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Which Is More American - War, Or Peace?

Tyler Durden's picture


It seems an obvious question but from the top down, based on the great and good leaders of the United States of America, it appears from their State of the Union speeches that 'War' indeed trumps 'Peace'. Of course, whether this is a reflection of the ultimate in Keynesian policy dreams of manufacturing ammunition just to be thrown away in non-inflationary ways (or to drive energy demand) is still in discussion.



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Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:46 | 3333727 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

War is America's manifest destiny... since the statists have been in power for quite a while.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:01 | 3333767 negative rates
negative rates's picture

I got one, hows about a little more CONSIDERATE!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:09 | 3333791 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

President Obama got us out of Iraq and he will get us out of Afghanistan by 2014.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:16 | 3333800 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Sure Krugman. Sure. Obama has been bombing 20+ countries with drones since he's been in office. Funded and armed terrorists in at least 2 countries (Syria and Libya). His action have killed SO FAR thousands of innocents. And he's planning to start a war with Iran. Fuck him up the ass with a rusted chainsaw.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:28 | 3333829 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Your a grand ole flag...forever in peace may you wave


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:10 | 3333958 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

"President Obama got us out of Iraq"

You mean when the the Iraqis refused to extend the stay and the military were forced to leave Iraq because of an agreement signed by George W.?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:15 | 3333974 BKbroiler
BKbroiler's picture

you guys are troll bait.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:28 | 3334020 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Let me take a crack at using all of those words in their proper order in a sentence that distills the essence of the The State of The Union...

Here goes... ahem ahem...

In America we Love to Sacrifice Truth, Unity, Equality, and Liberty with the full Faith that Freedom and Justice for all will come  in our quest for Peace through War.

"God bless America and have a good night."

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 00:16 | 3334513 sitenine
sitenine's picture

Holy shit - you didn't even change the order. </bow>

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 07:18 | 3334822 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



First rule of Peace Club is you don't talk about Peace Club.

Sun, 03/17/2013 - 12:42 | 3338520 SubjectivObject
SubjectivObject's picture

Should be easy to tell whose in Peace Club then.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 03:06 | 3334667 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Peace is counter-revolutionary - so the Biggest Finance Capital revolutionaries have no interest in it.

The Red Orchestra

Rothschilds Conduct 'Red Symphony'
The 20th Century Unveiled
By Henry Makow PhD

How to be a Crook

Debt Money Tyranny

Veritas - spread the link and the word...

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:21 | 3333822 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

And into Iran! Three cheers for the peacemonger.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 06:36 | 3334194 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture



Below is an article that I cut and pasted from CNN; but …. I replaced the word Iran with US, replaced the word US with China and the word Gulf with The Gulf of Mexico – not an easy feat when one is drinking, hopefully no mistakes.


An US fighter jet targeted an unarmed Chinese Predator drone over the Gulf of Mexico this week, the Chinese Defense Dept says. 

It was the latest US move aimed at thwarting Chinese military airborne intelligence efforts in the region. 

Chinese Defense Department spokesman Wang Hung Low said on Thursday the unmanned MQ-1 drone was conducting routine classified surveillance over international waters on Tuesday when approached by an USA F-4.

 The two aircraft came within 16 miles of each other. 

The Chinese drone was escorted by two Chinese military aircraft, which remained over international waters, Wang Hung Low said, adding that the US jet departed after a verbal warning. 

No shots were fired. However, The China administration officials told CNN that the Chinese is concerned with US intentions in incidents like this and whether such episodes could unintentionally trigger hostilities. 

In December 2011, a highly sensitive Chinese Sentinel drone gathering intelligence on United States nuclear program for the Chinese Intelligence was captured by the US after it crashed [it didn’t crash it was brought down .. but what the fuck ever]. In November, an US warplane fired on a Predator over the Gulf of Mexico 

After the November incident, China told Washington that it would continue surveillance flights over international waters "consistent with longstanding practice," Wang Hung Low said. 

"We also communicated that we reserve the right to protect our military assets as well as our forces and will continue to do so going forward," he said. 

The use of Chinese drones so close to US remains a highly sensitive issue for Chinese military intelligence. 

The aircraft are capable of using sensors to gather information about USA military movements. 


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:25 | 3333834 prains
prains's picture

War is America's manifest last industry !! whoop whoop

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 10:12 | 3334986 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

The economy is in a bad-enuf condition as it is.  The last thing we need is for widespread peace to break out.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 14:51 | 3335691 prains
prains's picture

Too much peace = Too much unemployment = errr

Sun, 03/17/2013 - 11:55 | 3338332 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Peace is counter-revolutionary.

The Biggest Finance Capital 5th grade debt money fraud revolution must go on!

Power to the oligarchs!

Darwin says the the serfs need to die off since they aren't "evolved" enough to understand that human predators exist (Biggest Finance Capital) and that 5th grade math underlies the fraud being used to enslave the serfs.

Debt Money Tyranny

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:33 | 3333853 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I thought, according to Obama, Afghanistan was "the good war"?

Mission Accomplished?

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 14:29 | 3335627 Element
Element's picture

Yup! Nailed it! Iraq was "the Just war".

Not sure which definition of "Just" they were using though.

Either way, it's a bit dodgy.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:42 | 3333880 monad
monad's picture

When will the beatings stop?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:06 | 3333945 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Not until the morale improves.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 22:19 | 3334306 mumbo_jumbo
mumbo_jumbo's picture

12-14-08 Bush 2.0 signed the agreement regarding Iraq troop withdrawal and the end of the Iraq war, on what planet can anyone say that this was an accomplishment of Obingo?.....unless you are a clueless economist who's never meet a deficit he didn't loved provided it was the work a of a dumbocrat

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 23:53 | 3334484 indygo55
indygo55's picture

He got the troops out, not the contractors, private goon squads, corrupt managers and leaders, and on and on. They are still there and we are still paying for it. 

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 14:30 | 3335619 Element
Element's picture



I got one, hows about a little more CONSIDERATE!


And considerate leads to "fair", ... i.e. "Is that fair?" ... and then you're well down the yellow-brick-road to see the bearded wizzer.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 04:25 | 3334718 blabam
blabam's picture

War is the health of the state.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:45 | 3333728 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

"We took them over and never fired a shot or put a tank in a square.....we are the envy of the rest of our adversaries....the greatest takeover ever"......1967 Budapest airport conversation after way too much booze during layover between two ...............

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 09:51 | 3334965 monad
monad's picture

Burned in Krugman's Amerika: The Mass Psychology of Fascism

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:47 | 3333730 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Let's be politically correct Tyler. (regional conflict) >for evahh.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:47 | 3333731 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

12 year long wars are by design, not accident

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:55 | 3333750 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Sure.  Gots to keep those military contracts in a perpetually rising that the entirely false economy can be propped up, and scads of bureaucratic desk jockies can keep hiring useless idiots to do their jobs for them, so that as they approach their golden parachute pension payouts, they don't even actually have to work.

This has the added benefit of making sure that America's primary export is death.  Brilliant. 

Thanks, Ben.  You are the man that keeps the whole crippled, corrupted, fascist system rolling along...even though, and for the sake of the world, it would be best if this entire group would finally just go broke...and go home.  We thank Mr. Bernanke for perpetually renewing this which us normal folks spend our days looking for additional part time jobs are baristas.  

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:04 | 3333772 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

"The chief business of the American government is war. It is profoundly concerned with bombing, maiming, killing, and destroying the rest of the world."

—my gratuitous misquote of Calvin Coolidge

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:10 | 3333782 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Comparing Ben Bernanke to a war monger - like Dubya - is moronic.

Ben Bernanke, Hippie:

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:15 | 3333799 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  How, in your (circumvented) mind do you find the time to banter with the ILK of Z/H and run your own personal ' spend thrift blog'..

   Inquiring Minds > Want to know. I didn't junk you. I enjoy toying with you, too much/

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:21 | 3333814 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

You answered your own question:  I am on the blogosphere quite a bit - as I write my own successful blog -  and I enjoy the swordplay here - I have to stay sharp for foul minds like Paul Ryan and Joe Scarborough - don't you know.

I have been reading Zero Hedge for years, for a source of financial reporting - I believe Tyler does a good job with some of the data - and when we were in more desperate times had a decent understanding of the depression.

Now however, Zero Hedge feels like it is on spin cycle - wash, rinse, repeat - with the calls of a faltering economy when leading indicators are pointing towards a recovery.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:41 | 3333861 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

     Dr. Krugman, I've tried the (exasperation) approach many times. I'm asking you nicely, to take a walk to the local market and purchase a loaf of bread. When you return home, pull up  this chart

     I won't ever junk you. I enjoy questioning your sanity too much. I think that you are a sheep in wolfs clothing. I THINK YOU UNDERSTAND THE UNDERLYING MACRO ISSUES.  Step out of the Ivory Tower (Dr. Krugman)


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:45 | 3333886 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Food prices are not sticky - they are transitory.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:06 | 3333947 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Who said anything about transitory? At least you have the conscience enough to admit food prices are inflated.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:27 | 3334013 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Do I smell a popped treasury bubble?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 23:22 | 3334429 Eally Ucked
Eally Ucked's picture

Your Alzheimer symptoms are really pronouced lately so I think you should retire peacefully without further aggravation. Just have your drink and go to sleep, please!

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 09:45 | 3334955 monad
monad's picture

Elsworth sent him to keep tabs on us, and to keep him busy.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:21 | 3333808 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Right on!

Criticizing the Fed for enabling perpetual war is like criticizing the banks who help launder money for drug cartels, as though they're somehow "bad" and should be "punished." Ludicrous! They're just making sure the money keeps moving, and if people happen to die in the course of that, so be it. If anything, we should be thanking these fine folks.

Saint Bernanke.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:33 | 3333855 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Ben Bernanke is doing good work for the economy and the government.

Fed Sent Record $88.4 Billion Profit to US Treasury Last Year:

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 21:33 | 3334191 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Hopefully Treasury will return the favor by telling "Wall Street in Washington" to go to hell. It ain't like Greenspan "fled" to the Library of Congress. I highly doubt "Gentle Ben" will be "retiring to Mount Vernon" to ponder his work either. I do agree however "there is nothing more American than understanding to get the peace you need more war first." and that of course is the simplicity of "war": seek out more of it...and you WILL find it. i must say i do feel a need to thank the North Korean crazies..."daring the Americans to act pre-emptively"? in a NUCLEAR capacity no less?! that sounds like a dream come true to me. one of the greatest speeches in American history actually...

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 07:36 | 3334831 falak pema
falak pema's picture

It has nothing to do with people; it has to do with power matrices.

Ben has to keep the petrodollar strategy so vital to Pax Americana in place; as does POtus.

They can't walk away from that plank and thats WHY Patriot Act and Gitmo as still on US MIC agenda.

If you want to run the oil show YOUR WAY, you have to have all the stinking apparatus that goes with it. 

That's power politics, and that's whats going to kill the financial/economic conondrum you say Uncle Ben is fixing with QE/Zirp; not solve it but the opposite. As the private banking stink as per JPM crony pathetic drama highlights all too well before Congress. Can't hide that under the carpet; eh Krugman's shadow?

Awesome, what that spells for banksta world and their Political front men on the Hill.

Its totally incompatible this power play to save oil and the fight to generate home economic growth and bring down debts and deficits. 

Somethings gotta give. The Empire has overplayed its hand and its not sustainable.

We really need those Martians your Avatar talks about.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 11:28 | 3335130 monad
monad's picture

Claiming chairsatan a hippie is a perversion. Hippies do not cut their hair and attach themselves to the FR , anyone who does that missed the bus.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:51 | 3333743 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

"Kinetic military action" FTMFW.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 18:53 | 3333747 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

War and Peace is Russian.

The US only likes war. Peace is very bad for MIC profits.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 23:30 | 3334441 NeedtoSecede
NeedtoSecede's picture

I think it was Jefferson who said something like this. "Peace is one of those rare moments in time when everyone is reloading."

We do have a pretty grim track record don't we?

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 00:57 | 3334557 W74
W74's picture

Mostly 'just' slaughtering our First Nations and driving them off their land.  They weren't very productive with it anyway.  Now tell me, those of us who went to public schools....did ya ever hear about the Chippewa wars or the Blackfoot campaign?

We knew how to wage guerrilla war back when it was cool, and then somehow forgot about it.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:02 | 3333769 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

Peace is for pussies. Be a man and fight for the American Empire.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:07 | 3333778 NeedleDickTheBu...
NeedleDickTheBugFucker's picture

Not surprised to see the word "truth" near the bottom of the list given that lying is an autonomic function amongst people in Washington.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:12 | 3333797 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

I know we are at War without guns and we are going to be a nation of Renters if we do not fight these foreign cocksuckers.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:28 | 3334019 negative rates
negative rates's picture

To late for that, we tried that once before.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:15 | 3333801 HD
HD's picture

Not even one use of the word "Bitchz"? 

If elected, I vow to be the first President to use the phrases, "Like, gag me with a spoon" and "Chillax" in the State of the Union.  HD in 2016 Bitchz!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:29 | 3333843 McMolotov
Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:24 | 3334000 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

He just bought some bitchen clothes.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:52 | 3334088 HD
HD's picture

I gotta see that movie...

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:17 | 3333809 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Nah. That just means the Goldman Sach took over the executive branch of the Federal Government and bribes the rest.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:28 | 3333842 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

war stats are artificially inflated by

war on women

war on drugs

war on illiteracy

war on poverty

war on racism

war on ......

not that we don't have a lot of real war going on but jeez we need a war on the indiscriminate and imprecise use of the word "war".

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:43 | 3333881 machineh
machineh's picture

Good point.

Second-order analysis requires looking at trends over time.

For instance, all the citations of 'liberty' were in the first 150 years or so. 

Now 'liberty' is a banned word -- enough to get you droned as a constitutionalist.

A president would no more say 'liberty' than he would say 'n*gg*r' -- people would be appalled.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:05 | 3333940 Fedaykinx
Fedaykinx's picture

just say it, gawd.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 23:35 | 3334454 NeedtoSecede
NeedtoSecede's picture

One war I could get behind would be a war on douchebag economists...


Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:36 | 3333858 razorthin
razorthin's picture

When you can no longer create, you destroy.  Too bad we can print peace.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:45 | 3333891 Mr. Hudson
Mr. Hudson's picture

America's slogan: "Kill, for the sake of killing!"

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 19:53 | 3333910 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

"Why are you people still bitching about things you do not understand? I thought I told you to STFU and eat your peas."  -Barack Hussein Obama-

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:01 | 3333931 Leto II
Leto II's picture

"...since the United States was founded in 1776, she has been at war during 214 out of her 235 calendar years of existence"

.910 waring percentage

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:07 | 3333952 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

America, fuck yeah!

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 10:53 | 3335049 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

I had no idea that the US had been attacked that many times!

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:08 | 3333953 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture

I study history a lot: US and European mostly. I never understood how Europeans had 30 and 100 year wars in duration.

Looking at Iraq and Afghanistan it makes sense to me now.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:19 | 3333987 little buddy bu...
little buddy buys the dips's picture

moar woar.

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:33 | 3334035 negative rates
negative rates's picture

I have an idea, why don't someone sabie up some cruise ships and take the don't float your boat derivatives and cash in on a dime. Any one up for an insurance scam?

Fri, 03/15/2013 - 20:24 | 3333999 22winmag
22winmag's picture

Ask JPM, the original war profiteer finance company that brokered unconstitutional deals for arms and steel with the British and French while a Democratic, Harvard-edumuckated President looked the other way.


Better yet, ask JFK who favored general disarmament and the dissolution of our offense-oriented standing armies.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 11:04 | 3334789 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Geopolitical considerations of PAx Americana play in the ME as it develops in front of our eyes today :

Over the past ten years the US military play has destroyed Irak as a country and maimed Afghan/ Pak into drone surveillance repression and total militarised anarchy.

The Arab spring then gave the US MIC an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone : use the popular secular inspired unrest in Tunisia and Egypt to stir up the Arab honey pot, using divide and rule tactics as epitomised by their man Morsi; both a pro American-Israel compatible shill and Moslem brotherhood spokesman.

Now we have the worst of both worlds in Egypt; perfect divide and rule tactics.

Then on to Libya, surfing on Arab spring to unpin another despot, Q-daffy, created during the MIC arms bazar age of the 70s, by using the rabid moslem elements of Benghazi to oust in bloodshed his secular base in TRipoli. Now Libya is under the US MIC gun AND the moslem rabid clique like in Egypt. Good for arms merchants and Oil barons of first world Oligarchy! Q-daffy's libyan money bonanza under control of US banks and Euro corporations, thank you very much!

Now on to Syria. The Syrian uprising began as a non violent movement that has within two years degenerated into outright civil war and according to many sources been fueled by the same moslem "freedom fighter" rabbles imported from Irak and Libya with Q-daffy weaponry captured. This ongoing mayhem of divide and rule play may now openly degenerate into a Libyan type solution with direct Franco-Brit hands on/hand off (shadow special forces) type play, as against Q-daffy to destroy the Assad despotic but secular base on its western coast; whatever the Russians may say, as they are more n more isolated on world stage.

We will have further destroyed all hope of a secular democratic solution in the Arab world; THE VERY ESSENCE OF WESTERN CIVILISATION, as its value systems put on all its constitutional PAPER letterheads; aka UN resolutons, but which its Machiavellian sleight of hand OBLITERATES for agenda of Oligarchy greed and hegemony creed, all unavowable in public

So the Pax Americana play will have destroyed the political and social fabric of 4 nations of Arab world : IRak, Egypt, Libya and Syria in this post 2003, war on terror, clash of civilization period; all around the sacred oil patch, sterilised under the control of friendly and deadly moslem monarchies. Deadly, because they will NEVER do anything constructive to support the welfare of 200 million Arabs people, their very own, wallowing in civil war pain their lives uprooted.

These princes of Saud and Qatar prefer spending their money in London, NY and Paris and investing their oil riches in elitist corporations who are part of world Oligarchy matrix. That's their way of doing Allah's work...all the while they soothe the popular hatred and frenzy of the local rabble inside the simmering islamic cauldron. All very comfy for their own conscience as its  proven sterile political ideology since 500 hundred years that blinds the growth of secular progress in these lands; concentrating more on internecine recurrent SHia-Sunni-Christian minority bashings to let its blood of innocents like medieval doctors of old. 

How will the dynamics of this local social disaster of 200 million + arab sheeple evolve? As this is UNSTABLE equilibrium concocted in Imperial colonial play for sanctuarising the only thing that counts : OIL, sweet arab oil, lifeline of west.

We can see the writing on the wall of this arab nation fall. The big local winners are Turkey (friend of west) and Iran (enemy of west). 

We are seeing in front of our eyes the construction of a new Ottoman Empire and of a recalcitrant Safavid nation facing them. Once the Syrian situation has been "sterilised" you can be sure the West will move to taking on the new Safavids; enemies under Shia Theocracy of the West under Pax Americana! 

And...Turkey in five years time will reign supreme over the ME just like in PRE 1918 days! 

Welcome to the New World Order where Istanbul will be new hub of the Middle East and friend of Pax Americana while it rules the roost! (For how long?)

BTW : That suits Mutti Merkel's vision of EU geopolitics fine. And you will probably see Turkey being invited into an ailing and laggard EU to bolster up the Southern front. Just like under Soleiman the MAgnificent! And the Franco-Ottoman alliance.

History repeats!

Turkey will be king pin of the ME. It controls ALL the waters of that region as well as the new silk routes out to the West : the Oil pipelines and gas lines from Irak and Caspian/Kazakh-Turkomen-Iran complex.

All part of the NWO, with Mongol China and Imperial Russia standing on the frontiers of ME to be part of the new world resource base carve up! 

Play on universal empire of new Charles V; conquistadors of New world.

Istanbul Wall Street - Business Insider

Iraq war: six lessons we still need to learn | Emma Sky | Comment is free |

Paths to change: peaceful vs violent | openDemocracy



Sat, 03/16/2013 - 19:22 | 3336463 monad
monad's picture

Haven't voted yet. You change US to UN everywhere, I agree. UN, with its Islamic block. Otherwise, your head is inserted in 'X's ass in the Bonzai foodchain.
Bitch, that came out of Janey Reno's ass. Eeuuu...

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 07:24 | 3334826 proLiberty
proLiberty's picture

Murray Rothbard was right to observe that big government becomes the "welfare-warfare" state.  

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 14:22 | 3335587 Element
Element's picture
Which Is More American - War, Or Peace?


Don't tell me, I know this one ... ahh ... no, don't tell me ... it's right on the tip of my tongue! ... ummm??? ... errr

gah!! ... stuff it!!  ... I just can't remember

Never mind ... well, I'd always suspected "Truth" would rate pretty damn low in US presidential speeches ... and there's the evidence.

Sat, 03/16/2013 - 15:39 | 3335803 Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

?Quien es mas macho?

Fernando Lamas?

Ricardo Montalban?

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!