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CME Chairman On Gold: “People Don’t Want Gold Certificates, They Want the Real Product”

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Mike Krieger of Liberty BlitzKrieg

What’s interesting about gold, when we had that big break two weeks ago we saw all the gold stocks trade down significantly, we saw all the gold products trade down significantly, but one thing that did not trade down, was gold coins, tangible real  gold.  That’s going to show you, people don’t want certificates, they don’t want anything else.  They want the real product .

Terrence Duffy, President and Executive Chairman of CME Group Inc,. on Bloomberg TV

I’m actually still in a state of shock that the head of the CME Group would make such an observation and in such blunt terms.  I mean the guy admits that volume on his exchanges suck, yet basically claims paper gold (one of their marquee products) is becoming irrelevant.  In my mind there are two likely explanations for this.  1) This is how he has started to feel personally and he is loading up on physical gold rather than his company’s paper products and would like some cover if that is ever unearthed. 2) This is what people close to the gold market are telling him and he’d rather make it clear he understands that paper is paper and gold is gold and that there is a big difference.  So “caveat emptor” if you are hanging around the COMEX.

His comments on gold come in at the 0:40 mark.  Simply stunning.


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Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:33 | 3515698 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

OMG, the CME has gone rogue. Call in the drones.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:38 | 3515709 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Better nuke it from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:39 | 3515713 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

I'll take the Under on a retraction from Duffy Alex.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:41 | 3515719 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


Self-Dieselling can be fun.

Duffy is a stacker anyways.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:42 | 3515733 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

What's wrong with people? You'd think they were losing trust in the system.

I can't imagine why.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:48 | 3515756 toys for tits
toys for tits's picture

They'll probably start making the certificates out of gold.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:51 | 3515767 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

He said:  What’s interesting about gold ....... that did not trade down, was gold coins, tangible real gold  People want the real stuff.

LOL.  What I say is:  What’s interesting about gold ....... is that anyone would be interested in buying a promissory note for the real thing from an exchange that is known for outright theft and lying.


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:53 | 3515779 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

3) Force Majure is coming soon to a Comex near you.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:29 | 3515887 French Frog
French Frog's picture

You wouldn't have the CME chairman saying that if there wasn't a hidden agenda behind it. Come on, do you really expect one of the main guy in the middle of this Bernanke-induced fairytale story that "everything is getting better because stocks are up" to actually tell you something that would be in your interest ???

Rather than being bullish for Gold, I think this is the first step in the next orchastrated take down of Gold. Get more & more people to go Long on the 'Gold is on sale now' bandwagon before a huge takedown that will make the recent drop look like a picnic.

I suspect that next time we will break some big round number (like well below $1000) & that will get even some of the most committed persons to question the link between currency devaluation & Gold going up.

And this time the stories coming out of all the MSM will be exactly the opposite of what were hearing now: next time everybody and their dog will be reporting that people are getting rid of their physical Gold.

I think that then, and only then, Gold really will be 'on sale' for the opportunity of a lifetime.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:38 | 3515901 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

French you are missing one big aspect. Look at PMI today. The economy is in shambles. This is a depression. Look at the stock market today. CNBS could not even fake it. Even they hit the wall at trying to reconcile the economy and the market. Everyone knows this is one gigantic lie. Now many people will keep playing and getting hands dealt to them, trying to play this bubble and exit just in time. Some will win and some will get decapitated. But the point is everyone has sniffed out that the gold takedowns are all rigged. Every takedown will be met with more and more buying. By taking it down they will only be speeding up the timetable on their demise.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:57 | 3515988 French Frog
French Frog's picture

"they will only be speeding up the timetable on their demise."

Look, I first laid eyes on ZH more than 3 years ago and I don't think that anyone then could or would even have contemplated that 3 years down the road the Dow would be 50% higher than where it was on that famous flash-crash takedown day (sub-10000), but here we are with the Dow knocking at the 15000 door.

I agree with you that it will all end in tears eventually but if the last 3 years have taught us anything, it's that they have the means to keep the game going for a lot longer than any rational mind would think possible. So when one of the muppets involved in that scam is happy to go on TV to agree with one of our most-cherished long-term view here @ZH, that raises one hell of a big big red contrarian flag to me and I think that the opposite is more likely to happen (ie Gold will be taken down much further first and the long-term parabolic move up in Gold is further away than even ZH thinks).

Just my 2 non-fiat cents view of the situation,

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:14 | 3515991 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Believe me I am not holding up this guys interview as proof of anything. But everything else I said I stand by. Sure if you throw trillions at these markets you will get nominal growth. But even at 1400, gold has doubled since 2007 and the rest of the markets are only back where they were.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:50 | 3516130 TheProphet
TheProphet's picture

And that is the point. The stock market has moved up 50% in nominal terms, but when measured in anything of stable value (like gold) the market is actually down quite a bit.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:58 | 3516152 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Buy buy buy, constrained supply, buy buy buy, JPM has lost all their gold, buy buy buy..

Always the right time to buy gold!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:07 | 3516187 akak
akak's picture

As long as madmen and sociopaths are in charge of our financial and monetary system, and increasingly showing signs of desperation as their corrupt systems crash around their (and our) ears, then yes, it IS the right time to buy gold!  Or at least do SOMETHING to shield one's savings from the predators-that-be.

Your frequent and implicit defense of conventional, mainstream, pro-status-quo, head-in-sand thinking never ceases to disgust me.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:34 | 3516243 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

I am not buying "paper" food or ammo either.  The closest thing to a silver futures contract in my "investment portfolio" is having to wait 3-4 weeks for my latest online silver order.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:24 | 3516317 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

These guys aren't stupid. They never come down on the wrong side of the fence.

When a large company nears the edge of the cliff (think Enron here), you will see CEOs, Directors and Executives siphoning wealth from the company into their own pockets (selling shares etc.). This is Life Boat Economics 101.

The Gold Take Down was to achieve one thing and one thing only; to line the pockets of the CEOs and Director of the Wall Street & Mercantile 'Click Group' using JPM Eligible Gold and buying the fruit which fell when the tree was shaken (physical Gold & Silver off the Allocated and Unallocated COMEX sellers during the Take Down).

Old Duffy-Boy here must have already received his allocation (pay-off) of the JP Morgue 'Eligible Gold'...disappearing act.

Watch how little interference PMs have climbing up past $2,000/oz now the ‘Click’ are on board.

These guys now have their Life Boats in the water, at the ready. All they need is a good push...for Gold and Silver to finally have their run.

Here ya go


This smacks of an impending major disturbance in the 'Force'.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:39 | 3516434 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

One of the more interesting things learned from the movie Argo was that when the Shah of Iran fled Iran his 747 almost didn't get off the ground due to the amount of gold loaded on to the plane.  Yeah, they get theirs first, and fuck everyone else. 

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 01:34 | 3516491 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

That's right FED-man.

These guys (JPM, Goldman, Hedge Funds etc.) weren't panicking about the Gold price being high, they were panicking because Gold was getting too dry and they hadn't prep'd their Life Boat yet (physical). So they did a hasty ambush on the market to free-up physical and bagged whatever they could. This meant they needed to;
1. Short the market and get others to help
2. Manipulate those skull-fucks in the MSM to tout Gold down
3. Shove physical from JPM out the door just prior to the Take Down (which is what we saw just a few days prior)
4. Get cleints to sell-off long Gold and physical positions
5. Buy up big on physical just after the tree shake

These guys bagged Tons of Gold from the Muppets....TONS!

The next phase will be to switch to the side of the Gold Bugs and attempt to crash futures contracts by creating a panic run  into physical. What's the paper:fiz ratio, 100:1 or so? What a bomb!

You watch, that shit is coming.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

But what happens when your enemy becomes your ally?

I'd bet my left testicle that the CME Group, JP Morgue, Goldman (to name a few) have already had a meeting much like this one, and, when you take onboard everythng that's happened over the past month, then, Duffy's comments place us right

Enjoy the coming Fireworks ZH'ers!

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 03:07 | 3516919 Treason Season
Treason Season's picture

Clique not click

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 04:29 | 3516967 Acet
Acet's picture

Also "Clique Group" is redundant.

[OMG, I've turned into a grammar nazi!]

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 05:10 | 3516992 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

Gee, thanks Mum!

Got any thoughts of your own besides grammar?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:10 | 3516353 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Mmmm, Aurum -- stay hungry my friends! :>D

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:09 | 3516188 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

You can do better James. I am not telling anyone what to do.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:23 | 3516210 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

The gold fever is getting a bit out of hand.. I don't hear people going nuts over Platinum but its recovered decently off its lows. 

I've got the feeling that when the cheerleading gets going people are off running to dump every last $ they have into coins even though it's pretty unlikely this is a bottom & this train moves slower than these articles suggest - it's very unlikely to be a moon shot next week. 

If equities crash you will see a drop in pm price & considering almost everyone on here expects an equity crash, why the gold fever?  

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:26 | 3516216 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

WTF gold fever are you talking about? This is a fringe blog. Go check out the MSM and ask about gold fever. Go ask Jon stewart about gold fever.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:35 | 3516250 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

First, the guy (CME no less) says a couple lines about gold coins and there's wild speculation:

"In my mind there are two likely explanations for this.  1) This is how he has started to feel personally and he is loading up on physical gold rather than his company’s paper products and would like some cover if that is ever unearthed. 2) This is what people close to the gold market are telling him and he’d rather make it clear he understands that paper is paper and gold is gold and that there is a big difference."

And second, zh is not a 'fringe' blog - sorry to burst everyone's bubble:

Periodically zh goes into overdrive with the 'buy gold' articles and this is one of those periods. I know people get burned though.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:37 | 3516258 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

This James Cole is no better than Johnny Bravo or Math Man.

Mish used to have a poster of that name but this dolt seems way too stupid to be the same guy.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:38 | 3516265 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

What's your call James? Stocks? Cash? Bonds?

Stop being obsessed with an opressed minority (hopw many people actually own phyz?) and put your balls on the table. Where are you putting your dough?

Better yet go to Huffpo and get after it with them. Do some good.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:59 | 3516299 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

AAPL bonds lol

Anyway, where I put my money is pretty irrelevant - I'm not Warren Buffett over here - just pointing out that the pm sell-side guys are working their magic fairy dust and people should likely take a step back before swallowing it wholesale and forking over their cash.

Whenever you're buying, someone is that transaction both sides believe they're getting the better deal, do you know more than the person selling to you? 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:01 | 3516311 akak
akak's picture



And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy goldbug brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine paperbug's own eye?

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 00:34 | 3516784 Luxy
Luxy's picture


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:07 | 3516336 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

i measure up my risks and take my shots. that is all you can do.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:21 | 3516380 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

i measure up my risks and take my shots. that is all you can do.

And you probably don't advocate buying on emotion or expectations of a quick ramp, but taking two seconds to look over the comments the two most apparent things are people getting really emotional over the 'story' of gold (little guy against the evil empire, empire is about to be slain) and desperate to buy more asap.  

I'm just trying to throw some cold water around. The likelihood of a ramp from here isn't near high enough to justify all the hyperbole. Personally I still think there's a decent amount of downside to consider. 

And even worse is some people talking about buying the miners... 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:35 | 3516246 akak
akak's picture

James, if anyone here were just as enthusiastically advocating putting part of one's savings into physical platinum, or palladium, or rhodium, I have no doubt that you would be similarly badmouthing and denigrating them for doing so as well.

Your anti-anti-authority bias here is clear.  I am merely undecided yet on whether you are just a good sheep parroting the 'mainstream', pro-establishment line, or are actually a paid disinformation agent.  Either seems quite likely.  Possibly both.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:42 | 3516279 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

James, if anyone here were just as enthusiastically advocating putting part of one's savings into physical platinum, or palladium, or rhodium

At these prices yes, and particularly if they were claiming the plat futures were being used to manipulate the price down and that there's a secret plot to buy up all the physical creating a disconnect between the 'paper' platinum price and the 'physical' platinum price. But no one makes that case with platinum oddly... but for some reason it makes perfect sense with silver? 

If people want to get into the markets or expand their current holdings I'm not taking issue with it but I just say do it slowly & don't buy the hype.

Salespeople always play to emotion and speed cause it works. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:33 | 3516236 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Sure if you throw trillions at these markets you will get nominal growth. But even at 1400, gold has doubled since 2007 and the rest of the markets are only back where they were."


And all that time...if you hung on through gut wrenching all of it...the time, is now gone. Time has value, one will never get it back, its been stolen. Then one considers, what has one gotten back?

A lower value currency for hanging onto stock for the ride down...eggscellent ;-)

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 12:06 | 3518284 phalfa5
phalfa5's picture

smartest (french)frog across the pond

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:00 | 3515992 138
138's picture

Why would the head of the CME say something like this? I'm sure that he didn’t do it without the permission of his masters. Is it just another set up for a smackdown? it that they have reached the point where their battle against deflation is over and they've lost? It could be that they know they've got only one move drive the price of physical gold so high that it would wipe out all of the debt throughout the system.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:43 | 3516109 olto
olto's picture

There is no 'plan', imo, that TPTB are capable of carrying out.

A  more likely case is that they lose control continually and can only push the buttons in panic-----these dudes are not that bright---they simply have all the money, political power (including security forces and arms), and the judicial system of this broken 'Machine'---under their beck and call to control more than 300 million ignorant and docile trolls/slaves/serfs------


Please, do not ask 'when' because, maybe, in our case that day will never come.

These markets are completely artificial and 'made-up'-------out-of-control and spastic------like TPTB.

And, I don't know a thing about it     

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:08 | 3516190 espirit
espirit's picture

There are such things called "outcomes", most predictable while some are not, and it doesn't take a wizzard to understand the progression.

Do not underestimate your enemy, as battles can be lost before the first shot (arrow) is fired.

Sun Tzu ref I think.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 23:21 | 3516598 olto
olto's picture

And then there are 'unintended consequences'--------

I like those guys-----so unprdictable and interesting

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 06:09 | 3517033 flyingpigg
flyingpigg's picture

What he said was: "gold products trade down significantly, but one thing that did not trade down, was gold coins"

Bull-shit because the coins traded down significantly. Premiums over paper were higher than usual but the prices I paid for 1 oz Maples were lowest in the last 12 months. So my suspicion is that he just wants the average Joe to believe that coins remained expensive to keep Joe from buying. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:30 | 3516060 overbet
overbet's picture

What the data shows and what I see are totally different. One example, I live in Las Vegas and I went to the outlet mall downtown this past weekend. There are some high mid level priced stores there like several hundred for a pair of jeans and many designer stores to give you an idea (not Walmart priced shit). When i pulled in every outside parking lot was full and dozens of cars were double parked waiting for people to leave so they could park. The 6 or 7 level parking garage was full and a security guard was standing at the entrance no letting anyone. The valet (which charges $6) was full. I had to give the valet a $20 to fucking double park me. There was no special event it was just a Saturday. The stores were packed and people were carrying as many bags as at Christmas time.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:38 | 3516094 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Credit cards are magical things, aren't they?

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 10:52 | 3517824 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Plus, it's Vegas. I wouldn't use it as the rule, but the exception.


Lots of $$, drugs and hookers in Vegas. The city that *actually* never sleeps.


Plus lots of underwater mofos who haven't made a  mortgage payment in a year or more.


Vegas, what happens there is crazy shit that has no bearing on the *real* world. Wake me up when Lake Mead is dry and Vegas is back to a 2 stoplight dusty desert town.  

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:52 | 3515975 Unpopular Truth
Unpopular Truth's picture

Is "protection" from the government on its way? Like Nixon did: Gold confiscation... to "protect" us from investments that are clearly worthless?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:55 | 3515977 outamyeffinway
outamyeffinway's picture


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:04 | 3516001 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

New laws like in Britain, where even possession of one ounce of gold, gives police and prosecutors the right to arrest you with presumption you are GUILTY of holding the proceeds of crime ... and YOU have the burden of proof to show otherwise.

A dozen or so people already jailed under this 'presumption' ... article re large-scale raids on 'private' safety-deposit boxes:

« Under the Proceeds of Crime Act of 2002 (known as POCA), valuables and cash above £1,000 are presumed by the police to be the proceeds of crime, unless you can prove otherwise, a total reversal of the presumption of innocence. Aside from those three dozen or so people found guilty, the vast majority of the 3,500-plus box owners have turned out to be innocent. Yet their money was confiscated, and in many cases is still being held, by the Metropolitan Police or the Inland Revenue. The owners have spent nearly three years and thousands of pounds in uncompensated legal fees having to justify why they kept their personal belongings in safety deposit boxes and how they came by them in the first place. »

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:11 | 3516191 Sabibaby
Sabibaby's picture

I bet the brits wish they had guns.

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 06:33 | 3516262 nmewn
nmewn's picture

And a decent dentist or two.


I was just conducting a little survey of how many Brits were commenting. Looks like five, thanks for participating ;-)

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:00 | 3516165 GoldForCash
GoldForCash's picture

Of course I do believe you are right. Keep your heads and keep your PM.
Parabolic just around the corner....

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:30 | 3516238 GoldForCash
GoldForCash's picture

Of course I do believe you are right. Keep your heads and keep your PM.
Parabolic just around the corner....

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:36 | 3515922 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Over in Turdland it's known as a Force Manure. 

... badump-bump, pssshh ...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:31 | 3516241 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

I can tell you a lot of hedge fund guys are just tired of this charade, bring it own. The only one who will cry about the end of the charade is Krugman. Everyone else I think is more or less bring it own, let get over with this joke of a monetary system so we can start over and get back to investing for real instead of speculating endelessly. Enough. It is not even fun anymore.



Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:39 | 3516098 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

The Real stuff is the counterparty to FIAT.  Duh? 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:57 | 3515795 negative rates
negative rates's picture

A bubble gum stick of tungstum wrapped in real gold foil.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:03 | 3515813 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Hey, sometimes paper is just as good as the real thing. Ever consider that $5 worth of McDonalds gift certificates have the same nutritional value as $5 worth of burgers and fries?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:05 | 3515819 akak
akak's picture

And healthier too --- just think of all the fiber!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:18 | 3515868 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Those nickle hambergers as a scout was a big deal. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:40 | 3515929 bluskyes
bluskyes's picture

Yeah, but while the certificate will degrade over time - the happy meal will remain unspoiled.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:41 | 3516102 Slightly Insane
Slightly Insane's picture

I would rather have $5 dollars worth of "shit tickets".  That's the valuable paper, and it ain't FIAT.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:26 | 3515881 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Willy Wonka!

I want to run the mint!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:52 | 3516132 PiratePawpaw
PiratePawpaw's picture

I cant remember ever trusting the system....but then Im a skeptic.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:45 | 3515735 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Wow, this was a Major News Flash, I just hope Captain Obvious gets it.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:58 | 3515803 Cacete de Ouro
Cacete de Ouro's picture

Obviously Terry Duffy was chatting to Leo Mahlamed, former CEO of the CME. Recall that Mr Mahlamed asked for his 200 ozs of gold from the Comex very recently and they wouldn't give it to him, and only offered a receipt.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:28 | 3515894 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture


Leo's name is properly spelled Melamed.  He is still the Chairman Emeritus of CME.

Please provide a link to your statement that Mr Melamed was forced to settle 2 Comex gold contracts for script and not bullion.  Thx.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:04 | 3516171 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

FWIW, I was at a LCS in Vista, CA today (the owner has been in business 50 years). He says nobody has silver to sell. I told him Tulving says he has lots of silver in stock. He said he doesn't and nobody claiming inventory like that is telling the truth. He says delays and shortages are the norm for now, at least a month or two out. He also added he would be willing to sell the silver he had left (ASE's) for $32 and nothing less.

Things appear to be unraveling in the silver market from what I can gather (physical disconnect). 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:30 | 3516196 akak
akak's picture

Oh no, Bay, both you and that coin shop owner simply MUST be mistaken!

According to Bron Suchecki (honorary junior Nadler) of the Perth Mint, all is well, and ALL talk of precious metal shortages is just "conspiracy theory":

Read this pro-establishment propaganda (s)hit piece by Bron carefully --- not only does he deny that there is any current or possible disconnect between the paper and physical PM prices, he categorically if implicitly denies that there CAN or EVER WILL be any such price disconnect.  In other words, Mr. Suchecki is trying to convince us that all is well in the paper PM world, and that all be ALWAYS be well in the paper PM world.

This guy, frankly, is hardly any better as an ostensible spokesman for the precious metals than Jon Nadler was at Kitco.  I have read repeated and disingenuous (note, Orly) anti-goldbug, pro-establishment articles by this man for at least the last four years, always denying any problems, much less manipulations or irregularities, in the precious metals markets.  And the reasons for his subtle if unmistakeable anti-PM sentiments are probably exactly the same as those which fueled Jon Nadler's anti-gold biases: both men probably are (or in Nadler's case, were) running "allocated" as well as unallocated PM Ponzi schemes at their respective companies, lucratively selling certificates supposedly backed by on-hand metal that most likely has been sold over and over to multiple owners, and so any trend towards a flight into physical but NOT paper precious metals inherently threatens their fractionally-reserved paper PM scams.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:31 | 3516229 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

This owner said Tulving could go bust playing this game (as he did years before). Dangerous times buying from dealers who are basically taking peoples money when they are out of inventory (and lying about it), and then waiting days/weeks/months for the silver to show up and ship out.

Btw, isn't the Perth mint way behind on their orders? What kind bullshit is that guy peddling?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:08 | 3516339 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Haven't you heard? There is no shortage of silver. It just seems every dealer on the planet uses the "just in time" inventory business model and a temporary blip in demand wiped them all out at once. It's just a coincidence, I swear.

BTW, APMEX claims to have 80,000 ASE's in stock right now. Are they lying?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 23:00 | 3516453 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

80K ASE's? Yes, I would say yes, they are not telling the whole truth there. Tulving says he has shitloads too. I don't believe it because my friend ordered 2500oz's two weeks ago and doesnt have it yet and the LCS owner I talked to today says they are all playing the game of "in stock" invisible inventory. He says he cant get any silver right now, and it will be a month or two before things start to smooth out for him.


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:38 | 3516440 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture


Checking current prices at goldmoney, tulving and kitco for gold bullion ranging from 1-oz to kilo-bars I see the dealer price for quantity gold, not odd-lot coins, is less than 2% above spot.  In recent days I've asked other posters on ZH to explain how volume dealers can maintain their usual markups if there is a shortage of "size" bullion. 

I know for a fact that your allegation about Tulving being a liar is false.  The company makes delivery as advertised and contracted.  How about getting real here and dealing with facts instead of hiding behing an on-line nom-de-plume and smearing respectable dealers?  If you've got proof that you've been defrauded, how about you post your purchase orders in a spot that we at the 'hedge can access?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:51 | 3516487 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Calm down, Im not smearing Tulving as he has always been very good to deal with as far as Im concerned. I didnt say anything about being defrauded (although he did go bankrupt years ago and customers got stiffed). I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why there are delays and shortages thats all.  

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:22 | 3516385 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture


Thanks for the link, which is what I asked for.

However, in reading the info, I see it's hearsay.  Would appreciate if anyone can really verify that Melamed was forced to accept script instead of bullion.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:09 | 3516192 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

Does this qualify as the oh shit..  Moment??

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:37 | 3515932 DIgnified
DIgnified's picture

How can anyone downvote Ripley?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:42 | 3516100 thatthingcanfly
thatthingcanfly's picture

Wasn't it Corporal Hicks?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:38 | 3515704 LongSilverJohn
LongSilverJohn's picture

He must be shorting his own market...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:45 | 3515737 The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Jeffry Christian and Nadler better write him stern letters.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:52 | 3515752 akak
akak's picture

I wonder what ol' Nadless is doing since Kitco shitcanned his ass around the beginning of the year, a move that was only six years overdue.

From the gin blossoms seen on his face in every photo and interview over the past five years, I suspect that the emptying of liquor bottles has been integral to his recent lifestyle.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:55 | 3515778 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture



Nadler's gone to work at Barrick.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:57 | 3515784 akak
akak's picture

Has he really?

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if that snake has moved on to working for the Evil Empire itself.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:22 | 3515864 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

Munk led the way in shorting gold into oblivion.

Figures an ex-Goldman operator is now co-chair.  There may be a paper trail that needs to be carefully obscured.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:20 | 3515872 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Oh I do love it when those shitheads get caught--it's a thing of beauty.

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 02:34 | 3516891 Cacete de Ouro
Cacete de Ouro's picture

Stop the Press! Nadler quoted in recent article- hasn't changed his stripes - He is president of a company called International Metals Consultants..  lol

Disparraging goldbugs he says:

“They believe gold can only go one way: to the moon and no less than that,” said Jon Nadler, a seasoned gold skeptic and president of International Metals Consultants. “And if there is a set back of any magnitude, they go into denial.”



Wed, 05/01/2013 - 13:31 | 3518700 akak
akak's picture

He lives!

Although I cannot find a single reference, OTHER than that one, in an online search for "International Metals Consultants".  Another case of Nadler being a legend in his own mind?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:57 | 3515785 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

LOL, a fake gold pundit at a fake gold miner.

How's that considered work?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:00 | 3515798 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Well, they pay him in FRNs, which are fake money.

It all meshes together so nicely in a fake system.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:52 | 3515772 Spigot
Spigot's picture

JPM dumped $20 billion in options on the market (COMEX in NYC) in 15 minutes. CME is Chicago. This guy is speaking for his owners who were not in on the dumping and are sending a very strong notice to NYC: you're fucked now that you've done that dump...and we're on the side of the trade which will fuck you, so prepare your KY asses...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:00 | 3515799 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Looky what I just found. CME is coming out with a deliverable 1000 oz. silver contract.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:05 | 3515820 Spigot
Spigot's picture

And very possibly they will stall deliveries as long as they care to, possibly months, and then keep pestering you to take payment in cash with a bonus +30% for your troubles, etc. Games people play. If you want deliverable silver or gold go to the Refiner and buy there. Wave enough millions in their faces and they will put you at the front of the line and tell the others there was a production problem.

Truly, get physical, get it now. This MoFo is going to blow to the moon and the smoking crater it leaves behind will be like nothing on earth.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:18 | 3515861 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

What are your thoughts on the impact this will have on the miners that have been naked shorted to near oblivion ?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:25 | 3516041 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Miners are like Farmers. They will give them just enough to keep them working. If the workers strike the government will come in and nationalize the mine and hand it over to a contractor. Farmers are in the same boat. If the Farmer makes waves his government subsidies will be cut and he'll lose the Farm.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:18 | 3516370 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Air traffic controllers

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:48 | 3516116 Spigot
Spigot's picture

The landscape will be completely altered. Nations will nationalize producing assets (all). You'll wake up one day and it will look like the moon compared to what you see now. Rules will equal guns not some nice little market somewhere.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:03 | 3516331 Spigot
Spigot's picture

The landscape will be completely altered. Nations will nationalize producing assets (all). You'll wake up one day and it will look like the moon compared to what you see now. Rules will equal guns not some nice little market somewhere.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:15 | 3515858 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, how about that...nice find N/A and recent too. Between you and me it seems they're getting a little anxious.

Still, if its all the same to the CME, I don't like leaving paper trails.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:35 | 3515921 Wild tree
Wild tree's picture

Truth spoken Spigot, turn it wide open.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:06 | 3515996 BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

Logged in on my mobile just to +1 that shit.


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:34 | 3516256 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

His owners are JPM's owners, and JPM is undeniably higher up in the pecking order.  This guy may be signaling the end of the CME, more than explaining the preference for physical. He may be letting people know, the paper trades are worthless. But he's doing it for his bosses, and if he's not, he will be suicided.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:43 | 3515945 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

Or the miners will be going up.  The big banks have gone very negative on them too.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 21:40 | 3516264 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

I believe the miners are all being halted, to restrict the availability of physical, so I'm not sure miners will be going up... but I do hope they do, I have some shares of 1 mining fund, USAGX. It's down significantly the past 2 years. :/

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:39 | 3515706 Ag Tex
Ag Tex's picture

Better to be a gold bug and/or silver bug than a dung (paper) beetle.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:47 | 3515746 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

I'm stocking up on food, so I guess that makes me a bean weevil or something.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:04 | 3515817 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

Ammo grub, here.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:28 | 3515889 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

All three - but that probably makes me a terrorist.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:34 | 3516070 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

It only takes one of the three to make you a terrorist. Having all three makes you a Radicalized Fanatic. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:30 | 3515892 RobD
RobD's picture

Make it the four Bs.....Beans, Bullets, Bullion and Band-ads!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:15 | 3516018 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

+ booze,babe, babies and bunker.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:20 | 3516376 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

You have the makings of a reality TV show

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:36 | 3515712 terryfuckwit
terryfuckwit's picture

silver,gold and bitcoin bitchez

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:03 | 3515822 Blano
Blano's picture

Now don't, be, sad,

'cause 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:35 | 3515883 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

His name was Robert Paulson...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:10 | 3516011 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

His name was Hank Paulson.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:08 | 3515839 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Ammo too.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 22:21 | 3516382 Amagnonx
Amagnonx's picture

Even Ron Paul doesnt realize BTC is money - and while I sure respect the guy, Id have to ask him to go consult the definition.


BTC has some risks, it might actually have a backdoor and the banksters (or somebody) can counterfiet it - thats possible - thats really just a trust issue, the longer it stays around - the more capital it attracts the harder and more stringently it will be examined for loopholes.  


The other risk with BTC is that it requires a technological civilization to exist - so if there is a global EMP (which I am sure is being planned - our owners dont like the internets) - then BTC will suffer - and could even be destroyed by it.  So its existence is more fragile than gold and silver.


However - I have come to regard the monetary properties of BTC to be of a quality that exceeds gold and silver - given its not a bankster trick - then it has the power to utterly destroy the bank, and all the nation states (which are just retail outlets for the bank).


In summary, if you stack gold and silver for the right reasons - that is, you recognize them as money, then you should also recognize that BTC is money.


If we examine the monetary properties, we can analyze BTC with respect to them -

Divisible (superlative pass grade - as many decimal divisions as you wish)

Recognizable (superlative pass - the BTC network cannot accept anything not BTC)

Durable (acceptable pass grade - you can copy your BTC to 1,000 flash drives, forever making new copeis - in 20mil yrs from now, you can still have the same BTC - some can be hit by nukes, your BTC will survive - however, if the internet ceases to exist, then BTC is likely destroyed also)

Limited stock (acceptable pass grade - as far as we know at this time BTC cannot be counterfiet, and the total stock is finite - if we could be sure that it cannot be counterfiet, then this would be a superlative pass).

Accepted (acceptable pass grade - the total value of the BTC stock is valued at around 1mil oz of gold, while the other properties of BTC are found to hold - then this will surely increase, and this is the measure of acceptability).


In the above examples, I compare BTC to gold - however, BTC has properties that gold does not - it is a means of payment, it is also a public ledger and it can be transferred electronically.  So with BTC having a very acceptable grade as money, and combining it with its incredible advantages of electronic transfer, means of payment and public ledger - I forsee a future where the value fo the stock of BTC rises to match the stock of gold and silver - at least (thats around 25kg of gold per BTC).


There are those of course who stack gold because its shiny, and they bleat on about 'hard money' and what they know, when in fact they cant see a hand in front of their face.  They stack gold and silver because they have been told to, a rhesus monkey can stack gold and silver - but unless you understand the properties of gold and silver that makes them money, then you are just another breed of sheeple.


I save in silver, gold and BTC - I hold gold against total nuclear meltdown, I hold silver because it wins all outcomes, and I hold BTC because if it delivers on its promises - it will destroy the enemy of all men, the bank.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:39 | 3515714 beavertails
beavertails's picture

So, when are those stupid gold companies going to produce gold coins themselves to capture the twenty percent premium?  That's the stunned and stunning part.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:52 | 3515769 Right-on Left-off
Right-on Left-off's picture

So ... First Majestic has been doing this for years.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:06 | 3515824 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

So ... First Majestic has been doing this for years.

Nice stuff but irrelevant to their balance sheet. 

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:30 | 3515895 oddjob
oddjob's picture

They initiated bullion and strike sales because long time shareholders requested them to do so.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:40 | 3515716 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

It's a message meant for Ben Bernanke; "Sorry Ben, I tried but they're onto us. Better go with that Plan B thing you've got."

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:40 | 3515722 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Plan B, C, D, E, and F are all the same. Print MOAR and faster.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:03 | 3515810 negative rates
negative rates's picture

But you know when it gets to L for larry, and S for summers, that this place is on it's way out.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:17 | 3516026 koncaswatch
koncaswatch's picture

Yep cougar, Ben is going to take it to 15,000, put it on auto-pilot, don his golden parachute... and bail.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:40 | 3515717 Hangfire
Hangfire's picture

Now if GM could just convince people not to buy paper GM, but instead buy these damn Volt collecting dust in the lots things would be okay!   

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:00 | 3515793 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

It would of been better if our Government gave taxpayers Gold instead of GM. Things would be different.


GM  = Gold Mostly

Volt = vault



General Motors Co. losing $49,000.00 on every Chevrolet Volt electric car it sells.


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:24 | 3515878 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

$49K, huh? That's the first time I've been tempted to buy one.

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 02:35 | 3516892 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

They'll make it up in bulk...

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:39 | 3515721 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Gold fever is beginning to spread.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:44 | 3515729 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

The only prescription is more cowbell.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:44 | 3515732 akak
akak's picture

Golden cowbells are particularly resonant.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:04 | 3515827 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

They're the favorite of Bruce Dickinson.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:19 | 3516032 Croesus
Croesus's picture

@ McMolotov:

Moar Cowbell, as requested:



Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:38 | 3516085 ali-ali-al-qomfri
ali-ali-al-qomfri's picture

H2HAu virus - have to have gold

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:42 | 3515724 akak
akak's picture

Waiting for Jeffrey Christian to categorically deny the validity of Mr. Duffy's comments, and to once again declare "ALL IS WELL!" in the paper PM arena.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:40 | 3515726 nmewn
nmewn's picture

What just happened?

This man has obviously just taken leave of his paper backed, unicorn riding, highly leveraged fairy dust Krugman senses or sumpin.

This is a firing offense!

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:43 | 3515740 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

"I'll take my severance in physical Gold please."

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 19:23 | 3515832 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Here ya go CD, I know you & I love this

Deputies: Goldilocks intruder broke into home to masturbate, play with toy helicopter,0,7658110.story

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:31 | 3516063 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

"Post Miranda, the man told the deputy that he had passed by the home earlier and had noticed an unlocked door. The man then left to go to another address to get a paper bag that contained a wig, pouch of chewing tobacco, green towel and a salad before returning to the unsecured home, the affidavit stated."

Ok....I understand the purpose for everything except the salad. :)

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:39 | 3516096 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Never trust a vegan, with a toy fetish, carrying "homemade" salad dressing around with him.

Can I get a ewww? ;-)

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:52 | 3516114 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Mrs. Cog says I'm a pre-vert just talking to you. :)


Tue, 04/30/2013 - 20:51 | 3516138 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Thank you, nmewn, for the link to the Flori-duh blog. Fucking hilarious. I especially liked this one:


Wed, 05/01/2013 - 06:35 | 3517056 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Welcome sir, we have to laugh at ourselves sometimes too. Its one of my favorites, being as how I'm a Floriduh

Wed, 05/01/2013 - 06:35 | 3517054 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Mrs.Cog is a good judge of character ;-)

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:45 | 3515751 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

He knows no one is watching.

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:50 | 3515760 Possible Impact
Possible Impact's picture

"This is a firing offense!"

Yeah, but which caliber?

Tue, 04/30/2013 - 18:55 | 3515776 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Indeed. It's a firing squad offense.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!