This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Who Is The Highest Paid Public Employee In Your State?

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Think the best paid public servant in your state is some tax-collecting bureaucrat with a commission-based comp structure, or some administrative apparatchik? Think again. As the following infographic from Deadspin shows, in 41 US states, the highest-paid public employee is either the football, basketball or hockey coach at the local state school. Whick takes cares of the "Circuses" part. For now, at least, public sector bakers did not make the list...

But fear not: your taxes don't pay for these key actors in the daily lineup of "bread and circuses" - from Deadspin: "The bulk of this coaching money—especially at the big football schools—is paid out of the revenue that the teams generate."

What are the considerations?

  1. Coaches don't generate revenue on their own; you could make the exact same case for the student-athletes who actually play the game and score the points and fracture their legs.
  2. It can be tough to attribute this revenue directly to the performance of the head coach. In 2011-2012, Mack Brown was paid $5 million to lead a mediocre 8-5 Texas team to the Holiday Bowl. The team still generated $103.8 million in revenue, the most in college football. You don't have to pay someone $5 million to make college football profitable in Texas.
  3. This revenue rarely makes its way back to the general funds of these universities. Looking at data from 2011-2012, athletic departments at 99 major schools lost an average of $5 million once you take out revenue generated from "student fees" and "university subsidies." If you take out "contributions and donations"—some of which might have gone to the universities had they not been lavished on the athletic departments—this drops to an average loss of $17 million, with just one school (Army) in the black. All this football/basketball revenue is sucked up by coach and AD salaries, by administrative and facility costs, and by the athletic department's non-revenue generating sports; it's not like it's going to microscopes and Bunsen burners.

So what constitutes total salary, and can taxpayers be on the hook after all? Apparently, yes.

Most of these databases include only the coaches' base salaries, which are drawn directly from the state fund. This is how you could be led to believe that Virginia's offensive coordinator earns more than its head coach.

 

Far exceeding these base salaries is the "additional compensation" that almost all of these coaches receive, which is tied to media appearances, apparel contracts, and fundraising. While this compensation does not come directly from the state fund it is guaranteed in the coaches' contracts; if revenue falls short, the school—and thus the state—is on the hook to cover the difference. Plus, even it doesn't come directly from taxpayers, this compensation is still problematic for all the reasons listed above.

 

Beyond salary and additional compensation, coaches earn money from bonus incentives tied primarily to the team's performance. This analysis ignored those bonuses and focused on guaranteed money, as it's impossible to guess at whether a coach will hit his benchmarks. And we're not even touching the ridiculous amounts of money coaches can get if they're fired before their contract ends.

Paying millions to "mediocre" state coaches: not a bad gig if one can get it.

One wonders - how long until Wall Street starts pitching football coach total return swaps and football victory collateralized structured products? And when will these subsequently become securitized, as footballs and jockstraps become quality eligible collateral to extract some more value out of yet another source of "assets"?

 


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:08 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Yep, just an example of the States getting their priorities straight....

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:14 | Link to Comment The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Crony capitalism and fiat allocation working perfectly.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:22 | Link to Comment Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Great.  In the liberal bastion of Minnesota, we have the top spot shared by 2 individuals.  And by shared, I don't mean split, I mean DOUBLE.  And Mark Dayton wants to raise our taxes even MOAR!!

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:30 | Link to Comment FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Scotty, what's sad is that most people in non- TC and Duluth (iron range unions) counties are very down to earth/conservative. 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:15 | Link to Comment Precious
Precious's picture

Color Key:

 

Yellow: Gender employment-discrimination class action filed by Hillaryland and Associates.

Orange: Discrimination class action certification on hold pending NFL concussion litigation.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:27 | Link to Comment ratso
ratso's picture

You might try Ortega y Gassett for the effect of democracy on the masses and their values for an answer to how this ridiculous juxtapostion has come about.  This is democracy sliding down the slippery slope of the degradation values.  It has nothing to do with the right or the left.

God save us from rampant mediocrity and stifling self-indulgence.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:10 | Link to Comment jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

great action, TD

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:17 | Link to Comment solgundy
solgundy's picture

Roll Tide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 21:15 | Link to Comment Spigot
Spigot's picture

Ummm, yeah. Dear God we are so screwed.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 23:23 | Link to Comment MagicHandPuppet
MagicHandPuppet's picture

Fucking statist circus monkey leaders. And the sheep worship them. 'We' ( and by we I mean You) will get what we deserve.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 02:55 | Link to Comment AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Centuries after Roman Empire declined, nobody cares about university of Rome, but the coliseum still generates revenue from tourism dollars.

Humans want bread and circuses now rather than intellectual development in the future.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:40 | Link to Comment Helvetico
Helvetico's picture

Big ups for the relevant philosophy reference.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:44 | Link to Comment Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

For the curious ...

http://www.historyguide.org/europe/gasset.html

Large number of search references for Gassett, however the spelling with a singular 't' is correct.  One more unintended consequence of the Web ... mistakes compound as research is totally neglected - takes too much time perhaps.

"We do not know what is happening to us, and this is precisely what is happening to us, not to know what is happening to us ...  (1926)

And then there is this ageless poetry - perfect description of a Black Swan event -

There are known knowns. 
There are things we know we know. 
We also know 
There are known unknowns. 
That is to say 
We know there are some things 
We do not know. 
But there are also unknown unknowns, 
The ones we don't know 
We don't know.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:12 | Link to Comment The Shootist
The Shootist's picture

Was ortega y gassett the chap who wrote about hunting? Good stuff.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 01:13 | Link to Comment Welder
Welder's picture

'Revolt of the masses' is one of the greatest books of the 20th century.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 02:59 | Link to Comment AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Unfortunately with American education system, you have masses of idiots who will allocate more to football than medicine

Plus peak medicine with humans outliving beyond their senses.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:09 | Link to Comment SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

it's not about the coach being able to win games

it's about a coach being able to lose a game when favored 20-to-1

just a little xmas present for the board of trustees, something to say "thanks for hiring me!"

a mediocre coach can -- at best -- only lose a game when favored 2-to-1

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:22 | Link to Comment Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

Bread & Circus for the steeple.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 00:03 | Link to Comment aerojet
aerojet's picture

And yet most of those fuckers still vote for Democrats!

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 21:28 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Looks more like Pane et Circenses to me.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 03:38 | Link to Comment Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

Fiat DISallocation is what's happening.  Don't worry, when the states implode it will take alot of these salaries with it.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:25 | Link to Comment freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

Support your local distraction.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:57 | Link to Comment The Heart
The Heart's picture

"Support your local distraction."

Yep! You said it. Distraction!

Coincidence? Just reading this prior to the daily ZH visit. Check out these two new stories below. If there is ANYONE on board that can not only help expose this crime and corruption, but also help stop this insanity, please do so. WE DO NOT WANT A FALSE FLAG EVENT TO MANIFEST!

"Right now, Hilary Clinton and President Obama are facing the possible downfall of their political careers over the Benghazi cover-up. Thanks to recent testimony, we now know that the Obama administration actually ordered the stand-down of U.S. military forces, directly causing the death of a U.S. ambassador as well as those in the embassy who attempted to save his life.

This is a scandal many times more explosive than Watergate. As the Benghazi investigation unfolds, it may very well end up in the forced resignation of Obama himself.

“Greenlighting” a pre-planned operation

To avoid that from happening, Clinton, Obama and all the other globalist minions in Washington D.C. are trying to figure out what false flag scheme they have ready to go right now. They desperately need to pull the trigger on something: a bombing, a mass shooting, a hundred dead kids bleeding out on public sidewalks or something that can distract the media (and the public) from asking too many questions on Benghazi."

http://www.hangthebankers.com/false-flag-alert-high-chance-of-staged-eve...

Everybody knows this was a hit on the ambassador to cover up the weapons of mass destruction that have been smuggled into Syria for use later. Everybody knows the plans to blame the Assad administration for the use of these weapons. The story is already been reported.

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/theodore-and-walid-shoebat/syrian-rebels-no...

http://rt.com/news/syria-chemical-weapons-plot-532/

http://johngaltfla.com/wordpress/2013/05/08/the-other-truth-about-benghazi/

http://townhall.com/columnists/katiekieffer/2013/04/29/benghazigate-obam...

http://clothcap.livejournal.com/126029.html?thread=255309&

http://www.sovereignindependentuk.co.uk/2013/02/11/new-report-says-brenn...

And from Ann Barnhardt:

"Because Chris Stevens was a lynchpin in the running of arms by the Obama regime and Clinton's State Department in full cooperation with each other to the Muslim Brotherhood and al Qaeda through Libya. And yes, it is absolutely sane and appropriate to assume that Huma Abedin (Hillary's consigliere and daughter of high-ranking Muslim Brotherhood leaders) figures into this. Both Obama's White House and Hillary's State Department were mutually and equally tied to this arms running, and both of their bacons were equally in the fire. The Obama White House, I am convinced, has plans for the retention of power beyond 2016 (Michelle?), and Hillary thinks she is going to be POTUS from 2017-2025. The bottom line is that the duumvirate of the most dangerous, evil psychopaths on the face of the earth decided for slightly different reasons that Ambassador Stevens needed to be dead in order to cover the gunrunning to the Muslim Brotherhood, and so together, they killed him. They withdrew all of his security (at the behest of the State Department), told the Muslim Brotherhood that it was all-clear, guaranteed that there would be no response or retaliation to an attack (only the Oval Office could issue the stand-down order), and even put the cherry on top by instantly framing the entire hit as some sort of musloid blasphemy propaganda. That was just gratuitous. Sickeningly gratuitous."

http://barnhardt.biz/

And here is the jist of it all:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/04/29/caught-israel-orchestrating-worl...

Ya know, the mass mind and the choices the people make are far more powerful than these babylonian bankster world domination and population reductionists. Once the fire of revolution is sparked, it is all over for these criminals and corrupted highest paid employees. Notice all the talk about the corruptions and crimes of isreal lately? THE PEOPLE ARE AWAKE AND KNOW WHO THE ENEMIES OF AMERICA ARE.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:07 | Link to Comment FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

What happened to LBJ and McCain's father when they ordered a stand-down wrt defending the USS Liberty from the very lethal attack by our GCP pals? Answer: Not a goddamn thing.

There is a hidden agenda at Benghazi just as there was with the Liberty. Barry and Hill are just following orders.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:18 | Link to Comment The Heart
The Heart's picture

Roger that FS. Thank you.

The good news is, more and more people see all this and sooner or later the hundredth monkey will see the Light and then DO something to lead the lemmings in a massive house cleaning. This is the only answer. Eliminate the trouble making bankster babylonian terrorists, and all will be well world-wide. Easy peazy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQoiNGVXjw

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:54 | Link to Comment freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

"Clinton, Obama and all the other globalist minions in Washington D.C. are trying to figure out what false flag scheme they have ready to go right now."

Maybe the next false flag will have the unintended consequences of being the first domino to fall.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:22 | Link to Comment earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

@ the Heart

currently as i write... general petreus's quick and untimely departure from the head of the cia for adultery [code of chivalry unbecoming an officer and a gentleman?] as a means for blackmail [?], or some other lame excuse that [i]one can conjure up to posit at the quasi-esoteric bennacle-lodestone of mr. mic's state department-- founded upon the highest standards of altruistic jingoism?! 

the depatrure as one of the free world's most decorated war hero into the clandestine and nefarious world of espionage is a msytery,... the timing,... the blackmail sophistry[?],... the questionable mistress [kennedy's & marilyn monroe/kgb connection?] ... the improbable witch-hunt that never was or ever surfaced?

but,... who was this socialite, or [?]others?

i would venture that very soon, very soon indeed... the good general's name is going to be dragged through the mud to protect one hillary/white-watergate/clinton and obama, [?]himself[?],... administration?

there's going to be alot of plausible deniability goings-on, but for petraeus who would just rather wish to fade away out of the msm's limelight-- best, better take his blinder's off--  because he's in a race for his life!?

ref:   'Clinton's Whitewater Timeline'      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/whitewater/timeline.htm

'The Fall of Petraeus: A CIA Coup ?'   [read between the lines of spunned-obfuscation?]    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/a-cia-coup/

jmo

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:05 | Link to Comment MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

"This is a scandal many times more explosive than Watergate. As the Benghazi investigation unfolds, it may very well end up in the forced resignation of Obama himself."

Ha. Ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Are you kidding me?

Remember, it was the Republicans (not the Democrats) who forced the resignation of Richard Nixon. Why is that important to remember? Simple. Then (and maybe even now - not absolutely sure, but maybe), the Republican rank and file was different than the Democrat rank and file. This is even more the case these days.

I believe that there is nothing - literally, absolutely nothing - that disqualifies a person from holding public office in the eyes of a Democrat as long as they're progay, proabortion, proglobal warming, antiwhite, antiChristian statists who'll keep the goodies flowing and their egos unruffled.

Alcee Hastings, for example. (A federal district court judge caught taking bribes now 'the honorable' in the house from Georgia.)

Democrats would vote for Satan. Period.

You really think they'd get upset about something like Benghazi? Give me a break.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:40 | Link to Comment KickIce
KickIce's picture

Actually, it's one of the most free market systems we have left and the people are getting exactly what they want - and deserve.

At the bigger schools the gate easily covers the coaches salary and the football and basketball programs cover the entire athletic department.

And yes, I agree our priorities are screwed up.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:14 | Link to Comment Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Who builds the stadiums? The taxpayer. They wouldn't make gate if they had a mortgage to pay. Just like pro sports. They make big bank because the owners and players don't have to build and finance a venue to play their games. They can just extort more from the slaves.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 21:38 | Link to Comment KickIce
KickIce's picture

Texas, Nebraska, Oregon, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame - the SEC schools?  Huge amounts of cash rolling in and if they didn't have to subsidize the rest of the athletic department they could easily pay a mortgage. 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:34 | Link to Comment Acidtest Dummy
Acidtest Dummy's picture

Not true, because watching these seven teams play each other again and again wouldn't draw many fans. It is all the perenial losers who subsidize these winning programs that make the charade (of profitability) possible. "Student-athelete" is lie told prevent workers comp claims that would bankrupt collision sports. The NCAA is a charity for tax purposes only.

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:45 | Link to Comment Scro
Scro's picture

Hook em Horns

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:09 | Link to Comment Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

Here in California, all of em. Teachers, cops, firemen...hell, even our city groundskeepers. We are fucking suffocating beneath these parasitical bastards.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:26 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Don't know about the rest, but teachers and firemen are just parasites now?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:34 | Link to Comment Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

Wish I had a dollar for every cop with a disability retirement. "Bad Back" seems to be the prefered ailment. Hard to disprove. Teachers? Well as someone said long ago...
"those who can't......teach". Now, go fuck yourself.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:39 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

yup, you're a retard, thanks for clearing that up.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:50 | Link to Comment Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

The old gringo's cool - don't hate. He's just pissed that there are effectively no teachers anymore, because like all other beneficiaries of the big-gub bureaucracy, public school teachers are no more than script-readers.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:54 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

 

 

"Now, go fuck yourself." - gringo

It's not me doing the hatin' here SB.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:13 | Link to Comment Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Maybe he meant it in a very loving sense, i.e. "fuck you dear sir, what a gentleman you are."

Alright, alright, point taken. People used to be super nice on the internet before 2002ish, you know. It's only in recent years we've seen the decline.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:50 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

As you see immediately below SB, that's the level of 'discussion' and logic involved, btw, careful, I'm apparently a commie. Makes you wonder how all these rambo wannabe heroes for a better world ever think they'll create one, or at least make one that's better than this? I'm polite to who is polite, the rest give 1 chance per thread. But I don't hold grudges, next thread I'll give them another chance. That's just what I do. Cheers SB.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:11 | Link to Comment Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

"next thread I'll give them another chance" LMFAO

You couldn't make this shit up. These progs are oblivious to their self-absorbed absurdness.

Mix me another drink then come over here and sit on my lap

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:18 | Link to Comment Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

I assume you're a prog. Only a prog would consider someone telling them to get fucked hate speech. Well my little communist friend, you do not have the right to NOT be offended. Now stick your finger up that fay ass of yours and......go fuck yourself.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:48 | Link to Comment Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

Union script readers.

 

 

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:36 | Link to Comment Fuku Ben
Fuku Ben's picture

If teachers aren't relegated to mindlessly reading from some scripted curriculum they are often treated like scum by administrations and school boards. They get scapegoated all the time to save the school money in lawsuits. Unless they have a good teacher's union. 

I know at least a half dozen die-hard we're gonna save the kids types that have taken early retirement over the last fews years or so because they said it was getting out of control

One even equated it to "the inmates running the asylum"  with the admin. putting the kids above the teachers.

This kid below is probably right. But everyone in the pyramid is to blame. Especially at the top. But the school admin is already scapegoating the teacher and reinforcing the kids actions as correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bYv2AKPZOk

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 23:33 | Link to Comment upWising
upWising's picture

There is a lot of truth in what you say about "script reading."  There is little choice these days in the world of "teacher accountability."  The Teachers (capital T) who really wish to teach it "how it is" rather than "by the book" are viewed as "going off the reservation" and have their lives made a true misery by administrators (little "a") and fellow teachers (little "t") who faithfully toe the party line.  Just as judges these days are given little power to really "judge" or any power to "judge" an appropriate sentence or punishment (since they are chained to federal and state "sentencing guidelines"), teachers are shackled to "frmeworks," "goals," "highly measurable behaviorable outcomes," and the tyranny or nearly-monthly testing, leaving little or no room for real Teaching.  

And the Empire crumbles..........

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:51 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

One county employee where I live recently purchased a new 4 door Tesla.
List $103,000.
Admittedly, I do not know his financial details, but lots of 'em got 500 series Mercedes. Porsches, etc....
And we pay for life long medical, whatever....
Buncha locusts

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:55 | Link to Comment QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

Firemen work 10 days a week and retire with 90% pay & full bennies. I'd tell you to GFU, but the public employee unions already have it so far up you cannot see reality...

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:07 | Link to Comment Helvetico
Helvetico's picture

Ten days a week? Where did you learn your math and editing skills, public school?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:41 | Link to Comment DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

FWIW-

Here's some interesting info from a Firefighter's Academy website.

Job description states typical FF works 8 days a month, and job security is tops.

If one has the time, the info is interesting, even if it might be biased, as they offer training.

http://www.firemanemtparamedic.com/how_to_become_a_fireman.html

 

Still and all, FF is a protected species, and is paid as such.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:08 | Link to Comment yogibear
yogibear's picture

Some make as much as physicians or more.

They laugh at you when you tell them their pension could be cut. They'll quickly respond with "We are protected by the state constitution, the state taxpayer has to make good on their promise"

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:52 | Link to Comment noless
noless's picture

I think he's referring to overtime, yaknow, time and a half? When was the last time you got it?

Or maybe he's retarded, who knows right?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:06 | Link to Comment Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

You learned to read and write on your mother's lap.  Good for you.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:35 | Link to Comment PacOps
PacOps's picture

Not the individuals but their political and income driven union leaders who hold us hostage to their demands.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:42 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Exactly.

Because anyone asserting that professional teachers are not essential in this sort of modern world apparently DOES WANT TO LIVE IN A FEUDAL SYSTEM.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:11 | Link to Comment EscapingProgress
EscapingProgress's picture

Professional government teachers are part of the neo-feudal system. Government schools in the U.S. are churning out ignorant serfs at an astonishing rate which is exactly what they were designed to do. None of the commenters here would deny that professional teachers play a role, but a private system, I am sure, is what they advocate. If not, at least a decentralized community education system. The highly centralized public school system that currently exists is an indispensable piece in the neo-feudal explotation of hundreds of millions of serfs by the economic and political elites.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:21 | Link to Comment Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

@ Escaping

+100

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:39 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Well I, and 99% of the people in developed countries, went through a very highly centralized education system, and most of them did a hell of a lot better than the ignorant graduates emerging from many US schools, which suggests the terminal failure of their education is NOT a function of a highly centralized education system. QED

It's how its' been structured and operated, but most of all, it's a function of the kids themselves, which are a function of the parents, and the communities they come from.

There's your real problem.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:02 | Link to Comment EscapingProgress
EscapingProgress's picture

The entire "developed" world is consumed by ignorance, fear, helplessness, and economic decline. Wherever you are from I am sure it is no shining beacon on a hill that we should all envy. Nor is it a place full of intelligent, aware, compassionate, confident individuals. Such a place does not, has not, and cannot exist under any centralized state.

"It's how its been structured, and operated, but most of all, it's a function of the kids themselves, which are a function of the parents, and the communities they come from. There's your real problem."

Parents are compelled through government coercion and an economic environment induced by government policy to send children to a public school. You cannot possibly blame the children, the parents, or the community. Your real problem, as I previously stated, is centralization. Decentralization of everything (education, law, economic policy, etc.) is the only solution.

If you want to understand where I am coming from I recommend you start by reading the following writings on community psychology from Dennis Fox. An understanding of community psychology is crucial if you want to understand the root of the problems associated with a centralized state.

http://www.dennisfox.net/papers/anarchism_and_psychology.html

http://www.dennisfox.net/papers/commons.html

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:11 | Link to Comment James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Centralization is obviously a major problem as it's contrary to basic laws of nature, but anarchy doesn't necessarily add up either. 

http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

I'm sure people will be offended by the posting of a feminist essay on here, but whatever. 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:02 | Link to Comment noless
noless's picture

Here's your tell: " For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given group and to participate in its activities the structure must be explicit, not implicit."

But no, i didn't rta, only skim.

That statement, even without context, drives home the point that modern feminism desires direct control over the state apparatus, not free and voluntary associations between individuals.

Maybe she is advocating for a solid and standard rule of law devoid of exceptions based on race class gender etc, but since it's coming from a feminist I'm guessing no.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:07 | Link to Comment noless
noless's picture

Definitely worth reading.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:08 | Link to Comment Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

Grad student BS, nothing moar.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:15 | Link to Comment James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

That statement, even without context, drives home the point that modern feminism desires direct control over the state apparatus, not free and voluntary associations between individuals.

Maybe she is advocating for a solid and standard rule of law devoid of exceptions based on race class gender etc, but since it's coming from a feminist I'm guessing no.

You missed entirely the point of what she was writing, even the quote you cite you misunderstand. 

Read the thing, then argue against it. 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:31 | Link to Comment MiltonFriedmans...
MiltonFriedmansNightmare's picture

@anyone defending the educational system, be it public or private. Please point to the school where The Creature from Jekyll Island is required reading. Please point to the school that questions the legitimacy
central banking.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:49 | Link to Comment logicalman
logicalman's picture

Bang on!

Ever since my kids were out of kindrgarten I've pointed out that when they go to school they get 'schooled'.

When they were at home, they were educated.

Both were in gifted programs at school, which helped a bit, but when they were home, we discussed everything from cosmology to philosophy, and I always encouraged them to think for themselves.

Neither will make very good sheep, I'm glad to say.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:11 | Link to Comment Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

+ 100 for accepting responsibility and doing real education.   NOT 'home schooling' which is often a religious/ignorance based poorly served attempt at larnin'.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:00 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

 

 

"Decentralization of everything (education, law, economic policy, etc.) is the only solution."

I'm sorry, but you are living in a theoretical world if you even think that's an option available to you.

You couldn't do that in even a single city, because to do it the city would basically have to cease to exist or function, and the population would have bigger and shorter-term things to worry about.

Thank you for being kind as to provide links but I won't read them (just being honest) because if that's your conclusion, that comprehensive decentralization is the only answer, then you are not looking honestly at the world around you, to gauge that sort of potential to enact that.

Human geographical organization expresses itself as clusters of farms, villages, towns, cities and mega-cities. This is normal when sufficient resources and mutual agreement and cooperation are present. They don't decentralize well from this, they tend to die in very large numbers if you try.

So that's out. Which means you're left with how you want to do things in cities and large towns? But whatever your choices, you're still going to need specialist teachers and specialist firemen, or you're all going back to an 18th century way of living within a generation, and at a very much lower population and education level.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:14 | Link to Comment noless
noless's picture

I believe the point is what you made yourself, that the federal government or any superior outside force should not be mandating curricula..

 

People will naturally organize regardless, the feds don't need to come in and explain how fire prevention and abatement works, the information is widely available.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:42 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Firstly, who is going to be professionally trained, and by who?

Who is going to retain and develop this knowledge and practice it, turn it into experience, and prepare for major fires, in a city of 4 million people?

How are these persons going to survive, day to day and want to do their job and put your fire out?

And how are you going to ensure they are there when you really need them?

It's so easy to talk cheap but not so easy to face the implications of dysfunctional ideas.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:02 | Link to Comment EscapingProgress
EscapingProgress's picture

"Human geographical organization expresses itself as clusters of farms, villages, towns, cities and mega-cities. This is normal when sufficient resources and mutual agreement and cooperation are present. They don't decentralize well from this, they tend to die in very large numbers if you try."

I agree entirely.

A city government, even for an enormous city, is decentralized in my opinion. I'm railing against the nation state by advocating decentralized government, and, to a lesser degree, state/provincial government. I think it would be great if the only governments that existed were city or county governments with mutual defense/assistance agreements with neighboring cities or counties.

By advocating decentralization I am principally in opposition to the nation state. I do not deny that culturally and economically similar groups of humans will organize into farms, villages, towns, cities, and mega-cities. What we do not need, however, is governance in the form of the nation state.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 12:17 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Thank you for replying again, appreciated.

I see we do largely agree then on the need for practicality in proposals, and the general undesirability of nation states and smaller scale govt infringements. Thank you for clarifying that.

In that case I have now D/L those links and I will take time to read them carefully.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:58 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Please read, "The Underground History of American Education". Then brush up on the antics of the Rockefeller foundation. I think you mean well, but this sytem is seriously messed up ON PURPOSE! It has NOTHING to do with the parents and communities.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:20 | Link to Comment Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

You've been away from the education field awhile, dickhead.  Today Education curriculae are being totally rewritten for primary and secondary schools, in accordance with the so-called Common Core championed and largly financed by one William Gates through his foundation.

Good project, kids are learning, and if we could just do away with Bushit's End of Grade testing - public schools could become public education facilities ...

Naaa - asking a teacher basher to think is simply out of the question - better to go to the Big Game and get drunk afterward and fight someone dressed in different colors.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:56 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Curriculums are always being re-written. You think Gate's foundation is unrelated to the Rockerfeller's? You aren't the brightest bulb are you? Kids always learn, but how and why? William Gates is a globalist, CFR piece of crap. You want to put your trust in him? Why not just put yourself in chains? 

I was a teacher, you failed to address the book I cited and that means you have no argument. What a moron...

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:13 | Link to Comment DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

"...it's a function of the kids themselves, which are a function of the parents, and the communities they come from.

 

There's your real problem."

 

 

Amen! As a teacher (yeah, hate me, baby, hate me!), I see this every day. Good, involved, parents have good kids, and half-baked parents have half-baked kids. 

 

Close to 90% of my colleagues are liberal by default, i.e., their own educational experience, and that having good liberal intentions is all that matters.  Like Ronald Reagan said, "It's not that liberals are bad people, it's just that what they know is wrong."  Of course, their ignorance carries a price that we all must pay.

 

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:31 | Link to Comment Proofreder
Proofreder's picture

Amen.

The most difficult problem in the classroom is the disruptive spawn of screwed up relationships and uncaring parents.  No marriage, trash-talking kids that can and will turn a classroom into chaos, do a week in detention and come right back and repeat.

So if you really want to abolish professional teachers, get ready to spend ten times the amount you current pay ...

for prisons, jails, and more highly paid public servants in (Homeland) Security jobs.

Public Protection - well worth it, whatever the cost.

/sarc

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:48 | Link to Comment DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

Right, it's usually only a very small minority that can/will ruin your class -or try to; another group, about 1/3 -depending, are either in mediocrity mode or outright apathetic, listless, distracted, tired, hungry, etc.; and about 1/3 are usually on fire to learn. If not for those good kids, I'd say the hell with it. I don't need to teach.  

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 21:38 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Ah, but in the individualist utopia to come there will be no budgets - no problems! Red your little blue book!  /sarc

But seriously, so many people are beyond fed-up with govt, me included, tax especially, and the current situation is a shocker. But when I look at what it really means to implement no Govt, I come to the view, which I think was the same informed view of US constitutional drafters, that a govt that is as small as possible, is the only thing that is going to do what must be gone. The problem is the same now, as then, how to stop money interests co-opting it. So a possible answer seems to involve ripping away almost everything within existing govt, at every level of govt (including current contracts/agreements) and completely eliminate the Taxation system, and rethink all of it again.  You can't go to a new new-world to get such a reset, so it has to be done in-situ. But what do I know.

2c

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:17 | Link to Comment DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

Your possible solution is paramount, because bloated governments ultimately collapse of their own weight (like a 500 lb. guy who can't make it to the refrigerator and noone else will do it for him), or they get taken over by more rigorous and efficient people from the outside. It's kind of like asking a junkie to get off of his favorite drug; possible, but sadly, not likely.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 21:12 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

That was a great RR quote, cheers

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:16 | Link to Comment Helvetico
Helvetico's picture

What's your solution, dickface? No more public schools? Please point us to one functioning nation-state that doesn't have public education. I bet you can't.

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:39 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Because of course heaven forbid that the state-sponsored government indoctrination of citizen-sheep ever be ended in favor of voluntary, free market-supplied education.

You may argue that under a free-market-based educational system, the level of education across society will be uneven, and that is true.  But when is it otherwise in ANY sphere of life, save that of the growing and inherently coercive arenas courtesy of government, in which ALL receive the lowest common denominator?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:43 | Link to Comment James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

You may argue that under a free-market-based educational system, the level of education across society will be uneven, and that is true.  

Instead of sticking to binaries (American speciality) how about looking around the world and checking out the education systems with the best results and consider how they do things differently. Finland comes to mind. 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:50 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

How about assuming that mass coercion ought not to be the primary guiding principle of any civilized society?

What makes the provision of education so unique that voluntary, free-market activity cannot supply it?

PS: There are many private schools in the USA (not sure about the EUSSR), and they are consistently known for their superior level of education compared to the government ("public") schools.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:04 | Link to Comment James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

How about assuming that mass coercion ought not to be the primary guiding principle of any civilized society?

There isn't a law that you must attend public school nor is there a law that you must use the interstate highway system. It's a service. 

What makes the provision of education so unique that voluntary, free-market activity cannot supply it?

First, any time you bring up this idea of 'free-market' you must define it. It can mean many things. After defining it, cite examples of it currently in operation because as far as I am aware there no known free markets of any kind.  

PS: There are many private schools in the USA (not sure about the EUSSR), and they are consistently known for their superior level of education compared to the government ("public") schools.

First, a lot of them receive direct government support, all of them receive indirect support - as does EVERY and I mean EVERY business, 'free-market' or otherwise, in the USA. Second, if you attend Harvard you will receive a better 'education' than if you go to a public college. Not surprising. 

If you look around the world good public education systems are always a hallmark of a strong balanced economy. 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:56 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

James, what a load of mindless crap.  Appeals to authority, conformity and tradition (twisted as it is) are no substitute for honest and logical argument.  But you seem to feel they are.  I have finally come to the conclusion that you are a government-sponsored troll, as EVERY post you make is in implicit, and often explicit, support of the status-quo power structure.  I simply lack words to express the level of contempt I feel for a spineless, servile lackey such as yourself.

First, any time you bring up this idea of 'free-market' you must define it.

No, I do NOT have to define it --- "free market" is clearly understood by anyone with any small measure of honest and functional intelligence.  It simply means freely chosen, voluntary economic exchanges and actions, as opposed to the coercive, one-size-fists-all arrangements so beloved by statists and apologists for (corrupt) authority such as you.

First, a lot of them receive direct government support, all of them receive indirect support - as does EVERY and I mean EVERY business, 'free-market' or otherwise, in the USA.

Nice, and disingenuous, restatement of "You didn't build that --- somebody else did that."

If you look around the world good public education systems are always a hallmark of a strong balanced economy.

Appeal to conformity, tradition and irrelevant in any case.  You are simply arguing in favor of the worst prison in the world.  Again, you fail to explain why conformity and coercion are essential to educating our young.

Wow, are you one maliciously dishonest bastard.

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:50 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

"There isn't a law that you must attend public school..."

WTF...what a weasely ass statement...going to public school is cumpulsory in the US and the "public education system" is based on the Prussian model of 1763 of "moulding model serfs" and worker bees. You have to opt out and go to private school/home school or you're a truant in the eyes of the law.

I would direct your attention to the definition of truant.

PC Police to now redefine or come up with another word for absence without the governments permission in 3-2-1...

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:23 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

How could any functioning adult in the US NOT know it is mandatory? Some states make home schooling almost impossible as well.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:03 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

I don't think he's from the US (or at least a native)...sounds more like his ox is being gored.

I've said before, mine was taught to read-write-add-subtract and were working on division & fractions when entered into public school...by Mrs.N, as a game during the course of being a stay-at-home Mom...the teachers were stunned.

We made the decision to enter government schools only for the social interaction among peers, not for any great educational benefit to be had.

I also understand the "premise" of the other side, not every child will have a Mrs.N as a Mom or a dad that can provide to make it happen FOR them, the kids.

But there has to be a better way than the indoctrination camps being run as a "service" at the publics expense. If we're going to be taxed for it, we should have a say in where and for what the money goes. Its patently unfair to democratize education down to the lowest common denonminator to where it expands beyond learning the basics to achieve higher and into social concepts the parent & child will snicker at all the way through.

Thats reserved for college and chosen fields of interest & debt ;-)

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 07:06 | Link to Comment DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

One important thing I have noticed over my 15 years of teaching is that, of the kids (in high school) that I have taught over the years that had been home-schooled or had attended private (usually religious) schools, before coming to public school, almost all are many times more courteous and mature in general and much more academically inclined/serious about learning than the vast majority of the kids who came up through the public system from the get-go. This distinction is precisely where I see the difference between state-indroctinated, union-influenced/bound teachers, and those that have broken out of the blue-pill/amoral mode of teaching. 

 

Whenever I bring up this great quote from John Adams below, liberals/teachers get all discombublated, but it goes to the heart of the matter: a good intellectual education has to go hand in hand with a moral education -or else you get what we see in the public schools...state morality, which is no morality at all, but rather feel-good BS.

 


“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:31 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

akak

You're a smart guy, there are two possibilities. Consider this:

 

Collective Policies (i.e. collective politics) and cooperation (which can of course be coercion or else voluntary)

or

Individual Choices (zero collective politics).

 

So let's say you're in a city of 4 million Humans, all with individual choice prevailing and zero other 'collective policy'.

If your children and grand children are not educated to live within an advancing technological society, or at least one in technical continuity, then your next generation is going to die-back, or else live at a lower level of technical existence and sufficiency, at lower population level.

Right?

So your very real individual choice then is; what are you going to do to educate your two-week old daughter, or son, to avoid such die back or technical and population decline?

Let's say 1 million of the population have children and are in a similar quandary.

What's going to work longer-term?

Note: this isn't about politics, or ideals, or books or theories, only what educational method will work to avoid a terrible decline of the city.

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:43 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Element, I am not sure I am understanding what you are trying to argue or say here.

However, I do believe that you make a profound error by setting up the false dichotomy of "collective policies" vs. "individual policies".  Almost ALL individual actions within a society can be said to be "collective" in some way --- that is inherent in our nature as social beings.  And perhaps it needs to be said that there is nothing inherently wrong with collective action --- as long as that collective action is VOLUNTARY and not coerced.

I honestly feel that very, very few people in any modern society understands, or is willing to admit, or even CAN admit to themselves, that the very essence of ANY governmental policy or action is coercion, pure and simple.  Without coercion, government ceases to be relevant, or even exist.  I uphold the principle that the guiding principle of social organization, precisely because humans are social animals, ought to be, and is most efficiently provided by, voluntary and freely-made choices and actions, not coercive or coerced ones.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:47 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Sure, but I don't disagree with any of what you said akak, we do agree. But please, answer the question for me if you would in the spirit I'm asking it, I'm interested to see what you come up with.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:54 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Again, Element, perhaps I am being obtuse, but I am missing the point of your question, if not the question itself.

Are you asking me whether I would or would not want to, or even deign to, have my children educated?  Do you honestly believe that I would answer that question as "No"?  But just what constitutes an "education" anyway?

I am not trying to sidestep anything here, so please restate your query, and I will try my best to answer it.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:47 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Situation: You're in a city of 4 million Humans, all with individual choice prevailing, and zero coerced 'collective policy' (no govt). There are 1 million children within the city, and the parents all face the problem of educating the children and maintaining incomes, and day to day needs.

Problem: if your children and grand children are not educated sufficiently, to live within an advancing technological society, or at least one in technical continuity, then your next generation is going to die-back, or else live at a lower-level of technical existence and sufficiency, and at lower population levels, with a city in chronic decline.

Question: Presuming you have an income, what are you going to individually choose to do, to sufficiently educate your two-week old daughter or son, to avoid a rapid technical decline, and resulting die-back of population, as well as spreading city dysfunction? What's is going to work best to educate them sufficiently now and longer-term to prevent this and provide them what they need?

This is purely a practical issue how to get that done for your children. Do anything you want, but what do you think is the best way to achieve this, in this situation, indefinitely?

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:36 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

www.K12.com and many others. Education could be fine tuned to individual student needs, less teachers needed, no buildings, no pensions, and consumer control over the curriculum. Get creative! Or has the public school system beat that out of you?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:10 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Sean7K - Would you mind answering the question I posed to akak above, I just want to see what you come up with as a realistic answer, that will actually work, long-term.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:35 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

I have read your question and my solution does work . You make many false assumptions: one, that technology is requisite. Two, that only public education can teach technology. 

Public school systems provide uneven qualities of education. With the internet, the best possible teachers and curriculums could be established with a minimum of workers. This is efficiency writ large. It matters not the size of the town or city. It only requires access- something parents were making possible even when that meant importing a teacher and housing her/him to educate a rural community.

Further, you seem to think technology can only be taught, as if, people are not capable of learning on their own or with mentoring.

Your question is pretty simplistic. Try again...

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:12 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

 

 

"You make many false assumptions: one, that technology is requisite."

Good luck convincing Humanity technology isn't essential, with 7 billion humans on Earth, it sounds incredibly hopey and profoundly unrealistic to say the least.

"Two, that only public education can teach technology."

Incorrect, you have ignored the questions' starting parameters, I said this is a practical issue, and that you could do what ever you liked to solve it, it just has to be realistic and sustainable long term. Nowhere did I mention public education, I actually said the situation involved zero govt. The technical knowledge and skills do have to be taught, by an effective real-world means.

If this were a school exam you just failed.

Internet would be essential of course, but you still haven't addressed the question at any practical level, at all. You are making excuses for why you aren't.

Technical and scientific knowledge learning is stepwise, it requires initially a broad sweep of general theory then a lot of hands on training, as any high tech company will tell you. And most of it in my own county is done within a large network of current and diversely-skilled technical colleges, backed by a whole infrastructure of research and engineering organizations.

It is you who needs to get over this assumption of public-this and public-that. I'm not asking about anything 'public', and this is not about third-parties either, I'm asking what would you actually do to ensure your children are educated? Now if you can't solve it, don't pretend you have. That would be useless. You need to think in realistic terms. Otherwise say, "I don't know".

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:19 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Your first answer is no answer at all. Try convincing... this is not an answer, it is an opinion. 

As for your second part, you do remember apprenticeships or more simply, on the job training? No school is necessary. 

Your problem is you think school exams matter, they don't. Answers are a function of critical thinking and you can't get that at school.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:35 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Yeah, exactly, you have no idea how you would do this, you're completely full of hot-air, don't even have the honesty to have a go at it for real.

You are a dishonest coward at heart, and sprouting ideological hogwash and denial as cover.

Dismissed hollow man.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:44 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

You can't even argue your point? What part of appenticeships and jobs is obtuse to you? Then you resort to name calling? What a poseur...

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:54 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

ha, gawd, you're not the slightest bit serious, and you call me a poseur, face it, you haven't a clue how you would really get your children educated from the cot to adulthood, to the required levels to sustain such a city. It's beyond your means, and you're too full of idealistic utopic drivel to even face that you have no real answers of any kind.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:16 | Link to Comment noless
noless's picture

How's that euro project working out? See any corollaries to the usa?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:43 | Link to Comment Helvetico
Helvetico's picture

Blah, blah, blah. Give me an example of this free market education model at work. ONE example. And no, it can't come from your imagination.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:04 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

You are a perfect example of the public school system. Please point to a functioning nation state that is not populated by slaves.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:18 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Can you show me one non-functioning nation-state where life is better than say, Iceland, Fiji, Peru or Sri Lanka?

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 21:20 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Oxymoron. You do realize what you asked for?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:29 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Your entire question that precipitated mine was nonsense, all I did was turn it around 180 degrees on you, so you could see it. That is the level of congruence and 'seriousness' with which you approached the topic. You just mouthed-off idealism and baloney.

BTW, I had a mixed private and public education over about 18 years, and frankly neither was superior, nor much different from the other, so shove your petty and ignorant biases and assumptions.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:54 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Actually, I wasn't esponding to you originally, I was responding to helvetico,  long threads can be confusing for neophytes. My question was serious. Can you name a western nation state without a majotity slave class? I didn't think so. How can you have a non functioning nation state and do comparisons? Oxymoron. 

As for your education, if this is all you got, you got cheated.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 23:02 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

A non-fuctioning failed-state can still be a recognised state, there have been several of these. Most people would not be confused by that.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 07:17 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Name one. They would not exist by definition. 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:55 | Link to Comment noless
noless's picture

Are you talking about tutors? Like, people chosen for their aptitude in/on a particular subject who are retained based on results?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:19 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Sure, of course.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:37 | Link to Comment James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Here in California, all of em. Teachers, cops, firemen...hell, even our city groundskeepers. We are fucking suffocating beneath these parasitical bastards.

 

Lol, I love how stupid some people are. After the financial crash in 2008 trillions of dollars were sent over to our friends on wall street meanwhile the 24/7 tv coverage was all about x public employee was breaking the budget. 

If only we could get rid of the police, fire dept, teachers etc. America would again be a magical land of freedom and prosperity. 

Gawdamn teachers, ruining everything!

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:41 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

How stupid everyone is. Teachers. Firefighters, cops etc arr ripping off the system just as bad as wall street when you add it all up and throw in healthcare. But the federal workers point to wall street and wall street points to the federal workers, meanwhile, the rest of us get ripped to shreds. Just another typical red team blue team distraction.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:50 | Link to Comment James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

But the federal workers point to wall street and wall street points to the federal workers, meanwhile, the rest of us get ripped to shreds.

It's one thing to 'point at' it's quite another what actually happens. 

When the system was balanced a bit better these issues didn't come up with as much fervor, since the manufacturing industry was obliterated and the wealth of the nation stolen through intentional monetary policy a scapegoat has become necessary. 

The corporate media isn't going to blame itself so labour (federal and otherwise) has become a nice target. 

Complaining about federal workers is like ordering a pizza and having the waiter take a giant shit in the middle of it and you complain about the crust being slightly over-cooked. 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:02 | Link to Comment gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

whats being missed is that there are 1000 SEIU and NEA parasites milking the system for every bankster.  Crime is still a crime, and not going punished.

Case in point Saucon Valley School district, my district, 12 people running for 4 school board openings.  7 are NEA members... Its a contract year.

Average teacher in my district 100K, 20 yr retirement, 2 weeks paid off during the school year, and they want MOAR....

 

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:14 | Link to Comment Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

I was in law enforcement for ten years and I have been in public education for thirty two years.  So, I speak with some experience.

 

You want to know what is wrong with public education.  The answer is simple.   It is the liberal, socialist notion that all children are equal. It is the absolute insistence that each child is a tabula rasa, that every shortcoming he possesses can be attributed to his environment.  It is the blind faith in the politically correct assumption that all we have to do is change the environment and we will change the student.   We will spend a billion dollars on the insane assertion that given the right strategy we can make every music student into another Mozart.

 

We simply refuse to accept the fact that one half the population is below average.  If you insist on educating everyone with standardized instruction and you raise the requirements to the point that you have made it difficult for the average kid, you have doomed half your population to failure.   We insist on telling every student that they are college bound.  We have slighted our vocational programs with this lie. As a consequence of this deception, we have a system that fails half our population.

 

We have built safety nets on top of safety nets .   We have pre intervention and we have post intervention. We have shielded our little darlins from every aspect of their negative behavior.  We have led them to believe that they can act out with impunity.   We have taught them through their entire educational experience that there is always a second chance that some smiling social service person will be there to pick up the pieces and clean up the mess.  It happened every time in their lives until they stepped over the line and killed somebody or turned eighteen.  Then the hammer dropped, and they were utterly devastated.

 

Half our population is on some kind of public assistance.  What did they do to earn that assistance?   For many, nothing, it was simply a matter of meeting the criteria and filing out an application.  Assertions made to the children of those people that you must work to survive falls on deaf ears.  Why should they work?  Their parents don’t work?

 

We have hired the bottom quartile to have children.  Every high school in our county has its own day care center not for teachers, for students.  The unintended consequences of our aid to dependent children has wrecked families and deprived boys of father figures.  The great philosopher Chris Rock was right when he said: “ If you call your grandma mom and your mom Pam, you are going to jail.”

 

I absolutely subscribe to the notion that you cannot look at an acorn and imagine the mighty oak that it might become.  For that reason every child deserves a chance, maybe even a couple of chances. To assume that they are all going to make it is folly.  Nevertheless, if you can read this, some teacher took a chance on you.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:23 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Ping!

Plus one.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:26 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

+1 well said

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:33 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

You make a good points, but you really must look at a bell curve. How can 1/2 the population be below average?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:44 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Sarcasm?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 21:21 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Unfortunately, no.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 21:25 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Well, can you explain then how half of ANYTHING is not, by definition, below average?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 21:57 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

 Intelligence is graded with average equalling 100. A bell curve plots the results with standard deviations. The "average" can be measured many ways, but the bell curve gives the best representation. It includes 63% in the average, 17 1/2% in below and above average, with 1 1/2 % as genius or imbecile. 

You are referring to a "mean". This method is never used for the measurement of intelligence in a population.

To go further, most equate IQ 90 to 115 as average. 115 to 140 above average and genius at 145 and above. This was changed from 150 to 145 recently( why?). More, the IQ test quantifies a type of intelligence: your ability to do well in college. It is a specific type of intelligence test, not a pan intelligence test. 

Does that help?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 22:09 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Yes, I was thinking of the mean, which is what most people mean when they colloquially talk about an average, as in when they use the phrase "half are below average", whereas I think you are using a rather arbitrary definition of "average" as a range.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:15 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

I would suggest that people were hired with a specified benefit package. They never questioned the viability of that package. The Unions pursued these benefits to insure their own compensation, being in the government's back pocket, what did they care? 

The banks and wall street own the government, naturally, they are protected and bailed out, with the cost falling on the infamous "taxpayer". 

We are fighting to protect ideas we thought were important, but are not. 

This is about tyranny, It is about Elites and State police actions, it is about debt slavery. Now, a real education would be useful here, but since you haven't received one, you will need to get one on your own. Probably why they provided a public school education.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:23 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Wrong, I had both private and public education, in multiple locations. Don't avoid different views with silly elite dribble, answer forthrightly or shutup. This is not an ego thing.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:29 | Link to Comment RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

delete

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 20:48 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Did you ever learn to question? 

Silly Elite dribble? Really? Are you that naive and uninformed?

I have answered forthrightly, but you seem to lack understanding. What matters your education, if it is useless for the problems you are confronted with? Education is a lifelong search for meaning, it is not resolved with an advanced degeree. I have multiple degrees, none of which were useful. Why, because the material was propaganda. 

Do you really think a degree in medicine is worthwhile, if all you become is a drug dispenser? We all must choose to be part of the system or not. Have you never thought about creating something better? 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 23:14 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Sean, seriously, why are you unable to talk directly? What does it get you? You intimate you're actually a serious thinker, and all you do is display you aren't. We could have had a discussion, but you actually have to give a damn a topic in order to do that. I made the mistake of thinking you were a person maybe able to communicate seriously, and that's why I invited you also to answer my question to akak, but you are not a serious person, you were shallow and flip, full of your own false misconceptions and not even listening. I can speak to akak and know he won't behave that way, he just doesn't. Same with nmewn, because the difference is that when they discuss things they actually try to examine and also understand in a two way connection. Too bad, but I really don't understand what you think you get from all the song an dance and no honest communication.

Maybe next time.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 07:44 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

The problem with pseudo intellectuals is they think they understand it all, when they haven't got a clue. Blinded by State propaganda, they refuse to consider any ideas that would upset their little world. Ignorance is normal in humanity, but clinging to false concepts indicates a mind incapable of growth. You sir, will never find your way out of the darkness, because you won't look for the door.

My comment above required no response from you, it was not in reply to your previous comments, it stood alone. You chose to rant about your education and how I was wrong, but never said why I was wrong. If you never respond to the statements of a commentor, how can you expect a conversation?

Instead you insult and demean, clueless about why you can't have a "conversation". Talking to you is not much diferent from talking to a tree, with the exception of the insults. I realize it feels good to have your ideas accepted, but if they fail every rational test, they are probably poorly thought out. 

You can choose to learn on this forum or you can solicit approval or do both. What you can't do, is protect your ideas to from argument. It is a child that whines and cries when it doesn't get its' way. Adults accept responsibility for their words. I am sure State employment  hits close to home for you and therefore, can blind you to other points of view, but that does not make those opinions "wrong". If you have an argument, present it or learn, but save you condesencion for somene who cares.

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 11:53 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

That's rich, first I shouldn't answer you, and then I should answer you, all within the same comment - well done!

But for a guy who didn't have a scrap of honesty, forthrightness or worthwhile comment about a simple thought-experiment, a reality-check on your idealistic hearty broth, you sure got preachy about people working their way out of darkness. phft!

You're just another hollow hypocrite with no answers to some basic practical questions, but as usual you still want to bathe in the warm piss of your ideology and ignore what it implies, and its longer-term ramifications. And then you want everyone to think such mental muck will work, or will improve things for the next generations, and bring them into a flowering new age of freedom from want or any imposition on them.

Sorry, no, they will be chewed-up and spat-out as smelly putrid corpses by endless famine and war, due to the inability for the population to do what it needs and what is rational, to cooperate to sustainably survive at current population densities, or anywhere near them.

You guys are off with the fairies, and when/if the system completely capitulates in USA, and freedom and liberty win against tyranny, etc., what is really going to happen will make WWII look like a family tiff. We struggle to stave off that with all the tech and ideology of state coercion, and approximately high-stability now! But after the revolution/collapse comes, it'll all go so much better, and much more economically efficiently too!

No  it  won't.

You have no clue what will come or what you will really need to do. But I do know a very large number are going to starve, if they even live that long, and they are going to coalesce around the first pseudo-state stability that appears for them, and will try to reorganize a quasi-feudal situation again out of pure desperation, and the unavoidable necessity for group conformity within that circumstance, simply to survive. And in a very, very violent way, that will be.

All of your shallow dewy-eyed ideological crap won't help you at that point because ideology only ever generates major problems, and it never solves any of them. It creates insanity in people and prevents them from thinking honestly and practically. And the more radical the ideology, the crazier people become, and the sooner that gets them eliminated.

And as shown above you couldn't even get started with a basic simple honest practical thought-experiment, without all your gobbledygook and denial BS lines trundling out almost immediately. That was really pathetic to watch.

 

FAIL

Mon, 05/13/2013 - 13:34 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Just like a little child, waaa, waa, waa. 

Attempting to classify my political/economic views, without ever discussing them? Just making false asumptions- it seems to be a trend with you.

I have plenty of practical solutions. You name the problem, I have studies and historcal references. They do not include the State. Consequently, you dismiss them, because you have zero vision. Instead, you chain yourself to the State and refuse think outside your little box. Enjoy the view....

Tue, 05/14/2013 - 05:15 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

aww ... you had to come back and have a wee pissy cry, oh dear, that was so cute honey.

Get a life Sean7K, you need to start facing some practical implementation realities as your theories and 'creative' propositions, in as much as I've seen of them, are impractical half-baked laughable fantasies, at best.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:35 | Link to Comment Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

@ James

You're a socialist product of your time.
Hate capitalism?
Then by all means...gtf out of America.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:44 | Link to Comment James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

You're a socialist product of your time.
Hate capitalism?
Then by all means...gtf out of America.

People with a brain will note I mentioned exactly nothing about capitalism on this thread.

But you are correct Gringo, I am a product of my time. The advantage morons like you have is they are timeless, equally at home in the 1500s as current day. 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:57 | Link to Comment Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

When someone online insists on using either appellation of "moron" or "retard", I bow to their limitations. Again, products of their time, limited by the scourage of contemporary "public indoctrination". May I suggest a modest outlay of cash for purchase of a Roget's Thesaurus.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 17:16 | Link to Comment WAMO556
WAMO556's picture

Better to go to the LIBRARY where books are free. And... The liberal education (which is free) rivals that of the finest and most expensive educational institution.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:00 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

James I can only speak to my location, but by me, it's the government workers that are destroying the place. It's not even close.

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 18:05 | Link to Comment Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

Ah, yes, California. 2 pumper engines, a hook and ladder truck, 4 EMT ambulances, a pair of accident investigators and 5 Squad cars at every fender bender. Imagine the traffic jam they could create just by doubling the property taxes!

Whatever happened to the Volunteer systems? They still work very well in the areas that have resisted Union takeovers.

Incrementalism at work. Leviathan has gotten so big now no one can imagine life without it.

We're doomed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq781NLWGZk

 

 

 

 

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 19:25 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Why don't you volunteer to do that? Start a business doing it.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:41 | Link to Comment defender
defender's picture

What percentage of high school graduates can pass a GED test?  How often do you see a fireman actually working?

 

Now, how much are they paid to not perform?

 

Would this, or would this not be considered parasitic?

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 15:47 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Depends if your house and contents are on fire.  Did your job require education and on-going training? Well firemen train and prepare too. See how you like it when there aren't any.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:06 | Link to Comment QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

Well now it has to be said. GFU you idjit. Is the choice over-paid public employees are a scorched earth policy? Public employee legacy costs and pay scales are unsustainable. The gardner for the locale UC campus gets a pension a self-employed producer can only dream off. What cannot continue, will not continue... the parasites fund the polis... Look back when Gray Davis gave the prison guards massive retirements.... Oh wait, if they didnt get that, there would be 10 inmates in my front yard.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:07 | Link to Comment defender
defender's picture

Maybe you didn't understand.  I have no problem with teachers or firefighters or...  I have a problem with parasites.  Does the person actually do work?  Are they paid at a reasonable rate to perform that work?  These are the questions that decide whether the person fall in the "parasite" class. 

You will also notice that following this logic, lawyers and management fall in this class.  That is how you know that the distinction is accurate.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:14 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Which is a bit different to calling them parasites, which kind suggests you totally disapprove of their existence? That would be dumb.

But get this, we wouldn't even be discussing this if just one big-mouth boofhead up the thread didn't hatefully claim they were all just "parasites", which sorta suggests they have no right to exist, and our modern situation does not need them, or need to make sure they are there, when we need them.

Sun, 05/12/2013 - 16:18 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Not all firemen are paid.  I have more sympathy if paid (and unionized) firefighters weren't fighting to destroy VOLUNTEER departments during the all of the down time when they aren't fighting fires.

 

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!