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Bitcoin Parabola Not Enough? Here Comes Bitcoin Opportunity Fund... This Time With Leverage!

Tyler Durden's picture





 

With Bitcoins changing digital hands for over $260 this morning, having doubled in a week (and exponentially risen in weeks), many have asked how to 'trade' or 'short' this virtual currency. Well, perhaps the answer is here. As TechCrunch notes, Coinsetter - a NY-based startup looking to launch a trading platform for Bitcoin has raised $500,000 in seed capital. The platform will allow leverage (via margin) and the ability to short the market. We can only imagine the hour-by-hour margin changes. Furthermore, Coinsetter intends to offer accredited investors (because wealth equals smarts, right) the ability to earn interest on Bitcoins. To put his money where his mouth is, Lukasiewicz, a former JPM investment banker, has said that he will "put up at least $50,000 of his own money towards the platform's initial margin reserves." Forget NFLX; Ignore FNM; day-trading Bitcoin with leverage is the new normal. What's the opposite of catching a falling knife?

 

Short this...on margin...

 

And from Coinsetter's blog...

 

Via TechCrunch,

Today, Coinsetter, a New York City-based startup looking to launch a new Forex trading platform for Bitcoin, announced today that it has raised $500,000 in seed capital. The round was led by Tribeca Venture Partners and SecondMarket founder and CEO Barry Silbert (through his Bitcoin Opportunity Fund), with participation from angel investors like Jimmy Furland, a London-based technology entrepreneur, Microsoft Head of Corporate Strategy, Charles Songhurst, and Facebook Product Lead, Ben Davenport.

 

...

 

Coinsetter, on the other hand, is one of many that see opportunity in applying familiar market practices to the wild, wacky and virtual world of Bitcoin. With its new funding in tow, the New York City-based startup plans to launch a Forex trading platform for Bitcoin, specifically one that allows people to make leveraged trades on margin and short the market. While these practices are available in all mature markets, says co-founder Jaron Lukasiewicz, “they’re virtually absent in the Bitcoin space.”

 

Coinsetter wants to make Bitcoin more accessible to both mainstream and institutional users by focusing on security, transparency and by offering a simple user experience. On top of that, the startup plans to launch an ancillary arm that will offer a “scalable solution for accredited investors and institutions to earn interest on their bitcoins,” Lukasiewicz says.

 

...

 

To put his money where his mouth is, Lukasiewicz, a former investment banker, has said that he will “put up at least $50,000 of his own money towards the platform’s initial margin reserves,” as reported by The Bitcoin Trader. The article goes on to point out that, while promising, Coinsetter isn’t the only service looking to offer margin trading.

 

There’s also the steadily-growing, Hong Kong-based Bitfinex as well as ICBIT.se, both of which have been around for some time.

 

...

 


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Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:12 | Link to Comment kushmere
kushmere's picture

Oh, just what we need to get a higher bubble.

http://bestbitcoinsites.wordpress.com

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:15 | Link to Comment Badabing
Badabing's picture

THIS IS IT!!!!!

a BTC ETF to control the price now they TPTB can short the shit out of it.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:17 | Link to Comment Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

At 2.6B USD, a minute fraction of the "rich" world is moving into bitcoin.  A very minute fraction; 10B is less than a week of Ben's weekly printer show.  Remember that, you're still talking about something very small in the grand scheme of things.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:20 | Link to Comment MagicHandPuppet
MagicHandPuppet's picture

I LOVE IT!  What could go wrong?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:31 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

Bitcoin, it's the new silver.

Why else would JPM be creating a paper market for it?

BTW: they could just extend the horizontal scale on the graph to make it less scary. Selling fear is not cool.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:32 | Link to Comment HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

Bitcoin, it's the new Beanie Babies. My kids have some of those if you want to trade them for your bitcoins.

Yes, I wish I was in at $10 per like some of you. I missed that one. But I would say that many of you ought to take your paper profits on bitchez-coins and move it into something a little more solid. Drop those tulip bulbs when you can profit on them. Make like John Law, baby, and get in a carriage full of PMs headed out of France. I wish I'd been as smart as some of you to take some fiat from this scheme so that I could turn it into the shiny stuff.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:45 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

 "What's the opposite of catching a falling knife?"

I don't know. Swallowing a rising sword? 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:58 | Link to Comment gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

if jpm steps into the world of btc, it's the end of jpm... bye, bye, naked shorts...

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:33 | Link to Comment RebelDevil
RebelDevil's picture

JPM is already almost dead. When the will of the people rise to buy up silver, then it's dead. xD

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:57 | Link to Comment sitenine
sitenine's picture

Why just go retard when you can go full retard?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 14:28 | Link to Comment Ag Tex
Ag Tex's picture

Something is screaming TPTB are going to do everything in order to tame this filly.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 13:21 | Link to Comment Tango in the Blight
Tango in the Blight's picture

I buy silver and bitcoin.

Of course I can't be happening, one has to be either a gold/silverbug or a bitcoinbug.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 13:53 | Link to Comment Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Now that both hands are on the 'baby', time to 'shake the baby'.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:07 | Link to Comment Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

No, that would be sitting on a rising sword, which you then upchuck

Ouch!

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:50 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

I wish I had money to launder, in which case I'd prefer BitCoin.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:59 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

"I wish I had any sizable assets to move out, in which case I'd use Bitcoin" is more appropriate.  For those who like their Constitutional Privacy, and the right not to pay ongoing Rent on their wealth.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:06 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

Precisely.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:30 | Link to Comment resurger
resurger's picture

/d

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:29 | Link to Comment resurger
resurger's picture

dont even compare silver to bitshit...

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:22 | Link to Comment New England Patriot
New England Patriot's picture

If the upward limit on BTC is 21 million units, and we're currently at 11 million units, and assuming people continue to adopt Bitcoins, then the value of a Bitcoin will continue to go up, right?

 

When a Bitcoin is worth $10,000.00, what good is that for a transaction to buy a $9.99 book on Amazon?

 

It seems BTC is a good store of wealth, but is it a good medium for wealth transfer (transactions)?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:33 | Link to Comment taniquetil
taniquetil's picture

I think the biggest problem is that the people adopting them right now are doing it for the price increases, rather than for the value as a transactional tool. Yes, some might be Russian's trying to hide money from the government, but most people are watching the MSM reports and riding the wave up.

 

As soon as BTC becomes a transactional tool for mainstream corporates, who have to convert it into dollar, you will get price suppression.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:57 | Link to Comment NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

That's probably what will happen if it lives that long.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:01 | Link to Comment gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

When a Bitcoin is worth $10,000.00, what good is that for a transaction to buy a $9.99 book on Amazon?

just transfer
0.001btc

 


Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:05 | Link to Comment XitSam
XitSam's picture

I was thinking BTC were in the mania phase. But it isn't. No one has entered in a big way. Brokers are not saying buy BTC. Shoe shine boys (are we still allowed to say that? Then newpaper boys? OK, taxi drivers) are not giving hot tips on BTC. Mania phase yet to come. Me, I lost all my bitcoins in a tragic boating accident.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:37 | Link to Comment kushmere
kushmere's picture

Ah, many people have this misconception.

A single bitcoin can be divided into units as small as .00000001

right now, .001 BTC is about 25cents

http://bestbitcoinsites.wordpress.com

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:40 | Link to Comment New England Patriot
New England Patriot's picture

That clears up my misconception. Thanks.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:56 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Interesting questions raised by finite supply, even if it's trillions of increments, involving pricing and transactional distortion during market corners.

Might be seeing it happen right now. 

BitCoin may be the only unimpeded free market for large currency swaps in the world right now.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:56 | Link to Comment Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

I want to know what happens when competing protocols are introduced for "DataCoins," "Digibux," "BinaryBux," "DigiDollars," "ByteMeBux," etc. etc.

And if BitCoins ever did escape suppression and start heading toward it's potential to supplant central bank issued fiat as a medium of exchange, the biggest question would be what the Au/BC ratio would look like.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:36 | Link to Comment A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

I've got some virtual oceanfront property in Arizona for sale. Let's talk.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:43 | Link to Comment McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

When a Bitcoin is worth $10,000.00, what good is that for a transaction to buy a $9.99 book on Amazon?

Better question: What's the value of a Bitcoin when the government outlaws it as a competing currency, labels it a tool of terrrists, and colludes with big businesses such as Amazon to drive it into permanent black market status?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:58 | Link to Comment Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Agree. While I love the idea, there is no way TPTB will let this stand if it gains momentum with the larger public. In the past decade whole countries have been taken down for daring to suggest they wanted to go off the petro-dollar! Regardless of what its proponents say Bitcoin will be taken down if the gov and/or banksters so desire.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:19 | Link to Comment Mine Is Bigger
Mine Is Bigger's picture

Many people seem to share your sentiment, but I wonder.  It is not as if bitcoins decrease the supply of fiat. Why do they care?  As long as goods and services are priced in dollars (in the case of the U.S.), whether the bitcoin is at $100 or $200 does not make any difference to the fiat world.  Any thoughts?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:40 | Link to Comment ATM
ATM's picture

Think of it the other way around. 

It isn't the supply but the demand for fiat that is threatened. They can print as much as they like but when Joe Blow demands from his employer to be paid in bitcoins thent TPTB have a problem. The lynch pin of their powers over us is control of the currency. 

We are certainly within our rights to use whatever currency we deem appropriate. We simply are barred from counterfeiting government issued currency but Bitcoin is not that. Bitcoin, or any ther competing currency, has to be stopped for them to retain their powers and exert even more.

Bitcoin will be imploded one way or another. Has to be. Probably by a "terrorist" attack/hack or some shenanigans where someone at bitcoin is caught embezzling. Something that providees cover but shakes the confidence.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:58 | Link to Comment Mine Is Bigger
Mine Is Bigger's picture

Of course, I understand your point of view.  If bitcoin ever becomes so widely accepted as being used to pay wage, then I'm sure they won't like it.  But I am not sure whether the price is $10 or $200 will be a compelling enough reason for them to come down on bitcoins.  The way it is going, the thing could collapse on its own without any meddling.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:21 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

"What's the value of a Bitcoin when the government outlaws it as a competing currency"

Well, if JPM and GS seriously get into it, that will never happen. Especially if they end up with some massive naked shorts outstanding. So, I guess the benefit is protection from the government, at the cost of suppressed prices?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:13 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

so you are saying the 'paper bitcoin' market is somehow going to do a bit of shit to the real value of bitcoins in the blockchain?

everyone takes delivery of bitcoins...  why are 90% of the folks here such in love with JPM, Ben, Squid, etc?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 13:21 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

With paper derivatives to gamble with for the speculators, only people who actually use bitcoin will want to actually hold them. If this happens, I suspect:

1. BTCUSD to drop

2. After the big drop, a much lower volitility, since there can be billions of $ in derivatives for every million $ in actual assets.

Look at gold, silver, everything else; do you really believe that bitcoin will be immune to the same manipulation that affects everything else?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:11 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

So many pro government folks here.... 'just u wait till Uncle Sam comes home, I'm a telling and u gonna get a whippin!'

 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:02 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Did you flunk math, or did not DYOH (Do Your Own Homework)?  As a mathematical unit, it can be divided into any tiny fraction.  E.g. 0.000,000,000,001 BTC.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:15 | Link to Comment Overflow-admin
Overflow-admin's picture

DYOH Dude

"To ensure this granularity of the money supply, clients can divide each BTC unit down to eight decimal places (a total of 2.1 × 1015 or 2.1 quadrillion units).[63]"

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:41 | Link to Comment ATM
ATM's picture

That's not enough for Japan.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:14 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

the lowest division is called a Satoshi

 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:43 | Link to Comment New England Patriot
New England Patriot's picture

God bless you.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 13:30 | Link to Comment ProtectiveFather
ProtectiveFather's picture

Bold use of commas on the right side of the decimal. I appreciate a man who charts his own course.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:28 | Link to Comment defencev
defencev's picture

I am moving all the way too: I will invest all sea shells I will be able to collect on Phuket beach during my coming vacations in this great fund.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:34 | Link to Comment SWIFT 760
SWIFT 760's picture

Be sure to check out Patong Beach. Plenty of girly action and the foreign chicks go topless...oh, and a few sea shells, I suppose.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:36 | Link to Comment smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhPdzjocFwI

yep, it is virtual, no counterparty risk, peer2peer, impossible to manipulate, blah, blah , blah.....its never different tjis time...if its to good to be true , it is...look you have something on your shirt.......if this news doesnt flatten this bubble, than the people we thought that were buying btc, you know the ones that are sticking to and achieving freedom from the "system"....wasnt really them.....it has been the same crooks that control  all the other  the systems......

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:40 | Link to Comment Silver Garbage Man
Silver Garbage Man's picture

You can say the same thing about silver.....AND IT IS TANGIBLE!

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:59 | Link to Comment smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

i think i did....the crooks control all other systems...that includes air

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 13:51 | Link to Comment Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

yeah, but who cares

you're still talking about something very small in the grand scheme of things.

look at how much money can be made on stupid penny stocks by penny stock promoters.  this is no different.  short the bitch.  make money.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:18 | Link to Comment Popo
Popo's picture

The founder, a former investment banker is going to put $50k of his own money towards initial margin reserves. 

LOL?

Is that supposed to be a lot?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:21 | Link to Comment Badabing
Badabing's picture

The founder, a former investment banker from JPM!

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:36 | Link to Comment YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

The only thing missing is a front man shouting, "Roll up, roll up folks!"

For your edifying pleasure..

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:26 | Link to Comment resurger
resurger's picture

A Piking Joo...

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:54 | Link to Comment Anasteus
Anasteus's picture

Yes, the first attempt of the oligarchs to screw the BTC market. It's necessary to take care about the upcoming paper game. They will certainly be trying to sell BTC without actually having them, a pure paper game, Bitcoin IOUs. Because of this, they will perhaps try to force placing Bitcoin exchange in the official rigged market place. Bitcoiners should not buy this farce and fall into the trap.

BTC exchange SHOULD remain separated from the official rigged currency exchange!

The good news is, they seem to have had to accept the existence of BTC and to desist from attacking it outright.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:29 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

It is interesting that a currency designed around decentralization, tends ever more towards more and more centralization. 

It was designed so everyone with a computer could be a part of the network using their CPU, but it has concentrated first to those with powerful GPUs, then FPGAs, and now (supposedly) ASICs.

It was designed for each person to mine independantly, to process transactions and prevent abuse of the system, but it has centralized into a few powerful mining pools.

It was designed for people to trade BTC for $ person to person, but now it is traded on a few (but primarily one) Forex service.

Does decentralization inevitably lead to consolidation and central control over time?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:39 | Link to Comment jayman21
jayman21's picture

Very interesting indeed.  I think you are seeing the herding behavior that always get us in trouble which leads us to non-productive things like normal bias, cognitive dissonance, and group think to name a few words I have learned about from Tyler and company.

 

Maybe one day we can shake it.  Until then, this is a fun story to watch.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:14 | Link to Comment Popo
Popo's picture

Oh, just what we need:  More comment spam.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:23 | Link to Comment Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

"the ability to earn interest on Bitcoins"

 

  The last one who did that was pirate@40, and we all know how that ended.  Interest on gold?  Interest on a deflationary currency?  That's going to be fun to watch.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:51 | Link to Comment skistroni
skistroni's picture

Offering interest on BTC works perfectly as long as the price is going down. You take BTC deposits, sell them at market, and buy at a lower price when you have to return the interst. Pirate went bust when the price started to rise. Maybe these guys have a plan???

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:33 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

pay the interest in USD, based on the BTCUSD price at time of the loan?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:41 | Link to Comment NedaGirl
NedaGirl's picture

Good read on LRC about the eventual demise of bitcoin
http://lewrockwell.com/rosenberg/rosenberg-p14.1.html

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 15:00 | Link to Comment NWO1776
NWO1776's picture

Bitcoin is crashing right now...  intraday high 266.  Current quote on Mt.Gox 142 and falling. (just clicked refresh)  UPTICK 172!  

LMAO  What a great bubble.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:14 | Link to Comment Capitalist
Capitalist's picture

Bitcoin, meet fractional reserve rehypothecation 1000:1 derivatives.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:15 | Link to Comment Ancona
Ancona's picture

Bitcoin just lost any credibility it had.

Oh, and fuck you Bernanke.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:15 | Link to Comment EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Why?

Does gold lose its credibility because market funds trade it?

As long as this is not setup by the bitcoin founders, I don't see how this changes anything.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:20 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

My Grandmother would like to 'invest in bitcoin' but would like to know who the founders are.........what should I tell her?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:24 | Link to Comment ZDRuX
ZDRuX's picture

Where are the founder of gold?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:31 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Mother Nature........Thus the difference..........just ask the Saudi's

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:30 | Link to Comment topshelfstuff
topshelfstuff's picture

Again, I would place BITCOIN right under GLD & SLV as the "Officially Approved" alternative to Buying Gold and Silver.

I've said before, the MSM Hype should be the Clue:

a couple weeks ago even CNBC was saying "Why isn't Gold flying high?", meanwhile BITCOIN Tripled.....hasn't anyone considered BITCOIN is there to help remove capital moving into the PM's....look at its Sponsorship, Look at the MSM assisting, now think about it. Can anyone, any entity remain masked, unknown given the ability to track anyone, everyone's email, phone, and especially money matters

The New Yorker has a great story in its upcoming issue about Bitcoin, the cryptocurrency still trucking along
after a glorious rise in value to $33 USD due to a spate of media-driven attention

Don't we all know th MSMedia is just a controlled extension of TPTB, and what have we been seeing, BITCOIN given a full blown Media Blitz trying to make it a well known entity, especially an Alternative to investing in Silver and Gold

behind and hyping BITCOIN you'll find, INHO, the same creators of GLD & SLV, looking to push these as a way to invest in Gold and Silver, instead of actually Buying the Physical

The fact that the MSM is splashing the name "BITCOIN", this alone should clue you in

<<<a glorious rise in value to $33 USD due to a spate of media-driven attention >>>

the price of a bitcoin has tripled over the last month and reached more than $141 for 1 BTC

<<< the unknown Satoshi Nakamoto, the pseudonym of the inventor of Bitcoin >>>

the I.D. of this individual, in this day and age can only remain "Unknown" if TPTB wants to keep it that way

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:39 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

''hasn't anyone considered BITCOIN is there to help remove capital moving into the PM's.''

 

Exactly ..........bitcoin is a CB's wetdream and much like the Patriot Act, had been sitting in a desk at the Fed just waiting for a monetary crisis

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:49 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

+1... That's exactly fucking what I said yesterday... & here's ALSO why you bitcoiners are FOS...

~~~REPOSTED FROM OTHER THREAD~~~

And here it comes people...

~~~

For the next [insert period of time here]... All you're gonna hear are the stories of the TITANS OF INDUSTRY [like jeebus]... Who never built anything with their hands & probably needs velcro shoes, how they SAW VALUE...

They'll be going on book & seminar tours & be on every single all night infomercial ad to regale you with stories about their PATH TO GLORY...

~~~

Unless, of course, it all crashes... Whereby you'll hear stories about how they 'top-ticked' the whole thing & went long physical silver... Unless paper silver crashes too, whereby you'll hear that it's all fiats under the mattress [you know  - those little things that they hated in the first place]...

~~~

I'd applaud you people if you weren't so FOS... Here's your actual story <from above>

 

How Jeebus got his money outside the banking system:

Step 1: Be a geek & take a flier on bitcoins... Get lucky & hit the lottery...

Step 2: Notice that bitcoin is getting absurdly absurdly hot and going up every day on no news. Conclude that perhaps it is time to sell [FOS alert right here, because if you REALLY believed in bitcoin, why would you ever sell?... You see... Motives change when the idea of 'profits' sink in]...

Step 3: Purchase lots and lots of gold and silver from amagi metals. I think I may have purchased a significant amount of their inventory.

Step 4: Consider purchasing a rocket launcher on the bitcoin black market to protect myself. [IOW - 'Trade in & Out of Bitcoin as a commodity' going forward, which is completely different than my original motive ~ At this point, I'm only a profit whore and will redeem such profits into something PHYSICAL, NOT DIGITAL, from here on out even though I spent countless hours blabbing about how 'digital' was the new paradigm & the Get.Off.My.Lawn crowd can go fuck themselves]...

~~~HERE'S ANOTHER STORY~~~

How francis_sawyer got his money outside the banking system:

Step 1: Work & earn money producing goods, or services & save your money

Step 2: Pay off all debt

Step 3: Close bank account

Step 4: Buy land, food, guns, ammo, & PM's

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:49 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Your Mossad comment got me thinking...........

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:15 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

@dcg ~ I don't know what to think... In life ~ I just try to think of everything... Here's a random summary of 'thoughts' I have on BITCOIN...

~~~

- On the CIA/NSA/MOSSAD theory... I dunno ~ Is there someone out there who can prove that that's not a possibility?

- On the "it stops at 21 million coins" theory... How the hell does anyone fucking know?... I won't cum on your face sweetie, I promise

- & that is said by someone who is both 'anonymous' & hasn't been heard from in 2 years

- That it can't be hacked or cracked?... "Fortresses are a testimony to the stupidity of mankind" Gen George Patton

- That merchants will go on accepting it?... Well ~ just yesterday, there was story on an apartment rental company was accepting BITCOIN as payment... Lock in your leases folks!

- Same thing about someone selling a house for bitcoins in Canada last week

- & here's the WORST... IMO ~ Bitcoiners are FOS... Because all I've heard for the past month, from them, is that they were bitcoiners FOR LIFE, STICKIN IT TO THE MAN... Whoops! Bubble... Better lock in some 'profits'... Shit ~ I'm not against the idea of 'locking in profits'... But can't you see that your whole high falutin initial logic just got warped by a little profit?... If you were true to your roots, you'd NEVER sell for cash... You'd just use them for transactions [like you promised you were doing at the beginning]... But whoops... There's no longer a market of goods to purchase at crazy valuations... So what kind of 'currency' is this again?

GET.OFF.MY.LAWN

~~~

Edit: Once again ~ 'junks', but no rebuttals [story of my life here]... Hey CH1... What was you called me the other day?... A 'hater'?... lol

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:33 | Link to Comment DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

A junk is easier than thinking through your own bias to discover what you really believe only to find out you don't know what you believe so you go with what seems expedient at the time.

Intellectually lazy is a intellectually lazy does...

DaddyO

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:50 | Link to Comment EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Fucking hell, I've suffered some deluded, highly self-opinionated tweeps on this website, but your diatribe takes the cake. I mean, sheesh, you actually compile your own thoughts. Fucking hell, someone clearly has high thoughts about himself.

Christ almighty.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 14:11 | Link to Comment Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

yeah, but francis points out that

Hey CH1... What was you called me the other day?... A 'hater'?...

and i can relate to that.  ch1 called me a joo hater too; but then when i pointed out to ch1 that the hofjuden captured the fractional reserve banking system and turned it into a hofjuden run scam intended to defraud working stiffs of fruits of their labor, ch1 couldnt argue  or rebuttle that widely known fact.  all that the joo lover ch1 can do is call anyone that points out the obvious, specifically that the hofjuden who are currently in charge of central banking are criminals, and are committing crimes against humanity, and should be decapitated, are jew haters.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 14:29 | Link to Comment RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

See, I junked you because you really added no analysis or content, other than a quote that is itself unattributed.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:47 | Link to Comment NedaGirl
NedaGirl's picture

Interesting theory, and perhaps TPTB will allow it to exist for that purpose for awhile. Eventually, however, they won't like the fiat competition and will crush it when into longer suits their purpose.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:49 | Link to Comment e.blair
e.blair's picture

Bingo, this is the most likely explanation for all of it.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:30 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I'm tellin' ya man... The CIA's operating budget comes from running drugs [& has all along]... Do you think we're in Afghanistan for any other reason than to guard poppy fields...

~~~

Fucking bitcoin, theoretically, would be a piece of cake...

- create a currency

- promote it to all the 'stick it to the man' types

- have them take the bait

- use events [like Cyprus], which can be used as a backdrop for justification

- watch all the sheep drain their bank accounts & run to 'Mt Gox' to GET IN

VACUUM CLEANER FOR CASH ~ THANKS FOR PLAYING [too bad you're too broke to buy gold now ~ go back to work ~ better yet ~ take out a loan]

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:36 | Link to Comment Freddie
Freddie's picture

How many wars have we been in that have involved narcotics running by the elites and european bankster families?  Chinese Opium wars, Vietnam, Balkans/Serbia, Afghanistan, probably a few in Latin America especially Panama.  What "wars" have I forgotten?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:17 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

bitcoin is unshackled, gold and silver is locked down  -   why can't you fuckin see the difference?

finally something comes along and bucks the system, and all you clowns piss and moan since it isn't gods holy gold & silver doing it

perhaps bitcoins is the weapon you need to destroy Blythe Mistress ..  no freed Silver untill you destroy Blythe Mistress

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:15 | Link to Comment swissaustrian
swissaustrian's picture

Why does anyone need leverage in such a market? Volatility is high enough already.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:36 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

Who wants to triple their money in a month, when they could get a 30X return?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:15 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

 

 

I'm launching a platform for trading Cabbage Patch dolls.  Registration fee is two cartons of pre-1990, mint-condition Twinkies.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:24 | Link to Comment StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture

My lawyers will see you in court as this is a blatant rip off of my Pet Rock Trading proposal!

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:59 | Link to Comment zetsurin
zetsurin's picture

This potentially violates my patent "method of accepting Twinkies for payments".

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:14 | Link to Comment Popo
Popo's picture

Bzzz. Wrong.  The above article fails to understand what's coming.  

The ability to short the market on a margin does not necessarily mean that the exponential growth continues at all.   It is just as likely that a leveraged smackdown is coming.  But then that wouldn't allow certain people to "talk their book" here on ZH. 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:21 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

You should assume that everybody here is talking their book....then again if you had read the conflicts/ full disclosure policy you would know that.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:27 | Link to Comment Popo
Popo's picture

Easy there, tiger.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:15 | Link to Comment EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

so will this fund actually have real bitcoins, or re-re-re-re-hypothecated bitcoins?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:39 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

More importantly, does it pay out in BTC or USD? Maybe it is a pure synthetic BTC service, and all there is, is a bunch of USD. In which case, you can short more than the entire money supply of BTC.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:14 | Link to Comment Jean Valjean
Jean Valjean's picture

Isn't this the kind of thing they do with real currencies??

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:16 | Link to Comment Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

and i guess this and the Fraud Markets hitting all time highs on absolutely NOTHING would of course explain this .....

http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html

 

yeah, ok......

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:17 | Link to Comment dwayne elizando
dwayne elizando's picture

Oh great just what the world needs, digital bucket shops!

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:17 | Link to Comment observer007
observer007's picture

ECB to confiscate Euro 500 Notes?

 

THE ECB should exterminate Euro 500 Notes says BoA Analyst - "Its good for the economy"

"Significant evidence that much of the demand comes from criminals and tax evaders."

http://homment.com/EZB-euro-500


Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:55 | Link to Comment The Abstraction...
The Abstraction of Justice's picture

I swapped mine for physical silver a few years ago because I guessed this would happen. Prophet, me.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:17 | Link to Comment Burt Gummer
Burt Gummer's picture

Unfuckingreal.

 

Is bitcoin a beta test for a new worldwide global currency?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJEX04wG_0

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:17 | Link to Comment DogOfSinope
DogOfSinope's picture

"What's the opposite of catching a falling knife?"

Falling on a stationary, upwards ponting knife?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:37 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

The USSR actually conceived of something like that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AntonovA40.jpg

 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:13 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

I don't think those wings could carry a tank :)

and the recoil would tear the wings right off after 1 shot :)

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:40 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

I don't think you fire it in-flight; the wings are to get you to the front, then you land and use explosives to blow off the wings, and ta-da! you have a light tank in some otherwise hard to reach place.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:26 | Link to Comment Diet Coke and F...
Diet Coke and Floozies's picture

Hit by a rocket during the launch phase?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:19 | Link to Comment Burt Gummer
Burt Gummer's picture

"Short this...on margin..."

Is that an official call by the Tyler's to short BitCoins?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:25 | Link to Comment A is A
A is A's picture

I was wondering the same thing. I have a hard time believing he would actually recommend shorting this. Maybe he was just being sarcastic???

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:38 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

ZH has a strict policy against sarcasm. Right?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:53 | Link to Comment Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

Strictly enforced  : - >

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:20 | Link to Comment jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

like vegas but without the girls

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:19 | Link to Comment cherry picker
cherry picker's picture

I was criticized on another thread for not having imagination with BitCoin as I noted it iwas something I would not deal in for many reasons.

They used the case of credit cards, on line banking as examples.

Yet I see BitCoin now as being no different than fiat.

Of course there is a cap, only 22 million will ever be made, right?

What they neglect to say is that BitCoin can be sliced and diced to infinity.

What is so different about BitCoin and fiat?

Nothing.

Except no one can control the slicing or dicing and who knows what the stuff is really worth for an hourss labor or basket of groceries?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:20 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

so gold is fiat too?  what flavor of brain damage do you have?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:21 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

The platform will allow leverage (via margin) and the ability to short the market....

YEAH BABY!!!!! I'M IN!!

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:20 | Link to Comment dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

This is surreal. 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:23 | Link to Comment A is A
A is A's picture

I wanna see who actually has the balls to short this... Seriously, you could easily get wiped out.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:27 | Link to Comment Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Like the PM naked shorters you mean ?

The end.

RIP BTC.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:36 | Link to Comment forwardho
forwardho's picture

Oh come now, with a 100/1 leverage the market could be blown with a cheezy billion.

b/c is up against creatures that babble in billions and move trillions.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:39 | Link to Comment saints51
saints51's picture

The Fed. You can't wipe out a computer who keeps adding 1's and 0's to its balance.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:20 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Avalon vs the Fed

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:58 | Link to Comment bluskyes
bluskyes's picture

Are bitcoin transactions legally recognized? Who would prosecute you if you failed to pay up?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:22 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

its digital cash..  same as on the street

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:22 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

All right, this is just gettin' stupid, know what 

I mean Vern?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:23 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

@all out of bubblegum exposed 'bitcoin' for what it is.........a ponzi based fantasy.......

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:22 | Link to Comment sudzee
sudzee's picture

21 million bitcoin x say 500 leverage. Now thats a market one can hang his hat on.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:24 | Link to Comment DogOfSinope
DogOfSinope's picture

Tulips could at least be arranged in a vase. And it's rather a nice looking flower! There is some aesthetic value there.

But this... Even hot air has more substance. Literally! 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:42 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

The flowers of tulips are transitory. 

 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:06 | Link to Comment Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

The word is intangible. It is just like the currencies in on-line roleplaying games which are also bought and sold on the internet with fiat currency. It does not, in fact, exist in the real world. Talk about sheer lunacy. Any bitcoin holders not rushing to cash out at the current price will most likely regret it down the road. Anyone who has attempted to make money in the mmrpg economies know the Chinese rule that arena with their army of internet drones. God help the bitcoiners when the Chinese get seriously involved in this new "game".

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 13:20 | Link to Comment Cleg1
Cleg1's picture

This is exactly where I'm at with this. Even if the Bitcoin was legit to start with and not a CIA/Bankster scheme to draw off PM speculation, it has all the corptability of all the other virtual money - or Facebook bucks as I call them. Literally investing in Farmville. No thanks. I would rather have paper fiat. At least I can wipe my ass with it.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:27 | Link to Comment RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

SCAM.  Unlike PM's, you can't sell Bitcoins you don't own, so it is impossible to affect the price of Bitcoins by "shorting".  Shorting is impossible.  

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:34 | Link to Comment dwayne elizando
dwayne elizando's picture

The point of the article is that soon there will be a platform with which you can short it and use leverage.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:48 | Link to Comment RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

Let me repeat - it is IMPOSSIBLE to sell Bitcoins that you don't own.  Bitcoins have a signature that the entire network validates, it is not possible to sell one that isn't recognized by the network.  They can't be shorted. 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:49 | Link to Comment ROCE
ROCE's picture

Actually you can short bitcoins, two ways:

 

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/iwantto    (Hong Kong)

https://icbit.se/futures (Sweden)

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:55 | Link to Comment RSBriggs
RSBriggs's picture

No.   These do not add to the Bitcoin count - these are nothing but paper and affect that supply of Bitcoins exactly ZERO.   You can attempt to short 50 million of them, but it will not affect the supply of BitCoin by even .0000001.  

I'll repeat this once more for people that are having trouble understanding this.  YOU CAN NOT SELL BITCOINS THAT YOU DON"T OWN.  IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.  Selling means transferring even a small fraction of a Bitcoin to another user, and that can't be done unless you own a valid Bitcoin to start with.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:20 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

"SCAM.  Unlike PM's, you can't sell Bitcoins you don't own"

~~~

By saying this, you're implying that, because there is a paper market for PM's, then it's all but useless to own them because the price can be controlled...

WRONG

They can do whatever they want to the paper market, but it doesn't affect ANYONE'S PRIVATELY HELD STASH of PM's one iota... Nobody can SELL a bar of gold that is not held within the system [other than 'synthetically', by applying leverage to what's in the system]...

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:48 | Link to Comment RebelDevil
RebelDevil's picture

"No. These do not add to the Bitcoin count - these are nothing but paper and affect that supply of Bitcoins exactly ZERO. You can attempt to short 50 million of them, but it will not affect the supply of BitCoin by even .0000001. "

True. It is hard-coded into the protocol that the bitcoin supply only grows at a pre-programed rate. (ie. - inelastic and the price is totally dependent on demand.) HOWEVER, as long as there are people willing to LEND bitcoins to others to short, then you can short. They do that at bitfinex.com now.
As long as bitcoin is on the upside, it is actually quite profitable to lend to those who think it's gonna crash before the month's end (it probably won't, as they'll owe you with interest as it gains.) THOUGH, one could get make HUGE profits if they can time the crash in demand perfectly and properly short it.

At this point, bitcoin when priced in fiat is a weekly "Double or Nothing" game. (demand could crash if there's a mass scare.)

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:12 | Link to Comment Thisson
Thisson's picture

It can be shorted according to the same principles as anything else.  I can pay you to borrow your bitcoins, and then I can sell them into the open market.  You are taking the risk that I won't perform, and accepting the premium in exchange for that risk.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 14:26 | Link to Comment Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

the missing link is this:  if i were one of the banksters that is above the law and contract law meant nothing to me, especially fed reserve banksters that can print confetti at will, i would short btc and then instead of delivering btc, i would force you to accept my confetti.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 13:44 | Link to Comment dwayne elizando
dwayne elizando's picture

You're not understanding how speculative markets work. This will create an avenue to do the exact same thing as happens in gold and silver. Creating a speculative derivative position in gold doesn't create gold out of thin air either.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:16 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

looks like a legit site...

so...

...where do I enter my creditcard numbers?....

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:35 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

If you read the contents on these web pages carefully, you'll realize that they are Derivatives markets -- Side Bets!  Side-bets, in which you can make or loose fiat money, but have no linkage to BTC or BTC prices.  It's like having a betting pool of a ball game. 

If people can't fathom this, then they are "ripe for the picking" on many an "opportunity".  Their biz model operates on the old premise: "There's a sucker born every minute".  Hedge accordingly.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:24 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

You do know that when you sell ANY commodity short, you are not actually delivering the physical gold bar, barrel of oil, or bushel of wheat to the buyer... you're just selling just a piece of paper with a promise and some vague legalese about term, duration, quantity and settlement procedure (which conveniently [for JPM] does change from time to time)...

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:50 | Link to Comment RebelDevil
RebelDevil's picture

People need to recognize that bitcoin is not paper, nor is it tanigible. It has rules no one can break without everyone knowing. It's a totally new class of asset.

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:01 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Perhaps, but that is irrelevant to whether it can it be shorted in Wall Street Wacky World.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 14:53 | Link to Comment RebelDevil
RebelDevil's picture

After some thought, I realize that it absolutely impossible to naked short sell or rehypothecate BTC. (+1 for bitcoin!)
However, that doesn't stop banks or exchanges from creating "Paper BTC" or "BTC Derivatives".

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:30 | Link to Comment haskelslocal
haskelslocal's picture

What happened to that clown on the news, who lost his Bitcoin password and was therefore out on $50k in Bitcoin value. That was 3 months ago, when it was at $20. What's he thinking now?

(Story is that even Bitcoin cannot give you your password when lost because they cannot track and store the data, keeping them independent.)

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:33 | Link to Comment danster82
danster82's picture

This is not a bubble. No one is blowing anything with an agenda behind it, zerohedge has simply sunk into childish rambblings of a thing they did not see coming and cannot comprehend and still dont (unfortunatley).

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:01 | Link to Comment RebelDevil
RebelDevil's picture

We don't know it's a bubble until it does start to pop. The value of bitcoin as a means of exchange is now very established and secure. However, its value based in fiat is entirely based on demand, so if there is any sort of information that makes bitcoin holders insecure about their holdings, then it would sell off like crazy and/or get massively shorted.

I see demand staying though, as bitcoin is clearly (as of now) the messiah that can save you from both PM manipulation (short term risk) and the crashing of fiat (short and long term risk).

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:22 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

not really... it is based on the realization of Ben printing $85 billion a month.. gold is buried by TPTB, bitcoins isn't

 

everything you wanted in the price of gold will happen with bitcoins

 

 

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 10:35 | Link to Comment Dr. Gonzo
Dr. Gonzo's picture

People like the idea of Bitcoin because there's no government forcing them to use it as currency?....However legal tender laws and public indebtedness are basically the only things that gives our current money it's value today so I would see this as a disadvantage when comparing two intrinsically worthless currencies side by side... in addition to the fact that it's not widely acceptable for most of my currency needs. I just don't get it. If you can't weigh and measure it then it's just an idea. I like good ideas but when it comes to money mine needs to be real.  

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 11:46 | Link to Comment jayman21
jayman21's picture

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/04/10/making-gold-silver-legal-tender/

 

This is a direct challenge to your understanding of legal tender.  I have to admit when I read it, I had to change my mind as well.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!