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Meanwhile In Electronic Currency Land, Or Bitcoin 1 - 0 ECB

Tyler Durden's picture


It would appear that the imploding rule of law and currency weakness in Europe has done nothing but increase the value of a 'haircut-proof' digital currency. Since we first saw the ECB 'bash' Bitcoin in November of last year, when the central bank "stooped" so low as having to issue a 55-page pamphlet warning readers against "virtual currency schemes", the value of the digital currency has risen from EUR10 to record highs around EUR37 currently.



Source: bitcoincharts


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Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:40 | 3343608 SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

Still prefer my physical precious metals.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:42 | 3343623 CH1
CH1's picture

As if Bitcoin requires you to get rid of them?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:43 | 3343636 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Every other monetary commodity is controlled, why wouldn't Bitcoin be?  I'm sure that Ben has his eye on Bitcoin.

Anyone know how they can kill or control it?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:47 | 3343659 CH1
CH1's picture

Anyone know how they can kill or control it?

Yes: Close the Internet. ALL of the Internet.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:50 | 3343673 troublesum
troublesum's picture

Who says they dont already?

BitCoin CIA Connection

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:52 | 3343689 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

In the world of alternative currencies to fiat, Bitcoin is gold's competitor.

If all the money that disappeared into bitcoins so far had instead been traded for gold, perhaps the comex would be closed already.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:00 | 3343721 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Sprott on KWN this weekend  seems to think they are getting near the bottom of the physical.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:09 | 3343759 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

It's Bullion I Trust!

Why's it depicted as a gold coin?

Who wrote the code - Keiser Sosay?

What back doors are in the code?

What are they without electricity?

What are the barriers to entry?

But...... There's no better way to conduct business anonymously - See: The Silk Road Market Place and TOR!!!!!!!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:38 | 3343991 CH1
CH1's picture

What back doors are in the code?


Anyone who wants to check the code for back doors can do so.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:48 | 3344062 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

I and most others have no idea how to do that - so I have to trust someone else's opinion - NO THANKS!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:58 | 3344118 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

Tell me, can you verify the authenticity of gold or silver in your hand?  Would you be able to identify a fake $10 dollar bill if I handed it to you right now?  If you barter anything, you are trusting to some degree that the counterparty is faithfully representing themselves. 


I play with metals for a living, but I wouldn't be able to tell you a gold plated tungsten coin was fake with out having sophisticated equipment or physically separating it. 

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:20 | 3344247 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

So because other mediums can be faked I should accept bitcoin blindly - good point?

Perhaps that should be bitcoins slogan - "Use us, others could also be fake."

"Trsut but verify" - Reagan

I cant do that with bitcoin, but I do understand its need!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:52 | 3344391 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Bitcoin is useless without:

  • the internet
  • a computer
  • electricity
  • a trading partner

I am Chumbawamba.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 17:13 | 3344476 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin does not rely on the internet.  And no, we are not going Mad Max in a dollar collapse.  Chances of an EMP or solar flare taking out the majority of computers on Earth?  Not likely and the block-chain still survives.

The possibilities with BTC blow my mind.  When you own BTC you essentially own a crypto-tunnel that can transfer wealth anywhere on the planet at any time.  The more BTC you control, the larger the tunnel you control is.  BTC is the trade of the millenium.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 18:08 | 3344681 TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

Bitcoin certainly does rely on the internet.   No internet = no P2P bitcoin network = no transactions processed = bitcoins worthless.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 18:11 | 3344697 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoins do NOT rely on the internet!  Any person who has passed their amatuer radio license can tell you that the media is NOT the message! 

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 19:07 | 3344896 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

How do you wanna verify the amount on a Bitcoin address without an up-to-date blockchain?

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:07 | 3346026 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

Internet can't be shut down. 

It's just a bunch of wires and protocol.


Mon, 03/18/2013 - 19:05 | 3344890 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Wall St is useless without any of the 3 requirements above. They can't nuke Bitcoin without nuking themselves.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:12 | 3346031 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

and that's the best part of bitcoin protocol... :) killing it would require suicidal tendencies...

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:44 | 3344356 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Exactly, gold and silver's value is still subjective although they do have some objective utility outside their roles as money.  But their value is still mainly subjective, it's just that this value goes back thousands of years so some people mistake that as being objective and confuse that with "intrinsic value".  Keiser had a great show about this a few months ago that wound up getting his guest fired because his employers thought some electrons and atomic bonds are more magical than others.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:03 | 3344121 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture


Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:17 | 3344230 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Did you review the code for your bank's ATM machine?  How about your computer's OS?  Or a thousand other things? 

Jesus people, we are not cavemen!  What do you think the engineers, technologists, technicians, programmers, hackers, administrators, etc do all day long?  They wrote the modern world you exist in!!

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:02 | 3346024 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

Open source means absolutely nothing in security terms. If anything, it means that a more obfuscated attack is possible than with closed-source projects.
(Reflections on Trusting Trust, by Ken Thompson. Published by the ACM in August 1984 - nearly 29 years ago.)

You need to understand that if someone has already doctored the GCC compiler, no trace may exist in source anywhere. Ken Thompson himself doctored the UNIX compiler some decades ago, to insert code that allowed him to login as "kt" on any UNIX system compiled with that compiler. The compiler also was trained to recognise when it was compiling itself, and it would insert both Trojan horses automatically (one for UNIX, and another for the compiler.) Of course, there was no trace in source code anywhere - and even the most detailed audit of the source code would not reveal his backdoor.

In many ways, having a project open-sourced actually makes in more vulnerable to attack - not less. If somone with power and influence wants to attack Bitcoin, they need only make sure that the compilers released by Red Hat, et al, are doctored - while every simpleton is looking at the source code and nodding their heads, nobody is paying attention to the code generated by the GCC compiler they received in binary form. Bruce Schneier says you can use another compiler to check, but that's always assuming that the second compiler hasn't been doctored as well. If I were big and powerful, and had a huge interest in making sure Bitcoin had an invisible backdoor planted in it, I would regard it as trivial to make sure I had the right people in the right places to ensure that major Linux and UNIX distributions (including even Intel's own compiler) were doctored with the right code to ensure that most (if not all) Bitcoin binaries have Trojan horses in them.

Corollary: If you are looking for possible backdoors in Bitcoin, the Bitcoin source code is not the only place you should look.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:14 | 3346033 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

Back doors work only on centralized systems. Not on p2p.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:30 | 3346043 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

You're really not thinking. Try again.

From the Bitcoin documentation:
"Bitcoin relies on the fact that no single entity can control most of the CPU power on the network for any significant length of time, since, if they could, they would be able to extend any branch of the tree they chose, and faster than any other branch can be extended, making it the longest branch, and then permanently controlling which transactions appear in it."

That is just one avenue of attack.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 09:39 | 3346569 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

it's called 51% attack, no connection to back doors...

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 04:28 | 3351280 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

You're still not thinking.

If you control the code of the majority of nodes, because of a compiler issue, you can effectively issue orders to those nodes (like mining only parts of the tree you wish to control.) Because you control the code, you control the network if you have more than 51% of nodes obeying what you want.

Just because a system is p2p does not protect it from having malicious code executing on nodes.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:39 | 3343997 Freaking Heck
Freaking Heck's picture

Yeah just remember Sprott sells the stuff. Not saying he's wrong but he has a bias.

I personally think we've bottomed but hey what do I know?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:49 | 3344383 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I've been wondering what "the boyz" really fear more?  A COMEX default or the Bit Standard?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:01 | 3343732 TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

If all 400M or so USD in bitcoin were suddenly invested in gold, the resultant blip on kitco wouldn't survive 8:30AM.  

Edit: 523.8M USD.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:59 | 3344421 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Current supply of 11 million BTC?  $48/BTC? 

I can capture 1/21,000,000 of the possible crypto-gold standard for less than fifty fiat dollars?

Dummy up, I'm buying!!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:03 | 3343752 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"In the world of alternative currencies to fiat, Bitcoin is gold's competitor."-

LMFAO!  I have never had any trouble getting people to exchange items of real value or the fruits of their labor for physical Gold.   I wonder how these imaginary electronic bits will work?  Fucking halarious.  Bitcoin is competing with other fiat moron.  It has no physical presence like gold.  It is backed only by the promise that it is safe, just like fiat.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:18 | 3343862 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

Apparently you missed your classes on mathematics when you were studying the laws of physics.  Also, Bitcoin is the furtheest thing from fiat possible.  Fiat means command or decree.  Bitcoin is used vountarily and the price of it is determined on the free market, whereas dollars and euros are mandated by legal tender laws.

The Bitcoin Channel

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:35 | 3343950 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Can I touch those bits?  You're the one getting confused, and you apparently missed those econ 101 classes, lots of things can be used as a medium of exchange, however, a safe store of value is something else altogether moron.  The more I read these posts, the more it becomes clear that bitcoin is yet another government backed and funded "opportunity".

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:13 | 3344190 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

"the more it becomes clear that bitcoin is yet another government backed and funded "opportunity"."

That could be the only intelligent comment you made today, but everyone has to start somewhere.

As for the rest, when you'll realize that money in any form, including gold, is a mere social construct, I'll be watching your edits to your own posts.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:46 | 3344368 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Keep your digits off other peoples' bits please.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:02 | 3343723 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

That video has a lot of false statements and goes on some crazy tangents.

The most important fact you have to remember is that the project is open source, so feel free to look at the entire code from the start to now.

I've (lightly) audited the source code as have hundreds of other crypto experts to find flaws and you can too. In fact if you have the C++ chops feel free to donate time. Most contributers and bitcointalk forum members are anarcho-capitalists to the core.


BUT, I'm no expert!! I bought $500 worth back when they cost ~$5 a piece and haven't been involved in the project since.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:01 | 3343746 Popo
Popo's picture

I got turned off Bitcoin when I signed up for an account on MtGox.  They wanted scans of my passport and my social security number.  Sorry, but no.   That's no kind of "alternative" currency.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:05 | 3343758 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

Mt Gox is simply the broker, you can't start an account with JPM and not expect the same requirements.


Coinbase is run by a few friends of mine but I don't have any clue on the requirements.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:07 | 3343777 Matt
Matt's picture

MtGox is essentially a Forex trading service; they likely have to comply with Know Your Customer and Anti Money Laundering Laws.

You do not need MtGox to use bitcoin. You can mine them, or you can buy them locally from people; you can pay someone with physical dollars, and they transfer the bitcins to you. You can meet anonymously online and meet at a coffee shop if both parties want as little as possible known about them.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:22 | 3344256 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

You're correct. Mt. Gox does have to comply with know your customer laws.
Also the cash for bitcoin website is Anyone shopping in the Ithaca, NY area, I can vouch that user "ithacabtc" is a trustworthy seller.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 17:36 | 3344572 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Hey one out of one aint bad.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:33 | 3343952 digitalhermit
digitalhermit's picture

MtGox is for the big dogs. If you want smaller amounts < $5000 USD you can easily buy them anonymously peer-to-peer, no ID required:

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:54 | 3344092 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Riddle me this: On a site so alert and distrusting of the Fed/Gov, exactly WHEN do you expect them to start their anti-propaganda campaign?

I would think that the repeat reader/blogger has done their homework by now, and their position clear?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:32 | 3344115 fonestar
fonestar's picture

With all due respect to Chris Duane and his slave queen coins, he is out of his depth discussing Bitcoin and digital currencies.  Sure the CIA knows about it, has most likely been running sims on it's adoption and probably planned for it as far back as the Philip Zimmerman days.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:30 | 3344297 fonestar
fonestar's picture

"Anyone know how they can kill or control it?

Yes: Close the Internet. ALL of the Internet."



makes my life easy...


ip access-list standard 1

deny any any

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 08:50 | 3346380 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

"Anyone know how they can kill or control it?"

Yes: Close the Internet. ALL of the Internet.

They don't have to go that far. There are other ways, the delusional BC fans just haven't thought of them. Never trust anything that's either paper or digital. And if you don't have your physical assets in your personal possession, don't trust that either.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:52 | 3343677 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

Bitcoin is p2p so it's essentially like torrents, which the gov has been trying to shutdown for years.

That said, if they can take over at least half of the blockchain (by running bitcoin nodes with enough computational power) they will have the ability to double spend bitcoins. But it will only last while they have control of the network. 

Can the NSA pull something like this off? Possibly but there are thousands of bitcoin miners with thousands of high powered gpu's running all over the world. It is also open source so if anyone starts messing with the blockchain (history of every transaction ever) it will be easily noticable.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:02 | 3343748 resurger
resurger's picture

So are you saying that bitcoin is safe, what are the bitcoin miners?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:17 | 3343853 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture


Five Killed in BitCoin Mining Accident

~ memory heap collapse blamed ~

~ logic probes attempt to reached trapped miners ~



Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:14 | 3344206 negative rates
negative rates's picture

I lost 3 guys on weed harvest last year, turned purple half way up the hill and couldn't breath. I left um for the buzzards, but it's tough out there.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:29 | 3343878 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

It's difficult to explain but the network was designed so bitcoins have to be "mined" by computers using special hashing algorithms.

A broad comparison is a p2p torrent system, miners run very powerful computers to keep the system fast and smooth and in return they get paid every so often.

So, bitcoins "don't exist" until a miner extracts them, there is a limited number they can find each day but all bitcoins originated from a miner somewhere. These miners now run hundreds of ASIC machines in hopes of finding the bitcoins for that day and in return they power the network and consistently check it for integrity.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:41 | 3344013 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Every ponzi needs at least one input of cash.  It sounds like this ponzi has two.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:48 | 3344056 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

Please expand, I don't get what you are saying?


Bitcoin is not an investment, it is a currency.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 18:09 | 3344691 Haole
Haole's picture

Every person who's been on ZH for over three years needs to 1) know the definition of a Ponzi Scheme and 2) know enough about the topic to avoid looking like you're out of your depth when you stick your toe in the water.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 23:15 | 3345731 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture

Papasmurf has problems grasping abstract concepts. Its okay, we're on the same side as gold and silver - even if you don't use bitcoin.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:50 | 3343680 Victorio
Victorio's picture

Flip the switch. 

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:56 | 3343719 TwoCats
TwoCats's picture


    I've been considering that question for some time now as I dabble in bitcoin trading.  As best I can tell there are about 2 ways the authorities can attack the currency:

1) Create a mining capacity greater than the current 40-50 THash/s of the bitcoin network.  This represents a significant investment of computing resources, but certainly within the capability of a nation-state.  The outcome of this attack would be chaos within the bitcoin community.  Witness the disruption caused by last week's blockchain fork.  For several hours, the major exchange was not accepting bitcoin deposits.  I expect this attack to become significantly harder, and perhaps become unfeasable, as ASIC-mining proliferates and the currency and its associated mining community grows.

2) Block the exchange's DNS and/or access to financial markets.  The former would be only temporary, as it wouldn't take long for the exchange to be rehosted on TOR.  The latter would be more permanent, but has the legal remifications of freezing the users' fiat assets, similar to shutting down an online gambling site.  There are multiple exchanges, but Mt.Gox hand'es 80-90% of the volume.  There is a proposal for a distributed exchange (Ripple) that would be invulnerable to this sort of attack, but any such proposal relies on some sort of connection to the traditional banking system.

So for now, bitcoin exists because TPTB aren't interested enough to shut it down.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:23 | 3343892 Matt
Matt's picture

method 3: coerce the mining pool operators, who control 70% of the processing power.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:26 | 3343911 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

They can also spam the blockchain.  To keep bitcoin decentralized, every transaction ever made is kept on every computer.  Would be easy for the NSA and CIA to pass some BTC back and forth until the blockchain becomes so large it is indigestible.  It is gigabytes already.  There are proposed solutions (thanks for the link, Hazek:  Nerds are clever but this is a tough problem. 

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:35 | 3343965 GFKjunior
GFKjunior's picture

I've heard that the recent massive growth in the blockchain is due to Satoshi Dice becoming very popular. I too am interested in the proposed solution.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 19:55 | 3345094 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

A solution has already been implemented. " * It is smaller than 10 thousand bytes. * All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger. * Its priority is large enough (see the Technical Info section below)" This has largely stopped Satoshi dice spam. It also means any one who wishes to send BTC back and forth to grow the blockchain will be paying for every transaction.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:44 | 3344031 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Bit-con can be taken down any time it serves a purpose.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 19:34 | 3344992 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Titan, the No 1 supercomputer, gets roughly 10 Thash/s. It would take at least 2 Titans to kill the Bitcoin in a 51% attack today, but besides the resources it would rise legal questions. A coordinated attack needed secret planning and testing when at the same time a lot of personnel is involved, and an attack coming from a few hundred different IP addresses only would not be efficient in my view.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 20:55 | 3345301 Quisat_Sadarak
Quisat_Sadarak's picture

Perhaps the true genius is that bitcoin is a virus which consumes 100% of computing resources, and keeps TPTB's resources busy frantically trying hold on to their currency hegemony instead of image processing the latest hi-res drone snap shot of peoples backyards.

Clear to bury/move your phys in your back yard again bitchez!   ;-)


Tue, 03/19/2013 - 01:27 | 3345905 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

A Bitcoin variant of Stuxnet, that might work on Windows but not on an open source OS.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 23:18 | 3345737 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture

Papasmurf again not doing his homework.

A 51% attack requires INCREASING amounts of computational power. This is not a system in equilibrium, once you start to pile on hash-power, there's an immediate reaction. Even then, all you can do is try to spend your own coins, nobody elses.

Seriously man, if you're going to try to be critical, at least don't embarrass yourself. You haven't even demonstrated being knowledgeable about the very thing you criticize.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:48 | 3346057 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

If I was big and powerful, controlled politicians and states - and I wanted to bring down BitCoin, I would identify which cities had the most compute power, and arrange for selective power cuts to take place. Hell, even a spontaneous "maintenance window" of selected internet providers would do the trick just as well - as those nodes would be knocked offline, and would be unable to contribute.

(Terrorists can be useful if you want to blame someone.)

It's really very easy. If there is too much compute power on the BC network, it is easy enough to make arrangements for this to be reduced.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 18:34 | 3349987 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture

Oliver Jones, yes I see you've brought out the tired old trope of "what if they cut the internet off globally", etc... too bad what they're attacking is decentralized in nature. But I guess in some bizarro dimension they get every country in the world to agree ... right?

Hell, they can't even agree on non-binding resolutions amongst themselves, and they're supposed to orchestrate a worldwide power and internet outage?

Man, you have to get up and go outside for some air - something is not right over there.

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 04:42 | 3351292 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

Clearly you have not been paying attention.

During the Egyptian uprising (Arab Spring) in 2010/2011, it was notable how quickly the authorities managed to cut off all internet access. It's not even fantasy - it's already been done. So it's not exactly paranoia on my part, but simply a recognition of history.

Of course, one doesn't need to shut off every node - just the cities where the majority of hashing power is held. A state-controlled supercomputer (with its own power supply) can do the rest. BitCoin is dependent upon power infrastructure, and that is something that's very easy to tamper with - especially if you have the will and the means to do so (read government.)

But it is not only governments that can strike: You should read up on solar flares - and what they did to power infrastructure last time they hit this planet. (In 1859, last time a big flare struck, all the telegraph lines were burned out. In 1989, a flare only 1/3rd of the power of the 1859 one took out power to an entire Canadian province.) We're currently going through a bit of a storm in solar flare terms, and I wouldn't like to be holding my money in BC if the next flare (which will be of the same strength faced in 1859, by the way) happened to pass a little bit too close to our planet...

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 08:27 | 3351573 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture

Yes, you can modify BGP routing for an entire autonomous zone. Yes, civilization uses electricity. Yes, cosmic disasters can strike without warning.

Is there any common thread here you'd like to explore? Such as "extreme circumstances doom < insert anything > ? >

Its quite illuminating that you have to cast your net so wide in an attempt to discredit bitcoin. Hell, to discredit every modern aspect of our lives.

Your agenda is quite transparent.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 17:00 | 3344429 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture


And this applies to PMs as well or any other mode of money not recognized by the Central banks as payable values to offset debt


So you use bitcoins or gold, you do your transactions with whatever retailer or private entity.

Eventually that retailer or private entity will have to convert that bitcoin or PM to fiat currency. Why. Because most debts are dollar denoniminated.


How many of you are paying your mortgage in bitcoins or gold?

How many of you are paying your taxes in bitcoins or gold?

I bet a very few of you are buying food and gasoline in bitcoins or gold.

I bet a very few of you are paying your utility bills in bitcoins or gold.


And even if you could pay your food, utilities, mortgage, and gasoline in bitcoins or gold - I would bet that the person you did the transaction with had to convert those bitcoins or gold to that DAMNED fiat currency.


Until the fiact currency crashes and is no longer respected (which I and most of you don't respect anymore), fiat is king. I wish I could barter for most of my goods. I wish you and I could get away from this fiat crap but the fact is, it dominates the form of payment of goods, services and debts.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 20:43 | 3345233 Quisat_Sadarak
Quisat_Sadarak's picture


"How many of you are paying your mortgage in bitcoins or gold?

How many of you are paying your taxes in bitcoins or gold?

I bet a very few of you are buying food and gasoline in bitcoins or gold.

I bet a very few of you are paying your utility bills in bitcoins or gold."


The above are not the questions you should be asking.


You should ask "how can I prevent the central bank from devaluing my savings?"


You should ask "how can I prevent any govt from stealing an arbitrary % of my savings?"


You know the central bank will devalue X-currency, so you can buy the ultra cheap X-currency notes with fewer BitCoin/Gold/Silver.  


You would always have the option of converting from BitCoin/gold/silver to X-currency.


The main reason BitCoin/Gold/Silver/Or-whatever-non-fiat-currency is that you are less prone to state control and state theft.  No absolutes.   People should be very skeptical of this new currency and they should be skeptical of fiat as well.  I doubt a perfect currency solution will ever be devised.  That should not prevent you from utilizing a better system -- maybe it is better.  It seems to have a lot going for it in the plus column.


Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:53 | 3343697 SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

Never said it did.  But I prefer to invest 100% of my resources into acquiring more physical as opposed to buying bitcoins.  Just my preference.  Invest as you see fit.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 17:16 | 3344495 CMURRAYR
CMURRAYR's picture

Well, actually it would reduce the amount of money i could spend on gold and silver. Feel free to put your money into it, but if you're honest with yourself you will agree that you are doing it more out of speculative considerations. This is being pushed by people who, in my opinion, have not read/understood Mises or Rothbard. Creating something just for it to be money is not what money is! Or to say it more clearly, what would you advise your parents to invest in, in order for them to safeguard their pension: gold/silver or bitcoins? The evident answer makes it all clear.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:16 | 3343849 jdelano
jdelano's picture

Maybe I'm getting toooo jaded here, but if I was a Eurocrat and I knew that the Euro was going to fail and we'd ultimately need to transfer everyone over to a new IMF globalist electronic currency, I'd probably design it, launch it, and publically deride the hell out of it until people began to view it as a way to usurp the kleptocratic elite and actually started using it....  Begs the question...who exactly is the wizard behind the bitcoin curtain?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 23:22 | 3345750 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture

I see paranoia is alive and well on Zerohedge.

Hey, I wonder about all those cars that get made - who is it that decided gasoline was the best answer? You sure don't see a big push into diesel for passenger cars - even though they'd get a shitload more mileage.

Now that is a real collusion problem, not bitcoin.

How do you control something decentralized? How do you even begin to contemplate such an impossible task?

The "wizard" are people who are sick of the existing system. It is an open source project - and this always boggles my mind when someone claims the contrary - but code can be learned and examined by most intelligent people.

The question is - are you intelligent? Bitcoin certainly hopes you are.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 05:54 | 3346064 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

Do they use the GCC compiler, by any chance?

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 18:37 | 3350004 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture


I see you've dragged out the old "But..but..but.. what if there's a backdoor/vulnerability/etc..."

Look at the sourcecode, its out there for you to read at your leisure. But then again, if you're that paranoid - why are you on an internet-connected machine to begin with?


Wed, 03/20/2013 - 05:52 | 3351295 Oliver Jones
Oliver Jones's picture

If you have been paying attention, you will understand that the source code is not the last place you should look for a backdoor.

Google "Reflections on trusting trust" - a reasonably short ACM article written in August 1984 by one Ken Thompson - and educate yourself.

I'm not paranoid - I simply work in computer security, and a methodical outlook is required to be successful in this field. (Knowledge of, and an interest in, previous hacking attempts is also useful.) KT's compiler attack was over 29 years old, so it is neither the stuff of fantasy, nor is it cutting-edge. That means you should be aware of it, if you wish to claim any credibility in the field of computer security.

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 08:30 | 3351581 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture

Please point out the specific bitcoin compiled flaw then. You can do that, can't you?

I look foward to your exhaustive researched report on the matter.

That is... if such a flaw exists. Just like your widely cast net regarding planetary disaster and the internet boiling off into space, I'm really curious as to why you seem to be trying so hard, and producing so little.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:59 | 3344116 Silver Bully
Silver Bully's picture

'Still prefer my physical precious metals.'

I do as well. Bitcoin has its own ecosystem and economy. 2 recent events are affecting the bitcoin/USD exchange rate:


1) The reward for successfully mining a data block used to be 50 bitcoins. That rate was halved in November 2012.This is a natural part of how bitcoin operates - it gets harder and harder to mine bitcoins when there are more people attempting to find them. The mining difficulty automatically ratchets up to keep inflation in check.


2) The working class bitcoin mining rig currently uses the GPU from pc graphics card, the same cards used to power today's video games. These processors are more efficient at crunching bitcoin's data blocks than your standard desktop cpu. Here's the rate that an ATI 5770 mines:

ATI 5770

Price: $136

Avg Mhash/s: 212.83

A new type of bitcoin mining technology (ASIC processors) have began to ship late last year/early this year. These processors were specifically created to crunch numbers like bitcoin blocks. They are an order of magnitude more powerful than GPU's. This makes every GPU mining operation obsolete overnight:

BitForce Little Single

Price: $649

Avg Mhash/s: 30,000


The way Bitcoin works, the more overall effort is being made to mine BTC, the more difficult it gets. The data automatically becomes harder to mine, which in turn controls BTC inflation. As these new ASIC-based rigs begin to appear in the market, it will increase the difficulty of mining bitcoins, squeezing out the weaker GPU miners. In effect, only those with free electricity or an ASIC rig will be able to cost-effectively mine bitcoins. This is happening now in 2013, likely causing the short term rise in the exchange rate. When does this bubble pop? Likely once the GPU miners disappear or finish switching to ASIC rigs.

TL;DR - The recent rise in BTC value likely has little to do with Cypress, the EU, or the USD and more to do with how bitcoins are mined, and short term technology advances.

Note: I own no bitcoins, nor am I mining them. DYODD.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:40 | 3343613 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

Worth me re posting:

Do you not remember the article 5 days ago about the CIA and FBI spying on all USA citizens bank accounts???

They are calculating how much money the USA will earn with this new “tax”. Plus, they will be able to retroactive the “tax” based upon account balances as of 1/1/2013.

This is coming to Amerika and they know exactly how much to “tax” you already!

Shit!  I go surfice it to say, that the Global Criminal (Intelligence/Bankster) Crime Sydicates have already had thier noses in The American Peoples Private Accounts. 

They're about to "John Corzine" MF Global the whole world. 

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:46 | 3343640 CH1
CH1's picture

The state is utterly out of control.

It will be interesting to see how many blows people will take before they give up their abject obedience.

How low must they be brought before they give up their god?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 17:12 | 3344481 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

>How low must they be brought before they give up their god?

About 20% of the population will always take it up the ass from their masters, no matter what.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:51 | 3343686 seek
seek's picture

This would end up being a tax on the 1%/10%. Seriously, the average US savings account balance is under $4K. They could take it ALL and it amounts to maybe a couple weeks of Ben's printing. They'll have to go after other assets.

The big checkpoint for me on my list-of-bad-things is a national property tax.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:13 | 3343816 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

what makes you think the 0.01% have their money in US banks?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:46 | 3344044 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

I agree.  But they have some walking around money here.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:54 | 3343703 resurger
resurger's picture

NY Times Headline sometime in the near future.

"Basel III requires the world Central banks to instruct smaller banks to levy a one time tax on all customer current and savings deposits between 2-7%"

Because dear depositor, we now can no longer generate Net Interest Income by lending you worthless money. 

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:02 | 3343751 Croesus
Croesus's picture

401K's will be the target, not personal savings accounts, imho. Average 'Merican doesn't have shit in savings, but they love 401K's because of the company match.......and that represents a lot of wealth that wouldn't take much effort to steal....

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:19 | 3343869 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

I agee. I think it is quite likely that all the investments in US citizen's 401k accounts will be quitely cashed out and exchanged for "Patriot Bonds" of "equal" value early one Saturday morning in the not too distant future. If you don't want to do your patriotic duty and willingly comply then you must be a traitor. And you know what they do with traitors don't you?


Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:33 | 3343947 Hi Ho Silver
Hi Ho Silver's picture

They aren't going to steal our 401ks. They are simply going to reinvest them for us.


Now move along citizen, nothing to see here.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 18:11 | 3344699 philosophers bone
philosophers bone's picture

Hey Toolshed, I had the idea of "Patriot Bonds" a couple of months back.  I think I used the term "US Patriot Secure Bond Trust" or something similar.  With a name that cool, the people will buy into it, particularly if there is a war and the proceeds are used to fight the terrorists.  It will also help if there is a stock market crisis, with a rush to bonds so that interest rates go negative, bond prices rocket and the Fed can transfer it into 401k's at a profit.  We wouldn't want the Fed to take a loss.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:15 | 3343833 ChacoFunFact
ChacoFunFact's picture

Harvest Time  


“When the government is able to collect tax and seize private property without just compensation, it is an indication that the public is ripe for surrender and is consenting to enslavement and legal encroachment”


“A good and easily quantified indicator of harvest time is the number of public citizens who pay income tax despite an obvious lack of reciprocal or honest service from government.”


-Behold A Pale Horse


Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:41 | 3343618 statelessman
statelessman's picture

physical is great, but having some BTC is not a bad idea.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:42 | 3343621 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

It is not Bitcoin 1 ECB 0 - it is Integrity 1 Fraud 0

Somethings are still right in our world

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:43 | 3343627 Lost Wages
Lost Wages's picture

The new global one world digital currency is so naughty! It needs a good spanking!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:44 | 3343637 resurger
resurger's picture

Beside the BTC rising, now embrace yourself for green DOW in:







Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:50 | 3343681 eclectic syncretist
eclectic syncretist's picture

Damn I sure hope Bernanke get get this overstuffed bloated pig to hold up for just a couple of weeks longer so that I can take fullest advantage of this GOLDEN opportunity.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:45 | 3343645 jeebus
jeebus's picture

6 months ago nobody was talking about bitcoin. Now everybody knows about it! Cat is out of the bag and it ain't ever going back! Next stop $100!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:28 | 3343919 Matt
Matt's picture

and stop after tha, $5!

This is exactly what happened in 2011: from obscurity, suddenly tons of media coverage, boom, then bust.

Severe volitility risk, to me, is a much bigger concern than concerns of the power grid or Internet going down for a long time, or a secret government plot to double spend coins with super computers.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:46 | 3343648 seek
seek's picture

I'm actually a big surprised we didn't see a pop in the BTC exchange rate today, but I think it's still a bit too cutting edge for most people (who haven't even discovered gold/silver yet!) to think about it.

But it is interesting, the confiscation move by Cyprus would be impossible to perform on bitcoin without everyone's private keys.


Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:15 | 3343832 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

the banks (and online transactions) in cyprus are still closed,  that's why

we didn't see a pop in the BTC exchange rate today

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:47 | 3343654 VonSalza
VonSalza's picture

Are bitcoins save from banksters and their muppet politicians?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 23:26 | 3345761 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture

Bitcoin is as safe as you can personally make it. That means backups and cold storage, among other methods. Not too dissimilar from how precious metals are put in hidey-holes and lockboxes.

Because bitcoin is run by peer-to-peer consensus, you can't just decide to recompile your client with different rules and expect the network to abide by them. (You could, but your changes would be rejected by the consensus.)

That is the real strength of Bitcoin - you have to CONVINCE people with rational and logical reasons why they should upgrade or do anything with their clients.

There is no CYPRUS HAIRCUT here.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 03:31 | 3345984 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Depends, do you think the banksters (and their henchmen) would stoop to waterboarding everyone to collect their bitcoin password(s)?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:48 | 3343668 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

Bitcoin is a form of civil disobedience. I like the idea but haven't really looked at it. TPTB hate barter systems so fuck them, I'm all for it.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:51 | 3343683 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Shit, in that case E-bay is a form of civil disobedience.  Sorry, nothing is safe until some form of laws and contracts and real consequences for bad behavior is restored.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:31 | 3343937 Matt
Matt's picture

eBay is a market/auction, not a barter service. Craigslist is more where real barter (i.e. good/service for good/service trades without any money) happens.

It is only after things collapse completely, then the new super authoritarian government takes over, then that collapses that we will see a return to true rule of law, I fear. And that could be centuries away.

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 18:39 | 3350018 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture


Amazing, even when offered a chance for freedom - the prisoner pines for the known confines of his guilded cage.

Regulators must be really great on the planet you live on - the problem is, nobody else can see them but you.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:53 | 3343692 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Up with those BTC mining doozerrabobbers!

Down with banks!

The bank of me, PMs over the side of the boat and exchange brokered by math!



Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:53 | 3344084 Freaking Heck
Freaking Heck's picture

Completely agree Azzhatter but personally I don't want to confuse a speculation with an investment. I'll vote for almost anything that usurps the banksters because watching them burn is worth it....but there aint nothing like the shiny stuff if the SHTF.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:49 | 3343672 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Wake me when I can buy diesel by the ton with bitcoins.  When fruad is the status quo, possession is the law, period.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:55 | 3343708 hazek
hazek's picture

With respect, but you can't do that with gold either, does that invalidate gold?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:57 | 3343724 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Bullshit, I have never had any trouble exchanging physical gold or silver for anything or the fruits of anyone's labor.  Two summers ago I even paid a plumber in silver to run some new sewer lines.  How stupid are you?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:06 | 3343762 hazek
hazek's picture

I could say the same things about Bitcoin. I bought VPN, register a domain, bought hosting space, bought SD micro card, donated to a bunch of people, bought reddit sub, etc


But like me you also can't claim everyone accepts gold, you only need to watch this: to observe this fact. But so what, it doesn't invalidate gold and neither does it Bitcoin.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:13 | 3343812 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Bitcoin has no physical presense, just like fiat.  It is only as "safe" as the system that created it, just like fiat.  An ounce is an ounce is an ounce.  I am not saying people, myself included, won't perform transaction using bitcoins someday, but it is no safe store of value, period.  Investing your wealth in bitcoin is no different that investing in any fiat, it's success will be dependent on how trustworthy the system is, and if you think systems cannot be gamed, you haven't been paying attention.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:18 | 3343861 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

>  It is only as "safe" as the system that created it, just like fiat.

I've had the same email address for 20 years. I suspect the system will be up for a few more days.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:26 | 3343912 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Perhaps, but you continue to ignore the question of hacking/gaming the system.  Ignoring issues doesn't make them any less true.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:59 | 3344119 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

Servers get hacked all the time. If people store bitcoins on a server, it will get hacked and they'll be stolen.

Bitcoin itself is serverless. Bitcoin the protocol can't be "hacked" but bitcoins can certainly be lost if one doesn't practice due diligence.

But since you've been trading bitcoins, you know all this, right?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 20:29 | 3345181 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Here's a way to buy diesel with BTC.

Direct your mt.gox account to deposit funds directly onto a prepaid gas card. Then go buy gas. (not that I expect any bullshitting BTC detractor to actually go do this, no doubt there is a valid excuse in his mind not to)

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:35 | 3343963 hazek
hazek's picture

It is only as "safe" as the system that created it, just like fiat.

You are absolutely correct. However it's a very safe system, orders of magnitude more safe compared to fiat.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:44 | 3344033 CH1
CH1's picture

He doesn't care, Hazek, he just takes pleasure in tearing things down.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:35 | 3343967 Matt
Matt's picture

"An ounce is an ounce is an ounce"

only within a system of trust. Buying or selling goods or services with precious metals with complete strangers means you have to go through the whole process of validating the purity and quantity of each unit.

The scams in gold are far more sophisticated and on much larger scales  than bitcoin is, or may ever be. I'm not talking tungsten in the center; I'm talking about that multi-billion dollar scam involving advanced metallurgy where the fake gold required advanced equipment to distinguish it from the real deal.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:59 | 3344125 overqualified
overqualified's picture

not to speak about the 1:100 leverage of physical:paper gold

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:56 | 3344107 overqualified
overqualified's picture

nothing is money until you can pay for booze, blow, and bitches with that (My own 3B money theorem).

So bitcoin are money.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:15 | 3343837 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

> How stupid are you?

We're both so stupid we bought bitcoins at $5-10 and have been cashing them out for PMs as they approach $50. How stupid are you?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:30 | 3343921 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Have been doing the same.  Read my posts moron.  Still not a safe store of value and I don't recommend "parking" in anything you can't touch.  When fraud is the status quo, possession is the law.  I hope that isn't paper gold you have been buying.  So, you admit to selling bitcoins and buying PMs, I am confused, are you trying to help or hinder bitcoin's case?  What a tool.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:36 | 3343976 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

Glad to hear that you're smart and followed my advice from last year to use Bitcoins to get PMs. My respect level for your acumen has gone up.

The fact that you took my advice shows me that my presence here has helped you and Bitcoin. Put a gold star on your forehead for being such an excellent student.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:55 | 3343709 Conman
Conman's picture

Wake up. you can now. Just excahnge  it. Its like saying wake me up when i can buy gas in the US with euros. There are BT currency exchanges.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:59 | 3343737 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

So you're saying that bitcoin is no better than fiat currencies and other paper promises.  I am confused, were you trying to help the case for bitcoin or hinder it?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:35 | 3343971 fuu
fuu's picture

It's all faith and promises.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:58 | 3344415 Silverado91
Silverado91's picture

Faith & Promises - Yes youi've described the govt's legitimacy, their paper money and the banks and what all that's based on perfectly!!!

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:38 | 3343986 Conman
Conman's picture

Neither, i could care less. I dont own any bitcoin or gold. Just trying to disprove your little proof. Bitcoins hold value(today) jsut as USD or EU does (today). Who the fuck knows what happens tomorrow.

 Difference with a botcoin(conspiracy theories aside) it is not controlled by a government. Not trying to make any point just dont understand why people bash bitcoin when fiat is so much worse.


Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:48 | 3344057 CH1
CH1's picture

dont understand why people bash bitcoin when fiat is so much worse.

Some people just want to burn things down.

Others are paid to ridicule things their bosses don't like.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 14:59 | 3343735 seek
seek's picture

That can be "arranged" now, I'd be willing to bet we'll see sporadic point of sale support within the year.

Bitcoin can be used to buy virtually anything now, but the issue is there's usually an intermediary involved. The big shift happens when there's no intermediary and purchases happen directly. That's possible now for gambling, internet services and an increasing number of online shops, with sporadic support at bars and eateries in large cities.

It'll be curious to see if TPTB move on bitcoin soon. It's perfectly positioned at the moment to pop up as an alternative in crisis conditions (provided the internet is available, of course.) With phone-based wallets and banking bypass, a Cyprus-type bank holiday could get bypassed rather quickly in the right environment.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:10 | 3343796 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

> It'll be curious to see if TPTB move on bitcoin soon.

I've wondered the same and came to this conclusion: If TPTB move overtly against Bitcoin, it'll drive the price up. If they make any moves that favor Bitcoin, it'll drive the price up.

TPTB are fucked. It will just take a few years for them to figure it out while Bitcoin bleeds them dry and we get a piece of our world back.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:41 | 3344003 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

did you wonder about this scenario:  i'm the owner of most central banks and i can create any and all fiat currency (frn, cdn, aud, euro, ..) at no cost.  i want to destroy btc.  what do i do?  my cb'si start buying btc at no cost since they can print the fiat confetti left and right.  the cb's  drive btc to 1oz of gold for one btc or more, for example.  and then i change the rules and say that sdr issued by bis will now be a digital currency used for international trading and all cb's accept this new rule.  so now all cb's start selling btc and buying sdr, even if it is naked selling, since it costs them nothing.  remember?  i control and coordinate almost all central banks' printing.  i can print fiat to buy or sell (naked) btc  and i sell the shit out of it after many btc fans sunk all their savings in it.  so, all my cb's sell btc and buy sdr.  and many others sell btc and buy this new sdr as well.  the result is a complete collapse of btc price vs. sdr and gold.  you may retort:  yeah, but now you have to make delivery of btc on your naked shorting which will drive btc sky-high.  really?  i will just settle the transactions for fiat confetti and leave you with the option to take me to court.  just like paper gold selling will be settled in fiat instead of delivered in physical.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 15:42 | 3344024 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

Please do try to buy all the bitcoins, Mr. Banker. The price will climb so fast you'll make every bitcoin owner rich as we trade out for PMs and real estate.

I heartily endorse the central banks moving into Bitcoin.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 16:49 | 3344384 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

never did i say anything about "all" the btc, just enough to drive the price of 1btc to 1oz of gold or more.  follow the analysis through when all cb's coordinate buying sdr and naked selling btc.  how is that going to affect the confidence of btc as a stable currency?  do you think after it was driven up like crazy and crashed by the cb's that anybody will have any trust in it as a stable medium of exchange?  the question was how to eliminate btc as an alternative - and i gave you a scenario - by being able to spike and crash the btc that no one will have any confidence in its stability.  dont forget that cb's can manipulate the paper gold and silver market and at the end they will settle in cash rather than phyzz.  the fact that this "up and down" will make you and few others incredibly rich is not relevant.  the btc will be eliminated as an alternative currency.  so yes, you personally may get rich, but a lot of those who will jump on the wagon late will get poorer and the btc will be out of the competition.  so, at least stop pretending that btc cannot be eliminated or controlled by the bankers.  the gold/silver market is much larger and is controlled by bankers.  chew on that.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 17:04 | 3344442 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

You don't understand how the Bitcoin market works. Bitcoins get bought when they drop in price, just like gold. But bitcoins are even more rare than gold so any shortage in the market will be reflected quickly in the price.

So, if CBs buy 5% of bitcoins to dump them, the price wouldn't fall much after it rose like crazy.

Yah, let the bankers play with the Bitcoin market. I need the money.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 17:21 | 3344504 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

good one,

Bitcoins get bought when they drop in price

you mean like the paper gold gets bought when the price drops because bc's can print trillions and the price of silver/gold doesnt go anywhere or drop?  that's quite the statement "Bitcoins get bought when they drop in price".  it's all about confidence, especially in btc's case since it is in its infancy.  if btc, due to its spike and then crash via naked short selling, can be painted as another "dot com" fad, btc is done.  but yeah, those that are already in btc will get filthy rich.  but that still leaves btc dead, just like "" or whatever.  anyway, it is pure misinformation to say that btc is immune to manipulation and that confidence in it cannot be destroyed by bankers who can print money with which to buy and then naked short sell w/o having to deliver btc, instead they settle trades in fiatcos

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 17:41 | 3344590 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

I never said that Bitcoin was immune from manipulation. All assets are manipulable.

Bitcoin is immune from banker haircuts, per the topic of this thread.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 18:09 | 3344680 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

i think you said something along the lines that tptb is fucked

TPTB are fucked. It will just take a few years for them to figure it out while Bitcoin bleeds them dry and we get a piece of our world back.

and my response was that for as long as btc can be manipulated and the confidence in the btc as a credible means of exchange can be destroyed by bankers, the tptb is not fucked;  btc is fucked and is no threat to bankers for as long as they can print fiat and evade contract law by naked short selling, not delivering and settling trades in fiat, not btc. 

but i understand where you are coming from:  you speculate on the success of btc, you are loaded to your gills with btc, and now you are sort of like a penny stock pumper hoping btc  takes off, you sell, retire rich and the hell w/ the rhetoric that btc was supposed to be a credible digital currency to "get a piece of our world back".  so, pump away.  i truly think you will get rich by dumping your btc on to a greater fool some time in near future.  and that's the whole point of your present btc promotion, isnt it?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 19:20 | 3344936 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

TPTB can only stop Bitcoin by shutting down the internet. They'd slit their own throats if they did that.

They're fucked. Maybe you'll figure that out by the time they do. In the meantime, frontrunning the dinosaurs is the best game in town.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 19:31 | 3344979 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

absolutely.  now we're on the same page

frontrunning the dinosaurs is the best game in town

i've been watching btc for a while.  i think btc is a great pump and dump scheme.  i am not in yet.  i am waiting for the next correction.  technically, i think btc can go under $7/btc.  then i will load up.  perhaps you will be the weak hands that will dump btc into my lap when it is under $7.  then i will be pumping it on zh.  perhaps you and i can pump btc on the same thread here on zh.  and then, on the next leg up, when it is about 1btc=5oz of silver, i will dump all my btc on to a greater fool.  i like btc.  there's potential for profit.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 19:59 | 3345118 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

I've noticed that almost everyone believing Bitcoin to be a pump and dump also lacks an understanding of computing science, public key cryptography and P2P networking.

That's what I mean by frontrunning the dinosaurs. Horse traders made fun of the internal combustion engine once too.

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 21:04 | 3345322 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

yeah, i know.  isnt it amazing that the same, or similarly inflated, retort

lacks an understanding of computing science,...

...networking, internet, web technology etc. was used in the 'dot com' bubble era when the fundamentals wouldnt add up?

Mon, 03/18/2013 - 23:10 | 3345717 All Out Of Bubblegum
All Out Of Bubblegum's picture

And the internet kept going even after the bubble. It made many people very wealthy in the past 10 years. Most, though certainly not all, of the new wealth was made by people that took the time to understand the technology.

All currencies are bubbles. The last one out of Federal Reserve Notes will be crowned King of Greater Fools when that bubble pops.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!