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Senate Passes Online Sales Tax Bill
As previewed previously, one half of the hurdle to enforce a universal online US sales tax has now been crossed, with the Senate voting moments ago to pass a Wal-Mart backed bill 69-27 allowing states to collect taxes on out of state Internet and catalog sales. The bill would end the era of tax-free Internet shopping. During the debate, senators offered examples of consumers who examine products in stores and then shop online to avoid paying sales tax. The pretext? Why fairness of course. “This bill is about fairness,” said Senator Mike Enzi, a Wyoming Republican and co-sponsor of the measure. “It’s about leveling the playing field between the brick-and-mortar and online companies.”
However, while the bill's success in the Senate was given, its passage in the House appears far more problematic. As Bloomberg reports, "the bill goes to the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, which probably won’t act quickly or pass a measure in the same form as the Senate. Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican and chairman of the Judiciary Committee, has said that while he wants to address the issue, he is concerned it would create complexity for businesses and make them vulnerable to audits by multiple states."
In other words, the House's definition of fair appears slightly off from that of the Senate.
It also differs from that of online mega retailer Amazon, which apparently has decided that if it can't fight them, to at least join them, and make the life of all other online retailers who never lost as much money as it did, or had nearly as horrible operating margins as AMZN, let alone a #Ref! P/E multiple, living hell and if possible crush and bankrupt them by any ways possible just so AMZN could finally lever up its business model of becoming the biggest at any and every price.
The measure, supported by the Obama administration, attracted a coalition of backers including Best Buy Co. (BBY), Amazon.com Inc. (AMZN) and shopping mall owners. Amazon, the largest Internet-based retailer, is expanding into more states to speed delivery, which means it will pay taxes anyway.
And why not: AMZN benefited from a no sales tax policy for decades. Now that it believes it is large enough and has enough scale (if no actual profit) it may as well join the dark side.
Luckily, there are those who still believe that handing over even more private sector cash to the government to burn at will is not the best option.
Opponents maintained that the bill would unfairly burden small businesses with paperwork and audits, create a tax advantage for foreign sellers and potentially allow state-level transaction taxes. Detractors included anti-tax groups, direct marketers and senators from states without sales taxes.
“I fear that what we’re going to do is crush a lot of those start-ups, a lot of those small businesses,” said Senator Ron Wyden, a Democrat from Oregon, which doesn’t have a sales tax.
Of course you are: that is what Amazon, Best Buy, and Wal Mart are hoping for. And since by passing said bill it merey makes government even bigger, one can bet their bottom untaxed dollar, that it is only a matter of time before the House also passes a version of the bill.
Remember: it's only fair.
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Interesting added info that I didn't know about Amazon. One thing I did notice was totally bogus book reviews by wink-wink-nod-nod Amazon-sponsored (?or Amazon originated?) reviewers like "Midwest Book Review Club". The name was something like that, can't recall exactly. But every single one of their reviews gave the book a 5-star review. And often this was the first review shown for new books, which started their rating at the highest possible, and kept it close for some time.
So Amazon is definitely does not have a clean reputation. I complained about those fake reviews, but Amazon would do nothing, and acknowledge nothing. Which means, they were co-conspirators and are culpable for their actions.
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I wish you could move to a saner and safer place on this planet. I'm sure I'd enjoy getting to know you, and a few others from the ZH crowd. Though I'm insanely busy on the project I collaborate on, now and then I think about trying to find out whether there are enough others out there somewhere who would like to establish a collaborative place in a saner, safer country.
To some degree, this is available via the DougCasey community in Argentina, or the SimonBlack community in Chile. However, both are extremely expensive to join... on the order of $250K to $300K for an acre of dirt in the community, plus $550 per month homeowner fees in the case of the Casey community (but not the SimonBlack community, supposedly).
The problem is, these guys only serve "richest folks", not the "most sincere" or "most talented" or "most willing and able". The vast majority of money paid for lots in those communities goes straight into the pockets of Casey and his partners, and Black and his partners. They have an absolute right to do what they're doing, but a serious collaboration would have vastly, vastly, vastly greater potential to become something spectacular, for many reasons. Just think, for starters, how they've structured these places. They took a huge chunk of land that was "zoned" (in USSA speak) as rural and/or farming (very low property tax rates), and subdivided them into tiny little pieces that the governments will now tax at vastly higher values. How stupid is that? How costly is that? How inefficient is that? And in the case of the Black community, you have to buy a fictitious entity to own your lot, so you step even deeper into the world of government defined and government approved and government controlled systems.
I know what it takes to create a collaborative community, because my place, which serves myself only, is just about as completely self-sufficient as any place could be. The only difference between my digs (which I'm not about to share, for security reasons) and a collaborative community is... the number of dwellings, solar-panels, battery-banks, etc. Been there, done that. And in fact, I lived alone for several years at a remote self-sufficient scientific research station years before, where I first learned about self-sufficient systems. I had to keep them working, or survive without electricity, water, etc. I did live perfectly fine without communications.
But I wonder whether there are enough people who would take actions to set themselves up elsewhere in this world, in places saner and safer and vastly more self-sufficient. I certainly don't want to push for such a collaboratiion, because I'm already set. The only advantage for me would be additional security (a second place to hide out and live), and potentially collaboration with folks that would benefit both me and them in other ways.
The only kind of place I'd consider would be rural. I much prefer the extreme-boonies, but that's what I already have, so we don't need to be quite as extreme for a collaboration. But it would have to be very rural, otherwise it won't work effectively.
Do you think such a collaboration is possible? Something inside me says "no", that humans simply don't know how to collaborate, that only "communities" (not "collaborations") run primarily as businesses by one guru, or one small set of partners, would work.
What do you think? Any ideas?
Someone on ZH had posted that Amazon sells conterfit products made in China and other garbage. He said that his company's products had been counterfitted!
I don't have a background in social anthropology, so any ideas on startup communities are going to be amateur at best. My background is mainly in academia - physics followed by a brief stint at a merchant bank (don't ask), then back to school for information systems and management and now a specialist in neural networks. My plan is to buy a plot in Canada where my dad lives and start a small self sufficient place of my own. I am veering towards fancy which requires me to work more, and since there is plenty of it, it is just a detailed plan on the drawing board for now - perhaps indefinitely because I have a dependent, my mother who needs medical care.
But to answer your question, a community without structure - rules, jobs, rewards, and hierachy - must be a very difficult proposition to sustain. Something that could be solved initially by setting admission standards in compatibility and qualification, similar to picking candidates for an expedition. Once through the startup phase, even if members live in separate plots of their own, there will always be the problems of growth and neighbourhood friction that small towns may experience. We all know how just one bad apple can ruin the whole basket.
I think you are very wise to be wary and your instinct is probably right about the human inability to form such collaborative communities. Unless each individual has a specific role to play, the willing personality, and the compatibility with others in the group, my feelings tell me that it would not work with strangers. That is not to say it would not work with friends you already have, people you have known for years with strengths and weaknesses you can use and allow for, in your plans to sustain your project. I certainly wouldn't mind living with a bunch of my friends. Maybe that's the key?
A second place to hide out and live sounds like a fine idea. In that endeavour, you could have a network of people who have individual holdings, geographically located far away from eachother, but willing to accomodate a "guest", as long as that willingness is reciprocated. You can count me in as a second place to hide out and live, if I ever get my steading started. But until then, if I were you, I would only form a collaboration with friends I have known for many years. Time, I find is the best measure of a true relationship.
Yeah, probably correct. I never accumulated enough friends to form a collaboration of friends, so that certainly doesn't work. Part of being a loner and hermit for so long.
My probably impractical fantasy on this matter was the collaborators be chosen on the basis of abilities, knowledge, experience and possibly resources.
In my imagination, the only necessary collaboration would be paying part of the cost of land, plus any property-taxes that may (or hopefully do not) exist where the place is established. I most certainly would not want to count on anyone executing on other obligations.
Here are some of my thoughts. Whether any of this is practical is the current conversation.
#1: We would have a very simple, fundamental agreement from the outset that cannot change without unanimous agreement. To anyone who doesn't like any term of the agreement, they can suck it up and live with them, convince every collaborator to change the terms, or not participate.
#2: The territory has two kinds of areas, which we'll call "public" and "private". The "public" area is shared by everyone, and is limited to more-or-less universally unoffensive behavior (no smoking, etc). In the "private" areas controlled by each individual, just about "anything goes" that doesn't leak outside their private area. So loud noise (music) would not be limited, but would need to be constrained to boundaries (unless nobody cares). This lets everyone be completely individualistic in their domain, while leaving shared areas unoffensive but possibly a bit blander than desired for some.
#3: Everyone pays an equal percentage of any unavoidable expence (property tax), but no "homeowner fees".
#4: We might decide to have a few expensive luxuries (swimming pool, billiard/meeting room, etc) in the shared area, if the founders (first group of folks) can agree to terms and costs. In my vision this might be better done privately, where individuals create a swimming pool (or other goodie) and charge for admission or membership. This way everyone pays only for the goodies they want.
#5: Every penny invested goes to purchase or improve the property (land and self-sufficiency infrastructure). The original founders may get a slightly better deal than those who come later (such as more private acres per dollar invested), but founders do not make a single penny of revenue or profit, not for creating the community, and not for running the community.
#6: I hope someone decides to grow [organic] food and raise [organic] chickens [and beef]. Perhaps everyone will agree to let them grow plants and raise animals on a specific portion of the public areas in exchange for some quantity of food or gold (essentially the community would be leasing some of the public land for this purpose).
#7: No above-ground utilities (electric lines, telephone lines).
#8: This is a partnership (collaboration), not a commune. The main benefit to participants is a place to live... all the time, some of the time, a tiny bit of time, or just to have available for when the SHTF.
#9: Any idea that might lead to "politics" is avoided. Let individuals decide for themselves.
Having said all the above, I have experienced enough insanity from people I thought were reasonable and "good folks" that I remain uncertain whether such a scheme can work.
My attempt to cope with this sad fact is making the collaboration extraordinarily simple and limited, as well as requiring all changes be unanimous and reversible. In other words, if something gets changed, it can be changed back to the original terms if the change doesn't work out to the satisfaction of everyone. This will help prevent jerks from pretending to be great folks short term, then showing their true colors once rules are changed in their favor.
The following is what this community offers to someone who might want to collaborate. They get to buy a sane, safe, secure, self-sufficient place in a fairly benign place on planet earth, only pay the actual cost of the land and infrastructure they enjoy, and let others who already know how perform the exploration, scouting, paperwork and installation of self-sufficient infrastructure.
In the end the "community" could be almost irrelevant. In fact, if we don't even have any "public area", and the entirety of the land is assigned to individual collaborators, the whole deal could be as simple as a partnership to buy or occupy a significant size piece of land. It is even possible to not implement the self-sufficiency infrastructure as a shared resource, though that defeats what I imagine is a large part of the point of such an endeavor for most participants.
Maybe you're right. Maybe humans just aren't up to such a collaboration, even the very simple forms I mention above. After all, humans are quite insane.
Agreed. People are insane, greedy, cruel, selfish, and violent. They are also generous, kind, beautiful, logical, and brave. To paraphrase Forrest Gump, people are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get". :)
Simon Black and others who are starting communities probably have the right idea in their own way. You could take out all the hard work and cherry pick their ideas - start a company into which investors can put money/resources with stringent rules you mentioned incorporated into it. When you attract the right type of people, sane ones with money, then you have a start.
I will think more about it. In the meantime, thanks for sharing your great dreams. Please feel free to drop into any thread to tell me more when the mood strikes you.
threads like this one only affect those who produce and that number is getting smaller as the success of socialism makes more dole suckers grow every day..death to productive people death to freedom. it is good to be a modern day ruler, they all have gained more power than a feudal prince.
@ YHC-FTSE:
Croesus & Pals have actually thought about starting our own commune in recent times. We all tend to think a lot alike, but have different talents and abilities. It wouldn't be like a "free love hippie" type of place, and we tend to look at it like "A-Team meets the Beverly Hillbillies". The idea is simple:
A parcel of land, with small, 2-3 room cottages built on it. There are certain aspects to this that are tremendously advantageous, such as the idea that certain resources are pooled, and the costs are spread around, allowing everyone to have "off-grid" self-reliance, at a fraction of the cost.
Ex: Rather than pay to have 5 wells dug, we pay for one shared well, instead. Same with a top-end commercial security system. "Shared resources means shared costs".
Our like-mindedness is also a great advantage from a security standpoint. Simon Black and Doug Casey are involved with similar planned communities, with similar ideas behind them; Where I disagree with them, is doing it in countries where you cannot legally own firearms.
Forget the conspiracy crap. "The ability to put meat on the table shall not be infringed".
Another great idea. The transition between idea to implementation is always a tricky business, funding the major part. Have you considered crowd/cloud funding like www.kickstarter.com ?
Like Honest, I enjoy the solitude of my own company. I've only ever considered self sufficiency living as a personal project with room for friends and family. I think it will take more skill sets than I have to sustain a community of strangers. And no disrespect to anyone, but to me, online interaction does not count as friendship no matter how much I like the stuff they post. Nothing beats face to face time over a beer to gauge a person.
Variations on the theme of a self sufficient gated community sounds like a wise hedge against the possible impending troubles ahead.
Yes. Maybe the only think about the DC and SB scenarios that needs to be changed is directing so much money into the hands of the founders. Think about the DC community for example. About 400 lots, about $300K each. That's $120-million-dollars. It is a nice community alright, but most of this money isn't being spent to make the community better. And I can't believe the majority of the $2,400,000 per year homeowner fees are being spent to make the property better either.
So yeah, the major problem with those communities is, they take the massive financial advantage of such a collaboration, and make the efficiency mostly benefit just a few people. If that one factor is changed, the place could be fantastic.
The problem is, DC and SB are well known, have lots of people spreading the word about their communities, and hyping them to the hilt. So what doesn't seem to work in this scenario is attracting collaborators. Oh well.
Publicity can easily be fixed, and your project has distinct administrative fee advantages over the others. I never knock differentiation by price for competitive advantage. As mentioned to Croesus, please have a look at how professional projects can be funded at places like www.kickstarter.com
I too am insanely busy these days (but still posting on ZH!), but I am only too happy to help in my own small way, and learn at the same time.
My project? I don't have a project! :-)
Now that I think about it seriously, what does a regular internet business do about this?
eBay and Etsy dead, dead, dead??
Ship all goods overseas, to a re-shipment point, then ship back into the states?
Does NAFTA mean I can drop a warehouse in Mexico just over the border, and ship from Mexico through El Paso into the states? Does this now give me Mexican Tax esposure?
Just move entire companys overseas?
Maybe this is a nothing-burger, not even attempted to be enforced, like how you are currently *supposed* to report interstate sales and pay taxes in it?
I never really thought about it becuase I never thought the bill would make it through the house, now I am not so sure?
These gov guys really have no clue on the disaster this is going to cause!
I have an internet business and I will not collect this tax just on principle alone. I am going to have friends and clients calling me about this soon for advise and I am at a loss.
Disaster
They do have a clue. It is an intentional destruction of what is left of the free market. Communists / marist/ progressives are hell bent on having everyone make $1.50 per hour across the globe all in the name of fairness.
Their 60's hippie utopia is their end goal.
<< It is an intentional destruction of what is left of the free market. >>
Precisely.
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
Kurt Vonnegut
ok, dont collect. sooner or later you will receive an irs or state audit.
what will you do then, refuse to pay the fine?
not trying to be a dick, i just dont like it when people dont think things through.
im not unhappy with the decision, just finish out the plan.
what will you do when confronted by .gov officials?
gave you a green, btw.
I reached a point where I have to step away from the keyboard and actually DO SOMETHING, and the first thing I am doing is going Gault.
My plan for when they catch-up to me is to fight ir, demand paper work, delay, get a real hearing, then delay some more, close business, re-open new one, and use all of the legal and accounting tricks and tips I learned over 20 years to keep them at arms length until the entire system collapses.
I will make it cost them 1,000,000 to jail me for a few thousand.
And if they get me I hope to get a cell next to Ann Barnhardt who is also going Gault FOR REAL
Wow, what a boon to the black market.
Hurry put the eagles away it's the cops!
it is a BADLY written bill. Here is Vera De Rugy's take on it.
http://mercatus.org/video/veronique-de-rugy-discusses-internet-taxing-and-fairness-blaze
Good luck enforcing it. Individual taxpayers aren't going to report online purchases, and small businesses sure as hell don't have to money to collect sales taxes for every jurisdiction they sell product in. Are businesses still going to be required to only collect taxes for states that they have a physical presence in? Or will they have to collect for every sale?
I haven't even read the bill, but this is the government, so I'm guessing it's nation wide... States already collect their respective taxes when their residents shop online. (I.E. California residents please add x.xx sales tax)
i dunno, anyone that has a warehouse in illinois already takes it off the top. a barebones tower will cost me $30-50 more by having it shipped to illinois instead of indiana. now, you loose that in extra shipping or fuel costs if you try to beat it, unless you happen to have a preestablished route of some sort or live within 15 minutes of the border. thats been in effect for a few years now.
Fucking skunks! Meh, In 'tax free' (yeah right) NH, so I guess I'll just make my way down to the store...
Just one more consolidation cog in the corporate machine. See ya later Mom and Pop.........
Demoncrats fear uninsured won't sign up for Obamacare....
http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/uninsured-obama-health-care/2013/05/05...
BYE BYE democrat controlled Senate....
Everything's backfiring on fuckhead Obama....
Sacred Equality! Extortion and racketeering for all! Amen.
We don't have bricks and mortar in Wyoming, except Walmart...which in many places a monopoly . It's a sales tax increase for Wyoming, voted on by the Feds. Perfect.
"It's a sales tax increase for Wyoming..."
Mike Enzi ( R-WY ) was one of the co-sponsors of the bill.
Yup.
Amazon charges tax in CA for a while now. I can still find stuff cheaper on Amazon and I don't have to drive 4 miles to Home Depot or somewhere. Considering my Camaro gets 11 mpg I save the gas tax. With prime ($79/yr) I get free 2 day shipping which has actually been next day lately and I get streaming as good as Netflix to boot. For me their business model has worked just fine since 1998. I even have an Amazon Chase VISA which earns 3% for Amazon purchases and gas. Since everyone has a website I do all the price comparisons online. Musicians Friend online category killer will usually pay your sales tax with an order over $99 and throw in free shipping on most everything. It seems that the online warehouses will find ways to accommodate this. Shit I buy pretty much everything online. StockWiseAuto.com another category killer.
You're full of shit but you nearly convinced me to sell my Camaro.
Muscians Friend? F them. I have bought a few things from them but most music stuff I would buy on eBay or Craigslist.
Also F TV and F Hollywood who support these Congress Criminals and O MUslim.
I think the most fairest thing to do would be to get all the small online retailers off Amazon's back, then maybe they can raise their prices.
It won't be a Boston Tea Party this time, it will be an Internet "screw .gov" revolution.
The only thing politicians are good for is finding any reason to levy a "tax". We are taxed on virtually everything. I don't you about the rest of you, but working for half a year for .gov doesn't make sense when I see what .gov does for me.
Yep, a lawless government will be ignored and will fail.
Almost there......
There is so much pent up hostility for this administration or Government in general....
Epic times ahead...
.gov just figured out a way to tax BTC... Boom!
Oh yeah? HOW exactly?
I'm clearly speculating with this, but here goes: I don't think the means of exchange will matter on an Internet sale, because of the Internet tax. Bombs away, junkers!
Maybe if a Bitcoin transaction takes place under the new proposal, and a certain equivalent amount isn't charged for sales tax, the transaction will be considered tax evasion. That's felony stuff. This will end Bitcoin, at least for online transactions.
In the middle ages serfs owed their feudal lords at least 3 days of labor a week to as much as 6 days a week in some periods in Poland and maybe Russia, but they had many more holidays in the middle ages then we have now and so more time off. I estimate our condition of servitude at this time in the US to be more onerous then most of theirs. Same system, different name - we're been chattel again for 100 years. I personally find sales tax less offensive than income tax as it doesn't include the same presumption of ownership. A free person owns their labor.
Don't all tax bills have to originate in the House?
All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.
Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.
Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case of a bill.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei
Its DOA in the House, unless Boehner has another crying fit ;-)
Appears to me that S743 was not an amendment to a House Bill, not even one that was gutted and rewritten as an amendment. Seems to me that it would be unconstitutional then. As if that mattered anymore.
Its not a bill for raising revenue for the Federal Government. It is a bill that regulates commerce between the states. Doesn't matter where it starts.
One would think if the GOP actually wanted to make inroads with the Millennials they would kill this thing publicly and violently. Instead they are too busy trying to increase the number of democrats by 10-15 million. Go figure
.
Good point. That's what I missed
So it will pass then, given that taxes are the opium of politics and all politics are local, especially when those taxes (at least notionally), will be promised to such locales and their representatives.
Any assertion to the contrary could rival Obama claiming he won't sign the NDAA...we shall see...
Translation: If it involves money, the government can do whatever it wants to, whenever it chooses, to whoever it decides to FUCK OVER.
Same basic idea as the supreme court (supreme oligarchy) saying that because Fuckstaincare (Obamacare) is a tax, it's OK. Call anything a tax, and pound away, says the ludicrous court. Secession is and for the foreseeable future will be the only logical step. It isn't perfect, but unless someone (Texas) steps up and tells the feds to FUCK OFF ALREADY we're going to stop circling the drain and go straight to the septic tank.
If the internet seller doesn't have a physical presence in the buyers state, there is no compelling federal interest. (Quill vs North Dakota).
Its patently unfair that a Wisconsin farmer, selling cheese over the internet, should be compelled to collect taxes for the state of Georgia (becoming an employee of Georgia as tax collector) and himself buy software that keeps up with 10,000 local & state tax laws that change overnight.
The Kraft company would be a different matter...they have that physical presence in every state.
So, we believe all these representatives our States sent up there to the Logic Free Zone will kill a bill to generate revenue for their individual States?
Yes, things have indeed changed.
Makes no difference to people living in salestax-free states.
It also makes no difference when you order online from foreign companies.
umm, dont forget, shipping industry is going down. lots of containers sitting empty. that is going to implode right along with everything else. when there is no shipping, no purchases, and nothing but mayhem, then they take over and we all get world wide digital currency forever.
I read the Chinese can ship a product for a quarter of the price to anywhere in the USA WITH signature confirmation (b/c their postal fees are much much cheaper) while some poor small businessman in the USA will pay lots more to ship here to USA ..and that does not include the fact the item/product is already "Hecho in China" in the first place and produced for 80% less.
When people like El Erian and Buffet describe any recovery as, "long and painful and slow" they ain't kidding.
It's not going to level the playing field to me. I don't generally think "hmm, i'll go online and buy it because I don't pay sales tax". I think "i'm lazy, I don't want to deal with people, i'll just order it".
So I think the 'reason' about leveling the playing field is nonsense. It's just about revenue. Everybody will still use online shopping. That's not going anywhere, no matter what taxes are put on it. Sad.
Was there any doubt this was coming ASAP?
The more they tighten their grip the more shit slips through their fingers. Brick and mortar stores already have tax free weeks. Some that are small and flexible say $20 cash out the door but you know damn well they aren't reporting the transaction to big brother. People will find a way to buy stuff without paying tax. Craigslist comes to mind. Hey buddy, you bring the goods and I'll meet you under a bridge somewhere to do the deal. Like someone above said, this is just one more step toward the black market.
So what happens if the internet goods are still cheaper even after the introduction of the sales tax?
Tax MOAR! Save the store!
or
Tax Moar, save this whore!
Then they Vat Tax it at the Manufacturer? That's what this leads to. A Euro style 20% National Sales tax.That way they protect the tax collector in exchange for one stop tax collection.
Just the Camels nose here, you know.
Money printing is Up, Stocks are Up, Taxes are Up, Capital Controls are Up, Drones are way Up, Syria's and Iran's time is Up... what could possibly go wrong?
Governments suck.
Sales tax revenue is tiny, small business will get it in the neck while the big ones wouldn't care. My heart goes out to the small sincere businesses trying to make it. They'll have to up prices to cover taxed margins, while large stores can stay competitive.
Oh leaders, I live for the day of the guillotines. You hollow men, you disgusting sick looking f*ckers.
Reign of Terra, bitchez.
On small business, during the Hillarycare debate;
"When told the plan could bankrupt small businesses, Mrs. Clinton said, 'I can't be responsible for every under-capitalized small business in America'!"
Life is not Fair. Fuck Fairness !
This is such a misuse of the word fairness. Washington mangles and obfsucates meaning with its terms. fairness = new form of theft, Q/E = currency debasement or counterfitting, etc.
We should burn all dictionaries. Since the definitions of words can be twisted and now outright changed the meaning. The Dictionary is now worthless.
Syme: Beautiful thing, the destruction of words.
Amazon Sounds like Joe Kennedy. Make your millions/billions and then tax your competition when you have a 15 year tax free head start.
To the supreme court with it! Article 1, Section 9 - No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.
SCOTUS?
Got that Justice "Taxer" Roberts?
The "O" Man will up ya100 on this one!
Y'all be workin' at bof' Pfizer AND Amazon!
Ya'll can quit your day job a lookin' 't that Ginsburger thang!
,,,
s/
Sorry. I'll go put on the cone!
It's the internet itself they hate. The net is the author of all their trouble nowadays. Truth flying around, free speaking people discussing things that are 'better left to us', people buying things not even available in their local stores, cop videos showing the people just how free they ain't, by God it's Un-American!
How do we kill this? Same as always, tax it to death or seize it at gunpoint. Taxing is easier.
FUCK, how do i do more than one green?
A bit melodramatic...
sales tax won't give "the internet" more than a recoverable bump on the retail side, and the impact on its truth-disseminating qualities is nil.
Here is something that I have not seen others post here and this is an investing/markets site.
I think another big group pushing this is REITs. A lot of these retail REITs are really worried because malls were killed off then they switched to power strips like Best Buy Old Navy, Bed Bath, etc. Now those are under threat. there is WAY too much retail real estate space nationwide. I recall a story where the future of comml RE was warehouses.
The killer was really Hope and Change but they think this tax may save all that retail real estate that is an eyesore nationwide.
Isn't a warehouse still able to charge 20 cheaper than a brick and mortar that has to pay rent and property taxes and numerous locations.
So now my $100 item will cost $107 but still is $123 at the store. Seems like the only winner is the government... Doesn't seem Fair to me.
GOD DAMMIT, how do i give more than one green!!!!!
Post a reply, +1000! Or similar...
It seems fair to collect taxes equally...
where we continue spiraling down the drain is all the energy spent in the wrong direction...
in this case bickering over the "fairness" of tax dollars collected,
those tax dollars collected in desperation to uphold the personal interests and illusions of the lawmakers who collect it, and then Piss It Away.
Do you see how we, collectively, are not helping ourselves?
Do you see the distraction from the real issue, in full play, even here?
I junked you cuz I can...
(Well, your first sentence threw me off... And I couldn't make ANY sense of the remainder of your post.)
GDP will take a huge hit when this kicks in. Small online businesses will go bankrupt and consumer spendiing will slow to a crawl.
Brace yoru self for a huge slowdown.
ok, scuse prease.
i cant find a setting lower than Crawl. its already at the lowest stetting. ive adjusted the tint, contrast and hue. it dosent get any slower.
Think negative - and we'll probably have negative rates soon as well.
If Al Gore hadn't invented the internet we wouldn't have this problem now would we.
It's Gore's fault
Mail order catalogues?
"Fairness" = a giant special interest just wrote a campaign check. Oh the poor retail stores that have been gouging the shit out of people forever. boo fucking hoo. More command and control bullshit.
Any brick and mortars that are still left after 20 years of the internet can compete. If they are failing it's because incomes are falling and the economy sucks donkeys. So the obvious solution (isn't it always?) is to tax small businesses.
How about this:
These fucks that hang there hats in the senate, congress can go and fuck themselves. They can pass any law that they want, but ill be goddamned if ill follow it.
These douches vote themselves a frigging PAYRAISE??!!
Insider information that is illegal for the average joe to use, but once again they exempt themselves from their illegal activities.
They raise taxes on just about EVERYTHING, and now they want MOAR??
Do they pay taxes? With your money they do. But never their own.
These fucking congressmen and senators need to put their hats in their hands and BEG for forgiveness, because the way that I see it, these people are fucking TRAITERS!
TRAITORS
Fixed it for ya.
Don't worry, Goldman already has a workaround developed for it's prefered clients. Because, it's what they do.
Al Gore's father of the internet - let him pay the tax on it!
God DAMN these fuckers! There are 3000 of them running 320 million of us and it MUST stop. I dare anyone - ANYONE to get in my face and tell me that this fucking government needs ONE MORE DIME of tax revenue. Ron Paul was right to challenge this worthless bunch to cut 1% from every single government program and they buried him so fast he didn't know what hit him.
I say it again: THIS HAS TO STOP.
and look what happened to him. that should have been a key indicator when the sole voice of reason is stomped out.
However, while the bill's success in the Senate was given, its passage in the House appears far more problematic. As Bloomberg reports, "the bill goes to the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, which probably won’t act quickly or pass a measure in the same form as the Senate. Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican and chairman of the Judiciary Committee, has said that while he wants to address the issue, he is concerned it would create complexity for businesses and make them vulnerable to audits by multiple states."
I had a meeting with Bob Goodlatte and was very impressed with his take on this issue. He thinks it's a clusterfuck of the first order. He was very persuasive in his arguments as to why the scheme will fail. He brought up scenarios I hadn't even imagined. I went to see him over the tax issue and he opened my eyes to how some of the opponents to this are looking at it at a much deeper level. Some of that is good, some of that is not.
So that means one of two things...either the bill would pass and create a massive nightmare, or an even more comprehensive Federal oversight of internet commerce will have to be proposed to correct the shortcomings of the proposed legislation before a bill gets passed.
The alternanive, to keep things as they are, will probably rule the day for the near future. But big business wants the little guy out of the equation and they have the bucks to buy the votes. Afterall, once the little guys spend more on accounting than they do on inventory the game is up.
"make them vulnerable to audits from multiple state" squeeze every drop out of business, not counting the po po po pork that's stuffed in this bill that we don't know about!
Tell Bob to also be prepared to kill Amnesty too. If it passes - they will get guns and it is over. VA likes guns and so do I. Sadly I lost my .22 in a boating accident.
Thanks for the update and his take. Massive nightmare? Those evil CS'er in the Senate and House passed ObamaCare.
I think this all hinges on whether Boehner gets his orange tan tubes online or at his local Rite Aid.
Collecting tax in one state for some other state violates the precept of Territotial Jursidiction.
The Civil War was fought over Territorial Jurisdiction.
U.S. Constitution: Article 1, Section 9, Clause 5. "No tax or other duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state."
Does this tax apply to downloaded porn? That would be disturbing.
"Does this tax apply to downloaded porn? That would be disturbing."
The SEC would never allow that. Get real.
Someone said Amazon is trying to pull an online Walmart. I think that's a good analogy. Keep in mind this is with the government's help.
From what I've read, companies under $1M will be exempt. Another way of suppressing the enterprenuerial and self-employed. Doing a $1M gross with maybe $150K net? Think you'll hire any extra people and maybe pass over the $1M line, triggering the addition of a whole new layer of paperwork and hassle? Not a chance.
We've already seen the effects of Obamacare on small biz trying to keep under the 50 FT worker line. Here's another one to further the misery of this Depression. Something like 1.6 million formerly self-employed are already in limbo.
"It's how we step on 'em while they're still ants."
Had a "small business" "just under $200 mil a year" gumnut contractor tell me that once when I learned I had to relenquish a 10% retainer for a year. Most of my whole margin.
Fuck that. Open a second corporation with a second set of hyperlinks. 1.8 million in sales split twice means you can grow. Cut minimum shipping charges and send all shipments to a third corporation that runs a perpetual loss for three years (and defaults on capital loans from the other two corps while shielding your personal income) If customers dont like to price amd checking out twice .... that's their problem.
Fuck the goddamned feds amd out of state tax collectors.
Next up .... we need corporations that spawn other corporations using online registrations and automated code that eat each other and default every few days. Make those fucking tax collectors debug and earn it.
So millions of people went for showcase in brick & mortar shops, then, having spent time and money on gas, instead of purchasing a thing and driving home with it, they would go online to pay extra for shipping and handling, all just to avoid the state income tax. And that is killing brick & mortar shops!? Brilliant justification for fairness.
This is not about fairness, this is about slavery. I refuse to do pro bono work for Californica in collecting their abusive sales tax when I live in another state. This is a constitutional matter, no more, no less. The asshole Republican who had anything to do with this should be turned out of office and replaced by a slime mold. It would do less damage.
seems like someone else was making a claim of being a slave recently somewhere.
http://news.yahoo.com/lauryn-hill-gets-3-months-failing-pay-taxes-212157...
Was this legislation titled "The Anti-Dog-Eat-Dog Bill"?
No longer does the pot of gold rest at the end of the California rainbow. Now that position is occupied by…the taxman. When the multinationals skip out of taxes on the mainland, and/or offshore all the nation’s manufacturing base, then the welfare burdened states turn once again to their citizens to pay for the multinationals’ monopoly privileges.
This is coming to all states and California is the vanguard.
The statewide excise tax on gasoline in California will rise by 3.5 cents to 39.5 cents per gallon starting July 1.
Since July 2011, a new state law signed by Jerry Brown requires large out-of-state retailers to collect sales taxes on purchases that their California customers make on the Internet.
California law also requires tax on in-state internet purchases, and requires tax on internet items purchased out-of-state for use in California. Anyone, especially small businesses and the self employed, caught not filing these taxes is fined. Needless to say, they file.
California, which raised its sales and income taxes through the initiative process last November, has the highest state-level rate at 7.5 percent
California’s combined state and local sales tax rate is 8.38%.
Since Jan. 1, California retailers have been required to collect an extra 1 percent tax on sales of certain lumber products including plywood, 2-by-4s and unfinished decking, fencing and railings. Our new Mexican/Teachers Union/Liberal Democrat Senate and Assembly sans Republicans approved the tax with a slim two-thirds majority and Gov. Jerry Brown signed it in September, so there was no need to put it to voters.
California, which in November also raised taxes on the wealthy, now has the highest combined federal and state income tax rate in the United States. It was 43.6% in 2012 and has gone up to 47.6% this year, according to Tax Policy Center Fellow James Nunns. (Nunns' calculations account for the deductibility of state income taxes on federal returns, lowering the overall rate.)
State filers with $250,000 to $300,000 a year in income will pay 10.3%, up from 9.3% on a portion of their income. The new top income tax rate on income of $1 million-plus will be 13.3%,
And if that isn’t enough, I just bought a box of Mother’s Day candy at William Buffett’s See’s Candies and believe it or not, they charged me 25 cents for the bag to put it in , a new local ordinance.
I bring all this up to illustrate the changing open-border demographics in American and the resultant economic problems and costs that the multinationals and the tax havens are creating. Here’s an example from the UK:
A 2012 article by MailOnline says thatAmazon.co.uk’s latest accounts reveal that it did not pay a single penny of British corporation tax in either 2010 or 2011.
With this editorial comment from MainOnline:
_____________________________
GOOGLE AND SORDID REALITY OF TAX AVOIDANCE
Giant American internet companies such as Amazon and Google have made huge inroads into the UK, claiming to be forces for good that give customers access to music, books and information more easily and cheaply.
The truth is rather less wholesome. Just like the American robber barons of the Edwardian era – Carnegie, Rockefeller and Vanderbilt – they have embarked on a land-grab; not for steel, oil or real estate, but for intellectual and cultural property.
They are ruthless would-be monopolists – and avoidance of tax is part and parcel of the plunder.
Today’s revelation (7 April 2012) that the UK tax authorities are investigating Amazon is bad enough, but the situation at Google is arguably even more egregious as it has its hooks deep into the highest echelons of the Government.
David Cameron’s former adviser Steve Hilton is married to Rachel Whetstone, a former head of communications at Google, who was also godmother to the Prime Minister’s late son Ivan.
And only a few days ago, Chancellor George Osborne was hobnobbing with Google bigwigs at the opening of the ‘Google Campus’ in east London, a new centre meant to serve as a hub for fledgling high-tech firms, giving it the glow of his official approval.
For all his talk of a clampdown on ‘morally repugnant’ tax avoidance, Mr Osborne is behaving like an impotent bystander as Amazon and Google trample over the crumbling British high street and raze our creative industries to the ground.
As well as minimizing its corporation tax in the UK, Amazon also uses tax dodges to reduce VAT payments to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, with VAT on its e-books payable at the Luxembourg rate of just 3 per cent, rather than the rate here of 20 per cent.
For its part, Google has shielded itself from the British taxman by locating its international operations in Ireland, where the corporation tax rate is a mere 12.5 per cent, around half that in Britain.
Even that rock-bottom Irish rate, however, is not low enough to satisfy the company and its wealthy founders.
It has deployed complex techniques known to tax experts as a ‘Double Irish’ or a ‘Dutch Sandwich’ to funnel profits to the white sands of Bermuda, via the Netherlands.
The result: Google, which makes much of its money from advertising, racked up sales of £2.1billion in the UK, but paid a mere £5million of tax, or a rate of less than a quarter of one per cent.
Other achingly trendy American technology companies embraced by the UK consumer are also adept at keeping their tax payments down.
Apple, whose British stores are mobbed every time it produces a new iPad or iPhone, has stashed some £40billion in overseas subsidiaries, including the British Virgin Islands tax haven. It also has significant operations in Ireland, including a production facility.
Facebook, the social networking site, has also set up shop in Dublin to avail itself of the lenient tax regime available on the banks of the Liffey…
Yet the sordid reality of tax avoidance, to swell the corporate coffers at a time when many of their own customers are fearful and struggling to make ends meet, is starkly at odds with these carefully constructed facades.
But a spokeswoman for Google said: 'We have an obligation to our shareholders to set up a tax efficient structure, and our present structure is compliant with the tax rules in all the countries where we operate.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2125790/Amazon-faces-probes-paying-penny-company-tax-UK-2-years.html#ixzz2SYu5x4I1
Moonbeam is only trying to point out to the more astute among us just how close Oregon really is to CA. Portland thanks him!
Funny how there are so few gas stations and retail malls on the Cally side of the OR, NV and AZ border towns.
Let's see if I have this straight:
The US Senate doesn't pass a budget for over 4 years.
The US Senate passes a bill (by 2/3) that will raise taxes.
Yep. That sounds perfectly acceptable. Why isn't (Pubic) Harry Reid hanging from a lamppost somewhere with his pants around his cankles?
years and generations of puss-ification.
Ohhh Shit, I like the lamp post thing, however only a paid hooker should have to see him with his pants around his cankles.
Fuck, do you know how much booze its gonna take to wash that visual outta my head.
Ohhh well...bottoms up.
Ccanuck.
The "Marketplace Fleecing Act" is also about Amazon getting favors from Enzi. Not only do they get a competitive advantage with the distribution system, they get additional revenue selling their sales tax system and keeping it away from their competitors at EBay.
U.S. Constitution: Article 1, Section 9, Clause 5. "No tax or other duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state."
We need a constitutional amendment to change this constitutional law, not a mere statute passed by politicians.
'We need a constitutional amendment to change this constitutional law, not a mere statute passed by politicians.'
I don't think they pay much attention to the Constitution these days.
Well in that case I'm starting up my own slave market, good money in slaves with good teeth.
What's a constitution?
If Congress was about fairness they wouldn't have all those perks now would they?
Government's redistribution of wealth.
First taxes on internet sales then VAT taxes. Siezure of 401Ks and IRAs to follow at some point.
That's already happening, right?
401ks and savings are drying up because cost of living (inflation) and impacts of government ineptness making it difficult to find other than subsistance earning, both things caused by the criminals running the show now, it's the same as taxing, no?
Some comments about "fairness"
It's not "fair" that the dinosaurs became extinct.
Therefore logically we must pass any form of legislation that makes humanity extinct also.
This is about "fairness" yes?
So any reasonable person must surely agree, no?
If the House actually passes this, the unintended consequences will be huge:
1. Postal Service volume and revenue down so even bigger deficits in their operating budget.
2. Layoffs at Fed Ex and UPS.
3. Many small Internet product sellers go under and switch from paying taxes to collecting unemployment
4. Amazon may think it will help them but instead it will reduce sales across the whole Internet, and especially their Lightning Deals and impulse purchases
FEDEX got bunged $10.1 billion dollars of USPS money to deliver packages for them, as for layoffs they have run out of people to let go it's all contract labour now.
I believe the offical language at FEDEX is now Urdu.
Hopefully people will just stop buying. What do we really need? Food, (basic) clothing, and shelter. My wallet is shut.
I don't mean this in a negative way, but maybe unintentionally, you sound like a granola crunching leftist, "basic existence is all we need."
I live in the US, I was born and raised and thrived in a great country where people could have liberty AND things.
Why do I want to live like those fucks in those shit hole countries when I can live well in this one? More than the basics.
It STILL can be that way, again, but the gate is slamming fast.
Agree with your sentiments though.
Easy to go around this coming internet tax. If you are online seller, one customer order a $10 product from you, you charge him $0 for product, add $10 to shipping&handling, this way, $0 x any tax rate = 00. Everything back to normal.
What difference does that make? The tax applies to everything added up together
Fine. Ill just stop buying things online, or offline.
Fine. Ill just stop buying things online, or offline.
Living in the cave is not as easy as it may seem. As soon as you go hunting or berry picking you are trespassing someone's property... buy hey, that may land you in jail. That's it! That's the solution!
Since the system is on the margin as it is, simply cutting back the non essentials will be enough to blow it up.
It IS the solution. Buy second hand. Grow your own food. Raise chickens (we have 23). If you regularly do something and and some snide, smarmy asshole kicks you in the nuts every time you do it, just stop.
well, as long as isn't illegal to raise chickens, like it is here in collier county...never mind it being 'illegal' to bring your dog to a public park (only designated dog parks).
that said, why the fuck do I live here?
Why can't we just set up a new government. We have our own elections, own capitals, own politicians parallel to the current incompetence. Start it all up for fun and see how far it goes.
Call it Bitgov
Buy Buy Buy!
A politician would never cure cancer. They would just make sure everyone had a smidge of cancer......to make it fair.
That's Obamacare for you....
And equal malignancy for all
Up arrow BUT, it seems like corporations ain't doing it either for obvious reasons.
What was the last major disease that was killed off, polio?
Better to keep em alive and dependent on your 'treatments'. Who cares if they suffer.
My wife died from the 'treatment' of ovarian cancer.
If companies selling with total sales under 1 million are exempt from collecting sales tax, does that mean it's cheaper to buy from the small guy?
Government's inate purpose is to tax. Government is a parasite, a thief, a criminal that lives off the production of the hard working private individual. They've lost their way. This is not their role. The criminals have gotten in and taken over. Government is Public Enemy #1.
Everyone pays sales tax or no one pays sales tax. One way or the other.
Government's goal, which they are moving towards, is 1$ for you... $99 for the government.
How far will American's allow themselves to be pushed? Is there a limit or will they just go over the cliff?
"Government is Public Enemy #1."
Q: How do I know this claim of yours is valid?
A: http://www.thebrennerbrief.com/2013/05/07/ahead-of-benghazi-hearings-oba...
A century ago, a teeny weeny income tax bill. Now... an online merchant sales tax bill... which is the stalking horse for what will beoome a VAT on top of State sales taxes.
in Maryland they now tax the rain, they now require state fishing tag to surf fish the ocean, somebody needs to pay for all the new illegal (undocumented) immigrant's benefits, but the FED has created trillions of FRN's as some sick old pol said "deficits don't matter"..well then No taxes and let Ben print us to prosperity.
Don't worry, Obowel will not sign it even if it passes the house, because it would raise taxes on people making less than $250,000 a year, and OBowel promised he would not do that........
Hmmm...why does everyone on the internet live in Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon? Those states must be elbow to elbow with businesses and consumers.