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BitCoin Mania Accelerates

Tyler Durden's picture




 

While Friday's 'hope' triggered some selling pressure in Bitcoin (in EUR), it appears the dismal reality of Europe's new normal has spurred a 'great rotation' as BTC just hit EUR60 for the first time ever...(from EUR36 before the initial Cyprus news last week).

Source: Bitcoincharts.com

 

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Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:21 | 3372988 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Until it gets shut down.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:22 | 3372998 redpill
redpill's picture

Yep, the moment that Bitcoins poise any real danger to TPTB they will immediately and universally be equated with terrorism.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:23 | 3373003 cifo
cifo's picture

The banks open tomorrow then?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:32 | 3373058 labestiol
labestiol's picture

Bitcoin, bitches

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:37 | 3373102 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Your BitCoins are belong to Us! Bitchez.

DadddyO

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:47 | 3373163 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

If a meteor hits the earth and destroys all computers running the bitcoin client at the same time, then your bitcoins are gone. No thanks.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:53 | 3373169 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

If the King of Trolls is for these abstract coins, then I'm against.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:12 | 3373339 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Zerohedge.com doesn't accept them as a form of donation... Enough said.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:22 | 3373412 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Never the less, coins bitches!

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:24 | 3373430 hawks5999
hawks5999's picture

Indeed.

C'mon Tyler. Put your virtual money where your virtual mouth is.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:26 | 3373448 King_of_simpletons
King_of_simpletons's picture

Can we eat bitcoin ?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:47 | 3373593 BTFDemocracy
BTFDemocracy's picture

This morning, Coinbase.com had 'capital controls' in place, and bitcoins were not available for puchase due to 'rolling blackout'.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 19:33 | 3374556 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

how do you put a price on 610 petaflops, that thing in the market never existed, it's like all of the super computers ever build combined multiplied by 5... sure it aint cheap...

 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:13 | 3373350 TJ00
TJ00's picture

If that happens, it's an Extinction Level Event, so you won't be around to moan about it.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:25 | 3373445 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

Let's call this the MDB consensus.  The fact that the MDB thumbs up ratio is running 3 to 1 tells us all we need to know.  I remember trying to tell the ZH crowd about physical silver back in the day.  It was like talking to a wall. ROFL.

Silver For The People

The Bitcoin Channel

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:27 | 3373456 Long_Xau
Long_Xau's picture

Seeing the number of up-votes you are getting for this post has to make many people rethink stuff very carefully and critically.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:30 | 3373477 bagehot99
bagehot99's picture

But dollar deposits created electronically in the Fed's basement are all hunky dory?

Explain the fucking difference to me, like I'm a child, because I don't see it.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:54 | 3373637 HulkHogan
HulkHogan's picture

Dollars are backed by the US military. If you don't accept them, you get bombed.

Bitcoins are backed by ... nothing.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 18:42 | 3374496 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Which is part of the reason BTC will survive and USD will not.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:17 | 3373727 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

MDB did an excellent job of exposing the stupidity of the argument that bitcoin is "risky".  

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:55 | 3373638 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

If my aunt had a dick she'd be my uncle.  

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:05 | 3373675 troublesum
troublesum's picture

BITCOIN - NEW WORLD ORDER CURRENCY?

It is my belief that the destruction of all currency seemly on purpose by the TPTB was the end goal for the New World Order to be complete so they may push all of us at once into a New Global Currency and destroy all National sovereignty. I believe that many on ZeroHedge would agree with that preface? Questions I would ask my self (attempting to front run the future panic) were designed to predict and then adjust to what the future will bring. I think many of us would ask the same questions

1) What's the New Global Currency going be? -(What features or properties would it have) -(And Most important... WILL I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT)

2) How they would convince us to adopt it in mass?

For the first question it seemed obvious from the start that it would not be Gold or Silver. Assuming goods and services stop being priced in fiat paper and become priced in Gold or Silver they literally lose all ability to manipulate are purchasing power and more importantly lose the ability to control us. So if not a finite recourse as the New world Currency then what else would they try. I began to think that they would come up with some other paper resource. Ill be honest my first thought was they were going to crash every nations economy before the US which would make the US the fiat of choice and thus get everyone on the New World Currency which would be the dollar. But overtime I did away with my ego that we would some how be spared (as this just didn't fit the model). With no other fiat paper I could think of to push us into the last option left is for it to be 100% digital. There is no other way around it. For them to get their One World Currency it WILL BE 100% DIGITAL. But then that leads right into how we will adopt it. Based on my answer to #1 I had to assume that what ever it is it will appear the exact opposite of government fiat. You don't just crash every currency and then say here you go we have something else. I mean if all paper currency backed by full faith of governments goes belly up I'm not going to put any trust in any form of currency that was generated by them (Fool me once...). So this new Digital Currency would have to appear as if it originated from a genuine source. IT WOULD HAVE TO BE OR WE WOULD NEVER ACCEPT IT. On top of that the government would have to allow it to propagate (because if they really wanted to they could stop any competing currency... think I'm wrong... check the price of silver or gold and ask why they aren't 10x the price) but seemly be against it... right? or you wouldn't trust it... Lastly and above all it has to appear to be righteous. Out side the bounds of government control. Free from external influence and stable. Reading all that above it is my opinion and logical conclusion the best answer to what our New World Order Currency will be... well if the caption of this thread didn't give it away the answer is bitcoin. So what do you think... does the theory holds water? Or am I just trashing the righteous by the people for the people 100% digital currency that the government supposedly can't control?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:52 | 3373740 troublesum
troublesum's picture

BITCOIN - NEW WORLD ORDER CURRENCY?

One thing I would like to mention about the supposed decentralization of bitcoin is an interesting observation I made with respect to the size the block chain (share transaction record that everyone keeps on there computer). Its currently running near 7GB... 7GB!!! at some point its going to be so large that they will have to re-work it to be house on, get this... A CENTRALIZED SERVER... think about it for a second... what happens when the block chain is 100GB, or even 1TB... this thing is going to keep building and building and building.... it is the one inherent flaw in the system that is completely unavoidable... IT WILL BECOME CENTRALIZED TO SURVIVE.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:22 | 3374012 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

Have you done ANY actual research on this? There are lots of ways to deal with this such as pruning and compression, or even splitting the blockchain into multiple forks. Centralizing it is never going to happen, it would violate the entire purpose and design of the network.

The scalability goals they are talking about are on the order of Visa's processing network. Satoshidice has been a heavy load test for the system and it is performing well. As limits are approached, transaction fees will just rise a little from the present market clearing rate of about $0.04. Free markets FTW.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:34 | 3374047 troublesum
troublesum's picture

I've done hundreds of hours or reading every forums and including original emails from Satoshidice when this was first launched. But I make my points of basic observation becuase so many people adopt something on premous alone with out actually thinking something through... Your argument of compresion again only abaits the problem for a while. The design of the block chain is to store every record so no matter how you configure the multiplier IT GETS BIGGER OVER TIME to iffinity... period, end of discussion on that point.

Your argument about it being split into FORKS... fortunately I am a software developer so I can say with confidence that it would impossible to control people from spedning the same bit coin twice if there is not a unified record of accounting... IMPOSSIBLE... If I spend a bit coin and only half the network stores the transaction I could theoretically spend it again somewhere else that has no record of me spedning it yet. FORKING nearly crashed bitcoin when they released the .8 update and an ACCIDENTAL FORK was created and they had to ask everyone to down grade back to .7 untill they could fix it. The only way FORKING might even be possible is there was CENTRALIZED catalog of all FORKS and and every transaction made a check against them all... Could you imagen having to wait 2 days for a transaction to clear becuase there are 10,000 forks to clear first.. good luck with that theory...not gonna happen

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 19:29 | 3374643 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

ecXCwacw

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 20:59 | 3375031 MachineMan
MachineMan's picture

 

 

while(1)

{

     fork();

}

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 21:35 | 3375145 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

 

 

 

while (1)

   {

   if (dateStamp( bitCoin ) == DO_NOT_DELETE)

      continue;

   else if (dateStamp( bitCoin ) <= OBSOLETE_DATE)

      deleteTransactionRecord( bitCoin );

   // ...

   }

// There are computable solutions to the problem(s)!

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 21:51 | 3375195 labestiol
labestiol's picture

Yep, but it's not a acceptable solution. With this, if I didn't spend the output of the transaction, then I lose my coins just because I didn't "spend them in time".

The easy solution is to remove all transaction where output are spent (and thus are useless to compute address balances).

For those interested in the scalability on bitcoin, I suggest this link. Everybody agree that it's a tough problem, but a good one to have ;)

 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 21:26 | 3375116 labestiol
labestiol's picture

Your argument of compresion again only abaits the problem for a while. The design of the block chain is to store every record so no matter how you configure the multiplier IT GETS BIGGER OVER TIME to iffinity... period, end of discussion on that point.

I suggest you have a look at price of computational power, data storage, and bandwidth over time... (OMG IT'S GOING TO ZERO !!!)

Sun, 03/31/2013 - 21:35 | 3394704 Long_Xau
Long_Xau's picture

Hyperdeflation. Not even the bernank can turn that into "mild inflation". Yet, contrary to all mainstream economic theories, people buy more and more of those deflating goods and services.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:52 | 3373763 troublesum
troublesum's picture

BITCOIN - NEW WORLD ORDER CURRENCY?

Also another thing I obvserved about the block chain is that it conatins a record of EVERY TRANSACTION... sure the premous is that each address that sends and recieves coins in anonymous... but what happens when the gov says hey someone with this anon address had something shipped to a REAL PHYSICAL ADDRESS Ie 123 fake street. Ok so we now have a point of origin to follow and can figure out the total path of who sent or recieved what. Its unavoidable.. when this thing finally becomes centrailzed (for reasons stated above) it will also have full transperancy. You will no longer be able to hide what you buy or sell as at some one point a record will be stored somewhere with a PHYSICAL ADDRESS tied to an ANONYMOUS one

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:08 | 3373956 Greyhat
Greyhat's picture

BITCOINs are a WORLD disORDER CURRENCY! :)

 

They are produced by the people, not by central banks.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:19 | 3374002 troublesum
troublesum's picture

They guy that built it spent 3 years on it before he told anyone about it. Released it and disapeared. My counter to your claim "They are produced by the people, not by central banks.".. Prove it?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:30 | 3374033 labestiol
labestiol's picture

If you feel paranoid, there's actually something you can do.

Look at the source code (it's open source), look at the blockchain (it's public). You'll find every answer you seek

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:39 | 3374058 troublesum
troublesum's picture

You didnt answer the question did you? You just simply stated hyperbole. So again I ask. Prove that this wasn't created a governemt agency?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:11 | 3374145 labestiol
labestiol's picture

Explain me why I should care since everything is transparent ?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:40 | 3374249 troublesum
troublesum's picture

I don't think you've done any research on this... the TRANSACTIONS are transperant (thats a double edge sword becuase the only way to validate someone doesn't double spend a coin is for a complete record history to be stored and TRANSPERANT but becuase there is a complete record history the anonymity claim is COMPLETELY FALSE)... The SOURCE of the origin of bitcoin however is suspect at best because NO ONE KNOWS COMPLETELY WHERE IT CAME FROM becuase the founder is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND

Think about it for a second...

This guy supposedly spent three years on this before he told anyone about it... There had to be some major funding envoled to get this thing launched... WHO FUNDED IT?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:51 | 3374309 labestiol
labestiol's picture

I don't think you've done any research on this... the TRANSACTIONS are transperant (thats a double edge sword becuase the only way to validate someone doesn't double spend a coin is for a complete record history to be stored and TRANSPERANT but becuase there is a complete record history the anonymity claim is COMPLETELY FALSE)...

The transactions are public, but address ownership is private. Have a look at the transactions here for exemple. Do you see any names (except the one who CHOOSE to be public, like SatoshiDice or MtGox) ?

The SOURCE of the origin of bitcoin however is suspect at best because NO ONE KNOWS COMPLETELY WHERE IT CAME FROM becuase the founder is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND

Again, nobody should care. Satoshi (whoever he is) choosed to remain anonymous, and I respect that. The important thing now is to know how the system work now, and if it can be gamed by a malicious minority. 

I did my research (years ago, for months), but looks like you didn't. Take your tin-foil hat off, and get to work.

EDIT :

Think about it for a second...

This guy supposedly spent three years on this before he told anyone about it... There had to be some major funding envoled to get this thing launched... WHO FUNDED IT?

No need for crazy funding. Just one (very) clever guy. Could have been a hobby for him. Have a look at other open source projects. Most of them are not funded, just people giving free time for the greater good (and fun).

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:52 | 3374329 troublesum
troublesum's picture

Jebus.. "Again, nobody should care"... People like you are lucky people like me fight so you can survive as an idiot in a world that would otherwise eat you alive... Reverse Darwinism as its best

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:57 | 3374348 labestiol
labestiol's picture

The important thing is to know how the system work now, and if it can be gamed by a malicious minority.

Tue, 03/26/2013 - 02:23 | 3375763 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

Prove that it was not created by a gov't agency?  

 

That's like asking for proof that it was not created by krugman's martians.  You cannot prove a negative.  Here are some links for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_a_negative

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:19 | 3374189 billsykes
billsykes's picture

Ding ding give the man a prize for figuring out the con.

 

All the bitcoin dummies including a tyler or 2 also know:

  • The 256bit encryption scheme cannot nor will it ever be hacked, its not even hack able, and it is infinitely upgrade able 
  • Guys who post under pseudonymous in newsgroups are legit 
  • Bitcoin never crashes 
  • Bitcoin servers where coins are exchanged are impenetrable.  

 

 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:47 | 3374312 troublesum
troublesum's picture
  • The 256bit encryption scheme cannot nor will it ever be hacked, its not even hack able, and it is infinitely upgrade able 
  • Guys who post under pseudonymous in newsgroups are legit 
  • Bitcoin never crashes 
  • Bitcoin servers where coins are exchanged are impenetrable. 

I think you forgot this at the end of your bullet points "</sarc>" You'd be surprised how many people wouldn't pick that up.

 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 18:47 | 3374524 billsykes
billsykes's picture

Do you mean like when <sarc>  the government is always right? </sarc> 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:01 | 3374113 cpzimmon
cpzimmon's picture

Wow, that was a lot of writing.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:07 | 3374137 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

perhaps to answer,

1) What's the New Global Currency going be? -(What features or properties would it have) -(And Most important... WILL I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT)

you won't ever see it, because the latest version of fiat will be imaginary. . . even more imaginary than it is currently.  it won't exist at all.

except as pixels that can be granted, and removed, at (their) will.

some of us can see this as already happening.  some are still thinking/imagining in terms of plastic cards & fiat-dispensers, but that's coming to a crashing end too, soon enough.

if you don't have a trusted network of exchange set up, re-think your priorities, sharpish.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 21:39 | 3375152 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Amero Express, don't leave home without it (or you WILL BE arrested!)

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:54 | 3374342 putaipan
putaipan's picture

kaiser satoshi baby !

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:12 | 3373983 NihilistZero
NihilistZero's picture

"If a meteor hits the earth and destroys all computers running the bitcoin client at the same time..."

We'll all be dead :-)  At least think through your troll posts before you make them ;-)

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 20:02 | 3374614 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

epic MDB!!!!

MDB is a feature of this blog. Without him (her), we would miss a good laugh.

 

MDB SHOULD BE MADE FED CHAIRMAN, PEOPLE WOULD BE CRACKED UP WHEN THE FED CHAIRMAN HAS TO SPEAK PUBLICLY. IT WOULD BE ENDLESS TONGUE IN CHEEK LAUGHTER!!!!

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:05 | 3373681 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

Bits of Silver coins bitches!

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:39 | 3373110 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

Can I touch these bitcoins? Can I stack them up? Can I caress them and call them my Precious?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:49 | 3373173 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

While digging, if i hit a bitcoin with a shovel - will the blade br/eak?

.

What frequency Kenneth do i need to set the detector at to find a bitcoin in the ground?

 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:57 | 3373218 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

If you ask your girlfriend what would she prefer, a golden bracelet or an entry of digital pulses, which one would she prefer? With which one are you more likely to get some?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:25 | 3373442 hawks5999
hawks5999's picture

Can you give a little more detail on these digital pulses???

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:08 | 3373696 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

Yes, I can. Now, fuck off!

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:23 | 3373006 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Tools of Terrurusts!

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:12 | 3373343 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

If I plant a Bit Coin will I get ten fold in return. Bit Coin like Fiatscos are just an illusion built on a lie atop a Ponzie.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:36 | 3373087 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Honestly, all it requires is some vague government-conjured association with crime or terrorism, at which point the vast majority of businesses will simply refuse to accept bitcoin. Nothing will need to be shut down because the stigma attached to bitcoin will be enough to prevent its usage from gaining widespread mainstream appeal, thus relegating it to black market status.

People are easily swayed by arguments rooted in fear and emotion, and since this would be the cheapest route for the powers-that-be to take, it is the one which will be chosen to neuter bitcoin.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:54 | 3373152 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

this actually is what makes btc attractive

some vague government-conjured association with crime or terrorism

the common denominator between criminals and metal lovers is their dislike for government and the way government does business.  on that level, there is no diff between bitcoiners and goldbugs - both on the same side, selling fiat

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:04 | 3373282 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

According to the posts here, it seems to me that this issue did more to polarize us then to unite us. If more $$$ goes to bitcoins, less $$$ goes to metal = more power to the central bankers.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:18 | 3373392 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

that depends

If more $$$ goes to bitcoins, less $$$ goes to metal = more power to the central bankers.

each outflow of fiat weakens the banking system.  i see it this way: if there was not btc, the bitcoiners' money would be in fiat denominated "assets", probably deposits.  the bitcoiners had plenty of time to convert to metals, but they did not.  if nothing else, at least they are helping with the "cause" - weaken the banksters.  however, my suspicion is that bitcoiners see their btc in terms of fiat; as opposed to most goldbugs who see metal in terms of oz, grams, kg, ...  another concern should be that bitcoiners are more likely to sell btc for fiat as soon as the price is right for them;  as opposed to goldbugs that are more likely to pass their coins on to their kids.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:02 | 3373652 labestiol
labestiol's picture

Might be true, but it's far from being a generality among bitcoiners.
Most of us are/were PM bugs. When we discovered bitcoin, we saw its interesting properties (partly thanks to what the PM community taught us), and swapped or diversified our savings. Some are becoming critical about PMs, but it's mainly because bitcoin is performing A LOT better. We don't criticize the purpose, which is to get the fuck out of this failling banking/monetary system.

And yes, we'll sell btc once in a while, when we need fiat to buy something, as I'm sure PM bugs do. And if this great experiment is still going on when we get old, we will for sure pass it to our kids.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:49 | 3373449 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

As long as the outflow goes out of the system is all that matters. Not everyone can invest in metals because of access or lack of sufficient capital. Bitcoin at this point is for the little guy caught between a rock and a hard place like the people on ground in places like Cyprus and Spain.

Crisis will prove its value and effectiveness. There isn't going to be some orderly centralized rollout. Necessity is going to drive this revolution and show all it's strengths and weaknesses. Crypto-currency is the one weapon the little guy has to kill the central banks and current TBTF morally and otherwise corrupt and bankrupt system driving us to ruin. It also allows the governments to decouple from these parasites before they kill them also since they are also hosts in this parasitic drain on society.

 

I can't stress this enough crypto-currency (not bitcoin specifically) is the stake that we have especially if the governments get behind it and back it with hard assets that we can use to jam it right into the vampric heart of the central banks and TBTF system and also can be an effective replacement at the same time. It serves as a currency, banking system and payment system for economic transactions all at the same time in a decentralized manner. Bitcoin will just be a bridge from here to there. A new more robust algorithm that allows for more coins and options like country ids hashed to a specific coin still need to be developed.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:01 | 3373660 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

There is also one other key point to crypto-currency as long as it is opensource that is harder to undermine which is trust. As long as that code is open to public scrutiny whatever problems it may have can be called out and fixed in a public manner by anyone as long as people care enough to be watchguards. Anyone can do it if they want. That keeps trust factor from going completely out the window. We just seen that happen with Cyprus and the European banking system after today. Trust is gone, forgiveness may come later but the trust is never going to be there again not as things currently stand without some real change now.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:05 | 3373292 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

The difference should be obvious, though. Physical gold has been in use as money for thousands of years. Having the government label it now as a tool for terrorists isn't nearly as easy to do as it is with a crypto-currency which is only a few years old and exists solely in cyberspace.

Some well-timed cyber attacks coupled with phoney "revelations" that a terrorist group or organized crime use bitcoin to launder money will scare most retailers away from accepting it. People will think there's something fishy with bitcoin if, say, Amazon institutes a "no bitcoin accepted because we're fighting terrorism" policy. My point is that the whole shutting down the internet thing won't even have to happen. A lie repeated often enough will become the truth.

I love the idea behind bitcoin, but if it gets to the point that you can't exchange it for goods/services or re-convert it into fiat to spend, it ceases to have any utility or value. And in a true SHTF scenario in which everything reverts to local commerce, it's far more likely one will be able to exchange something like gold or other hard assets as opposed to virtual currency. I'm not hating on bitcoin at all, just stating my reservations.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:07 | 3373305 redpill
redpill's picture

+1

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:13 | 3373705 Mine Is Bigger
Mine Is Bigger's picture

If you "love the idea behind bitcoin," wouldn't it make sense to at least give support to people who are taking some risk to back the good idea.  If nobody supports it, it will simply die.

I personally have too much of my "wealth" stored in PMs than most people think would be appropriate.  But I put a small amount into bitcoin two years or so ago.  I trust PMs so much even the price swings deter me at all, but I think it makes sense to diversify a little.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:54 | 3373889 Long_Xau
Long_Xau's picture

Having the government label it now as a tool for terrorists isn't nearly as easy to do as it is with a crypto-currency which is only a few years old and exists solely in cyberspace.

Cryptocurrencies are not even well into the "ignore" phase and you are talking about the "fight" phase. Most of them haven't even heard of it to ignore it. Also, when they eventually decide to actually do something about it I think they will stick to what they know: letting more monetary inflation trickle down to the consumers with the intention to dissuade them from looking for alternative forms of currency and money (which will also boost precious metals).

A lie repeated often enough will become the truth.

How about you speak the truth? A lie repeated often enough leads to total collapse of confidence. There I fixed it for ya again. You can thank me later.

a true SHTF scenario in which everything reverts to local commerce

Can you elaborate on that statement? Are you talking about some force that will somehow stop those who want to and know how to trade globally from ever doing it again? Or are you talking about a big shock event that brings a limited period of readjustment? In my opinion, in such a SHTF event, Bitcoin would actually be the first one to recover and allow global trade. I don't think that is what any establishment/statist/etc. forces aim for.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:44 | 3373834 j.darkness
j.darkness's picture

Interesting point, Pseudo anonym, selling fiat is what we need to do to restructure the mess we are in.  buy gold, buy silver, and any number of familiar tangible items mentioned frequently here, why not bitcoins as well?  diversify?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:59 | 3373237 akak
akak's picture

To be honest, I am quite surprised that governments (at least the US federal government) have not yet waged a propaganda campaign equating the buying and/or holding of silver and gold with "money laundering", terrorism and tax evasion. I am sure, though, that such is in the works.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:24 | 3373435 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

this wont happen

waged a propaganda campaign equating the buying and/or holding of silver and gold with "money laundering", terrorism and tax evasion.

until the market runs out of phyzz permanently.  till that time, the banksters will continue profiting by selling paper gold.  when the paper gold/silver market crashes, then it will be the fault of those gold hoarding terrorists; not the paper selling banksters' fault

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:19 | 3373731 Long_Xau
Long_Xau's picture

There I fixed it for ya:

Honestly, all it requires is some vague government-conjured association with crime or terrorism, at which point the vast majority of businesses will simply refuse to listen to the government. Nothing will need to be shut down because the stigma attached to the government will be enough to prevent its trust from retaining widespread mainstream appeal, thus relegating it to organized crime status.

People have grown to easily see through arguments rooted in fear and emotion, and since this would be the cheapest route for the powers-that-be to take, it is the one which will be chosen to make clear to everyone that they are going for good for something better to replace them.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 18:18 | 3374415 laomei
laomei's picture

Lol, tried and failed. Bitcoins can easily buy drugs and illegal guns and they talk about this in the news at every mention of bicoins.  No one cares... in fact, it makes them even more popular.

 

Yes, tell me that bitcoins support terrorism and I'll go out of my way to use more bitcoins. 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:36 | 3373091 markettime
markettime's picture

Coming regulation and traded by the hedge funds. Whoever has the best techonology is the winner. You have already missed the boat if you were not in at the start. 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:44 | 3373142 q99x2
q99x2's picture

I've declared TPTB terrorists. Didn't do a damn thing.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:47 | 3373160 CH1
CH1's picture

I've declared TPTB terrorists.

More or less true!

"Obey us and give us your money or we'll hurt you bad." That is THE central statement of the state... that and "respect us or else."

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:51 | 3373149 Yardfarmer
Yardfarmer's picture

@ red pill. that's ridiculous. this is the beginning of the new digital currency which is part of the NWO program for purchasing by the plebes. gold and silver for the large commercial investors and sovereigns and bit coin for the hoi polloi or what's left of it after the necessary culling by our social engineers. so much for gold and silver. truly a barbaric relic. at least for the unwashed masses. just wiat until they interface bitcoin with RFID. we are all so far behind the curve no wonder our masters have relegated us to  requisite and deserving oblivion. long live the Novus Ordo Seclorum! 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:55 | 3373205 Alea Iactaest
Alea Iactaest's picture

.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:55 | 3373208 AmCockerSpaniel
AmCockerSpaniel's picture

It must be spring; The Tulips are showing up on Wall Street.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:07 | 3373308 Matt
Matt's picture

When the top blows off this mania, I figure there will be a >90% drop in users of bitcoin. TPTB do not need to destroy it, the mania will do that all on its own.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:22 | 3373735 3x2
3x2's picture

Yep, the moment that Bitcoins poise any real danger to TPTB they will immediately and universally be equated with terrorism.


True enough but I don't think they need to go down that route.

 

Let's suppose there are 10m 'Bitcoins' @ $75 - 75x10,000,000 = (750m) a tiny fraction of what the FED prints in a month diverted to buying up (80%?) of all 'bitcoins' and doing nothing with them. Static 'economy' = end of 'bitcoin'. No rules and regs required.

 

The problem with Bitcoin is that it was never ambitious enough. Even having divided the 'Bitcoin' into servicable one millionth parts, one would need way more than the mathematical end target to even make a 'blip on the radar' of the world economy. That is to suggest that even were a single 'Bitcoin' 'worth' $1m (and $1 now being the least division)  then the total (BC) economy would only be worth 28 million x 1million . Now multiply up with your most optomistic numbers and see if it still makes a dent in the 'Fiat' world. Cyprus and a bit I might suggest.

 

 

 

 

 


Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:16 | 3373940 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

You ever think this was done in mind to be as minimally nonthreatening as possible for the first run so it could fly under the radar to set up the basic delivery system. Any good system engineer builds the network then you build the devices to work on the network. Ass backwards types will build a cellphone first then try to figure out how to build a network for it to communicate on. You ever think bitcoin was the cover to set up the basic network and also test out the technology on a limited scale. Crisis is now just pushing what might have just been a simple curiousity into a real solution to a current problem. And a solution with an already developed if not anywhere near mature network for transmission. When I mean solution I don't mean bitcoin itself but the idea of decentralized crypto based currencies. If it has real value people will improve upon the basic algorithm, delivery system and devices.

Wed, 03/27/2013 - 09:17 | 3380791 theta
theta's picture

21m (not 28m, 21m is the final total bitcoin supply) times $1m equals $21trillion, i.e. 1.5 times the US GDP. I think it makes more than a dent to the 'Fiat' world.

Also, the smallest current denomination of bitcoin (a satoshi) is equal to 0.00000001 bitcoins, so there's 2.1 quadrillion of them, many times the number of $ in the world GDP.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:24 | 3373008 Banksters
Banksters's picture

Central bankers will never allow competition.   In short order it will be regulated into oblivion...  The politicos will bray that it was a route for money laundering.   

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:44 | 3373148 redpill
redpill's picture

Sad but true.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:56 | 3373215 game theory
game theory's picture

Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. It's like those tickets at the arcade when you played skee ball. Go ahead...give all those software guys holding 7 figure bitcoin balances your USD$. They are going to use the $$ to buy new iphones and FB stock.  "If you have been in a poker game for a while, and you still don’t know who the patsy is, you’re the patsy."  

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:05 | 3373295 sbfeibish
sbfeibish's picture

I'm the patsy.  I've got poker.biz and all the online gaming licenses are going to brick and mortar casinos and racetracks.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:25 | 3373017 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

remind me again how that will happen?

 

1. demand bitcoins shut down (without taking down the internet, and causing systemic issues which would result from shutting down the web)

2. ???

3. profit

 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:28 | 3373035 madcows
madcows's picture

With Government contro of the internet and everything else under marshall law.  the ruling elite won't go quietly into that good night

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:34 | 3373050 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

yes, i can see how a system, which is completely dependent on instant communication to feed, what is at most 2-3 days worth of supply chain inventory will stay FULLY WORKING once the internet has been clamped heavily down on overnight.

and then there's the slight issue of TOR...

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:46 | 3373156 Whalley World
Whalley World's picture

Speaking of clamp down, Maxkeiser.com has been down since yesterday.

Interesting to see how fast he can get back to GIABO

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:06 | 3373674 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Only the home page is down.  I use the RSS feed to see the articles.  Here is a link so you can see what is new. 

http://www.rsssearchhub.com/preview/max-keiser-rss-KDdrrAp/

Incidentally I have javascript disabled and you don't need it to access the link above to then clickthrough to the MK links.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:51 | 3373187 q99x2
q99x2's picture

If the Internet goes down food, medicine and alcohol will be important but if you can get a wireless link to a shortwave channel to a bitcoin server you can still trade. And if you have to trade, before you worry about eating, like some around here you'll still be ok.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:29 | 3373044 redpill
redpill's picture

1) Wouldn't put it past these dumfucks, but wouldn't be necessary

2a) Declare bitcoins illegal currency, which would dissuade enough people that it would have a huge negative impact on their value overnight

2b) Use taxpayer money to fund a giant bitcoin farm to devalue/inflate bitcoins until they die

3) Go back to fucking people with fiat per usual

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:33 | 3373074 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

there are very real limits to the pace of issue of BTCs, so it's not just a case of the gub'mint instanteneously farming the remaining 8-9m bitcoins, but even if they did, over half of the BTCs would still be out of their reach.

i guess they could always start to just outright buy the remainig BTCs out of circulation. that wouldn't be expensive, of course.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:43 | 3373138 redpill
redpill's picture

And scaring the crap out of any legitimate businesses who even think of accepting them as payment.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:46 | 3373139 Arisu
Arisu's picture

It's impossible to mine the remaining BTC instantaneously no matter how big your computing resources are because the algorithm adjusts its difficulty after two weeks of valid blocks (i.e. after every 6 * 24 * 7 * 2 = 2016 blocks) have been found. It does this by raising the difficulty proportionally to ratio of time it took to find those new 2016 blocks compared to how long it should have taken, so on average, it'll still take 10 minutes to find a new valid block.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:14 | 3373359 Matt
Matt's picture

1) if your cluster was fast enough, it could mine them all within 2 weeks.

2) As I understand it, the difficulty can only move up 4X or down 75% each time. 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:44 | 3373499 Arisu
Arisu's picture

1. No, it could not, because at the time I'm writing this, 6,702,012 blocks remain to be mined. At the very point you have mined another 2016 of those, the difficulty will be readjusted, no matter how long it took to find them.

For example: To mine all of them in two weeks, you'd have to mine at a rate of 6,702,012 blocks / (60 seconds/minute * 60 minutes/hour * 24 hours/day * 7 days/week * 2 weeks) = 6,702,012 blocks / 1,209,600 seconds ~= 5,54 blocks/second. This means, that you will have mined 2016 blocks in less than 364 seconds or about 6 minutes.

As you can see, the time it should have taken to mine those 2016 blocks is (10 minutes/block * 2016 blocks) = 20,160 minutes, whereas those blocks have been created in 6 minutes, meaning the difficulty should rise by the factor 20,160 / 6 = 3,360. It's not hard to see, that it'll now take you 10 minutes to find the next blocks, even with that previously huge computing capacity.

2. I'm not entirely sure about that, so I'll not comment on that except that even with that restriction, the difficulty would rise with the speed of 4^n, which is still very fast. I'll look into this.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:19 | 3373969 Matt
Matt's picture

If you are correct about the change in difficulty, then within hours it would become uneconomical for anyone else to mine bitcoins, so you would gain >50% of the network and be able to double-spend at will anyways, thus destroying faith in the currency.

EDIT: it would cost very little to take over bitcoin. current hashrate is ~50 Terahashes / second. One $30 K mining rig is capable of ~2 TH/s. For $600K you could obtain 50% of the network; of course, to obfuscate this, you would need to split it into a dozen mining pools geographically seperated. 

With a big manufacturer, such as Intel or Samsung, you could even produce chips that are much faster and use far less electricity. This does not even require a government, anyone with $1 million to blow could take over.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:21 | 3374196 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

one HYPOTHETICAL $30k mining rig.

Bytterflylabs have promised much, delivered little. actually, delivered nothing when it comes to ASIC's.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 21:33 | 3375135 Matt
Matt's picture

However, Avalon and ASICMiner have their hardware already. If someone had serious money and used an experienced manufacturer, rather than startups of people with no experience at all, I am sure they could get some decent equipment in a reasonable amount of time.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:02 | 3373928 3x2
3x2's picture

i guess they could always start to just outright buy the remainig BTCs out of circulation. that wouldn't be expensive, of course.

As I said earlier - when one can print USD at will then BC is a tiny inconvenience. No need for infantile 'conspiracy theories' about 'the man' shutting down 'the net' and the rest of the bullshit. Buy up and destroy the currency - BC FAIL.

 

 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:24 | 3374218 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

er, you don't think "the man printing and buying BTC's" is a infantile conspiracy theory?

BTC's would explode in price. I think *someone* would notice, when suddenly BTC holders all start buying up Presidio and Seacliff property left right and centre.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:49 | 3373165 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture

Assume I'm a completely unscrupulous and ammoral person, for example, and I want to shut down bitcoin.  Here are the ways I would attempt to do it.

  1. Write a virus to mine bit coins and spread it across the internet.
  2. Write a virus to steal bit coins, and spread it across the internet.
  3. Write a virus to act as part of the bitcoin network, and deny transactions that are valid
  4. Write a virus to act as part of the bitcoin network to approve transactions that are invalid.
  5. Dump the bit coins I mined as part of step #1 and #2 on the market
  6. Create a mania in bitcoins by dumping billions into buying bitcoins after doing step #5
  7. Associate it with terrorism
  8. Associate it with drugs
  9. Claim that people like me are manipulating it

And that's just off the top of my head.

I gots unlimited money.  I am working in a market that is unregulated.  I run the government or own it.  Try to stop me.

That's what you people are really up against.  They crap a billion dollars into the toilet in the morning and they make money at will.  Want to take down the system?  All you have to do is buy 700 million troy ounces of silver, that works out to 2 troy ounces per American citizen.

You also falsely assume there needs to be a profit motivation to destroy bitcoin.  No, it's a motivation to remain in control.  If I were this person, I would have all the money I wanted or ever needed, I'm only in search of more power, possibly.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:02 | 3373276 Arisu
Arisu's picture

1. More than half of all BTC have already been mined and its impossible to speed up the mining of the remaining ones (see this comment).
2. Yes, that would work to some degree, depending on how many unsecured computers can be infected.
3+4. This would have no effect. The BTC algorithm works through the fact that every client takes part in a common algorithm, there's no majority vote. If you change the algorithm, you'll just create a fork of it, which will exist and grow independently of the previous block chain.
5+6. If you can somehow acquire such a large sum of BTC, it'll surely have an effect on the market price when you dump it, yes. But it's probably easier to simply use the pump & dump tactic to acquire them in the first place.
7+8. It always has been associated with that, especially due to the largest BTC market, SR. Didn't prevent people from accepting it - rather it just proved how trustworthy it can be.
9. That's more likely to work as FUD psyops generally seem to work well.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:22 | 3373414 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture
  • 1) Doesn't matter if I speed up the process or not.  I will get the rest of them with a massive virus.  BTW - this virus already exists, many of them in fact exist
  • 2) There is already a virus to find wallets and email them to an individual.
  • 3+4) You are wrong that a virus that falsely denies transactions and falsely approves transactions would have no effect.  How many people run bitcoin on their computer?  A few hundred thousand at the moment?  A virus could run a million, and become *the* authorithy of what is a valid and invalid transaction.  You've already seen the glitch that happened when transactions were mistakenly denied with a recent upgrade, and it produced a flash crash.
  • 5+6) I don't care about cost in mining.  I care about control.  With a virus, it's irrelevant what it costs, since I'm not paying for it.  I'm a giant banking cartel that controls countries anyhow, I couldn't give less of a crap about money anyhow.  It's just another way to obtain them.
  • 7+8) We went to war with Iraq over allegations of terrorism and the country isn't the least bit upset about it.  People are easily led.  Businesses don't want to rock the boat, and they don't want to change the landscape.  They will approve restrictions on bitcoin without question, and your typical stupid population will approve it as well.
  • 9) It's just icing on the cake.

If powerful people want to stop this, they will certainly stop it.  They don't need stupid ass legislation either to do it.

Precious metals are the canary in the coal mine, not bitcoin.  I wouldn't be surprised to find out bitcoin is nothing more than something the government itself created.  You have no way of really knowing, and neither do I.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:43 | 3373532 Arisu
Arisu's picture

I'm not arguing against the fact that it could be manipulated, but merely tried to give some hints on why some of the proposed strategies probably wouldn't have a great effect. For example, by gaining control over the rest of the BTC, you wouldn't have more power than to cut the current market price in half, due to the fact that you cannot acquire them all at once, which was what I tried to communicate.

I agree that TPTB will try to mess with it.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:08 | 3373694 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture

I'm not arguing against the fact that it could be manipulated

It's a question of whether it can be destroyed, and the answer is yes.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:27 | 3373760 Arisu
Arisu's picture

Trust in it can certainly be eroded in various ways, but that's not a problem which is unique to BTC; TPTB could just as well give order to dump all gold/silver/whatever onto the market and you'd see a similar effect on its price.

The lesson is to not put all your eggs in one basket if you cannot afford to lose them all. To think there is never some degree of risk in an investment is a fallacy.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:51 | 3373873 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture

TPTB could just as well give order to dump all gold/silver/whatever onto the market and you'd see a similar effect on its price.

They can only do this for so long, because there is just enough gold that exists today to barely give every human being on the planet one ounce of the stuff, and there is enough silver to give every human being 15 ounces.

They are tiny markets, and they were once the backbone of currency.  The Federal government borrows more money in a MONTH than there is silver mined in a year.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:22 | 3373999 Arisu
Arisu's picture

Indeed, and the same applies to Bitcoin. There's only a fixed amount of gold on Earth, and there's only 21 million BTC that will ever exist. Malicious forces are limited to artificially creating and destroying market bubbles, thus eroding trust in the system, due to the fact that they can't create additional BTC/gold/silver.

They can alter the market value, but they cannot destroy the property itself, no matter whether PM or BTC.
They can invent a way to steal the cryptographic BTC keys from your computer, they can confiscate your PMs. Everyone can take measures to protect themselves from both.

It often seems to be implied as if one has to buy BTC, or die. This is wrong and stupid.
Every currency has its own pros and cons, risks and safety zones, and everyone should allocate their wealth according to what is best for them.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:23 | 3374014 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture

Bitcoin depends on majority wins in a transaction.

Until 51% of all computers are part of the network, it's vulnerable to any number of virus attacks to scuttle it.  That's the point I'm making.

People who defend bitcoin point out that this wouldn't be economically viable to do, provided you paid for the resources to do it.  My point is that it doesn't need to be economically viable when you don't pay for the resources to do it, hence, a virus.

I'm only explaining to you how I would scuttle it given unlimited resources.  It's trivial to do.  If bitcoin becomes a problem for those in power, it will most certainly be destroyed.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:47 | 3373587 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Some very powerful entities are also quietly behind this experiment. What their motives are is another story but they will not allow it to be shut down. This is one of those things you can't model in a simulation to test. That is what PHDs in Ivory Towers detached from reality do.

I can't stress this enough, some in govt. know even if they won't say that the Central Banks, TBTF banks and whole system are going kill the host which includes them and trying to find an antidote to deworm the host (themselves) of the parasite without killing themselves in the process.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:58 | 3373654 unununium
unununium's picture

Yes Dewey. My most optimistic self thinks exactly this.

Unfortunately the other cynical selves often get more air time.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:08 | 3373693 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

In organizations there are 2 types of people those with their heads up their asses in fantasy land and those that aren't. The higher up the food chain you are the more likely your head is rammed up your ass. These sort of things come from people down lower on the food chain. That is the most simplistic way of putting it. Obviously it more complicated and nuanced but self preservation when your head is not up your ass is usually the ultimate motivator for change.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:20 | 3373408 Matt
Matt's picture

1. Already exists; there is a huge botnet mining bitcoins that at one time made up 40% of the network. FPGAs, ASICs and the high price of bitcoins has reduced its stake tremendously.

2 and 3 probably already exist and are dealt with continously.

4. cannot work unless the virus provides >50% of the network processing power.

5. go for it.

6. why spend billions when bitcoin already has manias anytime it gets news coverage? you just need to put it in the news every two years and it goes boom-bust all on its own.

7,8,9: already happening.

The manias and the technical limits of transaction processing, combined with the rapidly growing online penny gambling, are sufficient headwinds without spending a vast fortune on such a little thing.

 

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:39 | 3373530 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture

without spending a vast fortune on such a little thing.

HAHAHA.

You don't seem to get it.  IF I were this person, I wouldn't care about money, at all.  I would have all the money I want.  I could buy the entire mining output of silver for a year.  I could crash the COMEX if I wanted.

You people just don't fucking know who you're dealing with still, and I'm sick and tired of you still not being aware of it.  How can you be so freaking stupid after all this time?  Operation Ajax, Operation Northwoods, the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, the Tuskegee Trials, Operation PBSuccess, etc, etc, etc.

They'll goddamned kill you if they have to do it, but they won't have to do that.  It's that simple.

Do you even know why the US dollar is the world's reserve currency?  Do you know when it was faltering in the 1970's why it was re-established as the world's reserve currency?  The Carter Doctrine and the Reagan Corrolary.  You really just don't understand what sort of people you're dealing with.  It's easy to write them off as evil, they aren't evil.  They are ammoral.

Get tired of arguing this.  Do as you will.  Naivete is it's own punishment.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:16 | 3373718 TheCanadianAustrian
TheCanadianAustrian's picture

You're an idiot.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:24 | 3373741 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture

I am fully aware of what this government is capable of because I know it's history.  You don't.  Yet you're calling me an idiot because I have knowledge which you do not, and when presented to you, you simply and mindlessly ignore.

So call me what you will.  You're a genius.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:37 | 3373798 TheCanadianAustrian
TheCanadianAustrian's picture

I say you're an idiot because it's blatantly obvious that you haven't taken the hour or so needed for the average person to study and understand how Bitcoin works. Yet you somehow feel qualified to speak as an expert on the subject due to your many years of experience and wisdom. Your comments are dripping with such ignorance and technical incompetence that I'm almost reluctant to respond to you for fear of it dripping all over me.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:42 | 3373827 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture

"I say you're an idiot because it's blatantly obvious that you haven't taken the hour or so needed for the average person to study and understand how Bitcoin works."

It doesn't take an hour to figure out how to destroy it.

It's EASY to release a virus that will deny or approve transactions fradulently.  It's already happened by accident.

Now, since you have apparently taken the "hour" to really understand this, explain in detail in your response, preciesely how say 30% of the computers on the net running Windows can't absolutely scutter bit coin?  Don't tell me the code is available, you explain precisely the mechanism that exists to prevent this.

You won't, because you don't understand how it works.  You're full of shit.  You have blind failth in something you don't understand, because you're the idiot.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:46 | 3373840 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

If it is opensource I and others don't need to know if we don't want to as long as others who do know are scrutinizing the code and submitting updates to counteract each risk as it rears it's ugly head. That little thing called trust is hard to break when it comes to open information since distrust can't hide in the shadows to destroy the system itself. If it fails in that case it on us not you. I'd rather live and die by my own choice than yours.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:55 | 3373894 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture

If it is opensource I and others don't need to know

Bitcoin depends on majority rules to approve or deny a transaction.  That is what it depends on, and when somebody like me explains to you how that can be subverted, in a day and age where a virus can infect 50% of the computers on the planet, you simply ignore it and call me an idiot.

I'm a programmer and I do it for a living.  You won't listen to me though, will you?  Fine, don't.  I get tired of talking sense to fools.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:16 | 3373995 TheCanadianAustrian
TheCanadianAustrian's picture

Computer viruses are not a magically-destroy-anything-you-want-and-get-your-way card. If what you suggest were possible, viruses would have already been written to counterfeit and destroy all fiat currencies. Banks wouldn't exist because viruses would have transferred money out of all the accounts. Hackers would just break into their own accounts and change their balance to whatever the hell they wanted.

Sorry buddy, it doesn't work like that. I'm afraid it's you that's the idiot.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:30 | 3374035 rich_wicks
rich_wicks's picture

Fiat currencies don't depend on majority wins to authenticate a transaction.  Bitcoin does.

And there are already viruses that are used to mine, as well as steal, bitcoins - and since bitcoins are not considered a commodity legally, the only law you're breaking is writing a virus.

If the government itselt writes and deploys a virus, nobody gets prosecuted otherwise a bunch of NSA assholes would be in jail for Stuxnet.

The fatal flaw of bitcoin, is that it depends on majority rules.  All you need to do in order to destroy it, is become the majority.  That doesn't take 51% of the computers to do - more like 1%.  That's a fact.  Even bitcoin proponents acknowledge this, however they defend it as not being economically viable to get the majority.  What I'm trying to point out, is that it doesn't need to be economically viable.  This has nothing to do with money, it has to do with control.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:42 | 3373822 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Sounds like you are a disinformation troll to me. Though you bring up a point about mining and botnets that is valid. If crypto-currency is to gain government backing you'd need to develop into a new alogorithm restrictions on mining to specific wallets aka (accounts) that can only be issued to in the case of the USA the Treasury Department. It would in that case be in line with US Constitution about the treasury issuing coinage. This case it maybe digital but you back it with hard assets (gold, silver, platinum coins or serial numbered bullion in specifc weight denominations) and make it debt free then it is the same thing with a translation factor between crypto to physical.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 17:25 | 3374223 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

you essentially address nothing in his response. what do you think your post has done to your credibility?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 19:59 | 3374801 Long_Xau
Long_Xau's picture

I challenge them.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:49 | 3373170 CH1
CH1's picture

remind me again how that will happen?

They don't know. They merely assume that there's a magic button that can be pushed.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:04 | 3373669 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Is that too far fetched to have them go after major exchanges, commerce accepting it, etc.?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 16:56 | 3374100 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-21/us-begins-regulating-bitcoin-wi...

They already are. Though the key point is that they recognize it as a valid transmission medium is the key point. Regardless of all the bs and hoopty doo you can do bitcoin transactions anonymously with a little care in how you go about it. For legit purchases that is another issue but you can have multiple wallets you know.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:26 | 3373022 Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

How?

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:31 | 3373049 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

don't forget your extra cell phone batteries for when shit goes mad max you'll be able to power on, log in and check your bitcoin power rating right from the trenches.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:32 | 3373057 redpill
redpill's picture

DHS raiding a few bitcoin farms would be an interesting first step, and it would just get more fascist from there.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:36 | 3373092 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

The more bitcoins are taken out of circulation the more valuable the remaining bitcoins become.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:47 | 3373159 redpill
redpill's picture

I understand that, that's why I figured they would want to control the bitcoin mining operations and then flood the market with them.  Not consistently, of course, they'll do it in big bunches to really fuck with the price action.  Keep in mind these guys are experts at fucking with prices, just look at the joke of a stock market and commodity market we have these days

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:27 | 3373028 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

No central servers. Sorry no can do.

Napster could be shut down but BitTorrent couldn't.

Same thing applies to BitCoin.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:30 | 3373047 redpill
redpill's picture

There doesn't need to be central servers for governments to destroy the value of bitcoins through artificial means.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:39 | 3373814 TheCanadianAustrian
TheCanadianAustrian's picture

Right, because they're doing such a good job destroying the value of silver and gold.

Sarc.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:32 | 3373067 toys for tits
toys for tits's picture

TPTB have been able to track bittorents for years resulting in easy convictions.  They don't even need warrants since those electrons are just floating around. Why would they shut it down?

Once they label BTC users as money laundering terrorists they'll just track it, and even if it comes from an anonymous wallet, they are still able to tell where the BTC has been.  They won't shut it down because they can use it as a tool to catch the idiots using it.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:39 | 3373119 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

For every tracker taken down multiple trackers have become active. In the Netherlands we have a guy named Tim Kuik of the BREIN foundation who is actively suing trackers but he is losing the battle as more trackers pop up.

http://fucktimkuik.org

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:39 | 3373116 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

TPTB have no problem running a BitTorrent client, and harvesting IP addresses of downloaders.  Ditto BitCoin - they can harvest IP addresses, declare it illegal, then start making visits in person.  It's not anonymous by a long shot and it wouldn't take many more than one or two highly visible arrests to damage it severely. 

Or they could simply force ISPs to block BitCoin related packets, which they can easily identify via their already-in-place deep packet inspection hardware.  Truth of the matter is, they could shut it down in the US in a matter of a few hours, if they so desired.  You might have lots of bitcoins in your wallet, but without the 'net, you aren't going to spend or exchange them for anything useful.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:55 | 3373209 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

all of what you write is essentially invalidated by 1) TOR and 2) truly anonymous wallets

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:19 | 3373403 RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

TOR exit servers are already compromised.   Get back to me when an IP address and MAC address isn't required to make a BitCoin transaction using an anoymous wallet. 

I'm not hating on BitCoin here, just being realistic.  Every freaking 0 or 1 bit that crosses the internet does it via black rooms and the NSA.  Been there, seen that.  They can add bits, or subtract bits as they like and have no problem tracing any particular bit back to the owner, whether it travels through I2P or TOR, or any other current anonymizing technology....

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 14:35 | 3373494 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

compromised - according to whom. [CITATION NEEDED]

 

ffs, it's the same in every BTC thread. SPURIOUS claim made, and NO evidence to back it up. where is your proof that TOR has been conclusively compromised, and if that is the case, WHY is Silk Road still running? let me guess OMG SILK ROAD IS A CIA FRONT [CITATION NEEDED]

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 15:51 | 3373871 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

One can spoof a mac address fairly easily. VPN connection through enough redirectors obfiscates the IP address well enough. The $64 dollar question and I don't know the answer is unless bitcoin violates basic internet protocols the only mac address the transaction should be getting is from the NIC/router etc from the last hop through the network not the originating mac address from your device. That is all the mac info that is fowarded in the routing tables based on TCP-IP protocols.

Mon, 03/25/2013 - 13:33 | 3373075 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

What a bunch of morons.... gold... silver.... 6000 year trackrecord...
why don't they just transfer it to paypal is beyond me...

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