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Silver At Just $1.79 Over Spot? There Is One Minor Catch...
Those who have been following the barren wasteland that is the precious metals retail market know that not only is it virtually impossible to get any silver for less than a $3-4 premium per ounce over spot, but it has become next to impossible to find any physical, period. So the fact that Apmex is now selling silver at just a $1.79 over spot - a bargain even in the days when JPM wasn't about to run out of commercial gold (incidentally no change in the gold held at the firm's 1 CMP vault as of yesterday's close), and certainly a blue light special at a time when the entire world is scrambling for anything shiny. There is however one minor catch. Maybe not so minor. Because while most PM afficionados are used to buying silver by the ounce, or at most bar, the Apmex offer involves a very generous dollop of Silver Koala. 1 Kilogram's worth of generous.
Yup: the $1.79 premium over spot offer is only applicable to 1 kilo (32.15 oz) "coins" - not exactly a conventional, "carry in your pocket" kind of weight, or one amenable to transactions in a post-Bernanke world.
Which brings up an interesting point: is the massive premium over spot for silver only due to the practical size of the most common, and thus cheapest, 1 oz denomination? Does silver only have a sizable physical premium when it is in a handy denomination - do heavier variants necessarily lose their premium over spot. And if so, is the relationship linear or convex - is there no premium at all if one was buying or selling all the physical outstanding (at least in a thought experiment).
Of course, it may just be a good liquidation deal (and no, ZH is not getting any money, or physical, for this post).
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Damn, that was funny, esp. the cat and dog parts. Thanks.
No the funny part was when he wrote- Please use some common sense before contacting me, don't be an idiot.
Said the man that claimed to have paid $3200 for a koala bear. That was hilarious.
Does he like children? Obviously not Asian children.
He finds them delicious.
Dude, I lost my shit when i got to the "dog's ass" part.
But seriously, learn the difference between "quiet" and "quite."
My dogs watch me fuck. I see it as a sort of torture for them as we took all six of their nuts off. Poor bastards. One time the retarded Yorkie licked my ass. Threw me off and we had to stop. He's small so he can't jump on to the bed like the other two so problem solved.
talk about physical delivery
There's nothing worse than having your dog stare at you while you're burping the worm to some good internet porn.
Or so I hear.
There is something worse...
If your dog is licking your ass at the same time.
That's definitely worse.
OK
thats it.
i'm off ZH and going to get fit.
And i mean it this time.
That's some Andy Kaufman awesome shite right there!
"He raped and killed my wife's cat "Miss. Kitty'" (Honestly, I wanted to put this in the good section because I've been trying to find a way to get that worthless cat out of our house for two years, thanks GumNut.)...
Fuck, I know this feeling almost pee-peed my pants laughing(wanting to be rid of the cat, not so much the Koala ass raped feeling, bitchez!)
And the probability you will getting physical delivery on that paper futures contract or ETF you now hold is..................???
Delivery on contract? Ask Corzine or his buddy Jamie.
Delivery on ETF? LOL
You have it or you don't. Congrats to those who do.
I bought silver eagles today. $5.10 canadian over spot.
It's not the premium on buying that hurts but the discount they impose on you when selling.
Selling is pretty stupid
It still begs the question as to why exchanging money for fiat should carry a reverse premium.
These kilo - coins are a fine semi - numismatic play, in my opinion. Usually they have mintages in only thousands. They are going to be crown jewels, once we start rolling..
Lately I've been trying to purchase semi - numismatics as well, an extra hedge. Like the Britannias, for example. They produce 100k a year, this is the first year they're .999 (formerly "Crown silver") and if you dig for the older ones, they're going for about 2x spot if over 6 years old. Had to buy a tube! I also like the old Engelhard Prospector rounds, but those premiums are through the roof these days.
Anytime I can find coins that could end up shooting up in numi value for near spot, I jump on them just in case. Canadian wildlife series, America the Beautiful 5 ouncers, etc. Worst case scenario is it ends up being worth spot. Best case scenario is they become sought after and you can trade them for more ounces overall. Win-win in my book.
sdbullion is selling silver buffalos for $1.99 over spot (today only because of the May 1st stack attack promo). I am not affiliated with them in any way. It just seems like a really good deal with the current "shortage". Delivery is about 4 weeks out though: "In order to extend this amazing offer to our customers, we have arranged a bulk purchase deal with the Golden State Mint.
Orders are estimated to ship the week of 5/27"
http://sdbullion.com/shop/silver/1oz-silver-buffalos/
Bough some Australian Philharmonic on April 26, Delivered on May 2, I consider myself lucky. > $5 over spot
I believe you mean Austrian?
Austrailian, Austrian, Armenian, Albanian, Argentinian, whats the dif? silver is silver. I like the Mexican ones with the tits.
What to buy? For simplicity lets assume silver is $20/oz.
You've got $1100 to spend. You can buy:
50 oz, 5 10 oz bars at $1 over spot or
44 oz, 44 ASEs at $5 over spot
Let's say silver goes to $100. You sell the 10 oz bars at spot (not a strech) and you'll net $5000. Is the premium on ASE's going to hold? Probably not as a % of cost, but let's say it doubles to $10/coin. That gives you a net of $4840. Not a big difference, but a lot of the premium on the ASE's is because of tightness. If the entire market becomes tight, the premium may diminish. Worth thinking about.
Ag and Au are available in retail, at low prices? What gives? How are we supposed to crash the bullion market that way?
This is no time for silly questions. Just buy!
Premiums are $5-$8 on Eagles and Maples, but generic rounds have come down quite a bit from a couple weeks ago. SDBullion's selling buffalo rounds for $1.99 overhttp://sdbullion.com/shop/silver/1oz-silver-buffalos/ and Provident is selling OPM rounds for $1.99 over
"Which brings up an interesting point: is the massive premium over spot for silver only due to the practical size of the most common, and thus cheapest, 1 oz denomination? Does silver only have a sizable physical premium when it is in a handy denomination - do heavier variants necessarily lose their premium over spot. And if so, is the relationship linear or convex - is there no premium at all if one was buying or selling all the physical outstanding (at least in a thought experiment)."
Actually, they already played with your experiment by selling more in volume than has been mined. Ever.
http://www.brotherjohnf.com/archives/155851
just like cash dollars, the curve is best at intermediary denominations because of convertibility concerns.
remember that the majority of people operate in the 1-10$ range in "advanced economies"(sorry, i haven't lived in europe or uk, so my experience is US only), fives and ones most common, 10s usurped by twenties for that very reason.. 20's are the staple for nights out(fun money, look im poor but still ballin' lol), if you are above this then you are middle class or better. most people scrutinize a 100 like a motherfucker, because they are an unconventionally large amount when your weekly pay is 3-400$. this is the majority.
Just got 90% pre 64 coins for about 18 per oz on eBay. Great seller. Gotta have the smaller amounts. Wife is all in for preps as she sees the writing on the wall. Don't listen to the noise. Just keep buying. He'll, I bought at 42 an oz. no problem. Just keep buying.
diversity, make sure that the end goal is conversion through the storm, hold whatever has the best chance in your mind of being worth something either now, in, or through, don't go all in on one idea, as hustlers abound in all markets, no reason to get taken, but just because they're there, no reason to not prepare.
the key is people, without a sound community everything you prepared for/with will be taken from you. i can't stress that enough. mouths to feed, maybe, or maybe ready hands that work the same ideal.
i've been reading your updates on your situation, i hope all goes well for you.
Thanks man. We are already forming a "community" by reaching out to some folks online. Some good Preppers out there. My parents are out there too so they have a lot of friends. I have denominations of every sort in silver up to 10 oz and up to an oz in gold. Food store is the only thing left. Once I'm out of CT We will be much happier. The house is the problem, but I'll rent it if I have to. Good post!
+1
renting out property is a crap(s)hoot, you either find someone who actually respects the deal, or more likely someone that expects you to wipe their ass for them, extremely difficult to manage without wasting money if you are far away, hope it's the previous, or you find a sale.
Oh I know. I don't wanna do it.
convertibility or ease of exchange seems to be
a real and significant consideration. the dynamics
of the transaction including the psychology and
historically accepted patterns and memes are
not insignificant when determining price,
not to mention temporal deliveries and other
feelings.= trust
"Do you have change for this kilo ?"
Lol, indeed sir!
http://mobile.apmex.com/product/27493/1-kilo-(3215-oz)-Bag-of-Silver-Grain-Silver-Shot-9992b-Fine
"IRA Aproved"
Who the fuck is Ira?
Try this:
http://www.jmbullion.com/10-oz-ntr-silver-bar/
10 oz bars for ~2.00 over spot. Free shipping for orders over 2500.00.
It's on a slight delay but no big deal.
I am not connected in any way other than as a buyer.
"Are you planning to pay for this with silver or are you just happy to see me?"
Bag silver, older pre 1964 US coins is the only practical way to go. It is 90% silver, immediately recognized as "real" by everyone and comes in very handy sub ounce sizes. It works either an an investment or "just in case". Its also very easy to compare price offers and delivery times with the various suppliers.
Bag silver, older pre 1964 US coins is the only practical way to go. It is 90% silver, immediately recognized as "real" by everyone and comes in very handy sub ounce sizes. It works either an an investment or "just in case". Its also very easy to compare price offers and delivery times with the various suppliers.
And it's mostly NON existent, and whats left is so damn worn you can almost see through it, around my neck of the woods(BIG woods).
Somehow I had an image in my mind of a Koala getting crushed by a massive silver coin and chuckled... then felt sad for the imaginary koala...
Ugly ass bitch on one side, ugly ass animal on the other. Where oh where is my Shania one ouncers ?
gonna have to pass on that, even though plus one seven nine.
Oooo...Shania.....yesssssssssss
I'd buy that for 4.99 over spot.
Unimpressed. Provident is selling in stock 1 kilo "year of the rabbit" for $1.59 over spot at the moment. Some supply is leaking back into the system where silver is concerned.
Some, but not a lot, and in my area, gold is practically non-existent.
2 stores in a large metropolitan area: < 15 oz of au and <500 oz of ag at both.
http://www.apmex.com/Product/23331/1_oz_Silver_American_Eagle_Random_Yea...
Silver 1oz AE
as low as $4.99 over spot
The reason that the premiums are so high on small amounts of silver is because it’s only the small time silver and gold bugs that have been standing in line; buying up a few ounces and coins at a time, which has temporarily depleted the supply of coins and small bullion. The manipulators who control the price of gold and silver deal in tonnage; not in ounces. They drive the price down by selling and placing puts in the commodities market, and then when the price is low, they place large orders directly with the gold and silver mines, with a minimum deposit, and the manipulators get a fixed, reduced price to be delivered at a later date. They take possession of the PMs after they drive the price of gold and silver back up. In some cases, the manipulators don’t even take possession of the PMs; they have them already sold for an incredible profit.
Small amounts of silver purchased by many is easily enough to overrun the physical silver market. One billion dollars buys 40 million ounces at current prices. Ten billion dollars buys 400 million ounces, or more than half of total yearly world mine output. If 10 million people bought 40 ounces a year, that's all it would take. 10 million people is little more than 1/10 of 1% of the world's population.
Silver For The People
Hey, a kilo of silver is a kilo of silver! I may not want all my coin horde to be fat koalas like this, but I appreciate the slim premium and it is still legal tender.
A kilo bar is not as big as you think. Picture a flat snickers bar.
Reasonable price over spot? Bullshit! You can get 100 oz for 5.37% over spot at Provident. 10oz for 7.06% at Liberty. And the owner of Liberty is a ZHer to boot
https://comparesilverprices.com/
This sort of disinformation would irritate me but for the fact that I have no use for such barbaric relics.
junk silver selling for $22 per face dollar in my state. My pal says that's 32% above wholesale... True?
Good rule of thumb I use, take spot silver, divide by 14, now you have the value of a silver dime's silver content. Wholesale is above spot so your friends close, you paid about 15% above wholesale, about 25% above "spot" east coast USA. I can get 19X wholesale TODAY.(p.s. silver DOLLAR coins command an additional 10% slightly heavier)
Doubles as a manhole cover?
That would depend on the diameter of your, um, man hole.
Coin shop here is at $7.95 per oz for Eagles. I bought some 1 oz Sunshine Mint rounds for $3.95 over spot. They get you coming and going!
Lots of other options at roughly the same price:
Certified Assets Management International
302-765-3352 is selling at less also Upstate Coins: http://www.upstatecoins.com/v/dealer.pdf
Do your research, there is a lot of material out there.
These are Perth Mint coins. They are currently available on their website for AUD$827.66
Double post
is the larger coin easier to debase?
May I suggest some equity Deep Out-Of-The-Money Put OptionsSM (DOOM for short, www.cboe.com) to go with your kilo of silver, sir?
Gold is going down more. Check the 20y chart - classic bulltrap.
What Tyler seems to be saying (politely, of course) is that what everyone disparagingly calls the "paper price" is actually LCS - minting/stamping - retail mark-up - the one ounce coin bottleneck. Note that one merely has to move from one ounce to one kilo to see the "phyzz vs paper" premium collapse from the $4-$7 noted by commenters here, to $1.79 (or as San Diego Gold says in this thread, $1.25 above Spot for 100 oz silver bars). Extrapolate that up to a 155 kilo ingot (the COMEX contract) and is it not possibly, even likely, that paper = physical (provided the physical is bulk)?
How does this work in other markets? Can anyone buy an ounce of copper for the paper price? An ear of corn for the CBOT bushel price? Can you buy lumber at Home Depot at prices equivalent to the CME LB contract? A side of bacon at your favorite diner for the equivalent CME pork belly front month contract price?
Retail is retail. Rather than call it "paper vs physical", wouldn't it be more accurate to call it wholesale vs retail, or maybe 5000 oz ingots vs pretty one ounce coins?
(There's probably some enterprising Chinese guy who right now is buying bulk silver, melting it down, and stamping out new one ounce coins with Ron Paul's image on the front and box of .338 Lapua Magnums on the back, ready to arb "paper vs. phyzz".)
Elsewhere, how do people here think the PM prices rose from 2000 to 2011? From small lot coin purchases or large scale buying? Just because small lot buyers are wedded to the trade, is it fair to assume large scale buyers---the ones who drove gold from $255 to $1900---are equally wedded to the trade? Is it not at least possible that the large buyers, who view PMs not as a way of life but as just another asset, might one day (now, and since 2011) decide to sell, just as many in the crowded trade formerly known as on-the-way-to-$1000 APPL sold?
It took a heck of a lot of buying to drive PM prices up. As prices rose, new mines (especially developed world mines that operate with an EPA and OSHA looking over their shoulders) became viable and brought more supply to market. For PM prices to continue rising, all of that selling (from "asset traders") plus all the new supply has to be absorbed. It is possible it could happen, but not a guarantee.
In the end markets are always about basic supply demand. That undeniable reality seems to have been forgotten, as people have tried to rationalize and to link debt build-up and fiat printing to the PM price. US debt rose from $1 trillion in 1980 to almost $6 trillion in 2000, yet gold fell from $800 plus to $255 and silver from $48 to $3. Similarly, Central Bank fiat printing has accelerated dramatically since spring of 2011, yet gold is down from $1900 and silver has fallen by more than half. Willem de Kooning paintings, 1963 Ferrari 250 GTOs, and even AAPL have done a heck of a lot better. So has arable land.
PMs might well go to the moon, but it does no one any good (except LCSs) for buyers to get all glassy-eyed like a Sunday (or Friday) congregation as the preacher/imam/monk tosses out pretty words and paints pictures of heaven/nirvana/72 virgins, and forget the basics of suply and demand.
I think that there is a sense that the universe of interested buyers is getting larger. You have to count the Asian/South Asian middle class markets as expanding, as well as the perturbed OECD 401K refugees from paper.
There is a lot more coming.....just wait until your local church and county boards put a few percent into PMs as a normal portfolio component. Hey, there might be gold and silver all over the damn place in the end. A bit in every desk drawer. Kinda like the West in 1880.
That there, son, IS your supply and demand.
Preacher OUT.
Good post because I agree with all that you say.
There is one practical use for the Oz lilo slAg coin, and that is "Kook Spinning". The old kilo coins were called Kooks as they had a Kookaburra bird on them. In the early 2000's a number of us from the old Kitco site used to gather in far northwestern Montana at the end of summer for a get together. The denizens were from as far as eastern Virginia, southern California, Maine, and many canucks fom the Maritimes to Vancouver. After shooting and gambling we had a competion for real prizes to find out how long a spun Kook would remain spinning on a table. Juvenile good fun. Besides a Kook at the time was less than 150 dollars.
More City of London Chindit nonsense:
"As prices rose, new mines (especially developed world mines that operate with an EPA and OSHA looking over their shoulders) became viable and brought more supply to market"
Patently absurd. Silver has spent a total of 5 months over 34 dollars in the last twenty years. The turn around time for new mines is years to a decade.
Silver For The People
Chindit bleated:
Like the good and perpetually dishonest anti-PM troll, he finally, inevitiably, simply could NOT resist making the cherry-picked and yes, I will say it ---- DISINGENUOUS --- strawman argument of using the extremely short-lived PM price spikes of early 1980 as a baseline from which to (illogically) dismiss the validity and value of holding gold and silver during times of monetary and economic upheaval, and most especially during a period of rampant and escalating governmental overspending, and indebtedness, and monetization of that debt.
One could just as easily (much more easily, in fact) use the equities price peaks of early 2001 and late 2007, followed by the dips of 2003 and 2009, to argue that stocks are not only a terrible but a monstrously and repeatedly losing investment. One could do that, but it would be only a half-truth at best, and the inherent dishonesty of the argument would prevent anyone with a reasonable sense of moral and intellectual integrity from doing so.
Too bad Chindit does not share those same character traits.
Silver50.com at $1.45 over for 500+ rounds, free shipping. Cheaper than Tulving.com at the moment.
Silver as a byproduct
This argument has already been thoroughly debunked. The suppression of silver prices is the reason so many mines are no longer primary silver mines. If the price of silver were tenfold what it is right now they'd all be primary silver mines. But that still doesn't mean the secondary product is "free". What a silly argument. See:
The Myth of the ‘Primary Silver Mine’Part of the reason why the general public has been inadequately informed (or arguably misinformed) by experts within this sector is because of the failure to engage in the most preliminary step of all analysis: definition of terms. When we define a particular mine as a “primary gold producer” or “primary silver producer” (or “primary lead producer”), we do so on the basis of the revenues produced from each metal, and not the quantity of metal produced.
The reason for doing so is obvious: because each of these metals have vastly divergent prices, classifying mines based upon the ounces/pounds/tons produced of the particular metals contained in various ores would produce grossly misleading labels. Any/every mine which produced (for example) both precious metals and copper would inevitably be labeled as a “copper mine” since even if 90% of revenues came from gold and/or silver, most of the tonnage would certainly come from the copper production – given that copper is so much more plentiful and so much cheaper than gold or silver.
Thus it is obviously necessary to classify mines according to revenues rather than tonnages. However, the fact that analysts in this sector never take the time to make their own reasoning explicit in this regard has caused them to misinterpret this data.
Without exception, the current scenario where most silver is produced as a “byproduct” is treated as a “normal state of affairs” by these analysts, when (in fact) it must be nothing but a temporary aberration. Specifically, the only reason why there are so few “primary silver mines” in the world today is 100% due to the fact that silver is grossly under-priced versus any and every other metal on the planet.
A look at a specific example will help to flesh-out the parameters here further. For those not especially familiar with mining, the first point to note is that in terms of geology, silver is most commonly found in ore-bodies which also host lead and zinc. Whether such mines are classified as “silver mines” or as “lead/zinc mines” is (as stated earlier) totally dependent upon the revenues produced by each metal. Thus, if silver prices are low, while lead/zinc prices are high, these mines will be mostly labeled as “lead/zinc mines”. However, if silver is priced fairly versus lead and zinc, many of those mines will instantly transform into “silver mines”; while if silver prices were ever high versus the prices for lead and zinc, then most of what are currently called “lead/zinc” mines (around the world) would become silver mines.
Silver For The People
In past two weeks, Chinese bought 300 ton of retails Gold.
Well, we got 300 tons of Dollar back, don't we?
I went down to the local grocery store to get a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread. They told me they were out of both, so I checked every other store in town, but they were out too. Finally I found a line of people who were queued up to buy what was left at the last place in town. I said to the guy in front of me "this is ridiculous, you can't find any bread or milk anywhere in this town". He replied, "not true, that bakery across the street has a 50 pound loaf for sale and there's a tanker of milk for sale across town". Shortage solved.
Silver For The People
$2.50 - $3.00 In Seattle; though the story is quite busy most of the time... West Seattle Coin..