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Mario Draghi Responds To Zero Hedge: "There Is No Plan B"

Tyler Durden's picture


This happened earlier today, at the ECB press conference:

Scott Solano, DPA: Mr Draghi, I've got a couple of question from the viewers at Zero Hedge, and one of them goes like this: say the situation in Greece or Spain deteriorates even further, and they want to or are forced to step out of the Eurozone, is there a plan in place so that the markets don't basically collapse? Is there some kind of structural system, structural safety net, especially in the area of derivatives? And the second questions is: you spoke earlier about the Emergency Liquidity Assistance, and what would have happened to the ELA in Cyprus, the approximately €10 billion, if the country had decided to leave the Eurozone?

Mario Draghi, ECB: Well you really are asking questions that are so hypothetical that I don't have an answer to them. Well, I may have a partial answer. These questions are formulated by people who vastly underestimate what the Euro means for the Europeans, for the Euro area. They vastly underestimate the amount of political capital that has been invested in the Euro. And so they keep on asking questions like: "If the Euro breaks down, and if a country leaves the Euro, it's not like a sliding door. It's a very important thing. It's a project in the European Union. That's why you have a very hard time asking people like me "what would happened if." No Plan B.

Secondly, I think the ECB has shown its determination to fight any redenomination risk. And OMT with its precise rules and acting within its mandate, is there to this purpose. So that's the answer to the first question.

The second question was about the ELA, but again it's related to "if Cyprus leaves"  and again we don't have that in mind, so.... No Plan B.

Informative. We do have three follow up questions:

  1. With Capital Controls in place in Cyprus indefinitely, do local ATMs dispense "political capital" instead of actual capital?
  2. If the Euro is not like a "sliding door", is there a more apt analogy of what the Euro is?
  3. What are the "precise rules" of the OMT? Earlier, Mr. Draghi replied to the FT's Michael Steen, who asked for the second time month in a row, if there will ever be a legal term-sheet for the OMT, that "he hopes so" - it appears to us that based on this answer there are not only no precise rules for the OMT, but there are no rules period.

Finally, here is the response by the EURUSD the second the Zero Hedge questions were asked.

The full exchange takes place 57 minutes 45 seconds into the clip below:

And in Italy:


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Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:36 | 3407854 Dr.
Dr.'s picture

Classic, Tylers!

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:42 | 3407884 ghandi
ghandi's picture

Well deserved Kudos!

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:47 | 3407903 Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

look at the dudes face 57:56, upper left



Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:48 | 3407924 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

Plan B is of course Draghi and all of the other hapless central planners are thrown out, the nation state prevails and we go back on the path of 5,000 years of previous history to sound money.


Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:50 | 3407932 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

I think any question is basically pointless.  No disrespect to ZH or SS, but this fucker lies like crazy, as they all do.  Didn't Cyprus pass the "stress test" within the last year?  FARCE.  Draghi is full of shit.


Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:59 | 3407961 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



No Plan B.

Horseshit.  Plan B stands for Bonds...EuroBonds.



PS:  Scott, the absolutely beautiful brunette to your left thinks you are kind of cute.  Go for it. 

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:01 | 3408002 Spider
Spider's picture

So no "sliding door" exit means what?  Looks like someone is going to be breaking right through the glass ... not going to be pretty folks.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:06 | 3408032 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

When political capital becomes more important than financial capital you end up with no capital at all.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:12 | 3408053 Popo
Popo's picture

Uh... But Mr Draghi, the Maastricht treaty does allow for nations to leave the Eurozone.

So given that nations *are* allowed to leave:


Either you have falsely represented the nature of the European Union to the peoples of Europe, or you are grossly negligent in your role.

Pick one.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:14 | 3408085 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



Pick one.

Why just one?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:18 | 3408107 redpill
redpill's picture

Eurofucked - Adj. - The state of realization that your tiny broke country that you thought was part of a voluntary union of sovereigns is actually a perpetual debt slave with no future.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:23 | 3408132 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture




Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:28 | 3408150 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Was there ever a 'PLAN A'?...

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:48 | 3408236 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

So What Does That Mean ?????

They Have DECIDED For ALL...

It's EURO Or DEATH ???

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:52 | 3408262 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



Plan C is ZRRP (Zero Reserve Ratio Policy). 


"...the system of reserve requirements is not needed to the same extent as under normal circumstances..."

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:34 | 3408471 Matt
Matt's picture

Euro goes purely digital. Your money can only be moved between banks and accounts within banks as you make purchases and recieve wages; you can never withdraw paper bills.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:38 | 3408499 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

Key 9 seconds at 59:35…

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:42 | 3408523 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

That's right, you stupid fucking iTalian dragon. Be scurred.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 16:19 | 3409604 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

It's not a sliding door, it's a trap door.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 17:23 | 3409896 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

and lets not forget to thank mr. scott sure at this time bringing up o-hedge is like having aids, ......thank you scott for probably never ever being asked back to another press conference, but it was so worth if we can get stutterin john to ask the next quest. that would be awesome.....

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:08 | 3408345 BorisTheBlade
BorisTheBlade's picture

Why 'or', it could be both, first euro, then slow and painful death in the name of European integration.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:50 | 3409509 Spigot
Spigot's picture

You forget that these idiots actually believe they control Euroland, etc. They are delusional sociopaths. When the Captain and the First Mate and all the officers of a ship are mad as hatters, its time to jump ship next port, yes?

Plan A has been in the works since 2009 wherein they gave themselves the "power" to resolve organizations (banks and non-banks) by fiat, simply by using depositor accounts (a liability to the organization) as insurance to make the organization whole. Their first test of this was Cyrus: FAIL. There literally is no Plan B. That is their entire plan.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:31 | 3408156 Middle_Finger_Market
Middle_Finger_Market's picture

Zero Hedge is my rock. Salute el capitains! 

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:24 | 3408413 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

Eurofucked - Adj. - The state of realization that your tiny broke country that you thought was part of a voluntary union of sovereigns

Kind of like these United States ca. 1860 (as opposed to THE United States that emerged afterward). 

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:35 | 3408122 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

i have a question....what if the titantic hits and iceberg an sinks?...i cant answer that, cause it cant life boats idiot...

edit...and that last chick at the end is fricking smokin...burgundy top....

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:42 | 3408212 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

The Plan is, their is no plan...thats the plan...


Just let everything get perverted - the economy/financials, religion, nationality, genders and family...

Divide & conquer


'They' Create the Chaos...


And then 'they' bring in there Order...

Thats when it starts to get 'bad.'

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:15 | 3408392 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Europe will get around to the realization they need a final solution for their old people. Just goes along with the mass dehumanization the statist freaks have been advancing. First the baby bust then a few decades later bust out the painkiller overdose syringes, as is routinely done in the europeon sick care system. Or just dont give them water some hot afternoon so they dehydrate to death, in agony, like the French did to 15k old people during a hot spell a few years back.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:00 | 3408624 The Heart
The Heart's picture

If one were to add up the ways the population reduction agenda is attacking and killing the world's populations, it would stagger the normal thinking mind.

You have the air filled with chemtrails and more that most have never heard of. You have the water filled with all sorts of poisons. The foods are GMO for most with more chemicals in them. The big pharmaceutical companies are killing many every day. The lame stream media is killing the world's people with dis/mis-information. The politicians all lie to further this globalist murderous agenda. Chemicals are seeping into every part of life. Starvation is rampant.The oceans are dead. The radiation is being allowed to spew it's slow killing effects onto the entire world from all over, with fukushima being the worst crime of all. Gee, have we forgotten anything? Add your globalist population control/reduction killing method here if one has been missed.

Long story short, there are more things killing off mankind than there was say, two hundred years ago. All part of the banksters world domination and population reduction plans. This kind of evil in the killing of the elders happens in the USA also. They drug the elders, starve, and dehydrate them also. No one really cares about the dying old folks. This is a crime to humanity to ignore those who gave so much so many could have what they have today. If you have not been to an old folks home to SEE those who are suffering, you should go. Anyone that can watch all that suffering without feeling their pain, and then multiply that by thousands of hospices all over the world, is just not human. Pray for those who suffer with no family or friends to be there in the final days of one's life. This is one of the saddest realities in this unreality that there is.

Pray for the poor and suffering human kind that are ALL dying slowly every day. Hedge that!

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 15:04 | 3409309 BTFDemocracy
BTFDemocracy's picture

I like how the Brunette to the left of Scott starts smirking when he mentions ZeroHedge.

Fri, 04/05/2013 - 00:50 | 3411154 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Your nonsense is disturbing. The population is ever-increasing and the food for the population is ever-decreasing.

This leaves nature no choice: you can’t provide food & water if there is none.

There’s an over-population agenda not a de-population agenda. The agenda is to ensure more babies are made for slavery to the elite, more deaths happen so life-spans get shorter for the serfs only, more debt and begging is needed so the slaves never feel they have a choice to run, nowhere on Earth to escape to.

As for everything else "killing man off" there's so many more things in medicine, running water & sanitation, irrigation for farms, keeping so many more people alive & over-birthing today than ever before, the mere risk of some toxins causing some of the weaker humans to be ill or die isn't keeping pace. Even war isn't keeping pace like it used to do vs the entire birthing population of sheeples.

Know who runs a lot of the elite? The VATICAN. Know what their policy is? NO BIRTH CONTROL, MAKE MANY BABIES.

That's the real elite agenda.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:49 | 3408260 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You can ask me anything, anything.  Except, what would happen if?  Too much political capital to answer such pettiness.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:04 | 3408325 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

No its actually the right answer. This closet dollar bull hotel wont fess up to the reality that the Eurozone is not stupid enough to print to oblivion like the print zone does.


Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:17 | 3408400 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

You lost me at "the euro zone is not stupid"

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:35 | 3408485 Popo
Popo's picture

Serious question: Is it possible to have "no plan B" and still be a democracy?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:42 | 3408517 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

serious answer: it happened before, many times - in fact democracies are famous in history for being stubborn on certain matters (and quite fickle on others)

serious question: has any country a Plan B for it's currency?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 22:54 | 3410915 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Twelve year old Victoria Grant does,

though of course she can't speak for the rest of her fellow Canuckistanians, who must be utterly oblivious.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:32 | 3408551 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



You can ask me anything, anything. Except, what would happen if?

Do you really believe that Mario vastly underestimates the possibility of the liklyhood ratio not being zero? 

No way. 

Plan B cometh, and you will beg for it.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:16 | 3408717 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Democracy=tyranny. A republic is what you want, of limitited enumerated powers, respectful of natural rights, with election of representatives. Too much democracy is the problem. Democracies vote goodies from the public treasury to be paid for by minorities.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 13:42 | 3411157 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Nonsense again. Democracy is freedom. It’s choice. Without democracy only state-run dictatorship by elites can exist. There is no 3rd choice. Back before mass-transit globally there was a 3rd choice: nomadic tribes. That choice is gone.


and I see a red arrow but no reply.

Perhaps you'd like corruption to the core encoded to the laws of the land, slavery & whores, military dominance in a Constitutional Republic... Rome again? That's what would happen to the USA if it was to remove democracy.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:52 | 3408268 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

ZH shining the light on the cockroaches...

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:11 | 3408358 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

"edit...and that last chick at the end is fricking smokin...burgundy top...."

I like the brunnette chick looking over at Solano.  Not the chunky red head, although a couple of beers may change my mind.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:33 | 3408458 knukles
knukles's picture

If I didn't know any better I'd guess that the Hedge is populated by a buncha lecherous old geezers.
But I do know better.
It is populated by a buncha sick twisted funny old geezers....

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:01 | 3408634 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

55 and trying....

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:07 | 3408680 pods
pods's picture

Some young(ish) ones too knukles. :)

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 20:27 | 3410454 Tunga
Tunga's picture

she's googling; What is so funny about zero hedge? 
I'd google that. 

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:08 | 3408331 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

Plan B is being developed and implemented. Draghi knows this and did not address the preparations some banks are making for redenomination risk.

This is a paper from the Bank of International Settlements (BIS) which interprets the current increasing trend of Target 2 balances of Eurozone banks, especially the Bundesbank in Germany.

"5. Changes in TARGET2 balances: hedging redenomination risk

But changing TARGET2 balances do not reflect only the stock adjustments of German banks. They also reflect banks’ response to the risk of a re-emergence of national currencies, so- called redenomination risk. The response by some banks headquartered outside the euro area has been to exaggerate the pattern of financing of the peripheral deficits in the 2000s, which saw core Europe finance peripheral Europe’s global deficits while the rest of the world accumulated claims on core European governments (Chen et al (2012) p 4).

Draghi (2012) interpreted yields in peripheral Europe in 2012 as reflecting not just the credit risk of strained sovereign and bank finances, but also redenomination risk.8 As market analysts subsequently pointed out, pinning down the redenomination risk in prices requires a host of heroic assumptions. These included, at least in the analysis by MacGorain (2012), the probability of exit, the scale of the subsequent depreciation, and the price of the bond in the new currency. Rather than enter into such calculations, we look for evidence in banking quantities during the first quarter of 2012.

And this analysis of the BIS report is quite interesting.

"Cecchetti, McCauley, and McGuire (2012) believe this suggests both foreign and European banks continue to harbor doubts about Europe’s future.

The downtick in France’s (red) target 2 imbalances is also noteworthy. I’m very negative on French bonds.

The large exposure of German banks to the rest of Europe partly explains the willingness of Germany to back “extend and pretend loans” and ECB printing...I have suggested on several occasions that Germany could be among the first to leave the Euro. One could argue this is happening; of course, this trend could reverse.

Catalysts for Germany removal: a. Europe pushes through laws for joint Euro bonds despite Germany’s resistance or b. Europe otherwise passes resolutions that threaten Germany’s sovereignty.

The less risk German banks have to the rest of Europe, the more likely German removes itself. Regardless, Target 2 balances are worth watching."

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:33 | 3408452 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

The BIS, EU, IMF, Fed Reserve, and other central planning groups have really done it.

There will be enormous disruption to peoples' lives world-wide and because of the internet there exists an unprecidented understanding of the source of the problem this go-round.

In the 1930s, FDR said the crash was because of a "few bad apples" and better regulations were required.  That will not suffice this time.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:01 | 3408630 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

You underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.  They have the internet, too.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 17:40 | 3409974 nuinut
nuinut's picture

... and they congregate here.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:58 | 3408616 Tunga
Tunga's picture

What ever happened to that Mussolini guy?
Hypothetically speaking of course.  

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 18:22 | 3410109 Tunga
Tunga's picture

If you do not have a plan "B" one will be provided to you with no charge.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 18:43 | 3410173 Tunga
Tunga's picture

Subliminal message to all Japanese sports car driving Vatican assassins'; Walk in's welcome! Mr. Benelli will be happy to talk to you anytime. 

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:58 | 3408596 Stock Tips Inve...
Stock Tips Investment's picture

Obviously they have a plan B. What happens is that the European situation is very critical. So Plan B is so ugly that it would only do so if they had to face public this difficult situation. Europe can not face additional panics.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:35 | 3408774 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



Obviously they have a plan B.

Obviously they (GS et al) want Plan B, but they need you to want Plan B, too.  What to do?

Plan B, EuroBonds, also stands for briar patch.


"Drown me! Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please," said Brer Rabbit. "Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:51 | 3408265 californiagirl
californiagirl's picture

What I would like to know is which union will the billionaire "political capital"ists force upon us next in their quest for worldwide control and looting? Will it be the North American Union, forcing us to absorb the bloody gangsterocracy of Mexico? Will it be some kind of Muslim union (is that why the Arab Spring was instigated)? Which is it?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:02 | 3408312 Vashta Nerada
Vashta Nerada's picture

Political capital has a cash value of zero.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:12 | 3408327 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

When political capital becomes more important than financial capital you end up with no capital at all.


Best comment I've seen this week so far.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:08 | 3408043 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

I think the implication is that it's more like the door on a jail cell.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:23 | 3408051 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

Permanent Plan "B"

Hats off to Scott for asking...

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:30 | 3408159 redpill
redpill's picture

Or a screen door on a submarine...

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:40 | 3408211 LuckoftheIrish
LuckoftheIrish's picture

Exactly! I wondered what he was talking about, "sliding door"?? Did he mean "revolving door", or as you so aptly put it, jail cell??

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:46 | 3408541 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Translation is an art not a science, just as linguistic hair splitting is an art and not a science.

One could characterize the response as baffling them with bullshit, perpetuating the big lie, or a more eloquent rendition of Diesel-Booming by a more experienced politician

Regardless, the on-the-spot answer exposes some flaws in the ECB's reasoning-

Plan A in Cyprus did not gain a single vote of support among the elected Cypriot politicians.   The plan they finally went with renders the business model of the very unstable and out-sized banking banking incapable of continuing to support the local economy.  So the economy will shrink, and drastically.  As a member of the eurozone, Cyprus is unable to implement independent monetary policy, and the chosen monetary policy for the broader eurozone may have negative impacts on the Cypriot economy which outweigh the economic benefits of remaining in the currency union.  Even in the current crippled state of the Cypriot economy a plan to exit the eurozone would likely receive more political support from elected politicians in Cyprus then did the last plan to remain in the eurozone that was put before those very politicians.

Regardless of how much political capital has been invested in pursuit of the eurozone vision, that does not mean that the investment was wise or will even ultimately prove profitable.  To argue otherwise is pure hubris.

If the deterioration of economy in Cyprus proves too painful, there will be political pressure to leave the currency union.  The political tools to offset such pressure are rather unappealing, both from an ideological and political standpoint.  They could supress the sovereign rights of the people of Cyprus, or they could chose to underwrite and finance economic transition at the expense of taxpayers elsewhere in the eurozone.

Others invested significant political capital in the partnership of East Germany to the USSR.  There was no plan B.  Those in power were able to perpetuate the status quo for about 40 years.  Without Plan B, however, even the steel and concrete embodiment of the investment in that partnership came down in short order.  The eurozone has only been running policy for a little over a decade, and already there are significant cracks in the wall, which are not being tended to.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:03 | 3408639 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Exactly.  You're spot on again, McMolotov.  

Only a few people have the key to that cell.  

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:12 | 3408058 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

 In the meantime, I got this plan. It's called "Save Ass". And the way it works is this - I slip outta one of these windows and I run like a bastard


assault on precinct 13



Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:12 | 3408070 duo
duo's picture

hopefully it's safety glass

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:17 | 3408092 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

i knew, we here at the hedge were to stupid to understand the "real men of genius"....i feel so stupid after hearing the man tell me i am so stupid.........

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:41 | 3408519 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

One would have to be stupid in order to "understand" anything coming out of Stupid Mario's mouth. They must really trust the MSM to spin the sound bites correctly if they're willing to insult everyone's intelligence in such a direct fashion.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:47 | 3408252 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

It's like the Roach Motel. They check in, but they can never check out.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 18:22 | 3410106 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture


2. If the Euro is not like a "sliding door", is there a more apt analogy of what the Euro is?


Um, iron-bar hotel?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:07 | 3408031 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

eurobonds? you mean what Wall Street, the City, the Economist, Financial Times and Dr. Krugman are asking for since years? let me guess: followed by eurotaxes and then of course an euroarmy, euronavy, eurointelligence, europolice and so on?


Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:21 | 3408119 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Financial products are exciting to finance nerds. Whattayagonnado?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:25 | 3408134 Going Loco
Going Loco's picture

eurotaxes - check

euroarmy - not yet

euronavy - not yet

eurointelligence - check

europolice - check

Vote UKIP.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:26 | 3408138 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

You already have your Euro police (interpol. Do they handle financial crimes yet?) my point would be as long as they keep underestimating our ability in the sack then everything should be just fine...

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:46 | 3408237 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Interpol? it has 190 freaking nations as members - even the US is a member

LOL, is there no way to get this message across? not-a-copy-of-US

the US Secret Service alone had last time I've looked 22'000 agents - the whole damn EU employee count is... 30'000

the whole damn budget of the EU is set by the member countries - and the very EU parliament is currently complaining it's too little

can you imagine the governors of 50 US States having a meeting and deciding what Federal Washington is allowed to spend?

this is in line with what Draghi is saying: a lot of talk about badly researched and understood foreign matters - with the constant assumption that we europeans - particularly eurozoners - are copying the UK/US model and using the same standards and methods


perhaps I have to take an example from nature: it might look like a whale, but it's a school of fish

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:57 | 3408271 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



it's a school of fish

The EZ is a school of remora, to be exact, all sucking off Germany's guilt and productivity.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:04 | 3408314 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

are you flip-flopping on your usual position or is this Mrs. Hedgeless? Sorry, I can't understand this ZH commenter obsession with Germany and France, constantly either sucking the others dry or being sucked dry from the others

I usually try to improve the general understanding, here, and appreciate when others do it with mine

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:16 | 3408391 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

When the petro-dollar dies, does the euro wish to replace it?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:34 | 3408466 The Heart
The Heart's picture

"When the petro-dollar dies, does the euro wish to replace it?"

You mean, when the euro dies, will the ruble/yaun replace it?

Here is some more entertaining video from Greg Hunter interviewing John Williams.

It is no secret that the greatest thinkers, movers, and shakers all gather on the Hedge to see what the astute forum has to share every day. Give thanks, only because it might wake the right hundredth monkey up and that monkey might push the right thing buttons to spare the earth and the human population another cycle of the bankster/MIC world war.

And how come jp morgue profits from the ammunition sales, and actually own most of the munitions factories? Did they get their puppet soeterobama to impose all the gun control for greater profits? Is that criminal? Are they making ammo for everyone else but the American people now?

Hummmm....things to ponder.

Blessing to all!




Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:44 | 3408531 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

The ruble/yuan is a possibity...........The Euro-centric people/news that I follow (not that i necessarily agree with them) indicate that the Saudi's are on board with a petro-euro.......

the only things that matter to TPB are oil, gold and curriencies and in a post dollar world, what currency is oil priced in.............



Thu, 04/04/2013 - 14:56 | 3409264 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Ruble is a demographic deathbed currency zone. So is yuan. So is euro. The US isn't. That's how the dollar is hanging on, that and the us strategic and institutional advantages over these other three. Not that I'm happy with this, as it allows TPTB in the USA to screw up the USA longer and deeper than they otherwise could.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:34 | 3408396 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



are you flip-flopping on your usual position


It appears that you fail to understand that just because I (frequently) state that EuroBonds are a likely eventuality, it does not mean that I am supportive of EuroBonds.  It is very German of you to assume a correlation, however, none exists between predictions and preferences. 


I can't understand this ZH commenter obsession with Germany and France

C'est vrai, I do very much enjoy German cars and French cuisine.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:46 | 3408545 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

then it would help my understanding if you would explain why it's a "likely eventuality" instead of ogling cute reporters ;-)

btw, why do you think I'm German? because I often defend them?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:21 | 3408610 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



why it's a "likely eventuality"

  1. Europe needs MOAR collateral
  2. EuroBonds would deepen the pool for MOAR sychronized diving with the USD, GBP, and JPY
  3. EuroBonds mean MOAR profit for the banks
  4. It can easily be pitched as, "It works in America, so what is the big deal?"
  5. These folks will try anything before letting the Euro fail

I don't know that you are German, but that particular behavior is.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:34 | 3408807 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Ghordios, You constantly try to improve your general level of acceptance and standing here and be appreciated for
saying things you think most of us agree upon. Then
you slip in your pro-EU and pro-EURO propaganda.

In 101 subversive indoctrination they call this "inner critique", pretend you are one of them and criticize
from within.

You have perfected this to an art but I still can`t make sense of you. ZH swarm intelligence got you caught a few times but you carry on regardless. You ain`t stupid but
try to further that failed EU thing, you are supportive
of issues that dominate here from an US point of view while
coming across as an agent of the EUdSSR. If I`m wrong and unjust to you, distance yourself from the totalitarian part
of which is the worst dictatorship Europe has seen on this scale.

Can you Sir, answer this single simple question : While we have established you ain`t stupid why in hell would you be a fool for pro EUdSSR propaganda, unless you are a paid for tool ?

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 17:20 | 3411369 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

let's say I try to be a friend of truth

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:41 | 3408215 smacker
smacker's picture

Eurobonds are certainly the dream of some EZ member states, but not of others at this time.

The EZ members will have a hard job getting them agreed by 17 national parliaments, so the only way would be to by-pass democracy and intro them thru the back door. And EBs would require a number of other changes to be implemented standardisation across national budgets and approved by unelected EU-crats in Brussels etc.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:56 | 3408284 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

at this time I fail to see even one parliament that would vote yes on eurobonds, to be frank

further I don't see how the EU-crats would profit from eurobonds as long as their budget is decided by the member countries

I also don't see why you have a problem with the appointed EU-crats making a review of national budgets

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:45 | 3408532 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Congratulations! Admitting your failure to see is the first step on your road to recovery.

Perhaps there's hope for you evil statists yet?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:24 | 3408764 smacker
smacker's picture

"at this time I fail to see even one parliament that would vote yes on eurobonds"

Well, that obviously would depend on what the details of the EB terms were. A few countries would love them.


"I also don't see why you have a problem with the appointed EU-crats making a review of national budgets"

If you cannot see the problem here, then you fail to understand how democracy works (or is supposed to work). Further, if the EU-crats were entitled to review national budgets, what does that actually mean in practice? and how long before they had the power to reject a national budget thru a sign-off procedure? hhmmm.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:14 | 3408382 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture


No Plan B.


"Let's go straight... to plan C."

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:55 | 3408594 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

She reads ZH - watch the expression she makes when he mentions ZH.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:56 | 3407976 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Bwahahaha. 57:56. Look at the faces of ALL the reporters behind him when he mentions the ZH.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:00 | 3407989 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

We'll see how long they keep laughing.

This is a reality zone and reality will bite hard when they start to come off their prozac.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:06 | 3408008 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



...the faces of ALL the reporters behind him

I only noticed one.

God forbid that Mrs. Horseman ever decides to trade up...


Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:08 | 3408037 resurger
resurger's picture

You have Hawk Eyes HH



Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:13 | 3408064 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



...always have a Plan B.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:30 | 3408151 malikai
malikai's picture

She's particularly interested in Scott's political capital.

She wants to know more.

I like how she got a chuckle after he mentioned ZH.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:47 | 3408872 Max Hunter
Max Hunter's picture

All I could watch was the smirk on that Bitchez face.. Hey Tyler, the next time you decide to ask a stupid question let me know so I can buy some XDE calls with VERY short EXP on them.. Your's Truly, ALL US daytraders..

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:10 | 3408050 clawsthatscratch
clawsthatscratch's picture

The best thing about the video!! 

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:33 | 3408165 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Go to the brunette in red next to the woman asking the question at about 1:00:00...

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:49 | 3408516 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Excellent pick HH. This type is sensual and seeks the
challenge on an intellectual level while still making out
well , at times violently so. If we were at a party here
before long she would be seen chatting me up after the initial glance. Or you of course... ;-).

Been there, done that : foreign correspondent, needed a
stallion that could answer all the questions and had read all the books she was told about. Mean, jealous leftist millionaires daughter and viciously subversive in the long

Despite their constant attack mode they display a feminine
vulnerability and can easily be submissive if need be.

Don`t fall for one of those. Intellectual curiosity killed the calling tomcat...

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:03 | 3408011 bsdetector
bsdetector's picture

If we did not realize this before... we now know... ZH is on the map. Perhaps rather than continuous criticism of the status quo this site can be a source of authority for the way forward. Don't get me wrong, criticism of the status quo should not stop. I hope to hear more about how we can get out of the debacle the status quo has created.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:08 | 3408042 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

Ya, it's scary to think we're moving and shaking the world from our collective spasms of clarity.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:26 | 3408137 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Like a Sunday in TJ, it's cheap but it's not free.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:21 | 3408406 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Spasms are, by their very nature... "transitory".

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:46 | 3408547 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

We'll know the price has been set the instant this site disappears, replaced by a DMCA takedown notice.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:21 | 3408114 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

I think there has been discussion of ways to move forward.  I'm not sure there is a consensus.  I'm not sure you are paying attention.  I sense the kind of left-handed criticism, that I for one, have seen all to often from shills for the status quo.

Stick around and get educated.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:24 | 3408135 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

There is no "getting out". People need to get their collective arms aroun this. "What comes next" is a fine conversation. Unfortunately, those who control the narrative of what's happening now have the only real say in what comes next. See the problem?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:38 | 3408197 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

My answer to Draghi's bullshit:

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:49 | 3407944 bania
bania's picture

Not sliding door more like hotel california

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:12 | 3408369 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

"Plan B" is for Draghi and the other central planners to pull out their second passports, climb on a plane with their families and stashes of gold, and disappear forever to a country without extradition treaties with any Eurozone country.


"Plan C" is the same as "Plan B" above with the exception that the families are left to fend for themselves, and the hottie girlfriend makes the trip instead...

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:53 | 3408910 laomei
laomei's picture

Plan B is what happens when a state tries to leave a union it joined willingly.  Either the union falls apart entirely, or it uses force to prevent it from happening.  Collapse or war... economic or physical, take your pick.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 17:38 | 3409955 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

I still don't believe they have a plausible plan A.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:49 | 3407940 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Draghi was right, those were ridiculous questions.

It isn't about anyone leaving the euro, and the EU and IMF were just responding to a crisis and a plea of help rom Cyprus.

The question is, why isn't Draghi doing more?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:51 | 3407958 ghandi
ghandi's picture

No. The question is why aren't you sucking on my bald, hungry nutz!



Thu, 04/04/2013 - 10:56 | 3407980 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

Yes, we need more of a failed policy.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:00 | 3408003 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Can we have a discussion without all of the ad hominem attacks?

Can we get down to the facts?

This is why the other reporters and Draghi laughed when told the questions were coming from Zero Hedge readers.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:06 | 3408021 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

At what point in time you would declare the current policy a "failed policy"?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:10 | 3408048 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

The policy has failed because they haven't done enough to grow their economy.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:11 | 3408060 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

"haven't done enough"

If not more of the same, what else?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:28 | 3408149 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

You want answers, nonclaim?  You'll have to buy the book.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:51 | 3408266 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

The silence is satisfying. Thank you.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:08 | 3408329 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

I thought your question was rhetorical.  They should lower rates and install a program like the U.S. and Japan have.  And if you would like to read the book...

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:27 | 3408428 BigJim
BigJim's picture

No matter how much the government does, when it inevitably fails, the answer is always 'more', isn't it Paul?

Despite the fact it was government intervention in money and markets that caused the underlying (and yet to be cleared) capital misallocations in the first place.

Just how much would be 'enough' in your eyes?

BTW - the flaws in your 'reasoning' keep getting exposed by your intellectual superiors... here, for instance:

and here:

On second thoughts, they may not be any more intelligent than you are. Just more intellectually honest.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:18 | 3408065 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:24 | 3408123 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

The "genius," if one can call it that, of economic interventionism is that its supporters can simply claim there hasn't been enough intervention to solve a particular problem. This also absolves them of any responsibility for the negative consequences of their actions. They are thus never proven to be incorrect, hence Dr. Krugman's "Why isn't he [Draghi] doing more?" question.

We are deemed heretics for even questioning such a policy. The supporters of economic interventionism take it as a gospel truth that it works at some point, and because they start from that assumption, they can never be dissuaded otherwise.

It is faith-based economics, and in any discussion with religious zealots, you know they're always right.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:48 | 3408256 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

This is ridiculous.  Compare U.S. policy and Europe:  Europe has used fiscal austerity and the U.S. has accommodated the needs of the people.  Unemployment is still high in Europe, and it has fallen in the U.S.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:03 | 3408300 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


Let's look at this shall we?

The unemployment rate has fallen not because of correct policy but because of systematic discounting some of the continuing unemployed.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:30 | 3408436 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Here you show the main flaw in the keynesian theory: short term thinking. Of course money printing (taking more drugs) feels better to some degree on a short term. But think about the long term consequences. I can't believe I'm still trying to point this out to a troll but maybe someone learns from it.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:21 | 3408752 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

If I have a PhD in civil engineering but there are no engineering jobs and I'm working 3 fast food jobs, you and your ilk would pat each other on the back for building an economy that creates 3 jobs for everyone.  Woo hoo!  Pass the Nobel!

Your only defense is to point out that things suck, but without the state they would suck worse, when there is absolutely no basis of comparison because we haven't ever had a truly free market in this country (and please spare me the Somalia bullshit).  

When you don't have a control to test your hypothesis (no free market, just bad regulations in a centrally-planned economy) your findings are bogus. That's the study of economics in a nutshell.  It's a study, not an empirical truth.  



Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:54 | 3408269 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

Why isn't Draghi in jail?

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 14:25 | 3409091 e-recep
e-recep's picture

nice analogy. it's like questioning the existence of allah in iran or of god in vatican. questioning qe and deposit grabs? how dare you???

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:26 | 3408142 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

You are right.  We haven't put enough banksters and politicians in jail.  Right after we do that we can discuss what more should be and who is providing the more.

Until then ... less, less, less.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:05 | 3408022 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


Centrally-planned interest rates and debt-based money do not work. 

There is nothing funny about that and the resolutions suggested by those stuck in the current monetary paradigm do not work.  Those are the facts.

ZH's are cognizant of this fact and others are coming to this realization as well.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:11 | 3408062 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Yet the U.S. policy has been such and the UE rate has dropped substantially but in Europe. where the refuse to lower rates and do not use their programs - Olli Rehn - unemployment is high, high, high!

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:16 | 3408086 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


We are in a debt bubble collapse caused by CB central planners.  And the collapse is worldwide.

No interest rate "policy" is going to fix that.  In fact, it will only increase the current misallocation of capital and create more bubbles as we are seeing.


Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:22 | 3408118 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

Your opinion is such - the facts state otherwise.

Japan has higher debt/GDP than the U.S., yet have they collapsed?  No.

And increasing debt now will mean growth and future growth and then that will be the time to pay the debt back.  You do not try to cut during a depression, anyone with an education knows that.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:26 | 3408145 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


Read this and you will see why low interest rates do not solve problems and only compound them:

Using the mallet of money printing to solve a problem caused by money printing does not work.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:31 | 3408167 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

I stopped reading after "the Austrian tradition".

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:44 | 3408177 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


There you have the problem.

To intellectually advance, you need to intellectually consider information, not viscerally reject that which does not fit with your own preconceptions.

I see why you revert to the idea that the EU need to do more bond purchases, deficit spending, etc. which have not worked.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:45 | 3408241 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

The Austrian school is today's version of bloodletting - it doesn't work.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:33 | 3408258 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


Criticizing a system using an ad hominem is not sufficient.

The Austrian School simply shows that the market economy only functions with a stable medium of exchange and why disrupting that medium will lead to bubbles, misallocations of capital, and ultimately collapse.

...And it has correctly predicted the current crisis of central banking, fiat money, market intervention etc.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 14:50 | 3409227 noless
noless's picture

but that's krugmans whole game, when he's stumped he wails " AD HOMINEM" whether taking or giving. he's a shill, and whoevers playing him under "dr paul krugman" either is the real deal (as he has the intellectual inconsistancy down) or a great actor.


krugman is a tool and will support through obfuscated half truths whatever he is paid to.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:42 | 3408218 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Biased much? 

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:45 | 3408239 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Here... I'll make it simple for you.  Virtually all "money" is loaned into existence with interest attached to it (our current monetary system of fiat money and fractional reserve banking).  Only the system does not have the "money" to repay both principle and interest.  The interest is not represented.  So in order for the original "creator" of the money to be paid both principle and interest, more "money" must be created (i.e. more debt must be loaned into existence... this debt also has interest attached).  Rinse and repeat.  The problem isn't "growth" the problem is math.  Aggregate debt in this system MUST continually increase.  If it doesn't, you face cascading defaults... collapse.   The system doesn't care who takes on the debt, only that new debt is constantly issued.  This is why the real Paul Krugman appropriately called Greenspan's move to inflate a housing bubble.  

Krugman is right to a certain extent.  They aren't "doing enough"... because that's how the exponential function works.  Each "next round" needs to be greater than the one before.  And going bigger will work... until it doesn't.  Then it's the mother of all collapses.  

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:43 | 3408525 Going Loco
Going Loco's picture

I thought the problem with the system which you (correctly) describe is that in the past there was economic growth which encouraged private actors to increase their debts, but that growth was predicated on an abundant and increasing supply of cheap energy, and the end of the era of cheap energy means that the growth has disappeared. I try to avoid saying anything that gets me labelled as a "peak oiler" but it seems to me that if energy is expensive growth must be constrained and that is why we see the dearth of "private" money creation by private actors borrowing money, and the perceived need for governments to replace them as debtors. I agree with you that "they" will think that "they" need to do more and more tp keep the ball rolling but I also think that the reason it cannot work is that part of every new unit of currency will find its way into higher energy prices and without energy there can be no growth. Another way of looking at the problem is that even an exponential increase in the creation of money as debt can work for ever if you assume that all the otjer elements of an economy continue to perform as they have in the past. But that does not happen when there are resource constraints, particulalry constraints on energy resources, and it certainly does not happen if people loose confidence in currency/ies. The gold stackers on this board lost confidence in currency a long time ago and have been proved to have been too early. But I can foresee a day when "they" have created so much new money to keep the ball rolling that oil costs $1,000 a barrel and the general population lose confidence in their currencies. It is for those reasons that I think we will have to find new measures of economic activity and new ways to issue and control the quantity of money, and we will certainly have to cope at some point with a change in the role of money. I think we will always need money as a unit of account and a medium of exchange but I think its days as a store of value are over and we should recognise and possibly even encourage that.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 13:10 | 3408693 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Infinite growth required and finite resources as the constraint.  But even if oil stayed cheap, the cost of maintaining the debt eventually drags on the real economy.  As aggregate debt expands towards infinity, resources are allocated away from productive use.  Expensive energy merely adds to the problem (though possibly at a rate greater than the cost associated with maintaining debt).  If tomorrow we found a free source of energy, the math behind the problem of debt money with interest attached would still be with us, I believe.

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 11:33 | 3408168 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Far more than interest rate manipulation and the government spending nilly willy is required here.  Nuts and bolts reforms are required, including jail time.

Your thoughts on jail time, Mr Krugman?

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