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Carmen Reinhart: "No Doubt. Our Pensions Are Screwed."

Tyler Durden's picture


"The crisis isn't over yet," warns Carmen Reinhart, "not in the US and not in Europe." Known for her deep understanding that 'it's never different this time', the Harvard economist drops the truth grenade a number of times in this excellent Der Spiegel interview. Sweeping away the sound and fury of a self-serving Federal Reserve or BoJ, she chides, "no central bank will admit it is keeping rates low to help governments out of their debt crises. But in fact they are bending over backwards to help governments to finance their deficits," and guess what, "this is nothing new in history."

After World War II, all countries that had a big debt overhang relied on financial repression to avoid an explicit default. After the war, governments imposed interest rate ceilings for government bonds; but, nowadays, she explains, "monetary policy is doing the job. And with high unemployment and low inflation that doesn't even look suspicious. Only when inflation picks up, which is ultimately going to happen, will it become obvious that central banks have become subservient to governments."

Nations "seldom just grow themselves out of debt," as so many believe is possible, "you need a combination of austerity, so that you don't add further to the pile of debt, and higher inflation, which is effectively a subtle form of taxation," with the consequence that people are going to lose their savings. Reinhart succinctly summarizes, "no doubt, our pensions are screwed."


This will take 3 minutes to read - read it. Understand what she is saying.

Via Der Spiegel,

... governments are incapable of reducing their debts and that central banks are now stepping up to resolve the crisis themselves. In the end, she argues, everyday savers will pay the price.


SPIEGEL: Ms. Reinhart, central banks around the world are flooding the markets with cheap money in order to spur economies and support governments. Are these institutions losing their independence? 

Reinhart: No central bank will admit it is keeping rates low to help governments out of their debt crises. But in fact they are bending over backwards to help governments to finance their deficits. This is nothing new in history. After World War II, there was a long phase in which central banks were subservient to governments. It has only been since the 1970s that they have become politically more independent. The pendulum seems to be swinging back as a result of the financial crisis.

SPIEGEL: Is that true of the European Central Bank as well?

Reinhart: Less than for other central banks, but yes. And the crisis isn't over yet -- not in the United States and not in Europe.

SPIEGEL: But the danger of such a central bank policy is already well known: It can lead to high inflation.

Reinhart: True. But it is certainly more difficult for a central banker to raise interest rates with a debt to gross domestic product ratio of over 100 percent than it is when this ratio stands at 39 percent. Therefore, I believe the shift towards less independence of monetary policy is not just a temporary change.

SPIEGEL: As a historian who knows the potential long-term consequences very well, doesn't such short-sighted decision-making frighten you?

Reinhart: I am not opposing this change, I am just stating it. You have to deal with the debt overhang one way or the other because the high debt levels are an impediment to growth, they paralyze the financial system and the credit process. One way to cope with this is to write off part of the debt.

SPIEGEL: You mean some kind of haircut?

Reinhart: Yes. But we are in an environment where politicians are very reluctant to do write-offs. So what happens is that money is transferred from savers to borrowers via negative interest rates.

SPIEGEL: In other words: When the inflation rate is higher than the interest rates paid on the markets, the debts shrink as if by magic. The downside, though, is that this applies to the savings of normal people.

Reinhart: The technical term for this is financial repression. After World War II, all countries that had a big debt overhang relied on financial repression to avoid an explicit default. After the war, governments imposed interest rate ceilings for government bonds. Nowadays they have more sophisticated means.

SPIEGEL: Which means?

Reinhart: Monetary policy is doing the job. And with high unemployment and low inflation that doesn't even look suspicious. Only when inflation picks up, which is ultimately going to happen, will it become obvious that central banks have become subservient to governments.

SPIEGEL: Do you think it is wrong for Europe to focus on austerity measures with inflation at such a low level?

Reinhart: No. Restructuring, inflation und financial repression are not substitutes for austerity. All these measures reduce your existing stock of debt. Unless you do austerity you keep adding to the debt. There is no either-or. You need a combination of both to bring down debt to a sustainable level.

SPIEGEL: Is the new trend in monetary policies a good way of tackling debt problems?

Reinhart: There are no silver bullets. If central banks try to accommodate and buy debt, there are risks associated with it. Somewhere down the road you are going to wind up with higher inflation. That is a safe bet -- even in Japan …

SPIEGEL: … which is currently dealing with the opposite phenomenon: deflation with sinking prices.

Reinhart: A further risk of such policies is that efforts to save will be delayed.

SPIEGEL: So what should be done?

Reinhart: The best way of dealing with a debt overhang is to never get into one. Once you have one, what can you do? You can pray for higher growth, but good luck! Historically it doesn't happen -- you seldom just grow yourself out of debt. You need a combination of austerity, so that you don't add further to the pile of debt, and higher inflation, which is effectively a subtle form of taxation …

SPIEGEL: … with the consequence that people are going to lose their savings?

Reinhart: No doubt, pensions are screwed. Governments have a lot of leverage on what kinds of assets pension funds hold. In France, for example, public pension funds have shifted money from shares (on the stock market) to government bonds. Not because their returns are great, but because it is more expedient for the government. Pension funds, domestic banks and insurance companies are the most captive audiences, because governments can just change the rules of the game.

SPIEGEL: We have seen 50 years of peace and democracy in Europe, but also 50 years of rising debt. Are democracies incapable of setting a budget and sticking to it?

Reinhart: No, but after World War II austerity was easier to pursue, because you had a younger population and therefore less entitlements. Furthermore, military expenditure was easier to reduce. So, the build-up in debt we have seen since the crisis is very rare. Usually you get that kind of build-up when there is a war.

SPIEGEL: But is it not a declaration of bankruptcy for democracy if central bankers, who haven't even been elected, have to step in to fix the problem in the end?

Reinhart: I think the biggest mistake that European policy-makers are now making is not to put debt restructuring more explicitly on the table.

SPIEGEL: Are you referring to Greece?

Reinhart: Greece has had its restructuring, that's history. But look at Ireland and Spain. Private senior bank debt has not been written off, despite the fact that underlying asset prices in those countries have collapsed and are still collapsing.

SPIEGEL: So closures of some banks would be helpful?

Reinhart: What is sacrosanct about bank debt?

SPIEGEL: Well, the bankruptcy of banks can have a considerable effect on the financial system.

Reinhart: Let me be a little blunter: A haircut is a transfer from the creditor to the borrower. Who would get hit by a haircut? French banks, German banks, Dutch banks -- banks from the creditor countries. So you can see why this is politically torched. This is why it is not done, it's a redistribution. But ultimately it is going to happen, because the level of debt is too high.

SPIEGEL: The United States is very highly indebted as well.

Reinhart: Yes, but who are the large holders of government bonds? Foreign central banks. You think the Bank of China is going to be repaid? The US doesn't have to default explicitly. If you have negative real interest rates, the effect on the creditors is the same. That is also a transfer from China, South Korea, Brazil and other creditors to the US.

SPIEGEL: And what happens if the creditors don't continue to play along and the interest rates on American government bonds climb? Do you see the danger of a debt crisis in the US?

Reinhart: Why do we have such low interest rates? The Federal Reserve Bank is prepared to continue buying record levels of debt as long as the unemployment situation isn't satisfying. And China's central bank will also continue to buy treasuries, because they don't want the renminbi to appreciate.

SPIEGEL: That sounds like a perpetual motion …

Reinhart: ... of course it is!


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Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:31 | 3438968 BlueStreet
BlueStreet's picture

It's like the credit card company lowering the interest rate so you can pay off the balance but then upping the credit limit at the same time.  What a fucked up world.  

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:33 | 3438978 ghandi
ghandi's picture

To repudiate the debt, the assets must be seized.



Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:37 | 3438985 markmotive
markmotive's picture

Can't run from debt. Meanwhile, markets are getting WAY more complacent.

A picture says 1000 words:

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:37 | 3438995 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

can't outrun 3200 fps, neither.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:45 | 3439030 Oquities
Oquities's picture

buy stuff and hide it !!!!!

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:04 | 3439093 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Buy stuff and flaunt it!!!

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:07 | 3439097 AssFire
AssFire's picture

Rent whores...and flaunt it!!!

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:46 | 3439108 Zer0head
Zer0head's picture

the Harvard economist drops the truth grenade

should read

the Harvard economist drops the prop grenade


(hey Carm, sweetheart float this, okay. glad you understand need to move this meme from the conspiracy crowd to mainstream) 

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:38 | 3439361 MillionDollarBogus_
MillionDollarBogus_'s picture

What's a pension..??

Most corporations did away with them years ago...

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:53 | 3439394 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

That's in part becasue they were taxed so heavily to pay for the fat benefits and pensions of public workers...

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:11 | 3439429 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Yet they are making record profits, how does that work?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:32 | 3439472 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

By having private sector pay for public sector...slaves not shareholders

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 00:38 | 3439628 macholatte
macholatte's picture

the Harvard economist drops the truth grenade

should read

the Harvard economist drops the prop grenade


I don't see any "truth grenade" getting dropped anywhere. Maybe it's just that Carmen has figured it out so now it's a revelation cause she's got a PhD. Sheeit. More like a dud to me. Like telling me the suns comes up in the morning. Gimme some truth and tell me that a central banker is going to jail for treason or a politician isn't getting reelected because he's corrupt. Otherwise, fa ged about it.

Hey, what time's Doomsday Preppers?



Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:42 | 3439731 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

This woman is an absolute fucking genius, but then so is anybody else who read ZH for more than a mere few days.

Maybe we could all get PHD's eh...

because like you say, there's nothing new here...

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 06:16 | 3439922 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Yeah, the government is running out of money.  Look at their income statement.  But wait.  What about the government's balance sheet?  Looks to me like they "own" most of America west of the Mississippi.  Plenty of value there.  Mineral rights.  Grazing rights.  Logging.  They also have lots of equipment.  Maybe I could use one of those IED proof vehicles or my very own drone.

How about we declare the government bankrupt and disperse the assets to its citizens.  Maybe we can unlock the value in the assets.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 08:04 | 3440046 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

"because like you say, there's nothing new here..."

Disagree. There's nothing new in the content, we've been hearing it for years from Faber, Rogers, Richebacher, etc.  But it is new to hear it from a Harvard establishment bankster economist--an insider. Tells us that Reinhart isn't looking for a job at the Fed or BIS--she knows that the fiat reactor core is about to melt down.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 09:33 | 3440365 marathonman
marathonman's picture

Her book with Roghoff, 'This Time is Different - Eight Centuries of Financial Folly' is actually very good.  A bit dry and academic, but at the height of the financial crisis I got it and read it.  This stuff is as old as dirt.  Government hucksters, sociopathic national politicians, and banksters have been playing this game for ages.  The upshot that I remember is that once your country's debt to GDP goes over 90% a financial crisis often results in a sovereign debt crisis.  Very few escaped that outcome.  Argentina, Brazil, Germany, Austria, Zimbabwe, Russia, etc, etc, couldn't escape.  The road is well plowed.  Americans are ignorant (by design) of financial history.  We are about 25 years out from the bust of the Soviet Union.  We'll get there shortly for many of the same reasons.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 05:41 | 3439901 No Euros please...
No Euros please we're British's picture

Ever considered that company pension schemes were taxed heavily so that they would be closed down?

Companies paid a fixed defined pension which was (hopefully) funded from company profits and investing pension contributions in the stock market. A system which was out of the direct control of the government and because it was linked to final salary was to some extent inflation proof.

Now you have to put your pension with a pension provider, aka bankster, who puts the money where ever the government dictates. They don't need to make a profit and they charge you administration costs for losing your pension and effectively handing it over to the government.


Fri, 04/12/2013 - 10:17 | 3440597 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

I'm pensive about my pension to the point of pensiveness causing tension apprehension.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 05:44 | 3439903 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

duh . . . what a 'genius' this woman is. The pension grab has been known about for a couple years at least.

Though it is a little surprising she finally figured it out given that she's spent so much time in 'school' that she go a Phd. Most of them never figure it out at all.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:21 | 3439129 ACP
ACP's picture

Steal 401k money, and flaunt it!

Obama wants a $3 mil limit on 401ks but no limit on government pensions?

Flaunt it, gubmint BITCHEZ!

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:47 | 3439204 Life of Illusion
Life of Illusion's picture



 "But we are in an environment where politicians are very reluctant to do write-offs."

and who do they work for?  ,,,,,debt collectors,,,,


Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:50 | 3439521 TrustbutVerify
TrustbutVerify's picture

And I'll bet that the $3 million limit (wink wink) won't be adjusted for inflation over time.  So after a while the real limit amount will come way down.  'Cause inflation is on the cusp.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:54 | 3439227 imbrbing
imbrbing's picture

Buy whores and rent them out!

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:45 | 3439373 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Charge whores to credit cards and stiff them both!

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 00:59 | 3439670 ShakaZulu
ShakaZulu's picture

And end up in a debtor's prison with Shemp as a cellmate?  

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 02:44 | 3439788 akak
akak's picture

Why I oughtta .....

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:35 | 3439718 prains
prains's picture


spolier alert your pensions were FUCKED back since 1981 <Raygun fucked you>

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 08:08 | 3440051 Watauga
Watauga's picture

Okay, it is all Reagan's fault.  Just like what is mostly Obama's $17T debt is all W's fault.  Now, please explain yourself and enlighten us.  Just how did Ronal Reagan do this?  And, if you want to go back into history and start casting blame, why not go back to at least LBJ, who foisted hell upon our nation to buy the permanent Democrat majority via unbridled Third World immigration combined with unbridled transfer of wealth from those who work to those who vote Democrat?  Or, why not go back to FDR, who foisted upon America the single worst mass social program in its history in order secure his idea of a permanent Democrat majority?  Or for that matter, why not go back to WW, who not only changed the U.S. from a nation concerned with the U.S. into an imperial nation, all the while touting worldwide freedom and one-world order?  Or why not go back to General Lincoln, whose war upon a sovereign nation cost nearly a million American lives in order to secure the monied interests of the North?  Or heck, why not go all the way back to the Founders, who set up the system under the Constitution, likely understanding that, over the long-term, the system would permit the perversion of the balance of power such that the Central Govt would assume ALL power and destroy ALL rights and take TOTAL control?  Reagan was a lot of things, but for this mess, and for the loss of the pension system, the blame goes to a whole host of monsters.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 09:37 | 3440386 marathonman
marathonman's picture

+1 E 99   Wataunga is the man!!!!!!

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:09 | 3439282 Mr. Magoo
Mr. Magoo's picture

Is this supposed to be something new? I guess nobody remembers 2008 when most peoples retirement funds were wiped out by 50% due to bad investments by the banksters. And since then the negative interest rates when compared to the real cost of living increases people who continue to keep their money in banks  and investment funds are being robbed right before their eyes

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:03 | 3439418 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

I know, I was one of them.  Also this won't get any better because we literally have to much debt that must be written off but they won't do that.  Look at the market right now, set to burst through 15,000.  Many are saying that we are going to take a major hit down soon, and I think it will happen.  There is a monster that is swimming under the dark  waters that isn't breaking the surface but is making waves on the surface of the ocean of finance.  I think we haven't figured out the one truth to all systems, and that is there is a chance of anything happening to muck up a system no matter  how remote or silly.  It may be billions to one but it's still there, and the more that we monkey with the odds and averages the more that it makes possible for the one in  billion chances to come into fruition.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:29 | 3439458 tango
tango's picture

The monster is always (and has always) been there but he grows in ferocity and size as we feed him bad massive, unsustained debt.  The central planners have thrown everything off.  This is why the old "hyperinflation if trillions are added" is not following script.  It's why markets rise even as disposable income dwindles in a consumer economy.  '

I have heard (and believed theoreticaly) for years that hyperinflation was an emminent threat but a quick look at Japan giives pause.  Here is a nation that has pumped trillions for two decades and prices are lower than when it all began.  Something had to give among all the components -  currency, abiity to borrow, markets, inflation, etc  - and in Japan's case it was markets and currency...but no inflation. 

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:43 | 3439739 quartshort
quartshort's picture

Tyrannosaurus Debt! Sing it with me.....

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 07:49 | 3440028 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Japan was/is atypical.

Asset prices were so overblown that those trillions merely went to propping them up.

Now we are in the same situation which is not sustainable while the dollar is


Fri, 04/12/2013 - 00:26 | 3439602 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

"The crisis isn't over yet,"


The crisis hasn't started yet

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:47 | 3439376 Freddie
Freddie's picture

I am hoping union govt workers pensions and other union pensions are screwed.  My guess is taxpayers will get screwed to make the goons pensions whole.  Hope & Change = Cloward Piven.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:17 | 3439438 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

BINGO Freddie! Here in Minnesota many police and firefighter pensions are way underfunded. Our state legislature is working on a special tax on Car insurance policies and Home Owners Insurance policies. It works like this, every person buying one of these policies, i.e. ALL home and car owners, i.e. EVRYBODY, will be charged a special tax on every insurance policy, this money will go to the state to then be handed out to municiple Police and firefighter pensions funds.

The legislators say we OWE this to the brave men and women who come to the scene of house fire and car accidents. Do you see the logic here? We OWE them these fat pesnions at age 50. Cops and Firefighters are getting all the tax money from citiy tax payers, now they want to spread more taxes state wide to garner more cash to fatten their pensions.


Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:23 | 3439445 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

what a fucking joke-the MSM is totally complicit in this hero-worship.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:39 | 3439487 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Meg Whitman ran in California with public pension as her agenda. Before she started public campaign trails cops told her not to touch their pension or else they won't guarantee her safety. Whitman excluded police pension months prior to election.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 00:42 | 3439639 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

fuck 'em- she could hire private security.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:36 | 3439719 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Just one of the components necessary to take over a country without a coup.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:38 | 3439484 brettd
brettd's picture

Tax everyone more so Warren Buffett, Bill Gates and Oprah can collect Social Security.  Genius.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:41 | 3439496 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Warren invests in china
Gates invests in India
Oprah invests in Africa

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:37 | 3439721 prains
prains's picture

America invests in China


wait... no Iraq

err.. Taiwan??

no... Mexico

that can't be right....

it invests with Goldman Sachs.....right

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 02:05 | 3439760 cherry picker
cherry picker's picture

We don't "owe" them anything.  They have good salaries and they accepted the jobs knowing what they were getting into.  People want to be fireman and cops, at least some of them.

Paying them more than twice for their labors is rediculous.


There are others out there who risk their lives, people who drive over frozen lakes to transport goods for example.  I wonder what kind of pensions they get?

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 08:21 | 3440074 Watauga
Watauga's picture

I would suggest that ZH posters reduce the emotion in this discussion and increase the reason. 

Any government employee who entered service under a particular pay/benefits/pension system must receive the "benefit of his bargain" with the local, State, or federal government with whom he bargained.  If "the people" wish to change any particular system of pay/benefits/pensions, they should either persuade their representatives to make the change or elect representatives who will make the change.  Anything less than orderly decisionmaking and execution of this exchange of work-for-pay/benefits/pensions is either tyranny or anarchy.

So, the police, firefighters, soldiers, marines, sailors, airmen, federal employees, state employees, and local employees, including teachers, all took positions in government based upon a particular system of pay/benefits/pensions.  They chose to take their positions based on a rational calculation that it was in their best interests.  They "bargained" for their positions based upon expecations created by contract.  YOUR representatives, at all levels of government, and in every branch of government, made the bargain FOR YOU.  Now, the workers, the representatives, and YOU have to abide by the bargain.

The only rational way out of this is to change the bargain for FUTURE employees.  For example, the government that represents YOU will eliminate the retirement penions of all police and firefighters in city X.  YOU elected people to do this for you.  When dregs and buffoons fail to show up at your house on fire, you can blame yourselves.  But you will have created a new bargain and yes, all parties abide by it. 

This is how rational government works.  Irrational government results in tyranny or anarchy.  These, of course, mean death. 

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 10:28 | 3440563 stewie
stewie's picture

How about the "bargin" the founding fathers made through the constitution?

How about the "bargin" Cyprus depositors made with the banks?

How about the "bargain" MF Global made with it's Corzined depositors?

How about (insert any of countless injustices performed by bankovernments here)


Rational Governments?!  Get real W!  They change rules on a whim and don't give two fifth of fukc all about anybody but themselves.  Contract law is applied to the masses and gleefully pissed on by the connected ones. 


Fri, 04/12/2013 - 17:05 | 3442886 ebear
ebear's picture

"There are others out there who risk their lives, people who drive over frozen lakes to transport goods for example.  I wonder what kind of pensions they get?"

None, but they do get residuals from the reality shows they make about it, so there's that.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:26 | 3439702 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

WHERE do ya think all that simulus munny went? (Hint: State employee pension funds)

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:39 | 3439725 prains
prains's picture

Hint: Fuck knob



Fri, 04/12/2013 - 05:31 | 3439898 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

No that was TARP, the bulk of the stimulus spending (ARRA) went to the only shovel-ready job Barry could find, keeping his shit-shovelers on the public dole.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:37 | 3439485 THECOMINGDEPRESSION
THECOMINGDEPRESSION's picture of 8:36 Pacific time..bitcoins is down again..

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:43 | 3439736 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

a bit like Pan Am's 'negative profit'...

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:48 | 3439509 bnbdnb
bnbdnb's picture

Except you run up the credit card balance, and then when the card is adjusted hand it to your neighbors sixteen year old, letting them know they can buy whatever they want with the remaining balance that always moves up, as long as they pay the current balance.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:32 | 3438971 westboundnup
westboundnup's picture

I have spent several years trying to figure out where my Rubicon is. Touching my retirement savings is it.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:45 | 3439038 Oquities
Oquities's picture

aint no such thing as savings any more

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 02:21 | 3439770 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

"I have spent several years trying to figure out where my Rubicon is."

I'm a Catholic, so that's a sin for me.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:13 | 3439114 BandGap
BandGap's picture

They already are devaluing it.

Every American has a right to retire, the powers that distribute might think you have too much. Dear Leader has stated that anything over 3 million is too much.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:41 | 3439183 spinone
spinone's picture

Its already gone, you just don't know it yet. 

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:34 | 3439473 brettd
brettd's picture

So when "they" cross the rubicon, what are you going to do?

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 05:58 | 3439909 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Nothing of course. All the guns and ammo will stay locked in safes while we get digitally raped.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:34 | 3438976 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Your kids and grandkids won't know what a "retirement", much less "retirement savings", is. Count your blessings.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:46 | 3439022 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

my wife-bless her heart-asked the other night if I fear for our young children's future after one of my rants-I tell her that every day that this BS continues I have more hope for their future because by the time they are old enough this whole rotten structure will have collapsed

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:55 | 3439233 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

The question is - what does that collapse look like and how long will it last? And as a follow-up, what system will emerge? Under what conditions will our children live in the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years? These are the things that trouble me.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:07 | 3439283 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture


Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:02 | 3439419 TheSilverJournal
TheSilverJournal's picture

The world fiat monetary ponzi collapse will come in a crackup boom hyperinfationary form. You can see it already. So much currency is being created that it's driving both bonds and equities up at the same time. The further negative bond yields are driven, the more pressure there will be to get out of bonds, so the more the Fed must print in order to keep yields moving lower. I give it 3 to 15 months.

What monetary and political system will follow is TBD. Worst case scenario is that when the cries for government to "help" after fiat collapse, the government answers those cries with a full out socialist squeeze of which humanity may never recover. The best case is that free markets and free banking are turned to and the federal government because a small fraction of its current relevance, leading to sharp pain which could be followed by a boom to the likes that are almost unimageinable.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:23 | 3439329 ekm
ekm's picture

A lot faster than that, give it 5 or 7 years

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 00:23 | 3439595 ultimate warrior
ultimate warrior's picture

I hope that is when us zhedgers come in & pick up the pieces. We are the future if we like it or not. I'm only 29 but I know when time comes I'll have to do what is necessary to help my community. If that means bartering with AU & AG, or supplying weapons & ammo, or teaching kids how to grow a garden so be it. We are many and I have faith we will overcome whatever challenges are in front of us.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 00:40 | 3439636 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

That's why you should insure your 2nd Amendment rights now... while you are still able.  Speak up at every  opportunity or you won't have the power to "do what is necessary".

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:28 | 3439706 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Lord, deliver us from Evil!  All you can do at this point is pray.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 03:05 | 3439803 Rip van Wrinkle
Rip van Wrinkle's picture

My wife just tells me shut the f*ck up when I have one of my rants.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 05:59 | 3439910 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

There won't be a collapse in the sense you describe. There will be a collapse for many, but not for all. Better to stay poor and out of debt in the NWO.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:48 | 3439516 bnbdnb
bnbdnb's picture

Retirement will become completely taboo. You won't need it. Housing, food, clothing and water will be shipped right to your door. And that is all you will ever get.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 02:57 | 3439798 Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

Retirement savings are now just a thing of the past

"Children just aren't going to know what retirement savings is," he said.
David Parker, at the Hadley Centre for retirement savings Prediction and Research in Berkshire, says ultimately, British children could have only virtual experience of retirement savings. Via the internet, they might wonder at retirement savings scenes - or eventually "feel" virtual retirement savings.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:34 | 3438983 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I won't stand around and watch the teachers and cops etc by me take a hit to their 125k/yr pensions at age 53 (many of which are tax free due to "disability") and free healthcare for life! They earned that! Their contract that the guy they elected put in place for them is rock solid and is not up for negotiation!

"China's central bank will also continue to buy treasuries".

 Well WTF with this one? Two articles ago I just read that China is absolutely not buying who is full of shit here?


Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:40 | 3439005 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

LE goon squad for TPTB will be the last to lose their fat pensions. why do you you think they are better outfitted for war than the US Army?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:44 | 3439035 Croesus
Croesus's picture

Well, maybe DotGov should take the money out of Wall Street, and create an electronic currency. This currency could trade P2P, and be completely decentralized, and encrypted. Maybe an anonymous programmer, working under a pseudonym could help design it.

The question is tho, what would we call it?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:28 | 3439156 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

Aether Investment Rubicon or AIR for short.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 00:57 | 3439664 The Heart
The Heart's picture

Call it bitcoin2.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:48 | 3439048 Oquities
Oquities's picture

the fed buys the fake treasuries with fake $ digits like a dog eating another dog's fresh pile - china is not really needed - ask japan

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:38 | 3439175 Stanley Lord
Stanley Lord's picture

Exactly, I have no use for these intellectuals.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:47 | 3439508 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Only 125k?

Look at pensions of their bosses... Police chiefs and superintendents get double that

Then look at Wall Street

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:35 | 3438987 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Reinhart and Rogoff are the bombs.

They were working on this since don't know when, but 2011 is sufficient advance warning.

And, I admit here, when I am all over Havhad for being the "World's MOST PERFECT University"tm, I include neither of these perfessors.

- Ned

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:59 | 3439243 Capitalist
Capitalist's picture

Yeah I just realised this is the Reinhart of Reinhart and Rogoff fame with all their analysis of sovereign debt.

She's 100% right.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:07 | 3439281 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

I don't know where Carmen Reinhardt sits today.  When that book was written, Rogof was at Harvard, and Reinhart was at the University of Maryland.  I suspect that neither have moved.

I live in Washinton.  I go down to the American Enterprise Institute frequently.  Carmen's husband, Vincent, was a fellow there while she was writing the book.  I went to hear her present there.  She couldn't make it so Vincent did the pitch.  Carmen's first slide said that when it comes to bailouts, YOU SHOULD NEVER DO ONE.

Carmen is more than OK in my book. 

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:54 | 3439532 IamtheREALmario
IamtheREALmario's picture

Obama said a lot of things too. He lied. Their type always lies to take advantage of you.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 03:17 | 3439813 Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

Thank You for the link, allready reading, the beauty of a Kindle edition one click order

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:37 | 3438994 Unprepared
Unprepared's picture

Carmen is a terrorist. Why should anyone listen to her?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:48 | 3439044 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

She's at Havhad, dahlingk, and she's interviewed in that Cherman rag.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 06:36 | 3439938 spankfish
spankfish's picture

9... 9... 9...

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:37 | 3438997 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Is it me or if you get your stock market to rise 15% a year, the pensions stay funded and everyone gets paid, but in confetti?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:42 | 3439019 Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

Yes, and after the party is over you can buy said confetti on Ebay as souveniers of the good times!

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:15 | 3439323 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

No.  It won't be enough to save them, even at that.  They are struggling to make the numbers work even with an assumed 8% CAGR (no down years ever).  Even if the stock market miraculously plays ball they can't put all their money in it.  A bunch of it has to go into nice, "safe" fixed income stuff..... the stuff that financial repression hammers on renlentlessly.  Matching of maturites to liabilities and all that happy horseshit that pension funds play.

Pension funds are fucked- even the ones that appear to be adequately funded at present.  Enjoy the $200K/yr. pension payouts while you can, if you're lucky enough to have one.  It won't last your lifetime, especially if you retire at 53.

Social Security is what will pay out 100% in nominal terms but decline precipitously in real terms because the government owns a printing press.  Most others that have a DB pension with an organization that does not own a printing press are basically a bug flying over the highway- a matter of when, not if, they go "splat" on a windshield.

Watch the Stockton, CA bankruptcy.  And realize that even after the courts weigh in (either direction, because court decisions are basically just random number generators) IT AIN'T OVER.  The courts may side with the pensions and it will appear they have won..... only to fall apart (quietly and with little media coverage) a few short years later.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:39 | 3439003 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture
Jim Rogers: “I Suspect They’ll Take The Pension Plans Next..."

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:01 | 3439066 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

4 mins in. Jim Rogers is my hero.

I smell that video being the next link up tonight. That is a big deal.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:33 | 3439165 Croesus
Croesus's picture

He's not really telling any great secrets.....Teresa Ghilarducci proposed GRA's back in 2008....Al Gore seized on it, too: (that was where your private retirement wealth would be taken, and DotGov would "give" you a check every month....basically another Social Security scam....where they could take the money and add it to the general fund.....)

(Read the section "Pension Reform Advocate").

Whether it's to finance a deficit, or prop up a failing bank, your money is NOT yours. And the DotGov needs it! So, BOHICA for us, all in the name of "The Greater Good" </sarc>

Here's the BOTTOM LINE, when it comes to DotGov and your money:

"Listen, and understand. That DotGov is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."

(After you're dead, it will harass your next of kin, trying to get more of your blood that you already paid taxes on once).

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:34 | 3439172 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Teresa should stick with what she knows. Let's pimp her link so maybe she will stay focused.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:43 | 3439191 Croesus
Croesus's picture

@ Fonz:

I'd rather just pimp her ass out on the corner the old-fashioned way. She's so concerned about my ability to retire, I figure she can help out......

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:51 | 3439217 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Croesus she is another person whom when we go mad max and chaos reigns, if I happen to catch on the street, i'd like to pull her aside and politely explain my general disagreeance with her.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:14 | 3439302 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1 for "disagreeance"...

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:23 | 3439327 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

lotta vino this evening

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 09:02 | 3440239 The Navigator
The Navigator's picture

Vino or no vino, I LIKE this new word - descriptive and minimalist.

Besides, it should cause another rant by Steve in Greensboro.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:10 | 3439105 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

I like JR but how can he say that IRAs haven't been doing that well the last few years-I thought the whole point of this print-a-thon is to make the market go higher and make people feel more wealthy and fueling more consumption?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:15 | 3439121 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

He agrees with you Otto. He just thinks it ends badly, and when it does, he amazingly had the balls to say what no one else in the msm does. I like JR, but I was astonished he had the cajones to come out and say it. I think Kyle Bass etc. have been muzzled. Maybe because he lives in Singapore or something he does not give a crap.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:42 | 3439015 Steve in Greensboro
Steve in Greensboro's picture

To be a commenter on ZH, is it a requirement that one be unable to write a coherent sentence? Or is it just a thing?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:45 | 3439031 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I just cancelled my vacation to Greensboro.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:48 | 3439049 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Steve, it is like Charles Barkley, who was mis-quoted in his own autobiography. - Ned

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:49 | 3439050 Prairie Dog
Prairie Dog's picture

It is difficult for people who are very angry to be articulate. Anti-psychotic drugs also have an effect on communication skills. Have some compassion, will you.


Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:00 | 3439248 gtb
gtb's picture


Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:52 | 3439059 Croesus
Croesus's picture

@ Steve in Greensboro:

I are talking about what you have no idea.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:13 | 3439109 Burr's 2nd Shot
Burr&#039;s 2nd Shot's picture

$80k in student loans for an English degree so you can troll ZH? Or are you a self-made arrogant asshole?

Praytell, what is the coherent message you wish to share with us? The pensioners are at risk due to spelling errors and subject-verb disagreements? Faith-based economics create unending wealth and prosperity due to superior rhetorical skills?

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 00:25 | 3439597 saints51
saints51's picture

I had to google most of the words in your post.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:54 | 3439397 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Steve in Greensboro asked:

To be a commenter on ZH, is it a requirement that one be unable to write a coherent sentence? Or is it just a thing?

Somehow that is very something.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:28 | 3439460 akak
akak's picture

It is indeed that, also is very crusty.

One could hope for more, but expect less.  It is all in the making, surely.

Now is not the time for false praise.  The 'american' thing will win out every time.  Parangongs of US citizenism can not contradick their eternal nature.

Welcome to the future, 'american' style.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:43 | 3439735 prains
prains's picture

sweet baby jesus akak you're starting to sound like An......we cannot speak his name

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 03:29 | 3439827 Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

@Steve in Greensboro

Yes, it's just a thing

A coherent sentence are now just a thing of the past

"Children just aren't going to know what a coherent sentence is," he said

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 05:00 | 3439884 flyingpigg
flyingpigg's picture

Hey Greensboro dude, do you expect coherent sentences from soneone who can't even spell piig right?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:48 | 3439046 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

Rule number ONE...creditors always get screwed. This is usually pensioners. They have little power and hold the bonds and pensions which have already been spent unproductively. See When Money Dies (or any book about debt). Younger folks can bounce back. Pensioners receive their money nominally but they don't get the life they planned for unless they got out of the system. Some few will get some money into gold or foreign currencies (but this time around there are none.) Equities loose 50% of their purchasing power in severe inflation. 

This story is as old as man. It happens with fiat, hard money etc. Ultimately debt build up (because who doesn't like to spend today what would take you years to earn) kills monetary systems. We are seeing thwe same scenario we saw with assignats, Reichmarks and Zim dollars. The PTB certainly know this (though I am not convinced that many politicians really understand). What would you do if you a leader and as a citizen?....better prepare then. 

The finale could come quickly. It does not necessarily drag out as it seems it should. Comex failure ...bam! dollar goes to zero (or close versus gold), imports rise in cost, oil demands solid payment, trade must balance or gold must exchange.

Very fascinating and frightening times.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:23 | 3439140 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Yeah but this one "ain't like the others." first the banks get bailed, next they get zero percent financing, finally they get paid for their...are they deposits? No, sorry..."excess reserves" simply by locating it trillions?..."at the Reserve Bank (sic.)" so now...If I'm Rahmbo of Evanston Illinois do I have to ask permission to hire lifeguards this summer? That REALLY doesn't sound like a "pension problem" to me but something more......immediate. We know for a fact some municipalities are now simply declaring bankruptcy....hmmm. "that doesn't sound pension negative." Pension FUND negative maybe...but "those retirees are now protected" are they not? And what is "odious debt" again? And does the bank even care? "no better money than fresh money." plus "you always wanted to live there honey." again I'm still trying to figure this QE thingy out. It might sound like a solution to "everything"...but something tells me "there's a control mechanism built into that thing that makes sure the House always wins."

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:38 | 3439176 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

It happens because people not even capable of running their own lives are chosen by morons to run a country.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:56 | 3439237 Croesus
Croesus's picture

+ 85,000,000,000 (each month).

Ain't that the truth.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 23:03 | 3439417 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Yeah when O Muslim was "elected" through vote theft (twice) and fake RINO opponents - I knew the elderly were screwed.   I knew the USA was headed for what happened to the USSR.  Old pensioners would eventually be ruined in the USA like the old USSR.

The young RUssians fared better but they are also less feral than young Americans of today.  The old people in the USA are screwed.  Baby Boomers will get their final comeupance and their idiot kids who voted O will never get the money mom and dad had.  I pity the people who voted against the islamic.

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 03:24 | 3439820 uno
uno's picture

"the elderly screwed"

Yes that is 100% the plan, any needed surgeries or medical procedures are not approved now, but they get pain management until they cheaply, quicky and quietly die off.  Gutting the Social Security payments and massive food inflation is another way of implementing the grand plan.

Then the war on newborns, pushing to allow abortions up to 3 years old, vaccines, GMO's and the utopian single idiot mom model for child development.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:51 | 3439058 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

Inflation favors the debtor and if that entity has the presses, they are going to run them. This is hardly rocket science.


To get elected, promise the people something for nothing and then pay for it with debt whose future value you debase. Pretty simple.


Here's a harder question: when are the Japanese going to start really buying pm's??? After what their own government has done to the savers I doubt they will be buying our treasuries. After what has gone on in their stock market for the past few decades, I also doubt they will be buying any equities....ditto real estate.


So they cannot just sit in Yen and the only option left are the pm's. AND they are the world's third or fourth largest economy. Surprising the gold and silver markets have not moved given this certainty.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:32 | 3439168 new game
new game's picture

very good thought. we will probably find out after the fact, but the gold available is getting very tight in supply-tonage that is.

very secretive game out there and lots of energies put forth to determine(sprout).  darthgold complex syndrom.

some availible in cyprus, but my guess is that is the next way these crisses reveal their fate...

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 20:59 | 3439079 Bingfa
Bingfa's picture

The Hacker who claims he can crash your plane....

"You can use this system to modify approximately everything related to the navigation of the plane... that includes a lot of nasty things"


Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:23 | 3439141 sabra1
sabra1's picture

Maybe he could try it on Air Farce 1?

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 06:06 | 3439916 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

And 2, don't forget 2.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:00 | 3439081 BruntFCA
BruntFCA's picture

So I almost fell of my chair when I read, " central banks have become subservient to governments."

Guess she needs to pass on the Newsflash to the Greek and Cypriots.

If governments really were sovereign, why in the hell would they borrow their own currency into existence from banks in the first place?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:06 | 3439094 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Ah...because they won't get that new in-ground swimming pool kickback?

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:45 | 3439202 Leto II
Leto II's picture

"central banks have become subservient to governments."

just like the dealer is subservient to the addict

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 01:15 | 3439695 pbppbp
pbppbp's picture



Me too. I wrote that I thought she got that backwards...

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 05:33 | 3439895 Disenchanted
Disenchanted's picture

Thank you Brunt! I can't believe that it wasn't until the 2nd page of replies that someone mentioned it:


"central banks have become subservient to governments."


Around here we'd call that bassakwards...


edit: correction, it's page 3 on my display.



Fri, 04/12/2013 - 05:43 | 3439904 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The Central Bank of Cyprus is a member bank of the ECB, just as the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond is a member the Satanic Cult that gathers at Marriner Eccles, the "government" that it would be subservient to is the one in Brussels, Berlin & DC, not the one in Nicosia or Richmond. 

Fri, 04/12/2013 - 09:07 | 3440263 The Navigator
The Navigator's picture

"If governments really were sovereign, why in the hell would they borrow their own currency into existence from banks in the first place?"

Good question - Let's ask JFK and A. Lincoln

and any other leader that went against the Central Bank.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:04 | 3439090 MrBoompi
MrBoompi's picture

Yes..please,please Mr Government man. Please make me create money out of thin air and lend it to you at interest! I really don't want to take all that money...I really don't.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:22 | 3439130 ekm
ekm's picture

Ok, how about now? Are you guys going to believe me when I say that Benny is just an order taker?


Get used to it. The Fed can ADVISE AND EXECUTE.

The Fed can't decide about anything. Decision is made somewhere else.


Legally Benny's bosses are the President and the House Leader. Since both of them spend most of their time golfing, it shows that those guys who occupy those positions now have zero handle on these issues, hence somebody else is making decisions and Obama and Boehner are simply making golfing decisions.

To put it midly, both Obama and Boehner are simply 'taking a leak'.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:25 | 3439151 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

ekm I tried to get Mcmolotov to move into my area but he seems hesitant to jump into my local housing recovery. For just 300k you can move south and we can debate at the local saloon together. Only 12k/yr taxes!

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:28 | 3439157 ekm
ekm's picture

I can't stop laughing...........

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:31 | 3439163 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I borrowed this from an above link. Go to 4 mins in.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:40 | 3439187 ekm
ekm's picture

Possible, anything is possible, however nothing occurs as per plan, nothing.


Human beings have free wills. Same as with Grillo or Berlusconi, somebody will change his mind, some crazy mind will do something, nobody knows what's going to happen, regardless of any template.


There is this tremendously wrong thinking that elite are all united to screw us. It's quite far from the truth.

Elite infighting is a lot worse than we could even imagine, since it happens mostly in the shadows, but sometimes spills out in the open like Ackman and Icahn or the civil war inside JPM to remove Dimon.

The results of such infighting are not predictable since such elite infighting is the UNKNOWN UNKNOWN.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:48 | 3439209 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

human beings are born with free wills. That's about as far as I go with that.

Whether the elites are all united to screw us, or we just happen to be collateral damage makes no difference to me. The end result is the same.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:51 | 3439215 ekm
ekm's picture

I am getting bombarded with ads about russian brides. Do you know anything about it ;)

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:51 | 3439221 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

No, but I am regretting I did not take a closer look at the Ukrainian's first!

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:54 | 3439225 ekm
ekm's picture


Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:50 | 3439219 Bingfa
Bingfa's picture

They're methodical

Nothing, I repeat nothing can beat a methodical man...

They're already 3 steps into the next move, your/we just starting to figure out their moves from last month/year

It's a chess board we can't see

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:52 | 3439220 ekm
ekm's picture

There's nothing new under the sun. Read history and nothing actual seems strange.

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 21:59 | 3439249 Bingfa
Bingfa's picture

Oh I don't know, My wife travels a lot, and works for many large corporations

Every day she tells me things that I could never have imagined, I think we're about to make some new history

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 22:04 | 3439257 ekm
ekm's picture

Share some stories with us, anything that seemed strange from what she said.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!