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Jeremy Grantham On The Fall Of Civilizations (And Our Last Best Hope)

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In a slight digression from the usual pure market-based discussions of Jeremy Grantham's perspectives, the fund manager addresses what is potentially and even more critical factor for the markets. As he writes, we are in a race for our lives, as our global economy, reckless in its use of all resources and natural systems, shows many of the indicators of potential failure that brought down so many civilizations before ours. By sheer luck, though, ours has two features that might just save our bacon: declining fertility rates and progress in alternative energy. Our survival might well depend on doing everything we can to encourage their progress. Vested interests, though, defend the status quo effectively and the majority much prefers optimistic propaganda to uncomfortable truth and wishful thinking rather than tough action. It is likely to be a close race.


Via GMO,

The Fall of Civilizations

The collapse of civilizations is a gripping and resonant topic for many of us and one that has attracted many scholars over the years. They see many possible contributing factors to the collapse of previous civilizations, the evidence pieced together shard by shard from civilizations that often left few records. But some themes reoccur in the scholars’ work: geographic locations that had misfortune in the availability of useful animal and vegetable life, soil, water, and a source of energy; mismanagement in the overuse and depletion of resources, especially forests, soil, and water; the lack of a safety margin or storage against inevitable droughts and famines; overexpansion and costly unnecessary wars; sometimes a failure of moral spirit as the pioneering toughness and willingness to sacrifice gave way to softer and more cynical ways; increasing complexity of a growing empire that became by degree too expensive in human costs and in the use of limited resources to justify the effort, until the taxes and other demands on ordinary citizens became unbearable, so that an empire, pushed beyond sustainable limits, became vulnerable to even modest shocks that could in earlier days have been easily withstood. Probably the greatest agreement among scholars, though, is that the failing civilizations suffered from growing hubris and overconfidence: the belief that their capabilities after many earlier tests would always rise to the occasion and that growing signs of weakness could be ignored as pessimistic. After all, after 200 or even 500 years, many other dangers had been warned of yet always they had persevered. Until finally they did not.

The bad news is that as I read about these varied scenarios – and I have missed listing several – they all appear plausible and each seems to be relevant to several earlier collapses of empires and civilizations both large and small. Very recently, one of these scholars, William Ophuls, wrote a new book, Immoderate Greatness (a quote from Gibbons’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire), with the subtitle Why Civilizations Fail. It is a straightforward summary and synthesis of all of the ways to fail in 70 small pages, yet with extensive notes and references. It is written in remarkably accessible, simple language and divides the causes of failure into six categories. Unfortunately, all six seem to apply to us today in varying degrees, and where one factor might be manageable – although often has not been – he makes the chances of our managing all six seem slight. It is persuasive and needs to be read. It takes about two hours.

William Ophuls’s conclusion is that we will not resist the impressive list of erosive factors and that, in fact, we are in the fairly late stages of our current civilization’s race for the cliff edge with nothing much to head us off. His study of history leads him to believe that civilizations are actually hard wired to self-destruct: programmed to be overconfident, to keep on pushing for growth until limits are overstepped and risks accumulated to the breaking point. His offer of good news is that after the New Dark Ages, when civilization again rears its head, presumably with a much smaller population, we will have acquired the good sense to be less overreaching, less hubristic, a lot humbler about growth and our use of resources, and more determined to live in balance with the natural energy we receive from the sun and the heat, food, and water with which we can sustainably be provided.

I have just two comments about our current problems. First, that there is one particular pressure this time that seems particularly serious: aversion to bad news. The investment business has taught me – increasingly as the years have passed – that people, especially investors (and, I believe, Americans), prefer good news and wishful thinking to bad news; and that there are always vested interests to offer facile, optimistic alternatives to the bad news. The good news is obviously an easier sell. Good news in investing in particular is better for business; good news on resource limitation is better for the suppliers of resources; and good news on climate change – that it basically does not exist and is even a hoax – is better for energy companies, among the biggest and most profitable of all companies. Historians have pointed out the bias against the need for change: there are always clear beneficiaries of the current state of affairs but the benefits of a changed world in contrast will look vague and uncertain to the likely beneficiaries. That is always the case. What is less common, although not unique in history, is what we have today: the near complete control of government by the powerful beneficiaries of the current system.

The second point is that although I find Ophuls’s argument well-reasoned and although I must acknowledge the strong possibility of a very negative outcome, I feel it is too pessimistic (which, sadly, is a rare occurrence for me on this topic). Yes, we are taking extreme risks with resource depletion and with the environment, especially concerning climate damage and ocean acidification. Yet I believe the case for the near certainty of our running off the cliff misses the existence of two extraordinarily lucky (and, one could argue, undeserved) gifts that were not available to any prior stressed civilization. They may arrive like the U.S. Cavalry, just in time to turn us away from the cliff edge. But at best, as Wellington is famously paraphrased as saying about the Battle of Waterloo, it will be a “damn closely run thing.”  It will be the race of our lives.


Our Last Best Hopes: Declining Fertility and Improving Technology for Renewable Energy

Declining Fertility

The first of the two incredibly fortunate factors that might enable our current world to avoid at least partial collapse is declining fertility. Malthus correctly analyzed the main problem of our then history (in 1800): population had always kept up with food supply, leaving even successful societies only a few bad growing seasons away from starvation. He predicted that this would always be the case and he was wrong on two counts. The first is a short-term factor – only existing for 200 or 300 years and therefore irrelevant for the longer term of our species – and that is the increased ability to extract previously stored energy in the form of coal and oil. This hydrocarbon interlude will end either when that share of hydrocarbons that can be extracted economically is used up, or more likely when the tyranny of the second law of thermodynamics imposes its will: enough of the higher forms of convenient compact energy like coal and oil will have been converted into heat, waste, and especially carbon dioxide to ruin our climate in particular and our environment in general.

Malthus, however, completely missed declining fertility, a potentially very long-term and hence much more critical factor to the survival of our species. Neither he nor anyone else before 1960 even dreamed that we would voluntarily decide to have fewer children even as we became richer. In his day and until the early twentieth century, rich families routinely had eight or more children. Ironically, it has turned out that the same instincts that bring us the problems of excessive consumption and unnecessarily rapid resource depletion have also brought us the attitude that children are inconvenient and desperately expensive. Improved medical services that further allowed populations to explode now allow the confidence to have smaller families. Increased farm technology lowers the significance of the labor from many children. The most obvious drivers of lower birth rates, though, are the improved education of women and advances in birth control methods. The net effect of these factors is a change so profound that just a hundred years ago it was not even guessed at, and indeed population growth and fertility continued to rise until about 1960 – just the other day.

The following exhibits show the remarkable and promising data. The dashed horizontal line at 2.1 in Exhibits 1 through 4 is the fertility level required to have a stable population in the modern world under normal conditions. Exhibit 1 shows the remarkable drop in fertility in the richer East Asian countries, including China, with almost a fifth of the world’s population.

Exhibit 2 shows the drop in the larger and wealthier countries to an average level just below replacement, with the very latest update for U.S. fertility in 2012 dropping below replacement.

Exhibit 3 shows selected important and sometimes spectacularly unexpected examples. At the top of the unexpected list is Iran, which has dropped from a fertility rate of 7 – children per woman! – in 1960 to an almost unbelievable 1.6 today. Another remarkable example of a large Islamic country is Bangladesh, which has also fallen from 7 in 1960 to 2.2. This is extraordinary given their extreme poverty. The particularly important India, with its 1.2 billion people, has fallen from 6 to 2.6. This is quite remarkable in absolute terms, but given the previous two examples and given India’s pressure from overpopulation, it’s almost a disappointment.

Exhibit 4 shows the more serious disappointments. Yes, the rates have dropped in these countries, but their populations are still growing rapidly and most of them have intermittent food problems already. They are almost all in Africa.

Unless they and the world are lucky and they improve (perhaps with appropriate help from rich countries), we are likely to end up looking to the students of long-term civilizations as if we have had two separate systems: one in Africa, with failed states, poverty and malnutrition, and rapid population growth, probably having been left increasingly to cope on their own; the second in the rest of the world, with substantial and still growing affluence and with fertility below the replacement rate, forming a single market for resources and global trade in general, and trading as if they comprised one gigantic old fashioned imperial economy.

This remarkable decline in fertility is our last best hope, both from our civilization’s point of view as well as for the well-being of all of the life on our planet. Exhibit 5 summarizes the past data and projects the more optimistic end of the U.N. data for future global population.  The world’s population is shown peaking around 2050 at just over 8 billion and then declining to near 6 billion by 2100. Ex-Africa, it reaches just under 6.5 billion in 2040 and declines to below 4 billion in 2100, back to where it was in about 1978. Africa is shown growing from about 250 million in 1950 to well over a billion today and, even under this relatively favorable outlook, continuing to expand to over 2.3 billion by 2100. The U.N.’s more pessimistic end of the range (not shown) has a continuing rise in population, but at a slowing rate, to 11 billion and beyond. At that level the stresses on global food and on global law and order, especially in Africa, will almost certainly be too great and Ophuls’s prediction will likely be correct. The lower population track, in contrast, holds out a strong hope of survival – that is, of maintaining a reasonably stable global civilization and continuing to improve the quality of the average life.

The return, therefore, to helping encourage a lower population everywhere is incredibly high. Yet little is done at an international level and indeed the issue is treated like a hot potato even by usually well-meaning NGOs. But we can do it, and my guess is that we will indeed succeed on this front. In the meantime it would be encouraging if economists, The Economist (not to pick on them but I tend to hold them to higher standards than others), and economic discussions in general would look out a few more years and stop discussing lower population growth as if it were a dire economic threat rather than our last best hope. Of course, as growth rates drop rapidly and populations quickly age, there is an added burden to workers of carrying more non-workers for one generation as the changes flow through the system. Then things stabilize again. This cycle can be ameliorated enormously by having older people extend their contributions and by facilitating the full participation of women in all countries. The ruinous alternative is to have an ever-growing population run off the cliff collectively. The economics industry has indeed done a particularly inadequate job on long-term sustainability in a world of finite resources. It is a good time for them to wake up to the problems we face on this front. Fortunately, individual decisions on fertility might well get the job done anyway, without any help from a potentially less blinkered and longer-term economic theory.


Renewable Energy

This brings us to the second remarkable gift, which involves a branch of the “cornucopian” optimism that I usually deplore: that the infinite human brain combined with technology will solve all problems. Yes, this is the same brain that brought us World War II, several thousand years of soil erosion, and the collapse of endless empires. An obvious generic weakness in this cornucopian argument is that it ignores our massive dependence on cheap energy. Trains and coal, cars and gas, and electricity and air conditioners and refrigerators in turn drove forward economic activity and the feeling of well-being (try being in Sydney on January 18, at 114.4°F, the hottest day in that seaside city’s history, without air conditioning!), but each came with a cost – an increased wave of energy use, almost all of it from our irreplaceable stores of oil and coal. Yet now, finally, there is an example of a great technological leap that for the first time is accompanied by less energy use – the technologies of solar, wind power, and other alternatives as well as electric grid efficiencies and improved energy storage.

For once, all of the innovations, corporate start-ups, and risk taking – the best part of the capitalist system – work to decrease our use of depleting hydrocarbons and therefore to increase our chance of stabilizing our civilization before the cliff edge is reached. Exhibit 6 shows in orange the truly remarkable decline in the cost of electricity from photo- voltaic cells. The only thing to compare it to is the Moore’s Law decline in the price of semiconductors.

That would indeed be a happy comparison, for perceived physical limits to semiconductor progress have been overcome time and time again. If the physical limits on photovoltaic efficiency, and hence its price, are similarly maneuvered in future decades, then the price of photovoltaic energy would guarantee us cheap and plentiful energy forever. Wind power may also be vital in less sunny zones, but there the cost reductions are, probably, mainly behind us. Exhibit 6 shows in green the early rapid declines in the costs of wind power mainly as improved technology allowed for increases in size and therefore efficiency. However, during the great leap in resource costs between 2002 and 2008, which I have been obsessing about for the last two years, the price of steel, cement, and aluminum from which wind towers are built (and all of which are incredibly energy-intensive), all rose from two to three times! Only the flat cost of human labor and improved turbines allowed for wind costs to rise by only 40% during this period. Our exhibit allows for only modest reductions in future wind costs, so that even by 2025 wind costs are estimated to be still higher than 2000, before the great surge in material prices. The remaining component of Exhibit 6 is the cost of coal-fired electricity.

For future estimates we have made a range. The lower end represents a modest 1% a year increase in coal prices and the upper end 4% a year, which is still a little less than the 5% annual average price rise for coal of the last 10 years. As can be seen, by 2025 to 2030 both solar and wind power are likely to be cheaper than coal. All of these comparisons, of course, are made without charging coal for “externalities” – those ills that the coal industry inflicts that we the people have to pay for: mountain tops ripped off and mountain streams polluted, acid rain, and particulate matter damaging health. Even more serious in the long run, the CO2 that is released by burning coal imposes the increasing costs of rising global temperatures: unstable weather for crops and rising costs of more extreme weather-related events. Coal is likely to be a hopeless choice for electricity generation in 20 years, as its price rises and those for alternatives fall, but fully costed for externalities it is an uneconomic choice today. Any potential investors today in a new coal-fired utility should ask some tough questions about “stranded assets” – cost-ineffective assets that will not have had the time to make a positive return on their investment before they will have become uncompetitive or illegal, caught between the falling costs of alternative energy and the rising costs of controlling for “externalities” – pollution and climate damage – that were once passed on as public costs but that will become steadily the responsibility of the emitter.

We have the time, technology, and money to completely replace nonrenewable energy in 30 to 50 years and, on average, in that time period such replacement will be economic (less so in the earlier years but by a wide margin later). As we do it, we will increasingly have much lower marginal costs, for what is often forgotten in these comparisons is that the high cost component in our two main alternatives, solar and wind, are up-front capital costs. Once constructed, the marginal costs of merely operating the wind and solar farms is far, far lower than the marginal costs of digging and shipping coal, even without those other health and environmental costs borne by the general public. You should be aware that when we calculate the costs of alternative energy projects, a high corporate discount rate is used to reflect the idea that to a corporation a dollar spent today to build a wind power project needs to be offset by a dollar and 10 or even 14 cents next year, or $8 or so in 18 years, to pay for the current loss of the use of money and to jump over the corporation’s hurdle rate for attractive investments. The required investment return (hurdle rates) for alternative energy investments is often higher than for traditional corporate investments partly because of unnecessary uncertainties still surrounding these projects: erratic government policies, rapidly changing technologies resulting in most projects having new features, and general unfamiliarity to providers of capital.

But what of the social benefits of these alternative energy projects? Personal average wealth and income has been rising by only 1% to 3% a year for the last 30 years, not 10% or 14%! Solving our long-term energy problems may not only be the most critical economic problem, it may also, as I argue here, be one of two most critical inputs into our future viability as a civilization. A discount rate that would reflect this significance should obviously, in a reasonable world, be far less than the 10% or 14% return needed by a corporation for such projects. I could make a case for a zero social return hurdle in this extreme case, but let us merely settle for a lower-than-average corporate hurdle rate – say, 5%. At a 5% real return (which, by the way, compares to an average delivered 7% real return on all corporate capital in the past), these wind and solar projects would have a much lower levelized cost of energy (the cost that reflects both operating and capital costs) than they would have at higher corporate rates – up to 40% lower. At those lower capital costs typical wind power projects would have a lower “levelized cost” than a typical coal-fired plant and be far ahead in 10 years. Solar farms would still need 10 years at the current rate of progress in cost reductions to catch up with wind power (although roof-top solar is getting to retail rates as we speak). The point to remember is that once the capital is found and the project is built, a wind or solar farm delivers far cheaper energy than a coal-fired utility plant, at around one-third of the marginal cost of coal (about 1¢ per kilowatt hour at a minimum of 3¢ for coal).

The impressions the average businessman carries in his head tend to be a moving average of the last five years’ information. Life is too busy to keep up with everything and usually five years is recent enough. But when there is a sudden shift in a year or two, average opinion is left sometimes far behind and that is exactly what has happened to solar energy and to a lesser extent to wind power. The current issue of Prospect magazine in England carries a story of an energy expert who invested three years ago in heavily subsidized home solar panels in the U.K. because doing so more or less guaranteed a 7.5% return (tax-free because the benefit comes in the form of lower bills), which for a low-risk investment was and is far better than anything else these days. You might suspect, the author argued, that the recent two-thirds drop in subsidies would end that game, but he points out that the installation costs of panels (adjusted for increased efficiency) have also dropped from £6,000 to £2,000 for a typical home in just over two years so that homeowners still receive a handsome return. You can just imagine how much easier it is to get a handsome return, without subsidy, at these new lower prices in areas where the sun actually shines – say, California, which receives almost twice the sun of London. (I’m stinging from a totally grey month in London.) At the other end of the spectrum, Duke Power was reported in Bloomberg as stating that the cost of solar panels to them had dropped by 75% in two years. These are truly remarkable shifts and now even modest steady progress from here will get the job done. Meanwhile in wind, the very latest large-scale wind farm in Australia was announced as having levelized costs lower than recent coal plants. All in a world where the cost of coal has doubled and oil quadrupled since 2000. This is not the same game that it was just three years ago.

Energy Storage

Energy storage is now the Holy Grail of environmental progress. The bad news is that progress in the past has been slow. The good news is that there are now scores, if not hundreds, of research teams working on this. Before wind and solar reach a large percentage of total electricity production, it is extremely likely in my opinion that some real cost progress will be made in storage (halving or so), especially at the retail level where a storage device, unlike a car battery, can be heavy, bulky, and relatively inefficient as long as it is cheap. Cheapness would deliver to the household electric market the potential for grid independence. However, let it be admitted that lack of expected progress in energy storage could materially slow down the rate at which alternative energy is adopted. It is therefore an area that particularly needs encouragement and good fortune.

Smart Grid

Over several decades, modernizing the grid to allow much wider and more efficient transfer would dramatically reduce storage needs. Reaching into homes and using temporary electric car battery and refrigerator adjustments, etc., (all by agreement and for a discount) would also reduce the problem. As back-up, natural gas electric generation is the ideal technology with perhaps some use of bio mass and urban waste. Coal for electricity generation is just not necessary today in the U.S., and the last coal plants anywhere may be built in the next 20 years. 

Chinese Cavalry to the Rescue

On this topic, I have high hopes of China setting a brilliant example. They are embarrassingly long capital, accused of wasting much of their 50% of GDP capital investments on subway stops in the middle of farm fields, empty cities, and redundant regional airports. We, in contrast, are embarrassingly short capital, with capital spending having fallen to 16% of GDP and federal debt owed to the public having accumulated to over 70% of GDP and currently increasing at 6% of GDP per year. China could smooth out their potentially dangerous transition from 50% capital spending to a more reasonable 35% over the next 20 years or so by managing a giant program of alternative energy, including the smartest-yet national grid and broad-based research into storage, and all sources of renewable energy, including fusion. (As with the U.S., natural gas from fracking would help in the transition.) Such a massive broad- based program would potentially give them global dominance in the most important industries of the future and would relieve them of their greatest single worry: energy security. It would also relieve them of what will surely become their greatest societal irritant: the incredible air pollution of their major cities, which must already be reducing life expectancy in those cities by several years, as well as substantially increasing health costs. Best of all for them, it would leave them as the low-cost energy player in global trade, and if that, added to their lower labor costs, rising educational standards, rapidly improving infrastructure, and capital deepening, does not put the fear of God into U.S. capitalists, then it should.

It would be a blessing in disguise for the developed world and the U.S. in particular if China announced a 25-year program of alternative energy (enough of these paltry five-year plans!) that embodied a Manhattan project level of commitment. Within just a handful of years of watching them execute this program, we would calculate the competitive consequences and would be forced defensively to emulate them. We would surely discover that we are in fact still wealthy and can afford worthy projects with long-term payoffs and that our perceived poverty is more about leadership and perceptions than it is about reality. The U.S. is, after all, richer than it has ever been and is still the richest large country in the world. I have made a part of this point before. I am repeating it because: a) it’s very important; and b) the Chinese government has inexplicably failed to snatch up my idea. It would be a lay-up for them if they did. (Dear Chinese translator, a “lay-up” means “an easily achievable goal.”) In a world lacking U.S. leadership in energy sustainability, a truly major Chinese effort might be the difference between collective global success and failure. In this case it would be the Chinese cavalry heading us off at the cliff edge, but I’ll take any cavalry we can get.


(Postscript: recent, several leading Chinese cities recorded disastrous levels of pollution. On a scale where 30 is the barely safe limit, they hit over 300 several times. The Chinese government responded almost immediately, which was not a bad idea, because yearly reoccurrences of dangerous pollution will pretty soon guarantee that some smart but critical people will move out of these worst cities. Wouldn’t you? They upped their current target [already very aggressive by U.S. standards] for installed solar generation capability in just three years by 65%! Astonishing by any standard and currently politically impossible outside China. This new target means that they will have the equivalent in solar power of seven or so giant coal-fired plants, a very large absolute number anywhere except in China, where it is still dwarfed by coal plants.  But, it is a down payment.)


The two favorable factors described, with luck and some improved effort and leadership, may buy us enough time to completely retune our agricultural system, for it will take many decades to change attitudes and build the infrastructure, training, and research to move to complete agricultural sustainability. That in turn would allow us time in a stable environment to address the problem that will no doubt take the longest time of all: addressing our failing supplies of metals. Yes, we are blessed with large supplies of aluminum and iron ore, although, like agriculture and civilization itself, their usefulness to us is completely dependent on the availability of cheap energy. More to the present point, affordable supplies of most other metals, some very useful, will run low this century and must be replaced by organic alternatives, which process will need all the time and research that success with the other factors might be able to deliver.

Suspended over this close horserace between destructive and regenerative forces are the wild cards of rising temperatures, slowly rising sea levels, ocean acidifi cation, and, above all, destabilized weather for farming. Even if the cavalry arrives in time to prevent the main disaster – a rolling collapse of much of civilization – much damage is being done and will definitely continue to be done to the environment and biodiversity as global temperatures continue to rise. But with improved behavior, we may well buy enough time to save our own species and most of what we really value. In my opinion, all of the other factors in this mix are reasonably susceptible to data and analysis. The scary part of the climate issue is that by its nature there can be no precision on extent or timing and, consequently (as I have mentioned before), scientists, in their desire to avoid being seen to exaggerate, end up systematically underestimating the case.

The January 23 New York Times science section, for example, had an article on rising sea levels that said that the authors – scientists all – “share an emerging consensus that the increase in ocean level in this century will probably be on the order of three feet, perhaps as much as six feet,” requiring many millions to evacuate. “But many scientists,” they add “are plagued by a nagging fear… that their calculations will turn out to have been too conservative, and social stability will eventually be threatened.” “At every point as our knowledge increases,” Dr. Raymo, the leader of the project, is quoted as saying, “we’ve always discovered that the climate system is more sensitive than we thought it could be, not less.” [Emphasis added.] To be perhaps a little cruel, a statistician might suggest that after serial underestimations, expectations might be adjusted.

The bottom line is that if we put our minds to it we can overcome normal inertia and abnormally powerful vested interests that oppose necessary change. Our population is likely to start declining in a few decades, slowly but surely, and the fertility rate of 1.8% or less would allow global population to fall back more or less gracefully by 2200 to a probably sustainable level of 4 billion, particularly if we sensibly encourage its decline. Important progress in alternatives is certain. Other scientific progress, especially in computing power will also help. Whether we can move fast enough on these fronts and at the same time reduce the output of greenhouse gases to avoid going off the cliff is simply not knowable for certain, but every minute saved and improvement made, betters our odds. Let the race begin.

Correction:  Natural Gas Forecast

I am bullish about the longer-term price of natural gas and in my personal account I am long the futures several years out. At five years out, the implied price is $4.50 mcf. However, in the Q&A section of a talk I gave recently I was quoted as saying that in five years the price “would have tripled.” This implies a price, then, of $12. This is either a misquote or a misspeak. What I intended to say and have said before was that from the low last year the price would be likely to triple in 5 years: that is to about $6 or $7 mcf, far above the assumed $4.50 then, but far below the number in the quote.


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Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:30 | 3505773 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

A few years ago we told our kinfolk that 2012 would be the year of financial survival, and 2013 would be the year of just plain survival.  Still awaiting the high-fives...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:47 | 3505805 Aeternus
Aeternus's picture

Help us Obi Ben Bernank Kenobi, you're our only hope. (cue williambanzai7 starwars photoshop)


PRINT MOAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:07 | 3505829 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

we are in a race for our lives, as our global economy, reckless in its use of all resources and natural systems, shows many of the indicators of potential failure that brought down so many civilizations before ours. By sheer luck, though, ours has two features that might just save our bacon: declining fertility rates and progress in alternative energy.


'ALTERNATIVE ENERGIES' require rare earth metals &... drumroll... SILVER... [which the jew bankers are chasing underground as we speak ~ OR ~ because their ULTIMATE plan is to corner the market in it so as to execute MORE control]... And, since NOBODY is interested in questioning the asymmetry of jew influence in banking, MSM, political activism, & jurisprudence... Nobody is interested in addressing the problem... Unless, of course, the aforesaid 'manipulators' are either just simpleminded, or shortsighted [which may be the case ~ but I doubt it... I actually think they're quite SMART... 'Evil', but smart]...

As for DECLINING FERTILITY RATES... That is only a phenomenon in, describably, the western world [which is controlled by jews]... It is NOT the case with Chinese, Indians, or Moslems [all of which have decidedly LESS jew influence, or overbearance ~ Which is NOT to say they don't have their own problems]

Thanks for playing Grantham... Next conundrum...?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:16 | 3505860 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Well, there is a fundamental flaw with proclaiming yourself "Gods chosen people" but we will let you flesh that out...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:34 | 3505893 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Well I've personally stated several times [& actually built a scientific case upon] the idea that 'GOD HATES ME'... Loosely restructured it goes as follows:


- I disagree with EVERYTHING about the fractional joobuck reserve banking system & its edifice, the [non]Federal [non]Reserve... But the kingpin of that system claims to be 'Doing God's Work'... By default... GOD HATES ME...

- I believe that 'religions' are the opiates of the masses... By definition... I have ZERO path to God...

So I'm just wingin' it on my own here...


I have found, however, that NATURE is my friend [when I dance with it]... Amazingly, [& perhaps 'INSTRUCTIONALLY']... Nature never asks, requires, or sets down laws to me that I must act 'civilized'...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:49 | 3505934 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

She can be a bitch, though....

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:14 | 3506005 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

In your case, i would get myself a streetdog and name it Mr Eccles. I'm with you on this one. Why? Because it feels good. And fuck the rest.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:39 | 3506021 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Mama Nature & DAWGS... always fair...


&, with respect to the ABOVE ^^^ JUNKS...

- I can only speculate  that 'ALTERNATIVE ENERGIES' require zero silver in their production...

- Furthermore... I must be in ERROR in stating that Muslims & Indians are NOT experiencing declining birthrates...

Sorry ~ My bad... Next time just reply *SIGH*...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:46 | 3506289 kito
kito's picture

Oh Francis, you were doing so well for a while...I almost thought you were over your joo paranoia.........

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:38 | 3506404 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Well at least he's still talking. We had our own little holocaust here a few years back and it's that at least that part appears have found a bottom. Anywho I'm all for girls who just wanna have fun in the sack. I'm not so sure it's a hallmark of Civilization's Resurgence...but I look to repeating that line and will inform fellow ZH'ers of how it goes. BTW isit Kito? Cato? Clitto? NATO? I'm gettin' on in years and I really can't read the fine print like I used too...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:27 | 3506569 notbot
notbot's picture

I'm sure Grantham is brilliant and all, but I heard him speak at the Columbia investors conference...he is more fixated on global warming than Al Gore.  To the point of hysterics. He was almost screaming at Republicans.

He's boarderline crazy, IMO.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 00:49 | 3506826 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

I'm sure Grantham is brilliant and all, but I heard him speak at the Columbia investors conference...he is more fixated on global warming than Al Gore. 

Correct on both points. He was nearly arrested for protesting the keystone xl (his daughter was arrested).

Generally there are two types of people, those who understand the science of AGW and accept it (Grantham) and those who do not understand it. Those who understand it are rightly a bit horrified by some of the political forces joined against any reasonable change. 

He's boarderline crazy, IMO.

Fortunately your opinion is totally irrelevant. 


I am bullish about the longer-term price of natural gas and in my personal account I am long the futures several years out. At five years out, the implied price is $4.50 mcf.

Start stackin' the nat gas!


Sun, 04/28/2013 - 01:50 | 3507027 Nassim
Nassim's picture

Protesting keystone xl means that he is on the side of Buffett. He wants the differential between WTI and Brent to persist (up to $25 at one time and now around $10 per barrel)

Generally there are two types of people, those who understand the science of AGW and accept it (Grantham) and those who do not understand it.

I see, so anyone who does not agree with fake science is a dummy. Interesting outlook.

BTW, the highest temperature ever recorded in Sydney was on January 22 1923 at 116.9F (47.2C) - 90 years ago.

The optimism regarding population and photovoltaic progress is amazing. I guess the Africans are not going to move elsewhere.

Wind-power has always been a loser except in special situations.

Today's electric storage options (for large amounts of electric power) are hardly improved over what was available 50 years ago. I can go on. This guy is a dreamer.



Sun, 04/28/2013 - 08:57 | 3507179 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Hey Kito ^^^^^^^^ [I almost thought you were over your joo paranoia.........]


Paranoia?... Me?.... Well ~ Let's dust off that old "You may be Paranoid IF..." thingy...

Last I checked...

- I'd never created, funded, & staffed a round the clock ADL

- Didn't monitor & delete comments [as is the case with EVERY internet forum, save for ZH]

- Didn't worry about Iran 'imminently' going nuke [first reported by Israel, if I remember, back in the 70's I believe it was]

- Didn't have the largest PAC, by far, on "K" St...

- Wasn't worried about 'Tanks in the Streets' if daddy took my T-Bird <joobuck fractional reserve system> away


Hell ~ I'm not even worried about shopping at Banana Republic to make sure I have that 'Metrosexual' thing going on...

Anyway Kito I've decided to alter the message [remember ~ I said 'message' there... I have no agenda... I'm just making a chronicle of my observations here]... The FULLER explanation of this I've already explained in the MATT TAIBBI thread...

It goes like this in a nutshell...

I don't like the word 'BLAME' [which is what people like to characterize my jew comments as]... I call it an 'asymmetric footprint' & ask for an answer... Until I get a satisfactory answer, then I'll keep asking the same question... Sorry ~ but there's no GOOGLE search that can solve the mystery in a couple of mouse clicks...

But here's something to consider...

Every day on ZH, there is article upon article, about INJUSTICE after INJUSTICE [relating to banking, politics, the MIC, and faux journalism ~ which equals PROPAGANDA]... OK... Let's leave that be for a moment... Lets assume:

- The money prints itself [there's no FACE to that]

- The news reports itself [there are no editors, program managers, or whatnot]

- Spying just happens by itself... Somehow, nanobots configured themself out of nothing & now we have data centers, drones, & even police forces & paramilitary operations are just IMPERIAL STORMTROOPERS who came out of nowhere...

- Congress, The Executive Branch, & even the Judiciary Branches are all occupied by robots... They answer to nobody... They just randomly do idiot things [which are too numerous to list here]...

OK ~ so we have all these problems... Right?... RIGHT??... [& supposedly, at least with the concerned people who log on to ZH, we'd like to see REMEDIES to these problems]... Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I had to do a quick STRAW POLL of 'thinkers' here on ZH, I'd estimate that the consensus POV would be that the TOTAL FUCKING SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE BURNED DOWN TO THE GROUND [&/or, there are no real 'surgical' solutions available that will FIX things]...

So let's follow the path of 'BURN IT ALL DOWN' & see where that leads, shall we?...

Anytime you talk about burning something down to the ground, you're talking about ASYMMETRIC losses... The expression "When you've got NOTHING, you've got NOTHING TO LOSE" comes to mind... So guess who 'LOSES' here?... 'Asymmetrically'... [Hint: it rhymes with LOSE]...

Which is why... IMO... There is such a synthetic effort, by the BENEFICIARIES, to keep the corpse alive...

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 09:07 | 3507269 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture


RED: That doesn't make you a murderer. Bad husband, maybe. Felt bad about it if you want to. But you didn't pull the trigger.

ANDY: No. I didn't. Somebody else did, and I wound up in here. Bad luck, I guess.

RED: Yeah.

ANDY: It floats around. Has to land on somebody. It was my turn, that's all. I was in the path of the tornado. I didn't expect the storm would last as long as it has. You think you'll ever get out of here?

RED: Me? Yeah. One day when I got a long, white beard and two or three marbles rolling around upstairs. They'll let me out.

ANDY: Tell you where I'd go. Zihuatanejo.

RED: Zihua...?

ANDY: Zihuatanejo. It's in Mexico. A little place on the Pacific Ocean. You know what the Mexicans say about the Pacific? They say it has no memory. That's where I want to live the rest of my life. A warm place with no memory. Open up a little hotel right on the beach. Buy some worthless old boat and fix it up new. Take my guests out charter fishing.

RED: Zihuatanejo?

ANDY: In a place like that, I could use a man that knows how to get things.

RED: I don't think I could make it on the outside, Andy. I've been in here most of my life. I'm an institutional man now. Just like Brooks was.

ANDY: Well, you underestimate yourself.

RED: I don't think so. In here I'm the guy who can get things for you, sure, but outside all you need is the Yellow Pages. Hell, I wouldn't even know where to begin. Pacific Ocean? Shit! About to scare me to death, somethin' that big.

ANDY: Not me. I didn't shoot my wife and I didn't shoot her lover, and whatever mistakes I made I've paid for them and then some. That hotel, that boat... I don't think that's too much to ask.

RED: I don't think you ought' a be doing this to yourself, Andy! This is shitty pipe dreams! I mean Mexico's in the way the hell down there, and you're in here, and that's the way it is!

ANDY: Yeah, right. That's the way it is. It's down there, and I'm in here. I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living... or get busy dying.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 13:35 | 3510557 Milestones
Milestones's picture

You brought back memories. I lived in my van on thr Playa del La Ropa in Zihuatanajo about 10 years ago for about 6 weeks. most beautiful spot I have seen in Mexico.

I am a constant reader of your posts. You're thinks closely jibs with mine.

Right on with what you have said so far with a few eceptions.  Regards         Milestones

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 04:20 | 3507074 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

>>Generally there are two types of people, those who understand the science of AGW and accept it (Grantham)<<

Good, then it ought to be simple enough to explain it.  Invariably, nobody does.

I've asked for the temperature data, the precise details of how it was collected and how that collection of temperature data has changed over time, but nobody seems able to comply.

Without the data, nobody can understand what is going on - but maybe that's the point.

Also please explain why the last 15 years had the most human CO2 input in any 15 year period and the warming was not statistically significant.

Also, please let us know why we should believe the next 15 year temperature model when the last 15 year temperature model was a swing and a miss before the pitch was thrown.


PS - My current stance is that inputs that impact global temperature are multi-variate and incredibly complex.  This complexity is not made sinple because some self interested bureaucrats voted that the sun isn't a big impact on global warming nor by not admitting the complexity and pretending it is pretty simple.

PSS - Also note that the root cause of CO2 emissioons, if they turn out to be the bad guy as advertised the bankster financed establishment, are the very banks themselves.

Credit bubble -> demand bubble -> industrial bubble -> CO2 bubble.

So, what is the solution put forward by the very same criminals who are the root cause of the problem?  Give the criminals who created the problem tax money at the expense of everyone else.

Oh, and tax the h*ll out of their competition so they can double and triple prices given their new found monopoly stranglehold.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 13:54 | 3507761 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Good, then it ought to be simple enough to explain it.  Invariably, nobody does.

It is simple science and people explain it all the time. But it's like those who believe in creationism, I could spend all day explaining why creationism does't make sense but you can't successfully argue someone's beliefs or bias with logic / facts. 

Also, please let us know why we should believe the next 15 year temperature model when the last 15 year temperature model was a swing and a miss before the pitch was thrown.

Scientists don't want you to 'believe' anything - if you dispute the model come up with a better one. 

Also note that the root cause of CO2 emissioons, if they turn out to be the bad guy as advertised the bankster financed establishment, are the very banks themselves.

Totally irrelevant to the debate on the science of AGW. 

So, what is the solution put forward by the very same criminals who are the root cause of the problem?  Give the criminals who created the problem tax money at the expense of everyone else.

Grantham presented some ideas here, others have presented good ideas. You don't have to accept AGW to support some of the proposed solutions. Taxing people more (a proposal you correctly point out is idiotic) is not seriously proposed as a solution, no matter how much they talk about it on TV.

A new approach to agriculture is one of the best imo, the land / soil is being destroyed by factory farming and this is actually one of the biggest sources of emissions. Change the agriculture business and you're well on your way to solving the problem. And it's multiple birds hit with one stone!

Even if we disagree about AGW, I bet most things that I would say contribute to it and a lot of the sensible solutions to deal with it we likely both agree on. 

Sat, 05/04/2013 - 02:02 | 3529667 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

>>It is simple science and people explain it all the time.<<

Your claim doesn't make it so.  You didn't explain it, thus proving my point and garnering you nothing but down votes for arrogance without any kind of foundation.

>>Scientists don't want you to 'believe' anything - if you dispute the model come up with a better one.<<

I want all the data required to evaluate their model - which nobody seems to be able to present.  I'm not making the claim.  The people who make the claim are responsible for backing it up with all the data and logic.

Back it up with real data, not claims of real data.  It should be trivial, but it never seems to be so.

>>Totally irrelevant to the debate on the science of AGW.<<

But very relevant to the POLITICS of AGW that provides the FUNDING for the BLACK BOX manipulation that leads to the now falsified AGW conclusions (not one predicted reality - or came close to it).  Of course they want more money for them and less for us - so saying it isn't a viable solution when they talk about on their TV programming device doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies.  You have no power.  The people who use the TV to program the masses have plenty of power.

My current hobby is aquaponics - and I recommend others spend some time researching it.  The concept is fascinating, it is a great "back to being human" science project for kids and adults alike and it helps the common person get more control over the necessities of life.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 08:54 | 3507251 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

AGW is feeling not a science. period. end of story.

AGW = man bad, gai good

science= fuck the man show me the math

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 11:56 | 3507497 masterinchancery
masterinchancery's picture

There are 2 kinds of people, those with backgrounds in scientific understanding who look at the actual data, and ignorant people like you and your heroes Gore and Grantham.  At least Gore has made a lot of money off this scam.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 14:13 | 3507807 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Gore is a charlatan - this much is obvious to anyone with a brain - exploiting an important issue for personal gain and making it hyper-political in the process benefits no one. 

Grantham on the other hand has a lot of integrity, particularly noted in the way he discusses / approaches his own industry and on the issue of AGW.

^ excellent hour long with Grantham on a variety of topics, a lot of it financial markets. 

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:38 | 3506492 Andy Lewis
Andy Lewis's picture

Or maybe the junks are a sign from God that you're a worthless piece of shit.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:43 | 3506425 olto
olto's picture


This is the best of you, that I have ever read and I could not agree with you more:

"I have found, however, that NATURE is my friend [when I dance with it]... Amazingly, [& perhaps 'INSTRUCTIONALLY']... Nature never asks, requires, or sets down laws to me that I must act 'civilized'..."

Besides, 'NATURE', always leaves a few survivors-----------------

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:51 | 3506860 H E D G E H O G
H E D G E H O G's picture

frances_sawyer, with much respect for your forthrightness and very acute sense in what's going on in these days of turmoil, dismay, and outright unbelieveable occurrences in our world yesterday, today, and tomorrow, i feel led to let YOU know without a doubt, that God loves you. just as you look upon your own children with parental love, so God, The Father, looks upon YOU as His child. and btw, Nature is GOD.................

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:33 | 3505896 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Overpopulation and climate change?  Yawn.  How about we stop planned obsolescence and consumerism, reducing waste dramatically.  You know, shoes, light bulbs, cars, smart phones and computers that actually last. 

As for the climate, its always changing, by definition.  But what I hate is when people try to equate climate change with carbon tax (i.e. that a carbon tax is some kind of solution, and not just a way for the corrupt to make money selling pollution credits). 

OT: Any one seen this video of George Bush Sr.?  He looks like the goddamn Emperor from Star Wars!

(yes they subject you to advertising first, so be prepared to mute and look away)

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:43 | 3505916 centerline
centerline's picture

Funny.  Just need WB7 to take a screenshot and put on the cloak.  Damn.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 04:22 | 3507075 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Grantham p*mping eugenics to the victims of eugenics.

Either Grantham isn't too bright regarding eugenics or he thinks we are idiots.

Sterilants in the water, food and vaccines will reduce fertility, not to mention impoverishing industrialized people.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 21:17 | 3508016 kayl
kayl's picture


Grantham sees his eugenics agenda from such a bird's eye view that may be discussed in polite society without any embar*ass*ment.

Let's go to the man on the street to see how he is contending with chloromines in the tap water.

Mr. Street bought a house in California in 2004- a little cookie cutter home to call his own. Unbeknowst to the new owner, the builder installed Kitec Ipex pipe that is known for dezincification, throwing out chloromine by-products when coming in contact with high chlorine and industrial waste in tap water, and connection failure 10 years on.

Fast forward to December 2011. Having returned from a teaching year in Costa Rica, Mr. Street finds his college-age daughter ailing. She is besides herself- her hair is falling out, she has no energy, she can't think and do her homework. Her eyes can't focus a month after getting new prescription glasses. Mr. Street notices the slick film of grease on his hair when he takes a shower. His skin burns like washing in gasoline.

Mr. Street installs shower and faucet filters throughout the house. Bottled water is used for drinking and cooking. By July 2012, the smell of chemicals in the master bedroom is so acrid that Mr. Street moves to sleep on a cot in the living room. What is going on, he thinks? It must be the water!

By September 2012, household members stop taking showers in tap water. Bottled water is boiled on the stove and carried into the shower stall for daily washing. Son asks not to run the washer anymore, because the poison chemicals are entering his bedroom in the same vicinity. The family does the washing in a laundromat each week.

Hydration seems impossible no matter how many glasses of good water are taken during the day. Mr. Street gets shooting pains in his arms and feet. No energy. He lies gasping for fresh air at the living room window and maintains a persistent dry cough. Throat is burning. Metal fume fever takes over every day. Headaches and insomnia. Mr. Street is running on 4 hours a night of restless sleep. The cat is breathing like a squeeze box, the poor thing has burnt lungs.

October 2012, Mr. Street hires a handyman to install a central charcoal filter and water softner system to remove chemicals and minerals from the water source. After three weeks of part-time work, the handyman gives up the installation. Ipex was recalled for faulty manufacturing, and there are no parts available in hardware stores. The days are getting cold, but the windows remain wide open at all times for airing out.

We spend most of our time away from the house. Increasing bloody noses. No cooking. Daughter insists on renting a hotel room for the night because she can't breath. 

By the end of December 2012, we abandon the house definitively to live in temporary lodgings until all the remediation can be done. We start to get back our health, but every time we enter the house, there's a set back. 

Mr. Street begins by cutting out the sheetrock to install all copper pipes. Copper installed throughout, then installation of central charcoal fiter, Culligan softwater treatment system, and kitchen RO system. The chloromines are still coming into the house and permeate every possession in the house. The dry goods in the cabinets have turned to poison. After research, Mr. Street follows Meth house protocols to clean out the house and make it suitable for habitation. No luck.

March 2013, Mr. Street realizes no amount of remediation short-term will make the house habitable. He goes out to buy a house on 10 acres with a well and septic.

First week of April 2013, Mr. Street makes the mistake of taking his laptop from the house and enters temporary lodgings to complete paperwork. The whole room is permeated with chloromines by secondary exposure. Weakened and sickened by one year of exposure we can't breath. Dry heaves every morning.

Mid April, we move into the new house with strict protocols in place. Nothing can come in except a few clothes from the old house that got washed at the laundromat first.

Cost and Suffering:

Physical torture for the family for about a year.

Lost all possessions and sentimental items.

Temporary food and lodging costs for three months.

The old house is uninhabitable.

The new house is great, but an unanticipated expense.

Not a victim here, just getting out of the way.




Sat, 05/04/2013 - 02:07 | 3529671 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Yes, but the "good news," from the eugenics perspective, is that the bald daughter won't be having any kids to use up oligarch resources - like one of the billions of ammunition that DHS is buying.  One bullet saved is, well, one bullet saved.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 21:04 | 3508017 kayl
kayl's picture




Sun, 04/28/2013 - 08:55 | 3507254 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Anyone see the video of Barrack Hussein Obama... he looks like a fucking idiot.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 13:39 | 3507720 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Which one? There are many.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:35 | 3505897 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture

This is a bit off-topic, but I was working in my yard this morning (Sat) and felt the need to post my thoughts:

Last week, when the initial rumors began about the Boston PD going around in SWAT-style teams through their residential neighborhoods, kicking in doors and pulling people out of their homes at gunpoint as they searched for the 19-year-old remaining terrorist...I requested links from those people so I could see for myself.

Well, I was provided a couple of links and viewed the videos.  Then I saw more videos (i.e., YouTube) posted soon afterward by private individuals who filmed through their own living room windows as the BPD "rescued" their neighbors by ordering them out of their homes with their hands clasped on their heads, and then FRISKING them (including elderly women and kids) as if that had anything at all to do with finding the terrorist.  Finally, a local Boston news team posted their segment in which they interviewed several of the families who were removed and frisked at gunpoint.  All of them(!) said they were scared, but they were okay because the police later verbally apologized for the inconvenience as they gave the "all clear" to go back into their home one by one.  Those stupid Boston sheeple said they were okay with the procedure, given the fact that a criminal was believed to be in their neighborhood.

I was appalled upon learning the truth, as all of you were.  But here's my point:

Yesterday, in just so happened that the Boston bombing came up in several conversations with some of my co-workers as well as some friends with whom we went out to dinner last night.  Each time someone brought it up, I mentioned the video evidence of the BPD blatantly trampling their neighbors' 4th Amendment rights for the whole world to see (and without an uproar from those people), and EVERY ONE OF MY FRIENDS - even the pro-2nd Amendment conservative ones - said they understood the BPD's position, and they wouldn't have a problem with SWAT going through their own homes in a "rare" situation of looking for a terrorist.  After all, they said, would you rather argue with a team of professionals aiming guns at you, while the terrorist gets away?

I felt sick by the end of the evening.  Maybe TPTB don't need to assault our Constitutional rights.  We seem to be giving them up on our own.  "Those that surrender liberty to obtain a little security, deserve neither".

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:41 | 3505909 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

... & these people are your 'FRIENDS'???... Time to re-consider the actual 'MEANING' of that distinction...


Not that you'll do any better by giving them all the bird & hanging out here on ZH...

After time ~ you'll find all you'll ever accomplish is getting into pissing contests with Sheldon Adelson's pool boy [& friends]...

I HOPE YOU LIKE BITCOINS [or you're a total goner]...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:40 | 3506845 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

I felt sick by the end of the evening.  Maybe TPTB don't need to assault our Constitutional rights.  We seem to be giving them up on our own.  "Those that surrender liberty to obtain a little security, deserve neither".

I was watching some TV yesterday evening (usually not a good idea..) and I couldn't believe Americans opinions of the police handling of the Boston bombing & the total willingness to hand over any rights as required in the 'fight of terrorism.' 

Seems incredibly easy to march the people toward fascism. 

An amazing fact is far more people died in Texas from the explosion but few seem concerned about industrial accidents (far more deadly statistically than 'terrorism' in the US). A few deaths from an inept explosive device and the whole country is on high alert. Mind-boggling. 

It felt like I was watching an update to 'invasion of the body snatchers' where everyone had been replaced by aliens but nope, definitely live CNN. 

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:00 | 3505963 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

SWAT: Special Weapons And Tactics.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:09 | 3505984 prains
prains's picture

AnAnalogousAnus: blobbing up and excreting chinese puritanism

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:15 | 3506009 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Or how 'americans' are trapped in fantasy...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:20 | 3506018 prains
prains's picture

yopu make ro sense

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:46 | 3506096 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

As confirmed.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:10 | 3506180 akak
akak's picture

Your mother was a river pig and your father smelt of durians.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:50 | 3506308 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

That's great. The 'american' way of doing.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:00 | 3506328 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Never think the worse is achieved when Chinese citizenism citizens are still in the room. No matter how scrappy the original product, AnAnonymists can and will worsen it.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:17 | 3506010 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

TWAT:  Traitorous Weapons And Tactics.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:43 | 3506496 Arrowflinger
Arrowflinger's picture

SWAT teams kill. Twat teams make you yearn for death.


Sun, 04/28/2013 - 04:24 | 3507078 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

SWAT = Special Weapons Attack Team before marketing spiced it up for the proles.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:37 | 3506265 Binko
Binko's picture

The magic word "terrorist" seems capable of causing almost everybody in America to simply turn off their brains and stand passively quivering in fear. That's why government loves this label so much. 

Killing people is a criminal act. Shooting up a theater or killing a bunch of kids or blowing up a homemade bomb; all the same, criminal acts. But the "terrorist" label is purely political. Murder is murder, it doesn't matter what twisted thoughts are in the mind of the murderer. 


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:45 | 3506495 SHRAGS
SHRAGS's picture

"I looked in the mirror, and the terrorist was me"

Propaganda works on the [modern] uncritical mind.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 09:01 | 3507257 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Wonder how many LEO's homes were subject to the same? 

Some are much more equal than others today more than ever.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:17 | 3505861 The Heart
Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:43 | 3506274 TheFulishBastid
TheFulishBastid's picture

*waving hands emphatically*

THE JEWS ARE OUT TO GET ME, THE JEWS ARE OUT TO GET ME!  If you ain't Palestinian, then grow the fuck up already.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:24 | 3506810 Waffen
Waffen's picture

You're being extremely childish. Jews are a tribe and their nepotism and control of our money, media and government is destroying western civilization.

Cultural Marxism has destroyed American families, values and demographics.

This didn't all happen by chance.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 00:33 | 3506962 TheFulishBastid
TheFulishBastid's picture

For a people who are out to take over the world they are doing a piss poor job of it.  They've only had some 4-5000 years to get the job done.  It's not like they almost got exterminated in the past hundred years or anything.

Our problems aren't caused by a religious/cultural sect, they are caused by greedy people of all religions and cultures, again, grow the fuck up.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 10:07 | 3507348 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Let's see now...


For a people who are out to take over the world they are doing a piss poor job of it.  They've only had some 4-5000 years to get the job done.  

- I think I read somewhere that 47% of all American 'billionaires' are Jews... What an astounding asymmetric achievement for a trive that only represents 1% of the population... &, of course, those 'billionaires' are all just sitting in the forest counting their money... None of them, I'm sure is bothering to coordinate & leverage these positions...

- As for the 4 - 5,000 years... 150 years ago we were still moving around with horses & buggies [if you could afford them ~ the rest walked]...

It's not like they almost got exterminated in the past hundred years or anything.

Funny you should mention that, but the word 'on the streets' is that the upper tiers of their own culture pulled strings to make that happen & that it was all done in accordance with a greater MASTER PLAN... 'Master Plan' [you say]... 'HAHAHAHAHAHA', here comes more of that 'conspiracy' bullshit... Right?...

Yeah ~ Well I guess you're right... Nobody, ever, in history, has ever done anything so devious... I mean ~ it isn't like governments coordinate 'terror' attacks [like 9/11, or Boston, or Sandy Hook] because it fits a Hegelian Dialectic they're trying to script out... Hell ~ HD's don't even exist... They're just another one of those kooky conspiracy things...

Our problems aren't caused by a religious/cultural sect, they are caused by greedy people of all religions and cultures, again, grow the fuck up.

- The money prints itself

- The STORMTROOPERS fabricated themselves

- Politicians get elected because they're all good baby kissers

- The news reports itself

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 11:33 | 3507474 TheFulishBastid
TheFulishBastid's picture

LMAO, ok Henry Ford, the elders of zion were in it with the Nazis the whole time, I guess I done been learned.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 04:27 | 3507080 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Except "the Jerws" aren't doing it.

I recommend you do as Socrates did and think about the meaning of words and concepts before misapplying them.

BTW, you have the game plan down, you just don't have the group that is doing it down.  That leads to confusion.  Confusion helps the criminals orchestrating this Trojan Horse debt money system in an effort to seize ultimate control of the planet.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 09:03 | 3507261 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Dam right. Palestinains aint out to get anybody. Islam is so accepting of other faiths. Look they just opened another Christian Church in Iran last week.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:53 | 3506310 Dr Benway
Dr Benway's picture

Grantham sees declining fertility rates as something good for the economy, when in fact an aging population will put unprecedented stress on economic systems designed for constant growing inflows. The aging population and the unfulfillable financial promises made to them is one of the biggest problems facing the west. A perplexing article.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:10 | 3506344 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture


The aging population and the unfulfillable financial promises made to them is one of the biggest problems facing the west.

I am in quasi-agreement. I would phrase it as one of the biggest predicaments facing the west.

When something is described as a problem, there is an implicit understanding that a solution exists. A predicament only implies that a choice must be made; the choice does not necessarily solve anything.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:03 | 3506753 cape_royds
cape_royds's picture

The demographic bulges are the problem. But the high dependency ratio only lasts for a few decades.

It's an awkward transformation from a pyramidal-looking population chart to a more columnar-looking population chart. Bad news for those immediately following the "bulge" (like me...).

In a society with civic virtue--please stop laughing--the generation in question would understand duty, and eat the pain. I'm not optimistic on this count.

We might just end up finding ways to keep growing the Great Thermodynamic Ponzi Scheme of an ever-broadening demographic pyramid, until collapse.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:03 | 3506716 cape_royds
cape_royds's picture

Did Sawyer read the article?

Iran, Egypt, Malaysia, and Morocco are all very much Muslim countries. Iran has theocracy, ffs.

But who cares about the Islam? They all have plummeting fertility rates. Facts are facts.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 13:01 | 3507618 master of the u...
master of the universe's picture

The chinese are allowed one(1) child. If they have a second child, oh well then we all know what happens next...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:46 | 3506499 Sparkey
Sparkey's picture

Hope beats eternal in the Human breast! Everyone loves it, keep up your hope...Things are only really hopeless when you've lost your hope.... Still... if we are going to change from destructive mode into an attempt at sustainability! The sooner we begin to modify the better chance we have to execute the hoped for reality.

I hate to be a pessimist, but, if we crash there will be no new beginnings, as there were after the other crashes which preceeded us, the difference between us and them? IS, they had a direct link back to the beginning of civilization and their technology was in their hands and heads so they knew how to survive in the World without a civilization to support them.

We call them peasants and compare them to today's people of the inner city, with the implication that neither is worth much, yet in the past the Peasants were the people on the land and they fed everyone and all the tools they needed were in their hands and heads.

Modern Society is the first technological society, the people who do the work no longer understand how the tools do their tasks, nor are the parts repairable, an interuption, of even a relatively short time, could mortally impair the system, should the plants which supply the spare electronic parts be unable to manufacture or distribute their parts chaos should soon appear in a society stranded in an alien place without a solitary idea in their heads about what they could or should do!

The end of mankind, we out smarted our selves, in the time of trial our intellects will be inadequate to the challenge!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:32 | 3506589 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

The low hanging fruit has been picked.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:00 | 3505828 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

The more people realize we work for the banks,
the more we can globally reclaim our wealth.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:40 | 3505908 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Reclaim is a key word here.  I hate that people will accuse me of socialism or communism etc for advocating justice, that is, for stolen wealth to be returned.  Its quite simple, you take the biggest, most illegally begotten fortune(s), and you spread it evenly to every person on the globe (or within the nation).  Or...  You just declare a jubilee. 

Because you will find a lot of the 'wealth' of the elite is 'Receivables' held by them, which are 'Payables' (mortgage, car loan, credit card, national debt) to the average person.  So wipe out the debt, wipe out the receivable, wipe out the Elite.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:36 | 3506255 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

You need to make a clear distinction between money, currency, and wealth when discussing this issue. The average leftard just wants more fiat in his/her own bank account - the wealth/currency distinction doesn't exist if you're economically illiterate.

Getting rid of the debt and the debt-based fractional-reserve fiat bullshit banking system would solve that problem, but without it, our living standard would collapse as purchasing power (currently astronomically high, totally artificial) finds its equilibrium with productivity (currently low in real terms, obscured by the relative value of the currency).

Now go find me a J6P who's okay with turning the clock back 70 years on living standards "just" to get us back to sound money and smallish government. I'll bet you can count them on one hand.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 04:29 | 3507082 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

This is literally true.  A banker widget is debt.  debt is money. 

The corporate mandate, to maximize profits, can also be stated thusly, "to maximiaze banker widgets."

We all LITERALLY work for these mofo selling their debt based banker widgets of mass financial collapse.

The more debt you can pile on society, the more money you make.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:19 | 3506793 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Here's a population control idea; shut off all smart phones for two weeks. The number of suicides worldwide would number in the hundreds of millions.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:21 | 3506800 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Double Post. Curse you AT/T and your weasel 3G+ you call 4G

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 09:36 | 3507217 Dixie Frank
Dixie Frank's picture

Population bomb and energy bomb, same old crap? I remember my 5th grade teacher, telling us we have only 15 years of oil left in the world. That was 30 years ago.

If we gave every human on earth an acre of land, we could all fit in South America. Population bomb? Whatever.

Some of you agriculture folks may know this... Doesnt the US produce enough grain and meat to feed the whole world (also including all of the grain NOT harvested, via USDA subsidies and price controls... Heard stories for years of the USDA subsidies and market controls paying farms not to bring their product to market?)

Energy... Thorium reactors? 69 trillion - gagillion cubic feet of natural gas? Dont we have more potential energy via coal, buried in the US, than all the potential energy EVER via known petrolium?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:34 | 3505785 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Look no further,  YOU are your own last best hope.........

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:40 | 3505790 jal
jal's picture

????? population reduction !!!!!

Not a new idea

History might repeat itself.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:02 | 3505835 max2205
max2205's picture

Lots of mushroom clouds

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:32 | 3505891 Colonel Walter ...
Colonel Walter E Kurtz's picture

Long mushroom clouds.  Fixed it for you.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:42 | 3505796 philosophers bone
philosophers bone's picture

Shallow gene pools are reproducing at far higher rates.  Problem.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:41 | 3505799 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture



I agree with most of what was said but …. The EROEI just doesn’t add up with renewable / green energy – I wish it did. 

The myth of renewable energy 

The Energy Trap


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:13 | 3505851 centerline
centerline's picture

Desperately need some other tech with decent EROEI.  Otherwise the inevitable is a world very different than what we know today for sure.

World is going change dramatically anyhow... but, the EROEI factor is a huge component of how it changes.  Options.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 13:11 | 3507635 master of the u...
master of the universe's picture

Renewable energy is the only way for us (majority of us) to have a bright future. I'm banking on solar energy becoming #1 in the next 10-15 years. My city just opened up a brand new spanking shiney solar farm.

The problem is not only lack of capital, it is the cost of 'things'. When the cost of products falls, that will do more to help the people than anything. Your bank account could double, but it won't do anything along the lines of what the cost of falling  prices will do.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:41 | 3505802 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Striking truth in the article above, that the nagging problem in population growth is Africa.

The rest of the world seems to be able to develop the common sense to limit numbers of children ... but not Africans, no matter what.

A couple decades back, there was famine in Ethiopia, when a large portion of the 40 million Ethiopians were hungry

World poured in money and aid and food, better farming techiques etc.

Now there are 80 million Ethiopians, population has doubled in no time. And it seems there is famine again ...

Demographers are hesitantly pointing out that the last continent of population boom, is Africa, and in fact most of the next 3 billion people to be added to the current world 7 billion, will come from Africa

From Canadian journalist (Mr) Gwynne Dyer, 'The African Population Disaster':

« ... much tutting and shaking of heads over its prediction that we will be ten billion by the end of the century. But almost nobody will have the temerity to point out that this is almost entirely an African problem ...

« The United Nations Population Fund’s own numbers tell the story. Africa currently has one-seventh of the world’s people: just over one billion. But during the rest of the century, the UN agency predicts, this single continent will add an extra 2.6 billion people, more than tripling in population, while all the rest of the world adds just half a billion. ...

« If it weren’t for the African population boom, the world’s population would never exceed 7.5 billion. »

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:45 | 3505812 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Don't worry, Bill Gates is on it.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:20 | 3505871 akak
akak's picture

Team Gates up with Trav777, and I'm sure that they can together come up with a "final solution" to the problem of African overpopulation.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:28 | 3505882 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Hey, wasn't it you that did the hilarious bit about "mudskins"?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:31 | 3505890 akak
akak's picture

It could have been, but I owe the original inspiration(alisticalization) to poster AnAnonymous, our very own George Dishwashington of US 'american' Citizenism.  Make me laugh.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:09 | 3505986 J in Vegas
J in Vegas's picture

I had to log in on my lunch break at the casino on the strip to put in my .02 cents.

First, I thought AIDS was made "allowed" to help keep down the population in high fertility areas, such as Africa. I mean, people with money such as Magic Johnson don't even have it anymore. But yet 25 million African people die each year. By design, or by chance?

Second thing, I hope they get the cost of solar cells/panels cheaper. I want them on the house and there still too expensive in Las Vegas. Its sunny in Vegas like 335+ days of the year. When I priced them out, Solar City said that the electricity rate for Nevada Energy was too low to finacially work for them and their programs. As most on here know, I drive a Volt and if I could get the solar panels on the house, after the initial cost, there would be no long term cost (30 year) for driving or powering my house other than replacing the batteries ( on the volt) when they eventually fail. I have already done all the low hanging fruit changes for energy conservation, changing lights, better machines, changing power habits. The solar power issue is the last big thing. Most of the power in Nevada comes from Nat Gas ~68% or so and its super cheap right know. Its so cheap they just burn it of during there search for oil ( North Dakota fields).

Third, I hope the poplulation slows up. That is the 800 pound elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about. How do you feed all those people (8+ billion) when all the petro products run out? I have a "urban garden" in my backyard, and its hard to get a high yield of food. I grow pesticide free, and the bugs definetly get there share of the food. There definently needs to be less peeps born. I am seeing it... more so with middle class peeps I know in Las Vegas. And more so with white people than with other races( minus the mormans, which there is a ton of in Vegas). Most couples I know have at most 2 kids, but mostly 1 child . Some have 0 and aren't going to have any. Kids are expensive. And most posters on here have a very dark idea of the future. Do you want to bring kids into the future? I just got married this year, and Ms. Vegas wants a child next year, and I do too... but its a scary future to face. Very scary!

J in Vegas

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:13 | 3506784 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Don't worry J when the Hoover damn is unable to generate power in 3 years due to low water levels, you'll find solar power becomes more practical as your costs for power triple.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 04:32 | 3507084 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

...and triple again after the nation's power plants are auctioned off to pay down the unpayable debt.

Hold on tight.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 13:21 | 3507667 master of the u...
master of the universe's picture

Not after they opened that huge solar farm out here last week...

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 06:11 | 3507124 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

I grow pesticide free, and the bugs definetly get there share of the food. 

tip:  if you are committed to being pesticide free, you have to let nature work for you by introducing plants that attract beneficial insects (ladybugs, wasps, etc) that will eat the pests.    think lots of beautiful fragrant colorful flowers.  if the pests get out of hand, you can spray down with a very diluted mix of dr. bronners and water to get back some level of control, but don't roverdo it.

one more thing to consider: pests don't attack healthy plants.   sounds like you need to remineralize your soil.   grab some azomite, throw it into your compost bin with some worms & food/garden waste, let it run through a cycle, and sprinkle over your garden.    for a quick boost, make some compost tea out of it, and do a spray once a week at dawn or dusk.

hope that helps.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 11:09 | 3507428 J in Vegas
J in Vegas's picture

I do have those bugs back there in the garden. Its a bug fest, I just bought some lady bugs to eat the aphids. I got praying mantis back there, spiders, stuff like that. The worst offender is the tomato worms ( big green worms with the unicorn horn on it). Those can do some serious damage.

And on the plants, they are healthy, its just the growing enviroment is rough . It can be down to singl digit humidity  levels, and be 100+ degrees outside. It's a harsh growing zone here in the desert.

But thanks for the info.


Mon, 04/29/2013 - 08:37 | 3509489 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

j, not sure if you'll read this, but if so, your harsh environment is all the more reason for the dust.    not to knock your plants, but they need to be more healthy than normal to survive the stress.    bugs pick up on a certain vibratory frequency that sick plants give off (healthy plants don't, and the bugs literally can't "see" them).    

you need to raise super-veggies, mate.   it's totally possible tho.   check out the use of ORMUS in agriculture.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 11:10 | 3507429 J in Vegas
J in Vegas's picture


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:48 | 3506297 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Pretty simple, but I guess not simply enough for PhD types: birth rates won't decline until living standards have risen considerably, it takes generations.

The living standards won't be rising that much, but they will rise enough, in a cycle of course, for smaller population booms (and 'busts').

The reason they have many children is the same reason everyone else used to up until 30-300 years ago depending on location. Some of the kids will die, inevitably, and the rest are the parents' retirement and insurance plans.

There is no "common sense" involved whatsoever, ever, anywhere; the calculation is "breed or die", for those for whom food does not magically grow, neatly packaged, on store shelves. What a disgustingly bourgeois attitude that betrays on your part. Ho-hum. "No matter what" ... as if to suggest every last variable has been tweaked to either extreme and back. Please. Africa is still a hellhole. Its climate is not conducive to large human populations and never has been in the entire history of the Homo genus.

Expecting such things to turn around in the space of half a century is the height of idiocy, as is telling African women they should have fewer children while they enjoy a standard of living comparable to the Europe of the 1300s. 

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 17:02 | 3511272 mkkby
mkkby's picture

The problem once again is socialism.  Quit feeding them and they'll live sustainably at the population/birth level that's natural to the surroundings.  The do gooders are the cause of their over population and suffering.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:47 | 3506615 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

India has had the same problem too and hasn't brought down their population growth rate fast enough over the past 20-25 years even though it has notably decreased.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:28 | 3506820 cape_royds
cape_royds's picture

The African countries are lagging, but just think: twenty years ago people were worrying about Egypt.

Egypt is a very important example to consider. Why? Because it's a case where there wasn't any rapid rise in living standards. There wasn't any rapid rise in educational levels. There wasn't any major improvement in the status of women. Egyptian society is more religious than secular. Nor was there any major government programme to try to control people's fertility.

None of the usual explanations for declining fertility seemed to apply to Egypt. Nobody would have bet any money on a big drop in fertility rates in Egypt. Nevertheless fertility rates in Egypt dropped drastically, and in a single generation.

The Egyptian people have sent every honest demographer back to the drawing board.

So don't write off Africa. They might surprise us all yet.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 13:32 | 3507708 master of the u...
master of the universe's picture

It's those pyramids you see, making everyone feel good.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:47 | 3505809 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

I’m very happy to see the fall of this civilization. I will survive thru the turmoil. The new system will not be the one sold on MSM TV. In order to move forth, one has to bleed off crony capitalism. Make sure you know the dead-on system, don’t get caught up in propaganda. This divide and conquer globalization game has gone tits up. Make this post go viral. 


Sun, 04/28/2013 - 13:37 | 3507715 master of the u...
master of the universe's picture

Even the ages of free-thinking goes in cycles, it seems. Just takes a while for people to wake up, and also to fall asleep again I would assume.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:49 | 3505816 gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

This is more Club of Rome  malthusian BS.  He wants to being on the demographic disaster the Chinese have set up for themselves.  An inevitable reform of the decadent, growth stiffling institutions and social attitudes is coming very soon now.  Technologic advance will enable the well-adapted to thrive, not just in energy but bio-engineering and many other areas.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:07 | 3505842 centerline
centerline's picture

Malthusian BS.  That is funny.  You know that Marxism was used to call Mathlus out as well?  And to some degree, it is correct.  But more like prolonging the inevitable.  A modification to the concept as opposed to a true rebuttal.  Same as tech.

Malthus made the mistake of being short sighted and linear in his thinking.  But the general premise that growth cannot continue forever is about as solid as it gets to those of us who some understanding of physics.  Unless "well adapted" means developing the ability to leave this planet, there are limits.


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:35 | 3505901 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Lol, mankind has ALWAYS exhibited the ability to adapt and find new resources to replace scarce older ones.

Mankind went from scarcity of bronze to iron, then to steel, then to plastics and now to carbon fiber. We went from the horse, to the mule to the car to the locomotive to the airplane to the space station.

Mankind has no bounds, and no limits as long as we have enough people to work on the problems we face.

The pro-death Malthusian over-population obsessives want to reduce the number of human minds that can work on the problems that face mankind and they are ignorant, full of hubris, confused as to the pertinent facts and will be a disaster to us all. THEY are destroying their civilization from the inside with their love of death, self-destruction and evil vices of every sort imaginable.

I wish them all the success in the world so that my own can build on their ashes.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:48 | 3505926 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Seriously, people talk about the end of oil (cheap oil more accurately), and yeah, things would change.  Farming would change.  Living in the suburbs would change.  But its not the end of the world.  People can still ride their bike from place to place, or God forbid, walk.  If deemed efficient, animals could be used for labor.  They used to sail the seas using wind, rumor has it.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:57 | 3505949 centerline
centerline's picture

No, no, no.  You are supposed to yell "to infinity and beyond!"

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:07 | 3505938 centerline
centerline's picture

Confused hippie bullshit is all I see here.

ALWAYS = FOREVER?  Otherwise it is a delusion.

Malthusian thinking is not pro death either.  Jesus.  Where the hell is all that coming from?  The rampant negative generalizations?  Dude, seek help.

The concept here is to recognize that there is a problem so something can be done about it.  Something constructive.  Even Stephen Hawkins is saying that we if don't find a way to get off this planet, we might not be around in a thousand years.  Well, at some point our sun poops out, so even at the rate there is an ultimate limit.

Now, on the death thing.  There is something else to realize.  That it takes time to develop tech and affect change.  If the window of opportunity is passed and we are on a different course for numerous reasons, the recognition that bad things most likely will happen as a result of NOT paying attention to the perpetual growth bullshit is nothing more than being real.




Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:38 | 3506261 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Malthusian solutions always involve other people dying, but not the Malthusians. Wish they would try to lead by example.

And Stephen Hawkings is a fucking astrophysicist, that doesnt make him an expert on everyfuckingthing.

And tech is developing faster and faster at an exponential pace. Soon it will change technology on a daily and even hourly basis.

There is no PRACTICAL limit to resources for mankind. When we have run out of planets and stars tell me about how we are running out of resources.

The people that want to ration out what 'precious few resources we have' are just a bunch of fucking facists wanting POWER and nothing more than that. The rest is smoke, mirrors and bovine scatology.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:13 | 3506352 centerline
centerline's picture

Between now and our destiny of ruling the galaxy supreme in our intergalactic resource mining vessels through the use of space-folding relay stations there are few wrinkles to be sorted out.  lol.

Yeah, there are some who want to make sure they have resources and do so my denying others the same.  That pretty much sums up human history.

Tech is what we should be doing here.  Seems we agree on that.  In previous posts I voted that we SHOULD built the death star!  ha ha.  Because we would be developing what is necessary to get off this rock and make room for growth.  But, do you see that happening?  Shit, NASA got clobbered.  Space programs are about putting weapons in orbit more than anything else.

Malthus is the reality that we run from.  Every once in awhile it catches us (Easter Island come to mind?).  Pretending like it is wrong, invalid, death obsessed, etc. is just stupid.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:17 | 3506359 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

'Americans' are certainly not running from the malthusian reality.

They are running from the 'american' reality.

Things is that during Malthus'times, consumption by capita was bracketed to 1 to 5, 1 to 10.

Malthus could consider at no costs that one human being consumption equaled another human being consumption.

A luxury that does not exist in this 'american' world. And explains why the 'american' author of the article finds solage in the 'american' mantra of infinite growth...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:25 | 3506375 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

When get starting to interestation in mushroom collection, I had admittings that most mushrooms are not congruent exactly with the picture I had in front of under the eyes. But somehow a few of them were that. That is what is called the fine specimen which gives exhibition the most characterizing features vigorously.

For this poster, is the same: he is the fine specimen of Chinese citizenism citizens.

Duplicity is high and everything is the fault of others, sequence repeated no matter what he is lying at his feet.

Even Chinese citizenism citizens should learn that among them, some embody better the Maopectate spirit and bear with it.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:55 | 3506617 Tom of the Missouri
Tom of the Missouri's picture


I had to read quite a few post here to finally find one that fit my own views.  I suggest everyone also read some Julian Simon on the matter of running out of energy and other stuff due to over population. Bottom line:  It never happens folks if the people are free to find and implement other solutions.  A good example is the people trying to implement the fracking invention who are bing stymied at every turn by the government. Human freedom is the key.  Civilizations can die but it is rarely due to changes in population or resources.  It is because the people lose sight of the values, morals, laws and the system that made their civilization prosper and instead install a system of stasis, decadance, corruption, tyranny and sloth.  It happend to Rome and it is happening to us. It happend to Great Britain very quickly in the mid 20th century and it happend to the Soviet Union.  At the same time Hong Kong, Japan and Singapore prospered with no natural resources.   The difference: Freedom.   With the theft and tyranny represented by unlimited money printing, crony capitilism, the corruption of half the people living of govt. checks with no productive work expected and massively expanded government rules and regulations on every aspect of life, what made us successful, which is the opposite of the afformentioned list,  is rapidly sending our civilization down a rat hole, and it has nothing to do with the availability of resources now or in the future.  You can also add in the decadent distractions of the Hollywood and TV industries (including the "MSM news")  as the current version of Roman Circuses to distract the masses from what is really going on and preventing them from seeing the solutions.   It surely seems we have reached the end at least of the United States as we once knew it.  Despite the many flaws in their efforts and the inevitible setbacks they will encounter, it seems certain that China is rapidly replacing us as the dominating civilization on Earth.  Whether they can long endure is an open question. They are successful of course due to the massive increase in economic freedom and the work ethic of their former peasants with their new found freedom which was implemented under Deng 3 decades ago.  We of course have been rapidly going in the other direction.     Nigel Ferguson has written that when civilizations die, it normally happens quickly.  No one knows when of course, but I think it will be soon for that great experiment implemented by our founding fathers.  Benjamin Franklin when ask what they had given us in Philidelphia 200 plus years ago said "A republic if you can keep it".  I think we are close to losing it.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 21:13 | 3506645 malek
malek's picture

+Infinity   Fantastic to find someone who read Julian Simon with an open mind!!!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 23:37 | 3506900 centerline
centerline's picture

LSD seems to have done you folks well.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:51 | 3506620 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Is this what I call the 'technology = magic' crowd and there are an awful lot of PhD economists who I graduated with who think this way.  As long as you put the right incentive structure in place, throw enough capital and talented people at it, and presto you overcome the problem in the intermediate/long-term.  If only innovation was so neat and orderly. 

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 21:46 | 3506711 Tom of the Missouri
Tom of the Missouri's picture

Who ever said it was neat and orderly?  The people that seek neat and orderly solutions to everything are the central planners of every stripe that are taking over our lives.  They are known as politicians for life, environmental statist, crony capitalist, adademics, Marxist, the Bush family, the Obama Administration.   What creates solutions and progress in civilization is allowing the masses to be free and incentivized to find solutions without having to bow and pay bribes to government bureaucrats and politicians. The only incentives needed is the ability to keep the fruits of their labor and not have it siezed or prevented.  Out of the millions a few brilliant solutions almost always find the way forward if only allowed to do so.   Fracking is a recent example from millions of productive, wealth creating and life enhancing ideas before it,  but of course the statist environmentalist, competing crony capitalist, assorted bureacrats and their supporting politicians are are trying to kill it.  The doomsaying resource counters never take into consideration new technologies that don't exist when they are counting.

Adam smith talked about the invisible hand of capitilism.   He was talking about the millions of free minds focused on solutions to their and others problems in seeking better lives for themselves, not a horde of self serving Washington bureacrats, politicians or central planner phd economist that imagine they can design a new orderly and planned world. Smith put it best in his book The Theory of Moral Sentiments his Chess board analogy 

"The man of system, on the contrary, is apt to be very wise in his own conceit; and is often so enamoured with the supposed beauty of his own ideal plan of government, that he cannot suffer the smallest deviation from any part of it. He goes on to establish it completely and in all its parts, without any regard either to the great interests, or to the strong prejudices which may oppose it. He seems to imagine that he can arrange the different members of a great society with as much ease as the hand arranges the different pieces upon a chess-board. He does not consider that the pieces upon the chess-board have no other principle of motion besides that which the hand impresses upon them; but that, in the great chess-board of human society, every single piece has a principle of motion of its own, altogether different from that which the legislature might chuse to impress upon it. If those two principles coincide and act in the same direction, the game of human society will go on easily and harmoniously, and is very likely to be happy and successful. If they are opposite or different, the game will go on miserably, and the society must be at all times in the highest degree of disorder."

In short, the incentive system you deride or don't even consider, is the chaos of millions of people seeking the solutions to problems.   I agree though that a few people with money or not, will not likely find the answers.  Think Bill gates solving world hunger and disease vs Bill Gates writing a few small PC programs.  Hundreds of millions or billions of people though if left free to experiement while serving their own needs will almost always solve all problems, but only if left free from the central planners to do so.  Silicon valley has been successful because it is not people with money deciding to solve a specific problem.  What it really is is a place where a few of the millions with good ideas go to find the money that is looking for ways to make more.

I certainly agree that capital should not be allocated on the basis of a politically appointed Phd's.  That is what happend with Solondra and all those other failed alternative energy projects that were going to save us.  That is what is happening with the Fed.  In the energy dept. the allocators were the phd's Holdren and Chu.  The result could have been easily predicted. We all know the Phd at the Fed.   Fracking on the other hand was invented by hundreds of unknown people without Phd's exerimenting in Texas.  The ideas were tried and then the money found the idea, just like in Silicon valley.




Sat, 04/27/2013 - 23:42 | 3506905 centerline
centerline's picture

So much solid philosphy fatallly flawed by a lack of understanding of physical science in this thread.  I agree with you here (+1) - but where folks attempt to bridge this into defiance of even the basic laws of thermodynamics... well, that is where it falls apart.  Finite world = finite resources = limits to growth.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 21:27 | 3506681 Sparkey
Sparkey's picture

God Bless you Jim, you are a true believer! Can belief conger up a new reality? If anyone can, you can Jim, make no mistake, It is a heavy burden, if you fail mankind will be destroyed by it's own inventitivness, if you suceed, we enter a new age of renewed confidence and optimism as we face the future, exceptional people with their exceptionalism restored, there would be no more beautiful sight in the cosmos. No matter the outcome,,,.. thank you for trying!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:36 | 3506262 MiltonFriedmans...
MiltonFriedmansNightmare's picture

History is closer to being a circular function than a linear one, hence the concept of the fourth turning was put forth. It is nearly upon us and most likely will be brought about by the financial calamity that ensues when the fiat ponzi pyramid finally collapses. Environmental/energy concerns are spurious in that event.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:51 | 3506312 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Malthus lived in a world where petroleum was a curious but useless liquid that occasionally came out of rocks. He didn't see the petroleum revolution coming, but neither did, basically, anyone else. And today roughly the same proportion of us can see it coming to an end. The rest continue to predict growth without boundaries or limits.

He understood the paradigm of history up to that point.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:38 | 3506601 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yes, centerline, Malthusian conclusions were explicitly based on two ASSUMPTIONS.

I have collected some thoughts on that topic in this thread:

Overshoot in a nutshell

That thread starts with a link to this article, regarding Malthus being too "short-sighted and linear in his thinking:"

Overshoot in a nutshell (Malthus was an optimist)

 By David M. Delaney

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 21:00 | 3506634 malek
malek's picture

You have no clue what you're talking about.

How is infinite growth possible:
- I think nobody can declare in seriousness that we will one day run out of things to still invent or discover.
- That implies there will always be new things to build or create.

Now cue the usual "but we will run out energy/material/space" calls!
- At least some of those things will be more efficient than existing ones. So the replacement of previous versions will free up some energy/material/space.
- Generally technological progress over time increases efficiency. Unless we run out of possible efficiency increases (see point 1) then we can still grow from a functionality point of view (and therefore also from an economical perspective) without the need of energy/material/space also increasing.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 21:40 | 3506691 centerline
centerline's picture

Ever hear of entropy?

You need to start by looking into the basic laws of thermodynamics.  A little science to go with fantasy novels would do some good.

And your last paragraph says what?  Holy delusions batman.  Your killing your own argument - please explain how we "functionally" grow in a finite petri dish after tech efficiences have maxed out?  The only way this happens is if we get off this rock.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 22:11 | 3506778 malek
malek's picture

Tech efficiencies have maxed out - says who? Go read my first point again, please.

Basic laws of thermodynamics are completely meaningless if not talking about closed systems. Our Earth happens to be located near a massive energy singularity which is forecasted to exist for the next 3 billion years.

Any other concerns?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 23:30 | 3506896 centerline
centerline's picture

Did.  Apparently you did not read mine.  Never said they were maxed out.  I asked for an explanation for your absurd notion regading "functional" growth in absence of tech efficiences.  Your words, not mine.

But, now that you are attempting at tossing out laws of thermodynamics, I think I would rather you not answer.  This conversation is clearly beyond your capabilities.

Aren't the folks over at Godlike Productions missing you already?  

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 23:50 | 3506914 malek
malek's picture

Where did I toss out the laws of thermodynamics? I said they don't apply here as the system you are looking at is not closed - and if you define the universe as a closed system, then we are somewhere in the process of equaling out, which started 12 billion years ago (or so) and will likely take quite a bit longer from now on.
Maybe for the challenged I should have written "don't apply in a meaningful way" just like the law of relativity doesn't apply in a meaningful way to you riding in a car, or airplane for that matter.

your absurd notion regading "functional" growth in absence of tech efficiences

Please explain to me where I said that in the following exact quote:
"Unless we run out of possible efficiency increases (see point 1) then we can still grow from a functionality point of view (and therefore also from an economical perspective) without the need of energy/material/space also increasing."
May you have overlooked the "Unless"?

Already moving towards ad hominem?

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 09:41 | 3507309 centerline
centerline's picture

So, saying the laws of thermodynamics don't apply is not tossing them out?  These are basic physical realities that govern what the article was talking about!  All thing move towards thermodynamic equilibrium... even our Sun, which by your own writing has a FINITE life.  Now, step down a little to a finite planet and apply the same rationale.  Unless we get off this rock, there are limits to growth.  Period.  Even if we get off this rock, there may still be limits - but who the heck knows?  Likely we will never know that answer.  But, if we don't start trying to do something here, we will for sure reach limits... between now and when our sun goes red.

Oops on overlooking the Unless.  My bad for sure.  But, still wrong.  The world's current systems rely on exponential growth.  Ponzi style.  Human nature Malek.  Your overlooking human nature.  You and the other bunny huggers here are living in a space I really appreciate (sincerely, really) but is unrealistic.  We are savage species that has yet to really get the I/E (intellect over emotion) equation under control.

Give it up on the ad hominem.  That is pretty much part and parcel of ZH.  Is the spice in the chili!  Just look an Anon with his "Americanism" rants.


Sun, 04/28/2013 - 12:00 | 3507499 malek
malek's picture

Try to wrap your head around the fact that economic growth does not necessarily mean using (overall) more energy, material, space. You have been manipulated in taking that as an irrefutable fact, but it's not.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:47 | 3505817 The Dancer
The Dancer's picture

Personally, waiting for accolades is not the right way to think. And that's the major problem. And, yes, it's reinforced by nature and nurture, but it will not carry us to the finish line. I challenge you to look deeper within yourself for a better answer...because it's there, not in the heart of darkness, but in the mere love of life itself. Only a selfless approach can conquer it.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:00 | 3505827 centerline
centerline's picture

Human nature is constant.  So, it is external factors that shape the outcome.  We are in a topping process.  Forget a crop or two away from starvation.  Shit, everything now is JIT based on very complex supply chains.  Major cities would go zombie in a matter of days should supply chains break.

As part of this topping process, there is stress galore, dual incomes, materialism, etc..  Everything seems to be complicated.  Now we have government lurking at every corner wanting to regulate and tax.  Healthcare being out of control and getting worse by the minute it seems is a real family killer as well.  All of this says more about family size reduction than any willful change.  The term "voluntary" is hardly correct in the broader sense.  It is pressure.  On the welfare side, mo kids = mo money.


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:59 | 3505831 q99x2
q99x2's picture

How about seceding from the Federal Government: that should extend life for a while no?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:02 | 3505834 Blue Vervain
Blue Vervain's picture

Any decline in birthrates among industrialised populations, be they western or asiatic, will simply be made up for in 3rd world population expansion and continuing migration. By removing one from the gene pool you simply facilitate the expansion of the other.



Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:08 | 3505981 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

For 'americans', the group is all.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:14 | 3505996 prains
prains's picture

blobbing and oozing from his AnAnalogousAnus

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 07:47 | 3507177 Blue Vervain
Blue Vervain's picture

Sadly not, it is individualism that is proving their downfall.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:01 | 3505837 Prince Eugene o...
Prince Eugene of Savoy's picture

...second law of thermodynamics imposes its will: enough of the higher forms of convenient compact energy like coal and oil will have been converted into heat, waste, and especially carbon dioxide to ruin our climate in particular and our environment in general.


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:09 | 3505847 centerline
centerline's picture

Elaborate please.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:31 | 3506486 akak
akak's picture

And yet the worldwide, century-long trend of melting icecaps and glaciers on every continent and both polar regions continues to progress and even accelerate.  Interesting.

Thu, 05/02/2013 - 13:54 | 3523187 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Dude, we came out of a miniIce Age around 1830 and so of course temps have been rising on average for the last century.

But that might end now if we are starting into a long over due new miniIce Age.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 23:32 | 3506698 centerline
centerline's picture

You missed the point.  This isn't about global warming.  2nd Law of Thermo is a different subject.


Malek missed it too.  What is this, liberal arts night at ZH?

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 12:11 | 3507530 malek
malek's picture

Yep, so here we go - luckily you are stating clearly that you are talking about the second law, so you cannot later wiggle out when you get cornered argumentatively!

So I am waiting on your clear response what meaningful implications the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has for us here on Earth, as long as we have the Sun's fusion processes showering us with energy for the next 3 billion years or so. And therefore providing a constant energy gradient -the opposite of equilibrium-, if you allow me setting a "limit" of 3 billion years as equal to "constant" for all human means and purposes!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:05 | 3505840 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

This is the first time I have read anything that views declining fertility rates as a positive development (which it is). The oft repeated beneficent economic growth mantra (as spewed by the billionaire's mouthpiece the msm) is always equated with an attendant growing population of competing peasant workers, pension contributors, and future military fodder. It is sickening to watch so I don't.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:12 | 3505856 Misean
Misean's picture

The only reason for that "increasing population" argument is that the purveyors of the argument are running ponzi schemes.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:25 | 3505877 akak
akak's picture


I have thought exactly that, if mostly only subconsciously, for many years now.

The myopic view among economists that "more is always better", even and especially when it comes to population growth, has always struck me as a particularly virulent form of insanity.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:51 | 3505932 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

I heard peasants who survived the Black Death did well for themselves.  Everything is relative, but in this case, life after was at least slightly better than life during, or life before.


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:43 | 3506095 YC2
YC2's picture

Labor shortage = higher wages. Not the best way to come into a raise, though.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:18 | 3506361 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Yep, they were at the start of what would turn out of the 'american' middle class.

A disaster in the making.

'Americans': better them than me.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:27 | 3506377 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Get a grip about your fabled past or produce a more satisfying streak of propaganda.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:39 | 3506487 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

You fucking idiot, the Black Death was not at the start of American history,

Grow a fucking brain or steal or borrow one.

You are pathetic, dumbass.

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