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40 'Frightening' Facts On The Fall Of The US Economy

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Michael Snyder of The Economic Collapse blog,

40 Statistics About The Fall Of The U.S. Economy That Are Almost Too Crazy To Believe

If you know someone that actually believes that the U.S. economy is in good shape, just show them the statistics in this article.  When you step back and look at the long-term trends, it is undeniable what is happening to us.  We are in the midst of a horrifying economic decline that is the result of decades of very bad decisions.  30 years ago, the U.S. national debt was about one trillion dollars.  Today, it is almost 17 trillion dollars.  40 years ago, the total amount of debt in the United States was about 2 trillion dollars.  Today, it is more than 56 trillion dollars.  At the same time that we have been running up all of this debt, our economic infrastructure and our ability to produce wealth has been absolutely gutted.  Since 2001, the United States has lost more than 56,000 manufacturing facilities and millions of good jobs have been shipped overseas.  Our share of global GDP declined from 31.8 percent in 2001 to 21.6 percent in 2011.  The percentage of Americans that are self-employed is at a record low, and the percentage of Americans that are dependent on the government is at a record high.  The U.S. economy is a complete and total mess, and it is time that we faced the truth.

The following are 40 statistics about the fall of the U.S. economy that are almost too crazy to believe...

#1 Back in 1980, the U.S. national debt was less than one trillion dollars.  Today, it is rapidly approaching 17 trillion dollars...

National Debt

#2 During Obama's first term, the federal government accumulated more debt than it did under the first 42 U.S presidents combined.

#3 The U.S. national debt is now more than 23 times larger than it was when Jimmy Carter became president.

#4 If you started paying off just the new debt that the U.S. has accumulated during the Obama administration at the rate of one dollar per second, it would take more than 184,000 years to pay it off.

#5 The federal government is stealing more than 100 million dollars from our children and our grandchildren every single hour of every single day.

#6 Back in 1970, the total amount of debt in the United States (government debt + business debt + consumer debt, etc.) was less than 2 trillion dollars.  Today it is over 56 trillion dollars...

Total Debt

#7 According to the World Bank, U.S. GDP accounted for 31.8 percent of all global economic activity in 2001.  That number dropped to 21.6 percent in 2011.

#8 The United States has fallen in the global economic competitiveness rankings compiled by the World Economic Forum for four years in a row.

#9 According to The Economist, the United States was the best place in the world to be born into back in 1988.  Today, the United States is only tied for 16th place.

#10 Incredibly, more than 56,000 manufacturing facilities in the United States have been permanently shut down since 2001.

#11 There are less Americans working in manufacturing today than there was in 1950 even though the population of the country has more than doubled since then.

#12 According to the New York Times, there are now approximately 70,000 abandoned buildings in Detroit.

#13 When NAFTA was pushed through Congress in 1993, the United States had a trade surplus with Mexico of 1.6 billion dollars.  By 2010, we had a trade deficit with Mexico of 61.6 billion dollars.

#14 Back in 1985, our trade deficit with China was approximately 6 million dollars (million with a little "m") for the entire year.  In 2012, our trade deficit with China was 315 billion dollars.  That was the largest trade deficit that one nation has had with another nation in the history of the world.

#15 Overall, the United States has run a trade deficit of more than 8 trillion dollars with the rest of the world since 1975.

#16 According to the Economic Policy Institute, the United States is losing half a million jobs to China every single year.

#17 Back in 1950, more than 80 percent of all men in the United States had jobs.  Today, less than 65 percent of all men in the United States have jobs.

#18 At this point, an astounding 53 percent of all American workers make less than $30,000 a year.

#19 Small business is rapidly dying in America.  At this point, only about 7 percent of all non-farm workers in the United States are self-employed.  That is an all-time record low.

#20 Back in 1983, the bottom 95 percent of all income earners in the United States had 62 cents of debt for every dollar that they earned.  By 2007, that figure had soared to $1.48.

#21 In the United States today, the wealthiest one percent of all Americans have a greater net worth than the bottom 90 percent combined.

#22 According to Forbes, the 400 wealthiest Americans have more wealth than the bottom 150 million Americans combined.

#23 The six heirs of Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton have as much wealth as the bottom one-third of all Americans combined.

#24 According to the U.S. Census Bureau, more than 146 million Americans are either "poor" or "low income".

#25 According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 49 percent of all Americans live in a home that receives direct monetary benefits from the federal government.  Back in 1983, less than a third of all Americans lived in a home that received direct monetary benefits from the federal government.

#26 Overall, the federal government runs nearly 80 different "means-tested welfare programs", and at this point more than 100 million Americans are enrolled in at least one of them.

#27 Back in 1965, only one out of every 50 Americans was on Medicaid.  Today, one out of every 6 Americans is on Medicaid, and things are about to get a whole lot worse.  It is being projected that Obamacare will add 16 million more Americans to the Medicaid rolls.

#28 As I wrote recently, it is being projected that the number of Americans on Medicare will grow from 50.7 million in 2012 to 73.2 million in 2025.

#29 At this point, Medicare is facing unfunded liabilities of more than 38 trillion dollars over the next 75 years.  That comes to approximately $328,404 for every single household in the United States.

#30 Right now, there are approximately 56 million Americans collecting Social Security benefits.  By 2035, that number is projected to soar to an astounding 91 million.

#31 Overall, the Social Security system is facing a 134 trillion dollar shortfall over the next 75 years.

#32 Today, the number of Americans on Social Security Disability now exceeds the entire population of Greece, and the number of Americans on food stamps now exceeds the entire population of Spain.

#33 According to a report recently issued by the Pew Research Center, on average Americans over the age of 65 have 47 times as much wealth as Americans under the age of 35.

#34 U.S. families that have a head of household that is under the age of 30 have a poverty rate of 37 percent.

#35 As I mentioned recently, the homeownership rate in America is now at its lowest level in nearly 18 years.

#36 There are now 20.2 million Americans that spend more than half of their incomes on housing.  That represents a 46 percent increase from 2001.

#37 45 percent of all children are living in poverty in Miami, more than 50 percent of all children are living in poverty in Cleveland, and about 60 percent of all children are living in poverty in Detroit.

#38 Today, more than a million public school students in the United States are homeless.  This is the first time that has ever happened in our history.

#39 When Barack Obama first entered the White House, about 32 million Americans were on food stamps.  Now, more than 47 million Americans are on food stamps.

#40 According to one calculation, the number of Americans on food stamps now exceeds the combined populations of "Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Utah, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming."


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Mon, 05/27/2013 - 14:55 | 3601538 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Great post.  #29 is laughable.  We will NEVER pay off our bills.  Default or hyperinflate are the only 2 scenarios left.



Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:01 | 3601551 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Wrong.  World war (either overtly or covertly) is another option.  In essence, if all the "liabilities" were to suddenly "go away", that would also solve the percieved problems.  Please, those who ignore history...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:08 | 3601555 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

We are in a world war now.  Currency and trade wars, along with covert and cyber espionage, has been going on for years.  Read: Iran.  Do you need tanks rolling through St. Petersburg before you're convinced that there is a war going on?


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:13 | 3601567 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

WAR is ongoing and inevitable, given the state of the world. 

It is now overt nd covert, cold and hot and there is no such thing as a safe haven. A matter of when, not if it is coming to a neighbourhood near you.

That said, this list reads like THE COMMIFICATION of America.


They want everyone adn everything in the Govern-net...


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:31 | 3601604 trollin4sukrz
trollin4sukrz's picture

Hey? why do I have all these fine looking latin babes trying to get me to marry them? I am already married. Google has fvked up again..

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:55 | 3601673 espirit
espirit's picture

Dija notice they have "Russian" names?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:04 | 3601699 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

#17 and #18

No accident...  Even still, we are only looking at income disparity, when its wealth disparity (through theft and fraud and drug smuggling and usury...) that is the real shocker. 

Most manufacturing will be heavily automated within 20 years.  The question is, who owns the automation?  Wealth disparity will really kick the economy in the ass then.  All the profits going to 1%, and most people would probably have to borrow money (or gov't dole, if that lasts) just to live.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:09 | 3602016 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

John Mccain spends Memorial Day in Syria with the alCIAda rebels..........

these stinking neo-cons make me sick..........

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:01 | 3602108 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

indeed. If memory serves it was McCain saying that Libyan rebels were Al Qaeda

Of course Kucinich called this out a long time ago :

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:14 | 3602129 Shocker
Shocker's picture

41) Employment situation is worst than thought

Layoff/Closing List


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:48 | 3602218 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

So when is this "fall" going to happen because I've been hearing about it now since 2009 yet nothing develops. Bottom line is, the criminals can continue the fraud, crimes, deception & illusion for as long as they want. They own the keys to the printing press. The inevitible fall, if & when it happens or not & their criminal restructuring plans have already been planned.


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:38 | 3602327 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Planned yes. Can they control it? questionable.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:46 | 3602344 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

The best layed plans of mice and men... when this shit gets out of control it will be biblical.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 21:25 | 3602431 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

I think so too. Worldwide financial wipeout, virtually overnight. We shall live in the most interesting times.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 03:00 | 3602879 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Speaking of 'Biblical'... a new Israeli bill would elevate Judaism above democracy

An Israeli MP (Yariv Levin of the governing Likud party) has submitted a controversial proposal to the legislature which could grant Jewish identity priority over democracy in rulings which pertain to issues of religion and state, and also requiring Jewish communities be set up in disputed areas.


Expect US backing of anything & everything they do.  Hedge accordingly.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 08:41 | 3603109 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

I wonder how soon it will be before we get a similar law in the U.S. placing Judaism above democracy.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 01:19 | 3602812 fuckitall
fuckitall's picture

"So when is this "fall" going to happen..."

It's happening right now, as we speak. 

"Fall"doesn't have to be "sudden collapse".  It can be slow and steady.   You end up at the bottom either way.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 01:19 | 3602813 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

and again we need the "5 minutes to midnight" doomsday clock with the zerohedge icon as the 12 marker. If WB7 doesn't have the time maybe I'll do it :D I actually grabbed a few stills of Blankfein, the BernanQE and Krugman to go with an old B&W photo of the clock that might just work well together... just busy :D

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 04:33 | 3602928 The Heart
The Heart's picture

"John Mccain spends Memorial Day in Syria with the alCIAda rebels.........."

Holy jumpin-jasper! Take a look at those fancy dressed "rebels" in camo.

So this is the new scam? Dressed battle ready American soldiers being called rebels? Pretty darn deceptive.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 05:28 | 3602949 CutOut
CutOut's picture

HEART, we are still waiting for an explanation.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 09:11 | 3603203 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Too bad they didn't cut his head off with a rusty bow saw.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:48 | 3602223 nofluer
nofluer's picture

Herd... stop and think for just a sec before you hyperventilate. If all the profits go to the 1%, and manufacturing is automated, and all the machines and resources are owned by the 1%, there will BE NO PROFITS because there will be no customers with the money or credit to BUY anything!!! For the rich to get richer, there has to be a measure of balance between the worlds of buyers and sellers or THERE IS NO MARKET AND MONEY and wealth BECOMES WORTHLESS!!!

With all this hankie waving going on, we need to go allll the way back to Adam Smith (Remember "The Invisible Hand"?) and look at some fundamental principles.

And while everyone is saying that default, hyperinflation or war are the ONLY ways out.... never forget the ubiquitous and totally unpredictable existence and manifestations of Black Swans! (See "The Black Swan" and the follow up book, "Antifragile" - both by Nassim Nicholas Taleb.)

My favorite maxim is the Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times." because that is exactly where we are. Or would you rather live in dull uninterestng times? (Mankind only seems to advance and grow when the fertilizer hits the spreader.)

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:47 | 3602349 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Your last sentence in parentheses is spot on.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:31 | 3602541 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Q in X-Factor Event...


1) Faked alien Invasion

2) Man made 'natural' disaster

3) Disease Pandemic

4) War

5) ?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:29 | 3602538 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Your point about the rich needing buyers in order to get richer is correct but only on the assumption that the rich would utilize a market.  You also refer to Adam Smith but I suggest you look further back.  Think medieval - kings and queens and a whole lotta serfs.  No market necessary, just serfs and soldiers (drones and robots anyone?).  Throw in digital snooping (NSA/FBI tapping, people turning themselves and everyone they know in on Facebook, GPS tracking in your phone and car...) and they could conceivably know all, see all, and, if not control all, kill those they cannot.

PS, try the Monsanto seeds.  They are delish this time of year.



Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:53 | 3602611 prains
prains's picture

Ken  Lay was CEO of a criminal enterprise called ENRON and their crimes were aided and abetted by Anderson Accounting

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 04:12 | 3602914 prains
prains's picture

just running a ZH thought police test

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 08:50 | 3603137 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

***For the rich to get richer, there has to be a measure of balance between the worlds of buyers and sellers***

The worst thing a parasite can do is kill it's host. Successful parasites keeps the host alive. The parasitic oligarchic 1% in this country haven't realized yet the they need a middle class to feed of of. Kill of the middle class and the parasites die as well.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 09:13 | 3603206 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Feudalism. Slavery.  Both of those economic systems could be operated and basically are being operated even now.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:20 | 3601739 trollin4sukrz
trollin4sukrz's picture

No but most of them have nice tits.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:43 | 3601801 trollin4sukrz
trollin4sukrz's picture

we will NOT tolerate any conspiracy theories.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:19 | 3601881 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

"Obama will pay for my gas & mortgage"

~Peggy Joseph [2008]

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:51 | 3601976 trollin4sukrz
trollin4sukrz's picture

moar foodstamps free porn and a hoverround will keepem happy.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:28 | 3602010 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



SGT Report UNBOUND: PROOF The U.S. Gov't Has Fallen To A Fascist Coup

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:58 | 3602100 trollin4sukrz
trollin4sukrz's picture

all the ussa women over 30 are so fvkin fat the hoveround has to be reinforced. wtf is the problem? too much corn syrup? if a guy dont fvk fatassed bitchez ya dont get laid. no wonder we are all depressed and have to eat those fvkin pills to get a hardon. fvkin sows is not a lot of fun.. shit this sux.


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:59 | 3602105 ponzisaurus
ponzisaurus's picture

not enuf exercise-get to work slacker

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:10 | 3602125 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

you can still fly to other countries and fuck their women

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:47 | 3602588 prains
prains's picture


you are the ZH jump the shark, very sad day 

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 05:19 | 3602947 sadmamapatriot
sadmamapatriot's picture

You never heard of more cushion for the pushin'?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:30 | 3601605 Doña K
Doña K's picture

Find a place 2,000 meters ASL or higher and you're gonna be okay.

But......deficits don't really matter do they?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:17 | 3601730 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Are you saying that the earth, whose diameter is 12,742 km's and 80% covered by water, is going to see the sea rise by 2 km's?  Kinda dramatic, no?



Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:03 | 3601845 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

we will need a lot of growth in order to start paying that thing to "normal." obviously the Fed will have to monetize to zero in the meantime. 100 year bonds anyone? at least 70 year ones. at the same time i absolutely agree with ORI that "war is a coming." not a "Cold War" or something along the lines of "head games on steroids" the usual "formalized" stuff. when i grew up it was all "go west for opportunity" from the folks who'd made it up here. now they're saying "it's the military" and i agree with them. all that paydown of student debt will be done on the battlefield. insofar as the State and Local stuff...that will have to be done by a very weakened if not existent American consumer. hmmm. "definitely going to need a jobs programs on steroids" to make that one work. i mean not only hiring but actually pay would have to double from here...and in very short order....

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:20 | 3602146 Poor Grogman
Poor Grogman's picture

The "war is inevitable" paradigm overlooks one fundamental historical difference.

Even the worlds top sociopaths care for their OWN survival and wellbeing, thus war in the nuclear age is dangerous for them as they cannot guarantee their own safety. Any war big enough to make a real difference to the global ponzi would have potential Nuclear risk.
The current and future proposed skirmishes in the middle east aren't going to save the fiat system in the long run.

The sociopaths among us are smart enough to realize that there is nowhere safe for them anymore if things get really out of shape, therefore my guess is that they will try and manage a somewhat orderly continuation of some variation of the present system. (it works well for them).

From a more distant perspective

When you reach The tipping point of a roller coaster ride. Things actually do slow down and seem almost normal and under control for a few seconds.

That is, before the screaming starts...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:36 | 3602186 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

The lesson of the 20th century is, these sociopaths don't go to war unless they control both sides, or its highly asymmetric (think America vs Vietnam, the British Empire at its peak vs the Boers in Transvaal).

All the major wars in the last 100 years, both sides were under control of one group.  That way you can prolong it as required, and maximize the post-war debt loads, not to mention control the outcome. 

How early on did the Allies break the cryptography of the Axis again?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 08:45 | 3603121 Weisshaupt
Weisshaupt's picture

I will buy a group might conspire to start a war. However,  someone always gets greedy.  Sociopaths always betray one another


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:34 | 3602550 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Good comments.  War by proxy is the way of things now for that reason, I think.  Far more discretionary warfare, with as little media coverage as possible. 

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 02:38 | 3602863 Fake_nation
Fake_nation's picture

Very good point. War is the grand historical sense is quickly becoming a thing of the past. This isn't to say that the world is becoming more peaceful, just that we're much more likely to see ongoing micro-eruptions of violence rather than mass warfare.

Several reasons for this:

1. Nukes, as has been pointed out.

2. Dissolution of national identities in multiculturalism/globalization. The west is fighting with itself moreso than with external enemies, and the rest of the world is in more of a state of tribal chaos than intense nationalism. 

3.  Changes in media that melt away old nationalist myths that drove war. The newspaper/radio were unifying forces that allowed a centralized agenda. Now, for better or worse, everybody has their head in their own little private universe of iNformation. This creates apathy toward society as a whole, the opposite of the old patriotic fervor. 

4. Shifts in media from the textual, which hide the images of war, to the photographic, which show the horrors of war firsthand. Vietnam was the last major symmetric war we tried to fight, and television sent devastating images back to the home-front that undermined support.  Hence Iraq and Afghanistan's very strict control on media images, no pictures of coffins, etc, but those barriers are being broken down by increasingly micro technologies. War demands myths that literal photographic reproduction undermine.

5. The technologies of war are getting so precise and specific as an accommodation to the nuclear stalemate. "Terrorists" are the new enemy, drones and information the weapons, and the generals are still fighting the last war.

6. Collapsing governments decay into internal strife and not outward militarism. Soviet Union is the model of this kind of post-WWII collapse, and America will probably look more like it than Nazi Germany. The ideology is failed, the people don't believe but don't see any alternative, and the union is slowly showing fissures. The empire ends not with a bang, but with a whimper. 

We at Fakenation highly recommend The Gulf War Did Not Take Place as further reading on the subject of fake media wars. When Baudrillard wrote that TV was still able to craft a meta-narrative, however- now every single media story is met with a counter conspiracy theory online. We're fast becoming a nation of lone wolves that believe nothing. Those that still believe are just the next round of layoffs away from joining the ranks of 'conspiracy theorists'.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 07:18 | 3603003 esum
esum's picture

to point 4.   We were not at war in viet nam. it was a police action to win their hearts and minds. if we were really at war we would have BOMBED THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF N. VIETNAM... we did that from U Tapao thailand... Everytime we did, NVN begged to negotiate. So after 53000+ casualties we leave with nada to show for it, plus those who helped us got destroyed. We are now negotiating to rent the deep water port at can ranh bay.. We never fought in the tea plantations or michelin rubber plantations... and we never invaded the north..  is that "war"... we dont win anymore. the troops are the best killing machine ever on the planet. The generals are third rate, political players who dont know how to play (patreaus) let the politicians run the war, and cow tow to the politicians who are pc cunts. 



Tue, 05/28/2013 - 03:27 | 3602892 DrewJackson
DrewJackson's picture

Of course there is somewhere safe for sociopaths....   Have you not been informed of the District of Columbia??  Manhatten? 

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 06:33 | 3602973 drdolittle
drdolittle's picture

Hope that's not what she's saying. I thought aliens were gonna kill everyone below 2000 feet.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:01 | 3601839 max2205
max2205's picture

Come to DC...Land of milk and honey....

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:22 | 3601892 bonderøven-farm ass
bonderøven-farm ass's picture

Change you can bereave in.....

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:17 | 3601578 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Circuses are fine, you and I are aware of such things, but yes, nothing changes until the fucking bread stops flowing.  The theft and fraud and misallocation of captial and resources continues.  Again, nothing changes until the blood starts flowing, en mass.  Again History is very clear on this.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:19 | 3601659 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Agree. also think things are MUCH more connected, controlled, faster and depleted than ever.

and war is not exclusive of the first two options. In fact, war is accelerating the likelihood of one of the first two. History "bears" that out too

Think you mean OUR blood. Most of those democracy exercises seem elsewhere. Sure there's soldiers but the only domestic decapitations seems to be the first ten amendments.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:32 | 3601924 new game
new game's picture

darwin and war are not mutually exclusive.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:49 | 3601816 SimMaker
SimMaker's picture

Is'nt there some line in the constitution or somewhere, that says if Amercia goes to war with another nation, then any debt owed by America to that other nation, is considered null and void?

Can't help but wonder if the best option for the Americans would be to start a war between China and Japan. Thats where most of the jobs and debt have gone. Let them destroy each other, again......the debt gets written off and manufactuing comes back to good ole' US of A.......Fuck Yeah!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:38 | 3602193 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Its looking quite likely (China vs Japan)... But I suspect by then North American wages will be 1/3 of what they are currently (loss of reserve currency status).

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 21:34 | 3602446 Mike7.62
Mike7.62's picture



In a word, no, there's nothing in the US Constitution or in the Declaration of Independence concerning abrogation of debt should we declare war on another country. It has been our history to suspend the gold standard (our gold standard) in past conflicts but that doesn't apply today.Here's a link to the US Constitution that you can peruse at liesure, and pay particular attention to Article I Section 8 concerning the powers delegated to Congress.


I'm sure that if we declared war on another country, that we would suspend debt payments to said country for the duration, but there are examples of the US continuing to conduct business with belligerent powers even though war has been declared by either of both parties, and banksters have historically ignored conflicts and conducted business through third parties or directly in neutral countries such as Switzerland.


Be careful what you wish for as any war between major powers today would make the Fukushima disaster seem like small potatoes.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:36 | 3602554 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

in my book, it's all odious debt.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:40 | 3602567 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

That would only, possibly not guaranteed, make our current symptoms better.  It would not fix the problems that lead us to this mess to begin with.  In other words, it'll all just fall apart again.

We need to sort the cause not the affect.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:07 | 3602114 trollin4sukrz
trollin4sukrz's picture

 is Gog Magog. Shit is going to get real very soon. going to be a great show.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 00:07 | 3602726 suicidalpsychologist
suicidalpsychologist's picture

Life is war, struggle for survival daily for all life forms. Plants need to grow faster than their peers to get more sunlight, animals fight each others for included. Our thoughts fight each others constantly, elders fight against youths, women against men, ethnies against others ethnies, religions against others religions, yes, life IS war. A giant free for all, every single life form only defending its own interests/ survival at the expense of others life forms if necessary.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:08 | 3601560 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

Yup. History may even say that it has already started. The inevitablity of WWIII makes some sense of American foreign policy. Doesn't make it right or moral, but it does help to make some sense of things.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:31 | 3601607 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

On the radical site Veterans Today, an article forecasts major war involving US and Russia as just about inevitable

Author says that the reason the corrupt mainstream media has joined the Obama-bashing, the various scandals - IRS, AP, Benghazi etc. - is to box in Obama with an implicit threat, so he goes along with starting World War III in the Middle East

The reason for World War III being 'necessary', says the article, is that the US will collapse without the Petro-Dollar, and they cannot preserve the Petro-Dollar unless they bring down the Iranian government, which they cannot do because of Syria and the Russians ...

While the Russians and Chinese cannot allow the US to take control of Iranian as well as Saudi oil

Hence, says the author, World War III is the last roll of the dice for the US Fed and oligarch families, with the corollary the US then goes directly into more explicit dictatorship:

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:40 | 3601635 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Fortunately for most of us, the energy to accomplish any of this, just isn't there.  Long black markets and sharecropping.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:22 | 3601742 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

Sorry, I can not see WWIII. Many conflicts yes! too many nukes.



Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:30 | 3601760 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Many conflicts around the world is worse.  Many a person's misery is ended with a single nuke (forget who said it).  When supply lines break, because of these conflicts, and people are faced with choices like eating their dead, you tell me who is "worse off."  Sorry, quality of life matters.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:39 | 3601791 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

You're right that quality of life matters, but when push comes to shove, most people get really tenacious about hanging on to life, or as Shakespeare said, not going into "...the undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveller returns...".

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:23 | 3601898 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Proxy wars.  I still don't think we will see direct shots fired between Russia, China, US.

China takes out their rage on Japan, through economic warfare, primarily, and by taking their sphere of influence (South Korea? South China sea?)

Russia continues to hold Europe for ransom (natural gas/oil).

America continues to be robbed/de-industrialized.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:40 | 3602066 KickIce
KickIce's picture

Sooner or later a super power is going to get boxed into a corner and imo opinion it will be Japan.

Also, there's a ton of money on the sidelines and inflation is being controlled by suppressing demand and by the bankers keeping money out of circulation.  When the SHTF there will be a mad dash for anything real, the sudden influx of money will bring hyper inflation and war.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:47 | 3601810 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

WW3 is in progress. And nukes? There are no nukes, just like money, there's no money, only promises.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:44 | 3602576 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

Nobody's gonna be nukin' no one.  Now, even more than in the past, wars are for resources and nukes' destructive power makes them unsuitable for that.  Germs with a long incubation period; that's what we need to worry about.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 23:21 | 3602662 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

You might not see WWIII but you sure will feel it...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:40 | 3601795 Not Too Important
Not Too Important's picture

The Iranians have nothing to do with the end of the petrodollar.

Now the Chinese, that's another story, and every country in the world is lining up to do business in yuan. Clearly the Kiwi's are next, as they all follow the leader.

The VT article is a complete distraction for those that don't understand what's really going on.

Iran is nothing more than the US getting involved in the centuries old dispute between the Shi'ia and Sunni sects.

See #8 & 9. Those numbers are not lost on anybody. Having the largest military in the world can't stop the erosion of economic competitiveness, or the desire to avoid having the City of London run your country.

We are truly a nation of dumbshits.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 21:42 | 3602459 cape_royds
cape_royds's picture

If Iran should ever deploy a practical nuclear weapon, then it becomes too costly and too unpredictable for an outside power to destroy their sovereignty.

If Iran's sovereignty cannot be destroyed at will by an outside power, then Iran's government can at least to some extent successfully defy that outside power.

If Iran's government can defy an outside power, then they need not accept that outside power's ever-depreciating fiat currency in payment for their country's exports.

If that outside power is ever-increasingly dependent upon ever-increasing output of its ever-depreciating currency to sustain its consumption level, then that outside power would regard a robust, defensible Iranian sovereignty as a rather alarming development in world affairs.

Because if Iran succeeds in defying the fiat currency hegemon, others will start to follow their example, and demand better value in exchange for their exports.

So even though Iran is nowhere near being a great power, even if they did get some nukes, they nevertheless pose a danger to a certain highly over-leveraged global hegemonic power, whom I need not name.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:04 | 3602496 Treason Season
Treason Season's picture


Duff currently serves on the boards of the Adamus Group, one of the world’s largest energy technology firms and of a private financial institution participating in the Federal Reserve Banking group.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 12:03 | 3603771 Blanche DuBois
Blanche DuBois's picture

Duff=controlled opp.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 02:03 | 3602840 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

You may be on to something.  HSBC is advertising on its website that: "2013 will be remembered as the year of the RMB".

You connect the dots.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:20 | 3602013 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

Visited a relative's (Vet) grave outside of DC this weekend....stayed with a buddy in Springfield, Virginia, a Burb of DC. I was surprised to see how many foreclsoures and "pre" foreclosures there were in this "robust recovery"...see for yourself:,new_lt/pmf,pf_p...


And this when interest rates are at an All-Time Low and EZ Credit is rampant. What happens when the market (or Ben) raises rates?  Housing's gonna get real ugly...gonna have to put an Ugly Bag over its head.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:41 | 3602202 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Richest part of the country too!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:23 | 3602293 RECISION
RECISION's picture

Don't know if your part of the world is anything like mine - but while mortgage rates might be near all time lows, ANY other lending is at credit card rates, and the banks are frantic about security on the loan.

Outside of the State sponsored Bubble things are getting REAL....

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:36 | 3602321 Promethus
Promethus's picture

Do you really think that the oligarchs who have run this great country into the ground and screwed up EVERYTHING they touch can orchistrate a complex plan to get the US into WWIII? With the gong show clowns we have now we'll wind up fighting Norway and lose.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 21:20 | 3602422 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Incompetence vs complicity

To have people think you are merely incompetent can turn out to be  a blessing in disguise.   After all, no one was ever convicted of treason just for being stupid!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:49 | 3602352 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

...they cannot preserve the Petro-Dollar unless they bring down the Iranian government

And why are the Iranians the linchpin of the petro dollar? Interesting storyline...almost like someone at VT has a war to sell.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:15 | 3601570 Mr. Fix
Mr. Fix's picture

There is currently a global war on individual freedom, in support of global tyranny.

 The vast majority of the damage is being accomplished without the use of  the military-industrial complex.

 President Obama all by himself has done far more damage to the United States then our most well armed adversaries could ever dream of accomplishing.

 I guess it's fairly easy to destroy the United States of America, while you live in the White House, and have the support of a corrupt government and media.

 I suspect that even those entities that would like to see the United States destroyed, are just sitting back and laughing while Obama does for them.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:56 | 3601674 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

If u think Obama started or will finish this democapitalist vascetomy, then the big boys have already won you over.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:42 | 3601800 Not Too Important
Not Too Important's picture

I think Mr. Fix is just commenting on the current hire. There will be more hires, each worse than the one before.

The job clearly doesn't require much of a CV.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:52 | 3602092 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Clearly.   Mr. Obama just happened upon the crime scene and was dumb enough to pick up the bloody murder weapon.  Classic B-Movie stuff.  Of course he's gonna get blamed.   I said dumb, didn't I?  At least he can say "nuclear".

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:59 | 3602376 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

I think there is a difference between a president who is destroys our economy out of greed or ignorance and one who, like many here, believe that his goals cannot be achieved unless our economy and society ARE destroyed. There is a real belief by many that the only thing that will do is a clean slate. Unfortunately that usually only works out well for the most pwerful and brutal among us. If America falls, the world falls with it. Not because we are so great but because we are the only hope against totalworld wide tyranny. Its probably already too late, But read Alynsky, Skousen and others and they will draw you the road map to our destruction, and Obama is a key operative. I know many on the left here believe their motives are pure and they are only driving for the good of all, but don't let your ideology blind you to reality and history. This is not new.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 00:04 | 3602717 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Obviously I stepped on some toes.  I think more out of my inability to explain myself than anything else -- which I won't take the time to do here.  It's all a political ploy and I refuse to play.  Left /right, blue / red, they all suck.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 00:38 | 3602770 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

In a purely political sense there isn't much difference but i believe we have passed that point. Many have supported so called conservatives as we felt we had no choice. They have effectively enabled a more or less continual push to the progressive left. From a political perspective, when we see our side screwing up or capitulating to a lesser goal, we say there is no difference, but if you believe as i do, you would see corruption combined with larger goals pushing us ever closer to an ideological end game. Socialism like every other ism is being used to agregate power and wealth. What can't be taken through taxation and devaluation will be taken through redistribution schemes such as healthcare reform and welfare. I suppose ideology doesn't matter but after reading their warnings for fifty years and then seeing it playing out, it kind of barks out at you. All that really matters is that they are dividing and manipulating us to ultimately end up with a relatively few in charge with lttle recourse for the rest of us.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 07:21 | 3603008 drdolittle
drdolittle's picture

I assumed he was going  get "Cartered" in his first term (blamed for the economic mess he inherited) but I think a brown man as prez is ust too useful. Liberal guild plus the support of one for certain and a large portion of another voting bloc

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:48 | 3602221 Mr Sunshine
Mr Sunshine's picture

We have not seen anyting yet, just the warm up phase of HOPE AND CHANGE! Why do you think the feds are buying so much armour piercing bullets for homeland security. Hunting fellow americans will soon be in season. Good bye sweet america.


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:22 | 3601744 stocktivity
stocktivity's picture

It's all Bullshit!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:30 | 3602207 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

...and it's BAD FOR YOU.....

RIP George

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:31 | 3601980 ponzisaurus
ponzisaurus's picture

The stats above demonstrate world war nuclear is not a desired outcome.  That reset would have been done long ago if a desired outcome.  Having the unwashed masses dieing is one thing, spending the rest of your life in a concrete hole is another.  War wastes too much real wealth- resources, everyone realizes it now.

Consume less

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:43 | 3602209 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

War has always been about resources.  If you can only defeat your enemy by scorched earth then its likely not worth it.

Its was worth it for the Brits to scorch the shit out the Boers because the Brits wanted the gold that was in the ground, they had no qualms burning farm houses and pastures.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:55 | 3602097 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

"It's Saint Andrew's fault"...


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:10 | 3602509 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

You forgot one.  The USA collapses, either breaking up or reconsitituting itself whole, and starts over from scratch.  A country that no longer exists cannot default.  USSA here we come.


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:52 | 3602610 prains
prains's picture

Ken Lay was CEO of a criminal enterprise called ENRON and their crimes were aided and abetted by Anderson Accounting

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:32 | 3601610 Akrunner907
Akrunner907's picture

The doom and gloom is okay, but we have at least another 5 to 7 years before any type of critical mass is achieved.  

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:23 | 3601895 Relentless
Relentless's picture

I don't see a big blow up or collapse. I see several decades of steadily grinding you lower and lower while the governments of the world lie to you. Like the frog in boiling water, one day you will wake up to find yourself in an Orwellian world of mass poverty and corrupted power. Stack what you can, grow what you can, form communities, in the end you'll be co-opted for "The Good Of the State"...blah..blah.."True Patriotism Requires Sacrifice"..blah

Find what you can that makes you truly happy and maximise it because we're in for a truly terrible 30 years.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:26 | 3601752 DosZap
DosZap's picture

#18 At this point, an astounding 53 percent of all American workers make less than $30,000 a year.


At this point I doubt 53% of Americans are even EMPLOYED.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 02:10 | 3602847 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I know of 3 guys who used to make a 6-figure salary, until they started spouting off ZH lines and mantras at work.  They are now looking for work.  Their separation was handled with 'kid gloves', to avoid publicity or litigation, I heard.  Fascists!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:33 | 3601920 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

According to #20 in 2007 the bottom 95% of American income earners had $1.48 of debt for every dollar earned, which means they had negative savings.

Later at #22 - 400 wealthiest Americans had more wealth than the bottom 150 mil Americans combined. Does that mean that the wealth of the rich was "equally negative"? What about WalMart family in #23? They own as much as the bottom 33% Americans. Well, didn't we just say that those poor suckers had minus-dollar-fitty per dollar?

How do apples compare to minus-oranges?

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:56 | 3602096 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Nearly the entire article is sensationalist gobbledegook.  What do U. S. "statistics" have to do with the population totals of other countries?   There is no correlation whatsoever.   Weird, and on the verge of stupid.

#32 Today, the number of Americans on Social Security Disability now exceeds the entire population of Greece, and the number of Americans on food stamps now exceeds the entire population of Spain.


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:47 | 3601968 km4
km4's picture

America today is biggest Banana republic ever so if you're not in 2% club then you're a

  1. wannabe
  2. have not
  3. f*cked
Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:22 | 3602037 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

4. didn't wannabe

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:56 | 3602240 Holleyman
Holleyman's picture


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 21:09 | 3602400 auntiesocial
auntiesocial's picture

41. If your neighbor loses his job, it's a recession. If you lose your job it's a depression...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:08 | 3602500 AmCockerSpaniel
AmCockerSpaniel's picture

#13 I just can't say enough about the cost of  so called "free trade".

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 14:55 | 3601539 PontifexMaximus
PontifexMaximus's picture

But: BB is providing liquidity as much as markets need. All those infos are déjà-vu, good for a closed US market, move on and tomorrow, algos are steaming ahead.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 14:55 | 3601540 Seer
Seer's picture

Seems to correlate quite nicely with the decline of NATURAL CAPITAL, no?  Oh, but we cannot talk about That! (because there is NOTHING that we can do about That; also, it's not really game-able, so all the "economic" trickery can't operate when the tide goes out on this one)

Bad decisions... the WORST one EVER was in setting up an entire social model on the premise that there can be perpetual growth on a finite planet!

Fucking pikers...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:26 | 3601596 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

Actually there's quite a bit of talk about that. Probably as much as any other topic that is taboo to the mainstream media. I see you talking about it all the time.

I live in OK, and things grow here when you drop seeds into the ground, just about everywhere. Forests grow from which you can harvest trees for housing, and crops can grow which can provide materials for clothing. In North America there's enough land to provide an acre for every individual on the planet. Those are the basic needs and we're nowhere near being unable to secure them. So your argument really is, 'we can't keep doing things exactly as we have been, because the cheap oil is disappearing'. OK.

But says who, and with what enforcement mechanism? Are you going to force a worldwide one child policy? Ration energy? Confiscate wealth so that government can piss it away on phony energy schemes?

This is an argument in search of a purpose: it's not going to change - we're going to keep drilling and fracking for whatever oil we can find, and as the price increases the uses will become more selective due to market forces. At some point it will become economical to develop other forms of energy; the trend should be toward miniaturization of technology and energy, small nuclear plants have been developed which appear to be safe and can power individual communities. No cooling ponds, just a self-contained unit that runs for decades. I'm not saying THAT is the solution, but it's one possibility that is already here. Either way, the solution isn't government compulsion, its free markets. The former never works, with some basic regulation and oversight the latter does work. Will we all be 'poorer' in 30 years? Maybe, but only measured against our profligate materialistic society. Does man live a more rewarding life based on the satiation of physical impulses and desires, or of the mind? The end of cheap oil doesn't mean the end of humanity.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:31 | 3601608 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:36 | 3601623 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

+1, sterling. It was central planning got us into this mess, more of it will just distort it worse.

Laws of Markets, physics and nature will fix it.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 15:38 | 3601626 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"In North America there's enough land to provide an acre for every individual on the planet."  - Is it arable land, does it have access to water 24/7? what about Nitrogen, sulfur, phorphorus etc., are these element in  the correct oxidation state (getting them there requires energy)?    There are approxoimately 6,050,697,738 acres in all of North America and 7,000,000,000 people, so you are a little short.  By the way, more than one third is fucking desert.  That's yours.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:11 | 3601705 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

you can feed at least ten people an acre on permaculture (read natural) principles. Most land can be regenerated including desert if we just stopped being so idiotic. Our modern use of animals and mass grazing in one location perpetually is absolutely stupid and destructive. Nature never worked like that (and never will). Desert is our modern dessert.

See Geoff Lawton, Bill Mollison, Fukuoka and other leaders.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:22 | 3601732 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I did the experiment.  I fed a family of four from four acres.  You are a complete fool if you think it can be done with less and without external intervention from time to time (insects and nutrients get out balance in complex systems).  Lot's of propaganda out there on this, but few have actually tried.   I already know the propagandists.  Everyone has their own agenda to "sell", move along.  Beside, folks would have to give up their "toys" and dedicate 100% of their time to it.  Not going to happen, even if it could.  People will go to war over the fucking water before we even get close.  By the way, you cannot "convert" all desert, some is essential concrete, if you did, you would waste tremendous energy and resorces doing so. Better to build hydroponic systems closer to water/soil sources and simply start stacking.  Fucking tools everywhere.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:36 | 3601753 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Let's see which propagandists should I believe? Monsanto and the oil / banking system or folks who essentially mimic the natural system(s) that human beings (and animals) have relied upon since...the beginning of time.

You are one of many experiments. And many other folks have produced better results. Permaculture is about vertical efficiency and self sustaining systems. and a very WIDE diversity of inputs, plants and competitors. That's how nature works. You're right, things get out of balance temporarily in natural systems BUT natural systems self correct. It's only this really dumb species that fucked it all up. And swales on contour can capture water literally anywhere and rehydrate aquifers and the landscape. Foresest are the mature and natural consequence of most land evolution for a reason.

 Don't get me wrong, I agree with you (and often do). We will go to war because we are fools and criminals but not because other options do not exist.  Mosto fthe resource problems have been exponentially multiplied by oil subsituting (and damaging) the only perpetual systems. Human population has gotten out of wack because of it and will take a painfull correction. But that doesn't mean these other systems can't help. There's no choice anyways because these are the ony systems that work. We might as well start.   

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:37 | 3601779 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I have said nothing of big oil/monsanto, so I don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I have several heirloom seeds and have had to go to court over shit that has "floated" onto my property.  I have 30+ years of hands on experience and know much about theory versus actual practice.  If by "self-correct" you mean extinction, then yes, you are correct.  Potable water and honeybees/pollenators have the potential to accelerate this now, never mind the cycle imbalances and energy required to correct the latter (much less implement some new strategy).  Several unbiased and peer-reviewed works have shown that we have long since passed the tipping point as far as other options saving everyone.  Is what it is, a dependable tribe and forsight will go a long ways, same as it ever was.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:54 | 3601828 Not Too Important
Not Too Important's picture

The Fukushima radiation is killing off the plankton that provides over 60% of our oxygen. The radiation has thoroughly saturated the entirety of the NA continent, which will eventually render all agriculture hazardous. It is now, but getting worse.

This doesn't include the millions of tons of powdered aluminum being sprayed, falling on our agriculture. Science doesn't know what this will do,

All the seafood in the North Pacific is radioactive. Most of the seafood in the Gulf of Mexico is contaminated with Corexit and dissolved oil. Between this and all the GMO foods, we are eating nothing but highly cancerous poisoned/radiated food.

Our water is full of birth control hormones, radiation and aluminum. We're running out of sperm and what's left will be riddled with cancer.

In the next generation, the radiation mutated babies will be too awful to be allowed to live. They will be killed in the delivery room, just like they do in Japan. Two generations from now  there will be almost no one healthy enough to work.

We can argue over agriculture, energy, water supply, economics, politics, corruption, on and on. None of this changes what is coming to hit us all up side our collective heads, and that's without any more nuke plants going tits up - which they all seem to be starting to do.

None of this is lost on our masters, and they have decided full totalitarian authority is the best way to deal with it.

On this Memorial Day, every military SOB in the ground is spinning, for in the end their sacrifice was completely wasted. They didn't die so the Fourth Reich could rise.


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:20 | 3602520 TuPhat
TuPhat's picture

NTI, bull!

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:36 | 3601777 Helvetico
Helvetico's picture

People greatly underestimate the knowledge required to successfully raise crops. Not only that, but they think raising lettuce and tomatoes in their patio garden is going to "feed their family." No it won't. You need a staple food to provide the vast majority of calories in your diet: wheat, rice, potatoes, etc. 

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:38 | 3601785 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Your body will function on staples, buyt you also need high density protein for that big brain, this is the kicker.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:56 | 3601830 Not Too Important
Not Too Important's picture

I see you have seen 'The Road'.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:38 | 3601943 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Lots of squirrels, raccoons, deer, otters, birds, lizards where I live.  30 minute bike ride from town, which I think is a nice balance between close to civilization, and not in the midst of potential chaos.   Lots of rabbits in town.  They just let them breed for years...

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:56 | 3602368 TheMeatTrapper
Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:03 | 3602008 ponzisaurus
ponzisaurus's picture


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:08 | 3602011 ILLILLILLI
ILLILLILLI's picture

Need to have something like this:

Storage of 300K pounds of grains, 60K sq.ft. raised beds, 67K sq.ft. greenhouses. Also has 40,000 dairy cows within 10 miles, 5,000 of them within walking distance.


Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:54 | 3602095 Rustysilver
Rustysilver's picture


And you need this year after year not just one season.  Many Scandinavian and Irish emigrated because of famine and lock of consistent food supply.

This also the reason that Scandinavia, Germany, Poland, Baltic states have different work ethics. If you don't prepare for winter you die.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:52 | 3601821 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

LP, you are the King of no nonsense.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 20:53 | 3602364 TheMeatTrapper
TheMeatTrapper's picture


I agree 100%. For the past two years I have trapped all the red meat and fish my family of three eats. It takes a substantial investment in traps, equipment and takes several years to learn how to do it. It also takes transportation to get to and from trapping spots, as well as energy to butcher, grind and freeze the meat.

It also takes a LOT of time to catch, skin, butcher and prepare the meat and pelts properly. I spend three days a week for several months to do it, and spend nights all week butchering and fleshing. 

People have no idea how much time and work is involved in being self sufficient in food. Most so called survivalists are little more than hobbyists. 

It's funny how many people want me to "give them" some meat to try if I have "any I don't need"; yet not a damn one ever offers to wade out into the swamp and help drag beavers through the mud. Most are long eating and short working.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 00:08 | 3602729 kareninca
kareninca's picture

Also, regions get "trapped out" and "hunted out" very quickly and easily.  I've read about the Adirondacks, and the Great Smokies area (Kephart), and during those times when more than a few people actually got their food that way, the forests were bare, nearly stripped clean of animals.  You could go for long periods of time seeing NO ANIMALS at all.  We're used to seeing deer and possums and wild turkey and woodchucks and squirrels all over the place e.g. in New England, because so few people eat them.  If they start to eat them, they'll be gone really fast.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 03:44 | 3602899 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

It can't serve as more than a stopgap for most people.  But thats what survival means.  Food will generally be available in the cities.  There may be questions of supply disruption (not being able to get what you want, or get to where you need) and price gouging though.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 10:27 | 3603457 FreeNewEnergy
FreeNewEnergy's picture

If you could only feed a family of four from four acres, you're doing something wrong. I would love to see what you planted where and what kind of plants/seeds you used.

Also, in an above post, you equated the land mass in North America to the entire population of the world. So I guess Asia, Europe, Africa, South America and Australia are to become barren wastelands?

Apple to apples would be nice, and, honest.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:59 | 3602251 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

that's a big HELL NO. you need a good 2.5 acres to feed healthy people that don't die by age 25 of malnutrition.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 22:52 | 3602602 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

eating what? Maybe with "traditional" agriculture, not with alternative methods. A lot less meat. A much wider variety of vegetation. A lot more knowledge that modern man has all but forgotten. A much healthier soil and system. Vertical systems (read natural with intelligent tweaks)) put out much much more per sqaure foot. B-12 is supplied by natural decomposed animal waste in the systems....  

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 01:12 | 3602804 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Tell you what. Give that 10 to 100 generations and yes, it will work.

Unfortunately those people will all be hobbits.

No, really, there is an island found with very, very small adult people (long dead), even small adult animals. I guess that's why. I consider that not a good choice, not a good end for us all. Then again maybe in some parts of nature it will work. It's far, far from ideal.

Less meat is less health: I'm healthy BECAUSE I eat meat and lots of it. Vegetarians are weak and frail.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 10:33 | 3603475 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

You're right. Deuce Lutui, Seahawks guard, Arian Foster, Texans running back, Tony Gonzales, Chief Tight End, Ricky Williams, Ravens running back, Tony Fiammetta, Cowboys fullback  - all pussies.

Better yet, tell them yourself.


Tue, 05/28/2013 - 14:37 | 3604461 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

And what protein supplements, strictly NON-vegetarian, do they eat?

Cheaters is more like it. You can't eat animal protein squished into pills & drinks from factories & be a real vegetarian.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 16:50 | 3601773 Floodmaster
Floodmaster's picture

??? phony energy schemes ??? spoils of war, bankster, equities etc... In this country everything that is not for the common good is subsidized(iron triangle). Electric power is everywhere present in unlimited quantities and can drive the world's machinery without the need of coal, oil, gas, or any other of the common fuels. Nikola Tesla

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 17:43 | 3601955 Balanced Integer
Balanced Integer's picture

I'd love to see a run-down of these sources of electrical power in "unlimited quantities" that will be able to power our industry without coal, oil, or gas.

Personally I'd love to see us go with LFTR (Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors) to provide a large portion of our electricity, but until we develop better batteries and engine technologies, petroleum and natural gas is going to be a mainstay for providing transportation into the foreseeable future.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:58 | 3602248 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

The limit is incredibly small. Those electric fields aren't powered by zero-point energy. We need them to keep radiation off us that will cook us in seconds and you can't extract gigawatts and terawatts of power except to destroy that protection.

Tesla invented a TRAANSMISSION system which generates NO POWER, it merely transmits power you need to find a way to SOURCE.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 18:21 | 3602023 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Water. I'm in OK and water is a real issue here. And fracking isn't helping. Nor is monoculture. I've lived in a desert climate most of my life and sadly the past couple of summers here in OK have been all too familiar.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:47 | 3602220 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Its been nothing but rain for weeks here in the Pacific Northwest. 

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 05:16 | 3602946 August
August's picture

Well, man, it's just not July yet.

Mon, 05/27/2013 - 19:56 | 3602242 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Given the rate of harvest required to feed people, without tractors running on that oil: yes, yes it does.

THEN there's the bees. Monsanto happily will see them all dead. Then we're all dead. They pollinate our food.

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