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Is Student Loan Debt Forgiveness A Good Idea?

Tyler Durden's picture


The short answer, despite the pleadings of an over-stuffed body of ex-students facing inexorable debt loads, is "no". However, as Professor Daniel Lin notes in this brief clip, debt forgiveness does not resolve the underlying causes of rising student debt, and therefore cannot prevent future debt problems. Instead of debt forgiveness, he suggests making student loans like other types of loans: dischargeable in bankruptcy. This places the burden on lenders to ensure that students are not taking on more debt than they can handle. While it would lead to a reduction in the amount of loan dollars awarded and theoretically increase interest rates (as 'risk' is priced in from the current no collateral, no underwriting, no credit check idiocy currently), these are good things - naturally incentivizing borrowers to be more careful right now, and in the future, which puts pressure on colleges and universities to control their costs.




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Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:41 | 3333307 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Bankruptcy is not forgiveness.  Up with bankruptcy.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:42 | 3333310 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

Well someones gotta take the hit, no?

Oh yeah, its me and you (taxpayers)

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:46 | 3333316 flacon
flacon's picture

John Kerry walks in to a bar. The bartender asks: "Why the long face?"

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:49 | 3333326 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

That's almost as good as Tyler's joke about holding lenders accountable.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:59 | 3333360 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

The best argument for discharge is quite simple.

Every day the courts wipe out millions of dollars in debt for back taxes, real estate loans, and medical expenses directly or indirectly picked up by the taxpayers.

Why should former college students, in a radically different economy than anyone expected, be uniquely sentenced to debt slavery for life?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:07 | 3333517 bobola
bobola's picture

There are alternatives to an expensive college education;

College work programs. Small schools such as Berea College (Kentucky) and Deep Springs College (California). At Berea, students work campus jobs to cover all of their tuition expenses, which end up adding up to $100,000 for all four years.

University of the People. Founded in 2009, this is the world's first tuition-free online academic institution. UoPeople offers Associate and Bachelor degree programs in Business Administration and Computer Science. They have already partnered with leading companies (such as HP) and schools (such as Yale). As of today, students from more than 130 countries have been accepted.

UnCollege. This company was founded in 2010 by Dale Stephens, who is a Thiel Fellow and elementary school dropout. UnCollege provides resources that assist students with designing their own educational paths and feature forums, workshops and more.

I took a different path as well. Right after high school I enrolled in a technical college owned and funded by a large mid-western city.  Paid no tuition because I was less that 21 years old.  Paid for books, meals and my transport there.  Studied computer electronics.  Years later I decided to get a Microsoft MCSE certification.  Quickly discovered that Barnes & Noble and Borders have the very expensive study books on their shelves, and didn't mind that I 'borrowed' them for the duration.  Eventually passed the series of MCSE tests and spent very little.  The cert has paid off in spades.

There are just have to seek them creative.... 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 23:33 | 3334449 Half_A_Billion_...
Half_A_Billion_Hollow_Points's picture

David Collum has a market-driven proposal that's truly interesting.  Collages could package the loans and sell to investors.  The loans would be bound by something like 10% or so of the student's income in say, 7 years.  While everyone would be buying Stanford Computer Science grads, the univ of memphis phds in comparative 17th century lesbian belgium literature would be entirely out of the loop.


Market-driven, no bailouts, no handouts, no central planning and no "final solution" from gov't.  

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 00:22 | 3334517 Perseid.Rocks
Perseid.Rocks's picture

Oh come on where's the incentive even going to college if you can't make out like a bandit? We're going to lose our world competitive edge, our rockstar graduates, the  top sellers and global imperialist rapists, if we don't reward them. :)


Sat, 03/16/2013 - 01:18 | 3334585 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Professor Lin, money **is** debt.

The money lender cartel is running everything through the natural progression of Debt Money Tyranny

See linked PDF for a graphic display of how Debt Money Tyranny systematically asset strips society and benefits what Eisenhower called "the power of money" and said was "gravely to be regarded."  Indeed.

How about you teach people about the fraud trhat is debt money?  How about exposing the con artists running this fraud on society?

When the bankster version of "widgets" are loans and the banksters have seized control of the government, of course every solution is going to be more bankster "widgets," aka loans.

Remember what Napoleon understood, the hand that gives is greater than the hand that receives, therefore, the banksters are superior to the government operatives the banksters finance and promote into office.

We need to go to the root of the problem - and that's debt based money and the criminal international banking cartel that runs it almost worldwide (they have to bomb a few more Muslim countries into submission and they will have the whole world).

Also, please share "How to be aCrook" with your students and your Youtube audience:

How To Be A Crook

Speaking of crooks, how about exposing the Federal Reserve's 30 year criminal campaign to break Section 2A of the Federal Reserve Act?

Weapons of Mass Debt

Yes, the student loan situation needs to be fixed, but the banksters won't allow themselves to be damaged so long as they are the Grand Chessmaster and governments are simply another piece on their Grand Chess Board.

"If all the bank loans were paid, no one could have a bank deposit, and there would not be a dollar of coin or currency in circulation. This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial Banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in
circulation, cash or credit. If the Banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is. It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon."
~Robert Hemphill
Credit Manager of Federal Reserve Bank, Atlanta, Ga.
Source: In the foreword to a book by Irving Fisher, entitled 100% Money (1935)

"The youth who can solve the [Debt Money Tyranny] money question will do more for the world than all the professional soldiers of history."
~Henry Ford, Sr.


Sat, 03/16/2013 - 09:23 | 3334928 BlueCheeseBandit
BlueCheeseBandit's picture

Yes, those freeloading college grads shouldn't have their debt forgiven. That would be using government to solve their problems. They should have done the responsible thing and use a free government training program.

It's not freeloading if government pays on the front end instead of the back end.

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 04:25 | 3335653 EscapingProgress
EscapingProgress's picture

If a bailout is good enough for Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein then a bailout is good enough for me too. Uncle Sam should issue $1 trillion in new bonds to pay off all student debt tomorrow because deficits don't matter (see #NYTimeskrugman), and then all Bernanke has to do is type a few more 0s into the Fed system.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 02:41 | 3334646 q99x2
q99x2's picture

State taxes maybe but Federal Taxes are combined by Central Banksters around the world with all nations wherein their tentacles reach. Federal Taxes are global taxes and not related directly to any perticular nation. That is one main reason the globalists are called globalists. So it is not correct to say that student loan debt forgiveness is related to Federal Taxes. It is more related to central planner's objectives. The financial system does not work like people are led to believe it does.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 13:21 | 3335446 Darkdoc
Darkdoc's picture

Funny thing about debt foregiveness, is that only one side gets forgiven, but one side still has to pay.  Or has already paid.

If I loan you money, and the court forgives the debt, then I am the one who has to pay.  Debt is always paid, no matter what any court says, or any sad faced student with a worthless degree pleads.  Payment forgiveness is another BIG LIE, and I see you've bought it all.  Idiot.

The best game in town is how to get the taxpayers and populace as a whole to pay.  Tell your kids, and grandkids, all about how their taxes and lifestyles will be impacted by the debt shifted to them.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:01 | 3333367 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

What Jesus would do?

1.Get maximum loan

2. Use half of it for good education

3. buy Gold with half of the loan

4. In  two years time sell the gold and pay off all student loan.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 02:43 | 3334650 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Oh boy I get an "A" in christianity.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:18 | 3333401 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

It's a shame you can't demand your money back, especially after you graduate and can't find a job in the corporate promised land.

With this economy, the best you can do is become a professional student.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:47 | 3333487 Lore
Lore's picture

You make a good point. There are three paradigms here that need to be broken:

1. That debt is necessary for schooling

2. That schooling is prerequisite for career success

3. "No fail" courses and degrees

Suggestion 1.  Never mind student debt. Say no to debt. Instead, target achievers with scholarships at high school graduation. 

Suggestion 2.  Work for a few years after high school. Raise some money and get a clear idea of what you want in life BEFORE you go to school.

Suggestion 3.  Incentivise teaching. right now, professors grade too generously because they want to maintain steady enrollment. (A hard grading prof means fewer students taking courses.) Turn that around with a Pay for Performance program that rewards the best teachers.

Suggestion 4. Shut down a lot of departments and even whole campuses that are really nothing more than a mill for loans and grants.

It would be a start...

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:59 | 3333518 nufio
nufio's picture

if student loans can be discharged in bankruptcy, and the govt stops guaranteeing them then immediately these loans will cease to exist as lenders arent stupid. Once the opportunity to get a lifelong debt slave is lost the banks will stop making these loans. This will result in universities shuttering 90 % of their departments which offer degrees in basket weaving. 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:09 | 3333543 TempFlashback
TempFlashback's picture

And tuition will drop overnight.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 14:05 | 3335540 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

yes, to a value which is equal to the 'true' value of the said education....

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:20 | 3333413 Prison Justice
Prison Justice's picture

Alternate:  John Kerry walks in to a bar.  The bartender says: "Get the fuck out of here."

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:38 | 3333459 flacon
flacon's picture

Bartender says: "Everyone needs beer goggles", and orders infinite rounds for all the customers who can't stand his cocky long face."

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:53 | 3333508 Leto II
Leto II's picture


How do you get a baby into a bowl?

A blender.

How do you get it out?


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:09 | 3333792 Hughing
Hughing's picture

Hey reds, what's the problem? Not gluten free?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:50 | 3333330 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Of course tax payers back them. No bank is stupid enough to do that.

There should be an underwriting process and risk assessment prior lending a teen 6 figures of debt. But there won't be. Education is priceless. Lol.

I do think bankruptcy should be allowed. That way right out of school when these people can't find any work they can flush out that debt and start new.

Hey nowadays you get a mortgage and car loan a couple years after filing.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:50 | 3333496 Matt
Matt's picture

I think you would need both loan forgiveness for current students, plus bankruptcy eligibility for future loans, plus some sort of transition as post-secondary institutions adapt to changes in tuition levels that would result from enabling bankruptcy dischargability of student loans.

If you just suddenly made student loans dischargable in bankruptcy, the government would just have to bail out the bankers. Might as well bail out the current indebted students directly through forgiveness (i.e. the government borrowing the money and paying off the loans for students) then having the students all have destroyed credit, and then the government borrowing the money anyways to bail out the bankers.

You can talk all you want about what is right or ideal, but in reality, there is no way they can allow a sudden massive default on $1 trillion plus of loans.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:32 | 3333446 epwpixieq-1
epwpixieq-1's picture

when in foreclosure they reposes the house ( that actually is not yours. but theirs ).

When in standard bankruptcy, they take whatever they can.

When in student loan bankruptcy, what are they going to take the (worthless) diploma?

Maybe they should ( it is another question what the lenders will do with it), and the students will be left with the gained "knowledge" equally worthless ( in the real world ), in most cases.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:54 | 3333505 Matt
Matt's picture

Actually, the knowledge without the diploma is still useful; there are some very successful people who stopped taking courses and started auditing them instead, to gain the knowledge without the piece of paper. I think Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg both did, for example. Maybe Einstein, too.


EDIT: the diploma is what you get if you want to be an employee. The knowledge without the paperwork is fine if you want to run your own show.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:04 | 3333635 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Good Idea!

Take the diplomas, chop into tranches and sell them to the Chinese.

They'll buy anything.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:42 | 3333309 machineh
machineh's picture

Usgov: the world's harshest kneecapping usurer.

Once Usgov took over, student loans became just like debt to the IRS -- bankruptcy won't help you.

Work till you die, or they'll garnish your Social Security. Nice guys, huh ...

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:53 | 3333346 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

It's slavery, by any other name, ironically (and cruelly) disguised as "the way up" in life.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:45 | 3333313 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Anything that causes pain to the Ivory Towers is Fuckin A in my book. 

Starve those worthless do nothings, suffocate them in their own goddamn echo chambers.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:49 | 3333329 Lost My Shorts
Lost My Shorts's picture

The ivory towers will be fine.  It's Phoenix and Kaplan whose gravy train is threatened.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:56 | 3333335 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Actually, the Ivory Towers should welcome it.  Universities attended by freely (free as in non-indentured) financed scholars build society from within, they do not simply occupy deskspace according to a centrally planned scheme.  They are not tube-shaped conduits channeling the manifold, synchronized flows of debt-laundry (or Tyler's "Fed effluence").  They are living, thinking things.

I know, it's a lot to ask.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:45 | 3333315 maskone909
maskone909's picture

fuck yeah i owe 50K still.  where the fuck is MY BAILOUT?  with the money they have given to these bastards....   every citizen could have paid down all debts, bought a house, and still have leftovers.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:52 | 3333334 Aegelis
Aegelis's picture

I'm in the same boat, 60k here and it's been over ten years.  Got my 'dream job' but found out it pays half as much as they advertised in high school.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:02 | 3333372 Major Major Major
Major Major Major's picture

Paid mine off the first year out of uni.  Guess I shoudn't have... or maybe it's time to take out some new ones in pursuit of an MBA, law degree or even a PHD.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:38 | 3333418 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I am sorry that you owe 50k.  But I do NOT pity you for your debt and others like you, and I'll tell you why:

You are trolling on this site without even understanding fiat-currency and FRB, and then have the gall to bitch about their "debt".

If you understood anything about fiat-currency and FRB, you'd realize that it costs the bank nothing to create your loan out of thin air (well, except for the time to handle your file and hit CTRL-P on their PC). It's a "debt" note like ANY other, and should be treated as any other debt:  subject to default.  If the banks don't like the odds of their 'client' (victim) not living up to their full debt potential ("full pumptitude", as Arnold might say), then that's their problem.  If a student did not have to pay this paper burden, they could spend more of their net income (once they have a job) on things that require material + labor as inputs to get outputs called 'things'.  Instead of lining Jamie Dimon's pocket.

But you, and other mental midgets and serfs like you, seem to begrudge those who didn't so much as "get the better" of the banksters, but managed to not let the banksters get "all" of them.  You -- you servile & over-programmed twit -- would rather turn your anger on your cohorts, rather than at the game masters.  In classic Stockholm Syndrome fashion.  For all these reasons, I do not pity you and others like you: Prisoners by choice!

BTW, I paid off my student loan debt years ago, but do NOT begrudge anyone who was devious enough to outwit the FRB vampires.  'Good for them', is all I can say.

Case closed.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:38 | 3333466 Confused
Confused's picture

Come down off your soap box. Some people weren't born all knowing. They need to learn through experience.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:40 | 3333474 maskone909
maskone909's picture

you come off as an arrogant prick who is too spoiled to see that you live in a bubble. prob born with silverspoon in mouth. would love to meet ya in a dark ally.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:26 | 3333577 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

There's a clever response!  Do you actually have an informed and intellectual point to make, are you emotionally too worked up, and need to swing your Neanderthal club?

Whatever gave anyone the idea that I was born 'privileged'?  I'm an average guy who made something of himself -- because I had a brain, vision and drive, and the courage to see the world.  On my nickel, not on daddy's or the DOD's (taxpayers') nickel.

And in the time that you wrote your response, you could have Googled and learned about FRB.  Fume, vent or threaten all you want, but if you don't know even that, then you either don't belong on ZH, or you need to shut your uninformed trap until you do. 

Sorry to be so crass, but you asked for it. Welcome to the Fight Club.  BTW, what's your dan?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:49 | 3333612 de3de8
de3de8's picture

I say screw anyone who was too stupid to do the feasibility/analysis up front. Now you want out easy just like everyone else and on the backs of those who play by the rules. You say f--k the rules, I say f-- k you.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 05:25 | 3334762 YC2
YC2's picture

Who are you imagining that you are passing judgement on? You don't know him, and judging an entire generation as if you did makes you a hypocrite and moron

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:35 | 3333671 Ballin D
Ballin D's picture

You are acting just as emotional as that guy. Yes there are a lot of kids in student debt that should have never gone to school. Yes, many have worthless degrees. Yes, looking backwards that probably wasnt the smartest idea. I was in the last graduating class in June 2012 and when I applied for schools we hadn't even entered 'the crisis' yet. Nobody knew what was around the corner. The problem is that not even the best and brightest (outside of a few individuals who were viewed as crazies) saw this happening ahead of time but now everybody thinks it was obvious. Hindsight bias is a bitch.

Even today, if a highschooler asks an adult for advice, theyll say 'go to university'. The people you look up to and go to for advice all push it on you and tell you that you will fail at life if you dont get that sheet of paper.

Im not saying that we should automatically bail everyone out but you should know that the job market for recent grads is way more fucked than the news makes it sound. There are many kids who worked harder than you and didnt make stupid decisions who are probably going to be left behind. If we interfere we create moral hazard that will likely exacerbate the problem, if we don't, kids get fucked because their parents' and grandparents' poor decisions.

You talk like you broke the barrier a few decades ago in a debt fueled economy and havent taken the time to examine the problem closely because it doesnt affect you anymore. Your generation isnt any better or worse than the one before it and the one after it. Take the time to look around you instead of making a bullshit excuse so you dont have to think about things for yourself.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:59 | 3333760 de3de8
de3de8's picture

Glad you think you know so much about me when you know f--k I said, made your own bed, sleep in it.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:58 | 3333761 de3de8
de3de8's picture

Glad you think you know so much about me when you know f--k I said, made your own bed, sleep in it.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:08 | 3333787 myptofvu
myptofvu's picture

And who did you vote for? Students bitched about not being able to find a job out of college and a lot of them had to go back to school just to delay loan repay, but when given a choice between the SuperBowl MVP of job creation and the Godzilla of job destruction they chose the later. Hard to find sympathy for them.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:06 | 3333944 Ballin D
Ballin D's picture

You think this is a question of who is president? Protip: even if one had the knowledge and experience to actually help, his policy probably would have been near-identical to the other's. They're keeping the sheep busy with the bipartisan noise and youre falling for it.

Since it matters so much to you, I supported the same guy you do. I saved time by agreeing not to vote with someone who was voting a straight ticket the other way for the same effect without having to wait in line. This also gave third party candidates a one vote leg up. Not that any of this made a difference.

By the way, I found a job and I dont have student debt.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:30 | 3334026 akarc
akarc's picture

You think this is a question of who is president? Protip: even if one had the knowledge and experience to actually help, his policy probably would have been near-identical to the other's. They're keeping the sheep busy with the bipartisan noise and youre falling for it.


My apologies for any down votes you may get for my agreement.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:53 | 3333507 goBackToSleep
goBackToSleep's picture

Extracted their dollars with a degree in a high demand field, bucking the 50% placement rate and used their fiat to get silver while only being charged a 6% rate on margin. Does this mean I did good with the business portion of my degree? Total of 70k for my bachelors and Masters. I'll let my PM's beat the interest down and some of the principle too! And why does that make one EVIL for using their tools of mass enslavement against them? You can't climb the ladder without knowing at least a little bit about finance boys and girls.


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:03 | 3333530 maskone909
maskone909's picture

wanting a bailout for my student debt is like banks wanting bailouts for there actions. i get it.

but when the only way to get ahead is to finance a college degree- and suddenly there is no jobs available..... now im stuck with a bill- and this somehow makes me equivalent to dimon and blankfein?!?! fuck that shit

apples to oranges my friends.

go study FRB?!?! yeah i cant afford a place to sleep better brush up on fractional res banking 101-- fuckin assholes

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:30 | 3333697 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

Your a tool you heartless geek. Phaser and communicator? That says it all! 

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 01:30 | 3334599 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

How to be a Crook is an excellent 10,000 foot summary view of the Federal Reserve debt money fraud:

How to be a Crook

Brilliant - they con and scam society through fraud and the victims bark at each other about not paying back the fraud.

For a detailed view of how Debt Money Tyranny works...

Educate those you know to prevent future victims.

BTW, the reason the bankster offloaded the student loan debt onto the government and told their puppets to make the debt non dischargeable is because they already knew they would offshore 10 million jobs, and counting, to slave labor China so the graduates wouldn't have jobs to pay back the loans en masse.

They straight punked Americans again.

Oh, and guess WHO owns the collection agencies that get mad bonuses for churning on behalf of the bankster controlled government?

Full spectrum dominannce, debt serfs!!!

They think we are ignorant b*es.

I hope to see the day we prove their opinion wrong.

Anyone who thinks these people are stupid is a combination of arrogant and ignorant - and neither of those traits are helpful in this end game to control America and the world.

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. The one aim of these financiers is world control by the creation of inextinguishable debt.”
~Henry Ford

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:33 | 3333452 troublesum
troublesum's picture

Wont matter... the inflation caused by this would just cuase you to have borrow the money again to buy food... your screwed ether way...

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:46 | 3333317 Smuckers
Smuckers's picture

I guess so long as you also tie it to revoking the degree, it makes sense. 
Since that is what the money bought (like a car, a house, etc) - then why not "repossess" the degree if they claim bankruptcy.


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:00 | 3333362 akarc
akarc's picture

amen! My wife got a student loan. She paid it off. Why? because she signed on the dotted line and figured she borrowed it, she should pay it back. GO FIgure!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:06 | 3333382 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

There is no moral obligation to pay anything back. Loans are investments for the issuer and there is risk. If the borrower can not pay it back due to income or lack of income, there is zero obligation morally to pay that back. It should be wiped off as a loss.

You're fortunate that she has the means to pay it back. Many out there do not.

Yes failing to pay back a loan hurts credit and in student loans you can't discharge them,

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:31 | 3333447 akarc
akarc's picture

"There is no moral obligation to pay anything back."

Thats intellectual masturbation. The type taught in a college philosophy class. Situational morals and principals. As long as the situation benefits me!  It exuses the current societal meme, we can fuck anything up, the taxpayer will pay for it.

INmy world your word means something. I have had to tell people I can not pay you back this moment but I will get you paid back. It is MY debt. And in the streets I ride you pay your debts or you freaking pay!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:00 | 3333525 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

You are probably not even aware that FHA is making loans to people who defaulted just two years ago because they consider them a good credit risk now that they don't have debt and realize the bubble was not really self evident. So says a Deputy Director testifying some weeks ago to a congressional committee. 

How do you justify that moral hazard akarc.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:35 | 3333589 akarc
akarc's picture

I do not justify it. For years I have been saying that the banks and the government never quit playing the games they were playing, have always played and will continue to play. That the primary reason they are able to do what they do is because "WE THE PEOPLE" allow it. We allow it because despite our bitching about it we have enjoyed our own "situational benefits". We were busy getting ours and if it meant being part of a corrupt system, oh well!

While the government was and has been detroying constitutional rights and bashing protestors in the head a great number said well thats cool Im still getting mine.

The chickens are coming home to roost. If they shit on your head don't complain. We all supported and still support it!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:21 | 3333663 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

Your a retard. The Citizens United SCOTUS decision and the Koch Brothers makes sure "WE THE PEOPLE" will NEVER have any control over this fascist nightmare you pretend is a democracy.

 '"the government was and has been detroying constitutional rights and bashing protestors in the head"

The gov't gets away w/ it because corporations are people and those people are sure to usurp our political process my giving 100 billion dollars to install the leader of their choose. Just ask, that ass clown, Karl Rove. We live under a fascist military regime and have been since "w" was installed by the SCOTUS. This is a fact.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:06 | 3333773 akarc
akarc's picture

I'll obviously have to take that as a compliment as it demonstrates you have no idea where I stand on a damn thing. 

1. I never refer to our system of government as a Democracy. For years I have called it a kleptocracy run by a government/wall street alliance.

2. I suspect I was posting about the Koch/cock brothers and the farce called the tea party before you knew who they were (please note the word suspect as I do not know that to be fact).

3. Fact is so many people have been focused/divided by the conservative/liberal meme and pointing fingers at ghost enemies, i.e. illegal immigrants are the demise of the nation and the like, they sat with thumbs up their asses During Citizens United vs fec and continue to do so while every rights oppressing act you can imagine is passed.

4. None of this could have or can happen without the acquiescence and complicity of the American People.

The People who actually know me know I have street cred because they have seen me in the streets and taking on banks at my own cost and risk. Unfortunately I lost a lot on betting on Americans gave a shit.  So yes, in that respect I defer to you. I am retarded!   

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 21:33 | 3334189 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

1) Granted

2)Perhaps, but keep spreading the word regardless.

3)2012 will be my last voting experience. I, now, consider voting a tool for the man to track me.

4)I don't agree with your fourth point dude. I think most people are either poor, have kids, or both and don't have, or don't choose to commit, to the amount of time necessary to become informed. I have dealt w/ or to Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers etc. and most don't have the gene to appreciate this kind of hard research. They either can't or don't care , but I don't think most are acquiescence or complicity. I think most just don't care or are cagy and won't dissent to protect what they have. I can't say I blame them. 

I don't mean you disrespect and apologize for insulting you.

In my life experience every first word out of any authority's mouth is, usually, a lie. When you catch them in their lie they then make and excuse to cover and then admit to the truth you reveal. It happens all the time when I deal with my superiors.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:39 | 3333871 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

Corporations don't vote, but stupid people who like entitlements do.  We have an authoritarian government because the nitwits voted for it.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:55 | 3334096 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

You are truly that naive? You deny Obama was pre-programmed into the Diebold voting machines after the Bilderburger meeting in Chantilly Virginia last summer? We all know this, and every, election is a shame either due to technology and gerrymandering!

You deny the USA is, but, a satellite of the Israeli fascist, totalitarian state?

Corporations make sure every broken voting machine is located in a Democratic precinct. Or that all but one voting machine is broken in any Democratic precinct. Republican areas have concierge parking and voting takes minutes. When I lived across town, in the lower income area, half the machines where broken, there were lines around the block, and it took me 3 hours to vote. When I moved to a Republican precinct voting took minutes  I was hassled by the volunteers to show my drivers license. I showed them my voter registration and asked if they had a problem? They tried to tell me I would have to produce a state i.d. and I told them they were breaking the law, took some pictures of their faces, told them I was going to call the police if they wouldn't allow me to vote. They backed down, I voted, then went to city Hall to the registers office and lodged a formal complaint.

Ayn Rand is the worst writer on the planet. Boring, obvious and I was very disappointed with the lack of imagination of the writer. Charles Bukowski is ten times a better writer than that Russian cunt.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:55 | 3333511 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

My wife graduated first in her class from Peking University (free ride). Got recruited at a top university to get her masters and Phd (all a free ride of course) and she is not even a citizen or paid the first penny in taxes until she got her first position as a Doctor of Philosophy.

My parents pay taxes all my life then I do for ten years working after high school and have to pay for my education? And pay 3.5% on the priciple when the Jew bankers get it for 0.25%? How is that fair?

Why doesn't Uncle Sam give students a break and lend to them at the discount window rate?

It would certainly increase the tax base!!!!

Plus: All the money I AM NOT OUT SPENDING in the economy because I haver to pay back a loan and save for retirement!!!!!

Making debt slaves out of your population is not a good plan for economic growth.

Maybe they should just give you the education, but make it competitive? Maybe they should start posting EVERYONES grades publicly to encourage competition and drive sudents to achieve? Maybe everyone doesn't need to go to college? 

I wish I would have stuck to my pipefitting job I left to go back to school. I would be making more money than I do now and be in better shape. 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:45 | 3333605 akarc
akarc's picture

"Maybe they should just give you the education, but make it competitive? Maybe they should start posting EVERYONES grades publicly to encourage competition and drive sudents to achieve? Maybe everyone doesn't need to go to college?"

This I could agree with as long education was fairly distributed and earned and people were actually failed. Yes I know taxpayers would have to pay for it. But I suspect that the boost to the economy could justify it. 

The bankers may have to take a hit. But fuck em!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:24 | 3333679 carlnpa
carlnpa's picture

The kids with current Fed backed loans (Stafford subsidized and unsubsidized) loans are paying 6.8% by law.  This is all recent loans.

How about starting with a reduction in interest rates to 2-3% that is realistic in this environment instead of raping the kids.


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:35 | 3333859 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

If student loan rates matched the actual risk of default, rates would be a lot higher than 6.8%.  What you guys are arguing for really is an entitlement to free money from someone else.  Another sign of the "moral hazard" of unlimited money culture created by the Fed and a corrupt government.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 09:13 | 3334909 carlnpa
carlnpa's picture

And tuition rates would be alot lower.

The student loan problem is here and now.

I'm not saying default.

These loans should be at 1% as there is no possiblity of dismissal through bk at this time.

All future loans should be fully subject to bankruptcy dismissal.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:24 | 3333426 Aegelis
Aegelis's picture

Wouldn't work in my case, let them revoke my degree, I already have the job.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:46 | 3333319 Aegelis
Aegelis's picture

The only thing that is going to drive down college costs is competition.  If piece of paper A costs $60,000 and equivalent piece of paper B costs $7,000, which is a better purchase?  Explain your answer. 

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 01:19 | 3334586 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Currently, the competition amongst colleges is to see which one can garner the most US Govt subsidy munnies.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 09:20 | 3334925 carlnpa
carlnpa's picture

I believe making loans fully dismissable in bankruptcy would force down tuitions.

Lending money would be based on expected educational return, and harder to get.


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:47 | 3333320 khakuda
khakuda's picture

Way to go Uncle Sam.  Between the availability of government loans and the Fed's endless monetary easing, tuitions followed the path of least resistance for decades.  Students would have been better off if borrowing weren't allowed for college and the colleges would have had to control costs if they wanted to have any students.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:50 | 3333331 Walt D.
Walt D.'s picture

You can't get blood out of a stone.

Most students took on the loans with the assumption that when they graduated, they would be able to get a job and pay off the loan. Now, at least 25% can't get a job commensurate with their expectations before they went to college and took out the loan.

The problem is that once you have been out of work for 2 years, you degree essentially becomes worthless - you will never be able to pay off the loan unless you go back to school and update your skillset. 

You can't pay off the loan if you don't have a job.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:04 | 3333375 akarc
akarc's picture

False assumptions result in consequences. Maybe students should take a more active role in whats happening in the country and working to change instead of blaming someone else because they signed the contract. 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:11 | 3333392 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Spare us with the holier than thou crap.

TEENS have little idea how loans work and are just old enough to legally sign for a contract as an adult. They're also sold the idea that education no matter what they study is necessary to get my job.

This is predatory lending in its purest definition.

They can't figure out that in 4-8 years they will owe all this money back because they feel invincible and things will only go well for them.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:48 | 3333492 akarc
akarc's picture

Obvioiusly the product of a poor education system and parents subjected to same. Come on dude, you learn about debt as a kid. Unless you grew up isolated from the real world. 

Hows it work in your world, the teen knows he/she best pay their dealer "butt" fuck every buddy else. 

Oh I'm sorry I bought a house I can't afford. Jeez, please forgive me. I was told when I was born that everything in life was gonna work out the way they told me. Let me look, I think I got that guarantee somewhere!


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:21 | 3333562 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

"Obvioiusly" I am just a poorly educated nobody from ignorant parents.

I'm borrowing a page from the bankers play book: Take losses on poor investments.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:53 | 3333621 akarc
akarc's picture

We can all take a page from the bankers playbook. Fuck everybody!  It's that situational ethics gig again.  I despise the wall street/government alliance. But I can not deny fact. It is the way it is because "WE THE PEOPLE" allow it.

Kinda like a preacher jumping around from book to book in the bible taking everything out of context to prove a point.

You either buy into the system or you do not. Just don't say you despise Bernanke and then support him.


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:52 | 3333502 Walt D.
Walt D.'s picture

"TEENS have little idea how loans work and are just old enough to legally sign for a contract as an adult. "

They are not cosidered adult enough to buy a beer (or even a large soda if they live in New York).

Where is Nanny Bloomberg when you really need him?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:54 | 3333510 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

So, they are "victims"?  Gotta solution for you.  Don't make any student loans.  Problem solved.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:04 | 3333434 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

Not to mention the fraud and disinformation the University feeds you when you enter. Such as:

1) There are so many engineers slated to retire there will be more positions than graduates. (ha, ha, that's a good one. I've driven 100,000 miles in one year trying to stay employed.

2) The average starting salary in this area, w/ your degree, is $85,000. (wrong again). A few students got lucky but, those were pre-Lehman days. I was lucky to get $45,000/year out of college, now I make $62,500 so that was a pack of lies.

My principle went from 52k to 62k in 8 years because I didn't make enough and had to defer payments. I could never really find steady work until seven years had past after graduation. It has been tough.

If you bought any real estate before Lehman now you are really screwed since you can't really move to where the work is. I know fellow graduates driving thousands of miles a week to stay employed.

Their is one point the he didn't mention, or at least didn't really stress:

If you are paying $1,000 to pay off your student loan, what is left over to save for retirement? You really don't have an option. You can't have a savings acccount and be in default because they will come after your retirement savings. Then they will garnish your Social Security Benefits.

This is the Jew's final triumph over the goy. Require a college degree to get a job, make the goy borrow money to pay for degree, pull the rug on the economy to make the goy default, then make the taxpayers repay the principle and interest once the goy dies.

a $50,000 student loan becomes a $1,000,000 unfunded gov't liability over 50 years and the Jew who bought up your bad debt is hoping you default so they can wait for you to die to collect from the taxpayers as they throw you in a paupers grave. " Ovay! Sure you can just give us Treasury bonds for the bad debt so we can leverage them 1000 to one to keep our thing going."

The ultimate scheme. The Jews have out done themselves this time. We go and take pictures of the creeps going to Temple on Saturday so we know who to round up when our time comes again.

I just hope and pray the EU is stupid enough to give the Syrian Rebels Weapons to, first, over throw Assad, then turn on Israel and finish them off. I pray for Iran and Hamas to do the work of Elohim.



Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:04 | 3333532 Doctor Faustus
Doctor Faustus's picture

Still blaming others for the choices you make? Sad.


Experience is just another word for mistakes. We learn one way or the other.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 12:57 | 3335390 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

Still a complete, selfish, douche bag?

Apparently so! Some things will never change!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:09 | 3333544 akarc
akarc's picture

"This is the Jews final triumph over the goy. Require a college degree to get a job, make the goy borrow money to pay for degree, pull the rug on the economy to make the goy default, then make the taxpayers repay the principle and interest once the goy dies."

Well damn Bubba. Don't fergit the beeners that come over to pick tyer lettuce and be damned glad fer it. And ya didn't mention that damned ol muslim black man either (that surrounds himself with white wall streeters) either. 

You scare the fuck out of me and make me want to convert to Judiasm. Suspect that I should be happy in my role as an Irishman, you remember, the "white niggers". 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:05 | 3333638 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

The beeners are digging up the street outside the house for three month's, they don't speak a word of English, meanwhile the blacks that grew up here have 50% unemployment because the redneck operator likes working the beeners and refuse to hire blacks. 

All you have to do is change your name to Cohen and your get all the JAP girls trying to get at you. Since the religious line is passed by the mother at least you offspring can make the claim an get that Israeli passport. Just like half of Congress.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:28 | 3333692 akarc
akarc's picture

hmmmm I do l ike jap girls. But then I like black girls and hispanic girls too. Damn, decisions decisions.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 21:52 | 3334237 helping_friendl...
helping_friendly_book's picture

I hope you knew I meant Jewish American Princess (JAP) did.....right?

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 00:12 | 3334510 pashley1411
pashley1411's picture

You are assuming that the debt is collateral damage.   Its not, an indebted young person is the feature.   And, oh yea, a bloated higher education establishment.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:52 | 3333336 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Allow student loans to be included in bankruptcy. All debt is EXCEPT student loans which is bullshit.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:25 | 3333571 Steaming_Wookie_Doo
Steaming_Wookie_Doo's picture

Agreed. But I was rather dull in that I went to local/state colleges and paid as I went. And, admittedly, it's been a long time since I've been in a classroom, so I missed the big inflation.

I would add that student loans be set so that they're cutting the check directly to the university for the tuition (and possibly course materials). No money directly to these lunkheads, since many of them seem to have no skills in money mgmt. Yes, little Billy might have to get a P/T job to cover costs of iPhones, beer, etc.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:53 | 3333342 ziggy59
ziggy59's picture

Mister Magoo Speaks: Greenspan: No 'Irrational Exuberance' in Stocks Now

Really... Shut the fuck up, Greenspan, and die

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:55 | 3333348 VonSalza
VonSalza's picture

yes, keep the people in debt slavery.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 15:55 | 3333349 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

Attach a condition to any degree that it has been "paid in full".

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:00 | 3333364 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

What about cutting most of the direct and indirect subsidies and allows fees to fall to a level that an average household can pay for their children's education without running the risk of total ruin?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:01 | 3333368 little buddy bu...
little buddy buys the dips's picture

yes, it's a great idea. forgive my loans so i can go buy moar silver. cos that's what i've been doing instead of paying them off.


banks-- and the military-- can eat my ass. 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:01 | 3333370 kito
kito's picture

no, nobody should ever be allowed to free themselves of debt and repayment except ALL OF THE FUCKING BANKS/AIG/GM ETC WHO OFFLOADED THEIR nasty toxic debt laden SHIT ONTO BERNANKE OR INTO SOME "BAD ASSETS CORPORATION" BECAUSE THEY DIDNT HAVE A POT TO PISS IN.................................................


hey maybe the students can clone themselves and then dump their college debts onto their evil twin????? shirley the govt would allow that, yes????

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:05 | 3333381 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I was waiting for someone to mention that aspect. It took longer than I expected.

What is the problem here? I thought Tyler gave the answer. Go to college, take out 200k in loans. Graduate, travel Europe, get a job as a federal worker, and a few years later the loan is forgiven.

What's all the fuss about?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:17 | 3333409 kito
kito's picture

this double standard is galling fonz......completely galling................

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:20 | 3333414 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

i am getting ready to start a garden and finding other things to do with my time. i just look up now and then for a puff of smoke in the distance. i give up.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:25 | 3333429 kito
kito's picture

yep, i plan on the gardening thing this year. im in nj, perhaps i will stick with tomatoes....they do well around here

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:24 | 3333427 Tortuga
Tortuga's picture

Could it be that all the new hires for the Federal Govt. have student loans? Another leg of the STICK it to the WHITE MAN for reparations? HMMMM. Why else would the federal govt. grab all the outstanding student loans. I will vote Dimocratic so long as I gits my free phone and student loan and mortgage and cash for clunkers and free medical and free free free including money for the 6 children that I don't really have, from the IRS.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:15 | 3333548 akarc
akarc's picture

Obviously a college graduate. Though I didn't know the Arayn Nation had a University. But then I guess anyone with a printer can hand ya a genuwhine certified bigot and get yer t-shirt fer $15.00. God bless America

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:03 | 3333373 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Is this a trick question? Absolutely not! lolmao55 brings up some interesting ideas. Student loan (defaults) are not 'forgivable'. If student loans could be included in bankruptsy filings then they could at some point become forgivable.

   The real fix for student loan debt is to fire all the douchebag liberal college professors and education(asset management) board members. Getting an education is submitting to 'Eternal Servitude'.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:08 | 3333386 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Where is Doc Engali? Doc please tell the students who can't pay their loans back what they won! 3 free tours to Maliranistankorea!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:09 | 3333387 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

Fuck professor Lin and his propaganda video.  When you see bullshit steaming throughout the opening,  you get shit sandwiches.  Who gives a fuck about his fucking opinion about student debt anyway?   Live in a country that says education is everything go to school,  take out loans from crooks to pay for your degree so you can thrive.  No one else but crooks are allowed to offer student loans and only because they aren't dischargeable so they can own the serf forever.  His fucking university is an arm of a bogus southern religion that fucks their own over so well they need more people to fuck over all the time.   The so called university is a front for the governments that pay for enslavement.   

Listen to his crap, it is like a bank video telling you to bend over.

Anyone that says a student loan is a good deal is a fucking tool.  Maybe the good professor can offer his services as an ass cleaner.   This guy is auditioning to become one of the 456 stooges and is fronting for a think tank that thinks only about money other people have and how they can steal it.

Fucking rube needs to get a real job working out the difficult physical properties of toilet cleaning, for which he is not currently qualified.  

Tyler, why the fuck did you run a propaganda video for the banks? 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:10 | 3333389 The Invisible Foot
The Invisible Foot's picture

Lenders taking risk! HA!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:17 | 3333405 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

SO... let's totally screw those that did 'the right thing' by 



1) totally avoiding loans annd saving for college and paying for it up front

2) those that worked to pay college costs while attending

3) those that went to more affordable schools they could pay for without loans

4) those that got EMPLOYABLE degrees with salaries that allowed for repayment

5) those that limited debt to the minimum and have paid it back.


I'm supposed to subside SCAM for profit collegs that sign anyone up get them to take out loans and then do nothign to 'educagte them'?

I'm supposed to pay for someone who got 6 figures in loans to obtain a doctorate in 17th century Eastern European Literature, someone who now can't get a job?  or someone who went to a third tire law or Management school?


We saved to pay for our kids college since BEFORE they were born.  

It's bad enough to see people playing games to get undeserved aid but outright forgiveness paid for by taxpayers ?!?!?!    No.  

The problem is that taxpayers are on the hook NOW - the banks wrote loans they never should have issued but instead of them taking the losses, WE do.

How about COLLEGES THEMSELVES footing the bill for students who can't repay - especially all the scam for profit ones and those too willing to give out useless and unemployable degrees paid for with loans.   

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:48 | 3333491 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

My brother, the faith healer, lived on student loans for years.  Hasn't had a job since then, but still lives on the charity of others and gets free medical care courtesy of this great nation.  He can heal your aura, but he won't drive a truck for a living because it "isn't appropriate employment".

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:39 | 3333715 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

A faith healer that need medical care?


I was in a hotel where I walked by a sign listing a conference room name for a telepathy and psychics seminar. Overhearing this woman speaking to some (presumably) psychic acolytes in the hallway about her "gifts", I asked her "If this seminar is for psychics, why do they need a sign telling them where to go? Wouldn't they already know?"

Dirty look.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:16 | 3333550 Doctor Faustus
Doctor Faustus's picture

This. +10000

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:05 | 3333637 akarc
akarc's picture

Add aother 10000.  My freaking degreed Dr. sent me to an energy healer for headaches he couldn't cure. Stupid me I went. Stupid me the insurance didn't cover it. Stupid me I still get the headaches. Who should I blame? The Dr.? The energy dude? The insurance company? Nope, I blame myself. Sometimes ya got to take responsibility for your own learning be it by books or by experience.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:37 | 3333411 akarc
akarc's picture

I might have some sympathy for students were it not for the fact that I know so many dumb fucks with a college degree. And a great many hard working people who never had the opportunity.

Maybe entrance to college should be based on skill sets as opposed to who can afford to go to the head of the class.

An educated public is key to a strong economy. But is the answer, the whole country should become like the banks and seek bailouts over every fucking thing.  What do you tell the poor carpenter that lost his house because of corrupt politicians and bankers. Tell the same damn thing to the students.

Sorry you live in a fucking corrupt country and it was your goal to profit from it. Now maybe make your goal to quit worrying about your football team and binge drinking parties and fake occupy's and fucking do something about THE FUCKING PROBLEM!

But then again if you didn't prosper from handing degrees out to dumbfucks you would have to lower the cost of education. I suspect both LIBERAL and CONSERATIVE professors would not like that.  

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:19 | 3333412 Tombstone
Tombstone's picture

Yes, forgive and forget, because this would be another step toward creating the ultimate welfare state, the progressive utopia.  Besides, John Q Taxpayer is gonna eventually get the bill anyway.  Forward; and see you at the spring slave convention in Clinkville.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:23 | 3333421 SamAdams1234
SamAdams1234's picture

Bankruptcy and Statute of limitations and usury limits need to return to student loans. There is not reason that student loans are treated differently from other loans. It creates irresponsible lending.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:46 | 3333483 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

The ONLY security for a student loan is non-dischargeability.  Otherwise, they are simply credit card loans to non-creditworthy children with no assets.

That said, now that the Obama-state has wrested control of student loans from banks, we are one step from making all college cost-free, just as it should be in any utopia.  Loans given = loans forgiven = free college.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:38 | 3333462 ziggy59
ziggy59's picture

What doesnt make you smarter, makes you broker

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 16:48 | 3333490 CTG_Sweden
CTG_Sweden's picture



The problem with soaring tuition costs should be possible to solve completely for some educations (like law school), and partially for other educations, with more education over the Internet.


My assessment is that students would also learn more this way. If this could be proven by some kind of official test results I guess that students themselves would choose education over the Internet. Thereby, the problem for future generations of students would be solved. But those who already have paid for an education they don´t need would be a lingering problem. I guess that bailing out these people would be popular among those who have paid too much for an education. On the other hand a bail out would might slow down the transition to more cost efficient educations over the Internet.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:01 | 3333519 Count de Money
Count de Money's picture

The past availability of student loans and subsidies is the main driver of why education costs have tripled the rate of inflation. It's ironic that the more the gubmint has tried to make higher education affordable, the more expensive it's gotten.

There is no incentive under the current regime for colleges and universities to look at their costs. Instead, all the credit being made available has given them the ability to spend more, advertise more and hire more. The only place I've seen that handles money worse than a college is a hospital. I read a while back that the median salary of a tenured full professor is $200K. Nice work if you can get it.

You want to make higher education affordable? Get rid of all loans, grants and tax subsidies. If that happened and people were confronted with the real up-front costs, they might decide that a degree in native american transgendered studies might not be worth the money. With a lack of enrollment, universities might decide to cut costs by dumping their lesbian influences in 13th century poetry program and concentrate on offering courses that actually will qualify someone for a job and a career.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:08 | 3333531 Catullus
Catullus's picture

The government is going to bail the student loan industry out and be the only ones originating them You owe money to the government. They're not going to forgive it. End of story.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:06 | 3333540 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

15 + yrs ago, everyone I know in America - my cousins, uncles and aunts almost bragged about what a great thing it was that uni fees were so high in America to ensure quality education and world class facilities. They argued the financial divide also separated the wheat from the chaff, as if being educated with poor people was a horror too much to bear. They were not the only Americans who told me so. Then they told me how much it cost: $250,000 to $300,000.. I knew then that the system was fucked, and somebody was raking it all in whilst these suckers paid up.

Me? I had my UK uni education for free. And yes, it is in the top 5 of world class institutions for research in physics. My second and third graduate degrees did cost some money, probably less than 10% of what undergraduates spend in an Ivy league college in the US. If you want smart adults, you need good schools. If you want a great country, you need great institutions that are open to all with ability. The financial gulf along with the traditional American social stigma of the poor does not bode well for accessability to good education for the vast majority. It's a real shame too, because it is never the institutions that make a country great, but the quality of the people within it, and that precious resource is being wasted for yet another generation.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:19 | 3333555 Catullus
Catullus's picture

What university cost $200-$300k 15 years ago?

I went to one of the most expensive ones for 5 years. It was $35k all in a year. And that was 8 years ago.

And $35k was with room and board.

Tuition was $26k a year.

And not only did it keep the poor out. It flushed out the unmotivated freshmen within a semester or two.

I'd never do it again. Only because I know that HR departments don't really care. It's just a check box they fill out.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:55 | 3333624 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

One went to univ of Pennsylvania, the other to Harvard. 4 yr course total for each (not both) was the quoted figure of expenditure during their stay. I think one of them got a masters just for enrolling for an additional year. You can do the maths.

2 yrs ago one of them wanted to do a course at a business studies institution at Stanford but found it too expensive and they are far from poverty.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:24 | 3333680 adr
adr's picture

From 1995-2000 all Ivy League schools were in the $35-50k range per year not including room and board. I went to a Top 10 University in 1996. The tuition was $28k room and board was $8k. By 2000 tuition had increased to $32k and room and board ran $10k. By the end of my four years I incurred around $160k in fees and probably spent a good $20k on books and supplies over four years.

Harvard was above $50k with room and board by 2000. That is $200k 13 years ago not counting books and other supplies that can easily cost another $50k over four years at Harvard.

SO $200-300k isn't that far off.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:24 | 3333573 sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

Unlike the UK and Germany, the US does not use the faulty concept of compulsory educational streaming.  One bad score does not damn you to drudgery work.

Aside from that, the UK has it going in the right direction - now if employers over there would stop trying to insulate themselves from their staff by using agency/permatemps.


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:09 | 3333649 akarc
akarc's picture

 If you want a great country, you need great institutions that are open to all with ability. The financial gulf along with the traditional American social stigma of the poor does not bode well for accessability to good education for the vast majority. It's a real shame too, because it is never the institutions that make a country great, but the quality of the people within it, and that precious resource is being wasted for yet another generation.


Just because it bears repeating

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:13 | 3333798 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

I'd take a "great country" consisting of under-educated hard-working people of good character over one consisting of lazy but educated ones.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:59 | 3333758 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

It appears that  "great country" is a "socialist country", according to your definition.  And, by the way, congratulations on using lots of somebody else's money for yourself.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:29 | 3333846 akarc
akarc's picture

O.K. I'm wrong and you are right. So we need to stop educating those freeloaders in elementary and high school too. After all a great country has no need of an educated populace when it can become even greater outsourcing it's jobs and selling itself to the highest bidder.  Although you must not have been talking to me cause I don't use lots of money. Prob cause I don't have it.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:46 | 3333892 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

We require education of children through a certain grade, or age, because they would otherwise be non-functional burdens on society if they can't read, or do some math, or know what country they live in and how to find it on a map.  If you are equating that with the social utility of a college education of adults, I simply disagree.

Sorry you have no money, but it doesn't give you the right to take it from someone else unless of course you can get enough of your friends to vote for an entitlement.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:18 | 3333983 akarc
akarc's picture

Agree and disagree. My own experience indicates that there are many out there with a college degree who can't do any of the things you mention. But again, thats my experience. I have no college degree so I have no student loan. I don't have a lot of money cause I choose to not be a part of the system any more than I have to.  I do have some friends that would give money were I to ask for it. But only because I have given to them. THough we find barter to be more expedient. Kinda like you get what you are willing to give. Sometimes that system fails, but there is accountability. Accountability keeps folk honest.  

It would appear that can not be achieved on a nationwide scale. Because isn't that the real solution?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:31 | 3333850 Suisse
Suisse's picture

The UK is a basket case now as well. They also had to introduce tuition fees in 1998, I also recall reading about recent protests regarding them.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:15 | 3333976 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

I wouldn't disagree with that view. We followed the US model instead of the German model that puts emphasis on ability and not finance. All the great research in neuro science are in Germany, and they are years ahead of anyone else at churning out engineering graduates.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 09:49 | 3334960 BlueCheeseBandit
BlueCheeseBandit's picture

Funny, the German unis don't feature too prominently on top 100s of world unis.

Doesn't jive with your portrayal of them as an academic paradise.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:49 | 3334044 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

@ randfan

I can only leave it to others to judge whether the investment in my education was worthwhile. 

I can guess, from your monochromatic political view, that probably nothing I post will register. But consider this. The spending on the police, military,  fire and ems are all paid by somebody else, as well as personally, yet I would be willing to bet that you don't consider them "socialism". Perhaps you would argue that public spending on security and utility are different. I would argue that NOTHING is more important for the future security and prosperity of a nation than giving access to education at the highest levels to those who deserve it through their abilities alone. Otherwise it is a stupid waste of lives full of potential and benefit for all, but for the price of admission & fears of debt.


-Sorry all for the slow response but I am writing this on my phone

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 16:27 | 3335977 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

Public spending on police and fire protection, roads and bridges, benefits everyone.  Paying for your college benefits you.  Not me, and not much society in general.  For you to equate your personal ability to generate income, to have an office job, with putting out fires and arresting criminals is arrogant and selfish.

In an ideal world, it would be great if society had enough money to provide benefits to all of its citizens such as free college, free medical care, free nursing home care, free housing, and free childcare.  In fact, a society that tries to provide such wide benefits ends up encouraging indolence and irresponsibility.

My "monochromatic political view" is that individual liberty is more important than collective quality of life.  Yours appears to be the opposite, and perhaps you should examine your own narrow bias that includes taking by force or threat of force that which someone else earns in order to benefit only yourself.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:06 | 3333541 ziggy59
ziggy59's picture

Krugman Can't Admit He Was Wrong on Austerity: Latvia PM

Thats because hes an economist...

And some award winning schmuck

My child know more economics than he does.. Ask her what i have in my hand(ASE) she smiles and says its REAL money....

4 yrs old...

Way smarter than the 11 iTrader

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:20 | 3333558 sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

Unless they're willing to help find suitable work(read: relevant to their major) that pays off the loan in a reasonable amount of time, allow for forgiveness of the loan.  There is no sense in letting the lender off the hook while keeping the borrower on the hook for near-eternity.

In short, forgiveness or active assistance to avoid default. 

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:34 | 3333588 Count de Money
Count de Money's picture

Better yet, don't offer loans for majors that don't lead to an income stream that would allow for repayment. You want a degree in something with no marketability? Do it on your own nickel.

You're looking at the wrong end of the problem.


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:15 | 3333659 adr
adr's picture

Well you'd have to put design, engineering, computer science, teaching, or just about any scientific related degree in that basket of majors.

Unless you've got a 1%er as a friend, you've got no chance of making what they told you would.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:40 | 3333852 sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

If the lender had to work towards placing someone in a major-relevant job that would pay off the loan in a reasonable amount of time, they'd look more at the candidate and their viability for a loan.  That, and it would provide a better way for the loan to work as intended by providing more granularity of where success and failure are on the other end of the job market.

That is, I'm asking for something that would reward the lack of default.  If the lender won't allow that, they can't have general non-forgiveness.  What's wrong with asking the lender to not be lazy?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:27 | 3333580 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

i just do not understand. The profs at University of Phonics said i was so smart and well read and that my degree would make me more money......

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 17:56 | 3333623 de3de8
de3de8's picture

Wow, only have to read some of these responses to know why this country is so f--ked up.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:12 | 3333652 adr
adr's picture

I wish more people understood what a loan really is. A pledge to pay whoever gave you the money, double the amount they gave you.

You get loaned $25k for college, you can't afford to pay $1,000 a month to pay the loan off in a couple years. Hell you can't pay $500 a month if you are trying to live on your own. So you consolidate the loan and they give you a 25 year term. You pay $150 for 25 years, which adds up to $45k.

That's a pretty good deal for the lender, making $20k off loaning some kid money.

Mortgages are the same way. Or any loan for that matter. Can't we have a flat rate for loaning money. A pledge to pay back $125k for a $100k loan over 20 years? Is a 25% return over 20 years not fair? Does the return for loaning money have to reach almost 100% for a bank to give out money?

Our system has blown everything out of proportion with the goal that the average person can't ever afford to purchase almost anything without entering into the usury system. A game to make sure the bank always wins, and to make sure the banks are always needed.

If prices paid and wages truly reflected a sound economy, wouldn't that mean that most people would be able to save enough to purchase almost everything with cash? You used to be able to work in America and save up enough money to purchase a home outright in just a few years.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:05 | 3333775 AynRandFan
AynRandFan's picture

Totally absurd. By your logic, any lender wanting to make a fair rate of return is victimizing the borrower.  Try lending some of your money out and see if you feel any differently.

It is remarkable how the idea of unlimited money has become so accepted.  In the end, there will be only one lender willing to lend and that will be the one that can either print money or have you remanded to the custody of the local sheriff's dept.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 21:06 | 3334117 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

Absolutely.  And by fractional banking rules, that loan agreement is an asset for the bank against which they can lend more money ad infinitum. So the banks get both the interest on the loan and free money to lend. That's the principle of new money creation, and the source of corruption that shook the world with subprimes when they sold the loan agreements to other institutions to make even more profits.

It is this debts-as-assets economy that I find abhorrent.  When a bank sells a loan, they are trading with the lives of the people who signed it. Am I the only person who finds that immoral? I don't think so.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:18 | 3333665 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

"...Instead of debt forgiveness, he suggests making student loans like other types of loans: dischargeable in bankruptcy. ..."

absolutely! the bankster greed of non-dischargeable debts is evil and the triumph of debt takes two to tango, the borrower not being any more superior than the debtor...

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:19 | 3333668 TallDog83
TallDog83's picture

I think the charade will keep on going until the bottom falls through, either through a currency crisis or an outright rebellion against the secondary educational system. As it is now, students are shuffled through college like cattle right out of high school and then they're given these worthless degrees in anthropology or sociology or eastern hungarian folk dance and then told to embrace the real world which can't remotely offset the opportunity cost and financial burden of sky-high tuition of their education. This is just another part of the deleveraging process that must take place to flush the market of malinvestment. I think we'll see a lot more impoverished grads and a lot of closed colleges by the time this whole debacle is over.

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