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What Is Killing Europe

Tyler Durden's picture


From Mark Grant, author of Out Of The Box, a follow up to our  "A Few Quick Reminders Why NOTHING Has Been Fixed In Europe (And Why LTRO 3 Is Not Coming)" from March 2012.

What is Killing Europe
The bigger the real-life problems, the greater the tendency for people to retreat into a reassuring fantasy-land of abstract theory and technical manipulation.
Many people have little or no understanding of what is presently taking place in Europe. This is because it is reported nowhere, discussed in public by no one and carefully hidden in the data supplied by the European Central Bank.
What I will discuss today is the prime mover, in my opinion, of the destabilization of the European economies and yet, like the debt to GDP ratios on the Continent; just because it isn’t counted does not mean that it does not exist. I will endeavor to explain it as simply as possible.
A bank in some European country such as Spain lends money but the collateral, Real Estate or commercial loans, are going bad. The bank then securitizes a large pool of this collateral and pledges it at the ECB to receive cash. In many cases to take the pool the country has to guarantee the debt. So Spain, in my example, guarantees the loan package which is then pledged at the ECB and is a contingent liability and which is not reported in the debt to GDP ratio of the country but nowhere else that you will find either. “Hidden” would be the appropriate word.
Then as time passes the loans get even worse so that the ECB demands cash or more collateral because they will not be taking the hit; thank you very much. The bank cannot afford to post more collateral so that the country, Spain, must post the collateral and add an additional guarantee for the new loan or they must post cash which is oftentimes the case. 
Consequently as time passes and more cash has been spent the country, Spain, begins to run out of capital and the 10.6% deficit figure, that Spain announced recently, is not anywhere close to the actual reality so that they will get forced to officially borrow more money from the ESM as the sovereign guarantee of bank debt becomes unsustainable.
What is happening is then becoming clearer as the nations of Europe are running out of capital as they endeavor to support their banking institutions. The breadth and depth of this problem is nowhere to be found but the effect is unmistakable.  The European nations are going bankrupt.
The problem is that Europe pretends to be asleep. The difficulty then is that you cannot wake them up.
The longer that time passes; the worse the situation. The countries cannot afford to pay their known bills. The banking crisis worsens. The debt at the ECB must get paid which worsens the finances of the sovereigns. It is a death spiral unless the economies pick-up and experience real growth which is just not happening. Soon the problems will become bad enough that they will hit the fan once again and this time; there will be real Hell to pay.
You can expect this for Spain, Greece, Portugal, Cyprus, Slovenia, Ireland et al and in short order. I have used Spain as the example today because their stated 10.6% economic decline is only a fraction of their real issue. Again, what is not counted or what is not stated does not ease the burden of what must be paid. They may proclaim fantasy but they are living in reality. The famous windmills are becoming unhinged.
I have no issue with myths. I just have difficulty when governments fly them as banners of truth


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Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:44 | 3505388 Zer0head
Zer0head's picture

What is Killing Europe?

soon it will be birdflu

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:47 | 3505393 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

Another European killer will be a demographics implosion. You need young people to run your country. Gramps can't do it alone.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:54 | 3505407 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

Sustainability is death to a system fundamentally constructed on a foundation of infinite exponential growth. IMHO that is the kernel of all our problems, top to bottom. More technology needed? Nope. A rethink of the assumptions of our entire social system? Probably, but that scares the shit out of me, knowing who will step forward and volunteer to engineer a sustainable world.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:10 | 3505444 11b40
11b40's picture

Engineer a sustainable world?  Ha Ha.

That was a joke, right?

A sustainable world will be engineered one day, but it won't be men that do least not by design.  By accident, maybe, when the wrong finger hits the nuclear trigger, but more likely Mother Nature will bring pestilence (bird flu, black plague, etc.), or severe climate change that induces famine, or some other nasty surprise for human kind.


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:17 | 3505448 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

what the ecb needs is an army or swat team or something

that way it can go door to door and collect what it is owed


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:30 | 3505458 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



The ECB's 1% reserve ratio will be one of the nails in Europe's coffin.


Come on, Mario, let us see you try to cheat the devil with a 0% reserve ratio.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:30 | 3505464 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Someone over there must have divided by ZERO!!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:40 | 3505484 Klazy Plick
Klazy Plick's picture

Western Civilization was a "White People" bubble.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:17 | 3505564 autofixer
autofixer's picture

Safely, Just call the Boston P.D.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:12 | 3505652 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:20 | 3505450 nmewn
nmewn's picture

She's not a very moral person is she? ;-)

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:31 | 3505467 11b40
11b40's picture

I believe the word is amoral.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:54 | 3505512 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I was playing off of PUD's constant anti-gold rant that somehow she is, that we (by being creatures of nature) are "poisoning the planet." Of course she is amoral, she doesn't think or plan or feel the pain or loss associated with lava flowing through someones living room or hurricanes or earthquakes.

She invented mercury, not us ;-)

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:08 | 3505532 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



Indeed. 'Mother Nature' is entirely indifferent to our existence.



Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:09 | 3505534 nmewn
nmewn's picture


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:34 | 3505601 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

We are 'mother nature' along with all other living and non living systems in the universe.  Many 'creations' of 'mother nature' have come before us, many will come after.  As you say, there is no "care' or 'morality' in the systems of existence.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:04 | 3505636 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Mother Nature may be the ultimate "bitch" on her bad days, but we are told by ancient shepherds that God loves us.  Let's not forget that this deity also made all the other wonderful creatures:



Sun, 04/28/2013 - 09:12 | 3507276 Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

"She invented mercury, not us ;-)"

 ..but She need humans to make plastic (George Carlin)

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:05 | 3505645 saveUSsavers
saveUSsavers's picture

You are correct, and robotics is soon going to replace burger-flippers. Even min wage jobs will be vanishing. We need a discussion of tech replacing those jobs, but corporations live for one thing.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:13 | 3506461 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture




White Collar Holler
(Nigel Russell)

Well, I rise up every morning at a quarter to eight
Some woman who's my wife tells me not to be late
I kiss the kids goodbye, I can't remember their names
And week after week, it's always the same

And it's Ho, boys, can't you code it, and program it right
Nothing ever happens in the life of mine
I'm hauling up the data on the Xerox line

Then it's code in the data, give the keyboard a punch
Then cross-correlate and break for some lunch
Correlate, tabulate, process and screen
Program, printout, regress to the mean

Then it's home again, eat again, watch some TV
Make love to my woman at ten-fifty-three
I dream the same dream when I'm sleeping at night
I'm soaring over hills like an eagle in flight

Someday I'm gonna give up all the buttons and things
I'll punch that time clock till it can't ring
Burn up my necktie and set myself free
Cause no one's gonna fold, bend or mutilate me.

Copyright Nigel Russell and dedicated to the city of Bramalea,
Ontario, Canada.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:20 | 3505452 Colonel Walter ...
Colonel Walter E Kurtz's picture

They have some young people and many are unemployed (as is the case in Spain and I think Greece). The solution the TPTB are probably considering is that if they could just get rid of gramps and his old age overhead (pension, healthcare, high pay if working for the gubmint for years, etc...) things could get back on track. Get rid of a few of the young and much more of the old, and maybe things could work out.

Unfortunately, many know of what I dare not speak, but on the bright side......think about all the broken windows to spur growth. Ugh!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:45 | 3505461 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture



WW3: the final QE. These are the voyages of the starship BEnterprise. Its 100-year mission: to explore strange new fiats, to seek out new debt and enslave new civilizations, to boldly go where no QE has gone before.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:14 | 3505552 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

I don't know about "where no QE has gone before" as Zimbabwe has set a pretty high bar. But I guess we will find out soon enough.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:03 | 3505638 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Amen to that.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:18 | 3505570 yogibear
yogibear's picture

That's ok, they have loads of middle easterners to take over. Their flooding it.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 00:50 | 3506979 Nassim
Nassim's picture

Half the young people are without a proper job - so I don't think having more of them is going to solve anything.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:57 | 3505408 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

IMF and the ECB is killing Europe with debt based money.

They need to change to a system using debt free money that does not require interest payments to remain in circulation.

This would eliminate the need to compound the money supply and corresponding debt side of it constantly to keep up with interest rate payments.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:09 | 3505435 machineh
machineh's picture

One could add that fractional reserve banks have been going under for centuries, just as leveraged stock and options and futures traders do.

As long as some of the dimmest bulbs on the planet are government-licensed to speculate on 10-to-1 (if not 100-to-1) margin, repeated crack-ups and crises are GUARANTEED.

This is not a bug in fractional reserve banking. It's a design feature.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:13 | 3505549 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture This time of capital can never be drpreciated though it can fall in price. To me that is gold's connection to reality-as defaults soar, unemployment becomes institutionalized, protesters swamp the cities, etc. "if the bank still has gold it can go bankrupt and still become the bank again." there should be a law against a bank pledging gold as collateral for anything. The euro note? REALLY? Say hello to the IMF Europe.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:17 | 3505567 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

The insanely interesting thing about using Gold as a currency is that instead of it's purchasing power going down like Fiat it goes up. This however is incredibly bad if you are a Banker.

Perhaps we do not need Bankers.....hummmmmm.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:27 | 3505590 BullionTweet
BullionTweet's picture

Design Failure!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:28 | 3505663 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

You are correct.  It was a deliberate "feature", as expressed by Lord Rothschild himself in this quote:

"The few who could understand the system will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of the people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests."

Well, we have been -- and going by stats -- still are the "great body of the people mentally incapable of comprehending...".  As we discover how it really works, we think that it's a "flaw" in the design, implies a mistake on the part of its designers and absence of malice.  But what you have in fact, is intended malice.  Which also deliberately breaks various of the 10 Commandments, and are broken by a supposedly God-fearing (hah!) or God-following (hah!) group.

Last time I checked, deliberately scheming and breaking the Commandments "Thou shall not covet..." and "Thou shall not steal" was NOT "doing God's work", Mr. 'Bankfine'.  The old penalty -- at the very Minimum -- was loss of all stolen itmes plus additional penalties, which may included public stoning.

It's time to start stoning bankers and all financial thieves.  Not shooting -- that would be too fast and kind -- but stoning.  Publicly.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:01 | 3505732 olto
olto's picture


What is there to comprehend?

I gave all my gold to family members in August of 2011 and was happy to get rid of it---they did me a favor by taking it off of my program. Since then, however, I have accumulated more capital than I need and, now, I have to buy more gold---I don't see anything better to buy.

This money thing is so complicated----waiting, waiting, and, always---------WAITING!

I don't think I will get it this time at $800-$900/oz----but, maybe $1150/oz will come by-----

who can say a word about it?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:46 | 3505804 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

You're beautiful:  A true and fiduciary financial planner.  Multi-generational too.  Cool!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:11 | 3505445 GVB
GVB's picture


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:55 | 3505410 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

Central banks.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:02 | 3505422 resurger
resurger's picture

hi zerohead, am in China atm.. there is nothing of that sort
ps i didnt junk you

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:16 | 3505447 11b40
11b40's picture

I am in the US, and guess what?  There is no flooding where I am.  Not even rain.

Does that mean no where in the US is experiencing flooding?

Are you saying there is no bird flu in China?  If so, you would be wrong.

By the way, are you eating a lot of chicken in your travels?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:56 | 3505511 resurger
resurger's picture

if you divide 130/1,800,000,000,000 how much do you fucking get? don't sound like  billgate who wants this shit to be epidemic like SARS or pigs flu so that pharmas starts making billions. and no, a flood is not fucking contageous. if you have metal balls, then maybe you should come down here and travel the underground metro with millons of people with no mask on like i do.and yes i eat kungfu, kfc, and fried chicken feet where they clip their nails in a will probably die from the smell before you catch the h7n9 bitch.




Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:11 | 3505541 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

Why so angry?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:19 | 3505572 resurger
resurger's picture

China smells bad lol

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:44 | 3505390 Carpathia
Carpathia's picture

"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength"  Plus ca change.....

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:45 | 3505394 Debugas
Debugas's picture

pure criminality

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:50 | 3505398 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Bail-ins Bitchez, coming soon to a western nation near you !!!

Got Gold ???

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:01 | 3505399 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture



Sorry... people... for the brevity of comment articulation there...

Somebody, yesterday, decided to use that, SOLELY, as a rebuttal argument for a francis_sawyer comment...

I thought I'd try it out for size... I'm hoping that I can just play 'TETRIS' on my Gameboy for the next 180 minutes & sill put forth the INVOICE for 3 billable hours...

After all, my time is precious... [movin thru the Cleveland heat]


"Not me baby I'm too precious ~ FUCK OFF"

~Chrissie Hynde


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:09 | 3505442 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

Francis, was laying in bed after eating breakfast, a little hungover and clicked on that link.  I wasn't familiar with that song before and that rocked. Thanks!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:51 | 3505497 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Pretenders. Rock. The. House.


How ironic is that coming from a supposed 'Truth Teller'?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:05 | 3506447 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

"brass in pocket"; modern equivalent = bitcoin in wallet!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:50 | 3505402 Dareconomics
Dareconomics's picture

What is killing Europe is the Euro.  Note Portugal:

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:56 | 3505406 pcrs
pcrs's picture

Would be nice to understand why Spanish interest rates are coming down.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:55 | 3505411 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

Could not be because of official intervention in the bond market, no no...

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:00 | 3505417 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

its because the interst rate on monetized debt is zero (its banknotes!!!!!)

and in the interests (sic) of the return to the bankrupt 70's

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:31 | 3505596 BullionTweet
BullionTweet's picture

Japan carry trade into EU bonds

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:59 | 3505414 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

ah yes...but Reinhardt and Rogoff are spreadsheet challenged, so all Spain has to do is copy the US and keep running up massive fiscal deficits to get more collateral that the ECB can monetize! 

we can then see the full benefit of Krugman's advice..nobody pays taxes, the government issues debt and the ECB buys it!

simplez! (insert meerkat noise here)

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:02 | 3505429 PubliusTacitus
PubliusTacitus's picture


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:33 | 3505604 BullionTweet
BullionTweet's picture

Please become informed.


DEBT TO GDP REBUTTAL- Reinhart and Rogoff: Responding to Our Critics:

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:03 | 3506442 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

dropping outliers sounds like a LIBOR rate fixing process

look I have nothing against the paper put forward by R&R, they have degrees in the bleeding obvious after all

it seems to me that the problem lies in that "gravitas" should not just be apportioned to academics.

how hard is it to say that when the cost of debt exceeds the cost of welfare/miltarism, leaving no room for discretionary government spending, a country is pretty fucked?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 10:58 | 3505418 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

"I have no issue with myths. I just have difficulty when governments fly them as banners of truth"

These times represent the unraveling of myth. As have all other times.

It's gunna hurt.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:01 | 3505424 PubliusTacitus
PubliusTacitus's picture

What is killing Europe?




It's also killing the US. 

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:03 | 3505430 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

exactly..why can't anyone see that if you offer hand-outs people take them, then depend on them, then vote for you? bleh

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:52 | 3505713 JimBowie1958
JimBowie1958's picture

Why cant anyone see? Obviously the grifters in charge DPO see and that is why they are doing this scam on everyone.

The problem is that most people have been conditioned since childhood to be fearful of guilt from anything at all, and so wont do what needs doing because they have this huge conditioned aversion to controversy and resolution.

This shit will have to get much worse before anyone wakes up and I doubt it will be close to a majority even then.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:21 | 3505456 smacker
smacker's picture

Spot on! Socialism is systemic across Europe.

There isn't a socialist political elite in Europe who admits that every 1 billion taken out of the economy thru taxation for govt to spend, is 1 billion less in the hands and pockets of companies and individuals who earned it. As if govt knows better how to spend our money than we do ..... as if.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:37 | 3505480 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin''s picture

+1....great minds think alike

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:10 | 3505547 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

+1 trillion banknotes.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:41 | 3505611 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

It's about what is/isn't scalable. I can hit $2000.00 a week on a forex account. I can't hit $20,000,000.

Socialism works on a micro scale.

It has already failed on a macro scale.


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:18 | 3505750 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

The idea that foraging is better than producing.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:04 | 3505425 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

good to see the central banks are helping out the governments in times of water shortages by adding "liquidity"..banknotes are about as useful..

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:04 | 3505427 centerline
centerline's picture

A common currency but no common debt.  Fail, right there before we even start talking about perpetual growth.

On a sidebar here, the other morning, NPR did touch on the subject of "growth."  It was interesting that someone actually asked the question of why "growth" must always continue.  NPR then proceeded to hatch-job the subject into a growth is necessary, growth is good thing.  Leaves me with mixed feelings.  Was NPR trying to say something without getting bitch-slapped.  Or was is just a straight-up hatchet job.  Interesting.   

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:07 | 3505436 PubliusTacitus
PubliusTacitus's picture

What is this "NPR" you speak of?

Nationalist Progressive Radiofunction?

Nice Psocialist Radicals?

Nyet, Probably Russians?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:14 | 3505554 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



"People's Republic Radio."



Tue, 04/30/2013 - 14:47 | 3514867 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

NPR :: Nation-wide Propagandist Radio


in the land of the endless opportunirty, liberty and freedom :) ... and 'freedom fries' as well

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:07 | 3505437 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

spot on with the first sentence.

growth is now government pwned since the banks have bankrupted them.

corporates could go, but governments need all their productive capacity for taxes and employment, misdirecting the basic idea that you should produce the quality and quantity that people can afford and desire.

socialism is a pervasive evil that discourages growth and sets traps for power drunk politicians and disengenuous show hosts like Jon Stewart.

sick of hearing smart asses saying that mobocracy is right because it seems fair whilst ignoring the thousands of nazi storm troopers who shut down towns looking for a petrifed (and stupid) 19 year old

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:14 | 3505562 css1971
css1971's picture

No it can work. On the assumption that it's OK to allow a nation state within the union to go bankrupt. Which seems to be where they are having a problem.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:04 | 3505433 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Its almost as if they truly believe the unemployed can be taxed on non-existent income and a nations coffers will be made to overflow in order to pay back principle & interest.

The magical thought, that having an unpaid debt, can have the soothing balm of still more debt massaged into the sovereign muscle in order to cure the malady of debt.

Pure insanity.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:21 | 3505454 GVB
GVB's picture

They say that once upon a time, there was an economist that received the nobel prize for promoting this. Those were the days! lol.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:40 | 3505485 nmewn
nmewn's picture


And his "mentor" was at one time called a Lord, for some reason. Keynes & Krugman, arguably, two of the most financially destructive forces on the planet.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:15 | 3505569 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



Hitler, Stalin, Mao: killed millions.

Before all is said and done, Keynes will kill billions...


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:33 | 3505776 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao hardly killed anyone. Their governments killed tens of millions. The problem is government.

Unfortunately, less than one in a hundred can understand that. Many people die from cancer and many people die from government, but people are scared of cancer and embrace government.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:11 | 3505438 GVB
GVB's picture

The key thing people should do is buy gold now and get the hell out of the corrupt banking system. In recent past, we've seen enough examples of what's yet to come for many other countries. I refer to Greece, Cyprus, Spain, etc. Look at it. People all over the world have been consuming goods for money they were never able to earn in the first place. "Money" in a sense reflects your hours of work/labour. Inflation steals that away. Credit removes the discipline of labour in order to be able to purchase various items. Also think about the tremendous amounts of government debt that no person in that country will ever be able to pay back, when measured in hours of labour. Looks like - for governments - there's no other option left than to steal people's money out of their virtual accounts through inflation, additional taxes, capital controls, and so on. This is no fiction anymore, it has already happened and everybody keeps dreaming the same dream that all will eventually turn out to be OK. I suggest to BYPASS FIAT and PURCHASE GOLD.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:07 | 3505439 FieldingMellish
FieldingMellish's picture

60% youth unemployment will find its outlet at some point, somewhere. I would not want to be a politico or banker there when it does.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:22 | 3505762 malek
malek's picture

Not so likely in countries in massive demographic decline: less youth to revolt, and more pensioners to try to protect the status quo (their pensions)

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:15 | 3505441 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

I remember saying back in the day that the deposits needed to become national equity tokens (as these countries have real value as a unit) but the banking "assets" are a fiction and were always a fiction - they are a conduit avenue of extraction.


The debts needed to be declared null and void - a consequence of banks creating loans / deposits for no obvious Physiocratic  reason other then extraction of fleeting oil & (external) labour value.


Give people the keys & deeds to the house - the value can then be based on its real utility - it most cases very little.


A states fortunes should not be tied to banking bits of fluff.

Its role and duty is a maintaince of adequate money supply and also the more general commons.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:29 | 3505462 11b40
11b40's picture

Yep....a bank should be little more than a well regulated utility.  Period.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:21 | 3505582 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

With a fucking iron clad RULE BOOK. Period.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:26 | 3505586 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

I'm going to reply to myself......What the fuck ever happened to private finance? Why in the fuck do we need Banks loaning fucking money especially to industry. Why can't private companies and private citizens do it? Caus' the fucking Banks are IN THE WAY!!!!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:18 | 3505451 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Europeans are killing Europe.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:29 | 3505463 agent default
agent default's picture

Eurocrats are killing Europe.  fixed.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:36 | 3505789 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

An apathetic population is allowing this to happen. Did they run out of pitchforks or something?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:26 | 3505460 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

What is killing Europe? The Euro in it's current format is killing Europe. You can't have a common currency without a central issuing authority to issue debt, and in order to that nations have to give up sovereignty. Instead they want to retain their independence, and be strangled by the currency that is supposed to hold them together. Socialism is killing Europe. The idea that you can forcibly steal from the producers and give to the takers is absurd. Sooner or later you run out of producers then the takers who are used to having everything handed to them tear the place apart. And finally the bankers are killing Europe and the rest of the world. If people don't wake up to what they are doing and hold them accountable they are going to start a war that will slaughter hundreds if millions if not billions.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:31 | 3505465 The Dancer
The Dancer's picture

They will never tolerate such insolence!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:35 | 3505475 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin''s picture

Socialism is killing Europe, that's why the Obowel Movement has embraced European Style Socialism.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:46 | 3505704 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Not quite.  Apparently you and some of your friends are part of the "great body of the people..." cited below, who do NOT understand how the (monetary and fiscal) system really works:

"The few who could understand the system will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of the people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests." -  Lord Rothschild

What you and your friends call "socialism" is the 'great body bearing the burdens of the system' quoted above.  "Socialism" is a red herring.  It's a false flag argument.  Socialism looks completely different in the absence of a Rothschild system (the compounding of debt.  Fiat debt).

Fix the root cause:  The Rothschild model of banking!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:28 | 3505766 malek
malek's picture

Another one of those "if we just had X, then socialism would work just fantastic!" criers  <facepalm>

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:08 | 3505843 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Friend, you need to READ what's there -- and NOT there -- instead of 'projecting'.  All I said was that it would look "different".  I said nothing on whether I agree with it or not.

For the record, w/o the modern banking (Rothschild) system, whatever forms of 'socialism' would be attempted, could not possible grow to a fraction of what we have now.  Unless a country becomes an Empire and lives off the efforts and resources of its colonies.

Also for the record:  I do not subscribe to the Involuntary Socialism that we have today.  This form of socialism is merely a label-of-convenience for... Theft.  

We're getting off topic, but I can imagine that... A truly democratic society (which we are not) would agree by democratic consent to budget a certain portion of its annual budget (which we also do not have) for 'social' programs of Common Good.  This would be akin to a society, club, church group or corporation using a portion of their budget for the common good of its members.  The key/crucial difference to look out for is Voluntary vs. Involuntary forms of budget allocation for Common Good (as defined democratically by its members). 

But getting back on topic... I understand and believe the modern banking system uses their paid-for-politicians to expand the Involuntary Socialism, and use this as the vehicle for increasing the debt size -- and thus the size of the bankers' profits.  Which is what Rothschild was alluding to.

Hope this clears things up.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 17:58 | 3506315 malek
malek's picture

Kirk, you are going in many circles here, let me try to untangle them as I see them:

The poster which you were responding to mainly talked about socialism and made it clear he dislikes it, and you responded that we don't have socialism here (in the US) and it would look different anyway which clearly also can be understood as a defense of socialism (at least from the "accusations" StarTedStackin' had put up) because why point out the difference if it would be just as bad but bad in a different way? And you didn't make the tiniest other negative comment about it.

Back to the point: Trying to say we don't have socialism because we only have socialism for the lower 95% but not for the top 5% (who can pay for tax loophole creation and/or earn money faster than it gets taken away from them) is a philosophical hairsplitting exercise that gets us nowhere.
I have moved from Europe to the US some years ago and was astounded how far the socialist welfare state had already progressed in the US (very much contrary to what the left-leaning European press still spews), and under Obummer we might close the remaining gap to European Style Socialism. So StarTedStackin' is right on target.

To your other point: "budgeted involuntary socialism" is a oxymoron as the budget gets funded by taxes which by definition are not voluntary.
The only true voluntary help for the poor were almshouses and charity hospitals. They were destroyed (made obsolete) by politician handouts (Welfare, EMTALA), paid for by involuntary taxes.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 00:56 | 3506983 snblitz
snblitz's picture

John Locke's Second Treatise on Government defines the voluntary social order quite concisely.  This was the original basis of the USofA.  No compulsion is required at all to establish  the social order.

Many people reply "well I wasn't there to agree at the founding.".  There is no need for you to agree as John Locke discusses this very point.  You have not missed out on your opportunity to agree or disagree.

The importance of reading this work is so you can see clearly that we are quibbling over worthless matters. People do not understand how far we are from a free society.  We are not becoming socialist.  We are well beyond socialism and a good distance into tyranny. 

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 19:21 | 3506469 Notarocketscientist
Notarocketscientist's picture

You think there is a difference between GOP and DEM?  You really are a fucking dangerous moron - I hope you don't have Guns N Ammo - or a drivers license


The level of ignorance and stupidity emanating out of the United States of America is breathtaking.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:35 | 3505479's picture

Europe is not counting each countries share of the ESM debt, nor the unfunded liabilities, nor the borrowings by the southern banks from Germany, etc.  In fact Germany or France both have unfunded pension liabilities of 300% of GDP according to a study commissioned by the ECB.  They are all broke before they try to help.  This crisis is just moving D day forward.  

As more and more countries need help, France and Germany's share of the burden is increasing.  There are only 17 and 5 are already receiving aid with Slovenia in line.  Spain is a basket case and it is big; Italy is the third largest sovereign debt pool in the world. France is a question mark if they continue on the same path. Calculate the share of the 12 and add it on to the sovereign debt they owe and the debt to GDP ratio will jump again.

There is only one way out for Europe and that is getting more efficient (cutting wages, changing labor laws, downsizing government)  This is not happening or is happening in baby steps.  Austerity via revenue increases is a mistake.  All government spending should be cut across the board, including wages, pensions, medical, etc. and that type of austerity will set the stage for growth.  Analyze what has happened and you will see that for most 70 to 80% of austerity has been through the revenue side.  This is Europe's mistake and the reason that growth will not return.  Europe has too much government and the cost of that government is a huge burden on the private sector.  Jobs will not be created in this environment.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:43 | 3505486's picture

Europe is not counting each countries share of the ESM debt, nor the unfunded liabilities, nor the borrowings by the southern banks from Germany, etc.  In fact Germany or France both have unfunded pension liabilities of 300% of GDP according to a study commissioned by the ECB.  They are all broke before they try to help.  This crisis is just moving D day forward.  

As more and more countries need help, France and Germany's share of the burden is increasing.  There are only 17 and 5 are already receiving aid with Slovenia in line.  Spain is a basket case and it is big; Italy is the third largest sovereign debt pool in the world. France is a question mark if they continue on the same path. Calculate the share of the 12 and add it on to the sovereign debt they owe and the debt to GDP ratio will jump again.

There is only one way out for Europe and that is getting more efficient (cutting wages, changing labor laws, downsizing government)  This is not happening or is happening in baby steps.  Austerity via revenue increases is a mistake.  All government spending should be cut across the board, including wages, pensions, medical, etc. and that type of austerity will set the stage for growth.  Analyze what has happened and you will see that for most 70 to 80% of austerity has been through the revenue side.  This is Europe's mistake and the reason that growth will not return.  Europe has too much government and the cost of that government is a huge burden on the private sector.  Jobs will not be created in this environment.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:47 | 3505491 sunny
sunny's picture

" It is a death spiral unless the economies pick-up and experience real growth which is just not happening. Soon the problems will become bad enough that they will hit the fan once again and this time; there will be real Hell to pay."

I'm am sure this is perfectly true statement.  Everything is getting sucked down into the abyss.  Yet, I've read this so many times in the last several years related to so many different variations on the global economic scene,  I can only think "WOLF WOLF  WOLF".  Anyone can predict the end of the world, it is inevitable.  The only thing you never hear anyone predict is the timing. 


Sat, 04/27/2013 - 15:12 | 3505852 The Abstraction...
The Abstraction of Justice's picture

The time: next week.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 11:47 | 3505495 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

The Dutch government is taking some positive action by offering 100% free Euthanasia Cruises on luxury charter ships for any citizen over 65 or on any kind of government benefits - especially unemployment and disability. All First Class cabins. Endless entertainment, great food, the best wine, and a crew of young boys and girls ready to make you feel frisky again anytime you ask. At the end of the two weeks a fabulous party and then during the night all cabins are gassed. Bodies overboard and back to port for another round. Immigrants are of course given the highest priority.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:15 | 3505555 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Longface is on one of our Fema vessels as we speak to see how it works.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:26 | 3505588 worbsid
worbsid's picture

Geeze, what a waste.  There is a lot of protien in those old people.  Or maybe they provide a tasty dish for hungry fish, and then eat the fish.  That will work too.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 00:46 | 3506972 snblitz
snblitz's picture

Soylent Green

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 12:18 | 3505576 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Problem with this potted version of verisimilitude is that it not only confuses geography, and timelines of history, but also manages to mangle the makings of an adequate answer to the very question the author poses! (What is Killing Europe?)

"They may proclaim fantasy but they are living in reality. The famous windmills are becoming unhinged....I have no issue with myths. I just have difficulty when governments fly them as banners of truth"

...and whilst I support Marks' efforts to incorporate the mythopoeic into his arsenal here, in truth there are extremely few windmills in Extremadura...or any part of Spain at all...and even in the other epi-centre of putative wind-hives -eg Holland...the incidence of rotating slats is increasingly's the hot air circulated by politicos such as Hollande which circulates the drafts of hot movin air , by which means the entrepeneurial classes float out of the Eurozone economies entirely...via the dirigble of what Led Zepplin called the "Stairway to Heaven" aka...a stash of cash in a Swiss be latterly turned into a hunk of Au in a Hong Konk order to buy a bit of coast line in Thailand or the Maldives!

The the rest of the motley crew which our correspondent Citizen Ghordius insists upon calling 'members of the European Community,' are busily bailling...the metaphor in this case meaning not boats n barques, but rather, planes n trains; cost of diesel has made it a losing proposition to leave via personal yacht - and car searches bein o so de momento...the cream of Europes workin(as in runnin small to medium biznesses)class is fleein for farther shores...before they can be Cyprused like the bank accounts of a bunch of suckers who thought that runnin a business bank account meant somethin other than bein busted by a bunch of roadside robbin hoods!

They fact...livin in reality...and proclaiming that the fantasy of Eurolandia solidarity is Done - whist Mark flies the banner of the mythic supposition that governments matter anymore...backwardization what!

Nice outing Mark...but no cigar...not even a Cohiba Robusto for yu - and don't even dream of gettin one of my Hoyo de Monterrey Double Coronas... till you can find a metaphor that makes even a bit of sense!...but here's a taste of sumthin real...  for ya \


...jus cause I'm feelin magnanimous! Hope that I've answered the question my own way!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:11 | 3505648 bookofrao
bookofrao's picture

About a week ago, came to news that Portugal is again struggling with an additional financial hole. Turns out that public companies like the Lisbon and Oporto subway contracted swap products among the TBTF banks and the losses are already near 3 billion Euros. It's funny that recently the Contitutional Court veted the decision of Portuguese Government to take a percentage of the pensions and that decison would cost Portugal around 1.3Billion in this conturbated times where every penny is welcome. Now, after an audit at public expenses it was found that public companies contracted billions of interest rate swap products in a gambling like decison of desperation and the losses are already surpassing the 2 billion, with a potential 3 billion euros down the toilet.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:33 | 3505686 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." - Paul Warbug.  Banker and lieutnant to Baron Nathan Rothschild.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:25 | 3506575 honestann
honestann's picture

And to think.  All it would have taken to stop the mass enslavement and destruction of mankind was a few dozen snipers putting bullets through the heads of every mass-murdering mass-enslaver who proposed and asserted things like that.  Too late, game over, beam me up Scotty, and warp 9 outta here if you please.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 13:37 | 3505691 W T F II
W T F II's picture

Damned EXPonential function...It Fks EVERYTHING UP...The EuroZone should order MATH CANCELLED...!!

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 14:03 | 3505731 luckylongshot
luckylongshot's picture

What is killing Europe is the privately owned fractional reserve banking system. In basic terms it is designed to transfer the wealth of nations into the pockets of a private banking elite using what can only be described as a combination of fraud and a ponzi scheme. Why nothing is being done about this problem is that the private bankers, who seem to be headed by the Rothschilds have bought enough politicians to make sure their scheme can go on. What gives a little hope is democracy although there are moves within the Eurozone to dismantle this as well, which if they succeed will mark the end of hope.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 20:19 | 3506567 honestann
honestann's picture

So you imagine herds of braindamaged sheep are a solution?  The same herds of braindamaged sheep who are terminally addicted to the fiat debt foisted by banksters and the fiat handouts offered by politicians?

Are you serious?

NO system in which predators A [in collusion with parasites B] can create debt around the necks of producers C and endless generations of herds of unborn to-be-braindamaged sheep can lead to anything except mass enslavement, mass destruction, and endless pain.

ONLY when every individual enjoys/bares/suffers ALL consequences of his actions, and enjoys/bares/suffers ZERO consequences of the actions of others can human life improve.

The problem is simple.

The solution is simple.

And not one human being in a million is willing to identify or face the problem, or accept the solution.  And that is why, humans are finished.

I only hope a few of the one-in-a-million who honestly identify and face the problem are able to escape planet earth before the rest of the wild, crazy, insane, wacko sheeple-chimps destroy everyone and everything.

Sun, 04/28/2013 - 11:58 | 3507411 luckylongshot
luckylongshot's picture

While it was interesting to read your post I have to reply with an "Are you serious?" as well. The entire individualism discourse you have bought into is simply not backed by any solid research. What the research does show is that our personality behaviours are a result of outside influences. It is known as 'situationsim`and you can read about it is psychology textbooks. It is consistent with reality being socially constructed, which you can also read about in psychology textbooks. While noone has had the guts to come out and say it the evidence points to our being herd animals and this means that individualising the blame for people being turned into sheep is just naive.

If you had researched the banking system you would be aware that it is doing exactly what it was designed to do, which is transfer the public's wealth into the hands of the bankers that own the right to create money. That you would blame the victimes of this ponzi scheme rather than the perpetrators is astonishingly stupid.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 02:34 | 3509163 honestann
honestann's picture

It appears you don't know what research is, or how to perform legitimate research, or when research is appropriate.  Some of your comments are quite amazing!  When I talk about "sheep" and "sheeple", what do you think that implies?  You think I consider their behavior as "individualistic"?  If not, do you expect me to argue against a claim that outside influences influence the personalities and behaviors of many human beings?  Baaaaa, baaaaa, black sheep --- of course they do.

But unlike most intellectual fraudsters, I do not stop there and decide "humans are ants" or "humans have no identity outside a collective", or that "individuals do not exist, except as a piece of a collective", or that "individuals can only be influenced by outside forces" (much less primarily).

The fact is, what you call "psychology" is almost entirely a study of DEFECTS in the operation of consciousness.  Considering yourself part of a collective, and primarily influenced by the collective, is a sure sign of serious psychological problems (malfunctions of consciousness).

Without a doubt, human beings have an ability and tendency towards habituation.  Once you learn to walk, you don't think consciously about moving leg muscles any more, you just walk across the room when you want to walk across the room.  This is indeed an important part of human nature.  And sure enough, habitual behavior also applies to other, higher-level intellectual processes too.

So you betcha, you are saying exactly what I'm saying, that the vast majority of humans are brain damaged sheeple.  What you are apparently too far gone to notice is, not all humans are brain damaged sheeple who have little or no individual identity, capabilities or powers of observation, reflection, insight and understanding.

That is where you are fundamentally wrong.

The fact that you and so many people respond the way you do shows how desparate you are that those of us who ARE individualists, who HAVE learned to take control of our powers of observation, reflection, thought, insight and understanding.... obey you and your masters.  Our answer to all is no, no, no, never.

You are welcome to expand your abilities to include individualist skills, but you will have to learn to cut your cord to the collective.  You must feel completely free to ignore the babble of others, even when the entire planet of sheeple-chimps (and even other individualists) disagree with your observations, reflections and provisional understanding.  If you don't take full control of your powers of intellect, you remain a sheeple-chimp, and you will always remain a sheeple-chimp.

The choice is yours.  Those of us who do observe and think for ourselves, and who do not need a collective to survive or understand reality, welcome anyone who disconnects from the endless collectivist, authoritarian excuses for serving predators and parasites.

Let me say this flat out.  Reality is not socially constructed.  I can assure you, with ZERO possibility of error, that if the sun was to super-nova and vaporize all life on earth, the universe and reality at large would continue working quite nicely without any social anything in the entire universe to "construct it".  That anyone believes anything remotely like your sentence shows how far gone modern human beings are.  The simple tests that immediately refute such claims should be obvious to everyone.

Today, human beings certainly do behave like herd animals.  All that proves is that humans can behave like herd animals.  But I can also tell you with 100% certainty that a non-trivial number of humans can behave as solo-actors, as individualists.  That's a fact.

What is a bit mysterious is... why is it so important for sheeple-chimps (your "herd animals") that us individualists be forced to participate in your herd culture.  Why must we become slaves of the human predators who are your masters and not ours?  Answer that, please.

I think, deep down, you parasites and predators know the answer.  What is the answer?

Individualists tend to be producers.  Hell, that's almost a tautology.  An individualist is all about making it entirely on his own, plus only voluntary interactions with others.  We produce because we need, want or enjoy the goods and goodies we produce, and that we voluntarily trade with other producers (because we all gain advantage from "division of labor" that way).

So here's the deal:

#1:  Producers (individualists) don't need anyone else.  They observe reality, learn how it works, and produce what they need.  No predator or parasite does them any good --- they only waste their time and effort... and often steal the goods and goodies they produce.

#2:  Parasites need producers, because otherwise they'd stave to death.

#3:  Predators need producers, because otherwise they'd starve to death.

So there you have it.  The predators and parasites absolutely depend on producers, also known as individualists.  So gee, I wonder why you want me and other individualists to buy into your lies, and conform to your schemes of enslavement?  Pretty obvious, I'd say.

Hey, while I think people are insane to be sheeple-chimps, it is absolutely their right to do so.  What is NOT their right, is to collaborate with predators to enslave us individualist producers.  That is the problem with your thinking.

Just let us take a small part of earth and live our lives without you slimeballs, okay?  Just leave us alone.  Leave us alone.  Leave us alone.  We are most happy to leave you alone, so why don't you leave us alone.  Live out your socialist-collectivist-enslavementist nightmare... and leave us alone!

You obviously haven't read my posts before.  Of course I know the fiat, fake, fraud, fiction, fantasy, fractional-reserve debt-note toilet-paper computer-bit non-monetary system was designed to steal from everyone and benefit the predators-that-be and predator-class (largely banksters).  Duh.  That's a no brainer, and of course I know that.

The sheeple-chimps are both victims and co-conspirators with the predators-that-be and predator-class.  Make no mistake about that.  THEY continue to vote in huge majorities for the tweedle-dee and tweedle-dumb and tweedle-dumber non-choices of predators to rule them and us individualists and producers.  Almost all of them want the predators to steal from us individualist-producers and then spew some minor crumbs their way in exchange for their voting the predators into their fiat, fake, fraud, fiction, fantasy "official positions".

So you betcha!  When victims turn on other victims, especially the REAL victims who keep them and everyone else alive, they too are actively harming us individualist-producers, as well as themselves.  So yes, they are indeed victims, though they often don't see it that way, but they are absolutely, positively, and unavoidably willing victims as long as they continue to sanction, support, defend and vote for the socialist-collectivist-authoritarian slave-planet system that exists today.

Oh, I do blame the predators and perpetrators.  For a long time, I almost didn't utter a negative word towards the sheeple-chimps who vote for the predators, and beg for the predators to enslave us all.  But make no mistake, they are guilty too.  Without their support, the predators would perish, and in rather short order too.

Everyone who advocates or sanctions or practices predatory actions (which includes every non-voluntary human interaction) is guilty of assault on what makes human life possible, and once made it possible that humans would amount to more than a hill of beans.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 02:44 | 3509198 akak
akak's picture

Damn, if I have to have neighbors, I wish you were one of them.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 03:15 | 3509207 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"Just let us take a small part of earth and live our lives without you slimeballs, okay?  Just leave us alone.  Leave us alone.  Leave us alone."

it reminds me what the king-priest of Ur in ancient Babylonian times was saying on a clay tablet - and it was the reason why (communal) walls were built around the city. Did not stop the invaders, btw, not the first one, though many of the following ones were more successful

as soon as you claim a small part of the earth as yours - and yours alone - you are already playing a small part in the Great Game

New World thinking, yours. In the Old World the historic experience is that it's just a matter of time until a new Ghengis Khan or Attila or Hitler starts to move his hordes from one to the other side of the landmass, and might come and visit. And then?

meanwhile I note you write "leave us..." - plural - and so it's already politics - in the timeless communal/royal "we", same as "we ought to form a militia, build walls, raise taxes for the first two expenses, protect what it's ours..." - how is this individualistic?

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 04:57 | 3509248 honestann
honestann's picture

I'm not sure whether you misunderstand me, or you're trying to spin what I meant.  Let's assume the former.  I'm not saying individualists should attempt to claim a portion of earth in the manner that predators do.  I'm just saying, if there is a place you'll leave us alone, we'll go there.  I mean this as equivalent to saying we would go into outer space, and be left alone simply because there's not shortage of space, and because no pack of human predators has a chance to control the solar-system, much less the galaxy, much less the universe.

This whole "we" game is a bunch of crap.  If an individualist like me finds a way to fly to mars, and have the whole planet to myself, there is no "we" so far, simply because I am one individual.  If some other individualist also finds a way to fly to mars, he will live on mars too.  At that point, I can say "we" live on mars without somehow creating some nonsense "collective" or "society"... or apologize for saying "we live on mars".  And we have not joined your "great game" either.

All such assertions are simple BS propaganda, and totally disingenuous.

If you want to say "we" have politics on mars after the second dude lands, go right ahead, confuse your brain in any way you wish.  I suppose you'd say that even if the second dude lands 180-degrees away from my site, and doesn't even know I live on mars too.  Go ahead and create delusions such as that all you wish.

The fact is, individualists don't need or have "politics".  That term only applies to involuntary human interactions.  If me and this dude (and other sentient being who land) interact in fully voluntary ways... there is no "politics"... at least no "politics" in any real or useful sense of the term.

As I read the rest of your message, it seems you didn't make a mistake, you're just creating nonsense and propaganda.  My other messages state quite clearly that the mere existence of more than one sentient being on a planet, or in the universe, does not somehow magically make us into a "society" or a "country" or a "political system" or a "community"... or have any significance at all.  It certainly does not require that we create a formal albeit fictional "community", does not require we create a fictional "country", does not require we create artificial fictional boundaries, does not require we create fictional "laws" or "rules of behavior" or anything else.

I said it clearly in some recent message.

In any honest, ethical, rational, benevolent world or universe, human intereaction is simple:

#1:  If a human is a predator, then treat them the same as you would any other species of predator... with a bullet.

#2:  If a human is an individualist and all interaction is voluntary, then treat them as friends or neighbors.

There's no need for any artifice in such a situation, no need for towns, countries, politics, laws, communities, society, or any of thousands of completely fictional, artifical, bogus ideas that human predators and parasites concoct to justify harming and destroying other individuals and their property.

I never said anywhere that we would claim a part of earth as ours.  You and other predator apologists just make this stuff up, either to be complete idiots, or because your brain has been so thoroughly trained by the predators to create fictional strawmen that you don't even notice you're doing it (which is scary).

The fact is, the whole notion of ownership cannot honestly or rationally apply to land.  The earth and universe were here before any human being.  To "own" something only has any possibly meaning if you "create it" AKA "produce it".  Then you have a natural causal connection between you and the thing you created, and the relationship is one of causality, specifically, the relationship between human action (cause) and consequence (good or goodie).

To your "and then", I advise you not to don a uniform and work for your friendly neighborhood hitler or attila, because I or we will put a bullet through your head when you attempt to destroy, harm or steal me or us, or the goods and goodies we produced.

BTW, if you really believe that "us" necessarily requires "politics" or "militia", then you are quite literally off your rocker insane.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 06:57 | 3509287 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

ok, than let's take your honest, ethical, rational and benevolent human interaction #1 under scrutiny: "if ... predator ... treat ... with a bullet"

let's say that you, akak and me found a forgotten valley not claimed or even known by any predator, and we have plenty of space for all

meanwhile akak's son married my daughter, and we have a beloved grandson that really likes to hunt in the woods

one day he does not come back, akak and I eventually find him dead, with a "honestann bullet" in his head

we ask why. you reply that he behaved like a predator and you acted accordingly (under #1)

what then? what is your recipy for the proper individualistic response to such a situation?

are there norms and protocols entailed? laws? juries? are blood feuds ok? I have some personal experience with blood feuds, you see, and so I'm just enquiring...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:24 | 3512062 honestann
honestann's picture

The norms are your brains - your most honest assessment.  You have no laws to refer-to.  But "no laws" doesn't mean "no honesty" or "no standards".  In that situation (the proper situation for mankind, by the way), you must decide what is the appropriate action for you to take.  And once you take those actions, you must be ready to accept the consequences for those actions.

The old-time law provided a fairly simple opinion about this issue.  If you can't show beyond the shadow of a doubt that honestann acted in a predatory way, you must refrain from action against her until you can find sufficient evidence to be certain your guess or estimate or suspicions are correct.


Because if you guess, estimate or speculate wrong, and kill honestann, or lock her in a cage for life (or for years)... and eventually you find out you were wrong and honestann was honest with you and was never predatory, then you are the predator, and she never was.  Furthermore, you cannot undo the damage you have done to her.  And to yourself.

If you are serious about your status as an honest, ethical, benevolent, productive individual, then you will naturally be extremely, extremely, incredibly careful about taking harmful actions against others.  Sure, when they are coming at you firing a weapon, shoot to kill.  But when you are about to take action against someone, and they are not now taking actions against you, then you risk becoming the predator when you respond too quickly or carelessly.

I will say, by the way, that you might find the poor dead kid, and go off half-cocked and kill honestann in a fit of rage.  If you are lucky, and honestann was guilty of predatory murder, then you are not a predator, by pure luck.  But unfortunately, you'll never really know, because you did not take the time and effort necessary to thoroughly investiage events.

Who knows what you might find if you investigate thoroughly?  What if you find out that honestann shot your kid... but he was sneaking up on an elk to shoot the elk for dinner... in a fake elk head (to not alarm the elk).  You might find honestann shot your son thinking she was shooting an elk for dinner, a few moments before your son was going to shoot an elk for dinner.

Then what?

At the very least, you might take time to settle down, be an honest, rational, reflective individual, and try to thoroughly understand every aspect of what happened before you decide what if anything is the appropriate response.

In the end, there is no "authority" to judge.  Not in that fictional valley you mentioned, and not in the world of fictitious governments and authorities today.  The only difference today is, humans do pretend there's a difference.  But there isn't... except inherently predators are in control of the investigation and response.  Which is the worst possible situation.

As the human who shot your son dead in this example, I would rather explain what happened to you, and come to a resolution with you.  Maybe we'd have other individualists we trust in the room to discuss their perspectives too.  And if you and I can't come to agree, and you decide you're going to kill me, and I know I did nothing wrong, then maybe in the end we're just going to go at it and one of us end up dead or injured beyond being able to fight further.  That's a bit like a voluntary gunfight in the old west.  Which is better than modern justice... IF... both are honest, ethical, benevolent individualists, and simply cannot, after extreme efforts, come to a voluntary resolution.

PS:  If someone is under the control of a "blood fued", they strike me as not being honest or ethical or benevolent in those matters (at least).  But there is no way to resolve that to full satisfaction of everyone in any "system" or non-system.  The best way in that case, probably, is for the two sides to choose one or more arbiters that they both believe are honest and objective, and agree to abide by their decision.  But if one or both won't, there's no simple solution, not in law, not in society, not in authoritarianism, not in anarchy, not anywhere.

Notice what I said.  Life is not (and cannot be) utopia, not even life without formal predators-DBA-government or predators-DBA-authorities.  There are situations that can't be worked out, and can't be resolved to the satisfaction of everyone.  This is not common, but it will happen given a large enough population and sufficient interactions and accidents and incomplete evidence.

An authority (or super-authority) is no solution, just a guarantee that arbitrary and predatory results will be the norm.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 03:27 | 3509214 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I'll simplyfy further: by the very act of staking a claim on a territory ("let us take a small part of earth") you take part in the act of building nations. and this makes you a... statist

presumably an enlightened, highly individualistic one, but nevertheless statist starts with the words "this part of the earth is ours, shove off" or "if you want to stay in our territory, you have to behave the way we expect from you"

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 05:04 | 3509254 honestann
honestann's picture

The only thing we expect from you is to NOT assault us.  And yes, we do expect that.  However, if you think a bit about that formulation, that is not telling you what you must do, it is telling you what you better not do to us.  That does NOT make anyone a statist to say "don't harm me".  Anyone who thinks it does is stark raving lunatic insane.

If you are (act like) a predator (attack us), expect to be treated like a predator.  If you act like an individualist (honest, ethical, productive being), you won't have any problems with us.

To be left alone does not mean, imply or require we create a nation.  That's just crazy talk.

Just think what you say.  To be "left alone" == "create an empire".  Quite the leap!

You attempted to claim everyone is a statist, by definition.  You are utterly wrong.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 07:47 | 3509368 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

so you define individualists as honest, ethical and productive, and the rest as predators & prey? well, the most burning question I have to you is here, and I'm honestly curious if and how you answer it

meanwhile, please note that "us" is just a different way of saying "we". when you say "us" you imply "we"

"leave us alone" = "we want to be left alone"

square this with "This whole "we" game is a bunch of crap"

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 00:43 | 3511985 honestann
honestann's picture

Without going into depth, of course someone can call themself an individualist and not be one.  Most humans lie quite frequently, so you and I both know what people say isn't necessarily what is.  I'm fairly sure we can agree on at least that.

Your problem with the "us" and "we" game is this.  An individual is an individual, whether other individuals [with similar attitudes and behaviors] exist or not.  If two or five or a million individuals say "leave me alone", each one of them is an individual, and each one of them says "leave me alone".  However, as a matter of linguistic convenience and convention the term "we" and "us" can be applied to multiple individuals without somehow eliminating the individuals, or merging them into some society or collective.

If 100 individuals in your town like red cars, they do not instantly become one of infinite "socities" or "collectives".  Each is merely an individual who like red cars.  That other individuals also like red cars does not change his nature, nor his ethics, nor anything else.  The proof of that is simple.  If the other 99 of those individuals move out of town or die, the remaining individual is exactly as he was before.

This is first-grader level stuff, and it is sad that the vast majority of humans can't figure this stuff out.  Of course, they should have been told this stuff before first grade, but were instead brainwashed with endless crazy, wacko, mystical and authoritarian lies.

To conclude.  The "we" and "us" is a linguistic device.  All that exists in the universe are the individuals.  Period.  That's it.  That's all.  That's simple.  Think about it --- it could not be otherwise.

To be complete, I suppose, I should add that some people are productive some of the time but not all the time.  Some people are predators some of the time but not all the time.  Some people are parasites some of the time but not all the time.  Some people are prey some of the time but not all the time.  People take multiple actions over a lifetime, and to be sure, they are not always completely consistent thoughout that lifetime.

So my characterizations are asking you to be a bit adult and rational about my statements.  For example, you are probably used to calling some people "murderers" who lived 99.9999999% of their lives without killing anyone, but there was that one millisecond their finger muscle jerked against the trigger and caused a bullet to shoot through someone, killing them.  I believe you are probably comfortable with that characterization, even though they did not spend their entire lives killing people.  Can I assume that?

I also acknowledge that even the worst human predators do not spend every second of every day destroying and harming the lives and property of other humans (though some people like politicians and corporate executives set in motion large scale events that do result in constant, continuous harm to others, even as they do not take all the actions themselves).

So I hope you understand that when some predator comes after my life or my property, I don't give a damn whether he produces the nicest garden of organic tomatoes in his back yard.  He is a predator.  And as with all those categories, one puts oneself into those categories by taking certain actions (predatory, parasitical, productive).  So I suppose these terms can be confusing if you don't carefully think them through.  These terms are formulated in english as properties (like colors), which can be misleading because it is specific [series-of] actions that are predatory, parasitical or productive.  You (and I and everyone) needs to be thoughtful enough to look at these terms and figure out what are their rational, appropriate, utilitarian meanings.

In case I wasn't explicit enough above, I say "yes".  A human being who is honest, ethical, benevolent and productive most of the time, but now and then takes predatory actions against others --- is a predator, and not an individualist.

To be an individualist is a full-time, full-life job.  It means never, ever forcing anyone, and never ever imposing involuntary interactions.  Never.  Got that?  It really is similar to being a non-murderer.  Once you murder once, you are a murderer.  Once you act as a predator, you are a predator.  Only when you never act as a predator can you be an individualist, because you never forced anyone else to make your life work (or be easier, or more enjoyable, or whatever).  It is indeed an all or nothing deal for individualists.  You could say, being an individualist means never being a predator or parasite.  But to be more clear, being an individualist means never imposing non-voluntary human interactions.

Having said all that, if a human was to change... really, really, really, fundamentally and honestly and permanently change, and never take predatory actions again, and compensate his past victims fully and apologetically... then we might eventually decide to say "he was a predator, but has been acting as an individualist and a producer since <insert-date>".

Beware the foibles and historical accidents of language, and always focus on exactly what existed before, and what exists now.  It is reality that matters, not the accident of how certain terms are formulated in this or that language.

Mon, 04/29/2013 - 09:55 | 3509741 smacker
smacker's picture

Nope. Statism is about a belief in government, usually wanting more government and usually wanting government to have more powers. It's not the same as claiming property rights.

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 16:36 | 3506069 Umh
Umh's picture

I don't see an article to comment on so I'll do it here. I just got my health insurance options for next year and under Obama care my premiums go up and the service I get goes down. Is anyone really surprised?

Sat, 04/27/2013 - 18:52 | 3506435 hooligan2009
hooligan2009's picture

welcome to more of the new normal

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:15 | 3515267 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

And knowing there are 26  MILLION JOBLESS population (mostly the youth) across EU bloc.

What could possibly be wrong???

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