• Gold Money
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    Here’s a question that might have you pondering: Is gold a commodity? More importantly, are we doing a disservice to the gold industry by calling gold a commodity? These may sound like silly...

Meanwhile In Electronic Currency Land, Or Bitcoin 1 - 0 ECB

Tyler Durden's picture




 

It would appear that the imploding rule of law and currency weakness in Europe has done nothing but increase the value of a 'haircut-proof' digital currency. Since we first saw the ECB 'bash' Bitcoin in November of last year, when the central bank "stooped" so low as having to issue a 55-page pamphlet warning readers against "virtual currency schemes", the value of the digital currency has risen from EUR10 to record highs around EUR37 currently.

 

 

Source: bitcoincharts

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Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:40 | 3343608 SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

Still prefer my physical precious metals.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:42 | 3343623 CH1
CH1's picture

As if Bitcoin requires you to get rid of them?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:43 | 3343636 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Every other monetary commodity is controlled, why wouldn't Bitcoin be?  I'm sure that Ben has his eye on Bitcoin.

Anyone know how they can kill or control it?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:47 | 3343659 CH1
CH1's picture

Anyone know how they can kill or control it?

Yes: Close the Internet. ALL of the Internet.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:50 | 3343673 troublesum
troublesum's picture

Who says they dont already?

BitCoin CIA Connection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5VC58gjnjY

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:52 | 3343689 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

In the world of alternative currencies to fiat, Bitcoin is gold's competitor.

If all the money that disappeared into bitcoins so far had instead been traded for gold, perhaps the comex would be closed already.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:00 | 3343721 Manthong
Manthong's picture


Sprott on KWN this weekend  seems to think they are getting near the bottom of the physical.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:09 | 3343759 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

It's Bullion I Trust!

Why's it depicted as a gold coin?

Who wrote the code - Keiser Sosay?

What back doors are in the code?

What are they without electricity?

What are the barriers to entry?

But...... There's no better way to conduct business anonymously - See: The Silk Road Market Place and TOR!!!!!!!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:38 | 3343991 CH1
CH1's picture

What back doors are in the code?

It is OPEN SOURCE.

Anyone who wants to check the code for back doors can do so.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:48 | 3344062 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

I and most others have no idea how to do that - so I have to trust someone else's opinion - NO THANKS!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:58 | 3344118 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

Tell me, can you verify the authenticity of gold or silver in your hand?  Would you be able to identify a fake $10 dollar bill if I handed it to you right now?  If you barter anything, you are trusting to some degree that the counterparty is faithfully representing themselves. 

 

I play with metals for a living, but I wouldn't be able to tell you a gold plated tungsten coin was fake with out having sophisticated equipment or physically separating it. 

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:20 | 3344247 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

So because other mediums can be faked I should accept bitcoin blindly - good point?

Perhaps that should be bitcoins slogan - "Use us, others could also be fake."

"Trsut but verify" - Reagan

I cant do that with bitcoin, but I do understand its need!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:52 | 3344391 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Bitcoin is useless without:

  • the internet
  • a computer
  • electricity
  • a trading partner

I am Chumbawamba.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 17:13 | 3344476 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin does not rely on the internet.  And no, we are not going Mad Max in a dollar collapse.  Chances of an EMP or solar flare taking out the majority of computers on Earth?  Not likely and the block-chain still survives.

The possibilities with BTC blow my mind.  When you own BTC you essentially own a crypto-tunnel that can transfer wealth anywhere on the planet at any time.  The more BTC you control, the larger the tunnel you control is.  BTC is the trade of the millenium.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 18:08 | 3344681 TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

Bitcoin certainly does rely on the internet.   No internet = no P2P bitcoin network = no transactions processed = bitcoins worthless.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 18:11 | 3344697 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoins do NOT rely on the internet!  Any person who has passed their amatuer radio license can tell you that the media is NOT the message! 

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 19:07 | 3344896 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

How do you wanna verify the amount on a Bitcoin address without an up-to-date blockchain?

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:07 | 3346026 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

Internet can't be shut down. 

It's just a bunch of wires and protocol.

 

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 19:05 | 3344890 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Wall St is useless without any of the 3 requirements above. They can't nuke Bitcoin without nuking themselves.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:12 | 3346031 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

and that's the best part of bitcoin protocol... :) killing it would require suicidal tendencies...

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:44 | 3344356 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Exactly, gold and silver's value is still subjective although they do have some objective utility outside their roles as money.  But their value is still mainly subjective, it's just that this value goes back thousands of years so some people mistake that as being objective and confuse that with "intrinsic value".  Keiser had a great show about this a few months ago that wound up getting his guest fired because his employers thought some electrons and atomic bonds are more magical than others.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:03 | 3344121 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

delete

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:17 | 3344230 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Did you review the code for your bank's ATM machine?  How about your computer's OS?  Or a thousand other things? 

Jesus people, we are not cavemen!  What do you think the engineers, technologists, technicians, programmers, hackers, administrators, etc do all day long?  They wrote the modern world you exist in!!

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:02 | 3346024 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

Open source means absolutely nothing in security terms. If anything, it means that a more obfuscated attack is possible than with closed-source projects.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=358210
(Reflections on Trusting Trust, by Ken Thompson. Published by the ACM in August 1984 - nearly 29 years ago.)

You need to understand that if someone has already doctored the GCC compiler, no trace may exist in source anywhere. Ken Thompson himself doctored the UNIX compiler some decades ago, to insert code that allowed him to login as "kt" on any UNIX system compiled with that compiler. The compiler also was trained to recognise when it was compiling itself, and it would insert both Trojan horses automatically (one for UNIX, and another for the compiler.) Of course, there was no trace in source code anywhere - and even the most detailed audit of the source code would not reveal his backdoor.

In many ways, having a project open-sourced actually makes in more vulnerable to attack - not less. If somone with power and influence wants to attack Bitcoin, they need only make sure that the compilers released by Red Hat, et al, are doctored - while every simpleton is looking at the source code and nodding their heads, nobody is paying attention to the code generated by the GCC compiler they received in binary form. Bruce Schneier says you can use another compiler to check, but that's always assuming that the second compiler hasn't been doctored as well. If I were big and powerful, and had a huge interest in making sure Bitcoin had an invisible backdoor planted in it, I would regard it as trivial to make sure I had the right people in the right places to ensure that major Linux and UNIX distributions (including even Intel's own compiler) were doctored with the right code to ensure that most (if not all) Bitcoin binaries have Trojan horses in them.

Corollary: If you are looking for possible backdoors in Bitcoin, the Bitcoin source code is not the only place you should look.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:14 | 3346033 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

Back doors work only on centralized systems. Not on p2p.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:30 | 3346043 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

You're really not thinking. Try again.

From the Bitcoin documentation:
"Bitcoin relies on the fact that no single entity can control most of the CPU power on the network for any significant length of time, since, if they could, they would be able to extend any branch of the tree they chose, and faster than any other branch can be extended, making it the longest branch, and then permanently controlling which transactions appear in it."

That is just one avenue of attack.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 09:39 | 3346569 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

it's called 51% attack, no connection to back doors...

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 04:28 | 3351280 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

You're still not thinking.

If you control the code of the majority of nodes, because of a compiler issue, you can effectively issue orders to those nodes (like mining only parts of the tree you wish to control.) Because you control the code, you control the network if you have more than 51% of nodes obeying what you want.

Just because a system is p2p does not protect it from having malicious code executing on nodes.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:39 | 3343997 Capitalist Exploits
Capitalist Exploits's picture

Yeah just remember Sprott sells the stuff. Not saying he's wrong but he has a bias.

I personally think we've bottomed but hey what do I know?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:49 | 3344383 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I've been wondering what "the boyz" really fear more?  A COMEX default or the Bit Standard?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:01 | 3343732 TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

If all 400M or so USD in bitcoin were suddenly invested in gold, the resultant blip on kitco wouldn't survive 8:30AM.  

Edit: 523.8M USD.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:59 | 3344421 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Current supply of 11 million BTC?  $48/BTC? 

I can capture 1/21,000,000 of the possible crypto-gold standard for less than fifty fiat dollars?

Dummy up, I'm buying!!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:03 | 3343752 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"In the world of alternative currencies to fiat, Bitcoin is gold's competitor."-

LMFAO!  I have never had any trouble getting people to exchange items of real value or the fruits of their labor for physical Gold.   I wonder how these imaginary electronic bits will work?  Fucking halarious.  Bitcoin is competing with other fiat moron.  It has no physical presence like gold.  It is backed only by the promise that it is safe, just like fiat.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:18 | 3343862 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

Apparently you missed your classes on mathematics when you were studying the laws of physics.  Also, Bitcoin is the furtheest thing from fiat possible.  Fiat means command or decree.  Bitcoin is used vountarily and the price of it is determined on the free market, whereas dollars and euros are mandated by legal tender laws.

The Bitcoin Channel

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:35 | 3343950 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Can I touch those bits?  You're the one getting confused, and you apparently missed those econ 101 classes, lots of things can be used as a medium of exchange, however, a safe store of value is something else altogether moron.  The more I read these posts, the more it becomes clear that bitcoin is yet another government backed and funded "opportunity".

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:13 | 3344190 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

"the more it becomes clear that bitcoin is yet another government backed and funded "opportunity"."

That could be the only intelligent comment you made today, but everyone has to start somewhere.

As for the rest, when you'll realize that money in any form, including gold, is a mere social construct, I'll be watching your edits to your own posts.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:46 | 3344368 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Keep your digits off other peoples' bits please.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:02 | 3343723 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

That video has a lot of false statements and goes on some crazy tangents.

The most important fact you have to remember is that the project is open source, so feel free to look at the entire code from the start to now.

I've (lightly) audited the source code as have hundreds of other crypto experts to find flaws and you can too. In fact if you have the C++ chops feel free to donate time. Most contributers and bitcointalk forum members are anarcho-capitalists to the core.

 

BUT, I'm no expert!! I bought $500 worth back when they cost ~$5 a piece and haven't been involved in the project since.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:01 | 3343746 Popo
Popo's picture

I got turned off Bitcoin when I signed up for an account on MtGox.  They wanted scans of my passport and my social security number.  Sorry, but no.   That's no kind of "alternative" currency.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:05 | 3343758 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

Mt Gox is simply the broker, you can't start an account with JPM and not expect the same requirements.

 

Coinbase is run by a few friends of mine but I don't have any clue on the requirements.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:07 | 3343777 Matt
Matt's picture

MtGox is essentially a Forex trading service; they likely have to comply with Know Your Customer and Anti Money Laundering Laws.

You do not need MtGox to use bitcoin. You can mine them, or you can buy them locally from people; you can pay someone with physical dollars, and they transfer the bitcins to you. You can meet anonymously online and meet at a coffee shop if both parties want as little as possible known about them.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:22 | 3344256 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

You're correct. Mt. Gox does have to comply with know your customer laws.
Also the cash for bitcoin website is localbitcoins.com. Anyone shopping in the Ithaca, NY area, I can vouch that user "ithacabtc" is a trustworthy seller.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:33 | 3343952 digitalhermit
digitalhermit's picture

MtGox is for the big dogs. If you want smaller amounts < $5000 USD you can easily buy them anonymously peer-to-peer, no ID required:

https://localbitcoins.com/

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:54 | 3344092 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Riddle me this: On a site so alert and distrusting of the Fed/Gov, exactly WHEN do you expect them to start their anti-propaganda campaign?

I would think that the repeat reader/blogger has done their homework by now, and their position clear?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:32 | 3344115 fonestar
fonestar's picture

With all due respect to Chris Duane and his slave queen coins, he is out of his depth discussing Bitcoin and digital currencies.  Sure the CIA knows about it, has most likely been running sims on it's adoption and probably planned for it as far back as the Philip Zimmerman days.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:30 | 3344297 fonestar
fonestar's picture

"Anyone know how they can kill or control it?

Yes: Close the Internet. ALL of the Internet."

 

 

makes my life easy...

 

ip access-list standard 1

deny any any

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 08:50 | 3346380 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

"Anyone know how they can kill or control it?"

Yes: Close the Internet. ALL of the Internet.

They don't have to go that far. There are other ways, the delusional BC fans just haven't thought of them. Never trust anything that's either paper or digital. And if you don't have your physical assets in your personal possession, don't trust that either.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:52 | 3343677 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

Bitcoin is p2p so it's essentially like torrents, which the gov has been trying to shutdown for years.

That said, if they can take over at least half of the blockchain (by running bitcoin nodes with enough computational power) they will have the ability to double spend bitcoins. But it will only last while they have control of the network. 

Can the NSA pull something like this off? Possibly but there are thousands of bitcoin miners with thousands of high powered gpu's running all over the world. It is also open source so if anyone starts messing with the blockchain (history of every transaction ever) it will be easily noticable.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:02 | 3343748 resurger
resurger's picture

So are you saying that bitcoin is safe, what are the bitcoin miners?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:17 | 3343853 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

 

Five Killed in BitCoin Mining Accident

~ memory heap collapse blamed ~

~ logic probes attempt to reached trapped miners ~

 

 

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