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The Pentagon Admits: The "War On Terror" Will Never End

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Michael Krieger of Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

It is hard to resist the conclusion that this war has no purpose other than its own eternal perpetuation. This war is not a means to any end but rather is the end in itself. Not only is it the end itself, but it is also its own fuel: it is precisely this endless war – justified in the name of stopping the threat of terrorism – that is the single greatest cause of that threat.


- Glenn Greenwald from his recent article:  Washington Gets Explicit: Its “War on Terror” is Permanent

So last Thursday at a hearing held by the Senate Armed Services Committee, we found out what many of us already knew.  That the “war on terror” is never going to end.  Indeed, it was never supposed to end.  This never-ending “war” on a fantastical enemy provides the American oligarch class with too much money and too much power to ever make it worthwhile for the establishment to shut down.  It matters not to them that this civil liberties destroying fraud has been going on for my entire post-college life and, if they have their way, for the remainder of it.  It matters not to them that the “war on terror” itself has done more to destroy the Constitution and vital essence of this nation than any terrorist act ever could.  No, it matters very little indeed.  What matters to them is money and power, and the “war on terror” provides them with boatloads of both.

My favorite excerpts from Glenn’s article are below:

On Thursday, the Senate Armed Services Committee held a hearing on whether the statutory basis for this “war” – the 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force (AUMF) – should be revised (meaning: expanded). This is how Wired’s Spencer Ackerman (soon to be the Guardian US’s national security editor) described the most significant exchange:

“Asked at a Senate hearing today how long the war on terrorism will last, Michael Sheehan, the assistant secretary of defense for special operations and low-intensity conflict, answered, ’At least 10 to 20 years.’ . . . A spokeswoman, Army Col. Anne Edgecomb, clarified that Sheehan meant the conflict is likely to last 10 to 20 more years from today – atop the 12 years that the conflict has already lasted. Welcome to America’s Thirty Years War.”

That the Obama administration is now repeatedly declaring that the “war on terror” will last at least another decade (or two) is vastly more significant than all three of this week’s big media controversies (Benghazi, IRS, and AP/DOJ) combined. The military historian Andrew Bacevich has spent years warning that US policy planners have adopted an explicit doctrine of “endless war”. Obama officials, despite repeatedly boasting that they have delivered permanently crippling blows to al-Qaida, are now, as clearly as the English language permits, openly declaring this to be so.

It is hard to resist the conclusion that this war has no purpose other than its own eternal perpetuation. This war is not a means to any end but rather is the end in itself. Not only is it the end itself, but it is also its own fuel: it is precisely this endless war – justified in the name of stopping the threat of terrorism – that is the single greatest cause of that threat.

In response, I wrote that the “war on terror” cannot and will not end on its own for two reasons: (1) it is designed by its very terms to be permanent, incapable of ending, since the war itself ironically ensures that there will never come a time when people stop wanting to bring violence back to the US (the operational definition of “terrorism”), and (2) the nation’s most powerful political and economic factions reap a bonanza of benefits from its continuation. Whatever else is true, it is now beyond doubt that ending this war is the last thing on the mind of the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner and those who work at the highest levels of his administration. Is there any way they can make that clearer beyond declaring that it will continue for “at least” another 10-20 years?


And then there’s the most intangible yet most significant cost: each year of endless war that passes further normalizes the endless rights erosions justified in its name. The second term of the Bush administration and first five years of the Obama presidency have been devoted to codifying and institutionalizing the vast and unchecked powers that are typically vested in leaders in the name of war. Those powers of secrecy, indefinite detention, mass surveillance, and due-process-free assassination are not going anywhere. They are now permanent fixtures not only in the US political system but, worse, in American political culture.

Each year that passes, millions of young Americans come of age having spent their entire lives, literally, with these powers and this climate fixed in place: to them, there is nothing radical or aberrational about any of it. The post-9/11 era is all they have been trained to know. That is how a state of permanent war not only devastates its foreign targets but also degrades the population of the nation that prosecutes it.

This war will end only once Americans realize the vast and multi-faceted costs they are bearing so that the nation’s political elites can be empowered and its oligarchs can further prosper. But Washington clearly has no fear that such realizations are imminent. They are moving in the other direction: aggressively planning how to further entrench and expand this war.

Newly elected independent Sen. Angus King of Maine said after listening to how the Obama administration interprets its war powers under the AUMF:

This is the most astounding and most astoundingly disturbing hearing that I’ve been to since I’ve been here. You guys have essentially rewritten the Constitution today.” 

Former Bush DOJ official Jack Goldsmith, who testified at the hearing,summarized what was said after it was over: Obama officials argued that “they had domestic authority to use force in Mali, Syria, Libya, and Congo, against Islamist terrorist threats there”; that “they were actively considering emerging threats and stated that it was possible they would need to return to Congress for new authorities against those threats but did not at present need new authorities”; that “the conflict authorized by the AUMF was not nearly over”; and that “several members of the Committee were surprised by the breadth of DOD’s interpretation of the AUMF.” Conveying the dark irony of America’s war machine, seemingly lifted right out of the Cold War era film Dr. Strangelove, Goldsmith added:

Amazingly, there is a very large question even in the Armed Services Committee about who the United States is at war against and where, and how those determinations are made.”

Nobody really even knows with whom the US is at war, or where. Everyone just knows that it is vital that it continue in unlimited form indefinitely.

1984 really was an instruction manual for the people in power.  Terrifying.


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Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:28 | 3586250 Rick Blaine
Rick Blaine's picture

Thanks for the hot tip.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:33 | 3586267 HeavyShadow
HeavyShadow's picture

Not sure 1984 is the guide book, or the message that it keeps happening again and again until it's balanced back.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:34 | 3586271 ACP
ACP's picture

I respectfully disagree with ZH placing a photo from 1984 in the synopsis.

I think a photo from the movie "Brazil" seems a more likely candidate.


Buttle, Tuttle, what's the difference? Just bag 'im!

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:35 | 3586274 HeavyShadow
HeavyShadow's picture

Yeah, the copious amounts of paperwork. You are probably right.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:53 | 3586328 john39
john39's picture

All this, and still people can't see that 911 was an inside job.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:07 | 3586361 The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

The war against a noun...

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:15 | 3586387 HeavyShadow
HeavyShadow's picture

Until everyone has there own free, uninterruped energy supply, enough for life support, then there will be war...and the suppression of such knowledge.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:30 | 3586437 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

War on Language. War on Ideas. War on Instinct.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:34 | 3586453 flacon
flacon's picture

Did you know Nancy Pelosi made a cameo in the movie Brazil? Here's photo proof:

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:01 | 3586509 espirit
espirit's picture

I'm still confused as to who the "terrorists" are.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:11 | 3586535 knukles
knukles's picture

What did you say?
Come with me.
We're going to Room 101

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 02:03 | 3586774 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Actually the 1984 image is very appropriate as the war on terror officially started in 1984. 

In 1984, the Reagan Administration used the term "war against terrorism" as part of an effort to pass legislation that was designed to freeze assets of terrorist groups and marshal the forces of government against them. Author Shane Harris asserts this was a reaction to the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing.[

The war against hidden enemies has been a mainstay of the USA for a lot longer than 1984 though, the labels just change. 

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 06:44 | 3586939 DFCtomm
DFCtomm's picture

The enemy isn't hidden. The enemy is in the open, but you aren't allowed to name it.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:15 | 3586987 General Decline
General Decline's picture

One used to be able to name the enemy on the pages of ZH.... Ah, the good ole' days.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 09:54 | 3587222 PT
PT's picture

I'm not supposed to agree with you two.  But I cannot say you are wrong.  And I like to learn and I don't like ignoring my eyes and ears.  Still, I still think that if we just went after the enemies that are out in the open, and the accessories that support them - judicial, media etc, then it wouldn't matter if you or me are right or wrong, the real enemy would be there for everyone to see.

Edit:  Punish the guilty.  And punish those who refused to punish the guilty when that was their job.  And punish those who try to hide the guilty from justice.  At this point, any debate over who "the enemy" is, is redundant. 

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:58 | 3587257 SamAdams
SamAdams's picture

Yes, Jews are at the "visible" seats of corruption in Finance, Media and are active in undermining the Bill of Rights in Congress.  They are also assisting Janet at DHS, which is a police state power.  These for a lack of a better term, are Bolshevik style, Communistic Jews.  This does not make all Jews bad, but obviously some are a real problem.  At the same time, there are plenty of self proclaimed Christians assisting them to the conscious or unconscious goal.  Personally, I think that Judaism and Christianity have very little to do with the direction of these selfish men and women.  These are facts, not bigotry.  BTW, Zerohedge is part ABC media these days...

Thu, 05/23/2013 - 07:51 | 3591408 PT
PT's picture

So make a hit list and publicize it.  Names, addresses, alleged crimes.  When the world falls over, the little people will fight each other while the instigators party thousands of miles away.  This is the bigger crime that needs to be nipped in the bud.

I'm quite sure that Hitler hit the wrong 6 million "joos".  Perhaps if he had have gone after the 6 million richest bankers instead, he may have got better results.  ( My history knowledge is crap, feel free to enlighten. )

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:33 | 3587013 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

war on terror, much better..seems all the heads of state like others to die for them..clinton, bush, the modern nobility of the EU, (ex english crown prince), in the end the rulers figured out to send their proxy out to fight and die while the elite live on playing the game..once in the USA the congress declared war, today any wall street puppet ruler does it and even keeps it going D dor R ..some in the populace will not support these unlawful wars we have woken up. where is the left denoucement the protests in the streets, the black man saying ain't gonna fight your honkey wars..none to be seen, hypocrits seem to come in jumbo size when on the left.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 11:03 | 3587875 mickeyman
mickeyman's picture

Confess quickly. It will go easier on your credit rating.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:41 | 3586599 TheObsoleteMan
TheObsoleteMan's picture

I'm not confused about who they are, and neither is Julian Assage.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:56 | 3587249 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

you and you and you 2

you and you also

in fact all of you are guilty

of thought crime evil deed.


Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:03 | 3586517 knukles
knukles's picture

There are no Conspiracy Theories for they all become Conspiracy Fact

I've been laughed at and derided for decades for not just that reasoning, but exact phrase....

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:19 | 3586557 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

The only difference between LIBOR and the hidden hand/TPTB is that LIBOR was just a bunch of frat boy punks with no real power.

When you can shut a popular presidential candidate out of an election so as to make him effectively nonexistent, as the mass media did to Ron Paul, and still have the idiot masses defend the establishment and repeat your talking points--now that is real power.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:52 | 3586496 john39
john39's picture

war against humanity.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:10 | 3586531 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

War by the animal world on the civilized world.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:12 | 3586539 knukles
knukles's picture

Ah but the veneer of civilization proves ever so thin

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 00:08 | 3586656 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Granted. Civilization is built on a foundation consisting of millions of years of savagery

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:38 | 3587021 Drachma
Drachma's picture

"The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact."

George Orwell, 1984

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 11:09 | 3587895 illyia
illyia's picture

Back to report from iron mountain, again...

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 05:05 | 3586881 Reptil
Reptil's picture

yes; War on an abstract concept.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 11:04 | 3587879 mickeyman
mickeyman's picture

How far are we from victory in the war on terrror? One million miles

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:17 | 3586992 g speed
g speed's picture

skate boarder---war on life--there -fixed it

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 09:45 | 3587449 auntiesocial
auntiesocial's picture

Osama Bin Laden, being bored and not having enough already to focus on right before 9/11, decides to call his good buddies and tip off the Israelis first so that they can fly to America and document the event and be in perfect position to film the towers coming down not worried that they may tattle tail on him. MAKES PERFECT SENSE. 

ALAN SABROSKY sums it up best, if one of the buildings were rigged, then they were all rigged. 

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:20 | 3586563 TraderTimm
TraderTimm's picture


Don't forget having to pay for your own interrogation, at reasonable interest rates naturally.

(Usually is cut from the theatrical release, but the criterion edition has it in there...)

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 15:00 | 3588976 trembo slice
trembo slice's picture

If anyone has played Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots Kojima tackles the issue of the US military machine and the war economy.  Every game deals with some ethical issue: eugenics, warrantless-surveillance, and the military-industrial complex.  

The War on Terror, like QE, are policies that will not be abandoned.  For when they are, the orb of power shifts from West-East.  The psychos trying to control the world, especially those here in the US, will be patching the hull while the ship is capsizing.  Things will change, but not because of the insightfulness or courage of any politician (save the lifetime of effort by RP).

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:38 | 3586282 max2205
max2205's picture

Mother fucker. Where are the anti war protesters?  Oh wait....they are all democrats. 


Guess we have to wait till we get a Republican president....oh wait....

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:45 | 3586302 HeavyShadow
HeavyShadow's picture

Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of the deeper historical theme of absolute power corrupting.

Though, rules were once written up to keep from assuming such power. Good book that one. Timeless piece. Pity it is eroding in Nevada somwhere.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:07 | 3586519 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture



max2205   "Mother fucker. Where are the anti war protesters?  Oh wait....they are all democrats."

Of course... 

Liberals & DemoCraps and their MSM, congresscritters, and office holders are not biased...

Not in any way! How could you even suggest such a thing!


Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:06 | 3586523 knukles
knukles's picture

I have some uber-liberal buds who have heretofore proudly claimed to be pacifists under Bush, actively demeaning him for his wars, but now finding excuses to support the very same now they're no longer Bush's Fault but owned by O-bomb-bah.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:09 | 3586527 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Yep, typical Lib hypocrites!

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 02:22 | 3586789 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Yep, typical Lib hypocrites!

...written on a post aggregating two anti-war articles written by liberals. 

What should be obvious is there are very few liberals or conservatives out there, mostly there are people who will be whatever is most convenient to the tribe they find themselves within. 

Means 'conservatives' will heartily support non-conservative initiates by Republicans and 'liberals' will find lockstep support for non-liberal initiatives by Democrats. 

If the poltical system weren't a binary it might force people to actually think. Though, probably not. 

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:32 | 3587011 debtandtaxes
debtandtaxes's picture

Obama. The perfect Trojan Horse.

Looks like a good guy. Sneaks in the worst laws by edict. But believed to be capable of  only supporting policies good for minorities as he is a minority himself. And so is never questioned.

Obama is proof that class issues far surpass race issues.


Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:46 | 3587040 tango
tango's picture

The idea of screaming about Bush's wars and not opening your trap under Obama is a classic case of intellectual dishonesty practiced so widely amont the intelligensia.  Deficits of $200 billion were predicted to lead to ruin whereas yearly trillion+ deficits are just fine because we're "helping people".   Ideology trumps reason every time.  There are probably scores of ZH folks who once thought Apple simply a company that made cutting edge expensive products but now - because one of the Tylers has got a bee in his bonnet - suddenly act as if they were the anti-chirst.  Again, ideology trumps reason. 

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 05:13 | 3586887 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

And when they run out of enemies abroad to fight, they'll turn on their own.

Long 2 billion rounds, bitchez!

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 12:27 | 3588272 Saint Tibb
Saint Tibb's picture

The anti war protesters are all in the same place where the deficit hawks went during 2001-2007.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 06:57 | 3586961 GaryNeville
GaryNeville's picture

Of course the war on terror can end - all you have to do is kill everyone and hey presto - its over

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:30 | 3586256 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

the US will go broke long before that happens.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:32 | 3586265 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

No question.  In the decade since 9/11, the USG has virtually bankrupted itself and the islamists have conquered almost all of North Africa.

It's pretty clear who's winning.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:35 | 3586269 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

virtually bankrupted itself?-that's like "kind-of" pregnant- you either is or you ain't

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:45 | 3586276 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

The currency hasn't collapsed yet, I guess was my point. 

While the Pentagon was conquered by the forces of political correctness long ago, they apprently don't even yet seem to realize it.  (Reference General Casey's comments about diversity and enemy combatant Nadal Hassan).

These are ultimately religious wars and islam is a much stronger force than the quasi-marxist, pseudo-religious, materialist nonsense that Western civilization has degenerated into.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:57 | 3586339 john39
john39's picture

Islam is the enemy? Maybe you didn't notice, but central bankers are taking over the entire planet using NATO as the muscle. Islam is the patsy, and you fell for it.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:09 | 3586363 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Last I checked, Nadal Hassan wasn't a banker.  And neither were the 19 Saudis that brought down the Twin Towers. And neither were the islamists who shot down Extortion 17.

Frankly, you're illustrative of the problem I outlined above - an unwillingness to honestly identify and aggressively confront those who wage war against Western civilization.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:13 | 3586380 Bollixed
Bollixed's picture

"And neither were the 19 Saudis that brought down the Twin Towers."

Clever how those 19 Saudis managed to collapse Building 7 just by hitting it with an unscathed Passport...

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:19 | 3586399 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Have you ever been around central government bureaucrats?  Most of them can barely tie their own shoes.

You're giving the USG far too much technical credit where none is due.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:23 | 3586408 Bollixed
Bollixed's picture

Grew up in D.C. Grew up around them. Know a whole shitload of them.


Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:24 | 3586414 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Then you should know better.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:29 | 3586432 Bollixed
Bollixed's picture

I do.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 06:22 | 3586927 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

When confronted with cold hard facts you retreat to "government is too incompetent to pull that off".  What a sad, pathetic, deluded human being you  are.  You are either a complete moron or a pathological liar,  most likely the latter.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:15 | 3586960 DFCtomm
DFCtomm's picture

Islam has over 700 years of bloody conquest and domination. It is a politcal system that outlines it's plan to kill or convert the world in it's holy texts, but you love sick freaks have eyes only for our government. You guys ever think there might be more than one evil conspiring against you at once?

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:18 | 3586994 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

ok, let's call for a crusade /s   btw, more like 100 years of conquest and the rest spent... defending

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 11:06 | 3587793 Sanksion
Sanksion's picture

Check your history. Poitiers (732), Tours (845), Vienna (1683). That's three large scale islamic crusades within europe.

Islam and occidentalism both suck and want to rule the world.

That's a fact. That's why both can't live on the same pale blue dot peacefully.

Get used to it.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:14 | 3586543 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

"Have you ever been around central government bureaucrats?  Most of them can barely tie their own shoes."

Kissinger, Emanuel, Brzezinski, Summers, Greenspan, Bernanke, Perle, Feith, Wolfowitz, et al, what a bunch of incompetent dunces.  Those guys aren't smart enough to pull off anything dangerous.  You're so right.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:35 | 3586588 john39
john39's picture

But they've got that evil thing down cold.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:51 | 3586615 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

I don't trust those guys either.

I'm just making the overall point that I, personally at least, consider them less of a threat to Western civilization than those islamists who are willing to cut Western heads off because their imam issued a fatwa condemning Jersey Shore.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:55 | 3587239 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

Riddle us this: who is purposely flooding every western nation with hordes of Muslim immigrants? Not many Muslims in last I checked. But plenty of another group whose elite also aims for world conquest, albeit has about 40 average IQ points on the Muslims.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 09:07 | 3587299 TheMeatTrapper
TheMeatTrapper's picture

 I, personally at least, consider them less of a threat to Western civilization than those islamists who are willing to cut Western heads off because their imam issued a fatwa condemning Jersey Shore.


This is where I respectfully disagree. Without the traitors among us, the head cutters would never be allowed in our country. Without those among us, they would be no threat to us. They would be exactly what they were in the 40's, 50's and 60's - irrelevant to the average American.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 05:14 | 3586886 Reptil
Reptil's picture

please have a look at this video, it ties a lot of loose ends about the attack on the WTC together: yes it was very much possible to plan this, through the use of compartimentalisation (need to know basis) and the use of drills to put the forces in place to do this.

then this is a good expose of the history of false flags planned and committed by the US Gov.
Webster Tarpley 2006 (he's on about Bush but nothing has changed)

your thesis that islamic fundamentalists even were capable of pulling this off, is based on nothing.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 09:39 | 3587408 Random
Random's picture

They are way past any Northwoods type of scenario. 9/11 explanation lies in a combination of TV fakery, CGI and Boston/Aurora/Sandy Hood actor jobs! The air force stand down was not to prevent the jets from being shot down before flying into the towers (as alleged by the majo , they had to do that to prevent a visual confirmation that there was no plane(s) at all! Also, there were no victims of that attack (at least at the twin towers, for the pentagon they got a 2-for-1 kind of deal, maybe killing the auditor team that expose the 1 trillion $ missing from the DoD). The building 7 was taken down to destroy the evidence for the DoD fraud (and other juicy investigations).

To identify if any event is a false flag i think i came up with a decent way of telling: check the victim's facebook pages. I know it doesn't sound like much but please have patience. If the victim is false their facebook will most likely be populated by other fake "friends", it has to be set up in advance (well, they screw that part kinda regularly and that is a solid in itself, they have to contain some kind of posts, videos, links whatever - to give it a "legit" feel"). And here lies the catch: the problem with having fake accounts is that they can't have the "friends" be connected too much. So they have to generate a fairly large number of fake friends, each with its own list of fake friends. Very soon the numbers get very big (with no possibility of a "dead end" aka no friends, no comments, no links). And this is how you catch them, they will have very few friends and none can say they know any of the folks (regardless of the size of their city/town where they "live").


Just my 2 cents.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 06:46 | 3586945 DFCtomm
DFCtomm's picture

What about the Ft. Hood attack? Honor killings in Texas, and other states? Government commit all those?

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 09:09 | 3587302 TheMeatTrapper
TheMeatTrapper's picture

What about the Ft. Hood attack? Honor killings in Texas, and other states? Government commit all those?

No, but the government, and those that control it, put in place the policies, procedures and structures that guaranteed they would happen.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 10:09 | 3587582 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

The mere fact alone that we are forced to allow dregs like the Ft. Hood shooter to join the US military, and that one will be immediately kicked out of the military or even jailed for criticizing anyone's "race, gender, sexuality or religion," demonstrates the insanity of the entire situation, and that those orchestrating it are actually not Muslim at all.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:19 | 3586957 drdolittle
drdolittle's picture

He was holding the passport out the window and it flew out of his hand.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 09:03 | 3587280 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

He threw the passport like a ninja throwing star, chopped the foundation. They teach that one in the Tora Bora training camps.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:47 | 3587205 Random
Random's picture

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Get you head out of your head mate! Have you checked how many of the 19 Saudis are still alive today? Have you checked if a plane hit any of the towers or the pentagon or the field in the middle of nowhere (with the impact hole present before the "crash")? You are so far behind the curve that i hope you are just trolling or forgot to add the /sarc.

Geez, after all those years and after the shit load of info that is easily available you would think people have gotten wiser by now...

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 15:29 | 3589106 trembo slice
trembo slice's picture

What is Western Civilization anymore?  Though never perfectly implemented, it used to signify a belief in the inalienable rights of the individual, common-law, equality-under-the-law, and commodity-backed money.  What does it stand for today?

The AG openly admits that TBTF banks are TBT prosecute in a court of law, even when known to finance terrorism.  If I donated $1,000 to Al Qaeda I'm sure I would be eating cock-meat sandwich before the transaction went through.  The inequal application of the law has become a trade-mark of this nation (or maybe it has always been).  It amazes me all the shit that has been revealed just in the last few weeks (IRS, DOJ), but, sadly, I'll be more amazed if anyone faces criminal charges or held accountable whatsoever.

Trembling in the face of Muslim-extremism, to me, is like the Lion trembling at the Mouse.

If you really want to eliminate muslim-extremism you must look to tackle it's causes.

(sorry for the long post, but the rest is just pasted from a FB exchange I had dealing with the ideal foreign policy and how to best handle the terrorist threat)

Our foreign policy should be geared to encourage "peace, commerce, and honest friendship." How are these goals achieved? We could end foreign aid to all nations. Foreign aid takes money from the American taxpayer and places it in the hands of foreign governments. Many of whom are unstable regimes (Egypt), and others that are oppressive governments, such as Saudi Arabia. 

I would quit placing sanctions on nations that we disagree with their way of life, or if we (rightfully) condemn their leader. Sanctions cripple the people of a nation, while corrupt governments (with the legal monopoly on the initiation of force) take what is needed to maintain.

The sanctions placed on Iraq between the active hostilities resulted in the death of over 500,000 Iraqi children ( It seems plausible to me that the muslim world is more infuriated with our cavalier attitude towards their right to life than the American way of life. If 500,000 American children died because of sanctions placed upon our nation by a foreign power... I'd be ready for a little payback too. In a transcript to the American People, Osama Bin Laden states as much:

"People of America this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan and deals with the war and its causes and results. Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom. If so, then let him explain to us why we didn't strike -- for example -- Sweden...

No we fight you because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our Nation and just as you lay waste to our Nation, so shall we lay waste to yours. No one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure whereas thinking people when disaster strikes make it their priority to look for its causes in order to prevent it happening again."

I was all in favor of destroying those responsible for 9/11. However, that does not excuse the murder of innocent civilians in Iraq, Pakistan, or Afghanistan. Occupying a nation is a not a proper solution. Letters of Marque and Reprisal can be issued to deal with nation-less guerilla groups, and it is constitutional. It was, after all, a small special ops team that took down the man responsible for 9/11.

Terrorism is a tactic employed by nation-less groups. The "War on Terror" is vague and open-ended to allow the further growth of the State apparatus. As MLK observed, "even when pressed by the demands of any truth, men do not easily assume the task of opposing their governments policies, especially in times of war. There comes a time when silence becomes betrayal." The War on Terror has brought with it legislation that destroys the Bill of Rights (with the PATRIOT ACT, the NDAA, CISPA).

I am not in favor of destroying American freedoms, American lives, and American families as we continue implementing counter-productive policies. We can achieve much more in peace than we can through war. When we stop destroying innocent life and refrain from subsidizing oppressive governments, I believe the causes that lead to muslim-extremism will be removed from the table.

In a nutshell -- Respect self-determination of other nations and peoples. Bring our troops home, defend this nation, and mercilessly punish those that would infringe upon the sovereignty of the People of the United States.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 00:10 | 3586658 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

Obviously never occured to you that it's possible to have more than one enemy.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 06:46 | 3586946 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

Let's tie this together. Its interesting the "enemy" of the world is the one religion that doesn't charge interest.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:29 | 3587007 General Decline
General Decline's picture

Be careful... you're getting awfully close to that 900 lb. gorrilla.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:01 | 3587078 tango
tango's picture

Bastiat,  Don't  criticize Islam on ZH.  For some reason, it's viewed favorably despite an absymal record on rule of law, secularism, pluralism, treatment of women and contributions to the arts and science.   Mentions the authoritarian nature of the regime and it's instant answer:  'them bankers are up to no good."  As if the malicious actions of sociopaths running financial institutions excuses Islam and its actions.

I taught English to Arabs for years and discovered that all Muslims are fundamentalists in the sense that they believe the Quran is without error, that Muhammed talked to god and not some tribal political leader and that what Islam says must be true.  There are no Unitarian Islams.  When oil runs out, the arc from Morocco to Indonesia will descend to feudalism as they fall further and further behind the rest of the world.  Sad

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:15 | 3587106 rustymason
rustymason's picture

The group that has done more to totally destroy the U.S. than any other, the group that is in total charge now of the MSM, Hollywood, the major banks, and all the choke points in government, the group that worked tirelessly to throw open our borders to the Muslims and other third world invaders, the group that demands total and unending war on us and the rest of the world, the group that is not allow to be named -- that is the proximate enemy of America.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:13 | 3587108 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

he wasn't criticizing Islam, imo. actually his comment resembles something several people have said over the centuries. Including Adolf Hitler, btw but if I remember well even Churchill said something similar

you are criticizing Islam, imo. and pointing at all the right things to critizice, imo. though it's imho wrong to call it Islam - more a prevalent culture in predominantly islamic countries now (then before, culture, art and scientific knowledge was spread by Islam)

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:22 | 3587129 tango
tango's picture

LOL  I heard one wag say it best - College professors say it's not Islam, Politicians say it's not Islam, Liberal save the world types assure us it's not Islam.  But Muslims confirm over and over that yes, it is in the name of Islam that they fight, institute controls and take over nations. Islam can change (it did so in th 11th-14th centuries) but only by becoming more open, tolerant and inclusive - something that is distinctly non-Islamic.  

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 09:52 | 3587470 Random
Random's picture

You are misguided in criticizing Islam inho, not because it has no faults, but because it is the MSM's wiping boy. That should be a big warning sign right there. Think of who or what you cant criticize and there's the real boss (or at least the bigger boss). When you reach a boss that you can't even think of criticizing,'re getting very very close.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:37 | 3587172 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Standard apologist excuse: "It isn't Islam that mutilates the genitals of girls. It isn't Islam that commits honor killings of sisters or daughters. It is the culture." 

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 10:12 | 3587596 ATM
ATM's picture

Authoritarians.... BINGO!

Authoritarians love other Authoritarians. They all have someting in common!

The Muslim Authoritarians, the Communist/Socialist/Feudalists whatever.


The use of terror as a tactic was to elicit a response. Look around and see what that response has been to "attacks on our freedom". They do hate our freedom and used the very best tactic to get us to enslave ourselves.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:50 | 3586313 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Inasmuchas 99.999% of the money is virtual.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 16:20 | 3589275 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

I must tell, that is a good one.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:05 | 3586522 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

"The Islamists have conquered.." lmao.. right.

Consider this factual statement: Mossad infiltrated every major Islamic group in the Middle East years ago.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:06 | 3587087 tango
tango's picture

Thanks for the documentation of that "fact".  LOL   I can come up with a few.  "Tyler is a double agent in the financial wars."   "Bush signed an agreement with the aliens to use human test subjects"   "There are tunnels through the planet that connect all the major cities but this is only known to a few You tube subscribers."   "Powerful people control the world's resources and have plans for global domination but they're so fucking stupid that they tell the details to guys who sit around in their boxers bitching on ZH all day."

Have a nice day.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 09:17 | 3587333 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

You're right, Mossad has done no such thing. They've spent the last 50 years and billions of US aid on passing out chocolate bars to Palestinian children.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:56 | 3586334 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

empires are so good at being their own worst enemy - like the criminal who pushes their scheme farther and farther until everyone hates them and their odds of getting caught (and punished) simply explode 

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:16 | 3586549 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Societies are their own worst enemies.

They are made up of the wrong kind people.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 00:22 | 3586684 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

That's what the communists say.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:09 | 3587097 tango
tango's picture

That sounds so...infantile, something my five year old granddaughter would say.  Considering that societies are people like you and me and our neighbors what is the "right kind of people"?

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 03:54 | 3586850 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Bingo Otto. The US WILL go broke before they can expand their terror wars to many more nations. The Dollar as reserve currency is the ONLY factor allowing this global war to continue. Lose that status for the dollar and there is NO money to fund any of this shit.

As I see above, people are still playing the Liberal versus conservative game. Tell me, Since Bush and Obama are from those supposed different camps, what have they done different? Not much.

THIS IS A ONE PARTY STATE! For fuck's sake, get your head around that and wake up!

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 20:11 | 3589931 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

well said jack attack

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:44 | 3586261 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

It's certainly true that a "war on terror" can never be won.

One can wage war, and win, against "islamists", or "communists", or "national socialists", or "neo-marxists", or "socialists".

One cannot wage war, and win, against a tactic.

Until that thinking gets straightened out, Western civlization will continue accelerating toward its own Tarpeian cliff.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:47 | 3586308 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

More than just a tactic. A damned effecient one!

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:25 | 3586416 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

The tactics have clearly worked in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.  No question about it.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:56 | 3586332 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

"Catch 22.  It's the best there is."

Sibel Edmonds sums it up nicely:

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 00:50 | 3586728 PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

Excellent interview! Thanks for posting this.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:32 | 3586263 caimen garou
caimen garou's picture

I thought we were at war with everyone , were'nt we?

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:13 | 3586532 knukles
knukles's picture

Nah, just everybody who's not on our side.
Now pledge fealty to our Leader and his Thoughts

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:37 | 3586266 Cdad
Cdad's picture

War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.


It's all right here--------->

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:42 | 3586298 Rory_Breaker
Rory_Breaker's picture

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:34 | 3586272 notadouche
notadouche's picture

War on Drugs, War on Poverty, War on Hunger, War on Terror... Which one of these "wars" ever ends or even subsides?  The end reuslt is in fact just a de facto war on the american taxpayer.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:37 | 3586280 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

we haven't won a war since 1945

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:58 | 3586341 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

We haven't been in a declared war since 1945.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:43 | 3587198 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Exactly! Because if we declared war it would be expected that we would win and be done with it.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:59 | 3586342 Umh
Umh's picture

Winning would result in a lack of funding!

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:59 | 3586344 john39
john39's picture

Only the bankers won that war, like most all wars.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:41 | 3586602 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

You haven't won a war single handed since 1899 when you licked Cuba.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 00:07 | 3586654 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

Not actually true.  The US quickly won its wars against Saddam and the Taliban.

Then Bush decided to get in the "nation building" business, which the US has lost.

In both cases, having demolished the incumbent regime, the US should have looked for a similar replacement, told them that if they cause trouble for the US they'd go the same way as their predecessors and then left.

But the government that is destroying a long established nation in the US decided it was competent to "build a nation" somewhere else out of warring tribes with no national sentiment or democratic history.

The US didn't lose the wars, its politicians lost the stupid "nation building" nonsense.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 00:20 | 3586677 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Western conceptions of civilization aren't even remotely compatible with islamist notions of civilization. 

Not sure what it's going to take for folks to realize that.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:15 | 3587113 tango
tango's picture

There they go again with the down arrows of ignorance.  You made the distinction of "Western" concepts and this is important.  There are several civilizations - Muslim, Chinese, African, Indian, Buddhist, etc but not all hold similar values.   In the West we have evolved to support secularism, pluralism, education, science, the rule of law and the sublimation of church to State.  Islamic societies have no such distinction because the State is not a separate entity but simply a part of Islam.  

The flight from Islamic nations of folks from every other religion is telling and the best evidence of Islam's ability to cope with the modern world.  Either Islam will have its Reformation and become self-critical or it will continue to fall further behind the rest of the world. 

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 09:26 | 3587356 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

So they stay in their lands and we stay in ours. Problem solved. Unless, of course, you are a small hyperethnocentric minority who seeks to play Islam and the West against each other for your own benefit.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:40 | 3586289 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"The end reuslt is in fact just a de facto war on the american taxpayer."

Plus one.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:59 | 3586343 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Then there's the silent wars - the war on the middle class, the war on the Constitution, the war on capitalism.... 

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:52 | 3586624 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

And the truly transcendental ones, i.e. War on Souls, War on Dimensions, etc.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 08:17 | 3587118 tango
tango's picture

Obama has been conducting a War on Business of any type except cronyism.   You could even say he has been conducting a War of Wealth so desperate is he to redistribute our money to the "have nots".

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:23 | 3586568 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

It's a war by the mostly non-productive and the mostly destructive on the mostly productive.

Just as it's always been.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:38 | 3586283 rlouis
rlouis's picture

How to lose a state/nation/empire and a war in one easy lesson: perpetual war.




Wed, 05/22/2013 - 00:18 | 3586674 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

They're in desperation mode.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:39 | 3586288 nmewn
nmewn's picture


Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:41 | 3586292 ChacoFunFact
ChacoFunFact's picture

Simple, shut down the pentagram. Gon.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:41 | 3586294 nidaar
nidaar's picture

Naturally, it will never end, because it's never started in the first place. "War on terror" is a placeholder between the collapse of the Iron curtain and the next big enemy to be presented to the masses, while supporting the ponzi beast and feeding it grow more.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:41 | 3586295 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

How will the war on terror ever end?  Will terror ever surrender?  When you create a faceless, nameless, hypothetical enemy, then the war will never end.

USA spends more than a trillion dollars a year on its military.  That level of spending will ensure that there will always be wars to justify that level of spending.  The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan will cost $4 to $6 trillion compared to the $738 billion for Vietnam in 2011 dollars.  

Welcome to the eternal war for eternal peace.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:43 | 3586299 world_debt_slave
world_debt_slave's picture

The banks/money changers have always been at war with the world populace.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:47 | 3586307 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Fucking war nation. Why 20 years? Because a generation will have passed and the youth will grow up accustomed to being at war. It will be their normal. If WE don't fucking do something WE have doomed our kids and grand kids.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:52 | 3586322 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

Indoctrination Dr. Engali. For a PsyOp to be truly effective it must cross generations. The insane are truly running the asylum. Megalomaniacs and Psycopaths.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:15 | 3586546 knukles
knukles's picture

Worse, Sociopaths

Psychopaths don't understand the difference.
Sociopaths know but  just don't give a shit.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:33 | 3586586 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Subhuman covers both very nicely.


Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:05 | 3586352 newengland
newengland's picture

Far off in some foreign land, a country boy dies, believing in his homeland, and when he comes home...what then? 

The NDAA, the Patriot Act, naming him as a potential terrorist...while the CONgress and lobbyists and un-Federal no-Reserve Board make millions, billions, trillions with their unregulated otc derivatives.

There has never been a time in the history of the USA when it has been at war for so long abroad, and so few CONgressmen have served in the military.

They serve the un-Federal no-Reserve Board, the old money masters of Britain and Europe. The Nazionists.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:10 | 3586372 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

They serve their Banking Overloards.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:37 | 3586446 newengland
newengland's picture

'They' defend the man stood next to them. Bring the man home alive.

This is how venal hateful politicians send good men to war, and forsake them, so cowards at home can feel safe in their beds.

The Nazionist Goebbels said no man would go to war unless he thought his own family was under threat.

See Operation Gladio for an example of how this works.

You are most ungrateful for those who die so that you may vote, and you vote for war. Pet.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:06 | 3586359 msmith9962
msmith9962's picture

I was perusing The Art of War not long ago.  I think the US is doing everything it says not to do.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:29 | 3586433 newengland
newengland's picture

First reckon, then risk. Sun Tzu.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 11:35 | 3588001 Sanksion
Sanksion's picture

One advice is actually operated succesfully by the US : War is based on deception.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:44 | 3586609 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

If we start to pay attention to the news and international affairs around the age of 12 or 13, the only people with a clear memory of the pre war era are over 25.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:58 | 3586315 newengland
newengland's picture

1984 was meant to be a warning, but yes, you are right, it is the powerbrokers' playbook.

Orwell who was dying when he wrote NineteenEightyFour was determined to finish his book, as a warning. He was a Young Socialist, but chose to defect, and expose the hateful ways of the beast.

George Orwell, born Eric Arthur Blair, a very nice boy from Oxfordshire, a rural community.

Stalin killed the kulaks. Mao enslaved the countrymen. Mussolini hated the ordinary people, as did Hitler.

Democraps and Repugnants do the same.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:56 | 3586501 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

You should try reading some real first hand accounts of Russians, Chinese, Italians and Germans (as in those with German blood) who actually lived under Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Hitler.  You'd be amazed at how reality differs from the "THEY'RE ALL THE SAME" narrative that the mass media has fed us for all these years.

Wed, 05/22/2013 - 07:12 | 3586966 drdolittle
drdolittle's picture

Incredible book and so prescient as was brave new world. Perpetual war, surveillance, drones, double talk, wall sized tvs (addin another author) all here now. Drug you up with some ssris, free love and distraction. They were both right. Incredible foresight written about a half century or more ago.



Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:52 | 3586319 cdskiller
cdskiller's picture

No further proof is needed that 9-11 was an inside job than what it has led to.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:04 | 3586351 robochess
robochess's picture

Wrong... a shitload (more than just saying so) of verifiable facts are necessary.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 23:49 | 3586616 Telemakhos
Telemakhos's picture

Whether or not 9/11 was an inside job is less relevant than what has happened in the intervening years. The subsequent erosion of civil liberties was criminal in itself, and that's a crime perpetrated against the entire nation rather than three thousand people.  If 9/11 was an inside job, the same people are responsible for both, and holding them accountable for their latter acts will also hold them accountable for the former. If the depredations on the American way of life, turning the peace of the republic into a so-called battleground (thanks, McCain), are the result of opportunism after a truly foreign attack, then holding the people responsible for those depredations is still just and salutary. Either way, the important thing now is to restore liberty by rolling back the PATRIOT act, NDAA, and all the secret wiretappings and shadowy surveillance, disbanding or fragmenting the institutions of that surveillance (TSA, Homeland Security in general), eliminating unconstitutional orders and laws that infringe on the bill of rights (especially the first, second, and fourth amendments), and, perhaps most importantly, reversing the spiritual changes that have swept over the country and made its citizens proud of things called "predators" and "hellfire." Nothing will bring back the lives lost to past attacks, whoever may have caused them, but we can still leave to the future a legacy that loves honor and freedom. It's time to get over 9/11: there is urgent work to do in the present.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:54 | 3586325 Fuku Ben
Fuku Ben's picture

Note this was 1984

Messaging from above to the sheeple?, predictive programming?, the band was filled with geniuses I doubt it

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 21:53 | 3586326 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

Got to keep killing or there's no profit in manufacturing weapons after all. BTW, all of you report to the nearest FEMA camp for "re-education" and "adjustment."

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:16 | 3586390 erg
erg's picture

Allay all your fears, copious amounts of GMO gruel await you.

Tue, 05/21/2013 - 22:26 | 3586420 HeavyShadow
HeavyShadow's picture

Don't ask for sugar to sweeten it. They don't like when you ask for that.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!