million of them now) would make a part for "their car." interestingly with the sudden arrival of 3d printing technology and the information age this is VERY much do-able. needless to say "if you have a hand in the making of your car the potential demand increases by an order of magnitude." you also have an interest in the QUALITY of that vehicle as well. http://www.academia.edu/2820413/Layered_Approach_to_distributed_Manufact...
this thing is the real deal folks. the days of "purely centralized and hieerarchical" died when GM went under and had to be bailed out. This is how electronics is currently made...and has been made for some time. Here's an interesting company that's been doing this for some time: http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/flex?source=search_general&s=flex
fascinating company who's stock price has moved solidly higher since Obama's re-elect. simply put we don't need the resources we once needed to have in order to make things anymore. with little that is in fact proprietary anymore in theory "anything can be made." here's a good example of what has value in "disabledvet's world": http://ryanbabenzien.tumblr.com/post/29139832945/proprietary-rope-weave-... of course i would disagree as to "any fool will mind it"--i would argue it takes and EXCEPTIONAL fool to "mind your proprietary weave." here's the one to create "chain mail"--by definition a square and a solid: http://www.drakyl.com/hybrid.php

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:00 | 3331626 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

The basis of your argument icanhasbailout, seems to be that, while you can be 'sure' of your stuff getting stolen abroad, there's a pretty good chance that no such pilfering can take place inside the CampFema zone...

somwhow the 'logic' of that premise eludes me - sounds more like 'hope' for a 'change' of heart on the part of the very 'people' whose motives and methods to defraud you of, not just your 'stuff,' but your bottom line civil liberties, and even freedom of movement, SB has laid out here. You wanna believe. In the face of the facts.

Indeed, this be Simon's best piece by far...he lays out the simple facts...Big Brother inching closer everyday...notes the incredible capacity of the neo-Gulag 'pre-registrants' to creatively ignore the obvious(the piano reference), and then simple states that you 'wouldn't be any worse off' to have an actionable plan for living outside it's greasy grasp...no hyperbole, no Chilean hacienda tour or seminar plug. Hyberbole instead, is the stock in trade in this case of the "there's no rule of law outside the USA" crew, who instinctively retreat into a time warp that takes them down memory lane, to a kinder, gentler kind of Merika than what actually exists in the present...and wipes their survival instincts clean offa the map.

That's a perfect win for the 'FIVE YEAR PLAN' fellows; no hopping lobsters, no roadrunners...just a bunch of milling cattle waiting for the prod. Simon Blacks' way ahead of you on this one...the Bolshie Hebraics have been bringing their long term plans to a boil in every corner of this earth...they did Russia early on, then were to be found in China, the rest of Asia, and South America....now it's your 'turn'... whether you wish to know it or not. "Absconding" is a phenomena built into the BillyAyres\Dorhnn\Alinsky\Obummer vision of your future...and they got the juice! http://mailstar.net/ginsberg.html

The risk to liberty and property exists everywhere you go...or don't go...that's a given...but there are places, right now, with a respect for both property and civil liberties that exceed those left in Merika...which ain't sayin a whole lot anymore...people need to be able to learn more about the alternative to stayin home until their number in the BIG CIRCLE K dude ranch and abbatoir comes up. Simon, for all his foibles addresses that need masterfully here.

Let a thousand choices bloom!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 02:23 | 3331754 The_Dude
The_Dude's picture

Where's Banzai??....I need a pic of Obama superimposed on the baby...and I am getting T-shirts made for everyone!!

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:53 | 3331340 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Your gold and silver is only as safe as the weapons you have to defend it. How are you going to do that overseas.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:14 | 3331390 pods
pods's picture

Well I am a pretty good shot.  Lets see, windage, elevation, dodge a GPS satellite or two...............

pods

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 23:47 | 3331615 caconhma
caconhma's picture

Stalin had 5-year plans.

Hitler had 4-year plans.

Both hated the Jewish Banking Mafia.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:33 | 3331670 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Both worked for the Jewish Banking Mafia...

sorry, had to fix that for ya!

Outside the cartoon\comicbook versions of history available to the lost boyz of the western gulags, a very different narrative exists.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:36 | 3331675 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Yes, and we are on a socio-fascist path that rewards the Jewish-Mormon-(insert relgion here)-Blue Blood-Atheist mammon lusters which took the past 12 years and 9.655+ of our young Women and Men dead for the sake of the Military/Industrial complex.

If you watched the opening of the 2008 Bejing Olympics you know that China is on war footing, and as soon as they have enough consumption and factories in South America and Africa will challenge the West in war.

The current U.S. Kleptoligarchy cares not, they are milking the middle class so they can make their money now and rule in the future; more war, fewer rights, a new kind of empire based upon perceptions, propaganda, and bread and circuses.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:18 | 3331645 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

By having a close network of people (family, tribe) overseas.  E.g. many Russian or European Jews "got out of Dodge" and left for America, with gold or diamonds on their person.  The cash, silver or jewelry was for bribes, the gold & diamonds for obvious wealth transfer.  Anyone can do the same.  But, if all you got is guns & ammo, then they won't have much market value outside the US.  As for language skills, do what other immigrants did:  LEARN. 

It is noteworthy that many immigrants who came here, made a conscious decision for the sake of their kids, not for themselves;  although they knew that they'd have to start from scratch, they knew that their kids would have a better future.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:23 | 3331654 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Your gold and silver will be the weighty millstones which allow the bad guys to take up your trail and track you down to that final RubyRidge scenario some of y'all seem to get off on here...

the precious metals are the means by which to get outta Dodge and find a new nest...not part of a troika of "true grit"-style theatrical props(guns, gold,&government agents)by which you get to go out in a blaze of gory glory...

too much of the last redoubt rhetoric we get whenever the subject of mobililty in the face of an attack by the enemy in overwhelming depth comes up is smelling more and more like the master plan by which the kosher kriminals planning your endless adventure in Femaville get the white brothers to bottle themselves up in small enclaves of patently not secure or safe 'refuges' to wait docilely for the arrival of Dronemaster Barry O and his armored columns...

not the brightest tactical move, patriots. Never defend a fixed perimeter in cases of enemy superiority of weapons and numbers, and no countervailing support from outside the enclave.

Lessions from the Pennisula, circa 1809-15...the superior General retreats in good order with his assets intact, to fight another day on the ground of his own choosing, at the time he judges the opponent overconfident of victory.

 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 03:25 | 3331775 The Heart
The Heart's picture

"Simon mentions this in almost every post but I do not understand how it is beneficial to have physical stored thousands of miles away from where you live."

Can you say gold confiscation after registration?

http://dailybail.com/home/update-new-bill-requires-gold-silver-registrat...

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:31 | 3331286 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

HARKIN, youre going to need a hell of a lot more than that.

 

Come on pussy, show us what you got.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:48 | 3331450 booboo
booboo's picture

Harkin has been fucking up the country for over 30 years but Iowa farmers much like the rest of the country's farmers have been ruined by farm welfare but they expect it and Harkin no doubt brings home the bacon for the the family farm like Cargill and Archer Daniels Midland and the seed corn monopoly...did I say family farm, I mean to say oligarch farms.

Fuck you Harkin

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:26 | 3331502 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

harkin is a commie prick. hope he dies soon

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:33 | 3331671 moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

Support alternative economist Steve Keen's Minsky software development on kick starter http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2123355930/minsky-reforming-economic...

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:00 | 3331353 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

Ask me about GOSPLAN.

GOSPLAN ... THE ORIGINAL FIVE YEAR PLAN OF THE USSR.

Comrade President Obugger has all the answers.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:25 | 3331655 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

markmotive:  "Socialism for the rich. Capitalism for the rest."

I believe that this combo has the name of Feudalism:  Trickle-up wealth for the rich, and a free-(for-all)-market for the rest.  It worked for centuries, and Feudalism 2.0 is in the works, being beta-tested on us right now.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:53 | 3331181 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

Perestroyka, baby! Planning for 5 years is not a problem. Heck, my company has been doing it forever. The problem is if the government does the planning.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:45 | 3331279 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

Star Trek also did it:

Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before.

Of course the filthy capitalists changed it to "continuing mission" when TNG came around.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:59 | 3331349 Lore
Lore's picture

That's an interesting nerdpoint. Roddenberry's economics always seemed naive. The Enterprise delivered goods on various occasions, and we heard about trade agreements, but there was no clear indication as to monetary policy.  Kirk never flashed anything like a wad of bills. Did they finally shake off debt-based central banking?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Money

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:09 | 3331376 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

In TNG they had replicators. Picard never paid for his tea. There was an episode in TNG when they found a 20th century Wall Street tycoon who was frozen after death and put in a space capsule and when he was revived he was shocked that all his $$$ were worthless.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:28 | 3331418 tmosley
tmosley's picture

On DS9, Cisco's boy had to use commie propaganda on Nall (I think that was the young Ferengi's name) to get him to buy some sports memorabilia for his father, because he himself was a human and was apparently not ALLOWED to possess money.

Even in a Eudamonic society with an economy of plenty, there will always be rare things.  Roddy's idea that there would be no money was poorly thought out.  Money in the future will be like having money on the internet for internet based goods.  It will be hard to price, as most things are free, and when you have it, it will get you a LOT (think about buying gold on any MMORPG).

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:15 | 3331486 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

I thought latinum was a liquid heavy heavy metal that was so rare it served as money instead of gold which was then common. Holy moly am I a nerd. I figured latinum was an artificial element in one of those islands of stability off the elemental chart.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:39 | 3331526 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the one" -Spock

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:24 | 3331498 cents gradeschool
cents gradeschool's picture

...but in VOY when their naivete got them stuck in the Delta quadrant, without the means to get home, they began replicator rations. " Replicator rations were an energy-conservation policy instituted on the USS Voyager, limiting the usage of the ship's replicators for each crewmember. Shortly after the use of replicator rations was implemented, Captain Janeway attempted to use one of hers to replicate some coffee, but was dissuaded by Neelix, who advised her to set an example for the crew by using restraint."

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Replicator_ration

Sounds familiar.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:56 | 3331460 Matt
Matt's picture

Star Trek, they had scarcity with the Dilithium Crystals, which powered all the starships. In Star Trek IV they went back to the 1980s, and figured out that old fission reactors could be used to replenish Dilithium Crystals. From that point on, they had unlimited resources so they stopped having money and everyone lived in Utopia. The only thing they couldn't replicate was Latinum, so "inferior" cultures like the Ferengi hoarded gold-pressed latinum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zFTO8mOLTk

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:18 | 3331490 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

I've been bested in nerdiness. Hail to the victor.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:01 | 3331625 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

"Of all the souls I have encountered in my travels, his was the most... shitty."

—excerpt from Bernanke's future eulogy

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 03:57 | 3331793 PubliusTacitus
PubliusTacitus's picture

"Excrementally poor" would be the Queen's preference.

 

As in "Her Majesty's Economic Dept. refrains from judging Krugman's work, on the basis of the stench"

 

&c.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:35 | 3331673 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Allow me to help out here... I have offered Dr. Krugman the idea for his next Meistwerk in economics some weeks ago, when I suggested that he leverage our model of using energy (dilitium chrystals) and Latinum (our PM) as inspiration for the CB's.  By analogy, they can re-anchor their confetti currency to Petro+PM Dollars. 

The 'problem' with that model is, that those used to a life of leisure and entitlement (fiat-investors having others working for them) is difficult to uphold in a real-currency system that does not use FRB or fiat/confetti currency.  So this would be a non-started for him and his masters.

Sun, 03/17/2013 - 01:40 | 3337326 Lore
Lore's picture

Carbon tax --> Carbon currency under a Power Standard.  Agenda 21 is pure evil.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 02:10 | 3331746 ironymonger
ironymonger's picture

Are you trying to suggest that by and large sci-fi writers don't have a grasp of economics?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 14:18 | 3333085 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Um, they understood that the Take a Wish program would not be profitable or popular.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 04:15 | 3331799 Canaduh
Canaduh's picture

In the Trouble With Tribbles episode, didnt the bartender mention some form of currency while haggling with the travelling salesman??

Kirk never flashed anything like a wad of bills. Did they finally shake off debt-based central banking?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:43 | 3331435 MoneyChasingReturns
MoneyChasingReturns's picture

Why would anyone want to manufacture most things in this day and age? The lowest cost highest quality manufacturer is better at it then you. Join them and develop products and services around them. You dont make money sewing jeans in San Francisco. Instead you make money developing a global brand and selling to millions of consumers in the global economy. The manufacturer makes $1 you make $23.60. Rich countries understand this. You cant build a better basic car than a Indian company, but you can build an amazing Ferrari where you make the same profit as 1,000 small cars on just one sale. Much lower risk!

I resell a $5000 computer server made from $4700 in parts for $50,000. This is profit, not the $300 some entrepreneur in China earned. Now let me live in Monaco and not in a factory town in Ohio.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:16 | 3331487 Not My Real Name
Not My Real Name's picture

Yes, Simon's "store your gold overseas" makes no sense whatsoever. The only person who I'd ever trust to protect MY stash of precious metals is ME.

Then again, after losing mine in that terrible boating accident last year, I guess it's all moot.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 01:31 | 3331725 petolo
petolo's picture

Do you mean in the moat .? Good idea.

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:35 | 3331142 Freedumb
Freedumb's picture

Comprehensive national manufacturing strategy: Keep printin'

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:29 | 3331281 max2205
max2205's picture

Are we ever going to go back to talk about the markets?

Oil pm goog amzn nflx?

Miss those days

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:04 | 3331358 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

When there are markets to talk about we can go back to it.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:36 | 3331145 mjorden
mjorden's picture

China has a 5-year plan also, 12th '5-year' plan is what we are on now ...

 

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2010-10/27/content_11463985.htm

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:50 | 3331333 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

China has a 5-year plan to buy shitloads of gold and make RMB the new WRC. The Bernank and Super Mario have a 5-year plan to debase USD and EUR to 0.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:03 | 3331472 Matt
Matt's picture

Build empty cities in the middle of no where that sit empty while half the people live in shacks because they only make $2 per day and cannot afford a $250,000 condo. Build pressurized trains to go to Tibet. Seems like they are not any more efficient at allocating resources, they just happen to have more to squander then most previous central planners.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 02:00 | 3331742 bunnyswanson
bunnyswanson's picture

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339536/Ghost-towns-China-Satellite-images-cities-lying-completely-deserted.html

Satellite images of ghost cities. (soon to be "bustling" )

All nations but a couple joined UN's Agenda 21.  Russia:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/russia-plans-to-move-its-people-to-big-towns-20101117-17xp9.html

MOSCOW: The Kremlin is considering the biggest geographical redistribution of its population since Joseph Stalin's forced deportations of entire nationalities in the 1940s.

Under the plans, which were leaked to the daily Vedomosti newspaper, most of Russia's 141 million population would be concentrated in just 20 urban centres.

At present they are spread sparsely over one-fifth of the Earth's surface.

About 90 per cent of Russia's towns are relatively small, with populations of 100,000 people or less, many of them in remote locations.

Advertisement

The leaked plan said such places had ''no future'' and were not worth developing. Instead, it proposed relocating people to 20 giant urban centres, where Russia's main natural resources such as oil and gas were located.

Unlike in Stalin's day, when people were forced to move at gunpoint on the often spurious grounds that they were ''enemies of the people'' or Nazi collaborators, relocating would be optional and encouraged on economic grounds.

Much of rural Russia is dying as young people move to towns and cities, and entire Soviet-era settlements which were built around just one or two factories are no longer economically viable.

''There is no need to fight against the current and we need to develop big cities and urban centres,'' the plan said, according to the newspaper.

Analysts said the plan, which would roll back the Soviet idea of urbanising the entire country, is likely to be heavily touted by the President, Dmitry Medvedev, as part of his agenda to modernise Russia.

''Changing the map of the country is a necessary but not simple task which needs to be done very carefully as any overreaction could lead to a fight for urban resources,'' a government official was quoted as saying.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/russia-plans-to-move-its-people-to-big-towns-20101117-17xp9.html#ixzz2NaKlRdrC

America:

What is not sustainable?

Ski runs, grazing of livestock, plowing of soil, building fences, industry, single family homes, paves and tarred roads, logging activities, dams and reservoirs, power line construction, and economic systems that fail to set proper value on the environment.” UN’s Biodiversity Assessment Report.

http://americanpolicy.org/2011/03/31/agenda-21-in-one-easy-lesson/

Canada

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/51160

Mao Tse Tung’s Great Leap Forward (1959-1961) plan to strip landowners of property, organize citizens into communes, centrally control agriculture, and increase industry (steel, iron, massive building projects) resulted in the death of 40 million people from starvation.

President Obama’s Rural Council executive order passed in 2011 encourages “public-private partnerships,” “helps rural communities connect regionally to collaborate,” “expands markets for agriculture,” and “increases renewable energy and conservation.”

National Heritage Area Act of 2012, sponsored by Rep. Charles Dent (R-PA15) is the proposed HR 4099 that would grant open-ended powers to local management bodies, empowering them to regulate human activities inside the heritage area, with the potential to affect the lives of millions of Americans without public debate. The management body would operate in the best interest of their organization, disregarding the interests of the property owners in the heritage area.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:21 | 3331650 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Not to worry... the NWO crowd has a 50 year plan, even if you or your politician don't.  Just pay your taxes, follow the dotted line and they will take care of the rest.  /s

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:39 | 3331149 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

Let's see. We could buy guns and bullets (look how well that worked for Chris Dorner) or organize politically (the only thing they fear).

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:47 | 3331169 cossack55
cossack55's picture

1789 French-style "polictics" is the only thing they fear.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:58 | 3331195 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

them 'theys' dont fear that

you dont know who they are, how are you gonna guillotine 'em?

 

all you can get your hands on will be a series of stooges

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:35 | 3331297 Manthong
Manthong's picture

It's a start.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:05 | 3331361 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

I'd suspect with the right motivation the stooges would disclose the appropriate information.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:50 | 3331453 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

best part is the government has provided the training to do that...

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:39 | 3331523 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yeah, johnQpublic, the "they" back then took over the French Revolution, and turned it into a reign of terror, ending with a dictator.

Of course, these days, violent revolution is as insane as world war with atomic bombs. Any one of "them" with access to weapons of mass destruction has practical "sovereign immunity," since "they" can realistically threaten to kill millions, if you try to kill "them."

We are so, so, so screwed, far beyond anything the French people were back before that revolution!

I do not believe anybody who indulges in fantasies of violence against the ruling classes has thought the postmodernizing problems through! There is nothing in human history to compared to weapons becoming trillions of times more powerful, as well as it actually being practically possible to use trillions of times more information. There should be a radical paradigm shift in the ideas about how to operate death controls, and what those mean. However, what will most probably happen is that we will continue to muddle through madness, on the path of least morality.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 03:48 | 3331789 e-recep
e-recep's picture

better than nothing.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:53 | 3331342 NoClueSneaker
NoClueSneaker's picture

Sherrifs of Utah and 1000 Green Berets already announced what kind of  negotiations will be held on  new piece of  legislative concerning wapons.

( Thx to poster ).

 

 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 08:26 | 3331960 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Yeah because the French Revolution was just an overwhelmingly success with such profoundly peaceful and bountiful results for the French citizenry.  They also ended up back in the exact same place nearly 25 years after Napoleon was defeated and the European victors reinstalled a monarchy-led system in France after the Congress of Vienna.

 

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:05 | 3331217 CH1
CH1's picture

Or, you could just drop out of their system and start doing something new.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:57 | 3331264 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Do you know who you're dealing with here? Hardcore power hungry scum who torture, murder, rob blind and enslave people every day without losing one second of sleep. The only thing they understand is force.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:21 | 3331649 bunnyswanson
bunnyswanson's picture

It would be the green light for the dark side of everyone to surface, to become uninhibitated, carrying out fantansies in a bigot-backed attempt to get private justice, insanity would be the background. 

 There is a reason men have died trying to create an honest society.  Weak and beautiful people are cursed in their world, bait, hunted.  Chewed up and spit out lke their toothpick from their martini olive and with as much consideration.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:20 | 3331494 american eyedol
american eyedol's picture

do you think we will have christmas next year?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:39 | 3331152 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

How can people resist when most of them believe the system is all good? That's nothing is going wrong? That the government only does that to ``protect you against the evil muslim terrorists``??

Fact is, most people on earth are fucking idiots, including Americans. That's why there have been thousands of dictators in history. Because people are cowards and stupid.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:39 | 3331153 El
El's picture

Well, I would but I don't fly anymore because I prefer to have some say in who molests me. Even if I did fly, I'd be afraid to leave the country because odds are I'd find myself stuck in Timbuktoo because suddenly it was discovered I was on the "no fly" list because of my internet activist type posts. Then I'd have to ride a donkey to the nearest body of water so I could take a boat to Mexico. Once there,  odds are I might get shot by the guns sent there by Eric Holder. On the off chance I did make it all the way back to the border, I would again have to deal with being molested by total strangers who might well seize all of my electronic equipment and delete my family photos.

I think I'll just stay home after all.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:56 | 3331346 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Actually in my recent travels to Fiji, new Zealand and Australia the most frightening airport was in the USA with its non stop streaming video of DHS running into buildings with assault rifles and patrolling the border to "protect"us. We stood in customs for an hour watching the stupid thing and though it probably was meant to foster feelings of security,that was the last thing on my mind.

Miffed:-)

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:58 | 3331348 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

I for one, would rather take my chances with the neighbors and friends I know.

And the soil I've been building won't transport very easily.

I think it is too late for me to try to ingratiate strangers without even knowing their language.

Hell, I've even written off most of the USA as a desirable place to resettle to.

No, whatever it is, it's going to be right here.

They might kill me, but they won't run me off.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:40 | 3331154 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

This is just too sureal.  I had to pinch my self, and then I poured a whiskey.  We have gone off the cliff, we just haven't made it to that "sudden stop" at the bottom when "reality sets in".

 

I wonder just how long we can stay in the air .... on the way down to the pavement?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:42 | 3331155 honestann
honestann's picture

A rational 5 year plan for humans.

Learn to distinguish real from fiction.

predators DBA government
predators DBA corporations
predators DBA [central] banks

The predators are real.  All organizations are fictions.  This should be simple enough for sentient beings to understand.  To bad so few humans know what is real and what is not.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:25 | 3331263 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

ann, curious as to what you think of the OPPT...

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:54 | 3331343 Iocosus
Iocosus's picture

I have read much about this? What do you think? Is it that simple?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:26 | 3331400 honestann
honestann's picture

I had never heard of OPPT before.  Within the first few paragraphs of the following web-site (http://wakeup-world.com/oppt-in) is the following statement:

... they decided that that the only solution was to terminate the entire system through UCC filings.

I assume "UCC" means "uniform commercial code".

While I have no doubt that many people involved in such approaches have good motivations, I am confident that any approach that invokes ANY fiction or ANY authority is ultimately doomed.

Once you accept ANY fiction, you are on very weak grounds to refuse ANY aspect of that fiction, including what might be invented later.  Once you accept ANY authority, you are stuck accepting any and every abuse that so-called authority deems appropriate.

I don't understand why humans don't understand that there ARE no authorities, that there CANNOT BE any authorities.

Look.  You are a human, and you came to exist by being born.  These so-called authorities are humans, and they came to exist by being born.  By the mere symmetry of this observation we can clearly see that you and they have no basis to claim authority over the other.  I suppose you could both claim authority (that is, utter the words) that you have authority over the other, but anyone with the intelligence of a 3 year old (if not 2 year old) can see the inherent irrationality of such claims.  They are no different than "I dare you... I double dare you... I double double dare you... I double double double dare you... and so forth", ad infinitum.

Until humans STOP being STUPID and fundamentally and clinically INSANE, there is no hope for humans.  The fictions involve blatant, fundamental self-contradiction, and everything that follows necessarily involves endless contradictions and arbitrary nonsense.

The only way to solve these kinds of problems is to get real, and the only way to do that is to get honest.  Most importantly, you must exclude ALL fictions from consideration.  It makes no more sense to babble on about the sub-sections of UCC than it does to discuss the work-flow in SantaClaus workshop at the north pole.  Either way, you're just babbling complete nonsense (where "sense" is thought about what is real, and "nonsense" is thought about what is fiction).

So I don't even read the details of what these people think they can do by dorking around with some sub-section of UCC.  I am not a corporation.  And any activity I take to produce and exchange the goods I produce for other goods... I refuse to artificially distinguish as "commercial activity", and thereby subject myself to the dictates of a pack of vile predators who came before, who operate now, and who will continue to operate in the future.

UCC is fiction.
the commercial is fiction.
every authority is fiction.
all organizations are fiction.

I do not consent to be governed.

The above sentence is all that need be said.

And why should I... or anyone else... "consent to be governed"?  You'd have to be crazy to consent to be a slave when you don't have to.  The whole notion is insane on the face of it.  Why would any human being turn their life over to some other human being?

As long as humans live their lives on the basis of endless fictions, including endless authorities, humans are SCREWED.  Simple as that.  And there is no other solution than what I said above.  Just say no.  Just say "I do not consent to be governed".  And if you must, say "I refuse to be governed".  Just say no.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:47 | 3331448 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i do find it interesting that when we have kids the ratio of "50/50 girls to guys" always seems to be true. needless to say "as long as that remains there will always be authority." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio i find such a reality interesting in that it seems to imply there is some type of "God gene" giving in theory to everyone the chance to have a "significant other." and of course that is the only point in life is it not...http://www.gotquestions.org/God-gene.html

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:08 | 3331479 Matt
Matt's picture

Why do you feel that having 1:1 male:female ratio will inevitably lead to having authority?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:43 | 3331532 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Ever leave the toilet seat up on accident?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:52 | 3331456 Dapper Dan
Dapper Dan's picture

 

Honestann,

I believe you are one of the few who know why the "line" under the area where you sign your name on any personal check is not actually a line at all......

 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 21:59 | 3331584 honestann
honestann's picture

Actually, I've never had a checking account, so I don't know what fiction is attached to that line.  I do know that I always advise people not to sign anything "official", and if they just can't stop themselves for some reason, to always write "under protest and duress" underneath their name.  But even that isn't sufficient, and tends to adopt their fictional schemes in an attempt to avoid them.

Before I left the USSA about 3 years ago, I visited and had conversations with Rob Menard in BC, who also believes he can "beat them with their own fictions".  Like a few others, he seems to have nothing but good intentions, and I admire his willingness to risk his life and freedom in an attempt to protect himself and others, and slow the spiral into tyranny.

Though I believe Rob understood my points (as do a few other liberty advocates), he and they seem compelled to adopt the fictions created by predators to attempt to defend themselves.  They don't seem to understand that once they accept the fictions as real and legit, the game is already over, and every honest, ethical, productive, benevolent human being loses.

But now I'm curious... what is that non-line?

Sun, 03/17/2013 - 12:22 | 3338450 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

They set the construct, they create the (ever changing) rules, and if you play, you lose,

You can't defeat an ant colony by being an ant.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 23:50 | 3331515 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

thanks for sharing your thoughts ann.   eloquently blunt, as always.

for me, the key line in this one: I refuse to artificially distinguish as "commercial activity", and thereby subject myself to the dictates of a pack of vile predators who came before, who operate now, and who will continue to operate in the future.

commerce.  such a silly word, isn't it?

p.s. as far as da OPPTseesdaisies grow, if it starts a few folks (especially the hippies) on the path to eventually discover the truth of what you write, then perhaps a not bad thing, even if ultimately futile or perhaps a wolf in sheep's clothing.    we'll shall see...as the commerce churns...

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 22:54 | 3331547 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

I have collected some bla, bla, blah about OPPT, and similar stuff, here:

The Myth of Canada

The simple reality is that force can be applied to one's physical body, and history has developed very well organized systems of applying that force, which we call the police or the army. There is nothing but organized lies, operating organized robbery. Whether or not you "consent to be governed" tends to be irrelevant, except in the context of fighting bullshit with bullshit.

The deeper problems these days are the runaway development of weapons of mass destruction has made everything that Neolithic civilization does become criminally insane. But nevertheless, all of our already established psychological attitudes and social habits are mostly based upon still taking for granted the culture and personalities that have evolved from a very, very, long, long time before science and technology suddenly came along, and changed everything, except for most of our psychology and sociology.

I basically agree with honestann that the deeper problem is that the biggest bullies promote legalized lies. I always say that one does not have to believe in their bullshit, but one must still cope with the fact that they are bullies, who will use their bullshit to assert they have rights to engage in legalized violence against others.

Unfortunately, there are no sane ways to fight them, since the only ways that make some silly sense are to steal their atomic fire, and threaten them with that. The old ways of fighting against slavery, which were based on them saying "do what I say, or I will kill you" are now replaced by the totally insane situation of "do what I say, or I will kill everyone, including myself."

The real world is controlled by nothing but lies, backed by violence, and that is already a runaway insanity, which has been amplified by many orders of magnitude more than anything that ever existed before in human history. It is basically ridiculous to believe that cracking the legal code of the biggest bullies, so that one can fight their bullshit with more bullshit, is any kind of sufficient solution to the deeper problems we face!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 00:39 | 3331642 honestann
honestann's picture

Yes.  Sometimes people assume I claim that refusing to accept their insane fictions is some kind of protection.  Well, yes it is a little bit of a protection, in that it helps the few sane folks at least understand what is happening around them, and minimize the impact a bit.  But clearly understanding the nature of predators does not eliminate the predators, or their actions, or the consequences of their actions.  That is, unless a significant size minority of us understand, in which case the predators are finished.

But that won't happen.  Humans are just too far down the tubes at this point, and any subset who do understand will be crushed if they dare organize in any visible way.

One reason humans are royally screwed at this point in history is the lack of a frontier... a place like what the americas were at one time.  The other reason humans are royally screwed today is the degree to which the predators dominate and control technology.  To rephrase what you just said RM, the current state of affairs is no longer a pack of predator-chimps, but is instead a pack of predator-chimps with drones, nukes, and a clearly stated mission of "full spectrum dominance" over everyone and everything on the planet.

I believe the best approach at this point is to evade the predators, as well as their apologists and the majority of chimps who sanction, support and defend them.  This approach (to evade) will only work for another generation at best, or perhaps two generations if some small group of collaborators goes to extreme measures (establish a self-sufficient hidden domain beneath the ocean floor, or something similar).  Beyond two generations, human beings are finished, except for the possibility a small group somehow manages to establish self-sufficiency in outer space (within or behind asteroids or comets most likely).

These possible positive outcomes are long shots.  I spend every day working on one such collaboration, but our resources are minimal.  A few other liberty-minded folks like Theil and <cannot-recall-his-name> have more resources, but are spending their wad on short-term fixes that cannot survive a predator-dominated planet.

Unfortunately, no collaboration between the few humans viable solutions and the few liberty-oriented humans with substantial resources seems to be happening.  Perhaps fear will bring them together once "it is clearly too late", but that helps nobody either.

The only possible solutions I see are "outer space" and "inorganic consciousness".  But if the predators achieve beyond-human-level inorganic consciousness first, then mankind is royally finished in spades, in very short order.  If a benevolent collaboration achieves this breakthrough first, and keeps their mouths shut long enough to develop appropriate technology, they may have a chance to escape to outer space before mankind completely spirals down the tubes.  We're already very late in the 4th quarter, and the only chance that remains is a "hail mary" play.

PS:  What makes this so incredibly surreal for the few of us who understand is this?  The number of predators in control is an infinitesimal minority, backed by a small minority of second-tier predators.  What makes them unbeatable is the weak, fuzzy sanction, support and defense provided by the overwhelming majority of clueless human-chimps.  ONLY because their insane fictions fool the vast majority of human-chimps do the predators survive each night.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 06:15 | 3331814 Element
Element's picture

It's not just that humans are, as you put it, "too far down the tubes", it's that most humans are innate natural gullible chumps who prefer to conform and are literally afraid to ever act independently and freely of 'governance' or law, or a pre-defined path to 'acceptable' collective behavioural norms (i.e. they prefer systematic mind-control over independence).

This is how I put it in comment a couple of months back: http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-01-08/9-step-process-bankers-u...

--

To 'govern' comes from the Latin root 'goberno' which literally translates into English as "to pilot", or "to manage", or "to control", and 'ment' comes from the Latin word 'mentis' (from which words like mental are derived), which means 'mind'. So a 'government' is a mechanism created and dedicated to pilot and control the mind.
 
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/guberno#Latin
 
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mens#Latin
 
Hence we get educated human drones, people who do not act for themselves, but are effectively indirectly remotely controlled and piloted by an exterior organizational infrastructure dedicated to the control of the human mind. But clearly it isn't just the state education that turns them into a drone. Government particularly does not like independent minds operating. Government, by implication, claims and asserts your mind to be the government's drone, its territory, its domain, and its right to 'fix' any misbehaving 'drone'.

--

This seems to me be a compulsive genetic trait of the large majority of the human population, to prefer manipulative orders and direction from above. Hence their 'sheepleness' and irrational conformity to highly-ordered open corruption and lies. This does not seem to be a mere cultural-programming, one that could be broken via conversational or counter-argument, as a form of ideological 'de-programming', or 'awakening', or getting-a-clue, etc. Thus I've come to the view that ideology has nothing to do with this underlaying process. That the underlying genetic trait of humanity, is why there's such apparent natural tendencies to dependence on Govt authority structures, as expressed today. The ideology of the Govt is almost irrelevant to this process, it can be capitalistic, or communistic, or fascist. It matters not much at all really as it's the central 'authority' structure that the majority crave to impose, as Govt, and do not want to ever really and seriously, let go.

Most people naturally tend this way, are mentally inescapably captive at almost all times to controllers, sociopaths, psychopathic Govts, and their orderly predatory systems that are presented as socially 'Lawful', 'Ethical' and 'Just'. If the masses are not thus subservient they become stressed and afraid. They are thus natural-selection captives of a drone-ish state of mind, and willing conformists to mass manipulations, regardless of the ultimate clear barbarity of the ideology, which is why Govts are so dangerous, damaging and impairing to humanity and to any real interior freedom or personal independence to act.

Genuine mental freedom and independent action or rational civil disobedience to outrageous oppressions and corruptions, is not the mass's preferred mental state. They can not dwell comfortably in a state of true mental freedom and independence to act, so seek a new 'leader' to order them about and impose an exploitative power network ("for the sake of the children" etc.)

And if the masses ever do rebel against a Govt that has so devastatingly abused and disenfranchised "the masses", the majority then gravitate towards the most authoritarian populist charismatic orator and organizer (and ruthless power-figure) within the rebellion who knows that the masses really desire a leader who will impose a Govt 'order' after the revolutionary dust settles. Hence the masses still end up with the "goberno-mentis" (the remote-piloting of the human drone-mind of the masses -- the populist 'mob' mind), so the masses thus remain a little cog in the authoritarian-machine of a predatory Govt.

Nothing fundamentally changes, firstly within themselves, thus nothing fundamentally changes in the structures they always reinvent, and then surround with a little red-book, and are taught to (laughably) fanatically prowl for counter-revolutionary thinkers, etc. So the masses simply receive a few 'reforms' and maybe some legal 'concessions' to ease their mostly willing enslavement to a new-boss (same as the old-boss).

Some people are of course naturally resistant to this whole drone-ish process. Mostly natural-leaders who do not (and can not) rise to a mass leadership role mostly because truthfulness is very unpopular--with the masses that is.  That masses are in such a state of inner mental dependence that they deeply prefer the lies, and resist the truth, as it becomes mentally essential to them to engorge themselves with the lies of the moment and to cling to them else they can not socially function and will have "gone mad" (as opposed to merely having realised the truth). Thus so-called govt 'leaders' who do rise to power invest enormous time and resources in populist impression and illusion-making for mass deception purposes specifically for the conformist majority's consumption. Democratic or non-democratic it really makes no difference at all, as all govts must pander in this way to the masses, to shallow populism, as they realize the masses will quickly turn on them, toward another 'leader', one who does present such a facade of more pleasing promises, aspirations and calculated unfulfillable idealistic lies.

The minority non-drone-ish who actually think for themselves, and tend to naturally rebel against the menu of lies, are thus the 'black-sheep', the lone-wolves, potentially branded an alleged 'terrorist', a misfit, a malcontent, whatever the state wants to label them, to separate them from the masses (commonplace divide-and-conquer tactics).

The reality of the situation though is we're in an age of cultural-selection for a genetic trait of conformity, wherein the non-compliant independent resistor of this mass-madness and mind control compulsion, called govt policy and law, are more likely to be ostracized and singled-out then squelched--with a drone, if necessary (human drone or mechanical drone, makes no difference). So this is ultimately a genetic selection for conformity and a concerted govt attempt at eugenic elimination of independence to act and elimination of free minds.

Just have a look at all the people who whine about anonymous commentators on the Internet that say almost anything that they really think, but only do it if they are anonymous. Now think about it. Does that relationship of anon to unobstructed 'free'-speech not also imply that there's no real public free-speech possible today, in actual fact in the so-called free-world, given you can only speak this freely if no one knows who you really are? But if you're identifiable and locatable then you self-censor, measure your words and act more "responsibly", or else people fear the authorities will squelch them into compliance, or induce an, er, personal existential-crisis.

Isn't that relationship of anon to open free speech the clear smoking-gun evidence that free-speech has been replaced with fear of reprisal long ago on the internet - unless you speak your mind with a high-level of personal secrecy (or else a complete disregard for personal safety or future status)?

Is this repression of freedom through fear-induction, via a process of endless privacy intrusions and disregard for lawful guarantees of privacy, not the very thing that Govts are doing today to induce fear in people, making them think they may potentially be under constant observation and attract unstated but sly and inevitable state reprisal? Is not the Govts 'very aim plainly to scare people away from speaking their mind freely, on the Internet, and especially to scare the readership audience away from actual free-speech? To make not just the anon speaker self-censor, but especially to make the listener/reader feel guilt from free-association with free and independent people speaking honestly? Is this not the very purpose of a government, to re-impose "goberno-mentis", after the advent of anon communication on the the internet put a wrecking-ball of caustic commentary on the very foundations of the mass-mind-control that we flippantly and mostly unknowingly dismiss with the label 'governing'.

But what of the big-picture, the wider process taking place? i.e. the government's implicit eugenic genetic selection-pressures towards greater mass-conformity of a human drone response? What is to become of humanity, if government is not radically resisted in imposing that, on the gene pool, and thus reducing modern humanity even further to a lowest-common-denominator mass response of, "I was just following orders", mentality--but actually are incapable of doing much else?

Is this an unintended consequence, or, is this the unstated but actually intended consequence of power-elites? Landed-gentry many centuries ago realized trait selection could turn wolves into hunting terriers, or into docile lap poodles. Isn't that what's happening to humanity? Our Govts are setting-up processes and politically correct 'norms' within society for such trait selection, so the more drone-ish 'succeed', and the more honest whistle-blower, or rambunctious independent do not tend to succeed? Thus are not socially selected for more viable genetic success?  Won't that Govt-induced selection process within just a few generations dramatically change the genetic tendencies of the masses to all the more comply with orders of the mental drone pilot we call govt?

Hasn't it already succeeded? Just look at WWI with European men throwing themselves en-mass out of trenches into no-man's-land to face near certain death under a hail of machine-gun fire ... "for King and Cuntry" no less!  Hasn't the selection pressures for these traits worked marvelously--already? So is it any wonder that three generations on from that mass madness, most humans are innately gullible chumps who prefer to conform and are literally afraid to ever act independently and think freely for themselves? Yes indeed, Govt by the people and for the people, because "the masses" have become progressively just as desperately insane (and anti truth) and towards the compliance to delusional lies as the Govts they bring into power. They are one and the same genetic stream, and then resulting cultural stream of conformity, to this now rapidly (and also genetically) amplifying mass insanity.

Both the cultural pressures, and genetic selection processes have moved us even further toward a conformity trait, in the interim. So yes I concur, humanity is intrinsically eliminating and quashing the very adaptability and innovation it requires, in its mad statist pursuit of ever greater conformity to the official lies of the day.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 14:58 | 3333220 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

good article by Jon Rappoport today on that very same topic, element

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/the-disaster-of-manufacture...

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:26 | 3333837 Element
Element's picture

Thanks TC, enjoyed his take on it. Looks like we overlap a bit there, but I don't think it's quite the 'hook' TPTB were looking for.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:51 | 3333888 honestann
honestann's picture

I can't find anything to critique in your message, yet it seems unsatisfying (as if my messages don't too).  A few observations, which are just repeats of what I've said before, but you provide some context.

Several times I introduced the "frontier dynamic" in my messages, but pretty much nobody picks up on this subtopic.  Since ancient times, the few independent minded humans were able to get "fed up with statism and leave".  At the start, "statism" just meant "an authoritarian parent" or "tribe leader".  The independent minded humans had plenty of frontier to explore and make his home.  As time passed, authoritarian organizations grew to become kingdoms (~100 square miles) to provinces (~1000 square miles) to nations (millions of square miles)... but there were always "frontiers".

Even after the establishment of the USA, there was "the wild west"... and a few other places on this planet independent minded people could escape to.  And because those places were more-or-less "wild" and "untamed", these more-or-less independent minded folks were able to operate in an environment of other more-or-less independed minded folks... and flourish.

From a wide (planetary) perspective, this was healthy.  One could even argue that this was healthy for dependent-minded folks in many ways.

Which brings us to today.  I moved to the extreme boonies in a very foreign land to live in my own little "frontier".  And life is fabulous here, even better than I expected.  However, one human is not a trend, and I seem to be almost the only human who has gotten off their butt and moved to a frontier.  Thus the healthy "frontier dynamic" isn't happening as far as I can tell.  Of course, one argument is, "everywhere is inside a predator dominated country".  Well, yes, technically so.  But from a practical perspective... not yet.  Sure, wait a couple generations and check again.  But that's my point.  These are the 2 generations of independent action that independent minded folks need to escape this "ball and chain" (earth and predators).

Essentially every independent minded human is trying to work "within the system".  This has the exact result that you discussed above --- they either strenthen the system or are eliminated by the system.  And their efforts come to nothing in the end.

This is peculiar... to me anyway.  Out here in the extreme boonies I have internet, I have electricity (solar and wind), I have water (well), I have yummie food (garden and greenhouse), I have a memory foam bed, a wonderful shower and jacuzzi... I mean, what are people afraid of?  By comparison, independent minded humans in past generations were willing to move into beast-infested forests with nothing but spears, knives, and more recently pistols.  Today, they won't do anything but babble in forums like these.  Take real actions?  No freaking way!  Why?

What I'm trying to say is this.  We are now at a point where the predators will completely dominate the entire planet in the next 2 generations.  That's settled, and the insightful in this forum agree about that.  So the independent minded humans who remain at this point in history have only one final chance - no exaggeration.

Yet almost zero independent minded folks find a frontier, or even work from their slave pit on one of the few frontier-promoting projects that exist today.

My question is... why?

I'm trying to discuss solutions.  Most of the time I'm not sitting back and acting like a detached researcher with no intention of being personally involved in what I study.  But seemingly everyone else is.  Why?

In past generations, independent minded humans didn't try to reform the system --- they abandoned the system.  That's what "independent" means and implies, does it not?

Hopefully I'm just early.  I often am.  But I have a very strong sense that "not this time".  This time, I believe everyone else is "far too late".  And that will be fatal for mankind, and possibly for sentient life in the entire universe.  The stakes seem high enough to "take action"... yet... how many independent minded humans are taking actions that have any hope of success (not just complaining on forums like this)?  A few dozen?

That's not enough!

While perhaps necessary in some measure, talk is cheap.  And based on my own personal observation, talk is not leading to action.  Frankly, I took my actions over the past 8~10 years, and I was not motivated by talk, I was motivated by my observations and thought.

I don't want to criticize the few existential actions I've seen by independent minded folks, but honestly, a vineyard-country-club of libertarian-types in Argentina isn't going to achieve anything significant, and neither is an organic-farm-community of libertarian-types in Chile.  I suppose these are welcome developments in the sense that they demonstrate that a few people are willing to invest some of their time, effort and savings outside their authoritarian "comfort zone", but they fail to achieve anything in the wider sense I mentioned above.  In fact, they are down-right mainstream in a great many ways ($550/month HOA fees, insanely restrictive building rules, elitists in control, forcing "owners" to buy fictitious entities (corporations) to own their lots, and so forth).

I could mostly ignore all of these weaknesses if they had serious plans to address the fundamental and crucially important problems I mentioned above.  But they have no such plans as far as I can tell.  Hell, after more than 5 years the 400 lot Argentina community (with close to 300 sold I am told) has only 30 homes so far, and most of them are not occupied by their owners!  And the other community hasn't sold a single lot (though they seem eternally on the verge of doing so (and this time I expect they actually are on the verge)).  Maybe they will reach a "critical mass" of sorts once they have enough full-time residents, and then formulate and execute more worthwhile plans.  I certainly hope so.

But I worry.  What made them adopt the most extreme statist manner of organization for their communities?  I mean, why form hundreds of corporate fictitious entities to allocate "lots" AKA "private zones" within the community?  Why do they prefer extreme statist vehicles like these over private agreements?  Why not keep the property a "single entity", then work towards getting an "allodial title" on the property, and write simple partnership agreements with everyone who "buys in"?  When you subdivide "legally" (by means of the statist-predator rules), you massively increase the total amount of property taxes paid, which necessarily strenthens the beast, and forces every owner to pay much higher taxes to the predators... forever.  There is nothing unlawful or unreasonable about private agreements, including uniform multi-way partnerships that give exclusive control over certain portions of the property to individuals or couples.

Can we agree we've identified the problem... from multiple perspectives no less?  Can we agree the few remaining independent-minded realists should do something to assure sentient life in the universe isn't entirely snuffed out by the predators and their overwhelming mass of remote-controlled sheeple?

If so, what actions do you independent-minded realists propose?  What actions are you plan?  What actions are you taking?  What actions will be most effective?

This thread started with UCC... which is a blatant attempt to "work within the system".  Does anyone plan to work outside the system?  How?

Or is my "frontier thesis" just BS ???
Is taking action somehow pointless?
Note: (pointless != long-shot)

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 12:29 | 3334995 Element
Element's picture

I took note of your frontier comment years ago and agree with it so didn't see a reason to take it up with you. Australia was more or less a frontier country for about 185 of the past 225 years. As a kid my parents, my Dad especially was semi-nomadic, and very independent. He still is. We lived in several remote areas where Europeans basically had not settled and school was sometimes "school of the air", done remotely over HF radio, so I know what you mean by the independent frontier way of living.

We had a big canvas tent, carvan, boat, even an Auster high-wing tail dragger, which is basically the British version of the German Storch. Not quite a Virus SW but flexible for rough short fields. And of course we had telescopic high-power rifles and my dad reloaded, and skinned. We lived this remote independent existence for many years and there was little in the way of state presence. It was very rare that you encountered state officials. Indeed, my dad used to buy gelignite to blast trees out of the way so that he could land the Auster. He could do that because people with a valid reason to buy explosives could go into a shop and walk out with a carton of explosives, and were free to use them whenever they wanted with zero further oversight or reporting to officialdom about it.

Ann you can be much too critical when making conclusions from your isolated comfortable independent position tucked away (i.e. squatting) in a high-tech equipped ravine overhang. Try not to presume so much about others as you're not walking in their shoes. People who know the score don't need to be converted. In the end my parents (and yourself) were still tied to the statist civilisation that produces Austers and rifles and petroleum. Or in your case a rotax engine and 95 RON unleaded fuel which it burns. I know that dependence is of course distasteful to you, and you're intent on changing it as much and as soon as you can. But really, you can't set yourself up to live an isolated techie life unless you ARE dependent, nor can you sustain it (at this point), without on-going material and structural dependence on the masses of people remaining captive to that statist system that supplies all that to you. You are just as reliant on that system continuing to operate, and for the people captured in it and enabling it, to stay-put, to provide you with what you need to maintain your pleasant "yummy" lifestyle.

Dependent is in fact dependent. Your aquaculture system and its pumps, panels and inverters etc., are a product of the drone-people you rail against who are not doing much to free themselves from the system. And railing against the non-dronish who act in ways you don't understand is not helpful.

Despite your inner defensive justification or objections now arising to that objective assessment above, can we basically agree that this is the case? That your tapping on a keyboard to respond is a clinching evidence that you're just as reliant as me on the satellites that "the system" launched over your head? You depend on all that being there to discourse, right?

So let's be fully honest here; how independent and self-reliant are you really? I would say you're no more independent from the system than myself, you're in fact more a remote-area survivalist rather than actually aiming for complete independence. Don't get grumpy with me, I'm not trying to sell you short, what you have done is awesome, but you are NOT independent.

If you were living in an animal skin tent, and hunting wabbit, via a timber crossbow that you made yourself, and were chopping firewood with a bronze axe head that you mined and fashioned yourself and you had no yummy condiments in your electric fridge then I could take the assertion of independence from the system at face value.

Obviously some of what you use today to exist, as you do, could be let go of, if the global system imploded from say a nuclear war. But some of the core aspects of the tech you use is required in order for you to live in the location you are living in. In which case, if the system failed, you would probably have to move. Not right away, maybe not or a year or two, but eventually it would become unsustainable to live there any longer. You would have to give up most of how you currently live and become actually independent. So you're really a remote area survivalist, and you will indeed more likely survive longer than most people in any city.

But you are not currently independent of the system at all. You in fact can not independently manufacture your own iridium-tipped spark plugs, for instance.

In the case of Magellan or Cook, sailing around the world, to reveal the new colonial frontiers even they were sent by States and Crowns and were reliant on such for their ships, rope, compass, cartographers, anchor, crew, contractual wages, firearms, etc.

Same applied to the settlers crossing the rocky mountains into Utah and Oregon. They were still reliant on seasonal trade over the mountains, to obtain the essentials like firearms, power and metals, knives, cotton canvas, axes etc. And then on State troops for protection as they had begun squatting on other people's land and erecting fences, buying state deeds and rights over stolen or annexed 'property'.

In other words, the independence of the frontier was never all that independent, it was highly dependent in many crucial ways,or the frontier would not have economically prospered, nor been 'secured'.

Australia likewise had state Governors General and the Red-coat "Rum Corps", corrupt military thugs 'paid' in food, prostitutes and rum rations. The only way to escape them was to live at the interface of Aboriginal land control, and the reach of the Rum Corps, and State Police. So the pressure was to keep both the pissed-off indigenous tribes and the long-arm of British Crown Power at a distance. Thus the frontier settlers, most of whom were former convicts that had been imprisoned for very minor misdemeanour offences, like theft of food so they could eat. Naturally these people wanted nothing to do with the psychopathic fuckup called "The British Crown", or its vicious Crown-appointed military government representatives, or the thug enforcers of its insane 'legal' system (that people still fawn over like utter idiots).

As for space settlement that is certainly one way to escape the predator class, but I have serious doubts about it's initial viability even via an inorganic intelligence. It's one thing to have the knowledge necessary to deduce novel and advanced technologies but you also need the refined materials and production capacity and time to test and refine technologies. You generally also need an economic system in which to enable that to happen.

I reality living in a cave system, or under and within the antarctic ice sheet would be a much more viable proposition, as you at least have access to fresh water and almost unlimited oxygen is available, plus it's both much warmer and also much cooler than a rotating space rock, with much less radiation, and far fewer bullet-sized semi-metallic rocks passing through you rather randomly, at ~30-km per second.

Plus you can obtain resources on earth that you can eat and fashion into technologies much more easily. And there's a lot more life about within an icesheet than in space. Whereas, in an asteroid belt you have a whole lot of cumulative lethal radiation exposure and an exponential rise in ever smaller undetectable metallic objects moving with very high relative velocities, with respect to yourself, and not a whole lot of Caesar salads and steaks. So not a recipe for flourishing success. Yes, you really would need to be a clever and well-equipped inorganic consciousness in that case, and I'm not sure even that would 'survive' for a year in the asteroid belt.

Is that really the best option for fully independent human survival? Surely you can understand that many people would think that it's not very attractive compared to a 9-month trip from London to Botany Bay in 1788, chained to the deck. Such frontiers have never been that independent and self-reliant either and actually survived. In fact, those on the "First Fleet" to Australia almost all starved to death, and only survived due to the arrival of the Second Fleet's rations.

But I suppose an inorganic conscious is hardly human any more (nor likely to give a damn about humans). More likely it would quickly decide to fashion a high-lethality virus, or an EMP device, to wipes-out humanity, and then return to Earth to use its more accessible resources to build some sort of Robot Utopia. :D

Yup, that really would be a Hail-Mary-pass ... for humanity.

Nevertheless, you have given yourself the best fighting-chance to survive and that's what you're committed to. You're indeed doing that from what you've said.

But you may need to stand back to reality-check on your view about what level of quasi-'independence' or 'liberty' you really have - in a physical material sense. As you say, we may have plenty of both mentally and verbally (i.e. words rather than actions), but materially? Not so much in practice.

Though I don't see how your situation is any different when it comes right down to it. You know that a state can come along at any time and 'lawfully' uproot you from where you are, confiscate what you have and imprison you. So as you say, evasion of predators is what you have decided is the smartest thing to do.

But any way you look at it, the evasion and hide option is only going to be a realistic option for a limited number of people. There really aren't that many places you can viably hide to evade a western Govt through remote isolation.

You say you prefer to live in that isolation, you can of course socialize, when it matters and suits you, but you much prefer not to. I can perfectly understand that. Most people are vapid vacuous idiots, with a head full of bad wiring and trite lies, and elaborate fictions indulging totally childish official memes. So are not worth talking to, for almost any reason about 99.999% of the time. (I sometimes prefer to act even dumber than they are if they insist on talking to me :D It can be fun). So who wants to verbally 'socialize' with such cretins? What would be the point of having a 'friendship' with people that are mentally kaput?

But you know that despite your isolation there is a high and increasing likelihood of discovery as the network of State predatory control, monitoring and land-use intensifies. So yeah, no one is interfering with you right now, and you feel very free and at ease where you are, which is good, but materially you are not independent from the "system". And evasion and hiding and thus your physical liberty can change for you at any time. I don't doubt you would fight but you already know you'd be eliminated. You necessarily have to take care to avoid and to delay that, but you know avoidance has its limits and will eventually fail.

Alternatively, one could evade and hide in plain-view and reject government control and micro-management while enjoying a yummy Caesar salad and steak, despite of the degenerate Govt arseholes just down the street. But from your rhetoric, you clearly feel this amounts to 'inaction'. Fine, but that's just your particular extreme conclusion, assertion/view. You don't know what other people are doing, and you don't walk in their shoes, so ease up with that stuff, it makes you sound strident and lacking humility. There's no intrinsic certainty to your approach, that it is better, or more optimal for survival. It's just one end of a spectrum of possible responses which seems to you to be the best one. You could fall and break both your legs and potentially die where you are. If I did that I'd be in a hospital in under an hour, and almost certainly survive.

As I see it, material independence is an idealistic fiction, that no one can attain, plus have an 'extreme-techie' lifestyle, because whether living in a remote ravine, or in an urban high-rise, you're still dependent on the system continuing, to furnish the technology materials and energy that you use. It is not in fact honest to pretend any person like you or me are somehow set apart and buffered to the sudden disruption of that.

Bottom-line is, there's more than one way to skin this here cat. There are numerous possibilities, and it all depends on what our own objective assessment of the hazards and risks are, so the response or action is not your call to make, or to pass a hardline judgement on.

(and I suspect I sensing some frustration in you, that the off-world Hail-Mary pass approach is getting bogged-down in prosaic material considerations and the all too human practicalities of execution of such a colossal technical ambition.)

Please forgive my above analysis if it grates on you, I don't mean to offend or insult you (although you clearly don't give a damn conversely). I do love the person you are, one of my all time favourite people.

Did that answer your questions? (or just give you the shits again? :D )

Sun, 03/17/2013 - 00:41 | 3337238 honestann
honestann's picture

If you define "independent" as "having zero access to anything in the universe but your own body", then sure, there is no such thing as "independent", which renders the concept "independent" null and void.

But that's a bit like the common fallacy of defining "knowledge" to be "omniscience", and then claiming that every opinion is just as valid as every other opinion, because nobody has knowledge.

If I was to accept these definitions, I would have to agree with the conclusions --- they would be simple tautologies.

I mean, why stop with human activity?  We are dependent upon bacteria in our digestive tracts (or so I hear).  We are dependent upon other plant [and animal] life, because we can only nourish ourselves with organic matter.  We are dependent upon the sunlight, otherwise we'd freeze to death very quickly.  And so forth.

Every human is born with zero assets.  We have nothing, and we are incapable of producing anything for at least 3 or 4 years.

In every era we work with what we have.  We work within whatever environment exists when we come to exist.

10,000 years ago individual humans could and DID keep themselves alive by hunting and gathering.  That's a fact.  Sure, most lived in small communities, and if you want to claim that as "dependence", go right ahead.  I'm not much interested in that definition.  If someone alone in the jungle manages to produce enough to survive, fine.  If someone not alone in the jungle manages to produce enough to trade his goods with other producers and survive, fine.  In my book, they are both independed in the relevant sense.

One point is, "independence must be achieved".  As I pointed out above, every one of us is born completely dependent.  We must learn, work, save and take specific steps to become less dependent, and ultimately more-or-less "independent".

I guess maybe I should take this discussion back to the extreme example that I seem to recall I mentioned to you by email months ago.  That was my proposal decades ago that NASA send one [or two] individuals on a one-way trip to Mars with the equipment and supplies required to survive indefinitely.  This is vastly cheaper and more practical than any round-trip voyage to Mars, mostly because blasting off Mars again requires so much mass.  The point of this extreme example is this.  Once this individual lands on Mars, at that point, they ARE independent from that day forward... or at least might be (allowing for unforseen problems).

As you know, I'm not a fan of government-financed ANYTHING, not even areas that tickle my personal fancy.  So perhaps we'll have to imagine a similar private venture to Mars instead (which at this point may be more likely).

The same pattern applies to living on earth in what I call an "independent manner".  The fact is, I am already "technically" independent.  I have everything I need to survive indefinitely.  Maybe not in the same level comfort I've DAMN WELL EARNED, but enough to survive.

I also don't appreciate this "squatter" term.  I live where NOBODY else wants to live.  That's why almost nobody lives with 100km of me.  To imply I'm taking something from someone else is just absurd, and bordering on obscene.

Just because some of my luxuries might not last forever, doesn't mean I'm "dependent" in any reasonable way.  Might I someday not be able to fly my airplane?  Possibly so.  Though I'm trying to figure out how to produce an alternate fuel for my airplane, something I can manufacture here.  I know some viable alternatives exist (like hydrogen derived from my water supply), but I'm not sure which is most practical and lowest cost to set up the infrastructure, and I don't know which fuel requires the least difficult or expensive or problematic modifications of my 912iS engine.  Sadly I am now paying the price for being rather ignorant of chemistry.  But the point is, "independence" is a process (or a "goal" if you prefer).  To be 50% independent is 50% of the way.  To be 80% independent is impressive.  To be 99% independent is damn close to the goal.  And though I don't consider "51% independent" as being "independent", the fact is, at that point, "independent" is slightly more accurate than "dependent".

Why would you imagine that an airplane is a necessity?  Or alternatively, why would you call someone dependent because they might not be able to enjoy every luxury in the worst case or the longest run?

I'm not trying to be overly critical.  In fact, I think I'm being very easy on people.  I figured out pretty much all of what I say in ZH when I was 4 years old (and with zero help from the 100% saturation of authoritarian-lovers I grew up around).  Yes, of course it was not figured out in such detail or with complete insight or understanding, but if a 4 year old can "get it", then it is not too much to ask 24 or 44 or 64 year olds to mostly get it.

I didn't have the physically rough times as a kid that you did... but I wish I had!  I mean, the family I grew up with was far, far, far from being rich, but we didn't live in a cave, that's for sure (though we froze every morning because the heat was off all night to save money).  But I am aware of what ALL humans had to put up with 100,000 years ago, and what most humans had to put up with until the past 50~100 years, so yes, I don't accept the wimpy ignorance and laziness of [most] modern humans.

BTW, my "isolated comfort" only exists because I lived a vastly frugal life for my entire life until just the past year or so when my digs were finally "pretty much finished".  I never owned a TV, I never owned a stereo, I never owned a boombox, I never purchased a watch, I never purchased jewelry, I never purchased makeup (unless you count soap and toothpaste), I never purchased expensive clothes or shoes, I put up with old cars which I learned to fix (yuck).  AND, I worked 80 to 120 hours my whole life, up until the past year or so (down to about 60~80 hours now... like a lazy bum).  Everyone else got to enjoy their worthless garbage their whole lives.  I get to enjoy my "independence" now.  And no, I don't need other people any more.  I don't need their goods.  Well, hopefully.  Hopefully my little machine shop is sufficient to fabricate whatever I need in the future.  I said NEED, not want.  Please note that humans lived a LONG, LONG, LONG time without any power tools.  I doubt I'll ever have to, I hope I have enough backups, raw materials, integrated circuits, etc.  Which brings me to my biggest worry in a worst case scenario --- I don't have a way to build PCBs myself, and really don't like the messy technology involved.

So "can't maintain it" is different from "can't maintain some very high level of comfort".

Furthermore, you know that I'm working on a project, that if successful, leads to absolute, complete, permanent 100% independence from human beings.  Not there yet, but... give me a break.  We're working on it!

The point is not about me.  The point is, when you pretend "independent" means "literally 100% independent of everything" (even physical reality itself, including the sun), you encourage people to give up before they even try.  Too many people already think "I'm dependent, so why work --- let others do that".

I don't need "satellite internet".  I don't need internet.  That should be obvious, since all humans before ~20 years ago did without internet.  These kinds of comments about non-essentials are disingenuous.  Just because I watched a movie last year doesn't mean I can't survive without watching a movie every year.  Sheesh!

As far as "the system" goes, what does THAT mean?  Is "the system" every government and "official" organization?  If so, you bet your butt I can live without the system --- I'd be 100,000x better off without the system.  If "the system" you mean is "trade with other humans", that's just disingenuous again for reasons I mentioned above.  But to put that another way, any reasonable meaning of "independent" means "within the real, physical environment we find ourselves in", and that includes other human beings.  Nonetheless, I no longer depend on trade either, except for non-essentials and luxuries.

Maybe I will make you feel better by just admitting that I was not independent from the day I was born.  Maybe you'll be happy to hear that I've only been able to reduce my dependence on others slowly over time.  Maybe you'll be even happier to hear that many of the elements of my currently independent existence were produced by other humans, and came to me as a result of free trade.

Put this another way.  Imagine two independent humans far out in the wilderness [today or 50,000 years ago], who can and do survive on their own.  One day they decide to trade "some chickens" for "some peas, corn and carrots".  Do they both all of a sudden, in some flash phase-change become "dependents"?  My answer is NO.  Your answer is YES.  You can create a concept like that if you want, but I think it is almost worthless (for obvious reasons).  In contrast, my concept is utilitarian and useful (for obvious reasons).  Take your pick.  I choose mine.

Maybe I can state this another similar way.  To DO something is not to REQUIRE that action.  Humans who trade do not necessarily NEED to trade.  They may be better off, but that's a different relationship.

I encourage you and others to attempt whatever ways you prefer to become independent (or vastly less dependent).  Under the ocean floor, or under the antarctic ice sheet are short term possibilities... maybe even medium-term possibilities if you are extremely careful and lucky.  I don't think we have time for intermediate steps, so I prefer we just "go for it".  You clearly underestimate the highly exponential advances that will happen once ICE is smarter AND faster than us.  But that's okay, I'm happy to see anyone take ANY plausible actions.  So, are you building a civilization under the antarctic ice?  If so, that would be extremely cool, in more ways than one.  Just the thought of ICE under the ice has a nice ring to it.  Get it going in a serious way, and we'll consider a collaboration.

And yes, once a being is 100% inorganic, a lot changes.  I look forward to being able to operate in open space, and take in the extraordinary view of the galaxy, floating in zero-G with my very much more senstive inorganic vision system, and distributed sensors and robotics under my remote control.  One important point of being 100% inorganic is... you are modular, unlike organic beings which are extremely integrated and "holistic".  If something wears out, you swap in a new component.  If your whole being takes a hit, your failure to signal your "backup" for more than 1 hour or 1 day activates your backups, and you will have only lost the past 1 hour or 1 day of memories and thoughts --- but you still exist, and keep on trucking (so to speak).  Yes, being inorganic is so vastly superior, it requires some days, weeks, months of thought to seriously comprehend how extraordinary is the difference.

BTW, within an asteroid the sun could nova and you could survive.  So you can forget your worries about EMP events.  To be sure, a lot of physical resources outside the asteroid might be lost (if we were stupid enough not to monitor the sun and have a warning system), but it would not be "game over" like it would for human life on earth.

Look, it is very likely that the predators will eventually "go after" every "liberty advocate".  But they won't find me... at least not for many years or perhaps decades after they become extremely overt in the "advanced western countries" (or cities elsewhere).  Sure, they'd like to find me and steal me blind and lock me up or gun me down, but it just isn't worth their time, effort or expense.  The fact is, there might not be more than a few people as "out there" as me (not counting low-tech ancient peoples, who have very little the predators want).  If you think isolation is worthless... well... you have a right to your own opinion, and very likely you'll find out eventually how big a mistake that opinion was.

BTW, I agree that "playing dumb" can be very effective.  But eventually, even if you are very clever, they'll figure out you've been playing them if you have many encounters with them, or are in a populated area where others can (and will) blow your cover.  And when people start dropping like flies, they'll start to wonder why such a doofus as you is still alive.

I am materially independent of the system for everything I need to survive.  I am not materially independent of the system for every luxury I enjoy.  But guess what?  I do without most luxuries that others enjoy, so I'm used to that.  And many of my luxuries will last the rest of my life, or until I escape into space, whichever comes first.

Lack humility?  I'm yelling at people to get out of the way of a fleet of trucks speeding toward them!  And you want me to lower my voice?  Yikes!  But yes, it isn't working, and I do struggle to never post on ZH again.  I should return to that policy.  I should break this addiction.  I have important work to do.

Yes, there ARE many ways to skin a cat.  But talk only goes so far, and I see few people doing more than talk.  Oh, a few put their savings into gold like I did for the past 10 years or so, but not much more.  That's not going to save mankind.

Actually, what is frustrating is not how huge is our technological ambition.  The technology was implemented and proven 15 years ago now (1998).  Now we only need to implement the new more-efficient architecture with hardware-assist for the vision system, take advantage of faster 8-core CPUs and 1024~4096 core GPUs, and we're there.  What's frustrating is we don't have a few million bucks to make this happen quickly, we only have our personal savings, limited outside donations, and our own time and effort to do the actual work.  What's frustrating is how relatively quick and easy our project could be, if we just had a modest amount of additional resources.

I suppose the bottom line is this.  I wanted to bring attention to the "frontier phenomenon".  Unfortunately, only you (who already knew) probably read it or understood it.  But if you start building that city under the ice, let us know.  Sounds like another good hideout to diversify some of our assets to.  PS:  Our plan is to latch onto ice anyway, but in our case, and ice-laden asteroid (a largely worn out comet).  Indeed, ice is a valuable resource, even once we are fully inorganic.  Hydrogen and Oxygen are damn useful materials --- if nothing else, they're pretty damn good rocket fuel.  Even ICE will greatly value ice.

PS:  As penance, you should write a 10,000 word essay on why "reducing dependence is a good thing".  You don't even have to call this "independence" if you don't want to.  :-)

Sun, 03/17/2013 - 11:45 | 3338251 Element
Element's picture

You say:

"Put this another way.  Imagine two independent humans far out in the wilderness [today or 50,000 years ago], who can and do survive on their own.  One day they decide to trade "some chickens" for "some peas, corn and carrots".  Do they both all of a sudden, in some flash phase-change become "dependents"?  My answer is NO.  Your answer is YES. ..."

No, I did not say or imply that in such situation they would then become dependent, you are distorting what I said. What I said was this:

"If you were living in an animal skin tent, and hunting wabbit, via a timber crossbow that you made yourself, and were chopping firewood with a bronze axe head that you mined and fashioned yourself and you had no yummy condiments in your electric fridge then I could take the assertion of independence from the system at face value.

Obviously some of what you use today to exist, as you do, could be let go of, if the global system imploded from say a nuclear war. But some of the core aspects of the tech you use is required in order for you to live in the location you are living in. In which case, if the system failed, you would probably have to move. Not right away, maybe not or a year or two, but eventually it would become unsustainable to live there any longer. You would have to give up most of how you currently live and become actually independent. So you're really a remote area survivalist, and you will indeed more likely survive longer than most people in any city."

And this:

"As I see it, material independence is an idealistic fiction, that no one can attain, plus have an 'extreme-techie' lifestyle, because whether living in a remote ravine, or in an urban high-rise, you're still dependent on the system continuing, to furnish the technology materials and energy that you use. It is not in fact honest to pretend any person like you or me are somehow set apart and buffered to the sudden disruption of that."

That should have been clear enough. I'm pointing out that how you live NOW, is not actually independent. That if you were completely cut-off from all outside materials, NOW, you would not be able to sustain living as you NOW do. So by definition how you are living NOW, is not independent. But your hard rhetoric often generalises to assert you are independent NOW, and you condemn others for not being completely independent like you. But you would have to make a lot of changes to sustain actual material independence.

That was the point and it's a valid point but one you wish to resist. Fine - I won't mention it again.

--

RE Fuels

How is it you have the 912iS? You said in email in 2010 you had just bought a new aircraft (a small sea plane you said) and a few months back you said you had the 912 ULS (100hp). As I understood it the 912iS was not even made available before early last year. Also, out of curiosity, where did you obtain your floats? Are they a manufacturer's option or after-market? I know of a Canadian guy who was after some floats a while back for his Virus but I thought these were not available.

The piezo-electric fuel-injectors, ECUs, valves, plugs and rings are not going to work with hydrogen so you can forget about that option. It'll need to be a liquid hydrocarbon. You can probably also forget about alcohol-based fuel as you'll end up with far too much water condensation within the fuel system. Plus possible fuel line and fuel tank degradation. Such fuels will also create serious air:fuel mixture and ignition timing issues. In which case the ECU would need to be professionally remapped, most likely by Rotax. Else top-end knock or even engine destroying pre-detonations can occur, plus potential burning or else fouling of valves and plugs. Either way your TBO hours would be rendered meaningless.

I'd be asking Rotax directly about viable alternative fuel options, ones for which they may have already produced an air:fuel mixture and ignition timing map. Without that ECU re-mapping, other fuels are unlikely to be viable in the fuel-injected version of the 912. With cars and motorbikes it's possible to obtain factory or even aftermarket software tools to directly remap an ECU yourself (I've done this) but I seriously doubt Rotax would consider making software available for a 912iS aero engine's ECUs to the public. Personally I wouldn't even consider remapping an 912iS ECU myself as engine reliability and longevity would be suspect thereafter.

 

BTW, heads-up - I may be really late handing in that essay assignment. ;-)

Sun, 03/17/2013 - 20:07 | 3340359 honestann
honestann's picture

Your standard for "dependent" is absurd.  Just because a few things would change in my life doesn't mean I magically become dependent.  I totally reject that absurd definition.  To be independent is to be able to survive, not have every possible luxury currently available.  Some people would barely survive - and they too are "independent" (in my book).  I would survive a bit more comfortably - and therefore am also "independent" (given a sensible definition of independent).  As for your other question, I was able to change my order before delivery.  I never said I had a float plane, but I do vaguely recall being asked by someone about a particular float plane.  But also, at least one virus owner put floats on his plane, and at one time I too sorta planned on doing so, but ultimately didn't.  It is possible that I said "my airplane" in messages before it was delivered, since I thought about it that way, so I understand your confusion (probably my fault, lack of specificity).  I also flew virus sw 100s that were owned by others long before I got mine (by nearly 2 years in fact), and that might have led to statements by me that were misleading.  Rotax will not talk about alternate fuels, because they worry they'd become liable for problems that might occur.  For hydrogen, the ECU might be a killer, unless I decompile the code and re-write it, which I don't have time for.  For that purpose I'd be better off with a regular old-style engine.  Apparently a lot of people have had good results with hydrogen in modestly tweaked Honda engines.  Like I said, I'm paying big time for being stupid about chemistry.  Most likely my plane will go the way of the doodoo bird if gasoline becomes unavailable.  That is, unless some brilliant chemist decides to trade a solution for a comfortable place to live once the world collapses.  Frankly, if I was that worried about this problem, I'd take my little remaining gold and convert that into a big tank full of gasoline.  Fortunately, where I am, I can get as much non-ethanol gasoline as I want, and at a pretty good price too.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 04:44 | 3341395 Element
Element's picture

 

 

"To be independent is to be able to survive, not have every possible luxury currently available."

Then I must be independent then. Frankly I don't care if you think you're independent or not, that's your business. I just don't like getting berated about it when its a practical fantasy for everyone I know who lives anything like a 'techie' lifestyle. Seems to me to be just a bunch of survivalists completely fooling themselves with high-minded rhetoric. Whatever.

--

The other option is the all-electric, it may not ultimately be sustainable, due battery life plus crappy range and slow recharge, but it would be a workable alternative, that lasts much longer when the shish hits the fan.

Re hydrogen, I can't see it working with your fuel injectors, or fuel rail.

BTW, how many liters does your extended range wing tank verion hold and how is it configured? Is it just double the standard capacity per wing? How much is recoverable?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 07:00 | 3341584 honestann
honestann's picture

When I said "to be independent is to be able to survive, not have every possible luxury currently available", I meant able to survive without outside help.

Yes, maybe you are independent.  I hope you are.  What matters is that you CAN take care of your self, not that you adopt some sort of religious-like practice of abstaining from outside conveniences.  The fact is, doing that would be less efficient in the years before the SHTF, and therefore limit your efforts to become even more self-sufficient (independent).

I understand what you mean about the electric.  And pipistrel is pretty much on the forefront of electric aircraft too.  Unfortunately, I want to be able to fly all the way across the south pacific ocean, which requires 4000km non-stop hops (plus 10% safety reserve).  That's just not close to being possible with electric yet.  I wish it was!

Yes, hydrogen doesn't work unless I swap out my engine and do a lot of experimentation to assure long-term reliability.  I don't have time for that.  Like I said, this may be one of those cases when this high-tech freak should take the lowest-tech approach, namely stockpile a huge quantity of gasoline while I can (plus any gizmos necessary to "refresh it" after years of sitting idle in the storage tanks, if that's necessary).

Yes, just over double the standard "long range tanks".  I don't think they even install the smaller old-style "regular tanks" any more.  I also have additional aftermarket fuel blatters to hold an additional 100 liters inside the cabin, but hope I never need them.  My understanding is the "extended range" tanks are simply extra tanks outboard of the normal "long range tanks".  It costs an obscene amount for the "extended range tanks"; supposedly they need to do a whole lot of fancy wing modifications to assure full strength and full performance when fully loaded with fuel and at maximum + and - G forces.  Since the extra tanklets are outboard of the usual ones, I guess that makes sense, but all that work sure hurt my wallet (nearly 10 ounces of gold).  But they are a lot more convenient than storing an extra 100 liters somewhere in the cabin, that's for sure.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 12:56 | 3342978 Element
Element's picture

Yes, a pity electric is not quite performing range-wise, yet (but it's a lot better than it was). I'm actually well aware of what Pipestrel have been doing over the last few years. I'm a bit of an electric fan ... ok, that didn't come out right. :D

The current electric engines make enormous torque for small size and weight, so accelerate very rapidly, much better than petrol engines (and would maybe allow even a 10m shorter take off roll in your virus possible due to that torque curve alone). Plus the electric engines are enormously more reliable than an internal combustion motor, have fewer losses, and almost zero maintenance or lubrication needs. Perfect! (I've seen a Toyota Prius in Sydney that did 1.6 million km on the same two front-wheel-drive electric engines!)

What's really needed is a room-temp super conducting battery, that can store enough energy to also keep its own thermal properties stable. (i.e. integrated refrigeration cooling when on the ground etc, air-cooled at altitude)

If you could combine a thermal source (radioactive maybe? gas-laser?) with a high efficiency thermoelectric material, combined with super-conduction battery and cables ... then you're off to the races! Inefficient solar panels are great, but they don't work at night, unless using inefficent batteries. Whereas thermoelectric can potentially work 24-7 and needs just an inverter. Also, consider a solid-state ion drive (like what's already used to maneuver satellites, but more powerful) on a light aircraft for auxiliary thrust for long range cruising. That would really be something. Such tech would completely transform the fortunes of humanity and get us away from the geopolitics of current energy resources. Then the sort of off-world travels you crave would be a prosaic option, rather than an extreme dream.

If I were King for a day: The money spent on Higgs boson collider research and global-warming boondoggles would be immediately curtailed, and the money redirected towards super-conduction and battery research. Which would produce far better outcomes than all the current greenie-hopey new-age-energy poop-athon that idiots keep rabbiting-on about, currently. 

Think about this, if the criminal idiots at the FED could spare $23 trillion in fiat creation, as illicit loans to 'effin CBs, in SEPT-OCT 2008, then I'm pretty sure they could have spared a trillion to ensure humanity could move ahead in those crucial technical areas as well. But as always in a centralized criminal finance and extreme militarism system, you can forget about doing the sane, proportional or intelligent things with resources, even when supposed 'unlimited' fiat printing is available. Another good reason to eliminate the FED (probably the best one in fact), and all such structural and financial resource misallocators. We could easily do so much better than that. Unfortunately all the subsequent global powers have learned all these same bad-habits, and have aped the intrinsic resource misallocation structural errors of the 'superpower' paradigm.

Finance is such a toxic self-limiting wasteful crock, but the brain-washed belief and perception of the masses is just the opposite.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 23:56 | 3334489 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

I basically agree, Element.

Most of human history was operating some slavery system, and most people adapted to survive as slaves. Thus, there was a large genetic component to the "sheeple." However, it was more complicated than that. For instance, at least one quarter of the so-called Black People in the USA are genetically White People, since the masters of the American slaves made so many of them pregnant. Thus, many of the Black People in the USA are genetically all mixed up with their masters' genetics.

Human ecology is a bit like the rabbits interbreeding with the foxes. They are, after all, still one species. There are both cultural and genetic things interacting in hypercomplicated ways. The big evolutionary punctuations are yet to come?

Unfortunately, I am mostly forced to agree with honestann ... although I am too incompetent to think of anything more practical to do, since I keep on clinging to irrational hopes.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 12:05 | 3335163 Element
Element's picture

There's something in that, we have under-rated or not recognized the selection-effect of the process of Govt domination. What I can say from experience is there are marked behavioral differences between full-blood aboriginals and half-cast and quarter cast aboriginals. They generally all claim to be aboriginal (mostly due to easier access to generous Govt support, which they access much easier, than if identifying as a European). Though quarter casts always reject the 'whitey' majority part of their background, they cling to this identification as an aboriginal. An 'Aboriginal' recently became a member of parliament and the guy looks like he's about 1/16th 'aboriginal'. Basically a white dude with a great sun tan. So given he's apparently 15/16th white, why exactly is anyone calling him 'aboriginal'? He's almost as Aboriginal as he's a Martian.

For most of colonial history the European view was that the only hope for Aboriginals was inter-breeding with Europeans to improve behavior, hygiene, intelligence, education, acceptance and the capacity to survive in a technological world. Essentially that view implied that Aboriginal women who failed to do so would damn their children to being unable to cope or to thrive, and would thus be eliminated within a few generations. And mostly that's what happened, and it is still playing out. Full-blood aboriginals, despite all the racial integration policy and progressive sympathies are basically despised and disregarded. And its not just the whitey, but Asians, Arabs, Indian/Pakis, and African communities doing it. Curiously full-blood Kenyan/Ethiopian/Somalis really hate the shit out of full-blood aboriginals, as do the darker-skinned South Asians and Melanesians. This animosity is often because the full-blood aboriginals see them as their most direct competition, and tend to literally vocally berate, threaten and insult them in public and tell them to get the hell out of their country.

I've personally seen this several times and have a Indian friend who told me he'd been threatened by a group of Aboriginals that had told him this is our country, our land, he had no right to be in it without their permission and if he didn't get out they would kill him. He also said they were very drunk and smelled like faeces. Which is another common feature of why they're universally disliked. They freaking stink to high heaven, and demonstrate an abysmal attitude to everyone, and yet still demand to be respected. Naturally they aren't respected at all due to this. And when they are not respected they call everyone a racist.

Which frankly, and understandably, becomes the more or less practical reality, and is why there's little chance this is ever going to stop no matter the laws or the legislative program and support of the State. Thus full-blood aboriginals do indeed do much worse than any other group within Australia, they have by far the worst health, not because of whitey per-sec but because they do not look after themselves. And they live the shortest and least materially successful as well as most chaotic lives, and generally do much worse on average, than the mixed-blood 'aboriginal' subset.

Which shows in practical terms that both breading and cultural selection pressures matter when it comes to fitting into the modern conformist mould and attaining material success. The higher the capacity to conform and do whatever the lying statist system wants or orders, the least resistant and problematic you are to those orders, the better your material, cultural and breading success is likely to be.

That is implicitly a eugenic selection-pressure for ever greater sheep-like conformity and full-blood aboriginals naturally can't and don't conform.

However it's also not unreasonable to expect that if the statist system fell apart overnight say from a Nuclear EMP, that it would then be the full-blood Aboriginals who could be better survivors over time in the resulting very marginal conditions. and then the most conforming to state policy would be the least capable of surviving.

Curiously full-blood aboriginals and technologically primitive indigenous people could be humanity's best chance for surviving longer-term as the wheels come off the globalist enterprise. That alone is a fairly good reason to ensure they can continue to live how they wish on their own land as free as possible of Statist interlopers.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 01:36 | 3331730 petolo
petolo's picture

I prefer not to be governed at this time. Thank You.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 02:21 | 3331753 Brit_Abroad
Brit_Abroad's picture

+1000

Thank you Ann.

You have nicely put into words that what I have been feeling all these years

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:40 | 3331156 I am more equal...
I am more equal than others's picture

It will work as good as Bernake works.  Hey, let's do more.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:41 | 3331159 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

Don't we have a centrally planned financial system anyway?  Where would we be without continuous Fed intervention?  Bernanke makes Stalin look so dated.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 19:41 | 3331161 Bingfa
Bingfa's picture

Obama beating the war drums again....

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/03/14/obama-says-iran-a-year-away-fr...

Better start a war before one breaks out at home

                One man march to destroy America....

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:06 | 3331222 Poor Grogman
Poor Grogman's picture

So deterrence and the threat of MAD was Enough to keep the USSR in line all those years.

But now we are told we will have to use pre emptive strikes to keep a low level regional power in line?

Can someone explain this to me as I am not seeing something obvious here?

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:26 | 3331270 Bingfa
Bingfa's picture

It's the Obama doctrine...

When absolutely EVERYTHING else makes sense and you need total confusion....

 

 

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:28 | 3331417 pods
pods's picture

Pretty easy to explain.  There needs to be more debt, and wars are the tried and true method of increasing debt.

pods

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:45 | 3331325 rhinoblitzing
rhinoblitzing's picture

So Obama says that Iran is still a year away from getting the bomb...

Let's break this down a bit.

The Manhattan project took the US 4 years to develop and test the world's 1st nuclear weaopn in the tightest of secrecy.

Today - the only thing neccessary are the components, readily available, and consider...

- It is rumored  that the USSR's arsenal is reported to have been compromised and suitcase bombs long missing.

- A few weeks after India detonated a nuke, Pakistan surprised the world with their own bomb.

- North Korea has tested several already, with Iranian observers...

- Does anyone doubt that Iran does not already have, or can quickly assemble or aquire a nuke?

- On a more serious note (if that's possible) Read the headlines about what's happening this very minute in Lebanon (40,00 Soviet marines landing) Syria (Chemical weapons in the hands of Hezbollah) Iran has a undeterred supply route to the Lebanese coast. West Bank infiltrated with every kind of threat. Over 200,000 missiles pointed at Israel.

And... Obama is going to Israel for a 3 day tour? To quote your article link - to help secure a more "Lasting Solution". Some on the ZH site might cheer this - But do those who say "bring it on" really know what's coming, all your gold won;t do you squat!

As for Obama stating Iran is a year away - He lies again - Impeach Him Now!

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:28 | 3331419 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Iran has been "one year away from THE bomb" For two decades. The narrative is getting thin, yet so many still subscribe. Which of the following is more likely to happen within the next year........

1) an evil Iranian terrorist drops a dirty nuke in your city

                                   OR

2) an American government employee kicks down your door at 1 am to ransack your house and consfiscate your shit for some kind of tax violation........

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 20:55 | 3331344 Iocosus
Iocosus's picture

Netanyahoo has been saying that for 20 years.

Thu, 03/14/2013 - 21:29 | 3331421 pods
pods's picture

Evidently there are none of those "Free beer tomorrow" signs in the pubs in Israel.

pods

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