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Average Harvard Graduate Will Make $60,000 In Their First Job, And Other Crimson Trivia

Tyler Durden's picture


While the annual Harvard senior survey of graduating students always provides an informative glimpse into the past, present and future of graduates from the US' most prestigious (whether or not this is deserved is a different question) institution, the topics most interesting for us and our readers revolve, not surprisingly, around money.

Here are the key observations of what students in all "non-Harvard" universities across the nation may be missing (or not).

First, work plans:

  • 61 percent of graduates will be employed next year. 18 percent will enter graduate school right away. The rest will pursue fellowships or travel or are among the 10 percent who have not yet determined their post-graduation plans.
  • Of those who will be working, the most popular industry is consulting, drawing 16 percent of employed seniors.
  • Another 15 percent will be working in finance, nearly doubling the 9 percent who entered the sector last year but still paling in comparison to 2007, when before the financial crisis, 47 percent of graduating seniors went into finance. However, of the respondents only 5% said they will still be working in finance ten years down the line. Hilsenrath's take on what this means for Bernanke's "taper" is unavailable as of this posting.
  • 9 percent envision a career in government or politics, though only 4 percent will pursue one right away. Of course, Harvard grads will feel right at home at a place like Goldman where the fields of financen and government are finely fused into one inextricable union.

More importantly: cash, which at least to the non-trust funders and children of royalty and assorted oligarchs among the Harvard graduating class, is still somewhat important.

  • The average employed graduate will make roughly $60,000 in his or her first year out of Harvard, according to the survey results. But salaries vary tremendously across industries.
  • Among students working in consulting, the most popular field, 72 percent expect to earn between $70,000 and $90,000.
  • In the nearly equally popular financial sector, salaries are even higher—a full 21 percent of students entering that field will earn more than $110,000 in their first year on the job.
  • And technology can be still more lucrative—almost half of students entering the field will make $90,000 to $110,000 in their first year, and some will make even more.
  • For the 12 percent of employed students who will work in education—largely thanks to the popularity of Teach for America—70 percent expect to make between $30,000 and $50,000. Another 15 percent will work for less than that, and 9 percent do not yet know their salaries. Only 6 percent expect to earn more than $50,000, and none more than $70,000.
  • Salary differs noticeably between male and female students. Men are much more likely to appear in the highest pay brackets than women: Of the students who expect to earn more than $110,000 in their first year of work, three-quarters are male. Of those who will earn $90,000 to $110,000, men represent nearly two thirds. And those numbers come from a pool of respondents which included more women than men, suggesting that the true tallies are in fact slightly more weighted in men’s favor.
  • But industry alone does not explain the wage gap. Among students entering finance, men are still nearly four times as likely to earn more than $110,000 per year, and three times as likely to earn $90,000 to $110,000. Admittedly, the sample sizes are small. But the same holds true in consulting. And in technology and engineering, 79 percent of men expect to make more than $90,000, compared to just 44 percent of women in the same field.

And finally, miscellaneous:

  • Men like porn so much that 52 percent of them watch it online at least once a week. 14 percent of male students have never watched porn at all. But among women, just 6 percent watch porn as frequently as the majority of the men, and 63 percent have never watched any.
  • 9 percent of the class has used drugs like Adderall and Ritalin, which are prescribed for attention deficit disorders but often abused by students who hope the pills will help them focus on their studies.
  • 16 percent of the class has tried at least one of cocaine, ecstasy, mushrooms, LSD, and other illicit substances. Very large majorities of those who have used these drugs first tried them after starting college.
  • The survey also questioned students about their sex lives, finding that 72 percent enroll at Harvard as virgins and 27 percent graduate without having sex.

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Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:44 | 3605626 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Gee, adjusted for inflation, that's not much better than what I got in my first job out of a mickey mouse midwestern university.  Things are really looking bleak these days.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:48 | 3605636 ACP
ACP's picture

No kidding, how is that right, what with Facebook hiring interns for $6k/month?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:57 | 3605661 ghandi
ghandi's picture

In pecunia veritas.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:12 | 3605697 philipat
philipat's picture

How can new graduates work as consultants? What are they consulting on when they don't know anything about anything? A degree doesn't count for anything in the real world. It takes expereince to be able to add any value as a consultant.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:16 | 3605710 knukles
knukles's picture

"Just about every Harvard grad that I've ever met has been an arrogant self-centered, megalomaniacal, over rated cunt.  But please don't tell anyone I said this."

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:46 | 3605941 asdasmos
asdasmos's picture

If you could encapsulate everything wrong, it is this story

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 00:02 | 3606334 johnconnor
johnconnor's picture

$156k for taking naps is pretty good... 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:10 | 3608043 overbet
overbet's picture

so the union is sick of his freeloading. fucking classic

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:20 | 3605721 true brain
true brain's picture

"But among women, just 6 percent watch porn as frequently as the majority of the men,"


How come I never met any  of these women when I was in college.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:22 | 3605728 1C3-N1N3
1C3-N1N3's picture

They're all band nerds.

Quiet, introverted, perverted band nerd girls.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:23 | 3605730 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Those are the kids that don't say a word during any meeting, other than their introduction, then get stuck with all of the paperwork/followup.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:28 | 3605738 knukles
knukles's picture

OK, philipat...
Heres' the Newly Minted Harvard consultant's first try at advice...

"If your phone gets wet, leave it overnight in a bag of rice. It'll attract an Asian, who will fix it because they're good with electronics"


Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:13 | 3606020 philipat
philipat's picture


That's actually pretty good advice given the state of The US these days. But I'm not sure it's billable??

If they are so good at watching Porn, perhaps they should instead consider a career with The SEC?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:47 | 3605945 Tim Knight from...
Tim Knight from Slope of Hope's picture

"Let me tell you about what I read.........."

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:48 | 3605638 economics9698
economics9698's picture

"Men like porn so much that 52 percent of them watch it online at least once a week."  The Zionist are well represented...or should I say nihilist.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:25 | 3605734 NihilistZero
NihilistZero's picture

Don't equate us with Zionists...  We believe in nothing economics 9698...  NOTHING.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:37 | 3605908 economics9698
economics9698's picture


Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:16 | 3606048 bigtrade
bigtrade's picture

I'm starting to get really sick of ZH, simply beause of the commenters - most seem like apocalyptic minded community college graduates, that think they know what's going on or think that by reading a high level summary they actually understand things.


Here's the truth - 90% of Bulge Bracket / PE / HF / HFT / THINK TANK  WALL STREET went to a TOP 15 educational institution. I BET THAT 70% of ZH WRITERS WENT TO A TOP INSTITUTION.

90% of GOOD DOCTORS, LAWYERS, ENGINEERS (not mechanics or php script kiddies that make $120k a year running the ad platform for a website) RESEARCHERS went to a good institution.

Why the hell would ANYONE go to a lesser school when they could go to a good one ? Yes - some parents can afford it, but on the other hand, HARVARD, YALE and STANFORD are 100% NEED BLIND so here u go - the typical ZH commenter argument is invalid. ALSO - Legacies are only an extremely small percentage of admitted students every year.

WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE GO TO A SHITTY SCHOOL AND BE BITTER AND COMPLAIN ABOUT IVY LEAGUE PEOPLE HAVING BETTER JOBS AND SOCIAL STATUS AND "RIGGING THE GAME" WHEN THEY COULD HAVE GOTTEN INTO A TOP INSTITUTION ?  Why ? BECAUSE they're clearly not only not smart enough to get in, but not not even smart enough to realize the absurdity of their vocalization. 

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:28 | 3606091 gobsmack
gobsmack's picture

"Need blind" does not mean free. Work study and massive loans are not gifts from on high. I was 40 before I was finally free of student loans I took out at 12% to go to that place and not get laid.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 23:52 | 3606309 Jeff Lebowski
Jeff Lebowski's picture

Can you lighten up with the yelling? It's like screaming in my ear when I'm trying really hard to try to focus on masturbating to your superior intelligence.

I liked the part you clarified that a high level engineer is not a mechanic. We're you being ironic or is that you understanding of engineers?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 00:06 | 3606316 CD
CD's picture

While "where there's a will, there's a way" applies, and it WAS possible to get into top-tier ivies if you had the smarts to start preparing for admissions in grade 9, some corrections/modifiers to your otherwise true statements:

- you forgot Princeton

- the 100% need-blind thing is a relatively recent development. Even a few years ago, the expectation was a min. 10% family contribution + 10% loan

- "Legacies are only an extremely small percentage of admitted students every year." -- yeah, my estimate of 25-30% IS admittedly subjective, but it sure as hell ain't extremely small

- So does going to a private, exclusive $50-80K/yr tuition school from age 6, private tutors and coaching and the college prep programs of the likes of Philips Exeter NOT count towards being legacy, just cuz: a) yo' daddy went to a DIFFERENT Ivy League school, or b) yo' momma married into old money, c) your parents went to schools in Europe, cuz' US schools were so, so common....

Just because a few kids get in on their own merits, and claw their way (closer) to the top does not negate the ugly side of things -- bloated, hollow shells of plutocratic sociopaths are ALSO afforded a good/great/outstanding education and a guaranteed fast-track.

Hell, I wish I'd spent more time rubbing shoulders with those guys while learning to overcome my nausea and spontaneous homicidal urges... Would have made things a whole lot easier.

BUT, on the bright side -- outstanding minds, incredible intellectual vistas, lifelong friends and historical perspective were also gained.

You just have to learn how to game the system, if you are born without the frigging school-crest-decorated silver spoon up your ass. But the 25-30% estimate in another comment below as to the ratio of 'poor but smart' students seems possible. In my day 10-15 yrs ago it was more like 15-20%.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 05:03 | 3606573 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Princeton is the refuge of last resort for bozos like Krugman and Bernanke, so it should be the unspeakable of the names of the Ivies.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 01:40 | 3606459 didyoujustpullt...
didyoujustpullthatoutofyourass's picture

-1 for typing in all caps. Your opinion isn't more important than everyone elses. 

I din't go to one of your "top 15" schools. After getting off active duty I was accepted to Penn State, but I opted to move out to California, where I waited two years to set up residency, and went to Pepperdine University. I was accepted to Penn State and Pepperdine, and while they may not be "top 15", I'm not going to cower from someone with a degree from UC Birkenstock. I served my country, attended a top university, and now work as an operations manager for a fortune 50 company. Your Ivy League attitude is a joke. 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 04:03 | 3606546 venzen
venzen's picture

@bigtrade your typographic yelling is as effective as your argument. Point is, most people don't go to a "top" school because they choose to - firstly daddy must be wealthy enough to pay for it, then they have to "accept" you via various psychological checks and balances to ensure that you are a loyal patriot, that will be willing to do the nasty things that preserve society and NS.

The "shitty" school is shitty by design, if you don't believe me, er, Ell Hajj Malik Shabazz said so, ok?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 05:05 | 3606574 Wile-E-Coyote
Wile-E-Coyote's picture

Let me guess you are a Mexican immigrant who bought read and write English in 10 days, from an Arabic web site.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 07:43 | 3606756 Agstacker
Agstacker's picture

I'm starting to get really sick of ZH, simply beause of the commenters


I never went to a fancy school, but I believe I have a solution to your problem.  Don't visit this website, or as an alternative, don't read the comments.  

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 08:53 | 3606976 GRsilverking
GRsilverking's picture

I agree. MY kid is heading to Stanford because no one can take away a great education. 

ZH diggs up yiak or presents a gray issue as a black issue. Yet it's better than cnb-crop

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:35 | 3607119 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

I worked with a couple of Ivy guys, once. One was a Wharton graduate who was canned after a couple of years basically for being incompetent. The other was likewise a UPenn MBA grad who was similarly incompetent (and widely hated for it) but instead of being fired was promoted upwards (because of his race) so as to get him out of the way.

Ivies are nothing more than feeders for DC and Wall Street. You can get a fantastic engineering, medicine, science, etc. education at many, many institutions (here or abroad). The heavy hitters in academic scientific research aren't the Ivies anyway - it's mostly a mix of large state schools and well-funded technically-focused private schools.

Anecdote: my brother used to work in semiconductors and now works in solar as a lead research scientist/engineer. He's hired many engineers over the years in both fields and in his opinion the best candidates came from German universities as well as U.S. state schools with well-funded engineering programs. The MITers/Ivy Leaguers weren't bad, but nothing special, and too expensive. A degree is just a degree. Everyone studies the same crap.


Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:09 | 3607687 auntiesocial
auntiesocial's picture


Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:39 | 3607771 LooseLee
LooseLee's picture

Aren't these the same MORONS who crashed the system and begged the 'non-top school' graduates to BAIL THEM OUT. You live in ILLUSION, my friend, and are part of the PROBLEM; not the SOLUTION!

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:18 | 3606053 bigtrade
bigtrade's picture

Do you even understand half of the terms and articles on this website ? Or do you just take the apolcaiptic high level paragraphs and regurgitate to your friends ?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:25 | 3606073 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Or maybe you are just frustrated that half a retard can figure out what a disaster everything is. Therefore if you spent the big bucks at a top notch institution you apparently wasted your money.

FWIW I did not go to an ive league institution and I can make out pretty much everything being fed to me on here. So eat my ass.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:37 | 3606122 Joey9139122
Joey9139122's picture

I got hired straight out of trade school (vo-tech) and made $78k my first year. 5 years later and I should easily pull in $125k. This off an education that cost me $600/ semester for 21 hours and I did it in 3.5 semesters.

That's right... 0 student debt, easily over 100k/yr salary, pension, great benefits 401k and I work less than half the year.

Thanks oil &gas industry...

Harvard's full of chumps.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 03:08 | 3606511 Everything
Everything's picture

Well shit why doesn't everyone go to Oil&Gas then? True you get paid highly now. But you'll top out really quickly, guessing around $300k at the absolute most. In finance you can be a baller ibanker and rake in the money. Average comp for an analyst straight out of ugrad should be around $100k. The sky's the limit from then on if you play your cards right and move to private equity or a hedge fund.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:50 | 3607626 auntiesocial
auntiesocial's picture

Harvard Grad- 60K / 5K a month. without mummy and daddy giving them a down payment, what kind of crib can a Harvard Grad afford to buy, yo? 


Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:47 | 3605629 LuchadorChumba
LuchadorChumba's picture mas item for your 'miscellaneous' category...

99% of all citizens are deserved of lies. Soy mentiroso! So mi Zero Hedgers, be the best liar you can be. Mi estudiantes, we must exercise our forked tongues, not just to play with the gusano at the bottom of the Mescal bottle. Aye! Tell your family everythings alright, they demand it from you.

Tell your amigos that you're not sleeping with their esposas AND that their pension has never been safer. If you don't, you're not respecting their wishes.

If the conditions set forth by the public (uh, I mean the audience), hombres, hermanos, or our familia demands total truth not be said, or if somebody does not want the truth in any particular essential thing in their life, or if some baboso requires you to lie so that they can keep their belief system intact, its your obligation to use deception in anyway that benefits yourself. They are the ones responsible. They demanded their subjection.

Entonces, if you disagree, then you must then feel its ok to violate their ‘freewill’?

…or, u think, su creo que ‘they’ have NO freewill.

Every Zhedger for themself! Free reign. Eat or be eaten! What you don't steal, someone else will.

Viva El Luchador

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:58 | 3605662 TheEdelman
TheEdelman's picture

I was about to say the same thing as El Luchador, but he beat me to it again.  Si

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:51 | 3605781 noless
noless's picture

You are one of my few heroes sir, should i salute or bow?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 13:22 | 3607909 LuchadorChumba
LuchadorChumba's picture

Alto! Do not bow to a luchador, you will get hit in the face as you raise up.

Neither should you lave mis pies en el vino!

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:42 | 3606137 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Porque el mundo es un paraiso y nosotros somos turistas esclavos


Wed, 05/29/2013 - 13:19 | 3607899 LuchadorChumba
LuchadorChumba's picture

Es verdad. Esclavos who think they are free.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:46 | 3605630 candyman
candyman's picture

Watch out! Harvard grads on the loose, who left the fucking zoo door open!

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:18 | 3605718 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

Not all THAT much fucking if 72% enter as virgins  (REALLY!?!?!?  I mean REALLY?!?!?!   HARVARD?    I mean I'd understand if it were one of the top engineering schools but an IVY?)

And 27% don't have sex while there?   I suppose some haven't come to terms iwth being gay yet but the rest.......  what goes?        'Cause the workload isn't THAT heavy. 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 01:41 | 3606460 zhandax
zhandax's picture

Think about it, if you want to graduate the best liars, recruit the best liars.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:46 | 3605631 Tsunami Wave
Tsunami Wave's picture

The last fact of the article sent chills down my spine..

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:21 | 3605725 knukles
knukles's picture

Some really fucked up people.
At least most of my fraternity brothers had dated Lisafivefingers.


Fucking loosers.


Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:48 | 3605635 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

"27 percent graduate without having sex."

Shows you the true value of a Harvard education ... they graduate with a hundred thou or so in student loan debt and they think they still have their cherry.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:55 | 3605790 Troll Magnet
Troll Magnet's picture

well, nowadays a lot of harvard grads graduates with no debt because their parents are already loaded. meritocracy is dead. legacy is IN.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:57 | 3605981 bigtrade
bigtrade's picture

That or the fact that Harvard is 100% need blind. If you can't afford it they pay for it. And more than 35% of students are on that program. It's unreal how many idiots there are on ZeroHedge. It really makes me wonder why half of the people that comment here even bother to visit the blog. It's not like they can follow anything besides the dramatic posts that help the owners generate most of their $.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:21 | 3606066 Jr.
Jr.'s picture

Finished in '03 with about 10 grand in debt. No one finishes undergrad $100,000 in debt.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 03:09 | 3606513 Everything
Everything's picture

Eh. Parents could be loaded and not want to help their children.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 05:07 | 3606575 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

I know someone who racked up $140k in debt getting a sociology degree at Brown, and she was not alone in that distinction. 

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:53 | 3605649 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"The survey also questioned students about their sex lives, finding that 72 percent enroll at Harvard as virgins and 27 percent graduate without having sex. "

Well that explains it.

They're either liars or prudes...fully qualified for higher office and to advise those in higher office who know nothing.

All's well!!!...carry on!!!

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:08 | 3605680 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

they are saving it to fuck the taxpaying public.....

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:00 | 3605810 noless
noless's picture

Self reported stats on taboo subjects are bullshit, women predominantly downplay and men up play. The only real variable is which demographic they're looking to capture. So look at the status quo and understand that the individual statements are based either in (false)anti or for, still resulting and revolving around the same system, its like hot fake geek girls, they just want the technologists money while fucking the machismo, gender politics is totally relevant to this debate.

Whoever is on top monetarily will catch a bid sexually. And vice versa m/f.

Whoever wrote this article is mad baiting using unsterilised gender stats.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:13 | 3606031 Hulk
Hulk's picture

They're saving themselves for Randall Flagg...

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 19:59 | 3605664 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

     "Hunger Games 2" Harvard on the menu<

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:04 | 3605672 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

Sound like a bunch of future fuckups. How can so many not been laid before they turned 21?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:05 | 3605676 SolidSnake961
SolidSnake961's picture
  • The survey also questioned students about their sex lives, finding that 72 percent enroll at Harvard as virgins and 27 percent graduate without having sex.

This is irrelevant and doesn't mean anything without comparing it to other ivys or state schools. Is Tyler taking a jab at virgins?


Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:09 | 3605684 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I would wager the other Ivy Leaguers lie just as easily.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:13 | 3605702 lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

ivy leaguers lying is a pretty good place to start a successful career.  anybody seen jonnie corzine lately?  just to pick on one of them.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:48 | 3605774 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Then it becomes a true psychosis...they actually start believing each others lies...knowing them to be complete fabrications of reality.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:09 | 3605683 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

60k on a 250k+ investment.......  wow....

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:18 | 3605709 Cobra
Cobra's picture

Yup... And only 16% know what "Winning!" (Charlie Sheen voice) is like before they become successful. If it's on the internet, it's gotta be true...

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:04 | 3605822 noless
noless's picture

How relevant is the Oxford English dictionary anymore? Do you have one? What year was it printed?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:00 | 3605989 bigtrade
bigtrade's picture

Yeah well you trolls should look at the average net worth / salary 15 years after graduation. Then think again about posting your community college minded arithmetic on ROI of a Harvard degree.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:37 | 3606121 Bear
Bear's picture

You're right ... a Harvard degree gets you a job at GS or .gov, 15 years later you have screwed the sufficient number of people to get a golden ROI

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:11 | 3605694 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

what's the roi on 60,000 plus raises for the next 10 years capitalized on how much education expense - 50-75,000 usd per year for at least 4 years?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:56 | 3605799 Ballin D
Ballin D's picture

Thats assuming they wouldnt have a job at all without that Harvard degree. Youd have to look at the marginal gains (which would make it look even worse). The finance grads who found a job from the fuck-ass-nowhere state school that I went to start to the tune of 35-45K for a several grand a year in tuition.

~20k additional income per year for ~50K extra tuition per year.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:56 | 3605924 babylon15
babylon15's picture

I've calculated this, it's depressing.  The way to calculate ROI of a degree is to take the excess salary they get from having the degree minus the cost of the degree, annualized over a 40-year career.  And I used 30 years to pay back the loan because 10 years isn't possible.

The answer I came up with is about 3% real return on investment (the S&P 500 has returned about 6% real return over the last 100 years).  College used to have a higher ROI (between 10 to 30% in some cases) before tuition went through the roof.

Now, if you feel bad for college students, think about medical students.  $200k undergrad + $200k medical school = some are graduating with almost half a million dollars in student loans.  They make $40k-60k after medical school while they do their internships, residencies, and fellowships, while working 80 hours a week.  Then they make ~$200k per year but they work 60 hours a week on average for the rest of their life.  Once you add the costs of malpractice insurance and adjust for hours worked?  The ROI comes out to about 3% also.  If they go into family practice or pediatrics, the ROI can be negative.  If they become specialized surgeons, the malpractice insurance can wipe out any financial benefit of higher salary (it depends on the state - some states cap malpractice payouts, and these states have lower insurance expenses).

3 measly percent ROI for going to medical school.  I was one of the unfortunate, bright eyed bushy tailed pre-meds who graduated a virgin.  (This, in fact, was the reason I decided to not go to medical school).   I'd bet most medical students are still virgins by the time they finish medical school, and when they finally do have a relationship, they're so inexperienced and have so little emotional maturity that the smallest relationship problem can blow up to catastrophic proportions and derail their career.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:02 | 3605997 bigtrade
bigtrade's picture

How about actually WANTING to be a DOCTOR or to work in FINANCE or a LAWYER ? These ROI calculations make me sick and are exactly what's wrong with this country. 

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:30 | 3606097 babylon15
babylon15's picture

Economies aren't founded on generosity, they're founded on people agreeing to provide services and goods to each other at a fair rate.  3% is not fair for the sacrifices required of a doctor.


If you want generosity feel free to try your luck in any communsit or socialist country in the world right now.  I hear China and Greece are great places to live.

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 10:00 | 3609237 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

You nailed it.

Sadly 2 people think giving you a red-arrow will cure them of Sandy Vagina.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 02:06 | 3606478 Fake_nation
Fake_nation's picture

Gotta agree. If only people who wanted to work in law, finance, or medicine worked in law, finance, or medicine, we'd have a hell of a lot fewer lawyers, bankers, and doctors, and amen to that. Could you even imagine the ROI return to society at large? Lord knows doing what's practical or easy isn't the same thing as doing what creates the most value, though this is lost on the vulgar defenders of 'capitalism' who don't recognize the distortions built into the unfree system they unwittingly defend. 

And if that's not bad enough, Fake Feminism is still encouraging women to obey the same blind careerism:


Wed, 05/29/2013 - 06:20 | 3606619 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

For "really bad news" Professional liability costs - ObGyn must come top of the league, with Ophthalmology not very far behind. "Interesting" specialities (well, interesting to me) ALL had really high Insurance premia - all the fun, "high adrenaline" stuff like Interventional Cardiology / Cardiothoracic surgery, Neurosurgery,  - even Oncology!

Found that it was just as much fun (with less on-call headaches and lesser insurance costs) to settle in ID, before the "Current Troubles" started. Now ID is where all the action (and angst) is, with sod all antibiotics with any effect left for some of "our little friends"!!

Funny old World isn't it!!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 22:19 | 3609235 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

That's a very good calculation and it's best-case scenario.

For those getting lesser wages and / or no job for a large portion of that period, before inflation it's a dumb loss that's predictable (depending on the field, if only youth knew to research this BEFORE paying for school). With inflation it's even worse.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:12 | 3605698 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

World's Most Perfect University, bitchez!

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:20 | 3605723 pndr4495
pndr4495's picture

Doesn't a well stocked library have whatever books one might need to learn a given subject thoroughly?  Aren't those books free to read in the library's reading room? Cannot one write a research paper with independent study just as well as a student paying for a professor's time? Why should one have to pay an institution to issue a diploma  so that siad student can later say, " I am intelligent " ? Next to the house is an asset myth is the college education myth. 

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:59 | 3605806 WillBest
WillBest's picture

Credentials are important don't you know.  Actual knowledge is irrelevant

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:10 | 3605833 noless
noless's picture

Here! Here! I call this court to order! Only those with approved understandings, documented by i as the representative of the crown may present an argument. All others, with documentation to the contrary not approved by our majesty, leave this court at once, as ordained by the lord and his earthly representative our kind and just king.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:12 | 3605840 Midas
Midas's picture

If you want to get laid, go to college.

If you want an education, go to a library.


--F. Zappa

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:22 | 3606067 Bear
Bear's picture

If you want to get screwed, go to college

If you want to screw others, work for (insert name)


The Bear

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:55 | 3605792 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Can we have a contest of best nicknames given to the worst hookups you had in college? We used to give them nicknames. A bunch of my buddies went to SUNY Buffalo. Their top 3 names of their worst hookups were "The cum dumpster" "rotting pumpkin head" and "rotting popcorn head"

I am all ears if anyone has a good nickname.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:21 | 3605862 Cleveland Steamer
Cleveland Steamer's picture

I had some friends hook up with some quality names like "Snaggletooth" and "Hatchetface".

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:28 | 3605888 JuicedGamma
JuicedGamma's picture

A frat in Philly (I was NOT a member) had the "dog stairway", round the back.


Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:29 | 3605893 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

okay...we are warming up. I know there are some good ones out there.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:46 | 3605940 Jugdish
Jugdish's picture

My buddy took home a girl named 'Trainwreck.' She was known to usually/habitually leave bars in an ambulance.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:09 | 3606016 VelvetHog
VelvetHog's picture

How about:  "Your Mom"?  That was always my favorite.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 20:57 | 3605804 WillBest
WillBest's picture

$110k seems like a lot, but when you have $120,000 in debt and are living in NYC it doesn't go very far.

Midwest degree + midwest job = 3 times the purchasing power at 1/3rd the price.


Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:06 | 3605824 orez65
orez65's picture

How can such a prestigious university produce such scum bags as Obama and Bush???!!!!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:04 | 3607458 monad
monad's picture

On what credible source are you basing this assertion? So far neither puppet has ever performed above a 5th grade level. And thats with the best safety nets money can buy.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:19 | 3605855 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

I'm drunk and am currently thinking about around 2dz hot 20yo harvard gals bent over so I can lick their assholes.


Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:24 | 3605870 BlankfeinDiamond
BlankfeinDiamond's picture

You think the average Harvard graduate could find the glaring grammatical error in "Average Harvard Graduate will make $60,000 in their first job,..."?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:28 | 3605885 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

And whats that

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 23:28 | 3606266 Georgiabelle
Georgiabelle's picture

"Average Harvard Graduate" is singular, "Their" is plural. It should say "Average Harvard Graduate Will Make $60,000 In His or Her First Job". 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 07:52 | 3606772 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

What about the transgendered graduates?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:49 | 3605954 financial apoca...
financial apocalyptic contagion's picture

what a bunch of pussy faggots  

#cokemollylsddmtweedshrooms=deloitte doesnt drug test

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:51 | 3605961 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

Hubris mills...

When we all fall, they fall too...

while they could redefine and rearrange themselves, but then the stature goes,

and so goes their model...

They are in a pickle, but of course don't see it yet.

Maybe Summers will fix it all up.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:56 | 3605977 Hedgetard55
Hedgetard55's picture


Most wind up going to grad school.

60K is the average for those that actually find a job, or have to work. History and Lit major getting 60K? Nope, lucky if they get 30 (60 is an average, after all).

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 21:58 | 3605986 aka Gil
aka Gil's picture

If Harvard grads are so fucking great, how come they all end up working for Yale grads?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:13 | 3606030 Bear
Bear's picture

If Harvard grads are so fucking great, how come so many of them end up working for the government

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 22:14 | 3606038 bigtrade
bigtrade's picture

I'm starting to get really sick of ZH, simply beause of the commenters - most seem like apocalyptic minded community college graduates, that think they know what's going on or think that by reading a high level summary they actually understand things.


Here's the truth - 90% of Bulge Bracket / PE / HF / HFT / THINK TANK  WALL STREET went to a TOP 15 educational institution. I BET THAT 70% of ZH WRITERS WENT TO A TOP INSTITUTION.

90% of GOOD DOCTORS, LAWYERS, ENGINEERS (not mechanics or php script kiddies that make $120k a year running the ad platform for a website) RESEARCHERS went to a good institution.

Why the hell would ANYONE go to a lesser school when they could go to a good one ? Yes - some parents can afford it, but on the other hand, HARVARD, YALE and STANFORD are 100% NEED BLIND so here u go - the typical ZH commenter argument is invalid. ALSO - Legacies are only an extremely small percentage of admitted students every year.

WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE GO TO A SHITTY SCHOOL AND BE BITTER AND COMPLAIN ABOUT IVY LEAGUE PEOPLE HAVING BETTER JOBS AND SOCIAL STATUS AND "RIGGING THE GAME" WHEN THEY COULD HAVE GOTTEN INTO A TOP INSTITUTION ?  Why ? BECAUSE they're clearly not only not smart enough to get in, but not not even smart enough to realize the absurdity of their vocalization. 

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 23:07 | 3606177 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

Perhaps while singing the praises of the "top institutions" -- presumably those that push out leaders of all kinds and persuations (where else would they come from?) in their chosen field -- you could include the part that at least acknowledges the state of affairs, admits that it's broken, and suggest from where the next rendition of brilliant minds will come. 

You do not even consider it to be an issue.

But you do choose to concentrate on "shitty schools" and "social status" and "they're clearly not only not smart enough to get in."

You read like a book.
But you do not have a clue as to what I'm talking about.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 23:02 | 3606209 babylon15
babylon15's picture

See, the problem for you is that ZH commenters are smarter than you think.  Quantcast tracks statistics on what kind of people go to certain websites.  It's an industry standard for advertisers who want to reach a target demographic.

The typical ZeroHedge reader compared to the typical internet user:

1. Is twice as likely to have a *graduate* degree or higher.

2. Is twice as likely to make over $150k per year and 76% more likely to make $125-150k per year.

3. Is 30-50% more likely to be over the age of 35.

All of us are saying, don't go to an expensive school, because it's not worth it.  We did it.  We got in, and we went to these schools.  In fact, a lot of us went to these schools when they were much cheaper.  We are the ones telling other people that we have concluded it was not worth it.  We're trying to prevent the next generation of people from making the same mistakes we did.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 06:05 | 3606609 Acet
Acet's picture

Speak for yourself.

I did it (and got a diploma as an Electronics Engineer to show for it). Coming from a poor family, no less.

It was worth it (true, in Portugal at the time, it was about 100 euros per year).


It would've been worth it even at a much higher cost (it would've paid itself over many, many times by now).

That said, my degree is in Engineering, not Psychology, History, Literature, Arts or any of the ton of near-worthless paper courses out there (some of the worst paid people I know have Acting degrees).


More than half of the things I learned at University is worthless now, but two things stayed:

  1. I learned scientific principles, I learned to question the world and above all I learned how to learn - so even today, 20 years later, I can still figure out anything if I put my mind to it.
  2. A lot of the basic principles keep on applying. Things might change, technology might advance, but the basic reasons of why things work as they do and why they are put together the way they are never changes.


So I do recommend getting a degree, as long as it's in something that actually is useful and in an area where there is a lot of specialized well structure knowledge (and thus, it's possible and worth it to study it for 3-5 years under tutelage of those with knowledge in the field).

[so for example being an Historian is near worthless in real life except for a very small number of researchers, while Arts don't actually have structured knowledge (since nobody quite figured what makes great art great) so those that get a degree are not necessarily better than the self-taught ones (I know both kinds in the Acting world)]


Wed, 05/29/2013 - 06:39 | 3606638 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

In the "early 1970's" getting a science based Degree meant being taught how to think for yourself, and being expected to look elsewhere for information (i.e. if all you did was memorise Lecture and Tutorial notes, you WILL fail). So, successful gradates DID "think like Graduates", and had the independence of thought and confidence to not necessarily follow the herd, becoming leaders / innovators rather that followers / regurgitators.

Compare with today's grads. All seem to "think the same" and there's not much individuality / independent thought going on. Scary, since in Medicne - some of these MUST become the Consultants of tomorrow - most will at least reach Registrar / Adv. Trainee level (and mark my words - some of today's Registrars are scarily incompetent and/or lazy!)

Exception is the Chinese Medicine graduates (as in Medical Graduates (Western Medicine!)). ALL the ones I've worked with are VERY good, and VERY competent. We employ a few Chinese Registrars who easily out-perform "experienced" Aussie-trained Consultants. Competent, smart, and far more empathic that the Aussie equivalent.

Makes you think doesn't it!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 08:05 | 3606806 babylon15
babylon15's picture

100 euros per year = 128 dollars per year

$128 per year 20 years ago would be like $208 per year today.

Tuition at Harvard is almost 300 times more expensive than what you paid.  And the job market is completely different for engineers today than it was in 1992.  Outsourcing wasn't nearly as prevalent back then.

And finally, while going to college will obviously increase the chances of some people getting into high paying and interesting jobs - like yourself - the costs at $60,000 per year (which almost everyone has to pay) do not match the prospective rewards.  60% of the class at Harvard starts at $60k, and 40% is unemployed.  That averages out to a $36,000 average income for an average Harvard graduate that is $240,000 in debt.

I know many, many science and engineering graduates who couldn't get jobs after graduation so they went to graduate school, and still can't get jobs, or end up in $40k jobs like temporary teaching positions.  It's not just art history majors.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 02:47 | 3606470 Bear
Bear's picture

Simple ... Because all the top schools have an agenda to preach without teaching the important skill of critical thinking ... at these schools ideology trumps logic ... Where is Milton Friedman and von Mises proclaimed in the halls of these esteemed institutions and why are 90% of professors liberal. Why is there no diversity of thought ... clusterfucking is all the rage

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 05:50 | 3606599 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

Ted Kaczynski graduated from Harvard.  Things didn't quite work out for him.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:52 | 3607413 monad
monad's picture

This post is so stupid on its face that I can't believe you are a Harvard alumnus. Here to malign actual Harvard alumni? Or fishing?

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 23:32 | 3606200 Floodmaster
Floodmaster's picture

The new parasites of the financial sector will replace the old one, the goal is to not kill their hosts, to stay legitimate, to get this swamp more complicated than ever.

Tue, 05/28/2013 - 23:08 | 3606227 I should be working
I should be working's picture

If the survay says 27% graduate as virgins you can double it - the real number is 54%.

I don't know any guy who would admit to never getting laid in college.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 05:46 | 3606598 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

What's that on that Harvard logo thingy?  Veritas?  Latin for truth?  Guess their president (recently fired) and that mass of cheating students forgot to read it.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 08:51 | 3606969 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture


The survey also questioned students about their sex lives, finding that 72 percent enroll at Harvard as virgins and 27 percent graduate without having sex.

No wonder Larry Summers, Kenneth Rogoff, et. all act so ardently; they are getting back at all the cool people who wouldn't fuck them back in their 20's.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:02 | 3607012 esum
esum's picture

My son went to UNIVERSITY OF TAMPA, works with one of the big 4 as a financial consultant (CPA and passed level 1 CFA) and works with lots of Ivy as well as superior foreign university grads. He works animalistic hours and his firm only bills the client 8 hours/day (of couse I dont know at what rate), He plays hard and deserves every penny he earns. I think after a few years the cream rises to the top regardless of the diploma, but I do think the ivy school tie floats some a little higher... I grew up in the Bronx and had the great fortune to get a scholarship offered by a generous person named William V. Brokaw. He had several scholarships for poor kids at various prep schools. I attended Hotchkiss and probably enjoyed it more than 90% of the kids who attended. I was offered full scholastic scholarships to Princeton and Yale (actually got a letter from each asking whcih I as really interested in so they could utilize the aid) and opted to go elsewhere. Hotchkiss instructors all had PHd's. However only motivated students could or would take advantage and get the most out of the situation. I would assume that the Ivy's offer the same opportunity to motivated students. 

Sat, 06/01/2013 - 01:00 | 3616143 bdub2
bdub2's picture

university of taper. period. 

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