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And Now, The Ugly Side Of A College Education

Tyler Durden's picture


Yesterday we showed the good side of college by presenting those majors that result in the best starting salaries fresh out of college. Now the bad side.

According to a survey by Accenture, more than 40% of recent US college graduates are "disillusioned", "underemployed" or "need more training" to get on a career track. But... what about those tends of thousands in student loans, or at least the remainder that was not spent on Apple products? Turns out the marginal utility of a college education is dropping as fast as the total notional in Federal student loans is rising. What is most ironic, is that according to the survey, many of the respondents end up at jobs that do not even require a college degree.  Of the respondents, 34% said they owed $30,000 or less, while 17% had between $30,000 and $50,000 in student loans.

So what is the solution: why more degrees of course!

Nearly half, 42 percent, of recent graduates expect they will need an advanced degree to further their career and almost a quarter are already planning to take graduate courses. More degrees, more debt, more dead end opportunities for a generation that is stuck in place not because it is underqualified, but because of barriers to entry erected by those already in the workforce, especially those aged 55 and over who courtesy of Bernanke's ZIRP4EVA can't afford to retire, and who as the following chart shows are employed more now than ever. The losers: those aged 20-24 whose employment level has not budged in the past four decades despite a demographic boom that puts millions more into precisely this age cohort with every passing year. Where are those who are not in the labor force (and not playing Call of Duty)? Why in college of course.

More from Reuters:

"For our nation's youngest workers, as well as for the workforce at large, there is a real need for employers to reexamine how they hire, train and develop their employees," said Katherine Lavelle, of the global management consulting firm Accenture, which conducted the survey.


More than half of graduates said it was difficult finding a job, but 39 percent were employed by the time they left college. Sixty eight percent said they are working full time, while 16 percent are in part-time positions.


The top industries that graduates wanted to work in were education, media and entertainment and healthcare.


Just over half, 53 percent, of graduates found full-time jobs in their field of study.


In addition to being underemployed many graduates thought they would have done better in the job market if they had studied a different major, and more than half also intended to go back to school within the next five years.

The biggest disappointment: the difference between perceptions about wage potential and reality.

The survey uncovered a gap between what students expect to earn in their first job and their actual salary. Only 15 percent of this year's graduates think they will earn less than $25,000 but a third of recent graduates said they make that amount or less.

Will any of this change the sad reality where even the hope of a lucrative future for most involves drowning in debt? Of course not. After all in the new normal, "money dilution is prosperity" and "debt is wealth." If this is the case for sovereign nations and corporations, why not for the individual as well. Because it is not as if anyone expects any of the record outstanding debt to ever be repaid.


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Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:44 | 3515367 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture


Why get a job if you can just buy AAPL and become rich?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:49 | 3515379 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

Join the armed forces for debt forgiveness and the oppurtunity to rid the syrian terrorists of chemical weapons......Forward

We know where the WMD are, they are north, south east or west of Tickret....RUMY

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:52 | 3515398 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I would have enjoyed seeing the lowest paying majors vs. yesterday's highest paying...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:13 | 3515471 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture




Old age and treachery beats youth and skill every time...



Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:21 | 3515517 Manthong
Manthong's picture

the real ugly thing is that almost none of these jewels of modern enlightenment understand and appreciate the concepts of the invisible hand or the division of labor

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:33 | 3515542 negative rates
negative rates's picture

In debt we trust!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:34 | 3515553 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

Just Buy The Fucking Diploma

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:43 | 3515581 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

The real ugly side of college ed is not having even a basic degree:

Unemployment rates:

Bachelor's and higher: 3.8%

Less than high school: 11.2%

High school: 7.9%

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:04 | 3515632 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

the ugly side of my college education

ended with my divorce

at least, with that, I got to experience the costs of a current student

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:48 | 3515764 Silver Bully
Silver Bully's picture

'The real ugly side of college ed is not having even a basic degree:'

Wait, what? So are you saying the reason a person should go to college is to reduce their chances of being unemployed?

See, stupid me thought it was the reverse - you go to college to INCREASE your chances of being employed, and to INCREASE your potential salary level.

Too bad the student loan industry is in a bubble. You'd end up doing better financially by living in your parent's basement, with no debt, and either collecting minimum wage or welfare. Life's a bitch if you need to go to school these days, huh?


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:57 | 3515794 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Wait, what? So are you saying the reason a person should go to college is to reduce their chances of being unemployed?

See, stupid me thought it was the reverse - you go to college to INCREASE your chances of being employed

Forward! Back to college for you!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 23:56 | 3516689 tango
tango's picture

The purpose of college is not to "get a job".   College serves the same purpose as the military - you grow up.  You learn time management, self-discipline, organization, structure and the consequences of procrastination.  These aspects of a degree are much more beneficial than any technical jargon (outside of the hard sciences).  College days should be fun - you are the freest (and perhaps happiest) you'll ever be.  "Book knowledge" is only one aspect of the "college experience."   Unfortunately I had to work during school so the "fun" aspect was not so prominent. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:34 | 3515702 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

"Just Buy The Fucking Diploma"


You can't buy a diploma from the school of experience.  Work for the man with wisdom and knowledge, work for free until you can prove your worth, that's how you'll learn something of value.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:56 | 3515782 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

+1.  I agree 100%.  I'm sure as the new normal progresses, apprenticeships will have a resurgence in popularity.

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 01:03 | 3516649 Tapeworm
Tapeworm's picture


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:00 | 3515812 ThorsteinVeblen
ThorsteinVeblen's picture

Then logically, African Americans stopped learning anything of value in 1865. Also, by 1938 the minimum wage must have put a hault to learning anything of value for another generation and today, half of Americans are still just surving. Should we call the one who employs somebody for free a knowledgeable wise man or, something else? Has Ayn Rand fiction been repeated enough now to morph variations of it into truisms? If you could just get back to that fictional day when America was sweaty and greatful.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:52 | 3515947 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You lost me after "then logically" and the race baiting.  Your trustfund days will be coming to an end Mr thornstein, that's a fact.  What will become of you? I know I don't deliver justice.  But I know justice will be served.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:49 | 3516128 ThorsteinVeblen
ThorsteinVeblen's picture

Organized skilled labor has true apprenticeship programs but, they are in decline. The post implied that trading labor for an education is a good thing. It is a good concept that has always been used by organized labor (fewer education tax dollars plus a sustaining wage). One would hope that they didn't mean "work for free" as slaves or surfs. America did well for non-college citizens when a higher number of Americans were organized. At one time, education was a passport to privilege and now, just mostly for the elite schools' students. 

Note the chart. Most all charts are llike this one: divergences from good occur around the time of Reagan and his Rand following young republicans.


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:36 | 3516260 bluskyes
bluskyes's picture

Do you have any real-world work experience, or are you an academic?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:55 | 3516502 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

When people think they're in a capitalist society it makes me giggle.

We live in a fascist society.  Look up Mussolini and his ideas on CORPORATISM. 


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:57 | 3516308 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

The markets are killing occupations for anyone who makes things, as that work has been replaced with cheap imports or cheap illegal labor. Trades used to train within, passing down skills from generation to generation, but many of those jobs simply left. the ones that remain are dominated by immigrants, many of which have entered the job market with little or no training, and those qualities show. Unions attempted to play a role in training but unfornuately most have been more interested in keeping existing positions, for as we know, trade classifications are religiously preserved. A janitor dare not pick up a tool and help or he will be prompty acosted.  Education is simply another industry that, because of government backed lending, has prospered in a bubble and just like with housing will have its day. As we have insisted on buying the cheap imports and low bid illegal labor, we have been directly responsible for eliminating our jobs. Ultimately the only jobs that will exist will be government employment. The rest of us will be working for sure but not in anything we would traditionally think of as a job. More like public service penalties, picking up trash on the side of the road...for food stamps.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:54 | 3515979 troublesum
troublesum's picture


To bad kids now a days think working for free is backwards approach... I was working tech support (I do have a fairly decent technical background) making crap wages (the industry fell out from under me in 2009 and had to take a lower job than what i was skilled for). But the new company I worked for had a small develpment team. I started programing at home as a hobby becuase it looked intersting and I knew it paid better. Got just good enough that I could do some small things for the company and asked if they would let me code some stuff for them on my down time (do software devopment for free). They agreed and as time went on they started tasking me during my regular schedule to do these things (still getting paid crap but learing on the job)... 2 years of that (now a fairly decent developer) and I went to ask them for a raise. They said no (go figure).. I found a new job in a month as an intermediate webdeveloper at what is considered a decent starting salary for the industry. 2 years of getting paid crap for the knowledge I gained will reward me for th rest of my life... too bad kids just don't think this way any more.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:34 | 3516257 bluskyes
bluskyes's picture

Did you get offered a raise when you told them you were quitting?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:44 | 3515744 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

Just don't buy a fucking laptop with windows 8. Freaking fucking annoying ass bullshit; it's not a god damned finger-swiping mother/Father phone OS we want.


(Was that out loud?)

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:19 | 3515870 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Well, Ubuntu did the same stupid shit.

Apparently, the future is a data consuming device, as they are all too retarded to work as a text input device.

And no, I'm not going to talk to a fucking computer.

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 00:50 | 3516796 Curiously_Crazy
Curiously_Crazy's picture

I've been cained for saying this ever since Ubuntu first came out, but as a Linux distro it's always been utter garbage. Being owned by a corporation they now include tracking software in it as well (whodathunkit). What they took advantage of was a massive marketing drive at first release (they sent out free CD's to anyone that wanted it.. even paying for international postage themselves) so the barrier of entry was way low since a lot of people back then downloaded the ISO's of distos and burned then installed themselves (finding distro in computer stores was far and few between).

If anyone wants to take advantage of Ubuntu repos, which are very extensive and pretty damn good, then go for something like Mint Linux or - and not sure if this one is still around but it used to be good for a new user - Mepis.

Personally I use Zen; smooth, fast, efficient. Though I've still got the ol Gentoo box that's been powering along for over 8 years and hasn't missed a beat.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:05 | 3515995 ExpendableOne
ExpendableOne's picture

Windows 8 works great on a laptop.  Just learn the key stroke shortcuts and skip the useless start screen.  Download classic start menu (free) if you want the old style start menu.  This was created on an old Lenovo Z61 (with an ssd upgrade and Windows 8 Pro)

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:33 | 3516076 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Or -- better yet!

Download Fedora and, during the install, tell it to "Use the Whole Disk".

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 01:01 | 3516808 Curiously_Crazy
Curiously_Crazy's picture

heh, yeah Fedora aint half bad. But instead of KDE vs Gnome or vi vs emacs, it's a case of .rpm vs .deb!  Been on the .deb side for the last decade :)

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:47 | 3516122 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

What do you expect from a Teaching Staff - steeped in Marxist bullshit, with a side dish of tenure?  Fewer then 10% of college professors can get a job outside of Government .... ever wonder why?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 23:56 | 3516686 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

If they were all enrolled in engineering classes and had the prep to achieve, then we could close the H1B door and rebuild the middle class.

But noooooo, we would rather blather about selling sex taps and reality TV and terminators divorce problems.....  We suck, and deserve what we are going to get.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:29 | 3516223 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Old age and treachery beats youth and skill every time...


The hopelessly indebted and unemployed graduate; "I'm done. Everything stops. Get someone else to run your scams."

The ponzi-master Baby Boomers; " Nothing stops. Nothing... or you will do the hardest time there is. No more protection from the guards. I'll pull you out of that one-bunk Hilton and cast you down with the Sodomites. You'll think you've been fucked by a train! And the library? Gone... sealed off, brick-by-brick. We'll have us a little book barbecue in the yard. They'll see the flames for miles. We'll dance around it like wild Injuns! You understand me? Catching my drift?... Or am I being obtuse?"

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 11:41 | 3518123 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

The Ponzi predates the Boomers. The son becomes the father, and all that jazz.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:05 | 3516337 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

literally and figuratively

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:09 | 3515474 espirit
espirit's picture

You mean I'm not going to get rich with a Urban and Regional Planning degree that specializes in eCONomic Development?

Another 4 years wasted.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:29 | 3515539 Manthong
Manthong's picture

interesting perspective..   urban planning…  is that anything like instituting freedom through slavery?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:48 | 3515591 xtop23
xtop23's picture

Unless you're in Detroit. Then it's a bit more like sensitivity of touch through amputation.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:25 | 3515652 TuesdayBen
TuesdayBen's picture

Screw college and debt. Lead others into debt.

Become a Realtor.

List. Sell. List. Sell. List. Sell.
On the side, Flip, Flip, Flip
Work out unseemly arrangements with your title/escrow/settlement/mortgage 'preferred partners'.
Cheer the actions of the FRB
Drive a Mercedes by 20
Part of a cheery husband and wife broker tandem by 30
Nasty divorce by 40
Stop planting signs by 50
Live off rental income.
Waste away in Margaritaville...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:30 | 3515683 11b40
11b40's picture

That's just so last decade.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:35 | 3516082 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Can't I just start with the Margaritaville part?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:39 | 3515705 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Urban planning in Detoilet should liberally employ artillery and Daisy Cutters.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:13 | 3515481 HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

Ask and you shall least what TIME has to say about it.,28804,2073703_2073654,00.html

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:48 | 3515597 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Thanks, HoofH!  I note that my niece (drama major) may not have great prospects...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:24 | 3515875 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

My jaw always drops when I encounter someone going into debt to learn how to pretend to be other people.

And for what? A chance at being in Scary Movie 25?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:31 | 3516240 The Heart
The Heart's picture

"And for what? A chance at being in Scary Movie 25?"

Exactly NA! Scary movie drill number 25 coming to a local city or town near you soon. All you have to do is sign the actior waiver form and have the instructions to go along.

Actor Information Sheet:

The Actor Information Sheet should be distributed to actors before the exercise and should accompany the Actor Waiver Form. This information sheet is provided as an example only and should be modified to suit the jurisdiction’s needs as well as the exercise scope, type, and scenario. For example, if decontamination will not be part of the exercise, actors do not need to be instructed to wear bathing suits.

Please read and understand the following points; they will ensure that your participation in this exercise will be safe and enjoyable. If you have any questions, please contact [Actor POC].

  1. The day will be long and tiring.

You need to be at the site by [time], and you will probably not finish until after [time]. If you have any health concerns or medical conditions, please tell [Actor POC] before the start of the exercise. Health or medical concerns will not necessarily disqualify you from participating.

  1. You must be at least 18 years old and sign a waiver to participate.

If you are not 18 and are not in the military, parental permission is required to participate. The waiver form (included) must be turned in before the exercise to [Actor POC].

  1. Eat a good breakfast before arrival.

It is your responsibility to eat a well-balanced meal before arriving at the exercise, [just in case you miss some of the food provided.]

[Exercise officials are planning a snack and limited beverages before the exercise. Volunteers transported to hospitals will be given a snack before being returned to the exercise site. Volunteers who do not leave the exercise site will be released before lunch.]

  1. Transport yourself to and from the exercise site.

You are responsible to transport yourself to [exercise location]. A map is attached for your convenience. If you carpool with another volunteer, there is no guarantee that you will be returned to the exercise site at the same time.

  1. Be on time!

Please do not arrive late. It is difficult to begin the exercise if actors are not in place.

You will most likely be released by [time]. However, you may finish earlier or later. Volunteers transported to hospitals will be returned to the exercise site.

  1. Wear layers of old clothes and a bathing suit.

Wear clothes that can be removed and a bathing suit underneath. Wear clothes that you do not mind getting wet, dirty, stained, or torn. You will get wet.

  1. There will be no place to keep personal belongings.


Actor Waiver Form:


On behalf of [Jurisdiction], we thank you for volunteering to be a simulated casualty for our preparedness exercise. The event is scheduled for [date]. Actors should report to [location] at [time].

Exercise Overview

You will be participating as a mock victim of a [scenario]. You will be triaged and either directed or taken to an area where appropriate decontamination will occur, potentially including cutting of your clothing. You will be washed and reclothed. Alternative garments will be provided. Please wear a bathing suit, shorts, and T-shirt, and bring a change of clothes and towel. We would appreciate your wearing loose-fitting and easily removable shoes. It is recommended that you do not wear jewelry. Jewelry and personal items will be removed during the decontamination process, bagged, and given to you to carry as you go through the decontamination line.

Before the event, you will be given a complete orientation to the incident site, the type of injury or symptoms you should simulate, and what actions are expected of you.

Please eat a meal and drink plenty of liquids before you come. After the event, food and refreshments will be available for you. Restrooms also will be available for your convenience.

Please Print Name, Sign, and Date

I, _______________________________________, agree to participate in the [sponsor name]-sponsored exercise on [conduct date]. I agree to go through the decontamination process. I will hold harmless [Jurisdiction] and any other agency or its members participating in this exercise. I understand that all reasonable and customary safety measures will be performed to try to prevent injury or harm to me.


And don't forget your make up kit info:



Exercise Guidance

Moulage Kit Information

Moulage is makeup applied to victim actors to add realism to an exercise. It may include fake blood, plastic bones, and any other makeup that helps a victim actor realistically portray the signs and symptoms on his or her symptomology card. Although not re­quired, moulage is encouraged at all operations-based exercises.

The moulage staff—commonly composed of volunteers from local school drama clubs, community theaters, and mortuaries—applies the makeup to the victim actors. Moulage makeup kits and manuals can be purchased from various sources for “do-it-yourself” volunteer efforts. However, businesses specializing in moulage do exist and boast professional moulage artists and materials. These types of moulage businesses are often employed for full-scale exercises.

Common moulage kit components include:

  • Makeup (various colors)

  • Cotton balls

  • Sterile gauze pads

  • Glycerin

  • Palette knife

  • Brushes (various types)

  • Tongue depressors

  • Sponges (stipple, gauze, makeup)

  • Mixing palette

  • Effects gels (blood, clear, flesh colored)

  • Effects gel applicator

  • Stage blood (premixed and powder mixes)

  • Scissors

  • Utility knife

  • Plastic wrap

  • Liquid starch

  • Pocket comb

  • Rubbing alcohol

  • Petroleum jelly

  • Liquid adhesive and adhesive remover

  • Empty mixing bottles

  • Flesh putty (various colors)

  • Prosthetics (various injuries such as blisters, burnt skin, bone fractures, open wounds)

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:39 | 3516443 Yohimbo
Yohimbo's picture

We will all get rich from crisis acting!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 23:10 | 3516544 ForTheWorld
ForTheWorld's picture

My mind keeps trying to read HSEEP as SHEEP. It probably all boils down to the same thing anyway.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:48 | 3515385 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

To help out these poor young souls the government will set up some nice labor camps... and not just for the young.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:00 | 3515427 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

I was wondering what this place would look like when the trend reverts to the mean.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:52 | 3515399 Aeternus
Aeternus's picture

APPL is hip, if you don't own APPL, your square, ya dig?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:45 | 3516090 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture



Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:42 | 3515368 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

How do majors in Mandarin Chinese place in this?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:50 | 3515391 howenlink
howenlink's picture

Vehlwee, vehlwee, well, pwababwee.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:26 | 3515533 GubbermintWorker
GubbermintWorker's picture

I hope so, my son is finishing his sophomore year, studying in China this summer, via scholarship, back in the US for his junior and half his senior year and then back to China for the second half of his senior year.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:58 | 3515419 Poetic injustice
Poetic injustice's picture

More interestingly, do they train in pooping on roadsides during "Chinese culture" training?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:49 | 3515512 Rainman
Rainman's picture

No more need humans to think. Computer do that now. Meanwhile, human dig dig holes until computer figure out how to do that too.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 23:57 | 3516694 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

"How do majors in Mandarin Chinese place in this?"


higher order slaves, vs the normal ones.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:45 | 3515369 back2basics
back2basics's picture


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:52 | 3515400 xtop23
xtop23's picture

"It isn't a failure to launch, it's the lack of a place to land."

Peter Schiff -

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:03 | 3515818 1C3-N1N3
1C3-N1N3's picture

They're all trying to land in the cities and college towns, and in the process have saturated the urban labor market. That's why I moved to a small town. Plenty of work to do here, and all the kids have gone.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:08 | 3515469 somecallmetimmah
somecallmetimmah's picture

Your sister?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:17 | 3516023 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Fuck!, is apt and at the same time an understatement. Fuck!!!. You needed more exclamation points.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:45 | 3515371 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

So your saying an art / history major won't get a job?  I would have never guessed that

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:51 | 3515389 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Volunteer museum docent?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:53 | 3515392 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Just guessing from my time in college, but probably half of all humanities majors have it in their minds that they'll somehow go on to teach at the college level. In reality, hardly any of them will, likely less than a tenth of a percent.

And that's the problem with humanities majors: pretty much the only place they can get a job in their field is at a university, teaching other humanities majors.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:54 | 3515412 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Our kid (BA French & English, class of 2009) is a paralegal.  Her salary is OK!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:59 | 3515421 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

I'm glad she's doing well, but she didn't major in paralegal studies, right? My sister is a paralegal, too. She majored in sociology with a minor in psychology...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:06 | 3515450 kw2012
kw2012's picture

You don't need a degree at all to become a paralegal. That's four years of tuition blown (ok there are some intangibles) and four years of salary forfeited. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:10 | 3515475 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

One can affordably obtain the qualifications for many jobs from Sally Struthers.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:40 | 3515725 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Sally taught me how to properly eat a sandwich in front of the starving and stinky hobos. Priceless information.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:04 | 3515994 Law97
Law97's picture

I'm a paralegal too, and all I have is a J.D. and two master's degrees.  Just kidding, about myself anyway, but I do know a lot of paralegals that are licensed attorneys who can't find work as lawyers and are willing to be paralegals in hopes of someday upgrading positions.  Hell, I even know a couple of receptionists and clerks at law firms who are lawyers hoping for a paralegal job.  It's rough out there in the legal profession. If I was starting out today instead of way back in 1997, I'm not so sure I could make a go at it. 


It's so sad to see all these young people putting all their hopes and effort into being able to get a decent job after they earn that advanced degree.  There are just simply not enough jobs, and getting another degree just makes you that much more underemplyed and indebted. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:29 | 3516064 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"It's so sad to see all these young people putting all their hopes and effort into being able to get a decent job after they earn that advanced degree."

A Degree in Law is not an Advanced degree. There really isn't too much difference between getting a law degree and a liberal arts degree. For a lawyer to have any chance they need a Masters in Business, or Engineering (preferably Engineering). The Biz/Eng Degree will allow them to apply business practice with legal needs. Most of the attorneys end up doing Document review or some mundane process at $15 to $25/hr because they have no background to apply legal needs (Contracts, IP, etc).

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 00:01 | 3516707 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I totally agree.  A law degree is not the same as an Engineering degree.  It is not even the same as a MBA (especially from a top 10 university).  Ask yourself this:  does one need a law degree (caps not included on purpose) to become a car salesman, cause that is what lawyers are.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:59 | 3516504 Son of Loki
Son of Loki's picture

These advanced degrees are a mixed bag. I was just reading about a group of pediatricians going bankrupt...same newspaper had an article about the median salary of postal workers--- a cool $75,000 a year + health insurance + pension.


I don't know. But Yutes need to rethink the entire game of life.

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 01:25 | 3516823 Curiously_Crazy
Curiously_Crazy's picture

A similar situation in the Surveying industry (and many more I'm sure). Not long ago all one needed was Yr12 and a bit of nous to get a job as an assitant. These days even for an assistant position often times a degree is needed or lots of previous experience.

A lot of Surveyors are currently working as assistants hoping that things will pick up.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:51 | 3515607 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture


Correct, she did not major in paralegal, ugh...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:02 | 3515411 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Actually, if you combine that with fluent Mandarin, you can get a job immediately in Hong Kong.

I should also point out to the crowd, that a degree in art history is a bad example since that particular industry, ie, curation, gallery, auctioneering and related consulting is currently booming as a result of the Asian market and Bernankes funny money. It's still difficult to land a job, but without the MFA you have zippo.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:00 | 3515424 Poetic injustice
Poetic injustice's picture

Make blowjob, get married to rich guy.
That's the usual career of "Women's oppression in medieval times" major gets you.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:06 | 3516186 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Wow, what college did you go to? All the "woman studies" majors I knew at my school were 350lb dykes. At my brothers school in Seattle they were braless,hairy under armed dykes. Get a BJ from them and you'd have to squat to pee.


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:20 | 3515664 Voicefather
Voicefather's picture

I know many graphic arts majors that have no problems finding related work to their degree in their home state. It has been the math/science people I know having to move around chasing jobs. That's what a service economy gets you.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:23 | 3515665 Voicefather
Voicefather's picture

I know many graphic arts majors that have no problems finding related work to their degree in their home state. It has been the math/science people I know having to move around chasing jobs. That's what a service economy gets you.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:44 | 3516095 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture


So your saying an art / history major won't get a job?




I can do this all night.  I can do this as long as it takes.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:45 | 3515373 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

education?... I thought it was 'indoctrination'... [After all, the highest form of any scholastic path is to become a DOCTOR]

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:48 | 3515387 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

BS degree =  Bullshit

MS degree = More Shit

PHD = Pile it on higher dammit!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:06 | 3515460 markovchainey
markovchainey's picture

Depending on the BS you can get a decent's the BA where you're left with your bare ass hanging out waiting for the slam...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:26 | 3515530 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture



BA = 4 semesters of foreign language

BS = 4 semesters of relatively intense mathematics

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:43 | 3515575 IdiocracyIsAlre...
IdiocracyIsAlreadyHere's picture

Don't knock the foreign language requiement of a BA, though, it is probably the most worthwhile requirement for that degree.  Especially if you are bold and take Mandarin, Korean, Russian, ect. but even if is only the easier choices of Spanish or French you still have a leg up on 80-90% of Americans who have no second language skills at all.  4 semesters is intermediate level, advance level if you took 3-4 years of that language in high school.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:27 | 3515681 knukles
knukles's picture

I mumble a lot and do differential calculus in my dreams, I think.
How's that for next Secretary of the Treasury?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:03 | 3515997 Clycntct
Clycntct's picture

"How's that for next Secretary of the Treasury?" It not much but it is Funny!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:59 | 3516306 TuesdayBen
TuesdayBen's picture

Can you legibly sign your name?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:14 | 3515499 frenchie
frenchie's picture

shyte i have a phd...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:20 | 3515509 prains
prains's picture

i'm going to come out of the closet and say wait a minute. Pretty sure Tyler has a degree or two and he's certainly not indoctrinated. Myself I'll fess up, have two degrees myself, one in a type of math you probably can't even spell. Don't use it, never intended on using it but fuck it was a good time and interesting as hell. I bang nails for a living and the nine years i spent in university were the best fucking years going. It's not about the job, it's about your brain and what it can do. It actually thinks for itself on a decently high level if you train it, that's what university taught me, no indoctrination, no servitude to the man. Why did Stalin kill all the intellectuals in russia when he had the chance? cause they could think for themselves and would have taken him down by informing the masses if given the chance.

careful what you wish for 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:44 | 3515582 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

Prains, you obviously didn't go to one of our esteemed universities in the US. They are indoctrination mills, and you can forget about thinking critically or out of the box (unless is it some non-applicable shit like theoretical physics or some such).

When it comes to how moneyis divied up, social policies, etc......there is only one belief accepted for matriculation: liberalism. Period. End of story. I know.

I went to about 5 colleges, including elite ones.

All the same.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:00 | 3515629 prains
prains's picture

yes, i can't say anything about an american university experience but what is being described is NOT at all my experience. I've had working experience with american grads on a small scale and can only draw small conclusions. The two harvard grads i worked with in different eras were both total douche bags both as human beings and peers. Self entitled wanks of head shaking proportion. Grads from California, Arizona, Washington, Oregon were all genuine as people, sincere, hard working and not at all indoctrinated, (except for their sports team affiliations, then it gets a little wonky). Generally, the stereotyping of college grads is a little over the top and what is being described is more a human condition in every walk of life yet it gets magnified in a small census group like a college setting. It's no different in a factory.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 23:46 | 3516656 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

I don't like stereotyping either, but I have found that it is for the most part accurate. The college kids are good, but they (90-100%) voted for Obama. Ask the ones that you work with. You'll see. 

It's not a repub vs. dem thing. I care for neither.

It's the fact they actually believe in this man, "hope n' change".

Like the tooth fairy. 

They are naive fools, and will continue to suffer due to their own machinations.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:09 | 3515643 1000924014093
1000924014093's picture

I went to one of the most left-wing Universities this side of Berkeley and all it did was turn me into a rabid libertarian.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:15 | 3515654 prains
prains's picture

see universities still make insurrectionists that don't default straight to anarchy, this is a good thing!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:33 | 3515697 TuesdayBen
TuesdayBen's picture

I attended a large Midwestern university........

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:03 | 3516321 TuesdayBen
TuesdayBen's picture

What, no one else here read Penthouse Forum back in the day?

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 19:23 | 3520309 mkkby
mkkby's picture

I studied a hard science at an American university, and I can say that there was very little indoctrination.  Math is math, and science is science -- where ever you learn it, it is the same and politics doesn't enter into it. 

It did take some economics and finance courses for fun, and it definitely was an indoctrination.  Keynes was a genius and the markets are perfectly rational... all that utter crap that we laugh and cry about now.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:25 | 3515515 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Higher Education = Higher Affirmation

Colleges and Universities = Dream Factories

Remember in Pinocchio when that guy fools Pinocchio and his friend into skipping school and playing pool and smoking cigars before he turns them into mules for his factory?

That guy now works at the University/College, selling the fantasy so the majority of those kids leave feeling affirmed but becoming mules for the kleptoligarchy.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:30 | 3515527 prains
prains's picture

i actually got told the exact opposite. my final pep talk by my thesis supervisor upon graduating and i'll quote him exactly;

"what ever you do, don't let the fuckers niggerize you"....... and he was right, no dream factory. maybe this is just an american phenomena......ergo........*^^*


legit quote circa 1996

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:34 | 3515547 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

You got lucky.

Guys like that are being weeded out as fast as the intelligentsia can get rid of them.

There is an atmosphere on most modern campuses of strident progressive communalism blended with a kind of totalitarian arrogance wrapped in faux humanism - nauseatingly frightening if you experience it.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:48 | 3515596 prains
prains's picture

can't argue with that as an element within university settings, had a father (since deceased) who operated for 33 years as a tenured prof and saw this on a daily basis (hence the evening beers) what you describe is not new but agreed it has definitely flourished. the university setting is and always will be the home to manufacturing both 'institutionalists' as well as 'insurrectionalists',the pendulum swing between these two poles will always seek an equilibrium. 'Anonymous', 'Lulzsec' are examples of the insurrectionists taking back turf lost over the years to the institutionalists. Pendulum's always gonna swing

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 01:10 | 3516814 white_guy
white_guy's picture

that was absolutely beautifully worded

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:48 | 3515386 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

This also substantially impacts the cost/benefit analysis:


"An antibiotic-resistant strain of gonorrhea—now considered a superbug—has some analysts saying that the bacteria's effects could match those of AIDS."

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:51 | 3515388 RopeADope
RopeADope's picture

A more accurate graph would show percent of each population that is employed and how that's trending.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:57 | 3515415 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

As requested:

From the BLS

Labor force participation 55 and Older:

Graph of Civilian Labor Force Participation Rate -  55 years and over

Labor force participation 20-24:

Graph of Civilian Labor Force Participation Rate - 20 to 24 years

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:58 | 3515426 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

LOL that's fucking depressing as hell!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:03 | 3515446 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Do those stats include prostitution?  Been in the mood for some "saggy", if you catch my drift.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:06 | 3515462 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

The oldest gals often have no teeth — another competitive advantage over their younger lady-of-the-night counterparts.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:15 | 3515504 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Gumjob, bitchez. +1.

You gotta figure they wouldn't have any STDs, because what microbe would survive that environment?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:33 | 3515689 knukles
knukles's picture

Have 'em take out their dentures and a squirt of KY


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:01 | 3515440 CVfriendship
CVfriendship's picture

And that is what all my friends working under the table/living at home looks like in a frown chart...  Thankful for my job.... just as thankful for having an egregiously better sense of what's really going on out there thanks to this site.


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:16 | 3515508 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

"Thankful for my job"



Summer Analyst at Wall Street Bank
Financial Advisor at large insurance firm
Associate/Asst.Portfolio Manager/Trader at Start-up Hedge Fund
Senior Analyst at Investment Mgmt Firm



Jeez ~ I think I'd slit my wrists... But I'm sure it's cakewalk city for you... So carry on...





Wed, 05/01/2013 - 09:23 | 3517422 CVfriendship
CVfriendship's picture

Play the game...prepare for the pain. My strategy.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:20 | 3515511 frenchie
frenchie's picture

i will be 35 this year, i guess i should be happy ?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:26 | 3515531 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Welcome to the party, pal.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:53 | 3515617 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

When interviewing the 100 yr old man on his birthday, he was asked "In all your days did you ever hope to live to be 100?", he responded, "yeah, on my 99th birthday".

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:33 | 3516077 AGuy
AGuy's picture

I think the problem is most 55+ want to wind down their career and retire, and not work until the drop. But haven't gotten squeeze by the roller coaster name "Stock market", Housing bubble, and real negative interest rates, they don't have that option. So they will work until the drop or until they can't find work anymore.


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:05 | 3516332 TuesdayBen
TuesdayBen's picture

Time to move out on your own and get that first real job

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:22 | 3515516 de3de8
de3de8's picture

Experience and work ethic

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:33 | 3515549 negative rates
negative rates's picture

My name is Manule Labor.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:09 | 3515637 W T F II
W T F II's picture

The 'ol Converge-Diverge, eh...? We used to run that play in the street back in the day.

If you hold a mirror up to it, it will not be breathing...!! But hey, the Fed knows that already. It's THEIR data...!!

I say the Chair craters it all tomorrow...

b t an fewer than three Ivy Leaguers call me weekly for jobs...As my 640 Verbal SAT tells their 780 Verbal SAT..."call back next month"...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:45 | 3516468 Dr.Engineer
Dr.Engineer's picture

Tyler you are amazing.

Now how many more credits do I need before I get my B.S. degree from ZH?

Keep it up.  I need that education and not brainwashing.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:51 | 3515394 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

I graduated with over 240 people from my class. And when I go on linkedin, I find about 15 people who made it into management.
Sad... already 6 death after 11 years, 3 in the looney house as far as I know and a lot ended up in factories and about half in sales.
that's what fucked up a lot of careers. For the first 5 years, factory jobs and sales are the best payers and the low level shit pays terrible for these first few years and a lot don't put in the extra effort and mock you.
Than after 6 years, your salary increases with 12% a year and they stop talking to you :)

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:01 | 3515438 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

It is one of my fears for my kids -- that they will "settle" for a low potential job in order to make the first real money of their lives, but miss the opportunity to advance by doing so. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:44 | 3516104 AGuy
AGuy's picture

" low potential job in order to make the first real money of their lives, but miss the opportunity to advance by doing so. "

What Advancement? The only chance of getting advancement is to get a STEM degree. STEM jobs will focused on automating everything that isn't STEM. Manufacturing, Business process are all being automated. What can't be automated is been shipped oversea to be handled by low cost labor. The only think that is left is retail, but even that is taking a hit as consumers turn to the Web (sales automation) instead go going to stores.

That said, we are facing a pending energy crunch as Domestic Production (Ngas, Oil) slips back to its long term trend, and global production takes a dive. Besides of a resource problem we have a major overpopulation problem that is going to lead to another global war.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:11 | 3515485 bluskyes
bluskyes's picture

haha, I didn't even finish high-school, but I did manage to get into college based on some of the credits i had. I took the co-op program, and when I went for my co-op interview 8 months later, I told my prospective boss that I had no interest in school, and that I wanted to stay, and work.

I worked my ass off, and made my way working on the shit that no one else wanted to touch. Old computer systems that weren't sexy. 11 years, and 2 corporate takeovers later - I incorporated my own company, and quit my day job. Now I make make over 120k/yr

These parents who pay for their children's education - only teach the children to be dependent, and useless.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:42 | 3515534 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture




What amazes me is the attitude among contemporary college graduates that they now have a piece of paper that 'guarantees' them a high salary. Oh, and by the way, they also expect to be promoted to president of the company within 3 years.

Today, a college diploma is nothing but a screening tool for employers; it's the price of admission; but you still need to work your butt off and actually produce. How many of these new grads stop and consider that their salary will be directly related to how much value they create for their company/employer? It doesn't matter how smart you are or how hard you work; if you can't provide value for your employer, you're worthless.

Like you, I worked my way up through jobs that nobody else wanted until I managed to invent my own niche market. I only got the law degree later because I needed it to practice...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:43 | 3515574 GubbermintWorker
GubbermintWorker's picture

Pay for their education? Hell no, we're loaning them the money. The daughter has paid half of it back so far and the son is half way through college.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:52 | 3515401 Silversinner
Silversinner's picture


CME president says"That is going to show you people don't want certificates,

they want the real product"

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:03 | 3515436 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:12 | 3515486 Thisson
Thisson's picture

That is an interesting comment, but physical gold coins did get less expensive when gold dropped.  Premium %%s went up somewhat, but the overall cost was lower.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:22 | 3515514 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

The man worships volume.  All exchanges worship volume.

Nice tit window on that interviewer. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:55 | 3515402 Uncle Zuzu
Uncle Zuzu's picture

Art history with a connected daddy is making 10x the salary of computer engineer with no connected daddy.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:31 | 3515897 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Common People, FTW!

"She came from Greece she had a thirst for knowledge
She studied sculpture at Saint Martin's College, that's where I caught her eye.
She told me that her Dad was loaded
I said in that case I'll have a rum and coke-cola."

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 16:53 | 3515405 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

If some of these guys were to figure out how to run a machine tool rather than major in Underwater Eastern Lit, they could pick the job they wanted.  More overtime than they care to take on.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:02 | 3515432 Helix6
Helix6's picture

Yep.  Right after they emmigrated to China.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:04 | 3515451 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

No, you just need to emmigrate to Texas.  Machinist are in high demand for oil industry.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:37 | 3515565 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



We used to teach college students to do things.

Now we teach them merely to know things...


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:49 | 3515598 A Middle Child ...
A Middle Child of History's picture

I work as a CNC machinist in ND. I get paid shit. Jobs in manual machining are great if you have the years and years of experience to even be considered for them. Used to be, machine shops would take on apprentices to do the menial labor and learn the trade and gain the experience needed to be worth the high pay. Now they pay the experienced machinist less to do those duties as well with the unspoken threat that if they refuse, someone younger and more desperate will take their place. Automation is killing the industry, and the second wave is coming with the advent of lower cost 3D printers capable of printing in metal. Yes, there will always be a need for a few highly skilled, highly paid manual machinists to do work that is cost ineffective for robots to do, but damn few of those will be needed.

I am biding my time until the Great Reset, when production will be local, and electricity severely curtailed. I own an old 1890s era jackshaft driven metal shaper, know all about charcoal making and gasification generators, cutting and welding with acetylene as well as welding with stick and tig. I can fabricate by hand, and can use an anvil and a forge. Not that any employer gives two shits about any of that. Most want a monkey that is fast on the start button and will not deviate from the engineer produced (and infallible) programs. Someday, my skills and knowledge will be needed again, and the CNC monkey will be SOL.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:39 | 3515720 noless
noless's picture

for real, except im the someone younger and more desperate who will take their place, it's bullshit.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:31 | 3515907 Awakened Sheeple
Awakened Sheeple's picture

Learn how to program. I used to sit and watch programs run to learn G and M coding. Shops want operators who can do everything. If your employer offers tuition reimbursement, take advantage of it. Show initiative. You may have to move around to get into a place that pays well, but keep at it.

And if you do get into a decent place, don't think you'll get rich shorting the markets with your hard earned gains, lol.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:55 | 3516147 AGuy
AGuy's picture

yes, You can even learn at home, You can buy the Student addition of Solidworks for about $200 and learn 3-D CAD for next to nothing. Although I don't know if there is a student version of any decent CAM software.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:40 | 3515715 noless
noless's picture

i've been considering texas, but i'm still waiting to see if my home state will get its head out of it's ass, otherwise im there. jobs are spotty where im at, jumping around through a temp agency to whichever shop is overworked at the moment due to the ridiculous low balling they need to do just to catch some work.  i can swing it for now, but you can tell that alot of places are barely treading water through high ticket short term contracts, basically exactly what im having to do but on a larger scale...


my wage is bullshit, and i have pretty much no room to negotiate.. but it's something, always better than nothing i guess.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:46 | 3515742 fnordfnordfnord
fnordfnordfnord's picture

Must habla espanol, and be willing to work third world conditions and hours. Benefits (shitty ones) after two years full-time!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:00 | 3515800 Alpha Monkey
Alpha Monkey's picture

If the plant doesn't explode first!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:08 | 3515455 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

When China offers real wages in a real currency, you will see those real worker emigrate to get real jobs doing real things that add real value to build real wealth.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 17:36 | 3515552 Alpha Monkey
Alpha Monkey's picture

Before I go, they're also going to have to offer real environmental/health standards. 

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