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Grant Williams: "Do The Math!"

Tyler Durden's picture


In a masterclass of what is 'really' going on in the world (as opposed to what we are told/spoon-fed on a daily basis), Grant Williams (of Things That Make You Go Hhhmm infamy) provides a must-watch presentation. Starting from the premise (unusual in this day and age) that the laws of mathematics are inviolable ("if it makes no sense, it is nonsense"), the Aussie investment manager sets out his own set of philosophical 'problems' that the world of 'markets' seems incapable of grasping. In a chart-filled extravaganza, Williams ranges from "Problem 1: If the global economy is stalling, Europe is in recession, China is slowing and growth is seemingly impossible to generate, what are equity markets doing at all-time highs?" to "Problem 7: The Gold Price and The Price of Gold are mutually exclusive" leaving the participant questioning everything Bob Pisani would have us believe warning in conclusion that gold is critical and "beware suppressed volatility."

07:26 Williams' Problem 1: If the global economy is stalling, Europe is in recession, China is slowing and growth is seemingly impossible to generate, what are equity markets doing at all-time highs?



16:24 Williams' Problem 2: If Chinese manufacturing has stalled, demand for raw materials is slumping, imports and exports are declining, and Chinese power consumption is falling, how is China's GDP growing at 7.7%



20:40 Williams Problem 3: France!?



33:21 Williams' Problem 4: If honesty is the best policy, then is dishonest the second best policy?


33:25 Williams' Problem 5: If there were no sponges living in the oceans, would the oceans be deeper?


33:30 Williams' Problem 6: Paul Krugman? Really?


33:35 Williams' Problem 7: The Gold Price and The Price of Gold are mutually exclusive



36:45 Summary

It's a holiday weekend, grab the iPad (and 2 beers), sit in the lawn-chair and watch/listen - time extremely well spent...


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Sun, 05/26/2013 - 14:30 | 3599888 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

"If honesty is the best policy,
then is dishonest the second best policy?"

Honesty being the best policy is not
how central bankers think.

Rather, "What could we say
that they would believe us?"

Or, given our current PASSIVE
response to current criminality,
"What could we say that would
not enrage them enough to act?"

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 15:02 | 3599942 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

Eventually "the point of recognition" is reached in a ponzi.....this will be the crossing of the rubicon for a mass of fiat when the realization that there is no safety in their digital/paper game.....and trillions try and find the last few ounces of gold and silver deliverable......if any of you think your little game in this rigged equity market has been an ascent to this point in time, then you had better have your seatbelts on when the music stops for the fiat ponzi and the search for physical metal begins in earnest

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 15:28 | 3599988 Dark_Horse
Dark_Horse's picture

Yes, but it's not going to be the "the end".

The implosion will likely be spun to advance to the next stage.

Hegelian dialectic is the map.


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 15:31 | 3599992 fourchan
fourchan's picture

only the fed buying all the bad assets and putting them on the us taxpayer and giving the culprit banks free cash to buy the market matters.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:19 | 3600029 macholatte
macholatte's picture



Why do they always have such crappy sound?

If they talk real fast, does that mean they're smart or just a crappy speaker?

If they talk real fast and have crappy sound does that mean the presentation is jibberish?


You know there is a problem with the education system when you realize that out of the 3 R's only one begins with an R.

Dennis Miller

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:58 | 3600104 espirit
espirit's picture

$85 Billion + $85 Billion + $85 Billion +

$85 Billion + $85 Billion + $85 Billion +

$85 Billion + $85 Billion + $85 Billion +

$85 Billion + $85 Billion + $85 Billion +

ad infinitum...

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 17:06 | 3600118 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

The answer key for Williams' "problems" (spoiler):

It's a ponzi. 

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:04 | 3600526 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture


Or, given our current PASSIVE
response to current criminality,
"What could we say that would
not enrage them enough to act?"

That may have been brilliant.  Too busy watching Dancing with the Stars to know for sure.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 03:02 | 3600605 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

I was taught that honesy is not the BEST policy.

It is the ONLY policy.

If honesty is merely the 'best' policy, then the door is open to the whole range of situational ethics, which is precisely what our government and banking leaders are guided by.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 03:21 | 3600637 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Graph is show bifurcation. Bifurcation beyond all recognition as old marine is say.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 17:53 | 3600185 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

"Readin', 'Ritin', 'Rithmetic"

Watch'a talkin' 'bout?

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:37 | 3600503 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:08 | 3600028 Seer
Seer's picture

"The implosion will likely be spun to advance to the next stage."


Everything comes after something.

If you're indirectly implying that there will be a next up-leg then you (and others thinking the same) will be in for a surprise.  Without growth there can be no leveraging.  And without leveraging there's really no way to sway/prod/push people around so as to profit off of them.

Further, the reversal to be wrought by economies-of-scale-in-reverse will devastate much of the platform that would be expected to allow stepping up higher.

"Men argue, nature acts." - Voltaire

"Whether we and our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory, and a sterner sense of justice than we do." - Wendell Berry

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:30 | 3600063 prains
prains's picture

Why is Tyler vapourizing comments ???

non rascist, factually correct, non libel comments are now being corozined on ZH....without notice or comment, they just vanish. I just lost one this weekend on the Bill Black article....poof, gone nowhere to be seen.

all the comment made was a correlation to Anderson Acoounting, Ken Lay and Enron being examples of what Black was talking about.......ZAP

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:41 | 3600082 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

I've asked Tyler to "retire" a few of the posters that I personally find reprehensible...

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:54 | 3600095 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture



Maybe you inadvertently said something about 'Bangladeshi's' [who are roughly 2% of the worlds population]...

You see... From now forward... Every comment that everyone makes is subject to inspection by the PRE-CRIME unit of the thought police... Very soon ~ francis_sawyer may be retired for something that he might possibly be thinking... Dog forbid if I ever accidentally misspell a word or anything...

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 17:08 | 3600107 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture


   The Mormons are under 2% of the US population, as are...

   I smell some great polygamy jokes, and there's always the Angel Moroni.  We could work with that;)

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 17:55 | 3600189 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

I hear a trumpet!


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:59 | 3600520 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

dudes, play it out!  it's a juicy space to shine the spotlight on, particularly if 'they' are aiming for office(s) - bad enough they use their precious god-money-tithes to sway voting issues, then lie about it, only to be outed later.

let me give ya a push - Masonic symbols in their temples, also in the temple ceremonies, and special garments for the worthy.

and of course, there's the new Utah data center, set up in the state with over 20% of their people on anti-depressants,

Utah has long been the nation’s capital of happy pill popping, with its citizens twice as likely to be on anti-depressants than the general U.S. population.

perfect storm, hmm. . .

((don't ban me bro!))

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 11:57 | 3601206 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

You forgot to mention that the majority of the pill poppers are women. Seems to me those religious leaders prefer their women to be of the docile " Stepford wife" mentality rather than fiery free thinkers. Simply being uteri with legs must be a bit stressful. It appears America thinks everything can be solved with pills.


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 19:59 | 3600308 PhilofOz
PhilofOz's picture

Francis, I thought you had already been lost to ZH for your enlighening politically incorrect comments. Have you just been reigned in instead?  Maybe some think whispering and likely distorting truthes amongst each other is better than open debate. I think time will put pay to that notion.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:09 | 3600457 prains
prains's picture


what i find interesting is the corozining of comments that aren't false and aren't libel..... anderson accounting no longer exists. ken lay is in prison and enron is bankrupt, what the fuk is wrong with that comment??? Their actions have all been proven in a court of law.

ZH thought police at least need to clarify


Has it come down to saying Ken Flay, Fanderson Accounting and Fenron ?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 01:33 | 3600610 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

Maybe Tyler should ask what makes America great.....

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:57 | 3600103 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

i personally find posters who call authorities to "retire" other posters they personally find "reprehensible" reprehensible.

does that mean i have a right & responsibilty to ask you to "retire"?

serious question.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 19:00 | 3600259 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Right on.  It means we should all flag that gay dude;)

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 20:58 | 3600386 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"i personally find posters who call authorities to "retire" other posters they personally find "reprehensible" reprehensible."

Plus another, I'm number fifteen.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 21:31 | 3600423 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



"The posters who were responsible for having the other posters sacked, have been sacked."

s/ The Management


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 21:39 | 3600437 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Now wouldn't that be a

Commenters turning in other commenters, only to have their commenting privileges revoked.

A grand scheme of the Tyler's to ferret out the subversives within...why spend time looking for them, just have freedoms enemies come to you ;-)

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:39 | 3600504 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

Hey Newman, see something, say something!



Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:45 | 3600510 nmewn
nmewn's picture


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:10 | 3600527 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

To paraphrase Janet Nepolitano, "The Zerohedge informant system worked." 

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 17:39 | 3600160 lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

'I've asked Tyler to "retire" a few of the posters that I personally find reprehensible.'   oh, god, i hope that doesn't mean me.   'Reprehensible" is my middle name.   when a person gets as old as i am, we blurt out all sorts of thoughts ..... MOSTLY TRUE ! 

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 17:50 | 3600177 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Well, I got run out of Turdville (TFMR) after being one of the staunchest goldbugs on the site, so you never know.

Why Lennon Hendrix got booted off ZH is still a mystery to me. 

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 17:57 | 3600191 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

I've said some rather bombastic things but never noticed a comment deleted.

Perhaps it's because I'm bombastic ;-)

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 04:33 | 3600659 i-dog
i-dog's picture

I had one deleted a week ago that was [tastelessly] critical of Alex Jones. Go figure!!

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 18:40 | 3600236 BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

Do you KNOW that LH got booted?  Or are you speculating due to a drop-off in posts?

I haven't seen Trav on here in ages (although that one doesn't surprise me)... 

Who else is MIA?

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 19:29 | 3600284 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Yes, I do know because I talked to him on the phone a few weeks ago. He's a friend of mine and I even had beers and shots of whiskey with him last summer in Portland, OR. 


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 20:40 | 3600362 BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

That blows. He and I had some great conversations on here and I never recall him coloring outside of the lines.

If you are in contact with him, ask him to reach out. My username @

Thanks Bay.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 00:09 | 3600570 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Will do bro. 

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 21:34 | 3600431 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



Here today; gone to Maui...


[Don't Ban me Bro!!!]

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:21 | 3600480 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I just don't understand how you guys can get banned while I continue to be free to post.  I'm one of the more if not the most abrasive non-anti-PM trolls at Turd's site, but I've never even been asked to tone it down by PM or given a temporary ban.  Much the same goes for here, though I don't post as much here any more.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:30 | 3600493 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

wasn't the tale more about clubby "speak-easy" zones off the main page, and massive indignant sulks re: Ivars being "allowed" to post his charts & opinions, aka "Troll Patrol"?  with Christy-PirateLady regularly throwing tantrums, and others "supporting" her?

yeah, I think that's how the story went. . .


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:35 | 3600549 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Come to think of it, I think that is what happened.  

Though the point remains, as I pointed out that the mad mod lady was out of control and called for her to be fired or disappear from the comments on more than one occasion.  That said, I didn't get into a direct argument with her, so maybe that is the difference.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:46 | 3600559 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

aye, that was another branch on the tree felled, the mod-people. . . the Xty stuff pre-dated that, from the beginning of Ivars posting in the main thread, much whining & wailing to "take it to a forum!!" and leave the main thread free for the serious competition spam for "first place" in hat tips - it was pretty juvenile, and it was allowed to go on way too long, pure high skool cliques revisited. . . that Ivars eventually started showing up well placed in the hat tips was entertaining. . .

but not entertaining enough to check in regularly.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 00:06 | 3600568 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I am now apologizing to you for correcting me about TFMR. You were right, I was wrong. Yes, the Mod's were ridiculously bad over there. 

And Ivars didn't know shit about gold or silver, but that's another story.


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 00:30 | 3600576 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

not so sure what you're crediting me for "correcting" - but no worries?

the whole gig at TFMR fell apart pretty quickly once he moved from the original blog-space - in my opinion of course - too many people competing for attention off topic, that "hat tip" system just encouraged a lot of "factions" which ended up with music vids, cartoons, yadda yadda. . . the mods we are in agreement about.

lol re: Ivars - he's a physicist who was using theory to create his own charts, trying to see patterns & methods based on his own training, not based in a controlled criminal market. . . you have to admit, he was mercilessly hounded by madam for no other reason than attempts to control the threads. . . that he was also Latvian(?) with English not his first language also lent to the mis-understandings at times.

BoP - respect, even if we don't always agree.


edit:  was just remembering, those mods deleted huge swathes of posts sometimes, with no reasoning or explanations, just *poof*  down the memory hole. 


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 00:48 | 3600594 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture know CA, I was actually one of the only people to reach out to Ivars on the FED, COMEX, JPM, etc...and other issues on gold. He didn't know any of that stuff. We agreed to disagree.

Anyhow, I have no hard feelings towards the guy, especially looking back at the wreckage of TFMR and where it is these days. And when I found out that Mod Jane had intercepted my personal emails to Turd, and used them to discredit and insult me, well....that was pretty much it for me. Oh well....keep moving on brother.

Peace and Aloha, 

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 01:49 | 3600616 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

wow, I had no idea about the intrusion into personal emails- that's wild. . . though believable, given the "authority" the mods were given.  I only looked in on occasion after a lot of my posts got deleted from a forum thread gone sour, even though there was no reason to, they were simply part of the conversation at the time, one that got heated much further along. . .

and yes, Ivars wasn't, shall we say, classically trained in the Fed marketeering - which was kind of why I liked him, he took a lot of guff with grace early on, moved his posts to a forum, and others followed him - some to cause "trouble" and again posts were disappeared - he just seemed like one of those academics who was eager to share his theories / experiments.

you know me, odd ones out always appeal, heh - on that note, say heya to the LennonHendrix, we didn't exchange much, but he was a personality I always read!

be well.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:51 | 3600832 DrkPurpleHaze
DrkPurpleHaze's picture

The story behind the story is quite interesting, LOL.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 09:48 | 3600915 Zoltan
Zoltan's picture

Stolen identity... the lowest form of internet life.

Why would you impersonate a respected poster on another site by stealing their name and avatar?  Get a life.

Duney?  MathMan? Mushroom?



Mon, 05/27/2013 - 09:53 | 3600933 tmosley
tmosley's picture

DrkPurpleHaze has EXPLICITLY stated that he does not post here using that handle.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 19:40 | 3600296 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I have no clue either way...


I'll speculate by saying that I don't think these people [ALL] have been 'booted'... I'd say it's all a silent protest... Frankly ~ I'm rather inclined to become a silent protestor myself, but not before attempting to illustrate how the latest maneuver EXACTLY fits the pattern of many things that I have been questioning all along...

Conspiracy Theory becomes Conspiracy Fact [in a sense]...

What's furthermore interesting to me is to witness in real time how many long time "Fight Club" badass wannabees have quickly morphed themselves in to the new cotillion...

"It's true ~ This man has no penis"

~Dr. Venkman

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 19:56 | 3600305 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

As one astute fellow commented two weeks ago,

  all we're being asked to do is to ignore the elephant in the room.


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 21:47 | 3600446 american eyedol
american eyedol's picture

francis i'd pay to have a beer with you

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:10 | 3600470 espirit
espirit's picture

I'd also buy a round.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 00:44 | 3600592 Creepy Lurker
Creepy Lurker's picture

I'm in.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:13 | 3600762 saulysw
saulysw's picture

They changed TFMR so you can not log on with your Google account any more. That was it for me, I don't feel like making a dedicated TFMR account. So now I just read sometimes and do not comment.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 01:21 | 3600607 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Just 'cause you're taking roll call, I'll raise my hand. (To declare that I'm not MIA, that is.)  

Not booted or even mildly censored yet, I've just been busy with other matters.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 02:00 | 3600620 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

good to see you around. . . kinda hoped things evened out, as they seemed to be heating up when I last caught you posting.

incoming month holds lots of tension, take it easy now. . .

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 03:39 | 3600647 awakening
awakening's picture

Still here, happy to repeat myself also:

ZH is no longer "zero" hedge, for they have hedged comments on those two matters and thus conformed to the existing paradigm of "political correctness".

Like the fictional character of the movie in question, they've shot themselves in the neck and cut themselves short from the humble origins of this site (nevermind my account registration date, I followed the site off and on prior to that).

I dare say this site has been COMPROMISED.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 20:56 | 3600383 Promethus
Promethus's picture

Well that is the point of political correctness. To silence those who don't share your enlightened opinions.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:20 | 3600537 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Over evolutionary time, culling the herd has a very profound effect.

It took Russian scientists only 50 generations to produce domesticated Siberian foxes.



Mon, 05/27/2013 - 07:15 | 3600701 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Let's flip this around for a moment...


If I'm going to be critical of something, I've gotta be critical of every angle...

I honestly can't really say I blame the Tylers here... If I had to make a judgement call over the past 2-3 weeks... How can I honestly say that the thread articles are of any less quality... I'm guessing that they take the stories off the Bloomberg Terminal with the highest 'controversy' value [or, let's call it, high controversy value that BLUE PILLERS could detect] & run with it...

That, to me hasn't changed much... Sure, there's still the occasional Simon Black Gstaad fluff piece... But what hey... I mean, even 'Flounder' became a member of Delta House after they finished tossing beers at the screen...

To me... Instead... The difference is NOT is what Tyler is putting out, but in how the comment section responds... Probably due to the fact that nobody knows what to do anymore [myself included]... That's another way of saying "Should I stay or should I go"... As I hinted about above, I'm still around because this dynamic change has had the effect of the tide going out... It used to be FIGHT CLUB & it's not anymore [How can you ever call it a 'Fight Club' when all that are left are the 'Goody Two Shoes']? ... What I've noticed is that some people go down kicking & swinging... & others just goose step along with the new protocol [& even embrace it]... I definitely know that those aren't the types I'd want in a bunker with me if I ever had to fight it out against some oppressive tyranny...


Part 2 of the difference that I see is an effort, by some, to play by the new rules, but still maintain the 'spirit' of any rightful objection that they may have had in the past... This is the realm where things get dicey [because you have seriously moved into the PRE-CRIME/THOUGHT POLICE realm if you try & legislate there]... It's easy for some [because they happened to have been 'goosesteppers' all along], for others, it's tricky...


I'll say this in the end... [which is the thing that my mind always returns to when I question whether I've stepped out of bounds or not]

- The 'SYSTEM' is broken [otherwise, a site like ZH would have never evolved in the first place].

- There is probably no 'surgical fix' to the solution [politically, policy wise, or other]

- Nobody, really, is calling for outright anarchy [so, although that MAY BE the only fix to a broken system, there are still enough people around to try & 'think' their way out of it]

- The 'systemic problems' don't manifest by themselves [limestone edifices don't brint money by themselves, lawsuits don't draw themselves up, news doesn't report itself, selective application of law isn't an automated process]

- That last statement, must, by nature, provide for the notion that there is some 'class' of plural entity that is responsible... Furthermore ~ you must look at that statement in a very particular way... Meaning ~ if the 'SYSTEM' needs to be dismantled, then that 'entity' is, in fact, RESPONSIBLE for propping up a broken system... [which leads to the question of 'motivation']...

- So the next most logical question is twofold...

1. What are the so called 'legs to the chair' needed to prop a system up [globally]... Those would be identified as banking, MSM, political activism, jurisprudence...

2. If that system were to disintegrate... WHO stands to lose the most?... The answer would be ALL of the folks who make the most money & weild the most power by working within that web... Now ~ the "folks" involved there could come from all races & cultures... One could say that the 'blame' should be shared equally... But any reasonable person should also surmise that if there existed any asymmetry within those classes, then that becomes a so-called 'elephant in ther room'... Now ~ I'm not here to shoot the elephant... But to be told to IGNORE it is disingenuous... & if I'm TOTALLY WRONG with that assessment, then I'm definitely in the wrong place...



Mon, 05/27/2013 - 07:17 | 3600716 new game
new game's picture

i am in the beginnings of rewatching sons of anarchy and must say your comment dovetails the idea that everything changes while nothing has changed :~)

and mathematically supported i must add !

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 07:47 | 3600739 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

I'm not going to ask you to define "everything changes while nothing has changed"... [I'm just going to go with the presumed meaning]...


But to take it a step further... It 'bolsters' my long standing argument that 'societal control' [of humanity, by few] is not really very hard to do if you have the right architecture in place... That is:

- banking [which is the basis for 'economy' ~ & control thereof]

- MSM [for propaganda &/or suppression]

- political activism, which works with jurisprudence [law], in an effort to keep a government entity, or 'ruling class' perched above a population keeping them penned in & distracted

It also requires TRUST... Meaning ~ to 'assemble' [the above] from scratch, most likely requires a bunch of tightly knit family members [as in monarchial families], or, people coming within a shared clan or even 'faith' [although I'd say that 'faith' was actually the weakest of those possible scenarios]...

If you succeed in going global with your enteprise, naturally, others must be 'folded in' to the operation... & frankly ~ others from within your same clan might not be pre-disposed to working for "The Corporation"... I mean, I don't know, but I'm sure there are some Hapsburg, Bourbon, Windsor, or even going back to Claudian or Ptolemic dynasties whose offspring wanted to write poetry...

In any case... The 'model' is the same... So as you say

EVERYTHING CHANGES [technology, history, geology, climate, etc.

WHILE NOTHING HAS CHANGED [the form, or the math, of the pyramid]

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:06 | 3600753 new game
new game's picture

I made a profound change in my life and wanted to understand how i did it.

so i studied how the brain works(all those paths, electronically speaking and how they form paths or ruts that are in turn our subconscious thoughts). this is the basis of behavior-imo.  why we do what we do.  but to change that, we must bring those thoughts to the conscious state BEFORE we do it.  it is possible by isolation of a single action (in my case drinking). so in a sense we can control our thoughts, but only by repetition until the old path is changed to a new one.

and why would a general population be any different than an individual? not at all, so therefor nothing really changes(because 99 percent don't have any idea how to actually make a lifelong behavioral change).  so predictable.

simple to see ahead, is my point, and mathematically with behavioral history we are heading for a great change whilst nothing has changed:~)

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 07:39 | 3600733 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Let me weigh in here for a moment and give my for what its worth two cents.

"- The 'systemic problems' don't manifest by themselves [limestone edifices don't brint money by themselves, lawsuits don't draw themselves up, news doesn't report itself, selective application of law isn't an automated process]

- That last statement, must, by nature, provide for the notion that there is some 'class' of plural entity that is responsible..."

Not necessarily.

Western societies have devolved into a seething mass of the easily offended.

For example, if I disagree with manade global warming, someone will be offended. Some will even take the opportunity to "mark me" as someone to be disappeared at the first opportunity a given mechanism provides...because that sole issue means so much to them.

I could go through a whole range of issues, each having supporters and detractors...each time someone will be offended.

All this (ZH freedom) relies on our ability to not take it personal. To not say because someone disagrees with my POV that they must be shut down. To not want to shut someone up so bad we become what we all despise.

The lawyers wouldn't have much work to do if we weren't so easliy offended and claiming damages about just about every damned thing.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 07:45 | 3600738 new game
new game's picture

I would say I haven't become wiser in the last 20 years, just more tolerant.

Which in turn could me msiconstrued as wiser :~)

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 07:49 | 3600742 new game
new game's picture

which calls for an american spirit, which is not very wise...

but who gives a fuck?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 07:58 | 3600748 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Tolerance is a good virtue...up to the point someone sticks a gun in your face...then all bets are

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:13 | 3600761 new game
new game's picture

yes, the best laid plans may be of no avail.

shall we call that fate?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 07:57 | 3600745 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture



I may be inaccurate... But I'd characterize your comment as basically distilling the argument down to:

1. Do 'societies' evolve randomly?


2. Do 'societies' evolve because they are guided?

I've found that it's awfully convenient to use the 'random evolution' theory in the moment that things have gotten so bad that you want to avoid culpability [whether it be total, or simply modestly asymmetric]...

In any case ~ I'm more inclined to believe in the 'guided' theory... The PROBLEM that most people who argue with me have is that they see my POV as absolute... I don't think it's absolute... It's more like farm animals getting penned in... You don't need to control every aspect of the life of a horse, or a cow, or a chicken, or a pig... Just put up a big wide fence & toss them some feed... They become different animals than the ones that existed before the fence rails were put up...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:06 | 3600750 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

both. then they follow the natural sentiments of the involved persons and rely on design in the implementation of those sentiment. cases in point: laws, infrastructure and authorities are designed. even some basic institutions like marriage are designed

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:06 | 3600752 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I do see your point, random vs guided.

I can't argue that people of influence guide (or attempt to guide) large blocs of people. We see it all the time in the MSM and its one of the reasons ZH is a breath of fresh air.

We should all question and independently verify everything.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:21 | 3600770 new game
new game's picture

behaviorly random - anotherwords, guided by the momentum of influence as a result of current issues, which in trun are the result of previous good and bad policy. ie the rise of hitler from the ashes of wwI.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:23 | 3600771 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

We're animals living on a big farm... The farmers put up the fence posts a long time ago... Most steer that I see are probably strong enough to walk right through a wooden post but they don't... Most horses could probably jump an average fence if they wanted to but they don't... & if either case did, in fact, occur, the farmer would respond by putting up an 'electric fence'... If they bucked & made further trouble, they'd get shot...


All you are is tomorrow's steak... [even if you're the horse, apparently]...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:29 | 3600786 new game
new game's picture

ah, so the essence of this string of thoughts is to keep our eye on the whip!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:45 | 3600819 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

The 'essence' is personal... IOW ~ it's anything you want it to be if you're a free thinking person


For example: I know that basically I'm an animal on a farm here... In my lifetime, the fence rails to that farm may not come down [or, they may]... What's funny is this... I'll guarantee you that if the fence rails were to vanish out of thin air tomorrow... Most people would still be standing around in the same meadow wondering what the hell to do [until they got hungry, of course]... I already know that I'd bolt for the woods...

Existing within the pen [& being aware of it is managed through psychology]... Papillion ate centipedes & did pushups until he got out, built himself a raft, & took his chances with the sharks... I try to NOT PARTICIPATE in as many of the 'societal' FENCES that keep me penned in... Most around here do many of the same things... SOME are kinda 'pretenders' who just like to talk [but that's OK too I guess]...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 09:10 | 3600864 new game
new game's picture

like it! i am removing the razor wired portion of my fence-selling my real estate(one sold, one to go). the other fences you speak of are truely in our mind. one that keep guiding me, is less is more- just works(for me). the ole wagon of burdens vs a backpack.

because francis, in the end, we see a very fucked thingy and want to be be prepared, or so my thoughts are guided in that direction and what is beyond the fence rails(of course). but, what EXACTLY is that reality? The free thinker will be "close"enough!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 09:10 | 3600867 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

francis, i say this with all due respect to your POV, but you choose to play the role that you are playing.   we all do.   the fences only exist in our minds.   that you do not bolt for the woods and stick around to act as a strange attractor is a choice on your part.   the jury is out as to whether you (we) are fighting a worthy battle or not, but if you think about it, you (we) are playing the same game with the same methods that those you are calling out as the farmers have been for centuries.   just some clover to chew on...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 09:43 | 3600911 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture



I won't challenge your characterization... The reason for that is as follows [which is a part of the equation that I have not discussed before because most people spend so much time 'stuck in the mud' with the misguided 'discriminatory' perceptions of the argument that preceeds]...

Anyway ~ I'd say that the reason that most people choose the meadow vs. bolting for the woods is due to their own families [ESPECIALLY if they have kids & a wife, but also if they have a responsibility for caring for the elderly ones in their immediate families]...

IOW ~ Most of us would NEVER, really be bolting for the woods on our own, we'd be dragging a caravan along with us out of a sense of duty... To me, there's no getting around 'honoring' that sense of duty no matter how much the farmer & his farm annoy you...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 10:56 | 3601037 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

ah yes, the ideal of the bodhisatva...good on you to bring it up.    but things get quite complicated when one person's bodhisatva is seen as another person's terrorist.   or when one perceives himself as "doing God's work" whereas others perceive that same work as that of serving Mammon.   then it becomes a constant battle as to whose Truth is the truth, and as we all have observed, there are no rules in this battle except those that are written by the most cunning, the most deceitful, the most manipulative, the most bloodthristy, the ones who are willing to rat out others they find "personally reprehensible",  the ones who are willing to eat another's heart (figuratively or literally) for the sake of either protecting their own or proving themselves as sole arbiters of the Truth.

as Joyful noted yesterday,  "There is no truth in the truth" ... and there is no greater truth than that truth. Nor any way of hiding from it.

if you willing to entertain the "truth" of this explanation, then who is to say that the right decision for the sake of protecting one's own (including oneself) is within the boundaries of the fence, especially when you are of the type that feels the constant urge to be the squeaky wheel?

please note i'm not picking on you or your choices as an individual, rather questioning the archetype that most of us here have chosen to play or rather wondering if the horse we've have been given to ride is named Clavileno the Swift.     what say you, Sancho?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 11:13 | 3601091 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Frankly ~ I don't know what to say... To me, it's a constantly shifting platform... When you're on a constantly shifting platform... Perhaps every once in awhile you have the luxury of honoring yourself with a little pre-planning... But mostly you're just trying to keep your balance... & even to that extent, keeping one's balance is more a function of instinct than intellect... Go with the flow...


There was a pretty stupid Hollywood movie called 'The Core'... Whereby a team is assembled to take a trip to the center of the Earth to jump start the magnetic core which had stalled... Very fanciful, & pretty silly, operationally... But still, if one lets themselves just relax & soak it all in, sometimes some little gems can emerge...

There was one point in the movie where two of the guys are having a discussion about the overwhelming responsibility of it all [vis-a-vis 'Saving the World']... The philosophical French guy says... "Hey ~ I'm not thinking about saving the world here... I'm just trying to think about what I can do to save my wife & two kids"...


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 07:58 | 3600749 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

BINGO - Political Correctness, as used in the Northern European countries and the US, has a lot to do with "someone is offended by this"

now I have no clue if this is the paradigm with which users are being allegedly banned, but it's for sure not not the principle of the law governing that little country in which ZH's servers are

that law has a redeeming quality: it never prevents the presentation of facts - or the tasteful presentation of personal opinion

in fact, that law has some "offending", non-PC and yet discriminatory qualities: it's anti-Neanderthal

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:26 | 3600777 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

haha, ya beat me on the BINGO ghordy.

step on up to the table for your prize>>>> one golden calf!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:30 | 3600789 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

already double' bingoed you, har, har, har... how many metric grams is the golden calf?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:48 | 3600824 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

that depends whether you want to melt it down or not :)

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 10:11 | 3600803 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture



We can all argue this until we're blue in the face... But the fact still remains... SOMEBODY has to bring a case to court [or otherwise 'make trouble'] for anything to occur... Things don't happen automatically... I've been called every name in the book on ZH here for 3 years now & I don't take it personally...

I don't waste my time, money, & efforts to create elaborate legal architectures, & avenues whereby I can legally sue people for damage [& then populate that system with my hillbilly cousins]...

Some, on the other hand... Do...

Now ~ I guess the question remains [in terms of the word 'TOLERANCE']

Which is a more 'tolerant' society?

a) a society whereby one easily offended population goes to great lengths & ballyhoo to legislate & enforce their version of 'tolerance' on everyone else [asymmetrically ~ as the case may be, because they don't give a FF about so called abuses which aren't against their own]

b) a society where people develop a little leather & let things slide off their back?


Footnote: There are also many who say that "Neanderthals' were actually smarter than "Cro-Magnons" [although how the hell does anyone REALLY know about such things]?... Sounds like a bunch of fucking professors sucking on the free grant money tit to me...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 11:58 | 3601210 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

don't agree, not too forcefully but nevertheless. "somebody has to bring a case to court for anything to occour" is very... AngloSaxon in spirit

the continental equivalent is "somebody has to take the streets and/or stir up a racket in parliament"

on the other side, if a Cro-Magnon can't refrain from repeating ad nauseam "them Neanderthals, they bad, because of them the gods are angry, remember Cro-Magnon City, let's kill all of them"... well, the Swiss have this law against this kind of annoyance. and I can't blame them

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 12:38 | 3601272 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

"the continental equivalent is "somebody has to take the streets and/or stir up a racket in parliament"


Jesus Tapdancing Christ I hate these neverending Ivory Tower Debating Society subjects... What I'm interested in is NOT theoretical... It's in real life habit, procedure, & operation...

Subject & Predicate... So whether it's:

- Anglo Saxon

- On the Continent

- Off the Continent

- On the streets

- In a court of law

- In a deposition

- in Parliament

- or in a fucking kangaroo court

...those are all 'predicates'... The 'Subject' still remains the same... [& in this case, we're not talking]:

- The Syrians

- The Klingons

- The Romulans

- The Bangladeshis

blah blah blah [insert 'Ivory Tower Debating Society' subset groupage here for your further entertainment value]... After all ~ the [non]Federal [non]Reserve prints [steals] $85 billion a month [at present], which almost completely ends up in the hands of its shareholder families... Time is money... So the longer the debating society is in session, the more can be stolen...



Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:22 | 3600772 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

Western societies have devolved into a seething mass of the easily offended.

bingo.   it's a veritable psycho-social ping pong match between crying victim & feeling entitled in order to make oneself rationalize the victimization of others.    every round just builds up the suffering (whether real or perceived makes no difference) in the karmic pool until the whole world becomes one giant cesspit of psychic sewage.

meanwhile, the real victims get brushed off into a dark corner only to be trotted out as show ponies whenever someone or ones need them to make a self-serving point and then are pushed back into the closet (one example off the top of my head are the Afghan women under the Taliban, but there are many, too many).

and those who do the most damage through their sense of ego-entitlement (the self-styled god-kings regardless of what god they choose) continue to SLIRK away into the shadows every single time, because everyone else is too focused on their own personal phantoms (or squirrels).

The lawyers wouldn't have much work to do if we weren't so easliy offended and claiming damages about just about every damned thing.

wondering if this is not a chicken and an egg phenomenon.    would people be so easily offended if there weren't as many lawyers, and thus opportunities to extract cash-money from others through crying wolf?  

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:28 | 3600784 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

double bingo: too many lawyers, too many laws, to many lawsuits. same as too many tax laws, too many tax lawyers, etc. etc.

the Roman Plebs fought hard to have written law. one day we'll have to fight to have law written in an human scale

note how already some politicians start to claim they don't have the time to even read the laws they vote on

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:33 | 3600802 new game
new game's picture

might be as simple as risk/reward?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 09:09 | 3600866 nmewn
nmewn's picture

If a law can't be written on an 8x11 piece of paper...its not needed.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 09:41 | 3600905 new game
new game's picture

as a former r.e. guy -YEA; but we ALL need to follow these so called laws. hmmm.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:41 | 3600812 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The lawyers wouldn't have much work to do if we weren't so easliy offended and claiming damages about just about every damned thing.

"wondering if this is not a chicken and an egg phenomenon.    would people be so easily offended if there weren't as many lawyers, and thus opportunities to extract cash-money from others through crying wolf?"

I'm gonna say yes, they would still be offended and demand a law be produced to compensate them. And of course, the more laws...the more lawyers.

It begins and ends with us in my opinion...this is why one of the most obnoxious things I always pounce on is when someone says..."There needs to be a law against/for..."

We're up to our damned eyeballs in laws...we're literally drowning (as a society) in them.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:55 | 3600836 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

"We're up to our damned eyeballs in laws...we're literally drowning (as a society) in them."


banking, MSM, political activism, jurisprudence

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 09:07 | 3600861 nmewn
nmewn's picture


But however glacially slow for us, the "plebes" of influence are starting to notice what they've done and speculating, perhaps, that could be their head-in-a-basket ;-)

"The growing dominance of the federal government over the states has obscured more fundamental changes within the federal government itself: It is not just bigger, it is dangerously off kilter. Our carefully constructed system of checks and balances is being negated by the rise of a fourth branch, an administrative state of sprawling departments and agencies that govern with increasing autonomy and decreasing transparency. . .

This exponential growth has led to increasing power and independence for agencies. The shift of authority has been staggering. The fourth branch now has a larger practical impact on the lives of citizens than all the other branches combined."

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 09:37 | 3600899 new game
new game's picture

why do i get drawn to the thought of violent outcome?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 10:08 | 3600926 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture



At the risk of jumping rails... I'll go back to the 'TOLERANCE' argument above...

People mistakenly equate 'political correctness' & 'society' with the notion of having become TOLERANT... I'd say it's the opposite...

'Tolerance' IS NOT capriciously coming up with a set of rules, and then creating an architecture for everybody else to conform to them under the threat of punishment [whereby, you break them at will]... Instead ~ 'Tolerance' is you're own personal ability & capacity to suffer all slings & arrows... Fight back, when necessary, in a measured way... & at the end of the day share & share alike...

A society becomes mangled whene they 'cede' the concept of 'tolerance' to a system outside themselves [both by the 'rules', which may actually be synthetic, & by enforcement] ... Once the Pandora's Box of ceding this responsibility is open, the 'SYSTEM' is ripe for abuse by the entities that happen to manage the system...

My main 'faith' in this whole phenomenon is that the 'SYSTEM' that I speak of, will naturally, over time, turn against & consume itself...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 10:35 | 3601014 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Actually it took the Russian scientists far less than 50 generations to domesticate them.  It took 5.  After about 10 or so, as I recall, they began exhibiting domesticated features:  like the tail curling. 

Nonetheless, your point is valid:  it takes more than a couple/few generations to change things.  If we look at the European aristocracy and Clergy, and their combined effects of homogenizing/breeding the populace, it took centuries.  What's that Biblical saying: "The sins of the fathers... the 5th generation"?

PC is the attempt by TPTB to 'domesticate' or rather to "homogenize" us around their world view and their code of social conduct.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 11:22 | 3601109 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture



I'm not inclined to debate this subject [at least for now, cause I'm a little busy today]... But on the subject of "change" [as applied to 'European aristocracy'] is debatable...

It's been argued that the shift from the 'Bourbon Monarchy' & even Catholic Church structure that existed in France during Robespierre's "TERROR" campaign post the French Revolution all came about rather quickly...

But in the end it is an odd thing, because with regards to Robiespierre himself, it all turned against him rather quickly as he finally went a bridge too far...

Still ~ the "change" was made, which was evidenced by the power vacuum that resulted, the shift to Napoleonic rule, then all the subsequent changes [of which Rothschild himself played a key role]...

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:53 | 3600098 espirit
espirit's picture

Perhaps it's not the Tylers that muted your comment.  The Internet Overlords might have decided your connection was too close to the truth and critical thinking would evolve further debate.

Conspiracy Theory vs. Conspiracy Fact?

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:53 | 3600099 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Check the bottom of the page.

Thought police are everywhere, not to mention new ownership.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 18:08 | 3600207 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Where'd you find the new ownership detail? If you mean ABC Media, isn't that what they've always gone under?

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 18:57 | 3600253 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

New to me, but hell, I've only been around for 3+ years.  Everything went south a couple of weeks ago, but to tell the truth, it hasn't been the same since Marla left.  Honest libertarians are hard to find.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 20:29 | 3600349 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

It's been under ABC Media Limited since it moved off of around 2009.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:26 | 3600541 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Marla...the Syd Barrett of ZH. God help me if i become the Roger Waters version. Am i already?

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 17:33 | 3600151 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

Tyler, could we get an explanation?

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 18:00 | 3600197 1C3-N1N3
1C3-N1N3's picture

We're getting a virtual taste of herd-culling.

If you (universal "you" -- not you specifically) react badly to this, just wait until it's happening offline.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 10:47 | 3601034 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

1. These blogs are totally off-topic to the article -- and yet no one is smart enough to figure this out?  And you wonder why the smart ones are leaving?

2. I am also teetering on leaving -- but for different reasons:  My position is that if the Tylers put in such phenomenal effort in producing a quality product (to market and monetize), just where is the "value add" from the blogs if these blogs settle into the quagmire of the lowest common denominator:  Trailer-trash Talk?

Do serious and (emotionally & mentally) balanced people really believe that ZH will gain a larger appeal (beyond a 'colorful' fringe), unless the bar is raised to the point of more civil and cerebral discourse?  Additionally, does anyone believe that the 'rowdy' elements are helping with the ZH revenue stream?  YOU connect the dots.

If you want the tree to grow well, the gardener must prune it from time to time.  I suggest you blog accordingly.

Now, unless you are totally pathological or a Gov-troll, can we get back on topic?

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 21:54 | 3600453 PathForward
PathForward's picture

Let’s give the Tyler’s some credit – they’ve definitely earned our trust. In other words, who’s going to create a website like this, if they’re aren’t interested in helping to change the world for the better? ZH isn’t controlled by TPTB, we all know that, otherwise the exchange of ideas would be heavily edited and the website would die. Freedom of speech is important, but I don’t have any problem whatsoever with the ZH’s Racial Discrimination policy. I support it. Where’s the value added by talking about racial discrimination? We have *much* more important ideas to explore.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:58 | 3600522 prains
prains's picture

nothing i said was racial or factually untrue it's all be proven in court, yet, poof !

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:23 | 3600539 i-dog
i-dog's picture


"ZH isn’t controlled by TPTB, we all know that"

LOL ... assumptions don't equal facts.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 03:44 | 3600649 awakening
awakening's picture

Just as one should not shoot the messenger (though the bread and circuses act atm may bring that fad back soon), one should also not trust them unconditionally.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 17:47 | 3600172 1C3-N1N3
1C3-N1N3's picture

The other day I saw Squeeky disappear after posting something bizarre about guitar strings.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:11 | 3600471 MilleniumJane
MilleniumJane's picture

+1 for the Wendell Berry quote.  How sad that so few people have read his works in favor of watching American Idol.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:46 | 3600090 ponzisaurus
ponzisaurus's picture

Trillions of people searching for a few ounces.  If I was one of those trillions I think I would reject that search and accept another option. Another option is surely planned and will surely be presented. 

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 18:08 | 3600208 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

My fair share is one ounce of gold. Let us all be granted one ounce ( in new dollars equivalent ) and work our new economy from there.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 01:37 | 3600611 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

I get the sentiment, but WTF?  There are only about 7 billion people on the planet.  Where do the extra thousands of billions come from?

Yeah, I know- I'm guilty of a little hyperbole now and then myself.... but I thought this was an economic forum.  You sound like a medium-bright guy, but if you don't know how many people there are in the world, this may not be your forté.

Me, I might have said a cool ten billion hunting for a handful of oz because I actually know the most recent world population estimate, and would have had a way to backpeddle by calling it a rounding error- just like the boys in the fancy suits would.

Just saying.  I'm seriously not trying to gut you here, but three zeros makes a real difference when you're making a point- even if it's metaphorical.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 23:51 | 3602703 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

The comment doesn't say "trillions of people" it says "trillions" as in paper cash in search of real money.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 21:37 | 3600436 tango
tango's picture

This realization will only come very very late in the game. Despite many ZH posters chomping at the bit for chaos and implosion the vast majority of folks hear, see and fear no evil. They blithely continue from one day to the next, unable or unwilling to plan for a future of hype and hope. Think of it this way - 90% could not define fist currency and if given the definition would agree that it's just what they want.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 15:05 | 3599952 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

I think that the first question should be, "is the current 'system' a criminal scam?"

If you answer in the affirmative then you must conclude that there can not be any "honesty" any more than one can expect honesty from a con-artist.

If you answer in the negative then you haven't been paying attention.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:12 | 3600036 Seer
Seer's picture


I'd state that the entire PREMISE (based on perpetual growth on a finite planet) is flawed.  It's that we never question the premise is the reason why things have gotten so far down the bad tracks.  If you start from a flawed premise you can make up all kinds of shit; unfortunately people associate success by the sticking of the shit and never that it's Shit.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:29 | 3600488 MilleniumJane
MilleniumJane's picture

Amen, Seer!!!  *applause*  That is all the Tylers have been trying to point out.  The entire premise is flawed, and we are now corkscrewing Nautilus-style to an obvious point of no return.  The world will either arise better, or far far worse than we could ever imagine, if we don't start making some serious changes in our behavior as a collective species.  It means unplugging and ignoring the "Masters of the Universe" to go about the business of survival.  The system cannot be changed through ordinary means anymore.  It is rotten to the core now, so the only way to change is to develop an alternate shadow system that will be stronger and more resilient.

These assholes will go down in my lifetime.  It won't be pretty, but there are more of us than them.  I don't want what they have planned coming down the pike for my boys and their children (or for that matter, everyone's children).  What is coming will be worse than death.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 08:07 | 3600754 Pope Clement
Pope Clement's picture

Maybe not so finite - the Earth appears to be growing....

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:28 | 3600060 Doña K
Doña K's picture

True! But gives you food for thinking on your own and the answers will be self evident.

The three stages of truth: rediculed, violently opposed and accepted as being self evident.  

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 15:46 | 3600008 Silveramada
Silveramada's picture

The power ruling elite is taking ppl money and PM's away and diverging the attention from the real problems...till they can't anymore


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 21:50 | 3600448 BidnessMan
BidnessMan's picture

When it gets serious, you have to lie. That is how Central Bankers think.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:42 | 3600555 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

We are but toys for the Elite Gods to play with.


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 10:42 | 3601018 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture


"That statement is no longer operative" - Ron Zeigler, press secretary to Richard Nixon

Being a short lesson in history for the under 40 crowd, and how it MAY (I am hopeful) repeat itself.

The statement in the subject line was made when Nixon was caught in an absolute, straight-up (no ice), bald-faced lie. It has been attributed to Ron Ziegler*, his press secretary, but may have come from H.R. Haldeman*, Nixon's chief of staff. Even then, no one in the Republican party would say the president lied, or fibbed, or even "prevaricated" (which would have sent a few folks to their American Heritage Unabridged). Nope. Just "That statement is no longer operative". As I remember, there were incredulous looks from the press, followed by howls of laughter. No one had yet come up with the wonderful "case closed", which wouldn't have mattered anyway.
It was the beginning of the end.

The point is that it wasn't one huge whopper that brought down Nixon and most of his staff*. It was a series of ever growing fudging and half-truths and withheld information and spinning (didn't have that term yet, either) that eventually created the big whoppers that did it. I certainly see the same pattern, only moreso, with this administration. I can only hope the history is once again the harbinger of future events.

*Ziegler did say that Watergate was "a third rate burglary". Right.
*Haldeman said (referring to the mire they had gotten themselves into) "Once the toothpaste is out of the tube, you can't put it back in". Really right.
*Nixon felons: (from bartcop)"Then came Richard M. Nixon, and a cavalcade of major scandals and convictions, involving (among other things) such crimes against the state as political burglary, bribery, extortion, wiretapping, conspiracy, and illegal use of the C.I.A., I.R.S., and F.B.I. Most of these crimes are now lumped together under the collective heading of Watergate. - from a post by trof at Democratic Underground


"We're all Keynesians now" - Richard Nixon


"We're all Richard Nixon now" - Keynesians

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 14:28 | 3599889 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

ZIRP - nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:34 | 3600498 MilleniumJane
MilleniumJane's picture

Awesome! +1

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 23:59 | 3600565 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

When I was young, I thought that our universe's existence was due to 'Nothing' disintegrating and thereby creating it and if you brought everything in our universe back together you would have nothing.

Also that you could send information back in time, but first you had to build a receiver to get it.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 15:09 | 3599891 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

"France the most credit worthy gov't in the last 400 years", 32:40


Edit: someone needs the s/tag

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 02:01 | 3600621 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

BP, France as credit worthy?  Well, there was that brief flash crash there in the Reign of Terror. And Mitterand, awe, fergit it...   s/

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 14:31 | 3599893 longwind
longwind's picture

Gentle goldbuggers, a quasi-OT question: how do you think the Perth Mint stacks up as a safe haven? I see unallocated holdings there are storage-free. I realize it's a long paddle to Oz to get my gold and have my boating accident back home while the Apocalypse rains brimstone, but geez guys, it's backed by the most resource-rich state of a resource-rich country. I do understand physical possession but isn't this kind of a safe-ish compromise? Why not? Thanks!

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 14:53 | 3599924 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

No, don't use them. Be your own Central Bank.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 15:03 | 3599946 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

The ONLY game when the time comes will be holding physical IN YOUR POSSESSION and even that sill not be so simple

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:37 | 3600077 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

Two things.


 Unallocated holdings,  so if it ain't in yer hand it ain't in yer hand.

Now maybe you get out now and can actually get delivery before the stampede but after.............

well three things.

Dr. Benway is from downunder and should be able to add insight.  

paging Dr. Benway

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 19:33 | 3600288 Dr Benway
Dr Benway's picture

Hey I don't have much to add here. It seems odd to compromise the main advantage of physical gold by letting someone else hold it for you in exchange for a promise. Wasn't that what you were trying to avoid in the first place, a rotten inflated paper financial system that has made promises it can't possible keep. That said, unallocated at Perth Mint is a lot better than other paper gold I guess.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 02:14 | 3600624 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture


Let's play this a different way. Say one was a gunbugger, and Perth Mint was Perth Armory. So, some years back you decided to store your newly acquired M-4 Carbine there. You also decided to buy unallocated Perth Armory shares of a bunch of Glock 26's.

Could you now fly on over there and take delivery?

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 22:36 | 3600500 MilleniumJane
MilleniumJane's picture

I agree with and hold and shhhhhhh...don't tell!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 11:16 | 3601088 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

@Bay of Pigs: "Be your own Central Bank"

I don't necessarily disagree, but I do have some practical concerns about this approach:

1. Market utility:  I can't readily go around and buy things with PM.  They still want paper money or e-payments.

2. Conversion Margins: I'll take the chance of having the coin dealers who blog here come down hard on me, but I'll venture to say that it's a bit of a scam -- insofar as a PM user pays conversion margins at both ends of the buy/sell deal.  You get dinged twice:  bad for you, good for them.  But truth is truth, facts are facts, and math is math.

3.  PM is a hard asset.  So is rentable real estate and productive land.  The difference is, that these pay dividends (money or food, or used as shelter), but PM does not.  It truly is only a "store of value" -- its limited industrial an 'bling' usage aside.  Nothing wrong with that, but the point is:  It should be part of your total solution.  Not The solution. 

Rather than having an over-simplified "either/or" mindset (like most Americans), it is more useful to have an "and" mindset:  There's nothing wrong with holding a mix of Unallocated PM and self-stored PM.  If the PM price does go above your purchase price, you can always use that gain to offset the margin you will pay for conversion to bullion.  Rather than paying for the conversion out of your pocket.

p.s. Technically, you're not your own "CB" because you can't issue currency (with anything less than 1:1 backing by your PM), or use it for FRB (the ways commercial banks do).  But I get your drift, so no need to get wrapped around the axle.


Sun, 05/26/2013 - 15:08 | 3599959 Seer
Seer's picture

They mint good stuff.

Australia, however, isn't a country that I'd claim as one of the "survivors."  Food, Shelter and Water.: It's got issues with the first and last.  And the other problem, as you note, is that it's a long way from most places.  It may be a big island, but it's still an island.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:38 | 3600078 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

I'd claim as one of the "survivors."

i'd respectfully claim that the jury is still out as to whether it will or won't be.   most of the innovation surrounding land management, food production & water harvesting is coming from Australians.   

keyline design for instance

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 00:08 | 3600569 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Between potential solar energy use and extracting water from the atmosphere, I'd say Oz would be a survivor.

It would be Best in Show with me if it weren't for its government.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 16:50 | 3600094 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Wow, huge food exporter, and yes water crisis but not where the people live. Check out the Pleistocene water that has almost run out in the Oglalla Aquifer that feeds the US and the world. And yes being far away is a very good thing IMO. On an island the size of the Lower 48.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 00:39 | 3600590 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

New Zealand is insular too. Better placed than Australia weather -wise, but you have to take shakiness for granted. 

Well placed to weather the coming shitstorm.

Sun, 05/26/2013 - 15:41 | 3600005 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Gentle goldbuggers, a quasi-OT question: how do you think the Perth Mint stacks up as a safe haven? I see unallocated holdings there are storage-free. I realize it's a long paddle to Oz to get my gold and have my boating accident back home while the Apocalypse rains brimstone, but geez guys, it's backed by the most resource-rich state of a resource-rich country. I do understand physical possession but isn't this kind of a safe-ish compromise? Why not? Thanks!

Unallocated means you will have no claim on physical at their whim.Allocated also means the same thing, IF one thing is instituted that being nationaization.Bottom line, if you do not HOLD it, you do not own it.(said here a million times)Perth is known worldwide, BUT make sure the fine print of their agreement is read by an attorney, and that they have ZERO loopholes to make you settle in fiat.

We have seen what happens to one too many accounts of people who THINK they own phyzz.(all IMHO of course)

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