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Cyprus-Troika Talks "Delicate" But Schaeuble "Won't Be Blackmailed"
Some late news indicates that the 'deal' is further away than many hoped (or rumored) earlier in the day. Welt am Sonntag reports that German FinMin Schaeuble exclaimed "I won't allow myself to be blackmailed," adding his responsibility to the stability of the Euro. Simply put, he adds Cyprus must respect the rules, insistent that, "Cyprus is a hard road to go either way; but that is not the result of European stubbornness, but a business model that no longer works." With that as background, Cyprus President Anastasiades will be meeting with the IMF's Christine Lagarde tomorrow morning with talks at a "delicate point," with his spokesperson admitting the situation is "very difficult." The disinformation-to-total-confusion train pushes on forward; beggars can be choosers and 'demanders' won't be blackmailed.
- *STYLIANIDES SAYS ANASTASIADES DEPARTS FOR BRUSSELS 7:15 AM
- *STYLIANIDES SAYS ANASTASIADES WILL MEET WITH IMF'S LAGARDE
- *CYPRUS EUROGROUP MEETING TO BEGIN AT 7 P.M., SPOKESMAN SAYS
- *SCHAEUBLE SAYS WRONG DECISION NOW WOULD DO EURO A DISSERVICE
- *SCHAEUBLE SAYS CYPRUS MUST RESPECT THE RULES: WELT AM SONNTAG
Via Welt am Sonntag (Google Translate),
The euro zone crisis has seen in her many dramatic hours. But never before, the situation was so critical as this weekend, never had the political fronts so hardened - and never was the risk of a euro exit as high as in the case of Cyprus.
Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said the "Welt am Sonntag", "We want to avoid possible that Cyprus slips into insolvency." The framework for a utility change but nothing, and the European Central Bank could guarantee their relief to Cypriot banks only until Monday. Schaeuble made clear that Cyprus itself - and not Germany or the EU - to blame for its precarious situation.
"Cyprus is a hard road to go -. Either way but that is not the result of European stubbornness, but a business model that no longer works," said the CDU politician.
...
Before the crucial meeting of euro finance ministers, which is scheduled for Sunday evening, Schäuble was adamant: he was known that he was "[I won;t allow myself to be blackmailed]" He was aware of his responsibility for the stability of the euro.
...
Economists see the wrangling over a compulsory charge concerned. "The danger of a European bank runs is latent because the banking world of Southern Europe is tarnished," said Hans-Werner Sinn, president of the Munich-based Ifo Institute, this newspaper. "Some countries and many banks are actually already broke and held only by the special loans to the ECB on life. The disaster has occurred long ago, but the public closes their eyes."
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Save Cyprus, hang a "banker".
A little old lady went into the Bank of Canada one day, carrying a bag of money. She insisted that she must speak with the president of the bank to open a savings account because, "It's a lot of money!" After much hemming and hawing, the bank staff finally ushered her into the president's office.
The bank president then asked her how much she would like to deposit. She replied, "$165,000!" and dumped the cash out of her bag onto his desk. The president was of course curious as to how she came by all this cash, so he asked her, "Madam, I'm surprised you're carrying so much cash around. Where did you get this money?" The old lady replied, "I make bets." The president then asked, "Bets? What kind of bets?" The old woman said, "Well, for example, I'll bet you $25,000 that your balls are square." The president laughs, "That's a stupid bet. You can never win that kind of bet!" The old lady challenged, "So, would you like to take my bet?" The president agrees, "Sure, I'll bet $25,000 that my balls aren't square!" The little old lady then said, "Okay, but since there is a lot of money involved, may I bring my lawyer with me tomorrow at 10am as a witness?"
"Sure!" replied the confident president.
That night, the president got very nervous about the bet and spent a long time in front of a mirror checking his balls, turning from side to side, again and again. He thoroughly checked them out until he was sure that there was absolutely no way his balls were square and that he would win the bet. The next morning, at precisely 10am, the little old lady appeared with her lawyer at the president's office.
She introduced the lawyer to the president and repeated the bet "$25,000 says the president's balls are square!" The president agreed with the bet again and the old lady asked him to drop his pants so they could all see. The president complied. The little old lady peered closely at his balls and then asked if she could feel them. "Well, Okay," said the president, "$25,000 is a lot of money, so I guess you should be absolutely sure."
Just then, he noticed that the lawyer was quietly banging his head against the wall. The president asked the old lady, "What the hell's the matter with your lawyer?" She replied, "Nothing, except I bet him $100,000 that at 10am today I'd have The Bank of Canada's president's balls in my hand."
From the movie The International:
Umberto Calvini: [In explaining the "true" nature of banking in the world] The IBBC is a bank. Their objective isn't to control the conflict, it's to control the debt that the conflict produces. You see, the real value of a conflict, the true value, is in the debt that it creates. You control the debt, you control everything. You find this upsetting, yes? But this is the very essence of the banking industry, to make us all, whether we be nations or individuals, slaves to debt.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0963178/?ref_=sr_2
The Careless Whisper Saturday Evening FloriDUH News Update & Threadjacking
Accused Robber Of 110 LBS. Of Gold Was Wearing GPS Ankle Bracelet To The Robbery; Re-Arrested And Re-Bailed With Another Ankle Bracelet, Guapo Cuban Immigrant & Gold Both Vaporized; Miami Judge Says Oops.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/03/23/3302791/released-by-judge-man-accu...
http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2013/03/23/19/04/kpCcl.So.56.pdf
10:1 says that when this guy finally gets caught, he will claim to have lost the 110 lbs. of Gold in a boating accident.......
Plus one on the joke Croesus, one doesn't get to be old being a dumbass ;-)
“not the result of European stubbornness, but a business model that no longer works."
Close to the truth, but he got one word out of place. He should have said:.
“not the result of stubbornness, but a European business model that no longer works."
Yes, we must control the means of everyones production through our debt or all is lost. Its the most fucked up bunco scheme I've ever seen, apart from our own, of course ;-)
Perhaps someone should point out to Mr. Schaeuble...
that the EU is a business model that no longer works!
> German FinMin Schaeuble exclaimed "I won't allow myself to be blackmailed,"
This comes from the same man who in 1994 accepted an envelope from an arms dealer containing 100,000 Deutsche Mark; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASODa-1Cr-k. The guy who donated the money has been sentenced to eight years, the guy who took it is now Germany's FinMin.
Maybe that clears up some of your questions regarding the EU "business model".
Morning, all. Well it's Sunday (morning in the eastern US, noon-ish in Cyprus). Is it fixed yet?
It was all fixed last year ,or so I heard on CNBC.
They wouldn't lie to us,only Juncker does that.
What the crowds in Cyprus need right now is a strong leader, one who is ready to unite the masses and take back control! Hail Cyrus!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-OYKd8SVrI
I guess the bailbondsman is either pissed or stinky rich all of a sudden.
Are you sure it wasn't Corzine?
I was so surprised that movie was made, it explains why they tried alot to keep it low key. Calvini was correct, it's all about making everyone a slave of debt. Get rid of the debt, you have no slaves.
Translation: "we've got you by the nads". When the day is over, the money masters will do whatever it takes to keep their scam going... so..... I'd kill them.
You can hang every banker in Cyprus, or the whole world for that matter, and it still won't bring back one cent of the customers' deposits, nor do anything to prevent the ongoing collapse of the island. You won't "save" Cyprus pandering to humanity's lowest common denominator.
Compare/contrast ---- Cyprus and Iceland.
You could throw FDIC in there too. FDIC and Iceland do about the same thing when they get a failed bank.
-- The bank is closed and everything is frozen
-- The owners lose their equity, getting last place in the asset line
-- The big depositors lose the larger part of their deposits, getting first place in the asset line
-- Small investors get their insured deposits back the next morning at a different bank
How hard was that? And anybody faking financial reports goes to jail.
Big problem for EU and ECB and Merkel and her government is that they all have been faking their financial reports along with the banksters.
Gawd, I love the Icelandics.
Apart from the fact that they have NOT installed a gang plank, a couple hundred feet above one of their volcanos for Pythagorizing banksters, they're doing this mess damn near perfect.
There's also their ancient Thagomizer for "negotiating" successfully with banksters........
-- http://www.flickr.com/photos/78773715@N05/8141541693/in/photostream
The can will be kicked, but they are running out of cans. It's ironic that Christine Lagarde is part of this. She was in a documentary where she lambasted Hank Paulson for not bailing out Lehman Brothers. Her argument was that you have to bailout any business or government that can cause collateral damage. Her argument was essentially that money can ALWAYS be printed.
This argument appears to be losing it's appeal. For, anyone with half a brain knows that you can't solve a debt problem with more debt. Of course, you can for a period of time, but eventually the debt problem grows into a monster. That is clearly where we are today when Christine is ready to stop giving away money to insolvent institutions.
Cyprus will not leave the Euro and the banks will not melt down. Not yet. Instead, depositors will take a big hit. This will be the moment when the bailouts ended. It will also be the moment when the debt bubble began to unravel.
My bet is the ECB and the Fed have a few more cans to kick, but by mid-2014 they will run out. We have about a year before this whole thing melts down.
In the meantime, gold and silver are the play. Today they are both bargains, but that won't be the case in 12-18 months.
www.goldsilverdata.com (mining stocks)
Won't a doubling or three of the gold price improve the credibility and scope of action of central banks, by giving them more capital?
And for that matter, can't the ECB (and the Fed for that matter) operate with negative capital?
If they can, why would they ever run out of cans?
Why will hyper-inflation take off now that not just savings but economic activity itself is repressed?
How can you abandon fiat legal tender when it's the only way to pay taxes?
Are we entirely sure that "inevitable collapse" isn't just wishful thinking?
the FED can operate with negative capital as long as the USD is the global fiat reserve currency, no prob - the ECB would have more problems with that, though since it keeps it's profits to build up equity since inception it still hase quite a lot of leeway there, enough to survive the worst Cyprus outcome
the big, new and unseen thing is still this deleveraging going on - particularly in the banks and hedgefunds - if this stops we could indeed have hyperinflation. a 5% chance for the British Pound and/or the USD in 2013, according to the imho best estimation
chances of rain, sorry, collapses
----
rising gold prices do indeed make the CBs positions improve - for all of them except one: the holder of the global reserve fiat currency
and so Jamie Dimon and Blythe Masters will continue to bash gold for the greater glory of King Dollar with quiet applause from behind the curtains
WAT? I mean, Is that so... My information is somewhat different.
The "general reserve fund" looks like it could accumulate up to the value of the set capital amount of €10.76B...but the paid in capital is only €7.5 or so.
More interesting information is here. When you count in the capacity of the other Eurosystem NCBs to absorb loss it looks a little better.
But all these numbers look wafer thin compared to the gouge taken out by a sovereign default or Euro exit.
But my larger point stands... namely, so what?
Per that send link above, the National Bank of Canada operates with negative capital. So do the Czechs. And the Israelis.
Euro would do fine. Is in fact a global reserve currency in its own right (dollar is not the reserve currency).
The dollar is not going to hyper-inflate for the same reason that the Euro and the Pound will not. Namely that there is enough stuff of value in the US, EU, and Great Britain that these currencies will not go to zero - there will be demand for these currencies to buy valuable corporate assets, natural resources, real estate, etc. These are what effectively create a bottom under the currency. Zimbabwe went to zero because ultimately there was nothing anybody wanted to buy in Zimbabwe.
The day that the Fed finds it valuable to carry gold on its balance sheet at market value, then poof, it will be revalued.
But carry on, Ghordius, by all means. Don't let the data and common sense stand in the way of a good story. Tell me again mom how we're all economic slaves of the United States... that always puts me to sleep feeling warm and fuzzy...
But in the real world, seems the troika have this "goldilocks" thing down to a tee. They just tell goldilocks that if she sleeps in the wrong bed, they'll fukin shoot her.
Money will be printed to cover the holes in G-SIFI, taxes/regs/bullshit will keep a lid on velocity, and goldilocks sleeps well.
don't get me wrong, I fully agree with the fact that any CB can go on even on negative equity - it's the political side that would clamour more if we reach that stage - and this depends also on the state of the NCBs, which have also quite a loss absorbing capacity
I just wanted to explain that we have political groups in europe who are keen on having the ECB well funded and would start long discussions if this funding would be in any way compromised - which is funny if you compare with the FED
anyway losses would depend on the size of the hit - and this is all scenario-dependent
I also don't think that it's likely that the Dollar, the Yen or the Pound will hyperinflate, and your example of Zimbabwe is apt, imo
I'm not keen on making the "economic slaves" case at all, just commenting facts - thx for yours, btw
ECB's liability in Cyprus is limited to covering the first 130,000 for any one investor or corporation's accounts.
Banks can fail.
Same as any other commercial organization.
The one and only reason to avoid bank failures is to fend off transparency. Failures result in law suits, civil discovery, identification of false reporting, and then the inevitable pitchforks-and-torches calls to prosecute banksters and toss their human property out of office.
Remember: Karl Marx pretty much has his head up his keester describing what should happen under his dream of Communism. But he is either spot on or a bleeding optimist where he describes the evils of High Capitalism.
Wait a minute. Who's blackmailing whom?
<Next man makes a move, the nigger EU gets it. - Blazing Saddles Cyprus>
Hold it men, he's not bluffin!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjPBp6DOwgU
pods
Here we go. The EU is back -peddling. I'll bet "Troika" is looking to Z/H for guidance! I'm not kidding. ( Beautiful Minds)
Here's the 'guidance'
This weekend the Sun conjuncts Venus in Aries and by the end of next week will also be conjuct with Venus AND Mars AND Uranus.
i.e. a bold, forceful, creative move is called for by all parties
Don't let this go past the 27th, for then Mars will be in direct square to Pluto in Capricorn.
If it goes past the 16th of April, when Mars enters into Taurus, it's fucking curtains for all parties. A repeat of Fall 2008.
05-05-2013, +/- 2 weeks, it's all (rolling) over. Some sooner, some later.
Anyway.
A repeat of 2000. And 1929ff.
Even the astrology points to economic doomsday, huh? Interesting.
not only that but the Mayan Calender is pointing at significant "spiritual activity" during this time. according to their mathematical projections during this year...20345, we are to experience a strong sense of harvest and need to commune with insects of the summer moon. obviously this means Cypriots must burn various palm oils and strike up certain incense (sp?) in order to "be one with the entity." i for one was not surprised that many people were suddenly found in the streets as a consequence.
Cool. They may burn incense and palm oil but gasoline is more volatile (if they can afford it by summer.) Creates a greater frenzy among the bats which eat the insects thus disrupting their nocturnal feeding cycle. Since you mentioned "being one with the entity" I have to admit that's an angle I hadn't considered. Beats me but the gasoline should do the trick as far as the bats. Also the people in the streets. Also the insects.
"Fear and Loathing in Nicosia." here come the bats...
Yes, you nailed it. lol.
Did the sun say anything about next week's lottery numbers?
Here's the guidance...keep the game going, don't ever do this Cyprus thing again..if you survive this one. Bank insolvency must be kept hidden. If you have to print money to satisfy liquidity...do it, but don't tell anyone, pretend like everything is good.
Other advice: stop buying sovereign debt..let interest rates punish irresponsible borrowing.
What does that mean?
Which bank?
Which disaster?
Some countries and many banks are actually already broke and held only by the special loans to the ECB on life. The disaster has occurred long ago, but the public closes their eyes."
Right. What is the 'business model that no longer works' that Schaeuble speaks of?
Evidently, it's roping together disparate countries like the Whymper party on the Matterhorn, so that when one loses its footing, they all slide off the cliff.
The EURO, bItCHeZ: a business model that's broken.
It's a business model that no longer works.
That's because you broke it, asshole.
Now fuck off.
It's because it's a business model that never had a prayer of working and was broken from conception.
"You hear that Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability. That is the sound of your death."
That business model is working in Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Cayman, Singapore, London, and countless other places.
The Troika is attempting to break it by confiscating depositors' accounts. If Cyprus agrees then it is broken forever.
It is working in those places for now.
A few depositors start to withdraw money, collapse.
A few write-downs on the assets, collapse.
If we're talking about the worldwide banking system being insolvent, then I agree with you.
If we're talking about the premise that a stable country can operate a successful offshore banking system, then I disagree with you.
All those countries have realish assets to back those positions,with the exception of
Luxemburg.Cyprus has just removed the foundation from underneath the pyramid.
If you have ever brough a a tower down,it wobbles for a short time,until it goes
over its centre of gravity.then very rapidly accelerates.We are in the wobble stage.
Its only a question now of which way it falls ?
They're trying to do the same in Ireland, make their taxes as high as French..
It used to be that a man could make a living and a difference by taking one (or more) of five actions: make stuff, move stuff, fix stuff, teach stuff, or guard stuff.
These days, the focus has taken a most destructive shift: Take Stuff.
This is a problem. A big problem.
Sometimes ZHer's call out their junkers. Not here. I'm calling out my upvoters. Is this arrangement (rewards for taking vs. producing) not completely fucked up? WTF can be done about this?
People have to deal with this. There are only a select few, it seems these days, who actually can make stuff, move stuff, fix stuff, teach stuff, or guard stuff. Say what you will about peak oil or unsustainable energy expenditure -- the underlying thought process here is completely fucking unsustainable!
I've said before I've had some limited success in half-waking some sheeple to the issues, but we seriously need a substantial push into the collective hivemind. Or else the taking will continue.
Thoughts?
invest in lead
+1
Personal defense is personal responsibility, ultimately.
Well, there are a few things slpping under the radar, as the fiat world focuses intensely on Cypriots imposed debt obligations and all the elitist machinations that come with it.
Here's one...
(Reuters) - A private, four-year Missouri college is so concerned about mounting debt of college graduates in the United States that it no longer will take students who insist on taking out loans.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/19/us-usa-education-loans-idUSBRE92I12120130319?feedType=RSS&
Now admittedly, not Ivy League...but the elitist Ivy League is a little lacking on the economic substance vs economic reality front these days.
Starting life with a clean debt slate is the new/old reality ;-)
Enemy-Within: I appreciate that, and there's a start.
From that article:
"Kids nowadays are not very sophisticated with money. Debt is a big problem all over the country."
Absolutely. They don't teach jack shit on money, or currency, in K-12. On my end, I tell other kids don't go to college unless you want to be a doctor or something that's really going to have a net payoff and aligns with your personal values. (If only they'd developed personal values beyond the persuit of entertainment...)
Instead I tell them to learn a trade, go the temp agency route, or try entrepreneurship -- but above all, one must understand _what_one_loves_in_life_, and then understand the proper route for creating more of that in the world. The rewards (I really, really hope) will come.
Cheers, bud.
Debt (or other pretty names like loan, promisory note etc) is nothing more than a claim on future earnings. If people really understood what that meant and how it impacted their wealth I think (hope) different decisions would be made.
By extension, debt-backed currency and social benefit Ponzi schemes represent institutionalized theft from future generations.
Fiat currency and the welfare state legitimize, even glorify, theft by politicians.
Both of these large-scale larcenies must be repudiated to restore a productive economy.
You remembered what the nom de guerre stands for and against, thank you ;-)
It is my opinion that everyone should not attend college just for the sake of aquiring a piece of paper to be framed and hung on a wall or at worst, off to the attic because the studies mastered there were completely useless in paying off student debt.
The former is pretentious snobbery, the latter a waste of time & effort. Both are pushed in an incessant marketing campaign of "go to college" at any & all cost where the only long term benefit are to the ones making the loan.
Stetson is very good but if it doesn't complete the whole there is no point in the long run and I'm grateful to one of my mentors for the opportunity. God rest his soul. One has to look inside himself, advice is just that, advice...not a demand of service.
But, the trades is what mattered most to me and I went that route.
You can learn more about life and people from living it than will ever be taught from a static professor and his chosen doctrine. You can design & build things that people will marvel at long after you are gone. You will touch poor people with your generosity while firmly demanding payment for services rendered from those with plaques on their walls or in their attics, informing them they're stupid (in the nicest possible terms) of their ineptitude in analyzing financial spreadsheets, social mores & law that led them to pay you and move on to the next.
There are two types of people in this world that I do genuinely hate. The ones who allow themselves to be subjugated and the ones who do it to them.
Warmest personal regards my friend,
nmewn
Instead I tell them to learn a trade, go the temp agency route, or try entrepreneurship
Yeah. But...
The systems of actual production and commerce are accelerating in their complexity.
The individuals who can actually improve and sustain economic production (your five modalities of "stuff") of any kind are becoming more and more rare.
Which is a good thing, because fewer are actually needed.
The horror of the 19th century was that the few were compensated 1000x more than the workers, and there was no possible justification.
The horror of the 21st century will be that the few will be compensated 1000x more than the workers, and there will be ample justification.
In the foreseeable future, the individual of median talent will be marginal - that is, the net value of his economic contribution will be... zero.
And then half of us will become "takers" of stuff. (Or starve.)
I have absolutely no answers for how society should structure itself in this kind of world but that world is coming.
The only hint emerging from conversation with other tech savvy people I know is that human beings will be valued for their service and contribution to each other, and not for their contribution to economic production.
How to square that with every other instinct and tradition of humanity... thankfully not (solely) my responsibility.
There are plenty of things people need, that ordinary people can do, in the absence of college degrees, stock markets, computers, banks, bank loans, etc.
I have a friend who originally was a business major. She didn't like it, so she dropped out, and got a job working in a family-owned bakery. She wasn't making squat, but she did learn the baking business hands'-on. Last year, she moved accross the country (from WA to PA), and now runs a small business selling home-baked bread at the local farmer's market. She's got a huge brick oven, and she controls the whole process from start to finish, including growing the wheat and barley. She makes enough to support herself, while providing a fairly-priced, superior product to the local community.
Therein lies your answer to the question in how society should structure itself going into the future. "Megalo-multinational my ass": Do something small-scale, that allows you to help the people around you. It brings people together, and does a lot more for the world than the "steal from everybody and give to myself" bankers do.
There are plenty of rewards in the world, besides money.
We have to stop the "getting something for nothing" mentality.
Build it, earn it, own it. Don't listen to those who say you can't.
And pass it on (like A seed crystal).
And thanks for calling us out, IC3.
Change the constitution of Cyprus to require every citizen to own and carry a gun.
Too many Brit retirees there. It would capsize the entire island when they all ran screaming to the other side.
There are already a lot of guns on Cyprus, typical Cypriot family often has a shotgun, like in Greece
In fact there are probably about 100 million privately owned civilian European guns
Americans are not the only ones with firearms, you know ... we Europeans don't bluster about them so much, but we know it is the last resort against the Nazis and fascists, with whom we have some very valuable experience ...
But they are indeed the last resort ... the 300 million guns in America don't seem to have done anything to stop the march of American fascism ... yet
Facts of gun ownership and policies in countries around the world:
http://www.gunpolicy.org/
"must respect the rules"
Did he say that with a straight face? when did going after depositors become part of the "rules"?
The OTHER rules. The rules of power- obtaining it, using it and holding onto it.
No that was a typo or misunderstanding.
You must respect the "rulers".
They must respect the rules...
... that constantly change on a moment's notice...
... in favor of the bankers.
My two primary takes in this Cyprus/EU fiasco:
(1) Cyprus needs to do a double default on its banks and sovereign debt, essentially telling the EU to pound sand. Let the ECB eat all of those losses they essentually backed and forge a new future under a different financial regime. I think if the Irish leaders in charge had to do it all over again in 2010, they would have given the EU the big middle finger . Cyprus should do the same, despite the shock of finanical collapse.
(2) Depositors throughout the EU need to take note what the leadership in Brussels has essentially forced upon its banking customers in Cyprus, and conclude that it is willing to do the same in other jurisdictions. This isn't a 'tax' it is theft (and if the latter isn't true in present tense, 'blackmail' certainly is. 'Who's next' should be the very next question. What an utterly stupid position to take from a policy standpoint.
Schauble "won't be blackmailed" because he is constantly being blackmailed by the constant threat of a Greek default. The only difference? Greek bank debt would tear a nice hole in German bank balance sheets. Cypriot bank and sovereign debt? Not so much. Schauble is one of my favorite EU figures, but he appears quite the hypocrite on these issues.
EU is proving to be a bully once again in the financial affairs of a country with little policy options. The best way to deal with a bully is to kick him in the balls, despite the wounds that might occur thereafter.
Introduce the same PR bailout.
Bank of America Parody
How many much longer do we need to keep the Euro on life support?
Greece, Spain, Italy, Cyprus... Someone else in a month or two.
Pull the plug. Call time of death.
How long do you thing Hugo Chavez was dead or being sustained only by machines before they announced his death to the world. And that's only one man. Whole countries, economies and monetary systems you have to have the chess pieces arraged the way you need them to be before you actually make the announcement. That takes time. Sometimes a lot of time.
Cyprus needs to be another small country that made the banksters eat it!
Iceland defaulted and the quickly recovered instead of being debt slaves.
Cyprus it's time you join Iceland in defaulting and jailing banksters.
Stop listening to the Troika trolls.
I'm not trying to split hairs but in truth, Iceland has not really recovered. Their tourism and fishing is hot again but they're really dragging along in everything else. I believe their growth has actually deteriorated a bit. However, I still believe, as probably everyone else does here, that they made the right choice and if they just dont do anything crazy, they could pull out of this in a few more years - quite nicely.
Tourism and fishing is honest work that provides a real product or service to someone who wants it. Banking, on the other hand......
They got rid of a millstone that would have dragged their tiny island nation under the waves of the Atlantic for decades. Agreed, they made the right choice. What they really regained was their own sovereignty. They aren't going to have their chain yanked capriciously by bankers in a faraway land.
Now, on to the next tiny island nation with a millstone of bad debt dragging them down....
In terms of banking, perhaps Iceland should never go back to where they were.
The fearmongering put before Iceland at the time by the EU was staggering. The reality is that Iceland took a big hit, bounced back to positive growth, but hasn't fully recovered from a finanical collapse. Same can be said with many economies after the 2008-09 global recession, except many in those countries that haven't recovered are still debt slaves.
I still recall some officials in the EU claiming that no one in the international community would ever trade with Iceland if they rejected being debt slaves.
Makes you wonder how that fishing industry of yours has bounced back, huh? Over time, other industries will find reliable trading partners and bounce back as well. You just don't need it to be banking.
Asset - read this article: dead on with your comment about EU threatening Iceland that no one would trade with them. Explains a lot of dirty EU tricks and the history of the EU too. Again - thanks to another ZH'r for posting this...
http://synonblog.dailymail.co.uk/2013/03/the-new-soviet-union-cyprus-sho...
This article also makes you wonder what last minute tricks the EU will pull on Cyprus to get them to capitulate.
Only if they fall for them. It's easy to make it look like nobody will trade with you when you're on the verge of insolvency- because nobody WILL trade with an insolvent partner (they could be left holding the bag at any minute). But the minute after you actually declare insolvency and restructure, your balance sheet changes dramatically and it makes you MUCH more attractive to trade with than just a short time earlier.
Funny how that actually works, huh?
The solution is simple. They the EU, ECB, IMF (the Troika - of Trostkyists) - should let Goldman Sachs create a synthetic drivative CDO with various government (Germany, Netherlands, Greece, Cyprus and even US, Mexico and Canadian) bonds with AAA to CCC ratings, get S&P to give the whole thing AAA rating, and sell various "tranches" yielding 3-20% to other banks, pension funds, and greedy yield chasers who can load up on them with borrowed money at near-0% from the Fed, BOJ, etc.
A TRILLION dollar CDO with a thousand tranches should do it for now.
After all, the last time the scheme unraveled, we found the answer and "fixed" the problelm. Recovery is on the way, and prosperity is just around the corner. We can do it again. The Central Bankers don't even need paper and ink to ease quantitatively squared, and this time could even issue bonds with negative yields - for which surely there will be a huge demand because these bond backed by "whatever it takes" would be the only "real" money in the world!
"Whatever it takes" cannot take a single silver bullet. It will absord tons of them, all fatal.
It's funny that countries can join the European Union, but are never allowed to leave? It is nothing more than a suicide pact and nobody is allowed to change their minds.
Remember when the European Union won the Nobel Peace Prize?
LULZ
It's like the Mafia.
It's the Roach Motel. You can check in but you can't check out.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave! "
http://www.lyrics007.com/Eagles%20Lyrics/Hotel%20California%20Lyrics.html
Great comment, Hopium! Look at this article another ZH'r posted tonight -
http://synonblog.dailymail.co.uk/2013/03/the-new-soviet-union-cyprus-sho...
There's a quote in there about how in the EU no votes are temporary but yes votes are forever.
Shop For Confederate Currency:
http://collectiblecoinsguide.com/confederate_currency.htm
Schaeuble Just showed his hand. Effin TWAT!
I hear Lagarde will be wearing Prada when she arrives...
No solution is palatable but perhaps it would have been wiser to simply garnish everyone's bank account for a percentage as an interest free "loan" rather than as a tax. People at least would have the expectation that at some point in the future there would be a return of their money albeit without interest.
Peter Pan, ladies and gentlemen. Peter Pan.
Um.... no. Sorry.
And your point being?
You need to understand that the damage will be paid for whether we like it or not and whether we agree with it or not. There is no doubt that this culling of accounts is a serious breach of property rights, but do you have an alternative?
Even if Cyprus defaults (which by the way I am not against) it still has to pay for its way in this world and I suspect it is not a self sustaining economy as is the case with Greece.
My view is that depositors should be given ownership of the banks given that the bank's equity has been blown up. Perhaps the new management will be wiser about to who it lends and with what level of security.
Sorry, but your solution is both polly-annish and more importantly, shares the same basic flaw as most of the other solutions- it's an attempt to "fix" something in a special one-off way where hundreds of years of law and rules already exist to define how to deal with failure and then how to recover from it.
The old recipe exists for a reason. Cyprus should follow it if only for their own best interest because there are only WORSE outcomes for them in the longer run if they do not. Is Greece not close enough to them they can not see what following the dicates of the Troika will get them?
Whether Cyprus has a "sustainable" economy absent their outsizede banking sector or not should not enter the equation. What if they don't? Should it continue to be propped up by artificial means anyway? Every economy is or will quickly become sustainable absent arbitrary outside propping schemes. It has no choice but to become so.
Giving ownership of the banks to the depositors has been tried in other Euro nations already (Spain, Italy). Didn't work out so well because the debt was never extinquished. The debt just eats through the new capital like it did the old capital. If the debt is extinguished (default) then yes, I would agree in principle to that idea.
It seems that the only thing we agree on, and perhaps it is the most imprtant thing, is that the situation in both Greece and Cyprus is not self sustaining regardless of the outcome, therefore why continue the mirage.
When Greece and Cyprus are forced to become self sustaining you can be sure that it will be at much much much lower standard of living.
In any case I did not say that my proposal would be the final solution. It was only put forth as a means of allowing some continuing recognition of the depositors' contribution.
I would only remind you of how the South Koreans were sucked into handing over their gold jewellery to their government when the Asian crisis hit. Did they ever get it back? No. The same thing has happened here. No receipt will be given.
I am sure we are both disgusted with what is happening.
Oh, I agree that there are a lot of people running around right now looking for interim solutions. And I'M being polly-annish thinking there's a chance of avoiding one. Just that "interim solutions" have a nasty habit of becoming permanent and often worse in the long run.
Peter Pan deposits - just checking for VD
You obviously come from a long line of stand up comedians. LOL. More importantly what are your thoughts on the Cyprus issue? By the way I am not the one who down voted you.
cmon you'd all like to see it
Will ANASTASIADES MEET WITH IMF'S LAGARDE IN LAGARDE RAIDED PARIS APARTMENT?
http://www.dw.de/french-police-raid-imf-chief-lagardes-apartment/a-16686...
Lagarde: Will you sleep with me for five billion euros?
Anastasiades: erm, well, okay.
Lagarde: Will you sleep with me for five euros?
Anastasiades: What do you think I am, man?
Lagarde: We've already established that. Now it's just a question of price.
No, Jack.
What I'd like to see is a critical mass of real humans recognizing Lagarde as a very dangerous outlier.
See how simple it could be?
You infidels! Kneel before the Holy Stability of the Euro or be burnt!
Really, I can not see much difference between the stability dogma requiring the crushing of peoples lives and middle ages dogmas requiring people be tortured and burnt. Up to a few years ago I still believed that the human rights enshrined in our constitutions were the dogma and money could be burnt for saving human values not the other way around. Well I see now why constitutions are gradually ditched in favor of international treaties. Of course before coming to that human values have been covered with consummerism fat which has made as quite inflammable indeed.
"We want to avoid possible that Cyprus slips into insolvency."
if they are not already insolvent, than what the hell is this all about?
I think what they meant to say is that they want to avoid the possibility that Cyprus exposes everyone else's insolvency.
Time for some LaGarde Tan(tm) sessions
The real solution? Have the ECB buy the Greeks bonds the banks hold at original principal. Let the ECB eat the Greek losses since they required them.
well that would have actually made sense! on the other hand the German Finance Minister left open the possibility of being extorted...so all hope is not yet lost.
OK, I'm missing something...
Let's just say Cyprus capitulates.
The EU pumps the Cypriot banks full of money.
But people have been pulling money out every chance they can get the last week.
And will probably continue to do so.
So.... a bunch of empty banks are worth... what?
The way I see it, Cyprus is right back to disaster in a matter of weeks to months.
This seems like a big game of musical chairs.
Terms of the first bailout take a lot of hemming-and-hawing. After that, successive supplemental bailouts go a lot easier because only one side can say yes and the other side can't say no.
NoDebt - correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point the EU/IMF/ECB - whatever is bailing out Greece, Cyprus, and soon possibly one of the other PIIGS. When does this stop? Someone SOMEWHERE in the banking industry over there has to realize this is a disaster in the making.
Oh, yes. The banks are well aware of that. The idea is to make other people (taxpayers) foot the bill while they get their balance sheets to Minimum Safe Distance before detonation.
If you get the feeling that all of this monetary insanity since 2008 has been "playing for time", you're right. But the banks aren't just sitting there hoping and praying it's going to fix itself- they're sucking up all the money and capital they can scrounge together like their lives depend on it. Because they do.
There is an excellent article on the site RIGHT NOW about how things played out in central/south American debt crisis in the late 80s/early 90s that should be required reading for everyone scratching their heads and asking "What the fuck is going on? Are these people crazy?" They're not crazy. They're following the play book. YES, THERE IS A PLAYBOOK FOR THIS SORT OF SITUATION. Read it and all of this will make (somewhat) more sense.
Can you post a link to that article? Thanks!
It's still on the front page. It's called something like "when do we call it an insolvency crisis?"
That was the piece by Michael Pettis, now at Beijing University enjoying the air pollution
He talks about how recognition of the Latin American debt crisis in the 1980s, was stalled for several years, until the American banks got enough extra capital to be able to recognise and absorb the losses
However, as some commenters have pointed out, that was back then when US banks who made stupid loans to South America, still could make some money from games in other areas to offset the losses
Now, the difference is much of the world is overloaded with debt ... even with stalling for time like we have done since 2008, it's not clear we can ever get to that point where banks will have wonderful 'extra capital' from some other realms where everything is all roses
Here is the Pettis article on ZeroHedge
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-23/michael-pettis-asks-when-do-we-...
Yeah, now they get that money directly from the central banks of the world. No need to scrounge for money in the real world when you can just have it spoon-fed to you.
'Cyprus is right back to disaster in a matter of weeks to months'
Case in point: Greece defaulted twice (so far). Cyprus will do the same, since the bailout still leaves it with unsustainable 140% debt-to-GDP.
Cypriot banks will steadily drain capital-controlled euro cash, much of which will get smuggled by the Mob back to the mainland, where it's unrestricted.
Since Cypriot banks remain heavily levered under all scenarios, the impending deposit drain brings on Bailout II as night follows day.
Just as there's never one cockroach, there's never one default.
Easy answer.....you ain't gettin' your money out of the bank anytime soon.
Anyone notice how the percentage of deposits to be confiscated keeps going up with every passing hour? It was 9.9% when the story broke last weekend and with every article the number keeps climbing. 14%, 25%, 40%, 70%.
Yeah, it's another European bank mess, all right. Take the first "rescue" number that hits the tape, increase it by an order of magnitude and that's your real number.
I did catch that - and I wonder if it's an old trick where you know no one will stand to have even a penny taken from their deposits. So you tell them you're taking 9, then 15, then 25, then 50, then everything. Then when they're at their most furious, you tell them you'll just take 8 percent and they calm down, felling like they got away with something when in fact 8 percent was what you wanted the whole time.
Double post
I noticed that too........I'm starting to wonder if, in the end, they'll just take the original figure of 9.9% and just move the decimal over to make it 99%.....
Lets assume it goes to100% confiscation.
So what reason for a bank, then?
SuicideDeluxe.
Well, it seems Cyprus already has it's own currency...
http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1054-capital-controls-in-c...
Who knows maybe soon the euro will be available in several flavors, like all products in decline. Ah, what a rapid entopy spike!
Here it is folks....
They just voted on measures a little while ago which will seize portion of everyone’s savings .....from:
Armstrongs blog at: http://armstrongeconomics.com/armstrong_economics_blog
When will Schaeuble's title change to FinanzFuehrer?
No need. He's already FinanzFUBAR.
A week ago the Cyprus Solution might have led to a Target2 imbalance problem as deposits fled the periphery into the Northern League. Today, owing to the confusion, stubbornness and rhetoric, the EU risks system-wide capital flight. Will there be system-wide capital controls? Will the bearded alchemist of last resort step in to both fund the EU and keep his custodial currency low? A betting man would guess yes, and yes.
:-)
Precisely.
Interestingly PM's are still on sale (and haven't reacted like Bitcoin).
I hope all hell breaks loose tomorrow!
Somebody's going to have to fill the wheelbarrows with cash because Cyprus still is a sideshow to the main event and the show must go on.
More cap flight in peripherals means bigger wheelbarrows.
The Bearded Buyer of Bankruptcy shall rear his Charger to the rescue.
That barely audible, high-pitched sound is the hum of electronic wire transfers getting louder and louder.... And so it begins. Greed kills.
That barely audible, high-pitched sound is the hum of electronic wire transfers getting louder and louder.... And so it begins. Greed kills.
And who's waiting, eager to show solidarity?
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/Yazdir.aspx?aType=HaberDetayPrint&ArticleID=1...
Holy shit! That's beyond my humble languages skills! Turkish all right!
A newspaper in Cyprus reported that the country's president warned his friends family and associates to get their money out of the country four days before this debacle was widely publicised.
No honor among thieves, shafting their countrymen.
The EUSSR political elite and their gangster bankster puppeteers think only of their own profit. They want rule by their chosen clique, and everyone else is a mere debt slave.
"EUSSR political elite and their gangster bankster puppetters..."
mhmm... let me see
your example is about the elected president of Cyprus, his governor of the CB of Cyprus and his finance minister
who has a haggling spat with the governments and the national bank governors of the Netherlands, Finnland, Germany et al
ok, fine for me, but then why do you call it "the EUSSR"? What are you trying to say with "EUSSR" at all?
That the sovereign members are utterly crushed by a center and are not allowed their own parliaments, political parties, taxes, budgets, armies, navies, diplomatic services, national banks, currencies, options to join or leave shared plans, to make treaties with other sovereigns, etc. etc.?
This is what I would understand by mixing the old Soviet Union with the EU and so crafting a simily, but you seem to imply a completely different meaning that I utterly fail to grasp
Again and again, noone in a decision-making capacity describes the Cyprus problem accurately.
"We want to avoid possible that Cyprus slips into insolvency." Cypus the country is not insolvent, though its getting there. Cyprus the government is unquestionably tits up. The question is how the consquences of that insolvency are to play out; now, or tomorrow; brokered, or does the market let rip; merely fiscal insolvency, or does the government toast the banking sector at the same time.
"Schaeuble made clear that Cyprus itself - and not Germany or the EU - to blame for its precarious situation." Good luck on that; all are guilty. The EU flag is a display of a circular firing squad of unsustainable economic policies.
"...but a business model that no longer works," The Cypriot govenment is not a business. Methinx he is trying to piggy-back on the implicit credibility of a business which, at a mininum, is open for business. The Cypriot government has a fiscal model that doesn't work, a banking model that is ruinous, and a political model that can not solve either. Businesses that fritzed up go under, but governments, no.
German and French banks are the losing counterparty if any nation in Europe refuses to pay for the oversized government and banks. This 'bail in' is an attempt to get ordinary people to bail out the thieving oligarchs who bought politicians so as to profit off the no-reserve central bank system of feudalism.
"The Cypriot govenment is not a business" - what is meant by business model is a friendly, encouraging attitude by the government versus their banks when it comes to foreign tax-dodgers and money launderer
How does a country of .003% of the population and .19% of the GDP of the Eurozone (re)call into question the viability of the Eurozone? That is the question that should be asked. Why in the name of Jesus Bernanke would you want to save a monetary union so completely disfunctional and structurally flawed at almost every level that you have to worry about Cyprus?
The euro is a political construct not an economic one. Heath the Horrible Heath of the UK admitted in private that he lied about the 'common market' because Britons would not enter the EUSSR if they knew the truth that it was intended to be the Fourth Reich, a zionist ambition for the central bankers.
The Euro is a fu'ing plaundering structure.
And they're not bailing out "countries" nor "governments"; just stealing money from the people, with the complicity of guys who aren't really government, working for the bankster's elite which have been playing worldwide with papers backed by thin air, selling them over and over again under derivatives and other "products" at an ammount that doesn't exist in the real World except we find some alien to buy the entire Earth.
There was an article, weeks ago here in ZH, "All is well". which is one of the best pictures of reality I've read these days:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-06/guest-post-all-well
The only solution for the people is pushing their countries to default, let the banks fail, prosecute banksters, heads of "institutions" such the IMF and corrupt politicians, have a new fresh start, setting rules to finance, fucking EVOLVE. Otherwise nothing is going to change.
Maybe it's time for Cyprus to say Fuck You to the Krauts!
Putin is doing that for them. Cypriots knew their lifestyle was lavish with incoming Russian money from oligarchs who stole that money from Russia. I have no sympathy for Cypriots who knew that ordinary Russians suffered while Cypriots collaborated with the thieving oligarchs.
The ECB and IMF also protected the thieving dual passport zionist oligarchs, and thought they could steal the deposits with no consequences for their precious political depraved money grubbing bureaucracy EUSSR.
And I'm sure the message by Putin and the crew will ripple through Europe in ways we haven't seen since the Cold War.
As for those poor Crypriots, not all those folks lived it up "Livin La Vida Loca" lifestyle, although I'm sure there were a few who made a killing partonizing w/ certain Russians and vice-versa.
Ya fucked up muppets! Ya TRUSTED us!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/9950083/Ukip-urges-Brits-t...
Farage says get your money outta Spain NOW!
Take another loan and then default the fuck out of it.
FinCEN is after one of my friends now for his BTC mining. I told him this would not end well. He put 15K into the mining hardware early on. Last he visited me, he set up a blockchain wallet for me and transferred me a bitcoin. I later used half of that BTC to buy a t-shirt from another Ron Pauler. One transaction just for the hell of it. It worked. Now I guess we are criminals and it looks my friend is not my friend anymore over the deal.
The only thing I suggested to the guy a couple of days back was to sell some BTC to cover the intitial expenses because I think it's a bubble right now and then buy back later when after bubble pops. Now somehow I am the asshole!(?) I know that I am an asshole but this is bullshit. Don't take it out on me. I am sick and tired of getting shit raining down upon me as though I caused the whole fucking problem in the first place. I had nothing to do with it really. I got a Ron Pual t-shirt for my daughter out of the deal. So what? I like my hard assets and must continue working on improving my extremely poor boating skills.
Wait, how exactly is FinCEN "after your friend"?
And is he actually accusing you of spending BTC you got from him?
'My friend became a Bitcoin miner ... and all I got was this lousy Ron Paul T-shirt.' -- LOL!
This is going to be one hairy tale without ending and without any happiness.
I wonder if anyone from Iceland is watching?
"According to Wikipedia: ”In most legal systems, . . . the funds deposited are no longer the property of the customer. The funds become the property of the bank, and the customer in turn receives an asset called a deposit account (a checking or savings account). That deposit account is a liability of the bank on the bank’s books and on its balance sheet. Because the bank is authorized by law to make loans up to a multiple of its reserves, the bank’s reserves on hand to satisfy payment of deposit liabilities amounts to only a fraction of the total which the bank is obligated to pay in satisfaction of its demand deposits.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/22/the-battle-of-cyprus/?utm_source=...
Interesting read here about the mindset of the bankster thinking. Sorta looks like some serious hokie-pokey going on here. The remarkable thing is, here is a glimpse of what's to come for other countries like the USA, and the fed is going to be the nasty landlord come to collect, or throw the nation out into the streets of anarchy. It really is amazing, and would make for a good movie some day with all the sub-plots behind the big actions happening. Who profits?
Pray for Cyprus...Greece...Span...Italy...ah heck, the whole darn continent and those very large islands too....and then the other continents also...and Syria...and Iran...
>word pad < ouch> I'm left handed/
Stay awake London. Contract Law is about to be questioned/