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David Stockman: The Keynesian Endgame

Tyler Durden's picture


Even the tepid post-2008 recovery has not been what it was cracked up to be, especially with respect to the Wall Street presumption that the American consumer would once again function as the engine of GDP growth. It goes without saying, in fact, that the precarious plight of the Main Street consumer has been obfuscated by the manner in which the state’s unprecedented fiscal and monetary medications have distorted the incoming data and economic narrative.

These distortions implicate all rungs of the economic ladder, but are especially egregious with respect to the prosperous classes. In fact, a wealth-effects driven mini-boom in upper-end consumption has contributed immensely to the impression that average consumers are clawing their way back to pre-crisis spending habits. This is not remotely true.

Five years after the top of the second Greenspan bubble (2007), inflation-adjusted retail sales were still down by about 2 percent. This fact alone is unprecedented. By comparison, five years after the 1981 cycle top real retail sales (excluding restaurants) had risen by 20 percent. Likewise, by early 1996 real retail sales were 17 percent higher than they had been five years earlier. And with a fair amount of help from the great MEW (measurable economic welfare) raid, constant dollar retail sales in mid-2005 where 13 percent higher than they had been five years earlier at the top of the first Greenspan bubble.

So this cycle is very different, and even then the reported five years’ stagnation in real retail sales does not capture the full story of consumer impairment. The divergent performance of Wal-Mart’s domestic stores over the last five years compared to Whole Foods points to another crucial dimension; namely, that the averages are being materially inflated by the upbeat trends among the prosperous classes.

For all practical purposes Wal-Mart is a proxy for Main Street America, so it is not surprising that its sales have stagnated since the end of the Greenspan bubble. Thus, its domestic sales of $226 billion in fiscal 2007 had risen to an inflation-adjusted level of only $235 billion by fiscal 2012, implying real growth of less than 1 percent annually.

By contrast, Whole Foods most surely reflects the prosperous classes given that its customers have an average household income of $80,000, or more than twice the Wal-Mart average. During the same five years, its inflation-adjusted sales rose from $6.5 billion to $10.5 billion, or at a 10 percent annual real rate. Not surprisingly, Whole Foods’ stock price has doubled since the second Greenspan bubble, contributing to the Wall Street mantra about consumer resilience.

To be sure, the 10-to-1 growth difference between the two companies involves factors such as the healthy food fad, that go beyond where their respective customers reside on the income ladder. Yet this same sharply contrasting pattern is also evident in the official data on retail sales.

* * *

That the consumption party is highly skewed to the top is born out even more dramatically in the sales trends of publicly traded retailers. Their results make it crystal clear that Wall Street’s myopic view of the so-called consumer recovery is based on the Fed’s gifts to the prosperous classes, not any spending resurgence by the Main Street masses.

The latter do their shopping overwhelmingly at the six remaining discounters and mid-market department store chains—Wal-Mart, Target, Sears, J. C. Penney, Kohl’s, and Macy’s. This group posted $405 billion in sales in 2007, but by 2012 inflation-adjusted sales had declined by nearly 3 percent to $392 billion. The abrupt change of direction here is remarkable: during the twenty-five years ending in 2007 most of these chains had grown at double-digit rates year in and year out.

After a brief stumble in late 2008 and early 2009, sales at the luxury and high-end retailers continued to power upward, tracking almost perfectly the Bernanke Fed’s reflation of the stock market and risk assets. Accordingly, sales at Tiffany, Saks, Ralph Lauren, Coach, lululemon, Michael Kors, and Nordstrom grew by 30 percent after inflation during the five-year period.

The evident contrast between the two retailer groups, however, was not just in their merchandise price points. The more important comparison was in their girth: combined real sales of the luxury and high-end retailers in 2012 were just $33 billion, or 8 percent of the $393 billion turnover reported by the discounters and mid-market chains.

This tale of two retailer groups is laden with implications. It not only shows that the so-called recovery is tenuous and highly skewed to a small slice of the population at the top of the economic ladder, but also that statist economic intervention has now become wildly dysfunctional. Largely based on opulence at the top, Wall Street brays that economic recovery is under way even as the Main Street economy flounders. But when this wobbly foundation periodically reveals itself, Wall Street petulantly insists that the state unleash unlimited resources in the form of tax cuts, spending stimulus, and money printing to keep the simulacrum of recovery alive.

Accordingly, the central banking branch of the state remains hostage to Wall Street speculators who threaten a hissy fit sell-off unless they are juiced again and again. Monetary policy has thus become an engine of reverse Robin Hood redistribution; it flails about implementing quasi-Keynesian demand–pumping theories that punish Main Street savers, workers, and businessmen while creating endless opportunities, as shown below, for speculative gain in the Wall Street casino.

At the same time, Keynesian economists of both parties urged prompt fiscal action, and the elected politicians obligingly piled on with budget-busting tax cuts and spending initiatives. The United States thus became fiscally ungovernable. Washington has been afraid to disturb a purported economic recovery that is not real or sustainable, and therefore has continued to borrow and spend to keep the macroeconomic “prints” inching upward. In the long run this will bury the nation in debt, but in the near term it has been sufficient to keep the stock averages rising and the harvest of speculative winnings flowing to the top 1 percent.

The breakdown of sound money has now finally generated a cruel endgame. The fiscal and central banking branches of the state have endlessly bludgeoned the free market, eviscerating its capacity to generate wealth and growth. This growing economic failure, in turn, generates political demands for state action to stimulate recovery and jobs.

But the machinery of the state has been hijacked by the various Keynesian doctrines of demand stimulus, tax cutting, and money printing. These are all variations of buy now and pay later—a dangerous maneuver when the state has run out of balance sheet runway in both its fiscal and monetary branches. Nevertheless, these futile stimulus actions are demanded and promoted by the crony capitalist lobbies which slipstream on whatever dispensations as can be mustered. At the end of the day, the state labors mightily, yet only produces recovery for the 1 percent.


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Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:24 | 3406051 Croesus
Croesus's picture


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:25 | 3406057 ACP
ACP's picture

I think it's more like BUY NOW PAY NEVER.

At least since 2009.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:33 | 3406085 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Maybe they figure we don't need to worry about borrowing from future generations, because there won't be any.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:37 | 3406110 Scarlett
Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:49 | 3406156 Croesus
Croesus's picture

Looks more like they are using Bitcoin to buy gold, unless I missed something.....


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:21 | 3406241 This just in
This just in's picture

Is that real physical gold, or the papery, worthlessy gold?

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:46 | 3406495 W74
W74's picture

They're shipping physical.  Funny how SOME of the Gen Y'ers y'all complain about are more aware than your average boomer.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:05 | 3406546 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

yes, physical.  funny how the people who junked me don't seem to understand how this is good for gold

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:36 | 3408183 auric1234
auric1234's picture

Is there a difference?


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:29 | 3406441 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

Bitcoin or Shitcoin?

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 23:15 | 3406684 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Everything government touches turns to crap.  Ringo Starr

Except for the 1 percent, for them everything government touches turns to fiat.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 00:58 | 3406908 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

>>I think it's more like BUY NOW PAY NEVER.

At least since 2009.<<

The narrative is false.  The debt being issued now will ENSLAVE humanity if we don't wisen up.

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. The one aim of these financiers is world control by the creation of inextinguishable debt.”
~Henry Ford

Debt Money Tyranny

How to be a Crook

The Money That Is Sold Abroad Is You!

Tragedy & Hope @

P. 276

"In addition to these pragmatic goals, the powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. The system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the system was to be the Bank of International Settlements in Basle, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world’s central banks, which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank, in the hands of men like Montagu Norman of the Bank of England, Benjamin Strong of the New York Federal Reserve Bank…sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

The genius of this system is the quality of the sheep's clothing covering the Fabian Socialist wolf.

It is a mistake to underestimate this magnitude of this evil.

Darwin's "favoured races" {his own at the very tippy, tippy top, by chance, of course!  Look out Irish!] aren't interested in those who will cause the "Descent of Man."

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:26 | 3406061 brewing
brewing's picture

Bring it!

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:26 | 3406063 ghandi
Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:31 | 3406080 vulcanraven
vulcanraven's picture

Roll them guillotines

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:38 | 3406464 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Al  the laid off tech people can devise some efficient ones for the banksters.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:32 | 3406084 Croesus
Croesus's picture

Let me say this:

If you're interested in history at all, you may see a recurring theme:

"The People" work harder and harder, so the Banksters and politicians have more free time to come up with new and creative ways of fucking "the people" over.

The only way things ever change? Guns, bullets, and rope.

BUT, once things are changed, "The People" get complacent again, and start believing the bullshit propagated by the Banksters and Politicians, again.

And "The People" go back to servitude.....again.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 03:57 | 3407092 Ludwig Van
Ludwig Van's picture

"And "The People" go back to servitude...."

You may be right. But it takes generations. That does not discharge my responsibility to my family -- whether that be blood or my nation -- to do all I can to stop the evil cunts and try to reset to something better.

Yes, I'm interested in history. What was established here in America worked until it got corrupted. I can't go back to then, nor go a hundred years ahead. The job that needs to be done is here in front of me, of us. Either grab a shovel or an AR or a light and chip in. Otherwise get the fuck out of the way. There's work to be done today.


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:27 | 3406065 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

"Tax cutting" is a "Keynesian doctrine"?

Not at's the SHRINKING OF THE STATE...bring it on!

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:35 | 3406104 Melin
Melin's picture

I thought it was a late April Fool's posting then realized it was Stockman again.  And again, he's not a free market guy. 

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:41 | 3406129 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

If you want free markets, they have to be free for everyone, "rich" or otherwise...and you have to make the state weak and impotent, so it is forced to end the price-fixing, corruption of price-discovery, wage-rigging, subsidizing, monopoly creation and protection, bailouts of everyone from the unemployed to auto companies to banks to mortgage-holders, etc.

No, sometimes Stockman seems to resemble a Michael Hudson/Robert Reich/Paul Craig Roberts interventionist...

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:49 | 3406155 Melin
Melin's picture

Separate Economy and State

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:31 | 3406264 nmewn
nmewn's picture

“The characteristic feature of present-day policies is the trend toward a substitution of government control for free enterprise. Powerful political parties and pressure groups are fervently asking for public control of all economic activities, for thorough government planning, and for the nationalization of business. They aim at full government control of education and at the socialization of the medical profession. There is no sphere of human activity that they would not be prepared to subordinate to regimentation by the authorities. In their eyes, state control is the panacea for all ills.” ~ Ludwig von Mises in 1944

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:28 | 3406067 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Take the money from the baby boomers.  hahaha

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:38 | 3406113 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Molon labe.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:53 | 3406153 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture

Last year of the boomers here     1964.........



Come try and take it......or remain an anonymous internet douchebag    :)

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:08 | 3406554 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Tough Guy.. Nice


Wear your diapers and be quiet.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:59 | 3406526 1C3-N1N3
1C3-N1N3's picture

Five better ideas, little sister:

Make stuff, move stuff, fix stuff, teach stuff, or guard stuff. You don't need mom and dad's cash.

-- Another Millennial

(If you were sarc-ing, at least explain to me why I should trust people who say things they don't mean.)

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:09 | 3406560 surf0766
surf0766's picture

I am one generation behind the boomers. Watching the crap they have littered society with.

Peace and free love baby.. Complete horseshit.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:18 | 3406585 1C3-N1N3
1C3-N1N3's picture

Compulsive dopamine-seeking behavior is commonplace these days. But if direct confiscation is your game, ask the Cypriots how well that ends.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:31 | 3406082 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

These older guys like David Stockman, trying to make a buck selling these antique items called 'books', strike me as a little out-of-place and sad these days

Stockman is certainly getting the big media pump for himself ... makes one wonder why the MSM is backing him right now

And Stockman is saying nothing new to ZeroHedge readers, while he labours to make his book-bucks

Karl Denninger's 'book' Leverage was a big fat sales fizzle, despite the big-publisher push for him and his website numbers

And then we have various people on ZeroHedge hawking their antique-style books, like Mr Testicle Pit ... mostly again older guys I think

Books ... ha! ... Remnants of a time gone by ...


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:37 | 3406107 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

I agree. I always wait for the film adaptation.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:45 | 3406139 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

Yeah...the dumbing of America...people who can only comprehend stuff if it's video...

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:10 | 3406567 surf0766
surf0766's picture

I think for some even that a video is too much. What a complete hunk of crap the education system is. 40 years of idiots running things...

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:45 | 3406147 SubjectivObject
SubjectivObject's picture

ZeroHedge is not the center of the conventionaly ignorant world, view.

Anything Stockman can get across is valuable in any case.  I point to the megaphone weapon of mass diversion on the other side of this ... info war.

Why your critique of content should consider format as an indicator of anything, considering too that books , corporeal or virtual, are still read by credible people, escapes me.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:47 | 3406150 negative rates
negative rates's picture

He has a contract to sign books in Cali, might even be a tour of the whole state. On the way out he says "you just got Cyprused'.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:56 | 3406342 kito
kito's picture

These older guys like David Stockman, trying to make a buck selling these antique items called 'books', strike me as a little out-of-place....

yeah, youre absolutely right.....a little out of place...thats because the entire msm platform continues pumping complete bullshit to the masses about a recovery that he is speaking the truth, a rare feat these days among high profile individuals who have credibility........making a buck doing it, wtf is your point????? besides stockman has been warning of this for quite some time.....and better his book gets read than another krugman tome.........................

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:14 | 3406387 essence
essence's picture

Imagine that, attempting to make money the old fashioned way, thru honest work.

Yeah, no doubt David Stockman coulda sold his soul and now be enjoying a big fat retirement paycheck coming in from some amorphous Cayman Islands entity. Instead, apparently, he's out there hustling for a living, or perhaps just plain inspired and driven.

Stockman passes the smell test, your post Brussels Dude doesn't.


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:11 | 3406570 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

When SHTF and the internet is down, books will still function as intended. 

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:34 | 3406087 khakuda
khakuda's picture

What is most disingenuous is that the NY Times and Krugman, the supposed advocates of the 99%, have encouraged the free money zirp/money printing that has inflated asset prices, increased the wealth divide AND driven food and energy prices through the roof killing their purported 99% constituents.

...and NO ONE calls them on this bullshit.

Let's face it, prices for houses, college, etc. NEEDED (and still need) to fall to get back in line with wages that didn't grow.  The ONLY reason they were not allowed to deflate was because the home and student debt was held by the banks and it would have gone bad and killed the bankers.  SO here we are with prices still too high for wages and debt serfdom still the only option.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:32 | 3406271 Five8Charlie
Five8Charlie's picture

The New York Times is _not_ the advocate for the 99%. The NYT is an organ of the State - why do you think Dr. Krugman and the dumber-than-a-rock Friedman work there?

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:00 | 3406524 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Absolutely ... add in the entire DNC idiots as well.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:34 | 3406092 ramacers
ramacers's picture

serve 'em up - baskets full of heads!

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:34 | 3406093 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

This 800-year experiment we have had with increasing freedom and prosperity for the masses has been a failure for the ruling classes.  Isn't it time we once again yoked the serfdom to their plows so that our rulers can go about living the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed without having to look over their shoulders?

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:33 | 3406094 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

Books will most likely provide great entertainment in the future...think about that statement BGIB...

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:42 | 3406128 Croesus
Croesus's picture

Amen to that.....


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:07 | 3406365 W74
W74's picture

I sat outside for about 90 minutes today with a book.  I spent maybe 50 minutes reading and the rest just dozing off.  The transition to Spring here is coming along nicely.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:35 | 3406101 nmewn
nmewn's picture

(Crackle-Pop)...this is your Captain speaking.

You may have noticed three engines are out and the other is on fire. The crew has done all we can do up here so you need to brace for impact, we'll see everyone on the ground once we get down there.

No need to worry about us, we've got the parachutes and thanks again for flying Fiat Air ;-)

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:37 | 3406112 Another-Ex-RPI-Man
Another-Ex-RPI-Man's picture

The main problem is the Debt is retained by the private sector, ie, banks. If you default on debt and reset all the debt, theren't be the need either for rescuing countries neither recapitalizing banks. However a few, yet major groups, wouldn't be willing to let go on their assets even if that means let going also the liabilities.

The problem is that by resetting the debt you actually reset the interest paid, and interests are not simetrical, because countries pay a lot of interests and yet banks get rescued by the Fed and BCE at effective nearly zero interest.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:39 | 3406114 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

Problem is that the people in the Middle pay for it all.

They pay thru taxation for the people on Welfare and they pay for all of the hand outs for Wall Street.

Question remains is if they can thru their Income Taxes support the people at the lower end and the people at the higher end.

With all of this printing the day will come to repay all of this Debt.  It is unfortunate that the people in the Middle will shoulder all of the burden.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:46 | 3406148 nmewn
nmewn's picture

85 billion a month...I didn't authorize it...I ain't paying.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:39 | 3406116 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Stockman also advocates serious banking regulation.  I wonder if the venerable Von Mises Institute is getting behind that now?  

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:50 | 3406158 nmewn
nmewn's picture

What kind of banking regulation?

Re-instituting Glass-Steagall to keep the taxpayer from backing the IB's on Wall Street? If so, count me in.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:57 | 3406177 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Glass-Steagall did a helluva lot more than that and its repeal did not itself force the taxpayer to back anyone, but if you're behind serious banking regulation then we found common ground.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:13 | 3406219 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Please tell me you two found common ground so I know hell actually froze over and i can finally short the market.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:17 | 3406230 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...only on "degrees" of thievery fonz ;-)

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:33 | 3406273 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

wow innocent humor gets junked. That's it. I give up.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:39 | 3406285 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Wasn't me -- I reserve my down arrows almost exclusively for Newman.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:43 | 3406293 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I hope one day we all get together for beers somewhere. We will probably end up throwing them at each other. But at least we can say we did it. Or maybe we won't and in the middle of our laughs some crazy asshole will run by and throw a beer at each of us and we can see who  the junker is.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:49 | 3406322 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Sign me up!  Newman and I are both in Florida if I remember correctly.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:56 | 3406339 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I'll fuckin tell you what. I come down to Florida every once in a while. I will be there in the next year. I will let you both know. If you are anywhere near each other I will find a place and if you both get out I will buy the beers. Shit I would be happy to. I have learned a lot from each of you, with laughs to boot.

I am telling you guys, we may not all think alike on here. But almost every one of us brings a unique aspect of thought. As we get further down this rabbit shithole it may be good to know where the decent folks are located.

Trust me when the shit hits the fan you will want to come to NY, and that's where I am. So you are welcome.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:59 | 3406348 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Deal.  And actually Newman and I agree on a lot more than he'll admit.  He likes to engage more than Picard.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 03:37 | 3407086 Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

When SHTF New York or any metropolian area will be the last place where you want to be.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 06:25 | 3407178 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:44 | 3406295 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Even after I gave you an up arrow? ;-)

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:49 | 3406317 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I know a tease when I see one....

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:53 | 3406326 nmewn
nmewn's picture


Watch above...its three to two'll be two-three after this comment.


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:59 | 3406349 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

You're a prince (and I don't just mean the Machiavelli kind).  Would you believe I up arrowed Akak today?  No shit.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:17 | 3406395 nmewn
nmewn's picture saw it, I'll put it back to up now. So I told the truth before you recognized what the truth was, Machiavelli indeed ;-)

Akak's a good man...and more and more I find myself going to his side of the equation because of idiots pretending to understand ethics, morality & law when it comes through the state as it is...and being allowed to vote enforcement of same.

Democracy is the worst possible form of governance as it will eventuate into will give you exactly what you want...and your children will damn your name for it.


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:26 | 3406411 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I just liked his Rong Dong North Korean missile joke.  P.S.  I just downarrowed myself to balance things out.  Now 3 and 3.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:14 | 3406497 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...I don't know how they do it (mixing the farcisist shitizin droolism of AnAnonymous' eternal nature) my mind just doesn't work that way.

We'll leave it at 3-3 then, I always liked three's.


But one last thing before I sign out for the night...another one of your "regulators" has gone rogue...again.

Mary Shapiro is stepping down and walking into...the Promontory Financial Group...which advises finacial groups on...wait for it...wait...

Regulations ;-)


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:35 | 3406632 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Yeah, it's amazing how money corrupts.  That's why we need checks (not the kind w/ zeros) and balances.  P.S.  I'm not the junker.  Probably Rand's ghost junking you for the positive regulation comment earlier!  Just gave you a reluctant up to prove it.  1 and 1.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 23:57 | 3406837 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

We are all getting junked.  Fuck them.  Sometimes I deserve to be junked and I admit that fact.  Not every post I throw out there is good.  The cowardice to junk though and not explain why is what bother's me the most.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 07:34 | 3407273 Just Ice
Just Ice's picture

I doubt cowardice but rather someone going down the comment line hitting red arrows, knowing he/she/it will evoke reactions of indignation, horror, surprise, bewilderment...and thinks it's a gas.  In other words, someone's way of amusing themselves...may not even read the comments junked.  Forums are different things for different people.  Imagine a skateboarder whooshing past a line of queued people splashing a bit of mud on each of them...and the crowd's reaction...kind of funny thought of in that light.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:41 | 3406289 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Its hopeless.

I once walked LTER through the Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto asking, agree or disagree?...I'll say one thing, LTER is honest when cornered ;-)

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:57 | 3406334 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I even yell "Didi Mao!" when I'm playing Russian roulette.   He's the original Dear Leader, don't ya know (yes, I know it means hurry up or something, but still).  And I'm not the junker on this one either.  Haven't junked in a while -- I like to hold my downs for when I'm in a bad mood.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 00:29 | 3406883 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

No.  We do not give up.  Come on Fonz.  There are more folks behind you than you think.  Don't worry about the red arrows and do not take shit from anyone.  They are just pricks who are trying to come after ZH'ers.  There are just some poeple who are purchashed.  It was obvious that this was going to happen and that is why I built a website.  I do not have anything for sale on it either.  I am not trying to pimp anyone.  What I want to do is to protect free spirited writers.

Some ZHer's out there likes what we are trying to do.  Huge amount of hits today and thank you all for that.  Does anyone remember Gold33/Barbarous Relic from the 2008 MarketWatch Days?  He has a very good post, again, on  I can not really speak for Gold33 but you are more than welcome to ask him personally.

Nice post.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 06:55 | 3407209 Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

"wow innocent humor gets junked. That's it. I give up."

Never give up, never surrender - we need humor more that ever!


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:40 | 3406120 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

I have a shitload of credit cards with zero balance on them.  Project "Acquire A Shitload of Silver Dimes" is really just getting started.  What should I do?

After they piss pounded Au and Ag today, I might be a buyer of physical again for the third time in six days.  Fuck those assholes.  I do not even care anymore really about their stupid digitz.

They can all go to hell but we do not have to go with them.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:46 | 3406141 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture

I know what you mean, I need some dimes.



After 8 years of the OBowel Movement, I'll bet you a silver dime gets you an egg........what say ye it gets you?

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:25 | 3406423 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Holy shit.  Who is running through all of these threads and junking pretty much all of us?  That's so lame.  If you don't have the guts to face us then get the hell off of ZH and go back to HuffPo.   If you are going to junk us then at least stand up and tell us why you did so.

Actually, physical silver is not trading at all time highs regarding premium on physical.  Three weeks ago is it was.  The premium on physical is exactly what I watch and the gap between spot price vs physical has tightened considerably lately.  It is higher than it should be IMHO...but does anyone really know what the price should actually be then?

Yes, we all need silver dimes.  If anyone thinks I just started buying dimes a couple of days ago then I have a nice bridge in Tennessee to sell you.  Let's just get real.  What else do you plan to trade with?  I have some crisp uncirculated 50 billion Dinara Yugoslavian banknotes.  Can you make change?

I actually have the Yugoslavian 500 billion Dinara note.  That one is worth some fiat now.  When I look at that note, I just wish I could have went to a Yugoslavian bank and asked for singles.  I want 500 billion one Dinara notes.  How many semi-trailer loads of paper would that amount to?  I figured the singles could at least be used for fuel.

Is there a problem?

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:08 | 3406207 Tapeworm
Tapeworm's picture

The premium on 900 fine coin is at an all time high. Premium for all silver products is at an extreme.

 Gold premium is tracking the drop with plenty of availability while silver physical is scarce.

 I trust my source on this.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:26 | 3406255 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture

just bought sunshine 1 oz rounds for 69 cents an ounce over spot, free delivery..........of course you can't be a piker and only order 3   ;)

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:35 | 3406274 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 23:28 | 3406764 Himins
Himins's picture

I'm sorry, I just had to junk that one

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 00:31 | 3406799 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Why is it that you are junking people?  What was so wrong that you felt the need to junk?  

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:30 | 3406436 Stares straight...
Stares straight ahead's picture

Platinum got hammered almost $40 today. I suspect some people are getting the word that there may be an interest rate hike in the works. I am wondering if we (I) should hold out on purchasing a little longer.

So, in other news, silver is what- $27/oz or about? The US mint is asking $60 for its Eagles. That's quite a coin premium. What's going on there? shortages again? Price Un-discovery?
Found some better deals at overseas mints, yet to be executed. Again i think I will be patient. (And no, I am not a Simon Black fan.)

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:47 | 3406500 James
James's picture

If you saw $60.00 Silver Eagles @ the Mint they were Proofs.

Last time I looked @ price for my older Silver Eagles Proofs they were close in price to that.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:09 | 3406522 Stares straight...
Stares straight ahead's picture

Yes. You're right $. 59.95. For the uncirculated dollar coin SET. I misread it. he price for the set is given immediately below the eagle listing.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 23:15 | 3406728 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Sounds about the right price to me for the West Point proofs.  Proofs are cool but they are not my deal.  I like looking at them though as they are beautiful coins.  Some of those W's can get pretty pricey too.  To each their own though. 


The link from Stares Straight is actually referring to a proof set.(there is more than one coin)  They are W's. 

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:07 | 3406550 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

"The US mint is asking $60 for its Eagles. That's quite a coin premium. What's going on there? shortages again? Price Un-discovery?"

$60?  What?  Really?  Wow.  I have not been looking at OZ's of late  I tried to get into platinum when the gold price eclipsed the price of platinum some years back.  What a surprise that nothing was for sale all of a sudden.  I got into palladium for a while.  The premiums are EXTREMELY huge there.  Who buys palladium?  Who do you sell that metal to?  I bought in at $430 an ounce and paid a $40 premium for the Canadian Maples.  When I sold at $700 they took $40 back on the trade.  That's an $80 an ounce swing and makes my lips curl a bit.  PGM's are just too small of a market for me but I wish you the best.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:14 | 3406572 Stares straight...
Stares straight ahead's picture

Sorry. Error. See above.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 23:08 | 3406700 honestann
honestann's picture

20130403 : 20:00 PDT coin prices

- $1624 to $1614 for gold american eagle, qty 1 - 20
- $31.54 to $30.04 for silver american eagle, qty 1 - 500

spot gold - $1546
spot silver - $26.85

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 00:27 | 3406875 r3phl0x
r3phl0x's picture

That's partly due to paper + phyzz decoupling, partly due to the high premium on US mint coins, and mainly due to Apmex sucking. I'll just leave this here:

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 21:53 | 3410687 honestann
honestann's picture


Good reference.

When I first started buying PMs, some places had good prices, but took weeks or months for me to receive delivery.  That made me nervous.  One reason I liked APMEX was the fact the goods would appear 2 days after I paid for them.  More comfort, for me at least.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:42 | 3406126 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture

Why do people hate the U.S. Mail Service so?





I just got a 9.375 lb package of "auto parts" and 1000 rnds. of TulAmmo......Russian made 9mm fmj for shooting around the property, and letting anyone thereabouts know I'm well armed.....



I've been telling anyone who would listen for years that learning to be be self reliant like the Amish was in order........aaaaahhhhh the Amish........



Mary Yoder down by the culvert after a long night of pepper pickin;.......




mmmmmmmm the memories

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 19:47 | 3406149 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

They actually delivered a thousand rounds without chambering any of them?

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:06 | 3406168 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture

FMJ, not Janet Lesbian Hollow Points



I still +1 'd ya!

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 21:01 | 3406351 W74
W74's picture

Was that pun intended?  Amish.  Order.  As in Old Order Amish?  Nevermind.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 03:09 | 3407059 kurt
kurt's picture

Yoder? That's my sister. She's lookin for you, and so are we.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:10 | 3406210 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Great stuff, chock full of truism's.

Hang the elites.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:18 | 3406232 Billy Shears
Billy Shears's picture

Yeah, but I get "free" shit! /sarc

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:38 | 3406283 dolph9
dolph9's picture

The country is dead.  It's just waiting for the plug to be pulled and an autopsy to be done.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:42 | 3406288 dolph9
dolph9's picture

America was always going to end this way, as Stockman correctly identifies...with petulance.

Stocks must go up forever!

Everybody must become a millionaire!

The economy must never contract!

More cars and houses and strip malls and highways must be built!

The whole world must immigrate here!

If we aren't at war, then find a country to bomb!

Work harder, the Jews and blacks must be supported!


And if this doesn't happen, well then print money to make it happen!

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:59 | 3406685 honestann
honestann's picture

Hey, it worked for Zimbabwe!  They all became millionaires... then trillionaires... then quadrillionaires... then destitute.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 23:32 | 3406774 Walt D.
Walt D.'s picture

According to Krugman, the problem with Zimbabwe was that they did not spend enough!

However, this time in the US it is going to be different.

How long before we see signs in public restrooms - "please do not flush $100 bills down the toilet."

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 23:49 | 3406810 honestann
honestann's picture

And Krugman should know.

He is Bernanke's replacement.

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 20:57 | 3406340 are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

Stockman should say 'Free now, anyone but me pay later'

Or: 'The Honey Bobo and Keynesian endgame'

Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:06 | 3406548 web bot
web bot's picture

What's wonderful is that even Krugman mentioned Zero Hedge in his rant... which means he reads the ZH...

I'd like to know what his relationship was like with his father... I don't know but am willing to bet Guinness that it was something similar to how he reacts to people that he doesn't like.


Wed, 04/03/2013 - 22:09 | 3406563 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

HISTORY tells us that we are nothing more that animals to the "ruling" classes.]

Any other discussion is avoidance of reality.


We, as people, have no more signifigance or worth than cattle to be herded into behavior. Right now the herding is into another bubble that will strip away trillions. \


We have no voice until we act.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 00:29 | 3406884 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

The interesting thing is that the rulers' behavior is straight out of the animal world.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 00:25 | 3406876 The Heart
The Heart's picture

Question: How does a keynesian profit in a world that is no longer inhabitable by any kind of biological unit?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 01:56 | 3406991 Fizzywig
Fizzywig's picture

Krugman's retort on Stockman:

"Actually, I was disappointed in Stockman’s piece. I thought there would be some kind of real argument, some presentation, however tendentious, of evidence. Instead it’s just a series of gee-whiz, context- and model-free numbers embedded in a rant — and not even an interesting rant. It’s cranky old man stuff, the kind of thing you get from people who read Investors Business Daily, listen to Rush Limbaugh, and maybe, if they’re unusually teched up, get investment advice from Zero Hedge."

Now why did ya have to go and bring ZH into this?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 02:03 | 3407004 Notarocketscientist
Notarocketscientist's picture

Suggested reading - DARK AGES AMERICA - Morris Berman

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 08:49 | 3407433 esum
esum's picture

obese people dont revolt

if you have no skills or tech knowledge and can garner the equivalent of $80k/year tax free by playing the system, why would you work ... you are stupid if you do

1/2 of America has given up and are sheeple

the other half are too busy working and are looking for a vehicle to vent the rage 

it takes a special type of parasite to spend a lifetime eating from the public trough while buying tenure with socialst programs and tbtf bailouts. Chuck Schumer comes to mind ...btw the socialst war on poverty like the war on drugs has not worked.. 1960 = 2013 poverty levels  trillions wasted and millions of lives destroyed they did give us 50 million abortions though.... bravo, very civilized  Now they want to have post birth abortions .... leading to death panels for those over 55. Your teenager giving you shit... abort it

why are people leaving their funds in banks offering virtually no interest and why are people putting funds into 401Ks... financial self abuse .... cyprus

1/2 a mil and you can smell obowelmovement monthly

1/2 a mil and a "green jobs" scheme and you can get a 1/2 billion courtesy of the taxpayers

I doubt that the bilderburgers or the illuminati or bohemian grove or skull and bones or the fed or goldman sachs have things under control

the main stream media is our pravda

exactly wtf do the dept of education and dept of energy do

how do i get a government job so i can watch porn all day, go to conferences and party and not pay taxes and keep my job

michelle vs hitlary  with slooooow joe thrown in for laughs

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