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Gold And Silver Physical Market And Inventory Update From The Source: "In A Word, Ugly"

Tyler Durden's picture


By now everyone and their kitchen sink has speculated on what caused the great precious waterfall which started on April 12 and continued for the next four days. The factual reason for the biggest gold down days in history will likely remain unknown. In fact, in a sea of unfounded opinions, the only thing missing so far has been an informed opinion on what is really happening in some market - be it the paper of physical, especially in the aftermath of the unprecedented scramble to buy physical, not paper, gold and silver. So to avoid further speculation, and focusing on fact, here is what the CEO of Texas Precious Metals has to say about the state of the actual physical market, not the one where one can create "gold" and "silver" out of thin air. The bottom line? "The physical silver market is, in a word, ugly" and more importantly, "Last week, we turned away business in excess of 100,000 ozs of silver because of stock depletion." Botton line: please keep selling your paper metals - the demand in the physical space has never been greater, and is absorbing all the available inventory at current prices.

From Texas Precious Metals

Inventory Update

Update, 4/22/13:

Dear TexMetals Customers:

As you all know, it has been a remarkable (and historic) week in the metals market, with metals prices falling precipitously. In the past two weeks, we have sold over 350,000 ozs of silver and 11,000 ozs of gold, which (as you can tell from our website) has placed an enormous strain on inventory levels, not to mention our loyal staff. As of today, we are completely sold out of silver. The purpose of this letter is to update you on inventory levels and the state of the physical market from our vantage point.

First of all, as our faithful customers know, we are the only bullion dealer in the country that promises to ship orders no later than three (3) business days from receipt of payment*. Our motto is: "If we don't have it, we don't sell it." Or, as one of our traders likes to put it: "we sell metal, not promises." Our business philosophy is strict and logistically quite difficult given the high security of bullion transport and packaging. We firmly believe in the importance of expedited order processing because of the high level of trust our customers place in our company. We are an anomaly in the industry, and we are proud of it.

Before I comment on the state of the market, I want to extend a tremendous debt of gratitude to our vault and shipping staff, who continue to pull 18-hour days (working through the weekends) to meet our commitments to customers. Given the sheer volume of orders, most orders are now shipping on day #3 from payment date, but we are extremely proud to report that, as a company, there have been no logistical disruptions of any major significance. Way to go staff!

The physical silver market is, in a word, ugly. There is no telling at this point when mint inventories will return to normal, but you can be sure it will not happen within the next 8 weeks. Most dealers, at this point, are selling their current customer demand forward, meaning they are selling product they do not presently have, expecting to pull from future mint allocations. Consequently, future allocations will face pressure from today's demand. It is not my intent here to comment on the business practices of other companies, but I will say that no one can possibly predict future allocations at the time. The US mint, for example, releases its allocations weekly, and until then, dealers have no insight into allocation levels. Last week, we turned away business in excess of 100,000 ozs of silver because of stock depletion. However, we stand by the notion that it is better to lose a sale than lose a customer by delaying delivery two months (or more).

Here is what we know about future inventories:

US MINT: Like most government institutions, the US Mint is highly unreliable. This week, we will take delivery of only 13,000 silver eagles. These coins will post for sale on Tuesday, April 23rd, at 8am CST, and ship as early as Friday**. On the week of April 29th, we will offer a minimum of 21,000 silver eagles, which will also post for sale on the Tuesday of the week. Subsequently, based on corporate agreements, minimum weekly allocations will not dip below 20,000 coins. Unfortunately, due to the extreme supply/demand constraints imposed on our business by the shortage of product, we will be offering eagles in monster box form (500 coins) only until allocations exceed demand. Coin premiums will be higher than normal, but our aim is to keep these premiums as far below market rate as possible.

On gold, there is some tightness in the Gold Buffalo series, but as of the writing of this message, Eagles are in fair supply.

CANADIAN MINT: As mentioned in an earlier posting, the Canadian Mint has been under pressure to meet demand because of the small eagles allocations and because of the minting disruption caused by the Wildlife Series last month. It will be weeks before the mint catches up to demand. We will receive, at a minimum, 10,000 silver maples weekly until allocations return to normal. Depending on logistics concerns, these will post either Tuesday or Wednesday on a first come, first serve basis. Like the eagles, we will be offering maples in monster box form only until allocations exceed demand.

We have large orders in place now for 100 oz RCM bars (1-2 weeks out).

On gold, the Canadian Mint is behind on its production of gold maples, but we expect to have more in stock Thursday or Friday of this week.

PERTH MINT: The Perth Mint is the only government mint (Australia) that runs its operation like a business. It is one of the primary reasons we promote Perth so heavily. The Perth Mint has swiftly and dramatically increased production to meet demand, and therefore supplies of Perth Mint 1 oz and 10 oz bars, as well as Kangaroos, are in very large supply. We have at least two gold shipments due to arrive this week. If there are any supply constraints, it may appear on fractional gold coins, but it will be only a temporary disruption.

The Perth Mint, unlike the USM and RCM, does not produce a silver monster box. However, we have 15,000 ozs of 10 oz Kookaburra and Kilo Koala coins due to arrive on Tuesday, April 29th.

TEXAS ROUNDS: We sold out of all 50,000 Texas Rounds from our initial mint run in four (4) days. We have another 25,000-30,000 rounds being minted this week, and subsequent runs will continue every other week indefinitely.

MISCELLANEOUS: We have large orders in place with Golden State Mint for buffalo rounds and 1 oz silver bars due to arrive in the next two weeks. The junk silver market for 90% coins is completely depleted, and we are only able to source supply at the present time from customers selling back to us (which are few). We have orders in place for 10 oz NTR bars which we anticipate receiving next week.

We are restocking gold in the next two days, and slowly restocking silver over the course of the next 7-10 days. Be advised that, in some cases, we are selling product faster than we can keep it in stock. Please be patient with our staff if we sell out of the product you want. I reiterate: "If we don't have, we don't sell it."

In conclusion, some have asked me the question: "How can I take advantage of silver at these low prices if you are out of stock on everything?" My only suggestion would apply to those with some trading experience. One option is to buy SLV or Silver Contracts for a short interval at the price point you want, and then sell that position the moment we have physical supply to sell. In this way, you can lock in your spot and buy yourself time until the physical market offers your product.

I would like to personally thank all of our loyal customers for helping us become the fastest growing bullion dealer in North America.


Jason Kaspar,
CEO, Texas Precious Metals

h/t Eric


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Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:24 | 3484095 fightthepower
fightthepower's picture

Buy low!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:31 | 3484124 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Walked into my local coin shop last week, they had NO silver coins, seven 10oz silver bars at 11.5% premium and 90% silver at 17% premium.

This is a store that has been there for 50 years!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:37 | 3484153 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

I love a good mystery/conspiracy like most ZedHeds...but instead of focusing on the 'why' in this about the 'why not' buy some more? :)


Oh, i know why not...because their is hardly any stock left.:)

In my neck of the woods in GTA...

4 week delivery for some fractional Au


Ag page doesnt even load up = nothing left

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:40 | 3484176 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

All I know is that the good and silver charts keep going down down down. If prices have fallen this much, it stands to reason that they will go down further. Silver has almost fallen to fair value at 18 dollars an ounce just as I predicted, but that by no means implies that it can't fall much further.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:41 | 3484184 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

"Silver will go down, because silver has gone down".

I also recall you stating a few weeks ago that the Dow will go up because the Dow has gone up recently.

Such genius!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:49 | 3484220 flacon
flacon's picture

Putting the RARE in Rare Earth Metals (gold and silver). It's about time that these RARE precious metals become scarce

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:53 | 3484556 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Has it really become so scarce?  Who's hoarding?  Certainly not Cyprus.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:16 | 3484715 AllThatGlitters
AllThatGlitters's picture

You can still buy 10 Ounce Bars for a reasonable premium:

That page has live charts and shows dealers with reasonable premiums on inventory that is currently in stock.

You can also buy Austrian Philharmonics for a lot less than Eagles, and they look a lot nicer than the Canadian Mapleleafs in my opinion.


Mon, 04/22/2013 - 15:05 | 3484960 augustusgloop
augustusgloop's picture

exactly - depends what you are buying: JMBULL ships silver eaglest 10-15 days after receiving payment. Silver eagle is still $29+ for smaller quantities. 

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 16:12 | 3485236 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


Andrew Maguire today on physical demand for gold:

" So you’ve reached a point where the lines cross, and the physical market diverges.  I have checked the numbers now and we are very close to 1,000 tons of deliveries just this year into Shanghai. 

That does not account for the 25 tons we are seeing everyday through London.  And that does not account for what is being directly purchased through producers.  So there comes a point where you get such a discount that this demand increases exponentially.  And we are not just seeing the central banks and the sovereigns coming in,  we are also seeing some very smart money, I’m talking investment money, coming in (to the gold market as well). "

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 17:47 | 3485586 Cacete de Ouro
Cacete de Ouro's picture

Maguire needs to put all his data on a web site or similar. And let others analyse it. Without that, its just a set of claims, however true they may or may not be.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 20:19 | 3486068 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Is there anyone out there tracking premiums for physical over paper spot?  Take an average of the top twenty web dealers in stock inventory prices to get a fair avg. cost and compare to daily close.  That would track the disconnect between paper and physical. 

Wed, 04/24/2013 - 15:43 | 3494199 bitgroin
bitgroin's picture

That's what Assange says, not just about Maguire, but about all commentary and journalism. Then talk would be revealed as cheaper than Apple stock.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:50 | 3484225 troublesum
troublesum's picture

Is it me or has MBD gotten lazy in his sarc posts. Used to be so much more elgant and thought out. Like a mini sub story with a plot as to why the opposite of what you should do is the right thing to do.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:15 | 3484350 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

trouble,...every dick becomes useless as time passes......

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:16 | 3484351 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

MDB has interns posting for him now and they are still polishing up their dry humor. MDB had to do this as he has a part time job now! Hes giving Krugman his baths in the evenings.

Why you ask, beacuse Krugman's mom is getting on and is to weak to give him his bath anymore. See, they are showing us that thier economic plan is working and helping the recovery.    

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:46 | 3484529 BeepBeepImAJeep
BeepBeepImAJeep's picture

As long as he's getting minimum wage!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 15:08 | 3484970 AvoidingTaxation
AvoidingTaxation's picture

MDB is a Pentagon franchise.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:53 | 3484232 draug
draug's picture

I'm really wondering how much of the paper gold is really "there", and how much of it is double counted, "owned" by several people at once, or simply doesn't exist at all. There's a lot of fraud in the financial industry, so why not in gold. Especially since several too-big-for-law-enforcement institutions are heavily involved in the gold market (including governments and central banks) who all can get away with murder in broad daylight at this point.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:00 | 3484268 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

We'll find out in a few days.  Long popcorn.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:03 | 3484284 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Its not double counted, its counted (and been sold) 10 times over.

Pension funds, hedge funds, trusting old people, have all told banks "Its ok, you can hold the gold for me, I trust you".  Some of them are wising up, and seeing what happens if they actually ask for their gold.  The answer so far, they get their gold.  But the truth behind the scenes is a little different.  More along the lines of "lets do WHATEVER THE FUCK we can to discourage people from demanding physical delivery.  Lets move the price of gold down by 7 standard deviations!  That'll show people!"

Except it didn't work.  Most people who own gold are used to this shit, the sheeple who are frightened by it have sold their gold (earrings, rings and necklaces) a long time ago.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:28 | 3484435 Hulk
Hulk's picture

The comex is levered greater than 30 to 1

See Kyle Bass's comment on this at 42 minutes in (nov 2011)

The comex believes that price will settle everything, hence last weeks action...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:15 | 3484709 Thisson
Thisson's picture

You are completely misrepresenting how the market works.  It's like complaining that a craps table has 20 people around it all betting, but that there's only 1 pair of dice.  The commodities futures markets are CASH SETTLED.  Yes, you can stand for physical delivery, but this is based upon a Contract - which is another word for an exchange of promises.  The remedy for a breach of contract of this type is MONEY DAMAGES, not specific performance (delivery of physical).  The futures market is a price hedging mechanism, not a guarantee of physical delivery.  All of this is FULLY disclosed.  It's important for people to understand how this works and read the documentation.  If you want physical, buy and hold physical.  For some market participants, it is more practical to rely upon promises, accepting the attendant risks.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:34 | 3484820 Hulk
Hulk's picture

My point is that it is highly levered, selling futures (and settting prices) for product that does not exist and cannot be delivered...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 16:40 | 3485385 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

43:12 in COMEX response: "price will solve everything"


Wed, 04/24/2013 - 17:27 | 3494648 gina distrusts gov
gina distrusts gov's picture

rely upon promises

Wish in one hand,,,,, spit it the other see which one gets full first

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:54 | 3484233 toys for tits
toys for tits's picture


Keep your eyes on the ass of that sheep in front of you.  It'll be the only way to know which way the herd is moving.

At least until the border collies show up.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:11 | 3484326 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

MDB used to be funnier... I miss that.

Locally (LCS), silver is sold out and gold is limited, FWIW.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:58 | 3484265 Badabing
Badabing's picture

"All I know is that the good and silver charts" ha ha what a dick

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:43 | 3484508 Duffminster
Duffminster's picture

For those seeking to understand how a gold default may have triggered the coordinated futures attack on gold, check here.  Remember, silver is also a lever to move gold and that was also attacked in my opinion.


Why the Western Banking Cartel’s Gold and Silver Price Slam Will Backfire – And How You Can Protect Yourself from the Inevitable Blowback
Mon, 04/22/2013 - 16:09 | 3485266 natty light
natty light's picture

AAPL will go down, because AAPL has gone down

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:16 | 3484186 espirit
espirit's picture

+1 Troll effort, MDB.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:43 | 3484195 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Your defenition of almost, is 22%?

Stupid in yet another way!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:46 | 3484209 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Good to see you again my friend. Haha...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:49 | 3484219 LynRobison
LynRobison's picture

"All I know is that..."

The irony is that you don't even know what little you claim to know.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:54 | 3484241 angel_of_joy
angel_of_joy's picture

You're getting lazy.

Lack of inspiration ??

-1 for today's effort...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:06 | 3484304 spentCartridge
spentCartridge's picture

Lots of folks 'go down further' when they have to, only the ones holding real money don't have to chew on so much meat a MDB?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:58 | 3484928 caimen garou
caimen garou's picture

go ahead million dollar asshole, the truth is in the physical demand!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:16 | 3484341 Canuckistan Al
Canuckistan Al's picture

Blotto: Go here:

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:25 | 3484393 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

20% premiums on rounds?  Did I calculate that correct?  Holy smokes........ no wonder they still have stock.


Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:36 | 3484480 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I think it's hysterical that miners are being forced to sell at these prices.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 15:16 | 3485003 au_bayitch
au_bayitch's picture

IF the pog is below their cost of mining it, they could buy the futures and ask for delivery.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:44 | 3484874 Handyman
Handyman's picture

They want $31.50 for a Canadian Silver Wood Bison. They are $28.70 at Scotia Bank.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 16:15 | 3485293 Canadian Dirtlump
Canadian Dirtlump's picture

they have revolving stock, they were out of maples for a time last week, bisons and they are out of 1/2 ounce golden state mint round, 1 oz buffalos, libert a marks and some other one which escapes me. they have been selling the shit out of product too.


Their premiums only shot up last week. I use them often and their prices are typically very competitive. I have 2 tubes of buffalos ( they have been sold out since last monday ) on the way. I'm shocked they shipped them so quickly.


I eagerly await the US mint to update silver sales ( they are clearly lying about sales numbers) properly. Right now the gold silver sales ratio they report for the month is 17.5 to one LOL! IT has been consitently more like 40-50 to one.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:35 | 3484159 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

It's not quite that bad over here in Ole Blighty:

Record Orders!

Due to record orders we have had to set a temporary minimum order spend of £500. We are also unable to offer usual next day delivery. Orders will be dispatched ASAP in the order that funds are received. We expect to dispatch most orders within 1 week.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:22 | 3484388 pop goes the weasel
pop goes the weasel's picture

Dont buy from there, they are expensive. I use loads cheaper and have never waited over 5 days for a delivery

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:49 | 3484894 css1971
css1971's picture

Won't ship outside the UK.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:35 | 3484162 tsx500
tsx500's picture

ditto here in midwest... 21% premium on 1-oz AGE .... 16% on junk Ag ..... 5-6% on 1-oz Au

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 15:00 | 3484940 DosZap
DosZap's picture

I see no reason to buy AGE's, and pay the much higher prems.

I prefer IRA approved Ag, 1oz. rounds.More Ag for the buck.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:46 | 3484214 AmCockerSpaniel
AmCockerSpaniel's picture

Have any of you tried to Google Earth their address (look at the bottom of there web page 959 HWY 95N, Skiner, TX  77984

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:53 | 3484230 flacon
flacon's picture

Well it would help if you spelled the city correctly. For those interested, here's the proper address:


It looks like google has made a mistake. 

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:55 | 3484247 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Try one block south and across the street. In this case Google (Earth) is not your friend and not accurate.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:56 | 3484252 BC6
BC6's picture

Shiner, TX. Same town as where "Shiner" beer is made.


The town lies just north between San Antonio and Houston.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:07 | 3484314 BandGap
BandGap's picture

Shiner Bock is the best going.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:25 | 3484418 CrimsonAvenger
CrimsonAvenger's picture

I'll drink to that. My brother in law (in Austin) introduce me to it; I'm forever in his debt.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:58 | 3484574 Talleyrand
Talleyrand's picture

Can't beat Shiner Bock.

Can't beat TPM. I never bought any PMs, anywhere, but it is my understanding that they emailed this piece to all  their customers @ seven o'clock this morning. Thoughtful, or just good business practice?

"Like most government institutions, the US Mint is highly unreliable." These guys are solid.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 22:23 | 3486408 Blano
Blano's picture

Amen to that!! 

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:33 | 3484143 tsx500
tsx500's picture

hmmm....increasing premiums/decreased availability of physical time-proven real money (Au/Ag) ,  same situation with ammo ..... doesn't sound fishy to me at all !!  ;>0

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:53 | 3484235 Burt Gummer
Burt Gummer's picture

Went back to my LCS today. They are asking 10% premium over spot for fuckin' generic rounds. DAH FUQ?!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:27 | 3484777 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

I could have gone my entire life not knowing what the Harlem Shake was, but noooooo, you had to shop for the argent.


(My guys are also at ~10% for Highland Mint generics)

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:26 | 3484101 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Prices over spot?  Anyone deal with these guys before? - "In this way, you can lock in your spot and buy yourself time until the physical market offers your product." -  Comments like this crack me up.  Yes, well, what if the physical market can't offer you product until 2025?  Halarious.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:30 | 3484128 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Just another risk in a long list of risks in life.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:33 | 3484134 therover
therover's picture

You make a good point about locking in. I don't purchase unless there is stock available.

I have dealt with Texas Precious Metals and I have never had a problem. I am happy with their service and their prices for the most part. Turn around time is very good as well. Been using them for about 6-8 months now.

Was very interesting how more and more 'Out of Stock' text was being put under their silver products. Went from all ASE's out to the entire inventory.

At this point I have to look elsewhere for silver ( luckily my LCS has a bunch of ASE's but the preiums are high....still gonna buy some though).

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:39 | 3484177 BC6
BC6's picture

Same here. Solid order process, solid delivery. I mainly now only deal with Tex Precious.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:27 | 3484420 chubbar
chubbar's picture still has plenty of product, higher premiums of course, but I've never had a delivery problem with them. Just FYI if someone really needs product today.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:46 | 3484532 Talleyrand
Talleyrand's picture

APMEX, ASEs, "These items are on a slight delay. We expect to be able to ship these items by April 30th or sooner."

I expect I'll wait and see if TPM can get some on hand.  "...metal not promises....

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 15:41 | 3485107 Captain Benny
Captain Benny's picture

Plenty of inventory ... yeah right... 100% sold out of all 100oz bars.  They've already forward sold 1500 100 ounce bars in the last week.  Yeah, they're "stocked" alright... maybe in the distant future.... if you're lucky

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 16:41 | 3485402 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

How do you know they forward sold? 

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 17:15 | 3485509 Captain Benny
Captain Benny's picture

Its pretty amazingly simple: I ask "Do you have the 100oz bars in inventory?"  They answer "No, we will receive them next week or next month or in xx days."

If you ask today, they'll say "We are out of stock and cannot take orders on that item right now."


Mon, 04/22/2013 - 22:16 | 3485779 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Ok, but forward sold usually means selling future product. I thought you were saying they've taken orders for 1500 bars not yet in stock.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:33 | 3484147 printmemoney
printmemoney's picture

I've bought from them once.  It's actually a good deal because their premiums are very competitive with Tulving and you only need to order 6k. Plus, you can split your order to get to the 6k.  I think I got a 100oz silver bar and 2 oz of gold.  They delivered three days after my wire was processed.

As far as going through the futures market, phuck that!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:36 | 3484161 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Very satisfying to finally see the fraudulent markets coming apart.

looks like the 100th monkey has learned to wash his coconut...

The gig is about up, got Gold in hand Bitchez ???

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:20 | 3484740 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Prices over spot? Anyone deal with these guys before? - "In this way, you can lock in your spot and buy yourself time until the physical market offers your product." -


These folks do not take back orders and up front payments, read the article.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:26 | 3484102 Smuckers
Smuckers's picture

Aaaaand it's gone!


Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:46 | 3484215 silentboom
silentboom's picture

and the wheel says a bailout!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:25 | 3484103 Dagny Taggart
Dagny Taggart's picture

confirmation endorphins

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:26 | 3484104 ak_khanna
ak_khanna's picture

The price of precious metals fell because problem today is that the price of any commodity is not derived by it's physical demand or supply but more by the speculative positions standing long or short on the commodity exchange like any other traded commodity, stock or currency.

The basic mechanism of price discovery (based on demand and supply for actual use) of anything traded on an exchange has been terminally infected by speculators having access to unlimited funds and super fast computers for trading leading to volatile price swings. This has been made worse by the launch of ETFs for anything and everything under the sun by the financial community.

The price of everything including Gold is likely to suffer when the speculators unwind their positions due to some event that they have not anticipated or foreseen.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:36 | 3484164 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Oh, gee - it's the "speculators fault".

Fancy that. Never before have I encountered a situation in which the speculars were assigned the blame.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:43 | 3484193 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

There are 2 markets.  Physical, and paper.  His reference to the "speculators" means he's only talking about one side of the market, which is the corrupt, rehypothecated paper trading market.  My physical has not changed and is completely unaffected from this latest paper price smash.  I am willing to wait this out for a long time and, in fact, don't really care if the paper price goes to zero.  Look what happens when it falls only 20%?  No stock.

So referencing how corrupt the paper game is, is a waste of time.  We all know it.  Why anyone would trade it expecting to win is beyond me.


Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:45 | 3484208 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Yeah you're right, however I was merely commenting on that old nugget "it's the speculators fault" which is as old as markets themselves.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:02 | 3484285 SWCroaker
SWCroaker's picture

In past, the market regulators and government cry "speculation!".

In current reality, the market regulators and government are mute, which is huge clue that the "speculators" are in all likelihood Central Bank sloshing liquidity funded thugs.     Doing their patriotic duty for the good of all.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:02 | 3484283 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

People around the world are soon going to relearn a lesson that's been largely forgotten over the past 70 odd years about the difference between physical and paper, and why ultimately, physical availability determines price.  This has been remarkably distorted for a long time, so it's going to be a rude awakening for many.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:25 | 3484106 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Free gold bitchez! Paper will be trading at $500 but the actual physical will be $5,000.....or higher.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:29 | 3484122 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

In a word, ugly.  Proof positive beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:31 | 3484779 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Let's see... At $500/oz, that means I can take 20 oz/ person in travel group, w/o having to declare it for the $10,000 threshold. Nice for privacy.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:28 | 3484112 unwashedmass
unwashedmass's picture

SLV? excuse me, but......Harvey Organ has noted that the "inventory numbers" have not changed at all during this debacle. 

in other words, he says, there ain't no silver left standing behind SLV. its just a pile o' paper. 

the custodian in charge of this fraud? Who do you think? Three guesses. 

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:40 | 3484178 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture



For anyone not sure of this Alice in Wonderland scenario...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:46 | 3484213 Aguadulce
Aguadulce's picture

JT Marlin?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:27 | 3484113 Chief_Illiniwek
Chief_Illiniwek's picture

Long EXISTING dental work.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:43 | 3484191 What you talkin...
What you talkin about Willis's picture

I am a dental tech.   A doc that I work for recently was re carpeting his office.  Sent the carpet to the refiners, they sent him back 34 oz gold bars. 

Long dental office carpet. 

Short front office secretary cunt hairs please. 

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:21 | 3484386 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Nothing personal but I would trust a dentist with carpeting in either the operatory or the lab, gold wouldn't be the only thing caught and retained in the crumb-catcher flooring, and that's a really nasty thought right before dinner...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:21 | 3484357 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Try midnight gardening at the local cemetery...

A useful measuring stick for the sickening debasement of the USD.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:28 | 3484117 Ban KKiller
Ban KKiller's picture

STACKED! Thank you FED, and a hearty "fuck you". 

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:18 | 3484369 topshelfstuff
topshelfstuff's picture

""""""Thank you FED""""""

So, so True. If you take a moment and think about it, seriously, asking yourself "Where would Bernanke want the S&P, T-Bonds, Gold & Silver to can go back a month and ask, and that's exactly where we even 2-3, etc...months

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:28 | 3484119 PUD
PUD's picture

 Gold is usually mined in large open-pit mines. Open-pit mines are simply large holes in the ground rather than from tunnels in what we commonly think of as a mine. In an open-pit a deep pit is dug as layers of earth are scrapped away. These pits can alter the flow of rivers, disrupt underwater aquifers and water sources and create noise pollution while releasing dust and particulate matter into the atmosphere. It can also require roads, buildings and even whole towns be relocated. It also releases sulfuric acid, arsenic and copper, that can contaminate the water supply. (“Environmental impact of mining in the rainforest”, The ore that is removed from the open-pit is then 'roasted' – burned at very high temperatures. This process consumes a great deal of energy and releases many harmful compounds into the atmosphere. This process releases mercury into the atmosphere a very bad negative effect for the environment. (Rastogi, 2010) Next, the roasted material is doused with cyanide, another chemical that is damaging to the environment. This dousing process extracts the gold. However, the waste that results, known as tailings, is contaminated with many chemicals and very dangerous for the environment. According to The Washington Post, “Gold tailing ponds and piles are chock-full of contaminants such as arsenic, antimony, residual cyanide and mercury

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:32 | 3484137 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

RUUUUUUN! We're all gonna die!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:35 | 3484155 PUD
PUD's picture

That's a very stupid reply isn't it?  A rational intelligent honorable man would evaluate what i've been posting and reassess his lust for a horrible material that causes great harm to the environment and other living creatures

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:42 | 3484183 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Huh? I like a little arsenic with my raisin bran every morning.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:43 | 3484197 PUD
PUD's picture

heavy metals affect the workings of ones brain....I never had a doubt even before reading the replies to my information

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:50 | 3484222 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Do you drive a car?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:56 | 3484248 PUD
PUD's picture

actually no, i do not but even if I did that would not make it moral to endorse child slavery or the dumping of mercury into the environment now would it? for many driving is key to survival, owning gold is not

see the difference? i know it's hard for the simple minded which is why I don't use big words

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:05 | 3484293 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

No, I wasn't asking to prove a point that you too harm the environment.  I was asking because I need a ride down to my local coin shop and my car is in the shop.  Thanks anyway.  I'll take the bus.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:12 | 3484325 espirit
espirit's picture

Upvote the trolls.  Upvotes skew their stats and reduces the compensation they receive, i.e. unreliable, uneffective anti - diatribe against an obviously pro monetary metals forum.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:31 | 3484800 Alpo for Granny
Alpo for Granny's picture

-No, I wasn't asking to prove a point that you too harm the environment.  I was asking because I need a ride down to my local coin shop and my car is in the shop.  Thanks anyway.  I'll take the bus-

That shit right there is outstanding.

I green you fellow poisioner of baby seals and spotted owls...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:18 | 3484364 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Has any one ever told you the negative aspects of usury, fractional reserve banking, and fiat currency?

Because the destruction and human suffering it causes far exceed those of gold mining. Using precious metals to back money is not perfect, its just a better alternative than our current corrupt system.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 17:05 | 3485484 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

I agree, Herd, with your analysis, although there are no sufficient solutions, since going backwards is never actually possible. We are inside of a runaway system of force backed frauds, which are legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, which has devolved to go out of human control!

What is UGLY are the fundamental factors that enable there to exist a market where one can create "gold" and "silver" out of thin air.

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE LEGALLY ABLE TO CREATE "MONEY" OUT OF "NOTHING," WHICH THEN can create "gold" and "silver" out of thin air ???

To answer that question, I will again link this article below, which does good overall analysis, although its "solutions" are bullshit, since there are NO good solutions.

Money for Nuttin—Debt for Free

By Preston James, April 21, 2013.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:32 | 3484461 Boxed Merlot
Boxed Merlot's picture

moral to endorse child slavery or the dumping of mercury into the environment...


Being a native Californian and living in the central valley / delta region for half a century, I'm aware of the historic mining activities and the impact the original 49s had on the geography. Gold is a unique "commodity" and if not for the financial wizardry of NY investors and their contacts in DC at the time to immediately grant statehood to this landmass, the seeds of the civil war may have been averted and the imbalance the state brought to the tenuous slavery issue may have been more peacefully resolved.

Open pit vs. tunnel is dependent on the particular ore bodies one has access to and this access will always be a matter of sovereignty / ownership.  There were placer claims in the foothills that produced living wages for many miners that measured 16 square feet.  That’s a 4 foot by 4 foot square.  Jail cells are more than twice that size.  This work was carried on by men voluntarily, though I do realize there are still places on the planet that other sovereign nations and their “rulers” impose their wills on their populace to work in similar conditions without the possibility of just compensation. 

As for the toxic wastes you describe, modern extraction methods can be used to recycle and “close loop” these processes so as to not impose undue risks to surrounding neighbors and lands.  These aren’t as inexpensive as dumping on your neighbor and may require a longer term view of ones activity as much as the leaders in these nations that exploit their citizenry ruthlessly consume human capital for base animal lust.



Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:50 | 3484227 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I know, some people think I'm a gold klown here. It must be those heavy metals Im eating.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 17:15 | 3485512 goldsansstandard
goldsansstandard's picture

In a world with more freedom and responsibility, private property rights would be defended. Polluters would be punished. Unfortunately, the State has taken over the job of enforcing property rights, and the result is nasty pollution.

One of the best examples of responsible mining is AXU. They gained title to a whole silver district in exchange for cleaning it up.

They have invented very ingenious technologies by treating pollution onsite with antidotes. for example, if you have a sulfer problem, load up the old mine with pulverized limestone. Sulfuric acid neutralized onsite.

Another example of environmental foresight is a favorite whipping boy of progressives, Gran columbia Gold.

The jungle in large swaths of columbia is scarred with mercury poisin left behind by the desperate poor mining with minimal tools, which is the very definition of being under capitalized.

Gran columbia helps to solve this problem in the areas where it operates by taking the informal miners ore, and processing it through modern gravimetric cycles., and returning the gold to the miners.
As an added benefit, the miners health is saved, but I wonder if that is viewed as a benefit by those who seek population control.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:59 | 3484271 draug
draug's picture

Then please take some.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:56 | 3484253 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Do your enlightenment services extend to uranium as well?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:09 | 3484319 PUD
PUD's picture

Yes, nuclear power is a horrible thing. See Fukushima, see waste, see costs etc

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:17 | 3484338 espirit
espirit's picture

+1 Troll effort, PUDpuller.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:26 | 3484404 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

Hey ZH's don't waste your rational arguments with a troll. Here is how you do it. FUCK YOU PUD!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:32 | 3484450 ZeroHour
ZeroHour's picture

Do you use electricity?  Do you eat food grown by someone else?  Do you have clean, running water to your kitchen faucet? Do you live in a house built by someone else?


Do you see where this is going?  If you don't live in the backwoods somewhere without using modern conveniences, then you are just being hypocritical.  Who are you to get to choose which conveniences people can have? That modern electronic device you are using to post with was created with a process that leaves by-products that are just as nasty as digging gold out of the ground.


While I agree that modern life creates nasties, I'm not going to tell someone else how to live. 


Just wondering: Do you work for the government?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:24 | 3484407 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Hey PUD, "stupid" is working a ZH thread that you're wealthy on BTC (oh, I remember), getting Error Messaged / Corzine'd out of all your money like all the other World of Warcraft big shots, then acting like you're a first-time commenter that nobody remembers.

Just because BTC licked the goat's ass, doesn't mean that everyone has to.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:34 | 3484144 moonstears
moonstears's picture

Again...PUD...tell your masters you've convinced us all, we get it, and kindly go the fuck away, bu-bye.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:37 | 3484165 PUD
PUD's picture

Again.. I serve no one and do not partake of group think. I evaluate things and base my behavior on the most moral and ethical course. Why is that difficult for you? Are you immoral and unethical by your nature?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:38 | 3484171 moonstears
moonstears's picture

Ok. Thanks for the info?...tell your masters you've convinced us all, we get it, and kindly go the fuck away, bu-bye.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:45 | 3484202 Mr. Hudson
Mr. Hudson's picture

In all fairness, coming on this site and pointing out the negative consequences of gold mining would be like going into a Holocaust museum and claiming that the Jews were never gassed.


Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:55 | 3484239 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Spoken like a true "fair and balanced" FOX news viewer.


Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:58 | 3484262 PUD
PUD's picture

i don't own a t.v. rots your brain. you must own several. i post facts, you choose to ignore them or rationalize them away...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:20 | 3484371 espirit
espirit's picture

+1 Troll effort, PUDpuller.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:43 | 3484510 zuuma
zuuma's picture


I see what you're trying to pull here... and I LIKE it!!
You've erected a stiff front against your cheeky, fellow ZH'ers.

Your fine informational points in this thread are rhythmically surging forward.

It is a fluid form of wit -- splashing against the tiles of ignorance.

Whatever you do, work it. Keep it up!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 17:28 | 3485548 Hulk
Hulk's picture

He's convinced me, I have  turned  all my PMs and rectal thermometers into the proper authorities !!!

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:05 | 3484644 Overflow-admin
Overflow-admin's picture

Mr. Hudson, you've gone too far. Please take your Godwin ticket and go FORWARD to next reeducation camp.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:53 | 3484237 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

Immoral and unethical.

Benny and the boys on the other hand, they destroy whole countries in one big gulp.

I stand behind my virtue.

Your groupthink prefers fiat?

Go pull it PUD


Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:59 | 3484272 PUD
PUD's picture

Are you as illiterate as the rest of you clan here? Did I endorse fiat? did I?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:23 | 3484396 espirit
espirit's picture

+1 Troll effort, PUDpuller.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:31 | 3484436 akak
akak's picture

By your specious attacks on gold, yes, yes you DO support corrupt and unsustainable fiat currency, you PUDdle of shit.

Now, go do Gaia a favor, and kill yourself.  Preferably in a slow and excruciatingly painful manner, to mirror your posting history here.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:00 | 3484276 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

What should moral and ethical folks be doing to protect their hard earned savings?

I don't like the environmental impacts either, but I consider the demand for gold as a reflection of how toxic our system has become. Toxic economic system, toxic environmental impacts, toxic social impacts, it all seems about right. Not that the pollution is okay, but every intervention in the natural system seems to have toxic impacts that create new crises that need more new toxic interventions. The toxins are building up with nowhere to naturally discharge the impacts to safely disperse.

My question again, what do you recommend? 

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:06 | 3484313 PUD
PUD's picture

Become as self sufficient as you can, get off the grid as much as possible. Rid yourself of stuff. Plant a garden. Shop local, There is no guarantee that gold will protect should know better.  If the system collapses gold will be useless

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:15 | 3484356 akak
akak's picture

What if, as is far more likely, the system does NOT collapse into the strawman "Mad Max" world that all you conventional, conformist sheep love to posit, but merely becomes more corrupt, more fucked-up, and more unstable --- as has happened countless times in history under similar or identical circumstances? 

What about the value of gold in THAT case, troll?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:16 | 3484361 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture


I have done much of the above. My garden is doing well. There is no guarantee gold or my gardent will protect me. I'm still going to garden. Gold is a part of the plan, you don't know for sure exactly what is going to happen, so you hedge for many outcomes. Gold has helped plenty of other folks in countries where the system collapsed. Nothing is for sure except that on a long enough time line the survival rate for everyone drops to zero...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:13 | 3484705 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

I just had my first baby cow of the spring!

Her name is Buttercup (Princess Buttercup) and she is BEAUTIFUL!

Four white feet and a sweet Jersey/Dexter face.

She and mom Daisy are doing fine and eating the first grass of the year.

Overlooking the lake where I lost all my gold in that tragic ice fishing accident.

Fava beans are up, waiting for some asparagus.


Mon, 04/22/2013 - 16:00 | 3485213 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

I will not harvest my asparagus, it is the first year. They are so long and spindly. Black berries, blue berries, figs, peach, apple, a pear too. I am in my first year, a disaster two years ago took EVERYTHING. Getting veggies in the ground. Wild flowers and crimson clover like crazy. There must have been a several hundred bees yesterday, some small butterflies, humming birds. It is a small urban garden, but the place is so colorful and alive.

Congrats to you and Daisy. I am considering chickens, but it will be a couple of years.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 18:00 | 3485616 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

Thanks MsCreant.

Sorry to hear you're starting over. Sometimes it's a good thing, better by choice though.

Chickens are a riot. We train a select few every spring hatch and they are hilarious.

My chickens helped me clean out one of the veggie gardens all day.

Looking after animals is much more satisfying than looking after a stock portfolio.

You don't need charts to predict what a chicken will do!

Get chickens and throw away the TV everybody.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 18:56 | 3485768 whoopsing
whoopsing's picture

Curious, what do you train your chickens to do , stand-up? P.S. I have chickens

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 20:29 | 3486094 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

Come when called, let you pick them up and sit on your shoulder.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 22:28 | 3486430 moonstears
moonstears's picture

Miss, if I may, mad'am...pud is here putting flowers on an agenda, it is the opposite of yours. He/she/it/shit give two fucks about fish full of mercury(nod to Mr Marvin Gaye). Back to the regular program, now.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 14:48 | 3484884 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Nice answer. One that should satisfy PUD, but likely won't. Because his agenda is not only at the 'moral' (intellectual) level, but also at an emotional (hidden) level.

If he still persists after your response, we know there is something else at play. In which case my response would be: Ignore completely. No arrows, no comments.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:38 | 3484483 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

I'll stop buying PMs because of the environmental impact of mining about the same time the environmental extremists give up gasoline, diesel and electricity because of their environmental impact. In other words, never.

AlGore's carbon buttprint is so large it casts a shadow. That alone shows how serious he is about global warming. By the way, NASA has now released a report ( that contains the following:

"For the three day period, March 8th through 10th, the thermosphere absorbed 26 billion kWh of energy.  Infrared radiation from CO2 and NO, the two most efficient coolants in the thermosphere, re-radiated 95% of that total back into space." (Emphasis added) And here we all thought that CO2 causes global warming! 

It's all about control.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:28 | 3484344 espirit
espirit's picture

+ 1 Troll, PUD.

Now get out of yo mama's basement and off the financial porn sites, hoe that garden and milk that goat.

We know where it's tied up.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:32 | 3484446 Satan
Satan's picture

Yes.* sigh...

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:36 | 3484160 debtandtaxes
debtandtaxes's picture

Down to cut and paste, now are we...? 

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:42 | 3484187 PUD
PUD's picture

It's information that many here who lust for gold may not be aware of

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 13:13 | 3484333 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture


Yes, you are the only one with superior knowledge; engineering degrees do not matter. And gold appears behind the counter.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:39 | 3484175 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

 “Gold tailing ponds and piles are chock-full of contaminants such as arsenic, antimony, residual cyanide and mercury.

Now compare that to the misery and death caused by central banking, then it should suddenly become clear what an absolute waste of skin you are.

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:41 | 3484182 PUD
PUD's picture

so in your stupid mind one evil allows all evils?

Mon, 04/22/2013 - 12:46 | 3484207 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

I'm rubber, you're glue.  I know you are but what am I?  Takes one to know one!

You always got picked last for kickball, didn't you?

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!