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These Charts Better Not Reflect The True State Of The US Economy

Tyler Durden's picture


Lately, when it comes to obtaining an accurate sense of the true state of the US economy, it is as difficult if not more than analyzing the openly-manipulated Chinese data. On one hand, the Fed-juiced market, which has lost its discounting powers, no longer reflects the current or future economic (or corporate) fundamentals, on the other, massive seasonal aberrations, whether purposeful or accidental, have made a mockery of any data series, be it jobs, manufacturing, retail sales, or housing. On the other, the administration - still stuck in the worst economic "recovery" since the Great Depression - is desperate to telegraph an improving economy, most evident in the months leading up to the presidential election, which makes taking any data at face value problematic and naive at best. Yet even the openly-contradicting Chinese data manipulation has its Achilles heel in the form of monthly electricity consumption (and to a lesser extent, production) updates.

So what is the US equivalent of Chinese electricity consumption data? We believe it may be the little-tracked, and thus not nearly as "adjusted" weekly updates from the Energy Information Administration, whose data on barrels of US product supplied of both total petroleum products and just gasoline are as indicative of the true state of the energy-hungry beating heart of the US economy as any other data set, and is likely a far more accurate representation of what is really going on between the lines.

Sadly, if that is indeed the case, then the disconnect between propaganda myth and reality is about as big as can be, since on a blended 52-week average basis, the total product supplied of motor gasoline is back to 2003 levels (black line on chart below). However, where it gets really scary is looking at the total product supplied category, which includes gasoline and all other product such as heating oil, propane, and kerosene. As the chart below shows, the US economy, whose GDP we are led to believe has never been higher, now has the same total consumption of all petroleum products (red line) as it did... back in 1997!

Source: Weekly US Product of Finished Motor Gasoline (EIA), and Total Petroleum Product (EIA).

The same disturbing story is revealed when looking at various other EIA charts of sales, and thus demand, such as this one showing that 52 week average sales and deliveries of gasoline by prime supplier in the US has also tumbled to levels last seen in the late 90's.

Source: Total Gasoline All Sales/Deliveries by Prime Supplier (EIA)

But maybe it is just the usage of more efficient modes of transportation, and a higher MPG as more Americans shift to electric cars and some such. Sure, maybe. Of course, that would not explain why the total miles driven has hardly budged for the last decade, and is far off the all time high recorded when the economy was indeed humming on all fours, if moments before it imploded in 2007...

Source: Moving 12-Month Total Vehicle Miles Traveled (St. Louis Fed FRED)

... but the biggest question we have is just how did the biggest boost in energy and engine efficiency occurred at two key junctions: Just after the Lehman Failure, and just after the US downgrade and the first debt ceiling crisis, when the total sales of gasoline by US retailers literally went off the charts, and which data series is now languishing at levels not seen since the 1970s (unfortunately we can only estimate: not even the EIA's data set goes back that far).

Source: US Total Gasoline Retail Sales by Refiners (EIA)

Perhaps, just perhaps, Occam's razor applies in this situation as well, and the collapse in energy demand in the US has little to do with MPG efficiency, higher productivity, and throughput mysteriously achieved just when the entire economy was imploding in the months after the Lehman failure, and despite the re-emerging proliferation of cheap Fed debt funded SUVs and small trucks (discussed here), and everything to do with the US consumer being slowly but surely tapped out?

Of course, if that is the case, than the US economy is far, far weaker than even we could have surmised, although it certainly would explain the desperation with which the Fed is doing everything in its power to preserve the levitation of the S&P, i.e., the confidence that all is well despite all signs to the contrary. Because should the market finally be allowed to reflect the underlying economy - not the administration represented economy, but the real one - then everything that has transpired in the past five years will be child's play compared to what's coming.


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Sat, 04/06/2013 - 20:20 | 3417439 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Dying old nag pattern.  Classic.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 20:29 | 3417463 Croesus
Croesus's picture




Sat, 04/06/2013 - 20:51 | 3417525 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

I would like to see if there is a breakdown between freight/commercial miles and personal/commutation miles.  

To help distinguish the key driver

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:17 | 3417566 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

Regarding the muppet pimp household, we used to each commute 28 miles each way (28*4=112 mpd / 20mpg = 5.6gpd *5days x 4.3 weeks =  120.4 gpm) and we had another recrational activity which used +/- 120 gallons about once per month.  Add in running some errands at say another 20 gallons would be 260 gallons per month of gasoline usage pre-recession.  Post-recession we no longer have a recreational vehicle and moved close to our jobs and each drive about 5 miles each way (5*4 = 20 mpd / 20mpg = 1 gpd x 5days x 4.3 = 21.5 gpm)  Add 20 gallons for errands and we burn 41.5 gpm now.  41.5/260= .16. 

So in our particular case, which is extreme, we now burn 16% of the gasoline we used to burn.  But we also spend nearly every dollar we make now (including all savings achieved) hiring contractors fixing up our fixer upper home.  So in agreement with the above comment, we would need to see a better breakdown of domestic freight/commercial fuel usage to draw any conclusions - and they use diesel (trucks) and bunker (ships), so we will not see that in the gasoline figures.

Also anecdotal but we are not aware of anyone who burns more gasoline than pre-recession and many others who burn less.  Having your entire livelihood crater before your eyes coupled record high gas prices seems to affect the decision making process during rebuild time imo.  Certainly we are not alone in this line of thinking.  All anecdotal, obv.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:02 | 3417663 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Bring back the 426 hemi and our problems are solved.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:19 | 3417688 Richard Chesler
Richard Chesler's picture

Government statistics, as authentic as Obozo's birth certificate.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:05 | 3417781 markmotive
markmotive's picture

"If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation? and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."

—Thomas Jefferson

Documentary: Money, Banking and the Federal Reserve

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 01:51 | 3417922 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Have they established a Bitcoin to Ammo Sales Index on Forex?

If not, they should. They can call it BITBULLET

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 07:41 | 3418116 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Word is the DHS has 2 billion bitbullets on order. Not sure what they're planning on doing with them....and they ain't sayin.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:43 | 3418288 knightowl77
knightowl77's picture


ATF Seeks 'Massive' Database of Personal Info: 'Assets, Relatives, Associates and More"

It just keeps getting better and better

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 13:28 | 3418729 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Nothing depressing in these charts, all good news.

Inevitably oil consumpution was going to become unaffordable at these levels for the majority and it looks like people have begun adjusting - either willingly or unwillingly.

The sooner people move away from oil the better.  

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 18:31 | 3419757 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

There is only one graph for me, plot;
1. Money Velocity
2. Monetary Base
3. Consumer Credit
4. Public debt
5. Gold Spot (just for kicks)

All on a single graph, to see that this destruction of demand we are seeing is merely a consumer & public debt asphyxiation of the global producer-consumer overshoot which needed to be reigned back in.

Quantum Keynesianism isn't free either.

The graphs above give additional weighting to this notion.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 23:04 | 3420652 Hive Raid
Hive Raid's picture

Yeah it's cool, we're a service economy now. Show me deliveries of Starbucks, Tony Robbins courses, and latex gloves.


Things are looking up!


Sun, 04/07/2013 - 08:48 | 3418173 unrulian
unrulian's picture


Sun, 04/07/2013 - 02:09 | 3417939 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

"Best defense is good offense"

— Mel, the Cook

America Sitcom, Alice

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 02:23 | 3417948 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Hey Boris, What do you think of the pending Putin-Merkel Prickly Summit?
Sun, 04/07/2013 - 02:58 | 3417968 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Ribbentrop-Molotov Redux?

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:01 | 3418180 malikai
Sun, 04/07/2013 - 13:34 | 3418328 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

One Silver Eagle = 1 tank of gas.  It´s coming so stack that  Phyzz!

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:33 | 3420003 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

1 tank of gas = 2 litre of Stolichnaya. Time to stock up on libation.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 15:22 | 3419067 vamoose1
vamoose1's picture

  that   flat   faced   fuck   flaherty should   have   his   sorry   ass   poleaxed  into  the    rideau....  for   jesus   sakes   people   the   royal   bank   has    close   to   ten  trillion   dollars   of   derivatives    which  is  hundreds  of   times   its   equity   ....forget   taking   down a   bg  five   bank   this   derivative  exosure  could   take  the   fucking   country  in   20   minutes.  

   i  deeply   thank  the   toronto   star   for  this    signal   public   service    maybe   the   star   man   could   look  at   the   derivative   exposure  of  our   banks    and   write   about  that

    you   fat   faced   fuck   cdic   will  protect under  100  k   will  they    you  two fat   faced   cocksucker

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:36 | 3420015 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Run on bank will collapse even too big is to fail. Banker and politician is confidence man, but even incompetent con man is know only trade asset is trust. Do citizenry trust bank? No, did not think is so.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 14:33 | 3418898 philgramm
philgramm's picture

It seems that TPTB have given us the perpetual growth paradigm and they only speak in this particular paradigm and language. The rest of us accept this paradigm as valid and real. It appears to me that what we as citizens of the world need to do is to not speak in the language that does not serve our human interests.

Growing economy = perpetual growth = perpetually growing consumption. Why do we need this paradigm? Does it serve our best interest to consume more so we can improve the economy? Can we not be just as happy consuming less, taking more time off, enjoying time with family, friend's, hobbies, nature etc? Money is just another currency. Love, respect, family, friends, adaptability, skills are also currencies. The monetization of everything around us has blinded us to all the types of growth that can occur in our lives outside of the growth of money and material wealth. It is not in our interest to engage in the language that enslaved us. I do not believe that TPTB are evil. I believe they first enslaved themselves to this paradigm. Then, through, the levers of power they have enslaved the rest of us. It is our responsibility to free ourselves by speaking and engaging in a language that doesn't serve the almighty currency of money. In that process we can create individual freedom and subsequently freedom for those who want it. While I love zerogedge I feel that posts like this one make it seem as the "economy" is somehow supremely important in the lives of ordinary citizens of the world. It dies not. It is only one way to perceive the world. Many of the creates thinkers of our time and times past have tried to show us that there is so much more value in the intangible as opposed to the materially tangible. Perhaps the collaLSD of the economy is exactly what we need in order to recognize it was a false paradigm from the start. Sorry for the diatribe. I dont comment often but I feel this is a core issue for humanity.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:16 | 3418196 spinone
spinone's picture

Thats not a Jefferson Quote.  Don't believe (and repeat as fact) everything you read on the internet kiddo.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 00:34 | 3420820 RebelDevil
RebelDevil's picture

Even though it's not Jefferson's quote, it's still quite enlightening to the sheeple who are ready to take the red pill.
Does it even matter though? If Jefferson was alive today, I would bet he would say something very similar to that.
Positive propaganda is powerful too! Awesome.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 11:30 | 3418410 TuffsNotEnuff
TuffsNotEnuff's picture

Plainly authentic. Routine. No problemo!

Same as the simple, no issues Hawaiian birth certificate for President Obama.

And by the way, Obama would have been a natural born American citizen even if his mother, Ann, had gone to Kenya and given birth there. He would certainly have been eligible to hold the office of the presidency.

The paranoid-racist denial fantasy is what shocks. So many people, so damned stupidly crazy.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 16:57 | 3419373 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

You are wrong and your prejudicial ending statement brands you as the racist.  Wasn't it you girlfriend Hilliary who said "dissent is patriotic"?  Since when is believing in the rule of law racist?  FU

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 21:03 | 3420278 SeattleBruce
SeattleBruce's picture

OK - just 'cause you said so. Have you read up on the USC and SCOTUS decisions on the matter? Or is it racist for me to ask that...Yawn, you're like the boy that cries wolf, only your word is 'racist', isn't it?

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:39 | 3417736 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

well if not the 426, perhaps the 413:

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 02:54 | 3417967 BeaverFever
BeaverFever's picture

Amazon uses UPS. Never checked out their engines.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:02 | 3418181 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

I once knew this little old lady who would have agreed with you. She was from out west, some place called Pasadena.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:29 | 3418272 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

She said, "Put a Dodge in your garage... honey"

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:35 | 3418226 stormsailor
stormsailor's picture

a 413 is the gear ratio of the rear end.  dont auto much do you?

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:28 | 3418269 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Dana Posi FTW...

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 12:32 | 3418578 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Two Twenty, Two Twenty One...whatever it takes.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 15:13 | 3419043 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

What ring and pinion combination gives you that?

413 was the cubic inch displacement of a popular Mopar B engine.


The 413 RB had a 4.1875 inches (106.36 mm) bore and was used from 1959 to 1965 in cars. During that period, it powered almost all Chrysler New Yorker and Imperial models, and was also available on the lesser Chryslers, Dodge Polara, Dodge Monaco, and Plymouth Fury as an alternative to the B-block 383 and/or the 318. It was also fitted to some European cars such as the later Facel Vega Facel II

In the 1959 Chrysler 300E the 413 wedge was fitted with inline dual 4 barrel carburetors; it was factory rated as producing 380 bhp (283 kW) at 5000 rpm and 450 lb·ft (610 N·m) at 3600 rpm.[1] In 1960, a long-tube ram induction system was made standard on the Chrysler 300, it continued as standard on the 1961 300-G, it remained on the option sheets for Chrysler 300s through 1964. In 1962 a special version known as the "Max Wedge" was made available for drag racing and street use, this version produced 420 bhp (313 kW) at 5000 rpm. The 413 remained in use in medium and heavy duty trucks until 1979.

1959–1961 with 4-Barrel Carb Max Brake Horsepower: 355 @ 4600 rpm Max Torque: 525 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.0

1959 with 2 × 4-Barrel Carbs Max Brake Horsepower: 380 @ 5000 rpm Max Torque: 450 @ 3600 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.0

1960–1961 with 2 × 4-Barrel Carbs Max Brake Horsepower: 375 @ 5000 rpm Max Torque: 495 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.0

1962: 1965 with 4-Barrel Carb Max Brake Horsepower: 340 @ 4600 rpm Max Torque: 470 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.1

1962 with 2 × 4-Barrel Carbs Max Brake Horsepower: 380 @ 5000 rpm Max Torque: 495 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.1

1963: 1965 with 4-Barrel Carb Max Brake Horsepower: 360 @ 4600 rpm Max Torque: 470 @ 2800 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 10.1

1963: 1964 with 2 × 4-Barrel Carbs Max Brake Horsepower: 390 @ 4800 rpm Max Torque: 485 @ 3600 rpm Stroke: 3.75 Bore: 4.1875 Compression: 9.6"


Sun, 04/07/2013 - 19:26 | 3419982 Overfed
Overfed's picture

But, it was a wedge, not a hemi.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:00 | 3417774 andyupnorth
andyupnorth's picture

I would like to see the breakdown between military and civilian.

My belief is that the US military consumes a huge amount of natural ressources.  Could it be that the military is actually cutting down on it consumption?

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 02:04 | 3417935 Quantum Nucleonics
Quantum Nucleonics's picture

In Team Obama's renewable energy nirvana, the US military no spends $30/gallon on biofuels.  Relative to total consumption, the US military's consumption is pretty small and probably most weighted towards diesel and jet fuel.  Also, remember, US buys a lot from local sources for overseas ops, e.g. they aren't shipping gas to Afghanistan from Texas.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 13:38 | 3418752 AGuy
AGuy's picture

its likely a significant fraction of the decline is because americans are driving smaller cars and driving less because of the rising cost of gasoline. I see significantly fewer SUVs on the road today, compared to 2007. Back in 2007 more than half of the cars on the road were SUV. Today less than 15% are SUVs.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:20 | 3417694 JR
JR's picture

In California, when returns from the fuel tax declined because drivers were trying to avoid the higher costs, the state responded with a 10% increase in the excise tax on gasoline.

Conclusion? We work for the government. And they need our money for their priorities.

Society responds to abuse when it reaches a certain point. And that point is fast approaching.

From Bill Bonner today (“The Real Reason There Will Be No 'Recovery' in America”):

Quote --

And now we have proof... that the Internet did not add to the wealth of the US... or apparently anywhere else. From The New Yorker:

For a time, the Labor Department's productivity figures appeared to support the idea of an Internet-based productivity miracle. Between 1996 and 2000, output per hour in the non-farm business sector – the standard measure of labor productivity – grew at an annual rate of 2.75%, well above the 1.5% rate that was seen between 1973 and 1996.

The difference between 1.5% annual productivity growth and 2.75% growth is enormous. With 2.75% growth (assuming higher productivity leads to higher wages), it takes about 26 years for living standards to double. With 1.5% growth, it takes a lot longer – 48 years – for living standards to double...

Since the start of 2005, productivity growth has fallen all the way back to the levels seen before the Web was commercialized, and before smart phones were invented.

During the eight years from 2005-2012, output per hour expanded at an annual rate of just 1.5% – the same as it grew between 1973 and 1996. More recently, productivity growth has been lower still. In 2011, output per hour rose by a mere 0.6%, according to the latest update from the Labor Department, and last year there was more of the same: an increase of just 0.7%. In the last quarter of 2012, output per hour actually fell, at an annual rate of 1.9%. Americans got less productive – or so the figures said...

If the sluggish rates of productivity growth we've seen over the past two years were to persist into the indefinite future, it would take more than a hundred years for output-per-person and living standards to double.

How about that? The Internet. A big dud. A time waster, like television, not a wealth booster, like the internal combustion engine.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:41 | 3417738 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

This is amazing!  You people complain about everything!

A gas tax works quite well - it is apportioned - so if you don't like it, don't drive.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:50 | 3417756 angel_of_joy
angel_of_joy's picture


Sun, 04/07/2013 - 05:41 | 3418043 anonum
anonum's picture

Good For You, Sir? :-)

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 05:47 | 3418050 Bearwagon
Bearwagon's picture

More like: "Go Fuck YourSelf"

Just for the record

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 07:43 | 3418121 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Without objection.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 14:14 | 3418851 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

we'll take judicial notice that he is an ignorant asshole

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:17 | 3417796 JR
JR's picture

Paul! It’s good to know you're at work, saving the economy, late on Saturday night. I thought you and Ben would still be out celebrating the recovery.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:31 | 3417812 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

Benny just finished with him, he came here to gloat...

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:50 | 3417891 BeerBrewer09
BeerBrewer09's picture

you're a faggot.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 02:44 | 3417962 Jafo
Jafo's picture

But governments can spend LESS so they don't have to impose higher taxes.  They do have a choice as well.


As the old saying goes: "If the government ran it even crime wouldn't pay"

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 08:03 | 3418138 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Spend less......can we actually do that?

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 04:14 | 3417996 Andre
Andre's picture

Worst case of Rich Man's Syndrome I've seen in years.

When I lost my R&D job I had to work what I could get, which meant construction.

  • 4 months and 25 miles one way to pull cable at one site.
  • 2 weeks pulling cable 20 miles one way
  • 3 weeks as general labor 30 miles in a different direction building a school.
  • Industrial jobs 15 to 70 miles away - one way.

OH - and no public transportation that would put you closer than 5 miles to any site. You try a five mile walk with 15 pounds of tools in 95 degree weather. I've done it at one site.

Temp workers do not have the income or long-term job stability to allow them to move close to a job site for a prolonged period. In fact, the more you move the worse it is, because that affects things like your credit score, making things like rent and deposits go up.

What I find appalling in your "don't drive" comment is your absolute ignorance of the more common realities, as though the whole world was 1 mile from the Penn Central. It's even worse now since cities have been cutting back service with the public transport system as the economic crisis has deepened. It is on the level of "Let them eat cake". Gasoline taxes are inherently regressive, not only because many people cannot afford to live close to a job but they cannot afford well-maintained high-mpg transportation in most cases, because you need a car that works that you can afford to make the payments on, while still eating and paying bills.

Based on my personal experience and the experience of many others, I find your comments troubling. They do not reflect the level of knowledge and life experience that one would expect of (and should demand from) a senior adviser and public commentator.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 08:52 | 3418174 brettd
brettd's picture


We'll stop driving and take Amtrack to our meeting with you and be late!

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 08:59 | 3418177 Obadiah
Obadiah's picture

Kruggie your such a douchebag

you think your so great you must lord over others

you are a sad sad man






Sun, 04/07/2013 - 13:03 | 3418663 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

Sad Sack, please make note it is "You are" (for you're) and not "your"  above ...

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:34 | 3418277 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

This is amazing!  You people complain about everything!

Most people don't know that the gas tax also regulates the Harpex. We have achieved equilibrium, right Paul?

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 11:52 | 3418453 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

So what is the US equivalent of Chinese electricity consumption data? US electricity consuption. EPUSTOT and take the 52 weeks average.

This is EPUSTOT Index on bloomberg take the 52 weeks average to get a trend. The trend is reversing upwards. We were actually in contraction in 2012 from a peak of consumption in 2011 which also corresponds to peak inflation in the US is the first quarter of 2011. So ECRI was correct we had a contraction in 2012 but with manipulation of data and money printing it was totally masked from the public.

The US economy is expanding according to the electricity consumption and that since december 2012, we have inverted the downward trend.


Sun, 04/07/2013 - 13:06 | 3418656 seataka
seataka's picture

This year's uptick over last year MIGHT be explained by BITCOIN MINING...
I set up 900+ core watercooled system, with 1500Watt Power supply,
complete with Yamaha radiator and antifreeze..
Yes it crunches anything fast, but it also qualifies as possibly the most
expensive space heater in the world...and yes I do crunch bitcoins in
winter to heat the place but never in summer.. adds too much to cooling load of a/c.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 14:19 | 3418868 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

And if some of us have no choice but to drive, then what- dumbfucking heeb.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 14:51 | 3418963 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

That is part of the Socialist's SODOMITE in Chief's plan...


What a SOCIALIST. Well at least I can look at the results...THE ECONOMY IS DYING. That is what the chart says.


So you SODOMITES...Yes...People whom support SODOMY as in the practices of YOUR President...ARE SODOMITES...Yeah you SODOMITES are not going to be in Power much longer.


That is the Silver Lining on thie charts. So go and play Skin Flute with your President...SODOMITE.


Look up that other Sodomite Larry Sinclair. And maybe you can get your lifetime membership at Men's Country so that you can be a SODOMITE with both Barack Obama and Rahm Emmanuel, both who hold Lifetime Memberships to that Gay Bathhouse in Chicago.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:50 | 3417755 Dr Paul Krugman
Dr Paul Krugman's picture

This is amazing!  You people complain about everything!

A gas tax works quite well - it is apportioned - so if you don't like it, don't drive.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:29 | 3417810 ultimate warrior
ultimate warrior's picture

Shut up you stupid fuck!

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:34 | 3417813 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

Tell us how you really feel...

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:46 | 3417830 ultimate warrior
ultimate warrior's picture

Its Krugman. Its how everyone feels.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 07:52 | 3418127 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Doc (not a real MD) Paul comes down from fairy pixiedust land...and he can't understand why he gets his ass kicked. 

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 08:34 | 3418166 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

Won't a mileage tax stick it to all the long distance ex burb commuters and industries of housing and automobiles that you are trying to save? The ones who bought cheap housing a decade ago, who then bought an efficient Prius to save money so they wouldn't have to dump the house?  Can you call this irony? Or would this more accurately be called goverment in action... in pixie dust land

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:08 | 3417862 H E D G E H O G
H E D G E H O G's picture

The ONLY thing I ever complain about is not having enough Bernanke to wipe my Krugman after I take a Geithner.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 03:54 | 3417990 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

I just made Krugman a hot lunch and left him a napkin.



Sun, 04/07/2013 - 11:18 | 3418384 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

please... leave mr. krugman alone? the more negaive he is about ZH on his blog, the moar poitive viewers jump into 'The Fight Club' arena!?  just simple physics, where electronsDr.Who] gravitate to protonsZH] 

it's all good...

on a side note: shouldn't ZH be manatory reading in all U.S. journalistic classes?

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 13:06 | 3418667 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Way too funny and way too correct.        hujel

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:37 | 3418282 resurger
resurger's picture


Sun, 04/07/2013 - 13:03 | 3418660 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Way too funny and way too correct!


Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:16 | 3417874 sbenard
sbenard's picture

Crazy Krugman!

Using that kind of delusional logic, we could also say, "if you don't like inflation, don't EAT!"

And you thought you were SMART! Every word you write just proves you're just an educated imbecile!

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:43 | 3417884 yogibear
yogibear's picture

"A gas tax works quite well"

How's it working out in Europe? Tax the people to death and socialize. My, a good argument for communism.

Most people in the US have never lived in a government system like the old Soviet Union, so they have no idea of what it was like.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 03:39 | 3417983 cherry picker
cherry picker's picture

I am tired of all the "experts" and government/politico types who justify all taxes as it is owed.  You all forget that it was a tax burden which sparked the creation of the USA.  Taxation without representation, then and now.

I resent my taxes going to pay for spooks, torture, foreign invasions, overpaying .gov employees and their fat pensions, Obama's expensive vacations, so many other things I have no say over whatsover.

It is time for change and maybe that change will inspire hope. 

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 04:34 | 3418004 SunRise
SunRise's picture

You presume that taxes are things to be desired.  Taxes are FORCED CONFISCATION a very different animal than free exchange of good for good.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 04:34 | 3418005 SunRise
SunRise's picture

:( . . . sundown

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 06:32 | 3418070 SpeakerFTD
SpeakerFTD's picture

I still haven't decided if you're a troll.  Either way, it's worth a reply.

First, in principle, I agree with you that as far as taxes go , gas taxes are okay.    We would be far apart on the overall level of taxation that is desirable, but all else being equal, gas taxes can be a useful tool, especially if they are used to capture externalities related to energy costs.   Want to use the military to secure foreign energy assets?   Pass the cost of the invasion along to consumers directly.  They will see the exact cost of their pockebook from the action and might think twice.  

So while, theoretically, there might be utility in a gas tax, it seems to me that your thinking suffers from one major contradiction.   One on hand, you are a champion of cheaper money.    You demand more action by the Fed to lower the cost of capital, effectively giving a subsidy to the users of the capital (business).  On the other hand, you support a gas tax, a tax that particularly weighs on labor, and as another poster mentioned, in a regressive manner.  At the margin, labor is either forced to reject a job due to the increased cost or demand a higher wage to compensate for the increased cost.  

In effect, you, The Conscience of a Liberal, are championing policies that, in aggregate, reward business owners for favoring capital over labor.   Such policies would seemingly directly feed into both higher structural unemployment and the widening income gap between rich and poor.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 08:55 | 3418176 brettd
brettd's picture

In the end, it aint' about taxes.  Spending's the issue.


Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:37 | 3418281 resurger
resurger's picture

U J E S T !

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 14:55 | 3418988 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

That is part of the Socialist's SODOMITE in Chief's plan...


What a SOCIALIST. Well at least I can look at the results...THE ECONOMY IS DYING. That is what the chart says.


So you SODOMITES...Yes...People whom support SODOMY as in the practices of YOUR President...ARE SODOMITES...Yeah you SODOMITES are not going to be in Power much longer.


That is the Silver Lining on thie charts. So go and play Skin Flute with your President...SODOMITE.


Look up that other Sodomite Larry Sinclair. And maybe you can get your lifetime membership at Men's Country so that you can be a SODOMITE with both Barack Obama and Rahm Emmanuel, both who hold Lifetime Memberships to that Gay Bathhouse in Chicago.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:47 | 3417887 DaveA
DaveA's picture

OK, let's scrap the Internet because it no longer increases our productivity year after year.  Cars, trains, and jet aircraft haven't gotten any faster since 2000 either, so let's junk them too.

Any great invention is good for about ten years of productivity growth as people acquire it and learn to apply it.  Once a technology matures, its benefits don't go away, they just get baked into the baseline. To achieve further productivity growth, you must invent something else.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 07:21 | 3418102 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture




Patience, Grasshopper ... it is all coming to pass.


Driving is down because fuel is harder to come by. Fuel is harder to come by because it was too cheap for decades, most has been wasted. Because fuel is harder to come by it is more expensive relative to other goods which in turn reduces discretionary spending. Because discretionary spending is reduced, businesses that depend on it fail. This in turn reduces the amount of available credit ... which in turn reduces driving further in a vicious cycle.


Spending declines along with driving => the ability to gain new fuel diminishes => new fuel is harder to come by and is unaffordably expensive.


New fuel in America costs almost $100 per barrel, Brent last week was $104.12. When cost = sales price there will be shortages: conservation by way of credit unraveling. This is the process that will take hold before the end of 2014.


Oops: Baker-Hughes rig count is down over 200 in the past year ... you can kiss that car goodbye now!



Sun, 04/07/2013 - 05:18 | 3418033 ebear
ebear's picture

"And now we have proof... that the Internet did not add to the wealth of the US... or apparently anywhere else."

cum hoc ergo propter hoc


Defining the internet in terms of productivity alone ignores the hidden ground of cultural transformation, which is arguably its most significant effect.  

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 11:11 | 3418365 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Good God enough about the Internet and productivity! Who gives a fuck? You think it matters? Productivity gains are looted by the .gov thru ever higher taxes and inflation.

What's left is looted for upper management pay and benefits. Labor sees none of it. Kinda why Ma and Pa BOTH have to work today; real wages haven't increased since the early 70s.

The struggle of capital vs labor is over and labor got routed. Took the offshoring of our manufacturing as well as mass peasant immigration and the 'liberation' of women to join the workforce, but the victory is complete.

Enjoy your dystopia but STFU about 'productivity gains' that are literally irrelevant to 90 percent of working Amerkans.

Hey! We're 0.8 percent more productive! Here's only an 18 percent increase in your health care cost instead of the planned 20 and bend over for your celebratory fisting!

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 08:21 | 3418157 Umh
Umh's picture

Whatever economy (lots of bad shit there already) we had minus the cost of the war on terror is where we are today.

The reason world war two seemed to improve things was that we were almost the only country with factories still standing.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 12:03 | 3418487 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

From an article linked on the internet - FAIL

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:29 | 3417719 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Your anecdote is legitimate but not definitive.

The more definitive anecdote would be this:

"Before the devastation began, I had a job to drive to.  Now I don't.  It took 15000 miles/yr off my total."

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:06 | 3417861 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture




Those "not in labor force" have no need to cummute.

And since there will soon be a WalMart on every corner; retirees will be able to walk to work,... if they can remember where they're going,... and what their name is,... is that a jelly doughnut?...



Sun, 04/07/2013 - 05:25 | 3418034 ebear
ebear's picture

is,... is that a jelly doughnut?...

Why yes, it is!

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:21 | 3418265 Colonel Walter ...
Colonel Walter E Kurtz's picture

At least it is comforting to know that other cultures/countries are just as screwed as the U.S.

If we can just have some more songs about doughnuts, I know GDP productvity gains will be just around the corner!


Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:43 | 3417826 grid-b-gone
grid-b-gone's picture

I used to commute 1 hr. for a high-paying job. Now commute 5 min. for a lower-paying job and find I really did not sacrifice much after the fuel and time savings.

Amazon Prime saves a few shopping excursions per week. Less gas and more free time. 

I'll continue to offset inflation and tax increases with more cutbacks. I feel I have a better quality of life now than when I was more prosperous (on paper) a few years ago.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 06:58 | 3418087 Oleander
Oleander's picture

True. I no longer drive 32 miles to get on a bus to finish my commute. I too use Amazon prime weekly. I now am much happier with a garden and selling at thr Farmers market which runs yr round. I still do a lot of running around with my homeschooled kid. By the way Ron Paul just revealed a homeschool curriculum.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:20 | 3417875 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I bought a scooter.  Nothin' fancy.  Use it to make trips around the local area for miscellaneous.  Put a trunk on it for more capacity and it carries much more than I even imagined.  The little GY6 engines are pretty simple and I've done everything myself so far.  There is a ton of YouTube info on any scooter or motorcycle.  Getting 50 to 70 miles a gallon is nice, and so is the fun of riding on two wheels.  Insurance is less than $100 a year and registration of a 150cc scooter meant no sales tax in my state. I walked out of DMV with a license plate and a $3 total bill.  Reckon pretty soon the scenes of U. S. streets will look like Korea or Malaysia!

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 07:42 | 3418117 AKrandy
AKrandy's picture

There's a joke about fat chicks in there someplace.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:21 | 3418200 DangerClams
DangerClams's picture

Most scooters come with a free skirt these days, too, so it's like you can't NOT buy one.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 05:05 | 3418025 schatzi
schatzi's picture

I like your numbers breakdown.


But the question that remains unanswered in this article and contradicts the most fundamental economic analysis, is that of having a "ceteris paribus" environment.

Why do you consume less? Because you earn less or because fuel is double as expensive as it was 10 years ago or the end of 08, or 30% more expensive than 2 years ago? The biggest factor determining demand is price. Sure you're dealing with a relatively price insensitive demand - especially in regards to commercial usage, but what we have seen in the last years is companies making record profits by improving the bottom line numbers. Reducing costs, laying off workers etc. Improving fuel efficiency is certainly one way - especially since the US is a notorious waster of energy with a much larger cost cutting potential than would be possible in a place like Germany that is traditionally a stingy energy user and even though they have a much larger manufacturing base, consume about half the energy per capita than the US.

I have said it before on here and I'm saying it again: you cannot draw any conclusions on the larger economic picture from fuel usage IF prices have not been stable and comparable over that time frame.

No ceteris paribus, no conclusive evidence.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:09 | 3418109 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

ceteris paribus est plenum fraudis

By your apparent logic- notional GDP targeting would be a valid and productive economic activity...


There are even more ways to manipulate the monetary components of GDP calculation then there are significant underlying factors for variance in energy consumption.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:55 | 3418244 schatzi
schatzi's picture

There are even more ways to manipulate the monetary components of GDP calculation then there are significant underlying factors for variance in energy consumption.


I agree, and I'm not disagreeing with the claim of economic slow down, but sometimes a graph really is not worth more than a thousand words. There are simply too many variables to draw any sensible conclusions.

I've read others comment on the composition of fuel usage impacting gasoline retail sales. Something I hadn't thought of and something I can confirm has happened in continental Europe. In the last 20 years, diesel has transformed from a purely commercially used fuel to one gaining a 50% market share of private vehicles.

The other variable is company behaviour and processes. In times of extreme growth and profits, wastage grows disproportionately. A recession forces a rethink, company petrol cards disappear, routes are optimised, vehicle fleets are optimised etc. Something we have conclusive evidence of, is the improvement of bottom line numbers and something most of us in the working world have personally felt. Companies have become leaner and meaner. This behaviour of course has in all likelyhood also been influenced by the increase in fuel costs.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:32 | 3418275 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The uglier line on the first chart already includes diesel.  I agree that a graph can't properly replace a thousand words, the problem I see is that the underlying reality is so multivariable that any precise quantification is going to run into the millions of words.  

There is a quantifiable correlation between energy consumption and GDP, the mathematical correlation varies over time and from country to country, but the "recent" divergence in the US is more indicative of a collapse of both production and consumption- unless someone can step up with some huge quantifiable productivity gains beyond the most Enron-esque of corporate bean-counters' claims.

Throw in the fact that belt-tightening is inherently GDP negative ("investment" is another story, but even "investments" often aren't positive outside of the perverse confines of the accountant's play-pen), I just don't see it, but then I have to make payroll, so I don't have two months free time to crank out a thousand page analysis that doesn't help me meet that payroll.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:25 | 3418207 Sofa King
Sofa King's picture

It's simpler than that. More than half of the refineries in the US have been closed in the past few years but the monthly inventory numbers come in around the same. No math needed there. Statistics professor back in University once said that when it comes to the general population the perception of reality is far more important than reality itself.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:44 | 3418292 tom74
tom74's picture

I do that exact commute in the UK and it costs about £8 (c.$12) a day! 

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:16 | 3417584 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Questions like that give analysts like me a woody, Raymond.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 10:51 | 3418308 unununium
unununium's picture

It's not really even necessary to see the breakdown.  Other than a magical sudden levitation in the fuel efficiency of all vehicles, which as Tyler explains is impossible...

The only thing that could explain 50% drop in fuel consumption while miles driven remained constant is a dramatic shift in the CONSUMPTION MIX.  The efficient 20MPG passenger cars are still driving, but the inefficient 6MPG tractor-trailers that are the backbone of the physical economy have CUT BACK BIG TIME.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:38 | 3417616 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Well, they wanted a reduction in greenhouse gasses.... they got it.  Shut down the economy and you don't make nearly as many of them.  I expect it'll be getting really cold out any time now.  I'm still breathing, of course.  Emitting CO2 and occasionally farting little wisps of methane (me and the cows).... they'll get around to that soon enough as well, I'm sure.


Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:57 | 3417652 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

I have an explanation.  The numbers are for gasoline refiners.  I guess more and more Americans are fueling up with methanol and diesel.


Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:03 | 3417664 ghandi
ghandi's picture

I reckon the crash will happen as it did with G W Bush:


right at the end of Omama's term:


Look to the Fall 2016

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:45 | 3417832 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture


I recall the employment numbers improved in Nov of 1991. They were published just after the election. Too late for GHW Bush. If it works that way this time we will be in a sweet place in just 3.8 years. har har har

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:50 | 3417838 mfoste1
mfoste1's picture

sooner than that my friend

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:35 | 3417729 Pairadimes
Pairadimes's picture

Nonsense. GM has obviously figured out how to keep Volts from bursting into flames, and the fleet of 17 privately owned vehicles is starting to have the desired result on consumption. Plus, Fisker Karmas.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 07:35 | 3418114 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture



The first chart already includes Diesel, the second and fourth don't but the data curves are basically the same

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:10 | 3417675 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

I don't think they really wanted to reduce greenhouse gasses as much as you might think. The best way to do that is to end foodstamps and welfare (less drivers and eaters). Do you have any idea how many people would starve to death? I think TPTB just got so greedy that they just wanted more and more out of the world economy that they eventually smothered it in regulations, taxes, ect. Now there is a lack of participants and it is going down the tubes.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:11 | 3418188 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

All I know is if they don't get that Twinky factory humming soon there will be riots. Riots I tell you.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:20 | 3417876 sbenard
sbenard's picture

Precisely! If we also all go back to living in caves and grunting, we can eliminate all gas consumption and supposedly be eternally prosperous. We'll be animals and descend into anarchy, but at least we can wallow in the delusion that we're prosperous!

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 02:40 | 3417961 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

The problem with that scenario is the same problem with -- we got along without oil 120 years ago and we did just fine so we will again.

The problem is the definition of "we".  We are 7 billion people now, and food transport on oil powered trucks keeps them alive.

So, no.  We won't descend into anarchy.  Rather, we will die.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:24 | 3418204 DangerClams
DangerClams's picture

Wrong.  First its anarchy, then it's death.  Don't steal anarchy's thunder.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 11:18 | 3418387 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

"...And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return! "

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 03:03 | 3417970 archon
archon's picture

I wish Ayn Rand were here to comment on this... as the motor of the world grinds to a halt.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:52 | 3417892 Abi Normal
Abi Normal's picture

Hoax and Chains, baby!

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 20:48 | 3417512 MilleniumJane
MilleniumJane's picture

Oh, the old gray mare, she ain't what she used to be,
Ain't what she used to be, ain't what she used to be.
The old gray mare, she ain't what she used to be,
Many long years ago.
Sat, 04/06/2013 - 20:55 | 3417534 Paul Bogdanich
Paul Bogdanich's picture

Please.  In this forum one endlessly reads about government sponsored auto loans and how they are no good and how the auto-makers are channel stuffing and all sorts of other clap trap.  All of which is true by the way but what is the logical effect of letting people with no money buy millions of new cars?  It gets the beaters they are currently driving off the road.  Fuel economy on the replaced cars about doubles and demand for gasoline goes down on virtually the same number of miles driven.  Let's all panic.    

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:59 | 3417615 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

Oh please.  Gag me with a fence post - with a turtle sitting on top.

Read this:

Subprime Auto Nation

(Note:  I just bookmarked that because I am going to go stuff it in my Congressman's face in a few weeks.  Chris Van Hollen - aka Nancy Pelosi's bitch.)

What is the NPV of all of those calcium silicated cars under cash for clunkers?  What is the interest expense on that?  How much more are you (especially you) and I paying at the pump because the dollar has been watered down and the oil exporters still want the same value in exchange for a barrel of oil.  Do you think that there is a lot of capital sloshing around for oil drilling or new transmission lines? Stated differently, what is the opportunity cost of spending $600 billion to replace used automobiles with an inherent value of $1.2 trillion in order to save $300 billion on gasoline expense.  

I asked somebody from the NETL lab in Pittsburgh a few years ago what the energy cost to manufacture an automobile was in terms of its average lifetime energy consumption.  The answer was something like 15%.  IOW, if a car burned 10,000 gallons of gasoline over its lifetime, then 1,500 gallons would have been used making the steel, upholestry, glass,etc.

Go Google - "Bastiat broken window"

Did you help FDR burn crops?

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:09 | 3417671 noless
noless's picture

The weirdest thing happened a few months back, all of my shared houses vehicles, 4 mid nineties commuters to various forms of corporate to self employment, developed the exact same malady (surging idle), which will eventually cause multiple sensors to fail under strain and brick your engine. So either someone hates all of us enough to drop a very specific substance into our respective gas tanks, or there was a regional bout of "bad gas".

View through the lens of abject paranoia.

I am not shiting you.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:04 | 3417858 grid-b-gone
grid-b-gone's picture

I had that same symptom a few weeks ago. I thought the computer module might be going bad (12 yr.-old vehicle), but now that you mention it, the symptom went away after I filled up recently.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 02:12 | 3417940 Quantum Nucleonics
Quantum Nucleonics's picture

In any given area, the gasoline you purchase from every gas station, regardless of which company operates it, likely comes from the same refinery.  So when "Chevron" says their gas is better than "Texaco"'s, it's all just BS.  It is exactly the same stuff.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 14:56 | 3418992 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Chevron owns Texaco.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 02:15 | 3417942 Quantum Nucleonics
Quantum Nucleonics's picture

Or... perhaps too much ethanol.  Ethanol producers and refineries are desperate to jack up the % of ethanol blended into gasoline.  The are starting to need to buy credits which went Cape Canaveral a few weeks ago.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:52 | 3417764 LeisureSmith
LeisureSmith's picture

What a fucking waste. Destroying tons of perfectly drivable cars...still pisses me off!

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:31 | 3418215 bunnyswanson
bunnyswanson's picture

silencedknight:  "This video makes me tear up."

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 09:24 | 3418208 DangerClams
DangerClams's picture

And kill 6 million pigs?

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:48 | 3417629 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

average life of cars is 11 years..was a post on ZH about it a few days ago here:

there are around 240m vehicles in operation in the US. further corroboration here

so we are talking about the 11 year old cars not being used as much

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:51 | 3417760 noless
noless's picture

All of the vehicles in our stable are 15+. Computers in a car are a liability. That's why cash for clunkers, a carburetor doesnt give a fuck about an emp.

Fuel efficiency by mpg has not meaningfully advanced since the seventies. Only complexity and tracking.

I would call myself a tree hugger, the natural world is gods greatest gift, and teacher to all men. But the level of disingenuous bullshit around "hybrid vehicles" and "carbon footprints" truly pushes me over the edge.

Seriously, look at ads from the hands around the world era.

This is not a direct response, merely an emotional one.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 07:43 | 3418123 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The environmental movement was co-opted by a bunch of rich Koch-brother-doppelgangers as soon as it gained any political traction and there were dollars to be had by sucking at the tit of Uncle Sam.

AstroTurf is as old as the MIC.  And ANY politician crying wolf is simultaneously covering the tramp-stamp on their ass placed there by their wealthy kleptocrat masters. 

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:50 | 3417890 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Hmm, like everything else about me, my 1990 Dodge Dakota Truck must be above average!

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 07:49 | 3418126 de3de8
de3de8's picture

And my 99 7.3 hopped up. Love to step on it while passing bikers hogging the road like they own it. Black smoke encasement.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:56 | 3417649 Global.Strawdog
Global.Strawdog's picture

You didn't mention the population growth as a factor.  The U.S. population has grown by 40 million since 2000.  That kinda offsets some of the savings from better mpg's.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 00:59 | 3417898 dunce
dunce's picture

I scrolled through the comments to see if  any one else might make that point, but i do not think it offsetts the increased mpg  effects. i think it makes the point of the article more. More people driving even fewer miles per person. But however you look at it, it should be cosidered and i am no data analyst.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 03:08 | 3417972 BeaverFever
BeaverFever's picture

Mexicans don't drive long distances on lawn mowers...

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:27 | 3417710 Coast Watcher
Coast Watcher's picture

All of which is true by the way but what is the logical effect of letting people with no money buy millions of new cars?  It gets the beaters they are currently driving off the road.  Fuel economy on the replaced cars about doubles and demand for gasoline goes down on virtually the same number of miles driven.  Let's all panic.


And it all miraculously happened just as the economy tanked? A true miracle of coincidence.

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 07:50 | 3418125 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture


"Fuel economy on the replaced cars about doubles and demand for gasoline goes down on virtually the same number of miles driven."

Provide some at least minimally respectable source to back this up, or shove the BS back up your ass where it belongs...

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:09 | 3417567 Pooper Popper
Pooper Popper's picture

and now...THE OLD GREY MAN DANCERS!!!!!!!!

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:08 | 3417528 rogeliokh
rogeliokh's picture


Below spot

$1,576.00 Free Shipping, (If I remember correctly Gold spot closed on Friday at $1,580.00) Seller seems legit accepting Credit Cards..

No It's not me and No, I'm not affiliate, Just in shock to discover this.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You think this guy is real???? LOOK:

"I'm Asking $1,576 A Ounce But I'm Negotiable In The Price, Make Me On Offer. Or If You Want To Buy By The Bulk I'm Willing To Sell Each Gold Coin For $1,000 U.S.D But You Have To Purchase Minimum 10 Gold Coins Per Transaction. " What???

He's selling $1000 per coin for 10 coins minimum?
I think it's scam after all ... Cause it's not possible.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:10 | 3417571 blindman
blindman's picture


Sat, 04/06/2013 - 21:38 | 3417618 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Or maybe he's just afraid it's going down and wants to cash out quickly... or he wants to speculate with bitcoin, and expects to recover the loss quickly.

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 22:41 | 3417740 Pairadimes
Pairadimes's picture



Sat, 04/06/2013 - 23:12 | 3417789 GoldForCash
GoldForCash's picture


Sat, 04/06/2013 - 20:58 | 3417549 Bad Attitude
Bad Attitude's picture

Forward (over the cliff)!

Folks better be stocking up on shelf stable food while it is still available and relatively cheap (think about what has happened to ammo the past few months)!

I blame this collapse on Dear Leader and his commie sycophants.


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