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Guest Post: The New European Revolt

Tyler Durden's picture


Originally posted at Populyst blog,

Some young Europeans have given up on change. They just want to leave.

One of the main benefits of forecasts based on demographics is the fact that they can be more precise and therefore more reliable than others. For example, the number of people aged 40 in the United States twenty years from now is roughly the same number of people aged 20 today, minus premature deaths plus new immigrants. A prediction that enjoys a similar inevitability is that welfare programs as currently defined will certainly be unaffordable a few years from now, given the aging of the population and concomitant rising dependency ratio.

An expensive legacy.

An expensive legacy.

It is a fair bet that one way or another, the current generation of young people will be unwilling and/or unable to pay for Social Security and Medicare as they presently stand. Of course, Western Europe has the same problem and President Hollande of France recently got a whiff of what is coming from an open letter addressed to him by a 20-year old student named Clara G.

In summary, Clara does not believe it fair that she and her generation should be saddled with the enormous debt accumulated by Mr. Hollande’s generation. As a remedy, she is considering leaving France for friendlier pastures. She says she is not alone and cites a recent poll by Viavoice which found that a shocking 50% of French people aged 18-34 wish to leave France. Forty-five years after the upheavals of Mai 68, half of the young of France are more interested in exile than in change.

Addressing the President directly, she writes:

“This will probably shock you, but it is mainly for fiscal reasons,… simply because I do not feel like working all my life to pay taxes, a large part of which will only service the 1.9 trillion Euros of debt that your generation has kindly left us. If these borrowings had at least been invested to prepare the future of the country, if I was getting a small benefit from them, it would not be a problem for me to help repay them. But this debt only helped your generation live above its means, and assure itself a generous social safety net which I will not have.




My labor and my taxes will also pay for your generation’s retirement which you did not bother to plan, and for all the health and support expenses incurred by the elderly who in less than twenty years will be a majority of the population. So what will be left for me to live and to raise my children?




And, if by some improbable miracle, I managed to make a lot of money, I know already that not only will I be paying most of it in taxes, but I will also endure the general reproach of my compatriots and your personal disdain.


This is why, Mr. President, I am thinking of leaving France. And why your [government] should be less worried about the dangers of immigration and more concerned with the threats of emigration by the youth of this country. Where would I go? Perhaps to Germany, a country that you frequently disparage but which looks like a confident country. Or perhaps further, to Canada or Australia. Or to a developing country. To Africa, why not?”

But not to the United States, Clara?

She continues:

“Yes, I want to go to a country where there is growth, where wages are rising, where being rich is not a deadly sin, a country in short where the individual and the society have confidence that tomorrow will be brighter than today.”

I wrote recently that developed nations with deteriorating demographics will have a big problem if large taxpayers decided to move away to lower tax jurisdictions. Clara’s letter suggests that an exodus by the young would be just as damaging, indeed probably more damaging.


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Fri, 05/10/2013 - 20:45 | 3550325 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

      Moar gargoyles...

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:29 | 3550367 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

"Clara does not believe it fair that she and her generation should be saddled with the enormous debt accumulated by Mr. Hollande’s generation."

"Previous generations were also resistant, Clara, but in the end, you too will succumb to the calling to sacrifice your ideals for the allure of two jobs, fewer luxuries, a few children...a line of credit...true love...You're getting sleepy, Clara, very sleepy..."

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:52 | 3550529 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"you too will succumb to the calling to sacrifice your ideals for the allure of two jobs"

Having 3 jobs is uniquely American.  America.  Fuck Yeah!

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:28 | 3550621 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

I thought having no job and collecting benefits from the state was the New American Normal.

Do you have an Obama phone? No? Then there's something definitely wrong with you. Hey loser get with the program.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 23:23 | 3550716 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Every phone now is an Obama phone in that he can listen in.  Fuck the 4th Amendment!

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 02:56 | 3550896 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Not in Russia

in USSR, you have freedom from Americans

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 03:13 | 3550900 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Some sage advice for Clara, and other young ladies:

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 05:50 | 3551013 negative rates
negative rates's picture

She won't be coming here soon, she wanted both growth and higher wages. Minimum wage in France is $14/hr, and the only growth in the states is paper growth dependant on the emeriging mkts.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:13 | 3550781 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

As soon as you can get an iPhone Obama phone, I'm quitting my job and picking up a hobby. I'm leaning toward Heroin.

Ill be riding the Horse, baby!

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 07:50 | 3551088 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

Make sure your horse has a name, otherwise you might end up in the desert.

No cell reception in the desert.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 14:10 | 3551699 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

I'll try to shoot on Sunday, if I don't get to damn depressed...

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 23:26 | 3550723 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

How are young Americans going to support us and pay off our debts when we've sent all their jobs to China?


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:15 | 3550784 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Why it sounds like you think more than 3 months ahead; no .gov or Wall Street job for you, SO0.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 09:41 | 3551205 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

We won't. I hope you were one of the smarters ones in your generation and saved for retirement.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 13:58 | 3551681 koncaswatch
koncaswatch's picture

I did... but not quite enough to overcome uncles Alan and Ben's money debasement program. I hope the cat food tastes better in the future.  

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 08:49 | 3551154 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

I find it amusing that these young rebels are raised, fed, clothed, and educated at someone else's expense then suddenly discover the system is all wrong  as soon as they are expected to give something back.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 09:42 | 3551209 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

Yeah, it's not like their parents and other family members are paying taxes to support the system. /sarcasm.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 13:31 | 3551616 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

They didn't ask to be born. The burden of life was thrust upon them the same as it was for everyone. Children can't consent to how they are raised and at whose expense - that decision is rightly or wrongly made for them by their caretakers. They are in no way responsible for the decisions made for them and under no obligation to pay back the expense incurred in the rearing of them. If they reach the age of their majority and look around them and decide that the debts incurred in their name and without their consent are insupportable they are going to do something about it. 

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 20:55 | 3550372 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Europe: the world's largest outdoor museum

We can learn a lot from Europe.  Lessons include:

1) This is what you get when you elect Socialists.  Even the Nazi's were Socialists: National Socialists...

2) Allow uncontrolled immigration, you will get France...

3) Europe claims low crime rates, this is false.

4) Many of the smart kids (Clara) want to leave, not good!

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:13 | 3550419 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I believe the only "learning" going on will be the countries trying to emulate the American tax plan....  AKA "Hotel California" you can check out, but you can never leave

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:41 | 3550493 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I believe that you are correct.  How regretable that is, that .gov would chase us to the ends of the Earth for MOAR!

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:53 | 3550531 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

.gov is a cover for the oligarchs.  If we take away .gov, we are left with .oligarch.  

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:55 | 3550538 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Is .oli taken yet?

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 23:26 | 3550722 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Cheney took it.  But it's available on GoDaddy for one shot in the face with Cheneyshot.  And you get Gitmo'd and don't get to ask any questions.  But you get to be ambassador to Libya.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 09:44 | 3551210 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Cheney tried to take it

We're not "in control" of any of these places

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 09:00 | 3551167 psychobilly
psychobilly's picture

".gov is a cover for the oligarchs.  If we take away .gov, we are left with .oligarch."  

If we take away .gov, we are left with .oligarch without the power -- under color of "the law" -- to steal from people and otherwise force them into doing things that are against their interests.

What's worse: .gov always attracts the worst, mentally deranged scum imaginable because no mentally healthy person desires to rule over others.  The worst of the worst will excel at demogoguery, deceit and false promises of free lunches, and make it to the top of the greasy pole known as .gov.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 23:08 | 3550689 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Socialists are the cultural descendants of the hunter-gatherer culture, the National Socialists are the cultural descendants of the pharaonic culture. The main differences between them is that the pharaonic culture had plant and animal husbandry, greater reliance on technology, and rudimentary individual property rights.

Both believed that the collective - tribe for the socialists, State for the National Socialists - was sovereign.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 02:15 | 3550867 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

socialism works for small societies in a family unit.

In large socieities like USA, no ism works well.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 09:45 | 3551211 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

Which societies did socialism work in?

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 11:11 | 3551311 e-recep
e-recep's picture

why is the united states "united" again?

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 06:22 | 3551029 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

"4) Many of the smart kids (Clara) want to leave, not good!"


Not good for Europe, but great for the countries that welcome them in.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 17:24 | 3552114 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

The Nazi party was eminently right-wing populist/nationalist, and frontally opposed to socialism/communism: "The party was created as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism." - (from: Otis C. Mitchell. Hitler's Stormtroopers and the Attack on the German Republic, 1919–1933. Jefferson, North Carolina, USA: McFarland & Company, Inc., 2008. p. 47.)

History: learn it.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 23:42 | 3552912 Waffen
Waffen's picture

This, look, national socialism was a form of government to serve its folk. A nation in this sense was its people.

I would be ok with socialism if it existed to serve and support people genetically like myself who have a common goal, values, principles and genetics.

However in Amerca we have non of that now in America.

"Diversity is a strength," is one of those ridiculously stupid concepts repeated enough that people will believe it.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:11 | 3554078 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture


Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:14 | 3550425 Element
Element's picture

What she describes sounds a lot like what might be described as a DEPRESSION.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 20:39 | 3550329 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture

They're only one problem for Clara: where the hell do you move to. Every place is like France.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 20:46 | 3550346 suicidalpsychologist
suicidalpsychologist's picture

There is massive emigration of french youth in their 20s/30s to north america (quebec/canada) while millions of third worlders from africa and the middle east are poured constantly into the country by cynical elites.  Unemployment is already alarming, yet the equivalent of 400 to 500 000 more third worlders are imported into france every single year.

As most europeans are atheists who dont reproduce anymore , whole europe will probably become muslim in a century. Russia has lots of chinese and moslems on its borders outnumbering its own population; I predict whole eurasia will become a sino muslim alliance, and will probably take over australia and africa.

When you dont have kids anymore, you get replaced by those who still bother reproducing. It's as simple as that.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 20:54 | 3550369 A Middle Child ...
A Middle Child of History's picture

Unfortunately, those having hordes of kids are overwhelmingly represented by those who are too retarded to understand how to use birth control. We are all doomed.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:03 | 3550380 suicidalpsychologist
suicidalpsychologist's picture

It s a bit more complicated than that; those third worlders in fact willingly outnumber the natives with the sole and only purpose to replace them. It s all part of the plan ; muslims wether they re black or arab want their revenge against the old white dying rotten man, the oppressor, the esclavagist , colon etc. Add to that atheist , depressed, suicidal old white people who hate themselves, their roots, and see patriotism as nazism are giving up on having/raising kids and leaving the country willingly to these third worlders. The big loser is indeed the poor white youth who s getting raped by both their elders and the invaders imported by them. The richest socialo communist -so called hippies who became millionaires in the "30 glorieuses / golden era" that followed ww2 actually sold their countries to the third world, while living themselves far away from all the crap they ve imported and created. They protect their own kids when they have any puting them in nice neighborhoods, while the white middle and lower social classes are flooded and beaten into submission by the muslims "immigrants".

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:07 | 3550399 nobita
nobita's picture

heh. Im white, atheist, depressed and suicidal. But I have a kid! 



Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:17 | 3550414 suicidalpsychologist
suicidalpsychologist's picture

Well, you become a depressed atheist who doesnt even know why he gave birth to a kid only AFTER abandoning Christianity, or having been led to abandon it by your own parents/grandparents. So it's only a matter of going back to your roots to give a new meaning to your existence.

Back on subject; I was born in france of german parents and lived there for 26 years before moving to french canada, so I know quite a bit on the matter. France is toast; so are italy, spain, belgium, germany; most of their youth are from the middle east or black africa. Old europe is dying slowly but surely. Abandoning Christianism to convert to atheism which in itself is a form of belief system -a nihilistic one; consum, buy, destroy, dominate, but dont reproduce "enjoy life ot its fullest without thinking of the consequencies"- led them to stop reproducing so ultimately they re disapearing. I see the same trend developing in north america, with the US becoming more and more like any european socialist shithole; these ideas traveled over the ocean to corrupt the minds of your own elites. Big cities full of cynical, self hating capitalist hippies abusing everything and leaving nothing behind them but despair and ruins, which will benefit to the third world moving north.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:20 | 3550445 nobita
nobita's picture

My parents did try (halfheartedly) to raise me christian. 

But my people value critical thinking above anything. It is the most important skill a human can have, and thus I do not not believe in God. Because it is a fairy tale.

And I know why I had a kid. Because I wanted to and I am happy I did.

He is great, the joy of my life. 

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:33 | 3550477 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Nice dialog, + 1 all the way up.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:40 | 3550489 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

What religion am I? I believe in a higher power. I believe we are all here for a reason. I believe when our time is done here, something else happens after. I have faith that the people I love, I will see again in the afterlife.

I have no fuckin clue who is running the show, and why they allow so much fucked up shit to take place. I believe that most people who subscribe to an organzed religion have every right to do so, but deep down I think they are deluded. Whoever is up there has also made it clear that I am on my own and it's up to me to look after myself and my own.

What am I considered?

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:44 | 3550502 nobita
nobita's picture

No you are not. You are just not religious. Maybe you can be called spiritual?

I obviously do not know if there is a God or not, but I am 100% sure all religion is bullshit so I call myself atheist for lack of a better word.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:55 | 3550536 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"I obviously do not know if there is a God or not..."

"But my people value critical thinking above anything. It is the most important skill a human can have, and thus I do not not believe in God. Because it is a fairy tale."

Can someone unwind this for me?

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:57 | 3550545 nobita
nobita's picture

I meant religion is too unlikely to be true. No idea if there is a God or not.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:32 | 3550625 nmewn
nmewn's picture

What religion is unlikely to be true?

Sounds like you have more of an issue with a former religion, than whether God exists.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:39 | 3550640 nobita
nobita's picture

Dude. All of them. Which religion do you find plausible?

I have issues with with every single religion I have come across and those I have only read about. None of them make any sense at all.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 23:19 | 3550708 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The one I find most plausible is the one that does not force conversion to it by government decree or tax.

"None of them make any sense at all."

Well, I don't know what you've been exposed to but most religions (outside of a few) rest on the simple things of observable values, good & evil, right & wrong, admiration & disdain.

You can take them or leave them as they are without denigrating them all.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 01:22 | 3550837 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Zero Hedge puts up a notice about race & religion & the next thing you know... ENTIRE threads talk about God & religion...


U people are fucking hilarious...

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 08:35 | 3551141 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well it certainly seems people have been wanting to talk about it...but for whatever reason have not...a lot of pent up thoughts on the subject.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 10:01 | 3551217 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It is impossible to make fucking omlettes without breaking eggs...


This new policy is utter horseshit & goes completely against the spirit of FIGHT CLUB...

But, I suppose it's inevitable... ZH has become HuffPo... It's become a Yahoo Chat room... This is a solid indication that things, across the board [not just ZH], are going to get a whole lot worse before they ever get better... How do I know? I'll tell you...

- Because everytime a thread now comes on criticizing CISPA, it'll be two faced hypocrisy...

- Trying to criticize Fed policy, or unelected Eurocrats?... Hypocrisy? [because how does using watered down verbage in comments alter the list of shareholders of the US [non]Federal [non]Reserve?...

- BANNING SHORT SELLING... I'm going to laugh my ass off now, when a thread appears that tries to make the case that 'BANNING' something improves things...

- I suppose there will no longer be any reportages on any country [not to be named] attacking Syria [because that would engender talks about the relative behavior of the perps]...

- Rejoice everyone!... Because of this new YOU ARE YOUR KHAKIS policy... 'Apartheid' has been whipped... It no longer exists [because we don't talk about it]...

- Mayor Bloomberg shall from here forward be referred to as 'His Honor'...

- FOMC meetings, minutes, or motivations, will never be discussed... It is now 'officially' the POV, [within this forum], that the actual way the FED 'prints money' is because the Indiana limestone of the Marriner Eccles building has magical 'Luciferian' powers... The money just prints itself... Weird...

- Inflation, or deflation... are simply phenomenon which are caused when a faceless limestone edifice goes berzerk...


Where does that leave us?... Well ~ I guess we have a nice travelogue [with Simon Black]... & we can all give our thumbs up & thumbs down on Santelli/Leisman debates [so be sure to tune in to CNBC every day]... Otherwise ~ Donate all your gold to the Rothschild philanthropic society & BTFD...

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 11:15 | 3551319 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I have to agree.

But its their place, they make the rules, whether or not they are enforced evenly across the spectrum of viewpoints will be something to watch for.

I may not agree with everything you say but I defend your right to say it and have not, nor will I ever report anyone, while at the same time realizing this isn't a public street corner...its Tyler's front porch & he can tell anyone to get off it for any reason or no reason at all.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 12:36 | 3551493 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I have absolutely no arguments with YOUR assessment either...


ZH... I'd describe... as a 'storefront'...

If I'm a shopkeeper or a merchant [or even a flippin ROCK BAND], I can pick & choose if I want to DENY service to some customers... At the end of the day, I HOPE I know my clients [& potential clients] well enough to judge the balance between my BRAND & my PROFIT MARGINS...

It's hard to predict which side of a football a raindrop is going to slide down...

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 09:47 | 3551212 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

last time I checked, you have some pretty strong "belief systems"

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 20:17 | 3552372 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

where is this notice?

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 05:11 | 3550986 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

From the Mahabarata:

Dharma: What is heavier than earth, higher than heavens,
faster than the wind and more numerous than straws?

Yudhishthira: One's mother is heavier than the earth; one's father is higher than the mountains. The mind is faster than wind and our worries are more numerous than straws.

Dharma: Who is the friend of a traveler? Who is the friend
of one who is ill and one who is dying?

Yudhishthira: The friend of a traveler is his companion. The physician is the friend
of one who is sick and a dying man's friend is charity.

Dharma: What is that which, when renounced, makes one lovable?
What is that which is renounced makes happy and wealthy?

Yudhishthira: Pride, if renounced makes one lovable; by renouncing desire one becomes wealthy; and to renounce avarice is to obtain happiness.

Dharma: What enemy is invincible? What constitutes an incurable
disease? What sort of man is noble and what sort is ignoble?

Yudhishthira: Anger is the invincible enemy. Covetousness constitutes a disease that is incurable. He is noble who desires the well-being of all creatures, and he is
ignoble who is without mercy.

Dharma: Who is truly happy? What is the greatest wonder?
What is the path? And what is the news?

Yudhishthira: He who has no debts is truly happy. Day after day countless people die.  Yet the living wish to live forever. O Lord, what can be a greater wonder? Argument leads to no certain conclusion, the Srutis are different from one another; there is not even one Rishi whose opinion can be accepted by all; the truth about Dharma and duty is hid in caves of our heart: therefore, that alone is the path along which the great have trod. This world full of ignorance is like a pan. The sun is fire, the days and nights are fuel. The months and the seasons constitute the wooden ladle. Time is the cook that is cooking all creatures in that pan (with such aids); this is the news.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 10:04 | 3551231 DrewJackson
DrewJackson's picture

Does the big boom and starting from microbes and shit make sense?  Where did it all come from?  The story of life  developing on planet Earth does not make sense - science or religion.   This is where faith comes in....  You may choose where to place it.




Sat, 05/11/2013 - 10:04 | 3551232 DrewJackson
DrewJackson's picture

Does the big boom and starting from microbes and shit make sense?  Where did it all come from?  The story of life  developing on planet Earth does not make sense - science or religion.   This is where faith comes in....  You may choose where to place it.




Sat, 05/11/2013 - 06:05 | 3551018 B2u
B2u's picture

Religion?  Religions are for religous people.  I am a follower of Jesus Christ.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:35 | 3550633 Matt
Matt's picture

Two dimensional grid: Gnostic (claims to KNOW the absolute truth) and Agnostic (Does not KNOW any absolute truth) as column, and Theist (believes in some form of diety) or Atheist (does not believe in any deity) as Rows.

Nobita sounds like Agnostic Atheist, while Fonzanoon sounds like a Agnostic Theist.

A Gnostic Theist is someone who claims to not only believe in a / multiple gods, but to KNOW absolutely that it is true. A Gnostic Atheist is someone who claims to KNOW, absolutely, that there is no god.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 23:01 | 3550673 nmewn
nmewn's picture

She said she doesn't believe in God (one assumes the christian God, the one most villified, as is the current fashion) saying, its all a fairy tale...yet its unsupported, meaning a belief (that is faith, unsupported by touch or sight) on her part, through critical thinking.


The great thing about living where we live is no one loses their head over their beliefs ;-)

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:01 | 3550767 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

The recent vilification of the Christian God recently has been a fascination to me. Perhaps the NWO sees devout Christianity as an impediment to their plans. Any areas of cohesion (boy scouts, bible study groups, raw milk producers) must be attacked. Then, on the other hand, Muslims seemed to be given carte Blanche which seems quite strange given the fact this doesn't seem to be in harmony with the feminist manifesto. The only possible conclusion I can glean from this is they see the Muslims as being more powerful and will use them to defeat the Christians. I guess the joke will be on them in the end when fundimentalist Islam bumps head with cerebral socialist ivory tower academia. Can't imagine the outcome.


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 01:04 | 3550824 filament
filament's picture

Truly.  I love hearing people bitch about Christianity, because well, having to live by standards is tough.  But now that Europe has gone full secular, we get to sit back and watch what believing in nothing but yourself gets you.

Pass the popcorn.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 03:01 | 3550904 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Have you been to Europe?

Bunch of huge churches as the largest building structures everywhere for hundreds of years.

Proof that church spent the money on themselves.


In russia and  China, government buildings are the largest.


In USA, banks buildings are the tallest.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 03:37 | 3550923 filament
filament's picture

Yes.  Those churches are mostly empty now.  Employed a lot of people when they were being built. That thing called the renaissance. Provided many social functions (read charity) that the church has subsequently abdicated to the socialists, who now have the biggest buildings.

The churches never let people retire in their 50's.  And local charity was much harder to scam.  So overall, more efficient use of the same amount of bureaucracy.

Tell me the government isn't spending FAR more on itself.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 03:39 | 3550925 filament
filament's picture

By the way, loved your book.  try skipping the LSD next time.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 03:42 | 3550929 filament
filament's picture

Oh yeah, and all my relatives there have no kids.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 04:50 | 3550968 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

That thing called the renaissance.


What does this mean ?

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 05:09 | 3550982 filament
filament's picture

Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Raffael, Bernini etc, etc. 

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 04:51 | 3550970 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

In Europe Banks are bigger than Churches - go to London or Frankfurt.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 08:59 | 3551166 Zero-risk bias
Zero-risk bias's picture

I could miss the wood for the trees. I guess building places of worship and castles are a good way to drain excess liquidity. I'd agree 'secular' doesn't adequately describe belief/delusion in the E.U, it does justly describes the lack of values or convictions held by many Europeans. Despite gargantuan cathedrals and relics of former civilisation people forget.

I was amazed by Japanese cities how all kinds of architecture is slotted together. Shrines and gardens viewed from office towers and corporations, urban communities nestled in mountanous terrain. Ultimately, I take from it that there is something to learn from both East and West.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 09:34 | 3551197 nmewn
nmewn's picture


"The recent vilification of the Christian God recently has been a fascination to me. Perhaps the NWO sees devout Christianity as an impediment to their plans."

Could be.

Personally, I tend to think its more of varying interests coalescing, giving the appearance of a broad front against Him. You have the statists (usually socialist/progressive) who desire to supplant the christian religion with the state. You have radical islamists (and their hangers on) who believe in forced conversion to their faith. You have atheists/agnostics who attack any religion but are most vociferous about christianity, apparently, in the belief that to attack any other (as boldly and loudly) opens them up to criticism as being a razzzist.

You also have people who were once devout, succumbing to things worldly, of greed, of power, of lust and wish to cast off these associations in what they know are bad, that is, evil. Perfectly human but they know in their heart its true.

We've all been there ;-)

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 12:24 | 3551479 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

You may be right. Perhaps my view is too myopic and I need to back up a bit. However, I do think there is even more involved. This morning I walked into the chicken coop to a bloody mess. My lead hen ( Atila the Hen) had been recently injured and was not up to her usual bulling ways. I guess the rest of the flock decided it was a prime opportunity for some revenge and believe me they didn't serve it up cold. Even the weakest was peaking her. I see this as analogous to what's happening to Christianity today.

I see what you see as well. Many getting sucked into worldliness. Personally I believe this is either they were never truly faithful and only wore the trappings of their supposed faith or it's simply dispair and religion can no longer provide sanctuary. There is hope for the latter.


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 17:53 | 3552153 nmewn
nmewn's picture see it in nature all the time...your Attila the Hen analogy. The dominant one goes down and thats the opportunity for the "less thans" to jump.

Even that act is to establish another dominant, another Alpha, among the survivors.

Turning back to religion, some just went to church because its what was was, for them, a more communal/social event than trying to understand and live their life accordingly. And it certainly doesn't help when the "shepherds" are shown to be something other than pious...most people can't wrap their heads around the fact that they are human too...subject to the same emotions & temptations the flock is.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 21:14 | 3552512 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

The sad part is Christianity had been offered up as an alternative to the never ending warring factions of a tribalistic society. It was to be a new approach loving ones neighbor rather than dominating or killing him. Now Christianity itself is under attack, it's churchs in all denominations ladened with scandals and flight of members. The only bright spot is Africa where it appears to be flourishing, but the persecution of Christians by Islamic militants is truly horrifying. In the 1990s when i belonged to a church, I helped raise money to provide a well pump for our sister church in Uganda. We ended up having to raise the money again because when they were installing it Islamists stole it and killed several parishioners in the process. I can't imagine was courage it takes to face those horrors daily from people that hate you for your faith. Then I would watch the " country club" members in my church who seemed to have no care in the world except get heartily pissed off if someone sat in their regular seat at Mass. I've seen power hungry groups destroy a church. I've seen petty place seeking and blatant back stabbing... all things not remotely Christian. Out of the 3 churchs I was a member, all three imploded from internal rot. I didn't attend a fourth not wanting to witness the event again. I call myself a Christian as a follower of the teachings of Christ but would never subject myself to the endless stream of hypocrisy I witnessed in churchs.


Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:45 | 3550505 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I would consider you in the same boat as many of us.  Pleased to have you with us, you seem a very decent sort.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:16 | 3550539 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Thanks, glad to be in good company. I will give you a quick tid bit.

I was born catholic. Had a shitty childhood, so when I bailed on catholicism at an early age, no one cared.

Fast forward to 4 years ago. My daughter is born. My family hits me with the full court press. I need to get her baptised. I must get her baptised. I politely told them that I appreciated their opinion, but would just raise her to be a good and decent human being, and if she decided on her own to attach herself to a particular religion, I would support her.

One of my closest family, who I would take a bullet for, pulls me aside. She is college educated and very successful. She has a functioning brain. She tells me that "If you don't get her baptised, and she passes away, she won't be allowed into heaven".

So I ask her, "If someone hurts my daughter and it costs her her life, and I find that person, and kill him, and it turns out he was baptised...he get's into heaven and she does not?"

Her answer...."as I understand it...yes". I don't know if she is right or wrong in the context of the rules of catholocism...but I know she subscribes to something that I consider insane,


Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:24 | 3550614 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Fonz that was truly a sad story. I hope you can find it in youself not to hate your family member for dumping such inappropriate guilt on you. I have seen Catholics do this to so many people and honestly I think it comes from a deep fear arising from years of catechism and indoctrination. I went to caholic grade school, high school and college so I've had a lot of exposure. I'm a lukewarm Anglican and haven't been to church in years finding more spirituality outside the church than in. My parents baptized me but if they hadn't I wouldn't seek to do it. I will not allow another's fear dictate my actions and I feel sorry for them. They have no solace that true freedom brings and must be always vigilant or they may cast out. The pressures must be incredible. Karl Marx did have a point the religion is the opiate of the people. I have seen some truly use it as a drug and won't rest until you are under it's influence as well.


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 03:20 | 3550913 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Tyler Tyler look... He's making disparaging remarks about 'Catholics'!...

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 09:36 | 3551199 nmewn
nmewn's picture


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 08:26 | 3551128 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

Yes, that is quite right. You don't get into heaven on merit. Nobody is good enough, not even saints. You get in by pull.

See the story of Jesus crucified between 2 thieves. One curses Him, the other calls Him master. Jesus turns to the one who calls him Master and says "You will be with me in Heaven this day".

We can take from that, anyone who is baptised goes straight to Heaven when they die.

This is going to make Judgement Day a bit of an anti climax.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 13:43 | 3551643 Abaco
Abaco's picture

That is insane - and not representative of Catholic doctrine.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 14:18 | 3551716 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

I raised my children without religion. I gave them Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and that worked out fine. Once they saw though those hoaxes they were old enough and sophisticated enough to be immune to the the religious drivel they were exposed to by sometimes accompanying their friends to church. Being born of a virgin, performing miracles and dying and rising from the dead was a common denominator of several ancient religions. One of the early church luminaries even wrote something along the lines of yes, I know you believe your god did those things, but ours is the one true god and really did. Organized religion is primarily a structure for power over and control of people and thus functions as an arm of the elite establishment and as means to siphon off what little lucre the elite establishment leaves you with.   

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 14:25 | 3551733 filament
filament's picture

Or, alternatively, it's a counterbalance to a totalitarian government, which is why they often get along so swimmingly.

Unless, of course, the politicos keep threatening  to get rid of the troublesome priests.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:49 | 3550519 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

Grounded. Like the mountain.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:55 | 3550526 suicidalpsychologist
suicidalpsychologist's picture

I dont understand why "thinking by yourself" equates =not believing in a higher power. In fact my own experience is that the more you think by yourself, the more you realize there has to be something above the whole experience, basically we re just little molecules in test tubes and grown , selected like weed by some superior form of life that harvest what it needs once in a while.

Most atheists dont understand that  atheism , which itself is a mix of beliefs (psychology, various parts coming from various philosophies, consumerism, materialism, hedonism etc) is a religion; you believe in atheism. A man cannot, not believe in a system of belief. If you dont believe in one system of belief, you believe in another one, you cannot not believe. Believing in nothing means being nihilistic, which defines what most atheists believe in; consum, abuse everything, focus on your own "pleasure", everythign is relative and so on...this is exactly the kind of system of belief that led us where we are nowadays. The funniest part about the whole thing is that people who believe "in nothing" - still believe in something, this something being..nothing. They all end into despair, dont reproduce, become cynical , and the most logical outcome would be they d kill themselves, but the irony is that they want to stick around, stay alive...and still want to abuse everything.

The other irony is that atheists stop reproducing, slowly disapear...and are replaced by people who still believe, are spiritual, and as a result...keep reproducing. In europe white atheists are replaced by muslims, in north america white atheists are replaced by ... christian south americans their ancestors ... evangelized.

'nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed' ; our bodies obviously transform after we die, what about our souls? well, if you dont have kids, your soul dies. Our offsprings are the physical and psychical sum of their parents; they are a mix of our bodies and a mix of our minds. We are the physical and psychical sum of those who spawned us. I believe that when the economies will collapse, people will become religious /spiritual again, because poverty makes people become spiritual and materialism make them become atheists.

The winner being the spiritual hard working rich man and woman who keeps reproducing and believing, the kind of people you generally find at the top of the human social pyramid.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:04 | 3550559 nobita
nobita's picture

I don´t want to put words in your mouth, but I think we agree that we need to reproduce or our lives are kind of wasted.

I don´t believe in a God, but I am lutheran.


Also one is not necessalry nihilistic or materialistic just because one does not believe in a God. 

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:46 | 3550650 Matt
Matt's picture

Or you can join VEHEMENT (The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement) and choose not to reproduce, in the hopes of non-violently contributing to a humanless future. 

Reproduction as the purpose of existence is very base; it is what defines plants, animals, etc. Are we, humans, not any better than yeast? Must we reproduce and consume, simply because it is our nature, until we run out of food?

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:50 | 3550659 nobita
nobita's picture

Eh. I just haven´t figured out any better reason for our existance.

And yes we are animals aren´t we?

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 23:49 | 3550749 Matt
Matt's picture

While we are technically animals, are we not more than animals? Even if we do not have an immortal soul, at the very least, we are sentient. We should have higher goals and expectations for ourselves than simply obeying our programming.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 03:06 | 3550906 filament
filament's picture

and, at the same time, not killing ourselves off so as not to disturb the yeast?

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:24 | 3550783 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Jesus died to atone for our sinfulness. Believe in Him and you will be saved. Only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ saves. The Bible does say 'you shall know them by their fruits', but only faith saves a person from eternal damnation. It is a free gift from God. Some of the most seemingly altruistic people in the world are going to Hell if they do not believe in Jesus. Some of the seemingly most vile, corrupt people on this earth are completely forgiven, cleansed under the Precious Blood, and fit for Heaven the instant they believe in Christ. Christ died for all sins, as He came to save the world, not condemn it. Repent of your sins and turn to God. Every person is a sinner and the wages of sin is death. God loves you and me so much He gave Himself to die for us. Jesus was blameless yet in perfect humility and love took the fall, and thought of you and me. He loves you that much.

Catholicism is false doctrine. The Word of God condemns idolatry and worship of graven images. Mary was a sinner just like you and I. There is no such thing as purgatory. One either spends eternity in Heaven, or Hell. The Catholic Church is a damnable institution. And many other people are falling for the false, perverted doctrines of other churches, such as those megachurches that teach health and wealth and new age/self-esteem. 

The cold hard fact is that we are sinners. I am a libertarian/Austrian schooler/ardent free-marketeer who believes in persuasion in turning people to the Gospel. Morality is not subjective, but I do not believe in imposing my values on others with force. Liberty is a blessing, and with free-market capitalism peoples' standards of living go up, but the only way to truly be free is to trust in God and know that you are saved. Humanism/materialism is what Ayn Rand believed in, sadly, and that is the road to perdition, no matter how great a job she did relaying the need to respect the individual. All that matters is eternity. Separate the precious (family, faith, friends) from the vile (perversion, Hollywood, deceit). 


God will test us, and His will will be done as foretold throughout the Bible, such as the Revelations. Nobody but He knows the day nor hour of the Second Coming. Have patience through this turbulence and lean on the everlasting arms of God.


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:24 | 3550793 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Morman.  That was the correct answer.  Sorry.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:52 | 3550820 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

+1 for that funny South Park episode!


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 01:13 | 3550828 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

There is a lot of hubris, confidence and judgement in your post. You mouth your indoctrination well. Judge not lest you be judged. Many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first. I see no love,compassion and Joy in you. Joy is the infallible evidence of the presence of God. I've never seen a fundamentalist Christian truly joyful. They seem too consumed with the conversion of others. Be still and know that I am. Oh, I didn't down arrow you btw.


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 01:33 | 3550844 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

It's just speaking the truth, straight from the Word of God. It is joyful news to know that I have eternal salvation. The only thing of which I boast is the Lord God who I fear. I agree vigilance and humility and deferment to God is needed to not become legalistic. I also believe that to love someone means telling them the truth, as opposed to compromising for say the sake of expedience. Where your soul spends eternity is all that matters. 


Regarding your comment on converting others, that is what God calls us to do, spread His Word, and not just preach to the choir. In going out and spreading the Gospel, sadly some perhaps many will reject it, but I acknowledge humbly that all I can do is share the Gospel and Jesus' love, and then pray for that person that they would not become hardened of heart and  that rather they will receive the Lord. 

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 11:36 | 3551366 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

 straight from the Word of God.


If you believe that the current version of the Bible which was put together by rich people who choose which gospels to include and which gospels to exclude is the absulte word of God you are a fucking idiot.

And do not give me that bullshit that God was on hand to make sure the the "right gospels" got in. The wealthy of the time dictaated what was put in because that was their vested interest, period.

When you find a gospel written within 5 years of the death of Christ then you will know what I mean.

Otherwise the New Testament is as suspect as any other so called written word a God.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 20:50 | 3552460 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Where does the Word of God come from and when was the New Testament written?  What did the early Christian Church rely on before the New Testament was written? Did God kill his own Son as a blood sacrifice or did Christ die willingly to defeat death so that we may have eternal life?

Do you realize your view of Atonement lines up more with Anselms and the Catholics view?


Why did God forgive sin before Christ came?....and if he did why did Christ have to die?  was it for our sins? or was it to defeat death?

Chronicles 7:14...look it up  God was talking to who then?  it wasn't the New Testament Church but yet he said If my people humble themselves...pray turn etc I will forgive their sins.


So basically you subscribe to the satisfaction theory..which is quite masochist and why most people are turned off from Christianity.


  Missing from the satisfaction theory are the points we derive from another analogy used by the Fathers and the Scriptures, that of healing. Actually, the Greek word used for salvation is the same word translated as “heal.” Context and theology determines the translation choice. It basically is a word that means wholeness or completeness. For Orthodoxy it indicates the fullness of how we were created. We are sick, and need healing because of the corruption we are subject to. In this picture, there is no owing or guilt directly involved, though it is in the background of how we got here. Rather, there is a healing of our souls going on. The analogy of debt and justice totally miss this whole context which is much frequently used in the Fathers. Even the Eucharist is referred to as the “medicine of immortality.” That is why to get a complete picture, we need to keep all the analogies before us.

                These are given us not only to understand what is salvation and how Christ chose to accomplish that in Orthodox theology, but also to show the basis for the view that many of us had as converts from Protestantism. We can see not only why Protestants understand things the way they do in relation to salvation, buy why Orthodox understanding is different. It is relational with God, not legal or financial in nature. That changes the whole perspective in how we approach salvation. It is not a one time deal, a declaring “not guilty,” but a continuing relationship with God. It is not a matter of works or faith, but a obedience to God of love which draws us closer to Him. It is not a matter of paying back something in full to God like a transaction, but a journey with Him into wholeness as we were originally created. It is the journey that saves us as we follow Him, taking His yoke upon us, carrying the cross we have been given. So we with repentance and humility work to become more in union with Him as the Church guides us.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 13:45 | 3551648 Abaco
Abaco's picture

Read more. Preach less. This is a tired and ignorant line.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 14:23 | 3551728 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Drivel - and sectarian drivel to boot.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 23:45 | 3550741 kareninca
kareninca's picture

This is totally bizarre.  You seem to think that all atheists are alike.  There are many ways of being an atheist, and some of them have NOTHING to do with consumerism, materialism and hedonism.

The most basic Christian doctrine is that God is omniscient, omnipotent and wholly benevolent.  Unfornately we are then confronted with the Problem of Evil.  Yes, those 1000 squished Bangladeshis.  Or the Yankee whalers that the south sea islanders cooked alive since that was tastier (yes, really).  Or the Japanese who dissected pregnant women alive, during WW!!.  Or google Tuskeegee.

So which have you given up?  Omniscience?  Is God just not aware of that father in Bakersfield who was just beaten to death by the cops?  Omnipotence?  Was God just incapable of saving that 8 y.o. at the Boston Marathon?  Or are you saying God isn't benevolent?  That sure would explain a lot, like Stalin's starvation murder of milliions of Ukrainians.

I do not see a reasoned basis for believing in the Christian god of Christian doctrine.  I also don't "feel" the presence of a god; some people do; good for them.

It is perfectly possible to believe in lots of things, even if you don't believe in God.  I believe that pain is bad; that human and animal suffering should be prevented.  Atheism does not logically lead to suicide; what a bizarre claim.  It doesn't even logically lead to not having kids; you can easily think that life is worth living, even if there is no God.

You need some critical reasoning training.


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:46 | 3550815 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Well said karenica. Those arguments were muddled. Too many conclusions drawn from facts unrelated for me to really understand. I do believe in a "higher power" but I'm not dissuaded by the notion of omniscience, omnipotence or benevolence. God can be all knowing and powerful but not necessarily inclined to intervene in the natural world. If, on my way to work tomorrow I were to drive into oncoming traffic I know god won't lift my car out of the way or cause the other drivers to swerve to save me. This is not the nature of god in this world. However I have experienced God in more subtile ways. For example last Christmas I went to a mall I hadn't been to for years to buy some shirts for my husband. I young bubbley girl was helping me pick out some items when I got a strange feeling. Finally I looked at her and asked her if she was ok. Her happy expression vanished, her chin quivered and suddenly she was crying in my arms. Apparently she had run away from home after years of sexual and physical abuse and was living with her boyfriend in total abject fear her father was going to find her and drag her home. This job was her ticket out and she was determined to survive. She told me she was too "damaged" to have a husband or children. She was convinced she would somehow continue the circle of abuse. I held her head inmy hands and told her I thought she was a courageous young women who escaped Hell and was going to come out of this with some help. I gave her numbers of people that I knew could help her. I walked out of that store shaking and overwhelmed. I mean I was just going to buy some dumb shirts. To me this was not serendipity or random luck. This girl needed help and I felt some power steering me. If this happened 4 years ago I couldn't have helped her, I was too fucked up myself to help any one. This is the way God, to me, works. Not that I wouldn't mind an all powerful deity dangling child molesters head first into a wood chipper. We humans cry for justice and vengeance only to hear silence. Most unfulfilling.


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 01:09 | 3550826 kareninca
kareninca's picture

I'm very glad you were able to help that young woman.  Was it because of God's invervention?  If so, it seems that He prefers to invervene in the easier cases.  Not in the case, of, for instance, the Tutsi killing the Hutu.  Or the slaughter of the Armenians.  Or the Irish famine.  Or the 45 percent of African American fetuses that are aborted every year in the U.S..

I'm not saying the Problem of Evil proves that there is no God.  It just shows that there is no God who is omniscient, omnipotent, and wholly benevolent.  When you say as above that "God can be all knowing and powerful but not necessarily inclined to intervene in the natural world," what you are saying is that God is not wholly benevolent.

Rabbi Kushner (not my religious background, but a sincere book), in "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People," reasoned things out, and concluded that God is not all powerful.  I think that is the most appetizing choice, if you're going to believe in a Judeo-Christian type of god.

Anyway, the nice thing about the notion of God, is that you can look at it and say, "I wish God would fix that!!"  But He doesn't.  Gives every indication of being AWOL, to be honest.  But at least you know what you want done.  Even though you have to do it yourself.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 01:37 | 3550849 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

I don't know if it was " intervention". I had complete freedom to walk out and say" Gee, it sucks to be you". More like I was in a good place psycologically and spiritually to help someone. Perhaps I was used? I'm not sure but I am glad I could help. If more of us were not so consumed with our problems and living mindlessly maybe more people could really help those who are suffering. At least we'd be better at "seeing " they were suffering rather than looking at superficialities. Believe me, I am happy to give back considering a lot of my life was mindless and shitty.

Benevolence means kind and benign. It implies passivity, quiescence. So god's apparent lack of action seems explained. This is not to claim I enjoy this. I'm quite pissed of with the somewhat free rein Evil has in this world. Whether this is because of impotence or AWOL, I'm not sure.


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 16:10 | 3550885 kareninca
kareninca's picture

Miffed, I just looked up "benevolence" in a number of places.  For instance, the King James Bible Page:


BENEV'OLENCE, n. L. benevolentia, of bene, well and volo, to will or wish. See Will.

1. The disposition to do good; good will; kindness; charitableness; the love,of mankind, accompanied with a desire to promote their happiness.

The benevolence of God is one of his moral attributes; that attribute which delights in the happiness of intelligent beings. "God is love." 1 John 4.

2. An act of kindness; good done; charity given.

I didn't find a single definition that said that benevolence implies passivity or quiescence.  All of the definitions made it seem like a very active quality.

I don't mean to flog this dead horse, but a God who doesn't prevent pregnant women from being dissected alive, or North Koreans from being starved into cannibalism, isn't benevolent (or, He isn't omnipotent or omniscient).


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 01:47 | 3550855 i-dog
i-dog's picture

+1 for:

"an all powerful deity dangling child molesters head first into a wood chipper"

I'm tempted to give 'him' a call to get 'him' started!

Does anyone have 'his' number? Would 'he' work without fear or favour against all child molesters (including priests, pastors, imams and rabbis)?

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 03:50 | 3550934 chindit13
chindit13's picture

I can blame a lot of that stuff on man plus godly callous indifference.  What sticks in my craw are tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, and childhood cancer, none of which comes from the hand of man.  Ain't no pure love happening there, and if it is some big plan, I actually prefer QE4eva.  Less collateral damage.

At the age I fully accepted that there is no just and loving higher power, and that any other kind would be useless, I also accepted that any responsibilty to make anything better for any of the "souls" with whom I share time and space lies with me.  Praying just doesn't cut it.  Rolling up the sleeves and lending a hand where a hand is needed does.  In that, oddly enough, one finds "salvation".

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 04:09 | 3550947 filament
filament's picture

I am sure the dinosaurs thought it a bitch too, when that meteoroid hit.  What, there is no God because bad things happen?

As far as accepting responsibility for your actions, and making the world a better place starting with yourself,  that sounds oddly familiar.  Antiquated ideas, though, no doubt.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 06:07 | 3551020 chindit13
chindit13's picture

That bad stuff happens doesn't prove there is no god, but it does prove that if there is one, it is not just and loving, which means what the hell good is it.  It might be incompetent, not quite omnipotent, or just an outright sadist that gets kicks out of pulling wings out of flies.  In any event, such an entity is hardly deserving of worship or adulation, and I would prefer putting the position up to a democratic vote.  Let's hear someone else' Master Plan.  If there's no vote possible, then I'll secede from the Universe and take my bio-electrical consciousness with me when I go, having greatly enjoyed that celestial second between ashes to ashes and dust to dust.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 08:52 | 3551160 i-dog
i-dog's picture

Very well put.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 16:08 | 3551973 kareninca
kareninca's picture

Agree +1000, chindit.

There may BE a God who is not just and loving, who allows the Lisbon earthquake (that's what destroyed the faith of many during Voltaire's time) but why would I want to WORSHIP Him??????????????


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 13:47 | 3551655 Abaco
Abaco's picture

You have set up false dichotomies.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:00 | 3550764 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

dunno suicidalpsych, but it seems like you have a lot of beliefs you're still working on, some of them not necessarily compatible. . .

A man cannot, not believe in a system of belief. If you dont believe in one system of belief, you believe in another one, you cannot not believe. Believing in nothing means being nihilistic,

try this on - instead of "believing in no  thing" what if someone accepts all things as believed in, by some people, but not uni-formly.  as in, belief exists, but no One belief is superiour over All.  it's in the hierarchy of beliefs that the confrontations take place, resulting in discord all the way to wars - the defense of beliefs, the hate of those who believe differently.

religions are useful to cultural creations.  if one desires to run a profitable nationstate, instilling a particular belief and adding cultural perks/punishments works like a charm!  beliefs can help foster shame, guilt, and persecution - powerful cattle-prods in the right hands.  beliefs also come with inherent taboos, also useful for "law" enforcements - it's culture-in-a-box!

one needn't be a believer to be an observer of All that Is.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:41 | 3550492 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Agreed but I saw no mention of a father in the last...or am I being old fashioned? ;-)

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:43 | 3550497 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Old fashioned?  Afraid so.  Welcome to the club, pal.  Although, you seem to have been a long-time member...


Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:58 | 3550550 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Been here longer than I expected to be, thats for sure...on both

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 03:26 | 3550916 snblitz
snblitz's picture

Reason provides the surest evidence of His existence.  Your eyes can do a good job too.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 04:52 | 3550972 pbppbp
pbppbp's picture

SP, Get help soon.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 06:43 | 3551039 bichat
bichat's picture

So reading your post I thought you were a "real french", but apparently you are part of the immigrants since your parents were german.

I would say that France is indeed losing its educated youth, whatever their origins(white, asian, arabs, africans, west indians etc) because it feels like diplomas have lost their value, and having a master degree is like a burden to find a job ( I speak from experience).

To me that is the real problem, France invests in people, but it doesn't give us the opportunity to evolve in society.

Educated people and 2nd generation immigrants, whatever their origins, are now choosing to have less babies. There is just something in the occidental culture that makes people act this way...

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 11:23 | 3551339 Floodmaster
Floodmaster's picture

Atheists are the only smart people in this world.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 13:56 | 3551675 filament
filament's picture

Which explains why they are always in such abundance during the contractionary phase of every civilization.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 11:38 | 3551347 e-recep
e-recep's picture

i am an agnostic atheist because the story of creation does not make sense and contradicts with the findings of science, (not junk science). the world was created 6000 years ago? yeah, right. tell that to an ignoramus maybe he'll buy it.

my disbelief has nothing to do with my perception of life in general but with the emptiness of the theist or polytheist stories. they just don't make sense. and i won't believe in something just to live my life as a believer.

my life has a meaning to me and i am not suicidal even though there is no imaginary deity in my life. i simply don't need it. i maybe depressed but that's just because we are in the winter phase of the large economic cycle, i am well aware of that. so, no need to make a big fuss about it.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 13:52 | 3551669 Abaco
Abaco's picture

Do you think that the secular creation story of the Big Bang makes sense? Everythng was compressed into a tiny dot that then exploded? How did that get there? What was there before hand?  Actually, the Big Bang theory sounds remarkably like "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth."

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 14:40 | 3551764 e-recep
e-recep's picture

there is no "secular creation story". the big bang theory is just theory and will remain so.

i prefer to stick to the notion that "we don't know yet". we must wait for the science to proceed step by step and find out. too bad if i may not see the day but there is no other way. i will die without knowing what this universe really is and it is OK, it doesn't bother me.

most people cannot wait and they rush to fill the voids of their knowledge with various imaginary stuff. i am not one of them.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:12 | 3550417 filament
filament's picture

But not 2.2?

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:56 | 3550541 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"Im white, atheist, depressed and suicidal."

I'm a white half Jew half Muslim adopted by Catholic parents.  I would blow everyone up but there's no profit in it, and I'd feel guilty anyway.   So fuck it.  I'll just run for President.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:13 | 3550590 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You can't run for president!

If you're not a pandering pol, to the teeming masses of ignorant i-shit junkies trying to go into debt for a college edumucation in dinosaur bones, while not being a browned skinned female transvestite (over sixty) who has lived its entire life inside the DC beltway sipping cocktails & eating shrimp cocktail (shrimping), you have no chance!

(Did I just say that?)

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:17 | 3550600 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

It just occured to me that I have not had a shrimp coctail in at least five years, not counting those little shrimp coctail at the supermarket. Messed up.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:45 | 3550812 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

And now for tonight's feature.  Little Shrimp Cock does Giant Tail.  

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:41 | 3550646 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture

A Middle Child..

I am in CT. I only say this because CT suppose to one of above average states. Next street over, I am talking to a guy how's from one of  Caribbean Commonwealth Island.

A woman he know is 23 years; 5 kids. Another one; 3 kids from one guy, 3 kids from another one and 2 more from whomever.

I say that they are all Harvard material.  It's a full time job just to buy food for all these kids.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:04 | 3550384 W T F II
W T F II's picture

You are correct. We have friends in Paris and their college educated daughter and son-in-law, both employed by household name major firms, chucked it all and moved to Australia with no employment or residence.

They took the shot because the saw the writing on the wall all around them.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:25 | 3550612 A Middle Child ...
A Middle Child of History's picture


Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:47 | 3550816 prains
prains's picture

how else do the oligarch's manu'f wage suppression, they import it by the millions who work for less hence drive down wages across the board


drink it !

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 09:29 | 3551131 rbg81
rbg81's picture

The justification for importing a lot of these Third Worlders is "economic growth".  How utterly laughable.  Instead of growing the economy, these people are just soaking up benefits and increasing the debt burden on the remaining producers.  Many of the Muslims are on welfare.  They pray all day at the mosque and bring in/have kids with multiple wives.  It's clearly unsustainable, but the Elites will never acknowlege it.  Anyone who claims these people will help save the great European Welfare state is either criminally naive or a lying traitor.

Not sure how it happened, but somewhere in the 60s, 70s, the West embraced these suicidal trends.  Now you have politicians who have drank the Kool-aid and are either too deluted (by their own propaganda) or scared shitless to change course.  Or both.  Whatever the reasons, they have succeeded only in killing their civilization.  

Bravo, gentlemen, bravo. [/s]

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 16:31 | 3552021 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

I don't think France is very high on the third worlders' lists of places to go for economic opportunity.  If it was- all the Greeks, Cypriotsand Iberians would be beating down the door to get in.  

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 17:46 | 3552143 Larry Dallas
Larry Dallas's picture

Personally. I find your comment fascinating. Is there a book or 2 you recommend that speak to this more?

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 22:52 | 3550663 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture

I lived first 12 years of my life in Central Europe. Junior high school, high school, undergraduate and graduate studies on the east coast of US.

Per Newt G. I must be one of those elites who reads books and travel.  I traveled a lot. Worked in London UK for 4 years. Traveled to every Western and Easter European Countries.

Have been to NZ and Australia.

France is not the only country that is having problems. Try Londonstan. German has never integrated its Turkish 2 or 3 million guest arbeiter.  I can go on. US is no different.

At some point things will stop working. Search Youtube for French Revolution vids and watch it for few hours. It will be clear.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 07:52 | 3551090 newworldorder
newworldorder's picture

You have identified the issues very clearly - at least for me, as to  what is happening in Eurorp, US and Canada.

1.  The "CORE' makeup of each country is changing.Its not all religious and economic. It is ethnic in the sense that people identify with that enthnicity.

2.  Immigration always reaches a tipping point and that tipping point is not when a group reaches majority population, but rather when a immigrant group becomes large enough to start making demands that change the structure of the core.

3.  Religion is important for the believers, especially those believers that lead their lives by that religion. Their very existance is governed by their religion and are driven to convert others to their position. With the exception of the old eastern european counties and due to their limited immigration, those may be the only countries to survive with their core identity remaining whole. All other will be assimilated slowly in what is referred today as "Londonstan." 

4. Unforunatly, as regards to muslim populations there is no middle ground. One is a muslim and lives as such or one is not and needs to be converted. The Ottoman Empire should be a good example for those that want to look to history, - as to what is coming to Western Europe.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 20:40 | 3550330 JustPrintMoreDuh
JustPrintMoreDuh's picture

Silly Clara.


What makes you think your bankster puppet poilitical overlords will allow any of its tax cows to ever leave?  And once the global banking/government NWO is in place ... where will you escape to?

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 00:20 | 3550789 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Iran? While you still can?

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 06:41 | 3551038 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

a Dutch company is recruiting for the first permanent human colony on Mars.  Thousands of applicants already.

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 13:57 | 3551680 filament
filament's picture

In related news, the IRS has begun investing in booster rockets.....

Sat, 05/11/2013 - 17:51 | 3552150 Larry Dallas
Larry Dallas's picture

Correction: tens of thousands of applicants for *one way* trip to Mars.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 20:40 | 3550332 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

If only Ingmar Bergman were around to film it.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 20:42 | 3550337 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture

Someone needs to pay for TGV and Airbus and other crap.  Did they ever make profit on Concorde.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 20:43 | 3550339 nobita
nobita's picture

75% income tax is truly "full retard".

Hollande is a fucking idiot, no two ways about it, the least popular president ever in France. 

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:09 | 3550407 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture


But Hollande himself said that he was Mr. Normal.  If that is normal why not try some idiot. Would it make a difference.

Fri, 05/10/2013 - 21:13 | 3550422 nobita
nobita's picture

I think some basic tax-financed social programs are great for society. Good schools and hospitals basically. 

But 75% income tax is completly fucking insane. How can they not see that? 

Eh. I guess the people see it, Clara at least, just the ruling elite so out of touch and deranged that miss it.

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