This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

The Real Cypriot "Blueprint" - How To Confiscate $32 Trillion In "Offshore Wealth"

Tyler Durden's picture


The Cypriot deposit confiscation has come and gone (and in a parallel world in which the global Bernanke-put never existed and in which bank shareholders were not untouchable, this is precisely how real-time bank restructurings should have taken place), but fears remain that the country's "resolution" mechanism will be the template for future instances of "resolving" insolvent banks. That may or may not be the case: the only way to know for sure is during the next European bank bailout, but one thing is certain - Cyprus was certainly a template when it comes to how a world full of insolvent sovereigns (all engaged in currency warfare), where easing, quantitative or otherwise no longer works to boost the economy, will approach what is the last chance for monetary replenishment - taxation of financial assets, just as we warned first back in 2011. Specifically, Cyprus showed the "template" for confiscating Russian oligarch billionaire "ill-gotten", untaxed cash, which many in Germany demanded should be the quid for ongoing German-funded quo. And here's the rub. There is more where said "ill-gotten" cash has come from. Much more... $32 trillion more.

An estimate by James Henry, senior advisor of Tax Justice Network, confirms that the Cypriot confiscation template will certainly be used again and again for one, or 32 trillion simple reasons: the amount of illicit, off-shore held wealth, to which the proprietors have zero recourse in a world in which the war against tax evaders has gone both nuclear and global, has grown to stupendous levels. To wit: "A significant fraction of global private financial wealth -- by our estimates, at least $21 to $32 trillion as of 2010 -- has been invested virtually tax-­free through the world's still-­expanding black hole of more than 80 "offshore" secrecy jurisdictions."

It hardly needs mentioning that to a Europe mired in years of painful "austerity" (which is what Europe inaccurately blames its sordid, depressionary fate on when in reality it is merely reverting to a state that is justified by reality when an unsustainable decade-long credit bubble finally pops), "tax-free offshore wealth" is the purest possible code word for "confiscation-eligible."

Tying it all together, as a reminder a few days ago we noted that in the US alone there is a "high quality collateral" shortage of some $11 trillion. Extrapolating this to the entire world, the amount balloons to a little over $30 trillion.... or roughly the amount that is held in offshore tax shelters which may or may not be susceptible to confiscation. And while confiscated cash is hardly the collateral that banks need in order to preserve the illusion that a world rooted in repo and other shadow liabilities is stable, it will certainly extend and pretend the illusion for a little longer.

From this perspective, it becomes immediately obvious that the Russian oligarchs parking their cash in Cyprus were merely the Guniea Pigs, and the several billions or so confiscated (under the guise of bank resolution of course), will hardly be sufficient to fund Europe's coffers, where insolvent nations and banks have become synonymous, which is why any incremental capital deficiencies will be cured precisely using the Cypriot tax confiscation weath-redistribution template.

But even that is just the beginning. Because in the Tax Justice report we immediately read that...

Remember: this is just financial wealth. A big share of the real estate, yachts, racehorses, gold bricks -- and many other things that count as non-­financial wealth - are also owned via offshore structures where it is impossible to identify the owners. These are outside the scope of this report.


On this scale, this - offshore economy - is large enough to have a major impact on estimates of inequality of wealth and income; on estimates of national income and debt ratios; and - most importantly - to have very significant negative impacts on the domestic tax bases of key "source" countries (that is, countries that have seen net unrecorded private capital outflows over time.)

(yes, we underlined gold bricks - soon to be confiscated from a bank vault near you all to fund "bank resolution").

So for anyone who still hasn't gotten the memo, and understood that "offshore tax-haven" is now the most dangerous oxymoron in an insolvent world, here is the intro from the 2012 Tax Justice report which is a must read for everyone confused about Europe's confiscatory blueprint:

The 139-country focus group: who are the real debtors?


We have focused on a subgroup of 139 mainly low-­middle income "source" countries for which the World Bank and IMF have sufficient external debt data.


Our estimates for this group underscore how misleading it is to regard countries as "debtors" only by looking at one side of their balance sheets.


Since the 1970s, with eager (and often aggressive and illegal) assistance from the international private banking industry, it appears that private elites in this sub-­group of 139 countries had accumulated $7.3 to $9.3 trillion of unrecorded offshore wealth in 2010, conservatively estimated, even while many of their public sectors were borrowing themselves into bankruptcy, enduring agonizing "structural adjustment" and low growth, and holding fire sales of public assets.


These same source countries had aggregate gross external debt of $4.08 trillion in 2010. However, once we subtract these countries' foreign reserves, most of which are invested in First World securities, their aggregate net external debts were minus $2.8 trillion in 2010. (This dramatic picture has been increasing steadily since 1998, the year when the external debts minus foreign reserves was at its peak for these 139 countries, at +$1.43 trillion.


So in total, by way of the offshore system, these supposedly indebted "source countries" - including all key developing countries - are not debtors at all: they are net lenders, to the tune of $10.1 to $13.1 trillion at end-­2010.


The problem here is that the assets of these countries are held by a small number of wealthy individuals while the debts are shouldered by the ordinary people of these countries through their governments.


As a U.S. Federal Reserve official observed back in the 1980s: "The real problem is not that these countries don't have any assets. The problem is, they're all in Miami (and, he might have added, New York, London, Geneva, Zurich, Luxembourg, Singapore, and Hong Kong)"


These private unrecorded offshore assets and the public debts are intimately linked, historically speaking: the dramatic increase in  unrecorded capital outflows (and the private demand for First World currency and other assets) in the 1970s and 1980s was positively correlated with a surge in First World loans to developing countries: much of this borrowing left these countries under the table within months, and even weeks, of being disbursed.


Today, local elites continue to "vote with their financial feet" while their public sectors borrow heavily abroad - but it is First World countries that are doing most of the borrowing. It is these frequently heavily indebted source countries and their elites that have become their financiers. In terms of tackling poverty, it is hard to imagine a more pressing global issue to address.


How this wealth is concentrated. Much of this wealth appears to be concentrated in the hands of private elites that reside in a handful of source countries - many of which are still regarded officially as "debtors."


By our estimates, of the $7.3- $9.3 trillion of offshore wealth belonging to residents of these 139 countries, the top 10 countries  account for 61 percent and the top 20 for 81 percent. 


Untaxed Offshore Earnings start to swamp outflows. Our estimates also correct the sanguine view that since new outflows of capital appear to have recently declined from countries like Mexico and Brazil, capital flight is no longer a problem for these countries.


Once we take into account the growth of large untaxed earnings on accumulated offshore wealth, it turns out that from 1970 to 2010 the real value (in $2000) of these earnings alone may be has much as $3.7 trillion - equivalent to about 60 percent of the global total unrecorded capital outflows during this period. For Latin America, Sub-­Saharan Africa and the Middle East that have long histories of accumulating offshore wealth and unreported earnings abroad, the ratio is close to 100 percent or more.


By shifting attention from flows to accumulated stocks of foreign wealth, this paper calls attention to the fact that retention of  investment earnings abroad can easily become so significant that initial outflows are eventually replaced by "hidden flight," with the hidden stock of unrecorded private wealth generating enough unreported income to keep it growing long after the initial outflows have dried up. 


Offshore earnings swamp foreign investment. Another key finding is that once we fully account for capital outflows and the lost stream of future earnings on the associated offshore investments, foreign direct and equity investment flows are almost entirely offset - even for some of the world's largest recipients of foreign investment.


Wide open and "efficient" capital markets: how traditional theories failed. Standard development economics assumes that financial capital will flow predominantly from "capital-­rich" high-saving rich countries to "capital-­scarce" countries where returns on investment are higher.


But for many countries the global financial system seems to have enabled private investor motives - understandable ones like asset diversification along with less admirable ones like tax evasion -- to swamp the conventional theory. Reducing frictions in global finance, which was supposed to help capital flow in to capital-­starved developing countries more easily and efficiently, seems to have encouraged capital to flow out. This raises new questions about how "efficient" frictionless global capital markets are.


The active role of private banks. Our analysis refocuses attention on the critical, often unsavory role that global private banks play. A detailed analysis of the top 50 international private banks reveals that at the end of 2010 these 50 collectively managed more than $12.1 trillion in cross-border invested assets from private clients, including via trusts and foundations. Consider the role of smaller banks, investment houses, insurance companies, and non-bank intermediaries like hedge funds and independent money managers in the offshore cross-border market, plus self-managed funds, and this figure seems consistent with our overall offshore asset estimates of US$21-$32 trillion.


A disproportionate share of these assets were managed by major global banks that are well known for their role in the 2008 financial crisis, their generous government bailouts and bountiful executive compensation packages. We can now add this to their list of  distinctions: they are key players in many havens around the globe, and key enablers of the global tax injustice system.

It is interesting to note that despite choppy markets the rank order at the top of the private banking world has been remarkably stable - key recent trends have been for an increased role for independent boutique money managers and hedge funds, and a shift toward banks with a strong Asian presence. 


Offshore Investor Portfolios. Based on a simple model of offshore investor portfolio behavior, data from the Bank for International Settlements (BIS), and interviews with private bankers and wealth industry analysts, this yields a "scale-­up" factor that is also consistent with the aggregate range for 2010 noted earlier.


A simple model, based on a combination of BIS data on cross-­border deposits and other asset holdings by "non-­bank" investors, an analysis of portfolio mix assumptions made by wealth industry analysts, and interviews with actual private banks, suggests an overall multiplier of 3.0 to scale up our cross-border deposits figure to total financial assets. This is very conservative.

And the punchline, or where the "template" was literally spelled out for anyone seeking:

New Revenue Sources for Global Needs. Finally, if we could figure out how to tax all this offshore wealth without killing the proverbial Golden Goose, or at least entice its owners to reinvest it back home, this sector of the global underground is also easily large enough to make a significant contribution to tax justice, investment, and paying the costs of global problems like climate change.

Guess what Cyprus was: Europe finally "figuring out" how to tax all this offshore wealth. So the only thing needed to reapportion even more offshore wealth - more "bank failures" whose "resolution" will represent precisely the "ethically-justified" basis for German popular consumption to confiscate the money which to some 99.9% of the population should not have been accumulated in the first place.

Or, to summarize all of the above: with the middle class now wiped and tapped out, the wealthy have finally turned on themselves!

Finally, for those who find themselves at the top of these two wealth pyramids, we suggest you panic:


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:24 | 3537618 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

"The problem here is that the assets of these countries are held by a small number of wealthy individuals while the debts are shouldered by the ordinary people of these countries through their governments. "

Is this the problem or desired outcome?  Also regarding Cyprus, I thought all the rich russians got their money out while the cypriot people got annihilated.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:28 | 3537633 whotookmyalias
whotookmyalias's picture

LOL, the problem is that govt and banks are greedy bastards and they will villify anyone they can to help fund their inability to manage their affairs.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:32 | 3537642 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Only as long as they won't get their head ripped off in return, so they go after the soft target..., and that winds up being ma and pa.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:37 | 3537668 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Hey looky!... MOAR pyramids!...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:43 | 3537677 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

Where's the eye that's supposed to be on the top of the pyramid?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:46 | 3537692 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

you'll shoot your eye out kid!... [poor Ralphie could never face the facts]...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:56 | 3537717 JohnGaltsChild
JohnGaltsChild's picture

No, but he did show a lot of interest in the lamp.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:26 | 3537820 whotookmyalias
whotookmyalias's picture

I like lamp

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:06 | 3537928 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

James Henry, senior advisor of Tax Justice Network <-- let's just hope nothing bad happens to this great savior of the masses

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:30 | 3537963 Son of Loki
Son of Loki's picture

"Why let all those 401(k)'s go to waste? Lets take them."



The 401's are perhaps the lowest lying fruit for the bankers to steal next.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:51 | 3538324 butchee
butchee's picture

401k's=sheeple pens

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:18 | 3538170 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

"major global banks ... are key players in many havens around the globe, and key enablers of the global tax injustice system"

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:13 | 3538393 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Actually, the real question (for the enterprising and thinking man) is:  How do you access all those hundreds of $Trillions in Derivatives, and convert them into money -- to buy up half the planet (with worthless paper confetti)?

/ Hey, glass beads & shiny crap worked on the Natives -- it got them Long Island!  I'll bet that people who are Doing God's Work, have been working on this one for years, if not centuries. /s

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:50 | 3537703 Rubbish
Rubbish's picture

If I fall out of the 2nd tier of wealth, I"M GOING FULL RETARD

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:41 | 3537857 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Tyler is mixing up two different kinds of 'financial assets' and saying some very shocking, morally wrong and outrageous things, such as this at the top of Tyler's article:

« The Cypriot deposit confiscation has come and gone ... this is precisely how real-time bank restructurings should have taken place ... »

My God, NO!

The Cyprus deposit confiscations hit a lot of real people and small businesses ... wiped them out and destroyed them.

There is indeed a good moral argument for going after the offshore trillions of traitors and oligarchs who robbed and stole from their people ...

But that is way different from stealing the savings and funds of small businesses and middle-class people who have a few hundred thou saved for themselves and family, or temporarily in their business account cash flow.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:55 | 3537893 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

To your point, the US Government has not moved against Apple, for example, for retaining earning offshore or for any such setting up of its distribution channels to keep gains offshore.  Why not? Why go after Joe Two-Million DollarGuy when hundreds of billions in tax-free earnings ripe for the taxing are languishing in orbit?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:23 | 3538208 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

the problem isn't taxes, the problem is that the beast is too big, the beast must retreat

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:31 | 3538213 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

bank guy in Brussels, the most vulnerable always get hurt the worst!

Here is a high quality, information dense, video on Cyprus 2007-2012

Cyprus crisis:

The road to the March Eurogroup

It is about 12 minutes long ...

I watched it 3 times to get the

rate of change over 5 years!

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:41 | 3538272 BigJim
BigJim's picture

 ...The Cyprus deposit confiscations hit a lot of real people and small businesses ... wiped them out and destroyed them.

How can you call yourself 'bank guy' when you appear to have no understanding of banking? 

    The Cyprus deposit ...

There were no deposits. Deposit banking died out with the arrival of central banks. We have loan banking - the 'depositors' 'deposits' were unsecured loans to banks.

     ...confiscations ...

the money wasn't 'confiscated' - it was already gone. If the foreigners hadn't (partially) bailed the Cypriots out they would have wound up with even less.

    ...hit a lot of real people and small businesses ... wiped them out and destroyed them. 

Well, that's what happens when you make bets by becoming an unsecured creditor of a highly-leveraged institution belonging to a system run by corrupt/idiotic bureaucrats - you stand to lose your gambling money.

"But they didn't realise they were unsecured creditors" I can hear you cry. Frankly, ANYONE who didn't study the basics of banking - after all the hoo-hah of 2007/2008 - was being negligent. Tyler is absolutely right - no banks should ever be bailed out, EVER, and the losses should fall on the shoulders of those who invested in them... and that includes the depositors.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:44 | 3538297 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Deposit insurance to encourage more money to leverage.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:19 | 3538416 BigJim
BigJim's picture


But when your government is the only 'backing' behind banks that have liabilities far in excess any amount your government can cover, you shouldn't be leaving your money in local banks.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:20 | 3538427 GreatUncle
GreatUncle's picture

If a bank fails top level now the CEO and those at the highest level should have their worth confiscated to pay towards the debt first, depositers second.

Nice job banking, run a faudulent business, rack up loads of debt and take big bonuses then when it all goes tits up you walk away with your ill gotten gains.

Can see a career in that, a lifelong one along the lines a criminal robs a bank goes to jail then when they get out get to keep what they stole.

Thu, 05/09/2013 - 14:19 | 3545381 BigJim
BigJim's picture

This should apply to all companies, not just banking.

Limited liability is a fraud's charter. 

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:35 | 3537658 Burt Gummer
Burt Gummer's picture

Where's the elevator to the top of this thing anyway?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:44 | 3537680 Going Loco
Going Loco's picture

reposted below

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:28 | 3537829 TheMadNumismatist
TheMadNumismatist's picture

I cannot let this article pass because The Tax Justice Network are a bunch of left wing, union funded loons that make up numbers out of the air.

See here for a more robust parsing of their insane claims by a fellow of the Adam Smith institute; They really are fantastic:

And they have their own category:

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:14 | 3537941 kentmills
kentmills's picture

"The problem here is that the assets of these countries are held by a small number of wealthy individuals while the debts are shouldered by the ordinary people of these countries through their governments"

When did the wealth of individuals become the assets of these countries?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:42 | 3538282 BigJim
BigJim's picture

It's called Statism... the basic concepts of which have been around for some time, I believe.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 17:56 | 3538877 defencev
defencev's picture

When did the wealth of individuals become the assets of these countries?

This is a very good point. The debt of developed world is mostly what they pay for their health care systems. The "growing gap"

in income is mostly because that ,say, US corporations derive their income overseas. In other words, why poor worker in Bangladesh should be responsible for high wages and benefits of unproductive American counterparts? More productive people try to secure their earnings in any way they can, including using offshore structures. All these whining about growing inequality, elites, masons,Jews etc. is just reflection of growing number of morons who are worthless, stupid, unproductive jerks wishing to confiscate whatever they can from more productive compatriots or even poor workers in places like Bangladesh.


Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:22 | 3537953 bonin006
bonin006's picture

"I thought all the rich russians got their money out while the cypriot people got annihilated."

Since the Russians don't seem to be complaining much anymore, that seems the most likely case, but the Eurocrats will go on lying about it, claiming they punished the "evil" Russians to save the little guys.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:31 | 3539186 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

Yes the Russians did via using a branch that was located in Russia that wasn't closed.  It was done on purpose even by the Russian workers themselves and if not done by Cypriots they would have been threatened.  Do you aka bank manager really want to tell some Russian billionaire or big money man that we won't allow your money out.  Either you get threatened or killed, or you accept the money they give you enough to do it and then quit your job.  Also they are correct, the wealthy are feeding on each other.  This usually is a sign of the end is near.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:24 | 3537623 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

I'm looking at a dollar bill. Why is the top of the pyramid seperated from the rest and have an eye?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:29 | 3537640 Bearwagon
Bearwagon's picture

In Pluribus Fool 'em!

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:07 | 3537746 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The view from that all-seeing eye thingy is so cool...  It can see the twelve largest disciples of Mammon each with a USB thumb drive gathering at the BIS and literally shoving ALL the world's (including your) monetary wealth wealth up their collective asses.  Outside of M0, money ONLY exists on servers of the core central banks- IT NEVER GOES ANYWHERE.  If you "deposit" a million dollars with JPM- there is an electronic record at JPM that they owe you a million dollars (which is an utterly worthless record if they Corzine you), but that million dollars actually resides as a JPM credit on an FRBNY server- and NOWHERE ELSE (after being deducted from another member bank's account on the same server).  If you deposit a million dollars with a bank in the British Virgin Islands, that money still ONLY resides on an FRBxx server.  There are probably a few more "intermediate" inter-bank debits and credits between "you" and "your money" since the whole purpose is to navigating around the US tax man - but that money still ONLY exists on a US Federal Reserve server.  Watching politicians up-end couch cushions, entire countries, and the Rule of Law in a counter-productive search for spare change, when all they have to do is reach up Bernanke's ass is hilarious.  But they don't have the balls to do that, and Jamie Dimon is probably laughing his ass off at their naivete...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:13 | 3539132 enloe creek
enloe creek's picture

so what server are my  stackables on


Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:36 | 3539194 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Barbarous relics (and any thing else that can't be entirely controlled by FED and its member banks) isn't part of the money supply illusion. 

Great little trick the devil implemented between '33, '71, and whenever AlGo invented the BanksterNet.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:39 | 3537671 duo
duo's picture

Al Gore is at the top of the brick part of the pyramid.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:54 | 3537700 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Masonic symbol for the all-seeing eye of god - an mystical distortion. A universal symbol representing spiritual sight, inner vision, higher knowledge, insight into occult mysteries


Lucifer the light bearer, the illuminated one.



Just because its '2013' doesnt mean ancient things are obselete and not ruling - on the contraire ...'they' have been ruling since day 1. And nothing has changed, their is nothing new under the sun.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:21 | 3537728 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

When the most influential - most powerful people on the planet...visit the same small ancient region that has been violent, political, historical, etc...since we were born and going back 1,000s of know something is up...


You just dont kiss and talk to walls for nothing...Bush, Clinton, Pope JP#2, Obama, Sarkozy, etc...


Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:21 | 3537806 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

In my Masonic Lodge, we raise money for an orphanage, a childrens' hospital, and others in need.

... truly evil stuff.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:59 | 3537882 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

...Along with worshipping stone pillars that have names like Boaz and Jachin.


...Chanting ancient eygptian jargon that you have no idea what you are reciting.


Going thru different occult initiations to progess up thru the different having a noose tied around your neck...


Not being able to disclose practices and teachings to the non fellow craft...etc...


'We do not recommend discussing the connections between Satanism and Freemasonry with a Mason, in an attempt to lead him from the lodge. 

You will not be given a good hearing. 

The conversation will likely end before you have documented the connections.   Most Masons are not aware of the connection and will be offended by your approach.   We present this material here, that you might know that this is a spiritual battle.'


Yes indeed...A spiritual battle...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:31 | 3537936 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

You can worship a bird-man and have statues with important eyes and still die out, by the way. This idea of Good<>Evil dualism is culturally specific and parochial; Try Kusala and akusala for instance; they're much closer to the Greek use of Arete than "Good" and "Evil". Of course, this isn't to say that people haven't used said symbols to justify wiping out the Other, but to claim it's a universal spiritual war is ignoring the fact of how it became the dominant mysticism. 


You know, wiping out all those cultures who didn't share said beliefs and all.


(If you buy into it, you're merely making it worse. Go read some Spinoza sometime, it'll do you good.)



All this nonsense ignores the fact that the core dualism (good-evil) within Egyptian beliefs was between Re and Apep not Horus, ffs. Silly people getting their basics wrong is always a sign of wurble wurble land. Amgawd, The "Illuminati" are using the wrong damn symbol! You'll also notice Apep is a damn snake, which suggests someone was stealing their mythology from them, nudge nudge wink wink. Unless Judaism and Christianity and Islam are actually Egyptian theology in disguise! (O M G)

Look up where Christmas, Easter and so on came from, this conspiracy is MASSIVE.


Hint: appropriating prior beliefs to weaken them & acclimatize converts is hardly new. I dare you to look into how Jesus became a super-warrior figure to the Germanic pagans just to compete btw. Here's Jesus in full chain mail #christianheavymetal.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:56 | 3538056 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

In the Old Testament, the Kings of Israel and Judah were warrior kings.

After the Old Testament times, Herod, King of Judaea, was a warrior king.

In the Book of Revelation, Jesus is a warrior king, so that image was not first created for Germans, or by German warrior kings such as Charlemagne.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:09 | 3538128 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

The riding the donkey is a direct challenge to the then prevailing mythology that Kings rode horses, if you want to do the Biblical scholarship stuff. The Bible is very specific in showing that he wasn't claiming to be an earthly King. (Whether or not that's later propaganda so that the Power of Rome wasn't threatened by the new religion is a different matter, of course).


Oh, and Herod was a puppet-vassal of Rome, not a warrior. Rome kicked the shit out of them a few times [AD70 for example].

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:04 | 3538333 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

If you read Josephus, Herod was a vassal allied with Rome, and a warrior king who fought for the Romans, with Marc Antony and later Octavian, and Herod fought for Herod's own kingdom, with Roman assistance to its ally.

The Jews lost to the Romans partly because of Jewish civil war among themselves.

Gospels were first, Revelation second, and the second version prophecy has Jesus the Messiah or Christ winning the battle of Armegeddon, which is usually interpreted as an "Earthly" battle, not a heavenly or spiritual battle.

Christian history is filled with Christian kings fighting Earthly battles, supposedly for the kingdom of God.

Crusades, etcetera.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:27 | 3538459 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

I'll concede that one about Josephus. The idea that the Jewish state wouldn't have lost if they'd not had a civil war is a bit of a stretch though - it might have taken longer, that's all. The massive Jewish revolts in the 110's onwards (three major ones if I remember rightly) were all swiftly put down (and brutally).

Oh: I don't doubt that Christianity has had an extremely martial element to it throughout it's history, the point was a simple one: Jesus is dressed up as a Germanic warrior / noble.


It's an early form of branding & PR, to sell the religion in that country.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:36 | 3538258 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Look up where Christmas, Easter and so on came from, this conspiracy is MASSIVE.

Most knowledgable Christians know this, and do not accept the Idolatry, evil they represented.Like Halloween, was All Saints Day, until co-opted by the occultic crowd, and done the same way.

The names, and historicity of the pagan days, and mythical goddesses,fertility worship, mean nothing to REAL Chrisitians.


Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:36 | 3538470 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

That's fine, and entirely your choice, but by this logic, the Devil-as-serpent in the garden of Eden is also idolatry. Since it was stolen, directly, from Egyptian mythology and the Jewish culture had direct, historically provable, contact with Egypt. (You'll be wanting to read up on Apep)


Can't have your cake both ways dear.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 16:21 | 3538629 noless
noless's picture

Christianity came before people recognized the seasonal aberrations of the moon?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:20 | 3538180 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"In my Masonic Lodge, we raise money for an orphanage, a childrens' hospital, and others in need."

Ever hear of a wolf in sheeps clothing? Congratulations for helping put sheep's clothes on the wolf.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:11 | 3537734 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

I know you're snarking, but let's do the actual reason, not the "OMG ITZ ILLUNIMANATI!11!!1!!". (Popular culture / music in 'Murica is basically one long string of mis-appropriated symbols at this point, with those creating them only barely understanding what they're parroting[1]. It's faintly humorous and faintly embarrassing).


Imagery of an all-seeing eye can be traced back to Egyptian mythology and the Eye of Horus. Buddhist texts like the Mahaparinibbana Sutta also refer to Buddha as the "Eye of the World" (although no imagery is used). It is frequently used to depict the image of God in Caodaism.

In Medieval and Renaissance European iconography, the Eye (often with the addition of an enclosing triangle) was an explicit image of the Christian Trinity. Seventeenth-century depictions of the Eye of Providence sometimes show it surrounded by clouds or sunbursts. [Eye of Providence]

Tumblr with thousands of examples of it.

This ubiquitous image is most often referred to as the all seeing eye or “eye of providence.” The eye, usually depicted in the sky looking out upon the earth, is an ancient symbol of the sun, and historically has been used as a symbol of omniscience. The idea of the solar eye comes to us from the egyptians, who equated the eye with the deity Osiris; the human eye in its ability to perceive light was viewed as a miniature sun.

The use of the eye emblem to represent God was quite common in the Renaissance; often, the eye would be enclosed within a triangle representing the triune godhead. Such an emblem can be found in numerous examples of Christian art.

This emblem was eventually adopted by Freemasons as a symbol for the Great Architect.

A version of this symbol, elaborate onto the capstone of a pyramid (perhaps in a nod the symbol’s origins in Egypt) forms part of the Seal of the United States, accompanied by the slogan,

Annuit Coeptis , “It (Providence) has favored our undertakings.”[SymbolDictionary]


People here will probably get a kick out of knowing that the man responsible for incorporating it into the American dollar bill was an avid coin collector: "[his] coin collection was the first record in Early American history to serve as collateral on a loan granted to him by William Dilwyn."[wiki]


Even Plato used it: When [the soul] is firmly fixed on the domain where truth and reality shine resplendent it apprehends and knows them and appears to possess reason, but when it inclines to that region which is mingled with darkness, the world of becoming and passing away, it opines only and its edge is blunted, and it shifts its opinions hither and thither, and again seems as if it lacked reason. (The Republic bk. VI, 508d; trans. Paul Shorey)

The eye, Plato says, is unusual among the sense organs in that it needs a medium, namely light, in order to operate. The strongest and best source of light is the sun; with it, objects can be discerned clearly. Analogous things, he writes, can be said of intelligible objects (i.e., the fixed and eternal forms that are the ultimate objects of scientific and philosophical study) [wiki]


To make this even more mundane before we run off into the land of ancient aliens:

Binocular vision is fundamental to predators, and humans rely primarily on their vision to make sense of the world, so it's hardly surprising the eye / sun (your only source of light you didn't create for thousands of years, although the Moon gets a decent nod as well[2]) becomes the "go to" metaphor for whatever you currently think is "the good stuff" (it's also why darkness gets such a bad name, which is a shame).

So, it's basically a universal symbol for a very mundane reason: as ever with humans, the important part is how you use it, and whether you're using it authentically or not. Slapping the eye on your latest album or film "cause it looks cool and vaguely suggests some quasi-mystical belief that you cynically know ze stupids will wurble over" does. not. count. For example, Wil. I. Am. is basically a massive "fuck you if you buy my shit, you're all stupid monkeys" as are a lot of other mass-market produced music.




It's a core symbol because of the way your genetics are. Like turtles, it's symbolism all the way down. The real issue is agreeing on how you're using said symbols, and power disparity leveraged by choosing who you teach them to. This is the core issue of our time, if you missed it.



[1] Although Lady Gaga's use of pink rose petals in an interview with Steven Fry in the FT was fairly inspired, and we're sure she knew what she was doing. (American to English translation of culture via British "national treasure" over afternoon tea, it's all very quaint but if that's what the audience requires to understand it, then so be it)

[2] Please note: this link is deeply silly.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:12 | 3537773 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

You type really fast....

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:39 | 3537824 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Want to know my secret?


I'm part of the Ill... <CTRL + C / CTRL + V>

It's also the basis of various myths around the world, for example: To drink from the Well of Wisdom, Odin had to sacrifice his eye (which eye he sacrificed is unclear), symbolizing his willingness to gain the knowledge of the past, present and future. As he drank, he saw all the sorrows and troubles that would fall upon men and the gods. He also saw why the sorrow and troubles had to come to men.

Mímir accepted Odin's eye and it sits today at the bottom of the Well of Wisdom as a sign that the father of the gods had paid the price for wisdom.[wiki]


p.s. Whoever junked my initial post is obviously an agent of Discordia, trying to silence the truth!

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:06 | 3538116 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

In some Northern hemisphere traditions, the North pole star is the top of the World tree of wisdom.

In other Northern hemisphere traditions, the North pole star is the bottom of the well of wisdom.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:29 | 3537965 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

You're talking about eyes. Did they always sit at the top of a pyramid which is an ancient symbol of Pharoah's awful pride and oppression of his people? So just so we're clear the ones who rob everyone by printing money and giving it to themselves thus giving themselves a bigger proportion of all the wealth due to being nearest the spigot of free money not of any positive virtue, those guys place an image of an awful symbol of oppression and regression (the pyramids) and place at the top (where they are) an eye on the main vehicle of how they rob the People and they do this because of their love of wisdom. Yeah, that makes sense. If I wanted a bullshit answer, I would have asked for one.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:52 | 3538017 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

And the Blessed One saw with the heavenly eye, pure and transcending the faculty of men, the deities, counted in thousands, where they had taken possession of sites in Pataligama. And rising before the night was spent, towards dawn, the Blessed One addressed the Venerable Ananda thus: "Who is it, Ananda, that is erecting a city at Pataligama?"[Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha]

The Triple Gem is also known as the Three Jewels, the Three Treasures or the Triple Refuge. Triratna (Sanskrit) / Tiratna (Pali) Triple Gem is the collective term used to describe Buddha, Dhamma (Pali) or Dharma (Sanskrit) and Sangha. [source]


Hinduism and the third eye: note how it forms a triangle.


It's a fairly common symbol, for a very good reason; triangles are super-funky important to maths.


Oh, and you're actually wrong about the pyramids. They were the equivalent of Chinese ghost cities, designed to keep workers (not slaves) busy during the rainy season (housing bubbles are not a new phenomena):

The ancient Greek historian Herodotus once described the pyramid builders as slaves, creating what Egyptologists say is a myth propagated by Hollywood films.

Graves of the builders were first found nearby in 1990 by a tourist. Egypt's chief archaeologist, Zahi Hawass, said the finds show the workers were paid labourers, rather than slaves. [source]


If you want to argue that there's a four millennial long religion that's morphed from Egypt to Judaism to Christianity to Islam and they're actually Luciferians as well, and the entire world is run by them, you're gonna have to dig up some serious research papers, not your instinct or some guff you read on the internet. Put another way ~ if the Black Death had been just a little more successful, you'd be claiming that Buddah was actually evil and so forth (He was a RICH PRINCE to start off with, can't you see!!!). Instead, the Black Death actually fermented the rise of Western culture, but that's a longer story.


If you want to suggest that the world is run by bastards who use symbols as weapons, you've a much better case. Because it's true: and you're a sucker for giving them power through belief. That's why philosophy and science are important, they're weapons against said symbols.


But, I'm also actually doing their work, due to the following reason:

That might be depressing, but it’s not unexpected. In a new study, David Gal and Derek Rucker from Northwestern University have found that when people’s confidence in their beliefs is shaken, they become stronger advocates for those beliefs. The duo carried out three experiments involving issues such as animal testing, dietary preferences, and loyalty towards Macs over PCs. In each one, they subtly manipulated their subjects’ confidence and found the same thing: when faced with doubt, people shout even louder.

 Gal and Rucker were inspired by a classic psychological book called When Prophecy Fails. In it, Leon Festinger and colleagues infiltrated an American cult whose leader, Dorothy Martin, convinced her followers that flying saucers would rescue them from an apocalyptic flood. Many believed her, giving up their livelihoods, possessions and loved ones in anticipation of their alien saviours. When the fated moment came and nothing happened, the group decided that their dedication had spared the Earth from destruction. In a reversal of their earlier distaste for publicity, they started to actively proselytise for their beliefs. Far from shattering their faith, the absent UFOs had turned them into zealous evangelists. [source]



Jesuits. Smart people, they've known this for centuries.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:59 | 3538058 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

"Oh, and you're actually wrong about the pyramids. They were the equivalent of Chinese ghost cities, designed to keep workers (not slaves) busy during the rainy season (housing bubbles are not a new phenomena)"

Whatever dude. I was taught by a "historian" this little nugget. I'm almost 1000% sure that farmers didn't of their free will decide to toil on the pyramids. What a retarded idea.


Oh hey, we have a bunch of free time. Oh, I know! Let's work our hands to the bone by stacking giant blocks on top of each for the glorification of some douche bag! Yeah, let's do that! 

Oh, your references say that is how it went down? Well, who am I to argue with that retarded idea that makes no sense whatsoever? It makes perfect sense in Keynesian logic too!

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:05 | 3538097 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

You realise that said Eygptian workers were getting paid, right?

So you're saying all those Chinese workers at Apple are forced to be there?


That's interesting...


(You might want to run that through your belief systems to work out what I'm saying. Oh, and I'd agree that the worker argument is certainly useful for the current paradigms, which is why Harvard supports it, but this doesn't make it false. Read the link - it has pretty pictures as well. That's if you're not too arrogant and can still learn something.)

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:19 | 3538136 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Right, they were getting paid by industrialists who had created all kinds of excess wealth. There is no way the pyramids which required huge amounts of human labor when human labor was at a huge premium and there was little wealth were built without oppression. Either the funds to pay were stolen or the labor was forced. The result was a worthless pile of stones. So how is it wrong to say the pyramids were oppressive and regressive? Can you think for yourself at all? Being able to copy and paste information from the internet does not mean you understand anything. To me, it seems you understand nothing.


Quick, find another obscure study or "fact" to make it seem like you have a brain!

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:23 | 3538203 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Human labour wasn't at a premium during the flood season, that's the point. The Pharaohs had to think up a scheme to keep order; oh, and the Pyramids are technically brilliant by the way, they're a magnificent feat of science and engineering, not just "a pile of stones". The suggestion that they're worthless is through the lens of ignorance, sadly ~ they've shown for 4,000 odd years that humans can think.


They're a giant super-massive testament to rationality, masked by the rather pointless Religious aspect of entombing some hob-knob with his golden trinkets. (Getting where I'm coming from yet?)


Lastly, check again what I wrote about China and Apple. I just might be saying something a little more radical than you think...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:36 | 3538261 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

"Human labour wasn't at a premium during the flood season..."

Relative to planting and harvesting seasons of the time. The idea that there was a huge excess amount of labor in Egypt thousands of years ago with a smaller population and no industrialization is just retarded. The idea that without laboring away on a pile of rocks that there wouldn't be order is retarded. This is just crappy pop history from a bunch of morons with degrees. It makes no sense.

"...they're a magnificent feat of science and engineering..."

They stacked stones on top of each other! What is there some magical machine inside I haven't heard about? There is nothing amazing about the engineering or "science". You are such an idiot.

"Lastly, check again what I wrote about China and Apple. I just might be saying something a little more radical than you think..."

Nah, that's okay. I got enough of your "radical sayings" as you call them.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:43 | 3538289 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

You clearly have no fucking idea what goes into building a pyramid.



Go back to watching Honey-Boo-Boo, we're done. Congratulations on failing the exam.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:59 | 3538320 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Everyone! Look at that link! Check out how those brilliant engineers... stacked stones! Holy shit! Amazing stone stacking!

LOL. So... it isn't a stack of stones? Is that right? You act like leaving a space in the middle is some how genius like a nuclear reactor or something. They figured out how to build pyramids by learning from previous mistakes. They previously stacked stones and they fell down. Wow! The end design ends up looking like the stack of stones found on the Faroe Islands. Holy shit, those guys must have been brilliant engineers too to be able to stack stones in such a way! I feel so bad about failing my exam! LOL.


BTW: You orginally said I was wrong on about how the pyramids were oppressive and regressive and provided a link with trivia. I responded with simple basic logic making you look like an idiot. Do you have any response to that or do you concede that my original assertion was correct? Thanks!

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:21 | 3538425 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

For someone who thinks the Masons are running the world, you're tragically ignorant of the why's to their importance or their (original) craft or how deep the infrastructure network has to be to quarry, transport, sculpt, use math to figure angles, trade long distances for gold and electrum cap stones, organize labor, use primitive chemical theory to make the cement to bond the outer layers of limestone to the naked structure that is now that's all left, and so on and so forth.

"regressive" ... in BC 3000ish, when a large percent of humanity was still at the hunter-gatherer stage. I love that "learning from previous mistakes" part, how the fuck do you think science works? That was a pretty nice piece of snark.


But you're trolling, so good job getting me to come along for the ride.  However, you'll note I already covered that possibility though ~ it's the Jesuit comment, for the record.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:46 | 3538498 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

"For someone who thinks the Masons are running the world..."

Could you find where I said that? Cause I can't find that. It is almost like you are totally full of shit.

"...use math to figure angles..."

LOL. Holy shit! Are you serious? Used math to calculate angles? Wow. That is amazing. I stand corrected. Yeah, right. To stack stones, you have to be an engineering genius. Could you expand on this one because I'd really like to see the "facts" behind it?

"I love that "learning from previous mistakes" part, how the fuck do you think science works?"

I'm going to have to tell my two year old daughter that she is an engineering and science genius because of how she learns from stacking blocks. Thanks.

"But you're trolling..."

LOL. You start something and end up looking like a retard therefore, I must be a troll! Of course!

"However, you'll note I already covered that possibility though ~ it's the Jesuit comment, for the record."

I love how you genuinely think you are smart. It's cute.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:54 | 3538537 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

To stack stones, you have to be an engineering genius.


You really don't know what the pyramids looked like originally, do you? You think they're what you've seen in Ben Hur, don't you?

Hint: totally white with a gold / electrum cap on top.

The pyramids of Giza when first completed were covered with a layer of limestone that was smooth and shiny. The inside blocks (which are now exposed) are made of granite. The 2 large pyramids, Khufu and Khafre, were completely covered in the shiny white limestone. The top half of the smallest of the three pyramids, Menkaura, was covered in white limestone, while the bottom half of the pyramid was covered in pink limestone. The capstones of the pyramids were made of a combination of gold & silver which was called electrum.


You win, I'm out.


p.s. I really hope you're not in charge of any financial instruments or work at any company even close to Global Finance. It could explain so much.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 16:00 | 3538559 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

OMG, they looked different then today? Holy shit, so they had radios and light bulbs on them? Or a combustion engine? No, they had fucking different types of rocks on the outside. Stacks of rocks. Why the fuck didn't Egypt use all that cement for something useful like the Romans did? Maybe they were wasting all their labor on huge stupid building projects which served no meaningful purpose?

No, seriously, please expand on the math and angle thing. I really want to hear your explanation for that one.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 16:05 | 3538571 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture


The Romans were around in 300 BC onwards (roughly).

The Eygptians were around and building these pyramids in 3050 BC.


To make this simple for you, that's about two thousand five hundred years, or more than the gap between our current civilization and Rome.



Sir, you just won the internet.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 16:13 | 3538582 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Typical response. Here's some trivia which does not answer the basic question you asked. You have a lot of information but no understanding. BTW, the engineering involved with grinding up limestone and mixing it with water is not advanced at all. The Romans did do legitimate science to greatly improve basic cement. But as you said they existed thousands of years later. Actually, I think Egypt was still around then and they had gone no where with cement with a couple thousand year head start. Must have been their brilliant engineers and wise use of labor.

I'm going to keep asking about the math angles. Please, pretty please, expand on that one.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 16:39 | 3538620 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Actually, it's incredibly hard to give you serious answers. I keep trying to reduce it to your level, but you're so ignorant of the basics of human history it's almost impossible. Your grasp of time is also virtually non-existent, which hampers this further.

I suggest reading up on Pythagoras (495BC), who's considered the starting point to modern maths. You'll note he lived roughly two thousand five hundred years after the pyramids were built.

Why is this relevant? Because cutting stone blocks accurately, building the ramps to lay them, then cutting the corner stones and then cutting the sloped facing outer layer is really difficult without the principles laid down by Pythagoras (he's famous for triangles btw). i.e. so one side of the block snugly fits onto the inner granite while the outer layer retains an accurate angle all the way down 200+ meters of surface, on four sides, with thousands of each block doing this and all fitting together and all maintaining the gradient. The area covered is vast, and they didn't have industrial cutting tools to do this with.



Anyhow, my charity time is up. I've only been responding to see how you think. It's been... educational. 'MURICA!



p.s. The Eygptian Empire has a long history, but it was conquered by the Assyrians in the 7th century BC and then by the Persians in the 5th century. You might have heard of the Persians from the film 300 as the bad guys. You're also seemingly oblivious to the entire crux of Western Civilization, the Greeks and their radical growth of science, arts, technology and so on. Also silver mines. There's a reason "the classics" are the ancient Greeks and then Ancient Romans. Eygpt was still a major player, however, which is why Cleopatra was such a hotty for all those Roman generals. You know, like Caesar and then Mark Anthony. Tip: they weren't really interested in her looks, they wanted access to her economy and military.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 17:03 | 3538729 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

"Actually, it's incredibly hard to give you serious answers. I keep trying to reduce it to your level, but you're so ignorant of the basics of human history it's almost impossible. Your grasp of time is also virtually non-existent, which hampers this further."

LOL. Clearly.

Thanks for the trivia dump. It reallly isn't that complicated for why pi comes up when comparing the base to the height. It is very simple. But it does make sense that you think it is very complicated and one needs to read up on Pythagoras to understand. Obviously, everything important involves lots of trivia. Trivia is the true measure of the man, clearly. It is with you at least.

They learned how to stack stones through experience. They did not know any advanced math or engineering or science because it would have shown up in the rest of the culture. They didn't do anything besides stack stones and they got good at that. That amounted to shit so they got conquered by more advanced civilizations which used labor for more productive means. You can spout off all the trivia you want but I'm not impressed and it reeks of a severe inferiority complex.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 17:13 | 3538760 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

You do know people are still arguing over Pi being involved, right?

The Great Pyramid at Giza, constructed c. 2589–2566 BC, was built with a perimeter of about 1760 cubits and a height of about 280 cubits; the ratio 1760/280 ? 6.2857 is approximately equal to 2? ? 6.2832. Based on this ratio, some Egyptologists concluded that the pyramid builders had knowledge of ? and deliberately designed the pyramid to incorporate the proportions of a circle. Others maintain that the suggested relationship to ? is merely a coincidence, because there is no evidence that the pyramid builders had any knowledge of ?, and because the dimensions of the pyramid are based on other factors.

The earliest written approximations of ? are found in Egypt and Babylon, both within 1 percent of the true value. In Babylon, a clay tablet dated 1900–1600 BC has a geometrical statement that, by implication, treats ? as 25/8 = 3.1250. In Egypt, the Rhind Papyrus, dated around 1650 BC, but copied from a document dated to 1850 BC has a formula for the area of a circle that treats ? as (16/9)2 ? 3.1605

It's almost as if you think that civilization automatically had these concepts and didn't discover them. The math is trivial to us, as are the concepts involved, but you seem determined to argue from your particular temporal position. It's almost pathological, and you seem oblivious to it. As for the "rest of culture"... it's almost as if you don't understand the massive empire they had, all the other stuff they built or anything about them at all. I'm guessing that comes under "trivia" however.


You know, stuff like inventing astronomy, glass working, paper, or advancing medicine, ship building, and so on.


You've also skipped the part about complexity of blocks, but there we go. "Trivia" indeed. I'm sure your daughter could have built it, she sounds like a very smart cookie. You keep arguing though, I'm sure she'll believe you when you say you're right about everything.


Daddy knows best.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 17:18 | 3538787 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Pi shows up due to the practical manner of measuring the base of the pyramids. They didn't have an accurate way of measuring beyond the use of a wheel. A basic unit of measure and wheel are not advanced yet due to using this practical technique learned from practical experience stacking stones under threat of force, pi ends up showing up in the dimensions. This is just academic cloud gazing trivia that does not matter. The pyramids were still oppressive and regressive.


"You've also skipped the part about complexity of blocks, but there we go."

The Egyptians learned how to cut blocks for a pyramid (a completely worthless and impractical skill for all of human history) through practical knowlegde gained from experience building pyramids under the threat of force (just like how they learned to measure the base). I'm seriously supposed to be impressed with this? You really are easily entertained. Honey-Boo-Boo?

BTW: Thanks for the wikipedia link (I'm sure you spend endless hours consuming trivia from there). I didn't realize the Egyptians invented the ramp. Amazing.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 17:25 | 3538820 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

The Egyptians learned how to cut blocks for a pyramid (a completely worthless and impractical skill for all of human history)


For most of Egypt's ancient history, it was a land of fortifications. To some extent, all Egyptian ceremonial buildings, including temples and even funerary complexes, were intended to function as bastions of order and harmony, requiring at least symbolic fortifications to protect them from the surrounding chaos. And from the very beginning, we find references to Egypt's attempts to fortify their country, for the Memphis of Menes, united Egypt's earliest King, was known as Ineb-Hedj, meaning "the White Wall". In fact, the earliest surviving Egyptian fortifications were built to protect towns rather than to defend frontiers. Probably the first evidence for an Egyptian fortress is a Predynastic ceramic model of a building, discovered by Flinders Petrie at Abadiyeh, which appears to show two men peering over a crenellated wall. However, the oldest surviving remains of fortifications are the early dynastic settlements in Upper Egypt at Kom el-Ahmar (Heirakonpolis) and at Elkab.

Unless an enemy was willing to besiege a stronghold until it surrendered or could surprise its garrison and subdue it, he had to conquer it by forcing the gates, by scaling the walls or by breaching them. Since the earliest times measures were taken to prevent these possibilities: Hence, there was an attempt to build fortification walls with massive thickness and of a height that ladders could not be built to scale them. The gates were specifically protected. While the tops of walls are often decayed completely, drawings indicate that there were cornices all around, behind which the defenders could take cover. [source]


You do realize the reason why they could hold their empire for two thousand fucking years before the Assyrians finally conquered them, right? Or that training such techniques during peace time by building "pointless monuments" is a really smart idea, right?


Your ignorance is amazing. It's almost as if you type without even knowing that a Google within 10 seconds proves you wrong.




You're being studied as an example of that paper I sourced, you know, the one where belief is challenged, it gets stronger, the person can't change their mindset. +10 points if you can break your indoctrination.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 17:34 | 3538849 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Wait, if building walls is so helpful, why didn't they use the ridiculous amount of labor that they used for the pyramids to build walls? Did they build all their walls at pyramid angles? Your whole premise is retarded. Use a huge amount of labor to build pyramids thus learning how to build fortifications? Why not just build the fucking fortifications in the first place? We need more trivia! Throw some more shit at the wall and see if any of it sticks.

It is amazing how fucking stupid you are. How many superior civilations have there been since that used fortifications? How many wasted time building pyramids? It is amazing the shit that Egyptologists come up with. It is amazing how fucking retards like you buy all of it.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 17:41 | 3538882 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Repetition, you lost the game.

Or that training such techniques during peace time by building "pointless monuments" is a really smart idea, right?


Sigh, I see I'll have to slow down a little: They build fortifications around their towns. They don't need more in peace time. But they do need the skills to continue through peace time and into war if an enemy arises who is able to destroy walls. Hint: it's why your military isn't disbanded when it's not at war (which is admittedly not often).  Again, your grasp of time is letting you down. Two. Thousand. Years. That's a lot of generations.

And yes, walls of fortifications, right into the Medieval period, are basically trapeziums, and your grasp of their construction is pitiful. Hint: their statues were massive, let alone their fortifications. But they're "just stacking stones", right?

Again, I don't think you've actually bothered to look at any examples of Egyptian architecture. Try Google. I'll help you out.


You're going for gold here.


Five more stupid comments and we break the fourth wall ----------------------------------------------------------------->

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:06 | 3538926 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

So really, they needed to build pyramids to remember how to build walls. Wow. They had stone tablets and papyrus. I don't know. Why not, you know, write it down and then go brew some more beer or something? The idea that you need to build pyramids for practice for building walls in peace time. So you build walls during war time? So like when you are being invaded? It seems the time to build walls is peace time. No, in peace time everything was fortified. They wanted to fortify more but they just ran out of stuff to fortify. They ran out of buildings to build too. They needed to build something so they remembered how to build walls. Ipso facto, pyramids. This is quite the retarded thesis. Congrats.

Funny, I just googled something and got to your quote. So you just google stuff, copy and paste and think this is an argument? Fascinating. You actually don't know anything, you just google and copy and paste trivia from the internet that you find. I kinda felt like I was arguing with the Wheatley of the internet.

You are like the Rocky Balboa of fight club. You get the shit kicked out of you and just drop that (pyramids weren't oppressive and regressive, advanced engineering of stacking stones, mathematics of stacking stones, et al) and move onto the next retarded idea. Oh I know, like the pyramids were practice for building walls. Yeah, that's it. You don't understand Egyptian architecture if you don't understand that one. Here let me google Egyptian architecture and just copy and paste from the second link I find as if I'm saying something.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:13 | 3538970 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Actually, I'm supplying links I think you can understand. I'm happy to link to serious papers, but a) you're not going to read them, b) you're not going to understand them and c) you don't deserve it. Wiki answers back up my argument fine, given they show reality, not something your arguments are doing.

As for your recent dribble. Do you know how many years it takes to become a master mason? (the actual mason, not the ones wearing silly outfits and doing quasi-esoteric rituals) You do realize why, with primitive tools, it's going to take you a long time to master? And you do realize how long it takes to build things with pre-industrial technology, right?


Milan Cathedral: The Gothic cathedral took nearly six centuries to complete. It is the fifth largest cathedral in the world and the largest in the Italian state territory.[wiki]

Florence Cathedral: The first stone was laid on September 9, 1296 by Cardinal Valeriana, the first papal legate ever sent to Florence. The building of this vast project was to last 140 years, the collective efforts of several generations; Arnolfo's plan for the eastern end, although maintained in concept, was greatly expanded in size.[wiki]


I include these because they're at the centre of vast trading empires of their times, with power, influence and money to burn. A good thousand years after the Roman Empire. Granted, not two thousand like our Egyptians, but a thousand none-the-less.


Please, continue: if we exponentially increase your resistance to reality each time we tangle, at some point you'll become a vegetable and stop answering. This is like the reverse of Fox News, it's incredible.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:23 | 3538992 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

" don't deserve it."

LOL. That was awesome. Is this MDB or Paul Krugman?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:10 | 3538958 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Wait. The italics are what you said. Why do you quote yourself and then accuse me of repeating myself? Are, are you actually retarded?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:16 | 3538974 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Oh dear. Bifucation. I quoted myself because I'd already answered your question.


Arguing: you're not good at it. We're about to go plaid btw.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:22 | 3538986 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

So I refuted your quote and your response is to quote yourself and say you already proved that. It doesn't make any sense. LOL.


Tarsubil: This statement is false.

Aurora Ex Machina: Ummm, I'm going to go with true.

Tarsubil: It can't be true! It's a fucking paradox you moron!

LOL. You're just fucking with me. No one is this stupid.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:24 | 3538994 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture



Oh. My.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:29 | 3539011 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

This statement is false.

New mission: refuse this mission.

Something about sets including all sets false something.

Webster definition:


1  : a tenet contrary to received opinion

2 a : a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed tocommon sense and yet is perhaps trueb : a self-contradictory statement that at first seems truec : an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises 3 : one (as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases
Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:35 | 3539031 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

That's not the technical definition of paradox, and Webster knows it. A paradox must include logic, which your posts do not.


Here you go.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:42 | 3539051 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

You are Wheatley.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:53 | 3539072 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Dear. A computer game (even if it is a great one) is no substitute for actual philosophy. It's the same idea as being "good at noscope head shots in COD" isn't the same thing as "surviving three Iraq tours".


I've done the actual real reading. I've also played your silly (but fun) game. It's very obvious the reverse isn't true.


Are you here from Reddit or HN btw? You're lucky you met me btw.

I'm nice. The older denizens here would have your liver out before you could phone your mother. And no, I'm not even joking.


Lions, Tigers and Bears.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:09 | 3539121 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

"I'm nice. The older denizens here would have your liver out before you could phone your mother. And no, I'm not even joking."

I've been here a lot longer than you. And.... I'm bored.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:14 | 3539134 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Should of just said you wanted a play mate.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:25 | 3539168 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

I honestly feel that if we met face to face after a physical confrontation you would be lying on the ground bleeding and calling me a chicken as I walked away. That's what I honestly feel. Am I wrong? Honestly?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:53 | 3539214 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Um, you're kinda wrong.


I'd probably bite your throat out and laugh as you gurgled some macho insult.



If we're being honest and all.


But I've been really good recently about not reacting to people wanting to fight me.


Honest Injun.

Pip Pip.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:13 | 3538967 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

" Again, your grasp of time is letting you down. Two. Thousand. Years. That's a lot of generations."

I like this. Let's think about this some more. Let's say the big pyramids which I'm going to say took 30-50 years to build were needed to remember how to build walls. So if they didn't use a collosal amount of labor for those 50 years, they would have forgotten how to build walls in 2 of the 100 generations that they existed. That is quite the "grasp of time" you have. LOL. This has been genuinely entertaining for me. Thank you.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:15 | 3538972 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

I like this. Let's think about this some more. Let's say the big pyramids which I'm going to say took 30-50 years to build were needed to remember how to build walls. So if they didn't use a collosal amount of labor for those 50 years, they would have forgotten how to build walls in 2 of the 100 generations that they existed. That is quite the "grasp of time" you have. LOL. This has been genuinely entertaining for me. Thank you.


Look up thread, little grasshopper.


Florence Cathedral took 140 fucking years. 



Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:20 | 3538981 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

I don't understand how the time of building a cathedral in Florence thousands of years later is relevant. So how long did it take?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:22 | 3538991 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

You don't understand how a project that's smaller, with technology three thousand years later that takes 140 years to build has any bearing on building a fucking huge pyramid? That's also made out of cut stone?


After you just quoted 30-50 years for building a pyramid in 3050 BC? And claimed that my logic was faulty?



Please be trolling. Or at least I hope your daughter is the milkman's. I really do.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:31 | 3538999 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

"You don't understand how a project that's smaller, with technology three thousand years later that takes 140 years to build has any bearing on building a fucking huge pyramid? That's also made out of cut stone?"

Those are all differences. Big differences. LOL. You're listing differences between the two projects as proof that they're relevant to each other. LOL. You are fucking with me. LOL.

Oh wait, they both involved stone. They do have that in common. LOL.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:32 | 3539026 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Yes. They do have differences. Much like building a small cottage is not like building a skyscraper. But in your world, the skyscraper takes one hundred years less time to build. When you don't have access to cranes. And you've 3,000 years less science and technology. And you're not Chinese, so you can't bang it up in 15 days, 'cause it has to last 4,000 years.


Again, I do not think you even know what a Cathedral is. Or a pyramid. Or a statue.



I'm riding this unicorn into the plaid. This. Is. Comedy. Gold. This will go down in history.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 18:52 | 3539076 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

So how long do you think they took?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:20 | 3539130 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

The largest took about 20-80 years, and only used ~20k workers (population of ancient Egypt was roughly ~200k). Derp! And there's not that many of them. Roughly 110-118, the smaller ones took a lot less time / effort (especially the early mastabas). Work that out over 2,500 years. They really were the "winter downtime" effort. 

Hint: this is why your argument for them being "MASSIVELY OPPRESSIVE AND REGRESSIVE" is kinda funny. The rest of my links are real though, you just missed the barb. (I did warn you about your liver...)

Your argument was incredibly silly, because it ignored maths and what the Egyptian empire was actually doing (I did point you to pretty pictures). The pyramids, while impressive (they really are) and using skills that really did require specialists and highly trained masons who built all those fortifications really didn't have a huge impact on the Egyptian Empire.


I'll say it again: 110-118 built in two thousand five hundred years. TIME. YOU'RE NOT GOOD AT IT. If Egypt required a massive slave population to build them, it didn't do a very good job of it. One per 227 years, and they're mostly fucking TINY. (There's a reason you only ever see three of them: the rest are really small and "meh")


You're basically comparing the monuments built over 600 years in Europe and claiming they were built in 6 years through slave labor. Didn't happen that way. They were used (largely) as economic boosters. Fuck me, look up the amount that went uncompleted. But yes. Your logic has been tragically crap throughout this exchange. And no, everything I posted was not trivia. It's called history, and it's worth reading.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:22 | 3539160 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

Okay, I said estimating 30-50 years and you say a cathedral takes 140. Blah, blah, blah. A couple hours later and now you say 20-80 years. Whatever. LOL.

Some of this was genuinely entertaining for me. What did you get out of it?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 19:49 | 3539184 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

One / 22 years, my bad, decimal place went awry. But most of them are really simple (the point being: the rest of Egypt was/is actually far more impressive than the tombs, and should be seen so.) I stand by the science stuff.

I was making a meta-point with all my wiki links. These days, it's really pointless to argue over the net. You want an answer? Google it yourself. But make sure you do it anonymously, otherwise the Google algos will simple give you answers that it "thinks" match your ideological bias. You want a better answer? Use Google Scholar. You want a nitty-gritty answer? Prepare to email three people involved in the field and learn that nothing is simple. You want an informed opinion? Find three books on the subject from different perspectives. You want an expert answer? Prepare to spend thirty years arguing about it, clawing for funding and fighting tooth and nail against all the other theorists.

We rely on simple heuristics to determine our world. Wikipedia has become one of them, and so has Google. If you don't approach it with a level of silliness and fun, it's gonna swamp you, but more importantly... you gotta know where the monkey-sphere is pushing back.




All I really wanted to do is >>>>>>>>> break the plaid.



p.s. you still proved the scientific survey btw. The more I pushed, the more you entrenched, even when I told you exactly what I was doing. It's a very dangerous, and very easily exploited human psychological weakness. Hint: it's being used constantly on you ~ look up data smog // infomation overload, then combine it with that tactic. It's part of the control mechanisms used all the time by TPTB.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 20:10 | 3539265 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture




Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:56 | 3538344 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

"Congratulations on failing the exam."

This is just so funny that I have to quote it all by itself. LOL.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:22 | 3538437 GreatUncle
GreatUncle's picture

I do .. thousands of slaves ...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:53 | 3538543 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

That's what it comes down to one way or the other. Ultimately the threat of force against innocent people is what built the pyramids. A bunch of Egyptologist who are dedicated to making the pyramids look amazing and helpful for no other reason but nationalism and tourism dollars come up with a bunch of shit to say differently but the truth is simple and obvious. 

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:22 | 3538433 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

All religions (organized or not) are evolutionary products of world-views of primitive cultures.  Some of them have been influenced by contact with ancient aliens.

As cultures evolve, so do their world views and theological views.  Perfectly 'natural'.  Not so super-natural. 

But, hey, whatever mental model and attitude gets you through the day, the night or the crisis!

Kirk out.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:29 | 3538466 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Re-post.  Hopefully this time in the correct spot...

All religions (organized or not) are evolutionary products of world-views of primitive cultures.  Some of them have been influenced by contact with ancient aliens.

As cultures evolve, so do their world views and theological views.  Perfectly 'natural'.  Not so super-natural. 

But, hey, whatever mental model and attitude gets you through the day, the night, or the crisis!

Kirk out.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:14 | 3538154 chubbar
chubbar's picture

This author doesn't think the building of the pyramids is accurately portrayed in the history books. I found this article interesting.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:26 | 3538207 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Bingo! And no, it wasn't Aliens.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:26 | 3538455 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

They were trading GRAIN FUTURES at least as far back as the 12th Dynasty.  

And if the weather sucked and income from PHYSICAL grain business didn't come through, and a farmer didn't profit via a HEDGE from the PAPYRUS grain businessess, they could always (and often did) go to the king and beg for a BAILOUT on their RENT payment.  The ancient Egyptians even had crooked tax evading CHARITABLE FOUNDATIONS setup to benefit the elite.

We're soooooo much more sophisticated and intelligent today, we can make iCrap without squatting... 

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:44 | 3538512 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

And the Sumerians' were logging who owned which cow in 21st-20th century BC. (If you missed that, that's ~3,300 BC).




Wed, 05/08/2013 - 09:59 | 3540793 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

here's a fun exercise:   flip the eye of horus 90 degrees counter-clockwise.

you will find 3 glyphs -- a tree, a woman carrying a baby in her belly, and an asp.

now travel over to the Garden (now desert) to see how original The Good Book really is.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:55 | 3538551 ebear
ebear's picture

Pyramids are soooooo last millenium...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:27 | 3537630 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

i apologize for going off topic....but the hypocrisy is too much to stomach....


"Senior officials at a top US financial regulator are discussing whether Bitcoin, the controversial cyber-currency, might fall under their regulatory remit.

Bitcoin "is for sure something we need to explore," Bart Chilton, one of the five commissioners at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), told the Financial Times. A person familiar with the CFTC's thinking said that the regulator is "seriously" examining the issue.

Said Mr Chilton: "It's not monopoly money we're talking about here -- real people can have real risk in these instruments, and we need to ensure that we protect markets and consumers, even in what at first blush appear to be 'out there' transactions."


Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:30 | 3537643 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I have been ssured by many on here that no mater what Bart or anyone else thinks, they will not actually be able to impact bitcoin. That is what makes bitcoin so special.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:06 | 3537747 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

It's good to see sarc work for a change..

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:39 | 3537673 Keynesian Mess
Keynesian Mess's picture

Once again the gubmint acting on behalf of the banksters to control libertarians under the guise of protecting the ignorant little guy from himself.

I vote that Ben allocate next month's $85B in QE to buying up all of the bitcoins in the world - that's less than $8,000 per bitcoin.  I'm happy to front-run that one.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:39 | 3537678 Thisson
Thisson's picture

No worries.  Bitcoin isn't under their authority.  If someone makes bitcoin derivatives (puts, calls, swaps, futures, etc.) then maybe those would qualify for regulation under the securities laws.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:48 | 3537697 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Are you really a dipshit?... Or do you just play one on TV?...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:38 | 3537852 dadichris
dadichris's picture

Tyranny at its finest - how can the CFTC expect to regulate something that is used outside the US by non-US citizens?  go ahead and make it illegal (just like online casinos) for US citizens to use. So be it. But leave the rest of the world alone.   

The author of Bitcoin had to remain anonymous because he/she knew that it would threaten the banking monopoly and he/she could end up dead...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:28 | 3537636 Bearwagon
Bearwagon's picture

"Well, it's a 'dog eat dog' ... eat cat, too"

AC/DC "Dog eat Dog":

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:46 | 3537641 falak pema
falak pema's picture

reposted :


It looks as if it will be an awesome battle now between Statist <Oligarchs and Global Oligarchs; lets see if they can find a way to consensus at the global level; as all consenus is impossible in US Congress. Looks like we are in for a long slog of market doldrums and tax ramp-uppings for the next five years in dormant and apathetic first world.

Obammy as chief statist oligarch along with the FED and the ECB will now pull the rug towards more taxation as will the ECB; all the while stepping on the gas of more print liquidity for the banks to stave off financial Calamity Jane; and the MIC will be boot strapped to do the same in the world's mulitple and oligarchy generated hot spots of radicalised rage.

Divide to conquer but keep that act together, as Machiavelli would say! 

Thats the compromise :  "we will feed the public investment trough and try and restrain the cave in of social safety net all the while we ask the FED to prime the private markets; now totally subservient to OUR central bank controlled wishes. We as big government will now run the FIRE market via the FED and keep the radicals at bay with our military acumen." 

Obammy now can impose on the private oligarchs more pain. 

As he can say : "its that or its cataclysm; and the last five years have shown we have fewer options with every day that passes!"

Will the first world sheeple resist such an awesome reset that is now plain to see to all?                                     Awesome question on both sides of the first world pond!

What will the global oligarchs say to that? Their agenda is not that of Obammy! Or even Mutti's more "Deutsch" centric version.

They don't have much latitude as they caused the problem in first place and Paulson aggravated it to save them. As, if and when the fiat pump stops they lose all, in deflationary fall from oligarchically levitated beatitude, under austerity God's angry call to reality.

Pray and hope oligarchs of both camps, and we sheeple along with them, that you (the splintered oligarchs) don't break the market beyond redemption by thieving each other to point of no return; and that the sun also rises one day to real economic growth, once the fiat cancer has abated;

but when...? 

ZH has always said that eventuality is IMPOSSIBLE...reset inevitable, all the more acute as time flows by.

What ZH had not integrated in its analysis, in the 2009/2011 period that forged its libertarian bias as we have all perceived, is the inevitability of return of big state, the stifling of the market and more central planning to starve the private oligarchy beast and feed the statist one on taxation. To their evident credit is the fact that this awesome, global CB print to infinity of Krugmanist "aliens to the rescue" dimensions is a first time bet of incalculable magnitude. Only time will tell. 

This all began wiith QE/ZIRP and the ECB followed suit caught in the same financial vice. But the tax increase option, BAIL INS instead of just BAIL OUTS,  was not possible in the first Obama presidency. He didn't have the congressional backing then, neither did the EU realise the private to public socialised debt spiral that ensued like a forest fire in Club Med. 

This financial throttling of the banks and their backers by big state should have happened as of 2009 with Obammy election. On both sides of the pond. But I guess he didn't have the bullets to fight the Paulson/GWB cabal legacy. He didn't want to end up like Lincoln...and JFK.

Mutti/Sarko/Brown didn't have the guts nor the ethical honesty in Europe to take on the CIty clowns either.

But I think the penny has now dropped. Just my take BTW. Remember Politics is about REAL options NOT textbook ideology in our western world of democracy, even if this precious construct is fast becoming a fading mirage today.

The world now has a choice between the frying pan of statism or more fire of oligarchy mayhem.

Sisyphus we stay as neither is resolution.


Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:32 | 3537644 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

"Finally, for those who find themselves at the top of these two pyramids, we suggest you panic":


Ah come's the top of the pyramid that's doing the pillaging. It's anybody below that group that needs to panic.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:36 | 3537662 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

There is no more left to pillage below the top, that would meaningfully preserve the system. In fact, more and more welfare (Obamafones) has to be handed down to the lower and "middle" classes to preserve social stability.

The only impactful "wealth redistribution" now left is that at the very top echelons.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:41 | 3537682 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I think my neighbor with the lexus truck still has some meat on the bone.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:46 | 3537693 Abraxas
Abraxas's picture

Fucker! He should donate it to you together with his trophy wife in the name of equality. I'll go ask for my portion.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:14 | 3537801 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

"The only impactful "wealth redistribution" now left is that at the very top echelons..."


I'm taking that to mean that you consider anyone with a 401K to be in the category of "upper echelon" [whereby you're prolly right]...

IMHO ~ there are only two "wealth re-distributions" left [&, of course, I'm ONLY referring to wealth re-distributions that are contained within WESTERN PAPER BANKING society & exclude more REAL (& MACRO) distributions, such as east~west gold bullion migrations]...


- confiscations of 401K's

- MOAR bank consolidations

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:42 | 3537686 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

If you're right then things will be interesting, but it's my understanding that in the Cyprus blueprint the oligarchs at the top got out while everybody below them was left holding the bag.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:16 | 3537788 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

And that's the rub...,

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:31 | 3537837 Scisco
Scisco's picture

What will be interesting to see if they are able to from an agreement or will they just devour each other.


Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:43 | 3537687 Going Loco
Going Loco's picture

I fall within the top slice of the first pyramid, one of the half percent. This is because my parents and I have always followed a self-imposed rule to live within our means and incur only self-liquidating debt. I suppose I am now one of the targets. Clearly I should join the rest of the population, the poor downtrodden masses, who shoulder the burden of massive government debts. I should have spent more than I made, and I should have borrowed to pay for automobiles and vacations. The trouble is that if you exterminate the wealth of people like me (and transferring it to profligate governments will surely exterminate it) there will be no private capital for investment. The only capital will be funny money printed by governments and invested by bureaucrats. That is not going to work out well.

It seems to me the world is hell bent on driving everyone into poverty.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:09 | 3537759 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Ultimately there can be only one leader and we shall all be on our knees before him. Poverty is the required condition that ensures the compliance that dependency breeds.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:09 | 3537761 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

"There is no more left to pillage below the top, that would meaningfully preserve the system."

One might therefore surmise that the rich being "charitable" is more than an act of kindness.  It's also an act of prudent self-preservation.  A form of hedging their bets, in case laws and religion are not enough.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 16:45 | 3537812 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture


Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:28 | 3537825 ekm
ekm's picture


As I've been saying over and over: This is elite infighting, pure and simple.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:16 | 3537943 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture


As I've been saying over and over: When it becomes JEW vs. JEW... All hilarity ensues...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:17 | 3538168 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

It has been Jew versus Jew for the past three thousand years.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:36 | 3538259 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Not in ALL parts of the world...


Although the 'Hitler Channel' [aka 'History Channel']... Tried to do this story where they created a chronology of all the peoples OTHER than 'Christopher Columbus' who possibly voyaged to America before his recorded travels...

Not that it was unwarranted... But the most laughable thing about the 120 minute documentary was the cherry at the top... Which was... The the FIRST discoverers of America, timeline wise, were probably Hebrew tribes who:

- left Jerusalem at the time of the 2nd sacking of King Solomons Temple

- journeyed... EASILY, I MIGHT ADD, by boat through the Persian Gulf, Straits of Hormuz, Indian Ocean, Pacific Ocean, then arrived on the western coast of the North American continent, migrated eastward, & eventually became the 'Cherokee Indian' tribe [not to mention that this sect which was interviewed for this story, represented less than 1% of the Cherokee Nation of tribes & is not even recognized from within]...

- That doesn't stop matters though... They went on to conscript a jewish geneticist [a hook nosed beaker named Greenspan], to authenticate the fact that JEWS DISCOVERED AMERICA...

I shit you not...

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:45 | 3538303 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

The only thing the elite are infighting over right now are market orders on SPY.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 15:19 | 3538415 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Similar to Mormon doctrine, the founders of Mormonism being or early becoming Freemasons and occultists.

Romney, a mainstream Mormon, but Mormonism by many Christians considered a false Christian cult religion, probably did not help much in election against pretender Obummer.

Tue, 06/04/2013 - 00:49 | 3622691 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

long copper wire?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:51 | 3537883 MassOpiate
MassOpiate's picture

I've done tapped all my credit lines at 21% interest rates to buy big screen TVs and boomin sound systems.  Once I get a job and get off unemployment I may have something to be pillaged . . .

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 13:44 | 3538004 Blano
Blano's picture

As a newer resident of the Dallas/Fort Worth area, gotta disagree with you on that one Tyler(s).  Seems like plenty left here still.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:39 | 3537675 astoriajoe
astoriajoe's picture


those at the top can afford to have a boating accident of sufficient severity to make it effective and then retrieve the loot in whatever the next regime is.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:56 | 3537897 DosZap
DosZap's picture

"Finally, for those who find themselves at the top of these two pyramids, we suggest you panic":


Ah come's the top of the pyramid that's doing the pillaging. It's anybody below that group that needs to panic.

Really, 100k-to 1 million?,hell that equals hundreds of thousands of Americans retired, and saved their butt off, and paid for everything, = no debt.Your next door neighbors of most on here are worth easily that, The top bracket is the one's in extreme danger.

In order to really be totally independent and do whatever you mostly could ever want,that figure is 100 million.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 14:15 | 3538157 Steaming_Wookie_Doo
Steaming_Wookie_Doo's picture

Correct, Dr.

Of course, we are meant to focus on flashy oligarchs, especially from villainous former adversaries. No talk of "freeing" capital from Mrs. Battenberg-Windsor, any Rockefeller Trust, Rothschilds, any other worthless royalty, etc. Those handful of folks have trillions. Let's not forget The Vatican. And we're not talking about all of the black funding going on for spy agencies or other aspects of the Breakaway Civilization. 

And portraying this in some light where Hopey McChange or any other talking head looks like they're taking from the rich, not the case. They'd be aired out faster than a topless car ride in kingpins will be hit on this operation.


Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:31 | 3537646 WHATDIFFERENCED...

All of this stash comes to light only because they are desperate for cash. Why does "the meek shall inherit the earth" keep ringing in my ears?

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:58 | 3537722 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

The meek shall inherit the earth only if they rise up with pitchforks and torches and go after and hang theose that have pillaged and raped for so  long with impunity.....  

Is it going to happen?   Not likely IMO.   The 'non-meek' have law enforcement at their beck and call.  Look at how OWS was treated and they were a bunch odf unorganized types simply pointing out that there was a problem. Maybe I'm wrong and there will be a massive 'Arab Spring' all over but looking at DHS, Fema camps and billions of bullets - along with an all too willing to go along military.....  things are going to have to get a LOT worse before the proles leave their comfy couches.  

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 11:36 | 3537652 IamtheREALmario
IamtheREALmario's picture

JMHO ... it is the creation of fiat money and the banking monopoly that has allowed the creation of a class of elitist billionaires who add nothing of value to the world. Why would Russia be any different? I mean really .. here in the US, does Mitt Romney or Al Gore add anything of value? lol ... a waste of protoplasm.

In the world of fiat fraud it is the corrupting and corruptable who flourish (and they fear the loss of what they have taken more than anything .. and that is what is determining our future... that fear.). Those with any sense of real purpose and desire to contribute to the world through their labor and creativity are only desired as slaves by those who crave power at any cost.

Tue, 05/07/2013 - 12:53 | 3537888 forwardho
forwardho's picture

M, Since the time of the pharos there have been those "Elitist" who with inside connections, have enriched themselves at the expence of the peons.

Greed and ambition are human traits. They are a universal part of man.

There has been and always will be a class of elites who bathe in asses milk while the commoners eat grass.

Enlightened age.... When?

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!