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The Green(back) Revolution: Why Tesla Is Just A Distraction

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Tesla has been outselling specific Mercedes, BMW and Audi models at similar price/quality points, and Consumer Reports has given the car glowing reviews. Is there a broader meaning in this, other than the introduction of a very well-designed luxury automobile? JPMorgan's Michael Cembalest's suggests that the Tesla’s price and its fossil fuel footprint suggest that it’s a distraction regarding the issue of transportation and related environmental efficiencies.

 

Via JPMorgan's Michael Cembalest,

The Tesla Solution

 

[Vaclac Smil and] I pulled together some charts to illustrate both of his points.

 

 

 

Note that Tesla prices are net of the $7,500 credit that buyers receive, and after Tesla benefits from ZEV/GHG credits paid to it by its competitors. In the 2nd chart, you can see that the current fossil fuel footprint of the Tesla is not much different than the Honda Civic. It’s also higher than the Civic Hybrid, a car that gets all of its electricity through regenerative braking rather from than the electricity grid.

 

Currently, the "zero-emissions" Tesla Model S generates a fossil fuel footprint that is not much different than the Honda Civic. There are scenarios in which the Tesla's imprint could be lower, but they are all in the future

An explanation of the scenario analysis in the second chart:

  • 0. Tesla, Current: see table on next page for the energy math.
  • 1. Vamp: Tesla figures out how to reduce the vampire (standby) electricity loss by 80%, an issue in the car’s software which some users report as draining ~3.5 kWh per day from the battery when the car is idle
  • 2. C->NG: Within fossil fuels, the split between coal and natural gas, which is currently 63/37, falls to 50/50 as older coal plants continue to be shut down and more natural gas plants are built
  • 3. Foss: Fossil fuels fall from their current 67% share of US electricity generation to 60%. This sounds like a small change, but they have ranged from 65% to 72% for the last 30 years in the US. For an even larger decline on a national level, more nuclear and/or a break-through on battery storage of intermittent renewable energy would probably be needed
  • 4. Therm: Thermal efficiency of coal and gas plants rise closer to theoretical maximums. However, on coal, emissions standards and greater coal plant cycling impose parasitic loads that may make theoretical maximums hard to reach.
  • 5. Assume that 1, 2 and 3 take place simultaneously
  • 6. Assume that 1, 2 and 3 take place simultaneously, and that the Tesla is used just in low-fossil fuel states

A colleague of mine here at J.P. Morgan believes that Tesla’s long-range plan is to provide proof of concept at the luxury end of the market, and then eventually commoditize the concept at lower price points. If that’s what happens, and if the electricity “ifs” shown above take place, then Tesla would merit the attention they’re getting for current annual production of 20,000 units on a base of 15 million U.S. cars sold each year.

 

Otherwise, what we may be witnessing is simply a green revolution where green represents the buying power of the Tesla’s wealthy driver rather than a substantial environmental benefit.

 

The broader point is that the oft-promised rose garden of substantially lower environmental footprints from electric vehicles may be decades away from blooming, at least in the US. In the meantime, modest improvements in the internal combustion engine, changes in driving patterns and a move away from heavier, low-mpg cars could get to a similar place.

 

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Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:27 | 3607084 Mercury
Mercury's picture

...or just

#5 Assume that neither Tesla or anyone else will circumvent the laws of thermodynamics.

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2013/05/bringing-skepticism-and-math-to-electric-vehicle-fuel-numbers.html

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:27 | 3607095 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Yea, but that deals exclusively with closed systems and Bernank's system is all open ended and based upon Alchemy.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:35 | 3607120 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Tesla and financials don't mix...he would probably just laugh at all that bulshit as he worked on patent/invention #XXXX for the goodness of the world...

.

not the money.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:02 | 3607220 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

If I hear the term 'fossil fuel friendly' one more time I'm going to have an aneurysm...

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:32 | 3607344 tango
tango's picture

I can't believe we agree on something!  Also add "going green" (an automatic dismissal),  anthing ending with "gate", "carbon footprint" the "N" word, "Hollywood marriage" and "dude/bro/mAM, home boy - hommie"

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 13:13 | 3607881 redpill
redpill's picture

People who want to make an environmental statement buy a Leaf or a Prius.  People buy Teslas because they are very good cars in their own right.  And why would you compare a $60k-$100k luxury car to a Civic Hybrid?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 15:43 | 3608357 tango
tango's picture

You replied to me but I think you meant it for someone else.  I did no comparisons and in fact we drive 3 Hondas (2 Accords, 1 Civic).  I do realize that technology is rapidly changing the transportation industry and what we have in 10 years may not resemble what we think in the least. 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:36 | 3607356 InTheLandOfTheBlind
InTheLandOfTheBlind's picture

fossil fuel is enough of news double speak for me

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:37 | 3607358 InTheLandOfTheBlind
InTheLandOfTheBlind's picture

or technologies that as he stated "can rip the world in half".... 

 

are you of the camp that he sabotaged his own works when he realized how nazified us had become?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:36 | 3607122 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Elon Musk, From a greener earth to mars and (not) back, flying dragons and everythign in between.

Theman, the company, the shit piece of technology they are selling to the rich green fool... all one giant scam.

Oh, that he is a jew is just co inky dink.

Pay me pal, just pay me.

ori

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:38 | 3607353 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Nice to see you around ORI... your comment is copesetic with the one I was working pon here... so I think I'll slide it in right here... I believe I remember you mentioning you were a rider too at some point!

The title of this piece is ironically accurate in a manner that for once places the implicit ironicism of the typical ZH play pon words firmly where it belongs...

in fact, thanks to the astonishing duplicity of attempts such as this one to utilize the jargon suitable to the task of inducing a  'green-gullible' goydom... to dissipate it's remaining wealth\resources upon the most inefficient, bankrupting, and self-destructive media-manipulated marketing scams, we can indeed identify just whom the modern day equivalents of the famed "Luddites" might be!

You have to luv that it takes an employee of the Morgue to deliver the goods on this 'distraction' from the really real... only a member of the pillaging classes could be entrusted with defining the [un]real cost of the goods n services which the masters of the universe proffer as the sole solution to the challenge of 'stayin alive' in the C21st... mo better ways to inflict taxation... subsidies... centralization .. and loss of local control onto a population already sufficiently cowered as to be unable to get to and from their nighttime nests wherein they recoup the energies necessary to return to their wage slave stations except via the utmostly 'modern'\costly means of idiotically in-efficient type of [social]capital-destructive conveyance....

meanwhiles...  down on what remains of  ...the farm... we find the truest measure of energy efficiencies takes the form of those formerly beloved four-legged friends - who tirelessly transform the photosynthetic bounties which the creator\source has blessed us with... into joules and other measurments of power plasticitiy ... with a seamless enthusiasm and reliability... which because it adds naught to the coffers of the kosher kleptocractic klans... is scorned and laughed at as being stone age technology...

yet

The horse has a long working life during which 1/3 of the energy it consumes as food is reusable as manure whereas 2/3 of the fuel energy used by a tractor is lost as heat and exhaust fumes...

and instead of devoting endless acres of productive land to producing un-economic(and tax subsidized) 'bio-fuels'... were one to power the transport pool with the low-input, low cost forage crops which make the most cost-efficient energy useage of said lands... well... who really cares as long as we can go over to middle eastern locales and pilfer petro-products from the sand niggers, right! After all... in return for their oil... we bring them democracy n stuff!

No need to mention that all this smoke n mirrors about 'green' cars is based upon the same ol nuclear... and\or fracking sources of 'green' energy as the socialist in chief loves to give out tax credits on scams to his wall street buddies for.

Since there are no sources of data for comparable costs of 'automotive' vs horse consumer conveyances, all we can use in reference is the farm-based comparisons for now. But at the end of the day... the costs of runnin around in your little(gps tracking-mandated) state-licensed slave-mobile will be much higher than any mere spreadsheet analysis by the usual suspects can convey...

there's a reason that our forebears rode around ... with their firearms... and without need of ID's of any kind... it was a kind of package deal..."law enforcement" was the domain of the citizen... instead of the bureaucrat.

Get yourselves back to the real green shoots... guns...gold... and two fresh mounts... no credit cards needed for the next trip which you plan to take back to the future!

http://grist.org/sustainable-farming/2011-12-06-small-farmers-crave-hors...

http://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/farming-with-h...

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:44 | 3607376 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

I have a killer hybrid, it gets great mileage, and it generates other awesome benefits. It's called a bike, and America needs to start adapting to allow more of them. Bikes are a killer option, as they burn fat, which we have in spades....

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:38 | 3608156 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

It also leads to drugs addiction which is typical and well sought by 'americans'

See Lance "where is the syringe?" Armstrong's story.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 15:14 | 3608268 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Pull finger. 

Release all energy into Dutch O-van.

Inhale deeply to get all cHink gas into ziphead.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 16:44 | 3608500 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

AnAnonymous rehypocriticated:

It also leads to drugs addiction which is typical and well sought by 'americans'

See Lance "where is the syringe?" Armstrong's story.

Very telling this guy and his drugged addictations drivel when considering his injection point of extremic propagations is neighbohourood Peoples Liberation Opium Parlour availings of wifi hotspot incessantly.

Even best, guy is Chinese citizenism Lance Armstrong equivalent in backpedaling.

Wok calling the cooking marmit black.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:19 | 3607509 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Nicely said Joyful.

Horses.... man's true best friend, no doubt.

ori

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 15:04 | 3608234 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Not if you have to pick up the horse shit that would be created to transport America's 300 million or so. It would be a boon for alfalfa farmers though.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:37 | 3607116 SamAdams
SamAdams's picture

You mean the laws of the EPA which is driven by certain US oil capitalists?  It is proven every day in other countries, a diesel motor can achieve better fuel efficiency than a hybrid.  I personally wrote Subaru to ask why the Forester is not available in the US with a diesel.  They told me the CEO had been trying to get it approved, but kept getting shut out by the EPA.  However, some VW's are allowed to enter?  Politics and greed are the law, not thermodynamics.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:50 | 3607162 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

I drive a '11 Jetta diesel rated at 42/30 mpg and so far it's been fine.  Good car.

Weird thing, I look at theses "Ten Best Mileage Car" lists and even though the VW diesel is highest mpg they don't put it on the list!  Corporate press, corporate agenda.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:02 | 3607222 ACjourneyman
ACjourneyman's picture

I have a 2012 jetta and just got 46 for an average on the last trip.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:47 | 3607610 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

Convert them to run on waste veg oil! Get greasy!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:41 | 3608144 SamAdams
SamAdams's picture

50mpg avg from a Honda diesel 4X4 SUV?  Isn't that better than the Honda Insight hybrid? 

http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/honda/cr-v-4x4/2-2-i-dtec-se-5dr/summary/66242

Not coming to a state near you! 

BTW, my better half drives a 2WD Honda 2.2L CR-V.  It averages 24 mpg..... :-)

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:01 | 3607216 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

Diesels are not common in the U.S. because diesel is more expensive than gasoline, quite a lot more. In Europe and Asia, diesel is cheaper than gasoline, although granted diesel is also subsidized/less taxed as compared to gasoline (at least in Europe).

Ignoring subsidies for the moment though, the fundamental reason for this difference between the US and the ROW is that our refining system here was built to fuel a gasoline economy. It's built to produce gasoline, not diesel. Diesel is essentially a by-product. Hence, the automobile market follows suit.

European and Asian refineries are built to churn out diesel and don't produce much gasoline.

It doesn't change because building new or modifying existing refineries is very, very expensive.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:16 | 3607289 Straw Dog
Straw Dog's picture

But the whole of the trucking industry uses dieel, that's a huge diesel market. Cars use the same diesel as trucks, supply of diesel should not be a problem.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:25 | 3607322 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

In my area diesel now costs same as regular gas though it was more for several years.

Can't use truck diesel.  It's called '#2 diesel' w/lower sulphur content.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:17 | 3607705 Sale Away Soon
Sale Away Soon's picture

For accuracy’s sake, diesel is a lot more costly in the UK, and much of Europe, than petrol (gasoline ;)), currently £1.39 against £1.32 per litre here in the south of England.  That said, my BMW 640d returns an average 32 mpg, will hit 60 mph in around 6 seconds and gets electronically reined in at something short of 160 mph.  What’s not to like??

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:20 | 3607717 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

Speedometer on Jetta goes to 160, but tires rated 130mph so goes soft around 115.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 13:18 | 3607892 SamAdams
SamAdams's picture

Sounds great, except you can't buy one in the States.

I think the price comments fail to realize:  $ increase < mpg increase

A 5% increase per gallon for diesel over gasoline, can increase mpg 20+% as a result of higher compression & energy density.  

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:37 | 3607765 malek
malek's picture

Nonsense.

Diesels are not common in the US, first because low-sulfur Diesel (required for modern direct injection diesels) was introduced only a few years ago in the US - many years later than in Europe. (And only that needed modifying refineries.)

And secondly because some emission limits tailored to gasoline catalytic converter engines make it extremely difficult (and even impossible without using low-sulfur Diesel) to comply with for Diesel engines - that's mainly originating in the state of California.

However I've learned you are free to buy a used Diesel in a state with less strict emission limits (unless your desired car maker doesn't even import Diesel models at all) and register it in California.
If you prefer a new car, try to find a dealer which does a one week registration in another state and then sell it to you (OK, you may need to pay sales tax twice then).

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 15:07 | 3608241 piceridu
piceridu's picture

Diesal is a dirty word in California and has a negative conotation...if you live in So Cal, especially in the coast cities, watch the faces change on the tofu crowd when you tell them you drive a diesal car.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:00 | 3607205 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/ecotech-myths.html

Quote:

The 2010 Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV have exactly the same range as the 1908 Fritchle Model A Victoria: 100 miles (160 kilometres) on a single charge

From here: http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/05/the-status-quo-of-electric-cars-b...

Anyway... so high tech but they can't even come up with an hardware switch (or a zero loss soft switch), for the price?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:35 | 3607354 tango
tango's picture

We forget that almost all new technologies do not arrive neatly packaged, error-free and bright and shiny.   They start out rough, get better, improve, etc, until they become such a part of the fabric of reality that we don't notice them anymore.   TESLA can be viewed as simply another step on the path to sustainability - a tiny step but an important one. 

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 13:48 | 3610961 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

100 years is hardly new technology... check this link to see why electric cars never went anywhere.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:24 | 3607320 daxtonbrown
daxtonbrown's picture

If you are paying close to $100k for a car, that extra money required economic activity whose waste stream I highly doubt is counted towards the car emissions.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:47 | 3607391 HowardBeale
HowardBeale's picture

If you're a friend of Bernanke's, that economic activity wasn't much: control-P

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:50 | 3607405 DogOfSinope
DogOfSinope's picture

The fact that this report comes from JPM is reason enough to conclude that the thruth is exactly the opposite. I'm ordering the Modes S catalog now!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:07 | 3607471 Svendblaaskaeg
Wed, 05/29/2013 - 11:37 | 3607557 MacGruber
MacGruber's picture

Pretty weak analysis.

  •  Last time I checked hardly anyone drives a Civic sized vehicle, a car that is about half to a third average curb weight to most vehicles.
  • Tesla performance is not even the same league as a Civic, the S Model is comparable in performance to a 335xi or S4, the sports car was faster off the line than a Porsche 911
  • The comparision relies upon our shitty electric grid. The raw efficiency of the vehicle itself is far better than a internal combustion engine. Internal combustion performance is 20-40% efficient, after losses in the transmission you are looking at about 10% efficiency at the wheels. Electric motors are 60-80% efficient and in future models there likely won't be a transmission.

These are the same bullshit arguements that are put forth as to why CAFE standards could never be changed, the technology will never be there, this is all a pipe dream. We're forever doomed to burn gasoline at 20mpg, so just give up was the tale. Tesla may seem like a distraction now, but they are pushing the performance envelope of the technology to get engagement. Electric cars are the future, and if the U.S. continues to put its head in the sand it will be yet another lost industry that we won't play in.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 13:14 | 3607888 Matt
Matt's picture

Electricity is not a source of energy. You cannot compare the efficiency of electricity to gasoline, without including the step where you harness energy from a source, turn it into electricity, then use that electricity to charge a battery; all stages with losses.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:44 | 3608168 MacGruber
MacGruber's picture

Electricity is not a source, agreed. All I was saying is this is an apples to oranges comparison, you can't compare the delivery of the energy, either as electrons or liquid fuel, in one case and not in the other.

If they want to include the cost/impact of eletricity generation and transmission then to make the analysis valid you have to include all the losses involved in refining and transporting the gas - we'll exclude discovery and extraction for both since coal has to be found and extracted for electricity the same as oil does for gas. 

I can tell you that refining and transporting gas isn't the cheapest, cleanest, energy conserving process on the planet. Boiling the crude in a refinery is by itself a hugely wasteful process. There are no free lunches either way.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 20:38 | 3608991 Matt
Matt's picture

However, the power plant is likely burning coal, oil or natural gas too, so these extraction, refining and transportation steps exist for both electricity and gasoline. The electricity simply adds another set of steps to the process. 

Even if the power comes from hydro, nuclear, wind or solar, a great deal of consumption of oil, gas or coal was involved in making the equipment to harvest energy.

Whatever the losses involved in gasoline are, the losses involved in electricty are all of those, PLUS the losses of turning energy into electricty, usually transporting it, then storing it and releasing it. 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:25 | 3607086 duo
duo's picture

I hate to break this, but A/C uses 700-1200W whether you're moving or not.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:28 | 3607091 new game
new game's picture

well, looky at me, I'm saving the earth!

if you give one shit about it all, pedal your fat a$$ to the club...

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 13:54 | 3607213 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Ride an horse - bikes aren't anywhere near as ecological...

ps: from the downvoting of an undisputable truth, it's obvious assholes are aplenty here on ZH - oh, and I ride a bycicle, btw... (aluminium frame - you know how much energy -and clean water- it takes to produce it?)

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:27 | 3607096 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

I'm sorry, but this is just plain stupid. The article reads as if sponsored by big oil.

Tesla specialize in high-end vehicles, but even so, modern gas vehicles did not get their efficiency overnight. This round of EVs are on the back of design which relatively speaking is still in its cradle.

Furthermore, as he said - vehicle count increases, scale of manufacturing dictates that price will come down.

 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:30 | 3607105 new game
new game's picture

anything with gov subsidy is plain and simple fukked up!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:32 | 3607114 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

I'm not arguing whether government distorts the market, it obviously does. I'm simply pointing out that using the high-end segment of a quickly developing market, and using it as the basis of your argument frankly comes across ever so slightly biased.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:40 | 3607135 new game
new game's picture

interesting take; hmmm, well, i made a shit ton on ethanol, then china rev merg lith ion and now high end elec cars??? maybe...

but the fade will set in when, of course, the economics is realized, unless oil goes to 200, which in turn would be a boom for the rich because they will have the money to buy one these.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:49 | 3607159 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Though I want one - That Tesla is one georgeous car - I DO have a Volt, charge it with solar panels, and for whatever reason, nope, the Volt doesn't discharge its battery when idle in the driveway, unless it's very hot (over 100) or very cold (under 25f).  And that, only a little bit.  It uses 300w to "idle" in traffice, roughly.  In the Volt, the AC doesn't materially reduce the battery range - perhaps a couple miles.  The heater, though, is a total bitch - works out to about 8hp worth of drain, so I preheat the car before I leave home.

While my Volt only gets around 40-50 miles on a charge, heck, that's what the gasoline engine is for - long distances, instant refill, and it can be programmed to keep charge in the battery so you can run electric at the other end of the trip - which is far nicer in cities.

I thought Tesla had fixed that "runs down the battery while parked in a rich collectors garage" thing awhile back - the article is disingenuous on more than one level.  All new cars have teething issues, and nearly all new car companies (and some established ones) fail - yet somehow, Tesla just paid back all the fed loans what, 9 years early?

Elon has stated from the get-go that no, there's not a shortage of sports cars for rich people, and the current models aren't his goal, but stepping stones to get to the point he can build cars that are more affordable for the masses.  I really enjoyed his interview with Charlie Rose and Bob Lutz (who is the designer of the Viper, the later Corvettes, and the king of too much horsepower and too much gas consumption, while being an AGW denier) - they played well off one another, and Bob admitted admiration for Musk and gave him credit for pushing GM into making better cars, no kidding - and if you know Lutz, that was quite a statement.

Long but worth watching.  Sorry for all you GM haters out there, I know some of you have a reason beyond getting burned on the bankruptcy.  And it's on you if you hate me for shorting GM into bankruptcy enough to buy a Camaro, which I traded for my Volt.  If you don't get the freebies - you're just dumb, you're paying anyway...

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11984

 

 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:36 | 3607111 Mercury
Mercury's picture

It will stay in the cradle too (and with any luck be strangled there as well).

Dust-to-dust the Ford F-150 (for years one of the if not the single best selling vehicle in America) has a smaller environmental footprint than the Prius.

There are actually physical limits to how little energy you can expend to get several thousand pounds of mass to move at 60 mph. and you can’t make water flow uphill.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:38 | 3607128 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

The Argonne National Laboratory ran a side-by-side comparison of hybrid and conventional vehicles over their entire life cycle, which includes vehicle production, vehicle operation and the energy required to produce fuel for both cars. If you assume that both vehicles travel 160,000 miles (257,495 kilometers) over their lifetime, the conventional vehicle requires 6,500 Btu of energy per mile compared to 4,200 Btu per mile for a hybrid. That higher energy input results in far greater lifetime greenhouse gas emissions for conventional vehicles compared to hybrids, more than 1.1 pounds (500 grams) per mile compared to 0.75 pounds (340 grams) per mile [source: Burnham et al].

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/does-hybrid-car-production-waste-offset-hybrid-benefits2.htm

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:56 | 3607170 Mercury
Mercury's picture

So, in this US DOE report, the entire energy and environmental impact of building, operating and disposing of a Prius (for instance) is limited to how much CO2 the process throws off? Cute.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:07 | 3607243 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Yeah - I'd like to know the impact of manufacturing and recycling/disposing off those battery packs.. because we know how much it costs replacing them on the original Tesla: 40k - friends price...

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:23 | 3607315 Mercury
Mercury's picture

I'd be willing to bet that section 6 of that DOE report is pretty liberal about where they draw the line on "vehicle assembly" (as opposed to component parts production?) too.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:56 | 3607397 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

The report in question includes construction and operation. I very much doubt disposal will close the gap the order of magnitude you seem to suggest - especially not, since that isn't free for conventional vehicles either - but so far I have seen no hard numbers in your argument, just speculation and rhetoric.

And, no - if you actually read the report, you'll see CO2 is one part measured. It also measures CH4, N20, PM10, SOx, VOC, NOx and CO emissions.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 13:22 | 3607910 Mercury
Mercury's picture

There is a lot of "can" in that report as in: if recycled/lightweight materials are used instead of other materials all-in costs CAN come down.  That's not the same thing as "is" or "does" in regard to current hybrid models on the road.

Energy, mass and efficiency are pretty much the three big moving parts here.  So yes (and no news flash here) making a vehicle smaller with less cargo space and lighter (usually more expensive) will reduce the amount of energy needed to make the thing go 60mph. But reducing the mass also makes it less safe for the driver and passengers. Under certain sets of conditions it is possible to operate an electric/gas car more cheaply (variously defined) than a gas only car but there is no getting something for nothing.  It's all about trade-offs. Getting outside of those trade-offs would involve getting outside the laws of thermodynamics and that hasn’t happened, at least not in the context of vehicle transportation.

If you want max efficiency, outlaw cars and make everything/one travel by rail. If you want everyone to have a car but are concerned about pollution put everyone in nat gas powered go-carts. If you want minimal greenhouse gasses put everyone in all-electric cars that charge off a nuclear powered grid.  But if you want max versatility and reliability you will never do better than an oil/gas powered IC engine because there is no other fuel substance on Earth that contains as much potential energy in as small a space.

Pick your poison but replacing everyone’s car with a hybrid will make everything more expensive and less versatile forever, especially when someone else gets to decide what “green” is and how/why it is always a virtue.

 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:37 | 3607124 Doña K
Doña K's picture

I have a large lot next to the highway that nobody wants to buy ot build on. Maybe...just maybe, many years from now the noise may not be there and a few millions will materialize on my 30k investment.

Viva Tesla

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 14:20 | 3611067 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

One problem with electrical vehicles is precisely the lack of (engine) noise (reason why they're considering artificially adding it to them), but for most part running noise comes from the tires, cooling (incl. AC) and air displacement (trucks), so it won't go away that easily.

Road noise problems are solved with noise barriers.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:43 | 3607143 new game
new game's picture

surveyed toy pre owners said " i bot it for the image " .

think that says it all...

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:02 | 3607223 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Electrical vehicles exist for as long as cars themselves - check my link above...

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:29 | 3607101 sleepyguy007
sleepyguy007's picture

i see the model S all the time in west LA.  and its more about being seen in a car no one has yet and being rich.  in LA and silicon valley its all about looking like you are different and on the cutting edge.   sure there is that tiny bit of green credibility but i bet their sales start to fall once the "people who need to be seen" get theirs and its not as exclusive anymore.

the model S is basically a really nice nissan leaf with 4 times the batteries in it for 4 times the cost.   if it were about being green the leaf / fiat 500e honda fit EV would sell far better.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:30 | 3607103 Phroneo
Phroneo's picture

Thigns are going to Tesla's plan. First they made the Roadster to show people that an electric car could be sporty and sexy. Then they introduced a luxury car to get good sales and build up some capital. Next they plan to release a cheaper consumer grade car which should sell a lot more. I watched a documentary about them and they have heaps of floorspace ready to setup the new production line on. 

 

I really don't think there is much to critisize. When is the last time a new car company has actually succeeded? most of them are around 100 years old!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:41 | 3607139 Catullus
Catullus's picture

Subsidized success. I get to pay for one whether I drive one or not.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:44 | 3607784 malek
malek's picture

 Next they plan to release a cheaper consumer grade car which should sell a lot more.

...plan... could...

Yeah, some prodigy will solve all cost and reliability problems in a heartbeat, on demand.
And the electricity to power those fleet of cheaper consumer grade Teslas will magically be produced with low to zero emissions somehow by someone else.
Did you even read the article?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:30 | 3607104 monopoly
monopoly's picture

Tesla is absurd. Pay 90,000 for a car that does nothing different. A lot of hype. But there is always the 10% who can buy what they want, no matter how bad our depression gets.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:30 | 3607106 El Tuco
El Tuco's picture

Interesting article on how we would all save money if Tesla stopped making cars..

 

If Tesla Would Stop Selling Cars, We’d All Save Some Money

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/tesla-would-stop-selling-car...

 

 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:58 | 3607198 EatYourCornTake...
EatYourCornTakeyourPill's picture

I hate hearing this: "the taxpayer pays this, the taxpayer pays that" the truth is the taxpayer doesn't fund shit anymore. It's all debt based, and cutting this minor EV support won't cut the deficit at all. They should just give these EV's out for free, paid for by money printed.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 13:35 | 3607795 Floodmaster
Floodmaster's picture

Americans are brainwashed to love oil

cato.org >>>-Long-time polluter apologist Pat Michaels admitted that “40 percent” of his funding comes from the oil industry.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:30 | 3607107 doggis
doggis's picture

correct - he said it all - TOO MUCH MONEY PRINTING - TOO MUCH EASY MONEY FLOATING AROUND. TESLA IS A MIRROR FOR THIS!

MARC FABER ALWAYS SAYS - WHEN HE SEES TO MANY EXPENSIVE CARS AT RESTAURANTS - ITS TIME FOR A MARKET CRASH!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:32 | 3607113 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Tesla is just a feel good story. Pump up the stock price so the fast money meatheads can parade around the studio draped in American flags and "win the future" pins. They can talk endlessly about the rotation into consumer discretionary items only to be rudely interrupted by somone screaming "AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE CASH ON THE SIDELINES COMES POURING IN!!!"

Finally someone will try to calm down the euphoria but it is just so difficult to quell that kind of true, natural, exuberance. You just can't help but get caught up in it all.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:32 | 3607115 hero HNL
hero HNL's picture

The ceo of tesla was my college classmate.

 

When he went to college, I asked him if he was interested in making an

econ car. They save more money for the consumer but I never got any answer from him.

 

I guess he was more interested in fatter profits of large cash cows.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:34 | 3607117 Catullus
Catullus's picture

The flaw about this analysis is that the EVs are not enough load to marginally effect the dispatch of power plants. Say there are 1 million of these things plugged in at the same time, what's the demand? 200 MW, maybe? And those million Tesla's aren't concentrated in one area. They're all over the country. Your kids getting home 3:30 from school and turning on every TV in the house while eating hot pockets is a bigger load increase.

So you could claim that the source of the power is allocated out to the marginal KWH, but then why not do that for the oil refining business as well?

Garbage thinking

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:42 | 3607141 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Oh, you're absolutely right, and the grid can't possibly support everyone using EVs. AFAIK, the grid can carry about 12% of our total energy needs.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:35 | 3607121 hero HNL
hero HNL's picture

I just bought a Prius for about $30K in Japan & been saving so

much money on gas.

 

I get about 70mpg.....that's Japanese road, not US. I know people who get 80mpg.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:46 | 3607144 Mercury
Mercury's picture

 

 

1. Who's paying the difference between $30k and the actual all-in cost to build/sell a Prius?

2. How long will the Prius continue to deliver those kinds of numbers - or is there something inherently different between a Prius Battery and every other battery I've ever used/owned?

3. Do you know what the ethanol content (another "green" scam) of Japanese gas is vs. US?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:37 | 3607125 Freewheelin Franklin
Freewheelin Franklin's picture

The Tesla Bubble.

 

 

I've been waiting to say that.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:42 | 3607142 EatYourCornTake...
EatYourCornTakeyourPill's picture

So let me see. Written by Scumbags telling us how Tesla is a piece of shit. Interesting, reminds me of MSM and Ron Paul. I guess I'll stay neutral on Tesla until I learn the facts.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:47 | 3607796 malek
malek's picture

By all means, go and buy one! Should be no problem to get a government sponsored car loan if necessary.

Don't bother with arguments.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:45 | 3607150 youngman
youngman's picture

Alls i know is that these cars are going to be low milege cars..they are not the only car in the garage...but the 5 or 8th car in the garage...a souviner so to speak...not a housewifes take the kids to school or to Grandmas for Christmas car......its a green toy..that is all

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:57 | 3607191 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

For now, the Volt is a hell of a lot more practical, cheaper, and with a gas backup, more versatile.  It's my only car, I ditched the rest as soon as it became obvous it could.  I get 182 mpg in my driving regime, averaged since oct 2011.  I charge it off solar, I'm completely off-grid, so the issues with the grid are no worries here - my neigbors come to watch TV and put their food in my freezer when the grid regularly goes down here in the mountains (more or less, every time the wind blows hard).

My friends who own prius cars have driven my Volt and now want one.  By comparison, we're talking a cheap, noisy, low performance pos in the Jap car.  Sure, prius gets decent mileage, but at a real cost, as has been pointed out above - it takes so much energy to push X weight up Y hill, and the way they went with the design is to cut that by cutting weight - more dangerous in a crash, noisier, and less lattitude to distribute the weight for good handling.  Just do an honest test drive compare, it's obvious as my friends discovered.

Don't think that because *you* live in a certain world with certain assumptions, that everyone does - that's a bad bias to have, it won't serve you well in the long run.

 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 13:40 | 3607950 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

At only $25K Prius is more than 50% cheaper than your overpriced state-sponsored Obamacar.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 15:55 | 3608393 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

You used the right word, the same word my friends used after driving the Volt - the prius is "cheap".

Yup, you get what ya pay for....

FWIW, you're showing your ignorance.  It was during the Bush admin that the Volt was designed and brought to market - and the subsidies laid out.

As far as I'm concerned, fuck them both - they weren't presidents - they are used car salesmen/game show hosts.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:50 | 3607166 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Tesla is perfect example of why EVs will never be widespread. They are simply too expensive to manufacture for mass consumption. Too bad because there will be a lot of people pining for an EV when gas prices eventually hit $10.00 a gallon (in todays dollars)....

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:01 | 3608018 Matt
Matt's picture

Real hybrid vehicle: pedal-electric velomobile. 25 MPH average across variable terrain, and >3000 MPG using Gallon Gasoline Equivelent. Imagine a low-energy future where everyone is in good shape.

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2012/10/electric-velomobiles.html

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:52 | 3607171 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

See lots of the Tesla's on my commute in SV. Nice styling....but 0 emissions??? Only if you have a hydro electric source for the charging....last time I checked, PG&E was still primarily using fossil fuels at their gen plants...plus one needs to factor in all the energy losses happening between that plant and the final power going to the wheels...not too efficient.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:00 | 3607210 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Yes, one does need to factor in the losses.  An electric plant, at least a modern one, hits low 40s% efficiency from theoretical btus in the fuel to electricity.  Most cars have trouble reaching 30% (even the beter new ones) at the BSFC peak, which isn't the normal driving regime (eg BFSC usually happens at the torque peak with wide open throttle in an IC engine).  More likely they get 20's percent.  And it's zero when idling at a stoplight, where most electrics and hybrids draw zero power by comparison.

It's a win.  Use real "realized end to end" numbers, don't just say vague stuff and assume.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:43 | 3607373 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

....you failed to mention all the line losses from the power plant.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:48 | 3607805 malek
malek's picture

Plus the storage losses if the energy isn't produced exactly when needed.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 15:57 | 3608397 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

3% is considered the norm in the business for line losses.

 

It's closer to 1% in my off-grid solar system that I actually use to charge the car.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:04 | 3607676 Catullus
Catullus's picture

But it's not like coal plant started up because you plugged your car in. You're not marginally adding any emissions than would have otherwise have been produced had you not driven to work. It is zero marginal emission.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 09:56 | 3607186 Biggieshort
Biggieshort's picture

"Flavor of the Month"....nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:00 | 3607190 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

Every red penny of money made to produce any kind of battery only locomotion (be it car, plane, train, etc...) is completely wasted until battery technology has made a quantum leap from what it is now.

All the 100's of billions of dollars spent producing green transportion should have been dumped into applied chemical engineering and applied materials engineering concerning battery tech.  And even then...in order for the battery and drivetrain to adequately and without too much waste transmit that power to move the vehicle you have to make the car even lighter but stronger which calls for increases in materials tech in order to mass produce cheaply carbon fiber bodies for cars.

You WILL NOT EVER have a viable all electric vehicle without batteries that are 10x smaller and 100 times more efficient in not only holding power, but transmitting that power...not to mention fast recharge times...and reliablity and longetivity.  Oh...and about 75% cheaper as well......if not 2-3 times cheaper.

Until then....the best you can do is hybrids.  Ask CSX and Norfolk Southern if they have found a way to power their locomotives using batteries only.  Trains have been hybrids for decades and will in the future because of exactly what I have stated.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:04 | 3607225 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

Oh....almost forgot....even if all the above happens....you need the massive nationwide infrastructure build out of recharging stations, battery disposal and recycling, and parts inventory buildup at the local Pep Boys or AutoZone to make it work as well.

Yeah....ain't going to happen in my lifetime.....(age 49 and increasing fast)

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:07 | 3607244 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

It other words, it will never fly and as oil continues its depletion more and more people will be walking or wishing they had a bike...

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:39 | 3608158 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Still hawking that expensive oil for Big Oil, eh Flakie? As long as the stupid sheep believe oil's scarce and they need as much of it as they're getting, there's plenty of those Big Bucks for the Esteemed Elites being spit out of those gas pumps, eh? Maybe the Esteemed Elite Snake Oil Salesmen would be happier if autos that got MORE than 10 mpg were outlawed, eh? The EPA and DOT are doing their best to keep auto efficiency low. We still can't buy those sub-100 gm/km ICE powered cars that typically get over 60 mpg in the US thanks to them.

http://greencarsite.co.uk/low-emissions-cars/

If anyone wants oil in quantities and pressures that are so huge they're difficult to manage, let alone sell, all they need to do is drill a very deep hole in the Golf of Mexico. Fortunately for Big Oil, they have most of that deep, abiotic oil tied up with their leases and their ownership of politicians.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:05 | 3607232 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Hint: there is no quantum leap which you speak of... Only marginal gains are left to be had, unless of course, price and size is not an issue...

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:13 | 3607267 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

I did not speak of any quantum leap....just that one would have to occur....which the chance of that is slim and none.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:09 | 3608039 Matt
Matt's picture

What about carbon nanotube ultracapacitors / batteries? Potentially much faster charging, vastly reduced or eliminated need for rare earths, potentially longer life span, possibly printed at homelocal shop using locally available graphite as feedstock.

http://web.mit.edu/erc/spotlights/ultracapacitor.html

 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:06 | 3607238 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Sadly, adding money won't produce new elements on the periodic table, and electro-chemistry is actually pretty well worked out already.  There will never be more than about 3-5x more in batteries unless one goes to fuel-air cells (since you don't have to carry the air around with you).

The grid can't support super fast charging anyway.  Most people have NO IDEA how much energy a car uses vs their normal loads, but living off the grid with an electric, as I do, it's eye-opening.  The 10kwh or so of a Volt battery takes you from 40-50 miles...in an efficient car.  So if you could charge it up in an hour, that'd be a 10kw (actually more, since nothing is 100% efficient).

10kw/220v (most house service) is 45 amps - if you've got 200 amp service (a modern home), then there's this hard limit how fast you can charge your car at home...even if the grid could support a bunch of people doing that at once, when in fact, it cannot - just like your ISP, the grid is oversubscribed and counts on the fact that not everyone uses all they can at the same time.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:24 | 3607317 Artifice
Artifice's picture

Too true. Solve the battery problem and we'll actually have to face the grid infrastructure issues.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:17 | 3607294 Artifice
Artifice's picture

Here's to hoping that graphene starts to pull it's theoretical weight well before the end of the decade.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:24 | 3608094 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

"WILL NOT EVER have a viable all electric vehicle without batteries that are 10x smaller and 100 times more efficient . . ."

Nonsense! If infrastructure that provided NEARLY continuous connection to the power grid (like the old electric busses) were constructed in the major transportation arteries, the batteries would only be required for the minor portion of the travel where one was off the grid and they would be recharging continuously while they were connected to the grid. There is newer technology, e.g. buried induction, that could enable this connection without the old overhead wires. Digital communications could provide energy billing and at the same time could enable greater capacity of the roadways by reducing the distance between computer controlled autos.

It would cost a lot, but the benefits would still be much larger than the costs.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:06 | 3607235 Axenolith
Axenolith's picture

100+ years ago electric vehicles lost out to liquid fueled vehicles for a reason...

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:08 | 3607248 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

The reason was that a fossil fuel car doesn't have to carry the oxidizer around with it.  At the usual 15::1 air/fuel mixture, that's a huge advantage, especially when 100 years ago, fuel was cheap, no one worried about pollution when there were far fewer people, and so on.  Things change...

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:08 | 3607250 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

Tesla is a fucking joke pumped by the MSM.

 

Who the fuck can afford an $80K car in this shit economy?

 

Add another $80K per year to fix the piece of shit too.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:11 | 3607259 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

This seems strange to me. I live in Miami. It's a car town. I have fairly good knowledge of cars and can spot them fairly easily. But I have never, let me repeat; NEVER, seen a Tesla on the roads here. Not one. So these sales figures are...well...what? did they sell them ALL in California?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:17 | 3607293 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

I've seen one in a mall. Actually IN the mall in short hills NJ. They have a store !!!!!!!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:35 | 3607355 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

actually, yes I saw one on display inside a mall also...right next to a Fisker. And we all know how that ended.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:34 | 3607348 EatYourCornTake...
EatYourCornTakeyourPill's picture

I live in Miami, I've seen a Tesla. There's one guy at my job who owns one. It looks really sweet. I find it strange that here in Miami more people don't use solar and there are no EV charging stations. In the summer we get like 14-16 hours of sun. Ridiculous dinosaurs living in this city.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:46 | 3607387 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

....they might all be around Palo Alto....that's where I am seeing them.....their showroom is nearby.

 

Nice looking car....no idea how it handles or how it does on a skid pad, but the range is pretty limiting.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:13 | 3607268 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

It is interesting that the only possible way for an electric car to succeed in the market seems to be at the luxury end. I’m not sure if that’s an example of trickle down, trickle up, or a trickle back flip with a twist. Other EV manufacturers (Nissan, Smart, Fiat,Chevy) are coming in with lower price point models, primarily for compliance reasons, and claim to be losing up to $10k on every car they sell.

The truth is, there is only so much electric power transmission capacity. The system can only handle a small percentage of EV’s in the nationwide fleet without breaking down. That’s not a problem in the beginning, but, it is a limiting factor in the total number of EV’s we could eventually have. If 10% of cars were electric, the power to run your car would cost three times as much as gasoline does now. That means your air conditioner, coffee maker, tanning machine, and hair dryer would be more expensive to run too.

I’m considering a lower end EV to replace one of my two family cars. I live in a place where many people already drive their golf carts to the grocery store, so, it’s not much different really. I’m well aware that EV’s will always be a niche in the car market. Any new technology that increases the efficiency of the total gasoline powered car fleet by 2 mpg is worth more to society and the environment than all electric vehicle manufacturing combined. I suppose all the Hollywood stars buying a Tesla for green bragging rights already know that too (sarc).     

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:14 | 3607271 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

I will stick with my 2 BMW in the driveway. And if gas goes up to $20 a gallon. Well they are works of art after all.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:49 | 3608191 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

If you like BMWs (I do too) and 74 mpg too, then why not ask your congressman to let some of these in?

"New engines for the BMW 1 Series 5-door Hatch
March 2012 sees the introduction of three new powertrains for the BMW 1 Series 5-door Hatch – the 116d EfficientDynamics, 125d and 125i – completing the range’s engine line-up.
The BMW 116d EfficientDynamics is powered by a 116hp, four-cylinder 1.6-litre TwinPower Turbo diesel engine which powers the car from zero to 62mph in 10.5 seconds, while peak torque of 260Nm ensures a smooth delivery of power. Emitting just 99g/km CO2 and returning 74.3mpg makes this the most efficient series-production BMW to date. These impressive economy figures are due to optimized features including a centrifugal pendulum, longer final drive ratio, Optimum Shift Indicators, 10mm lower suspension and reduced rolling resistance tyres.

Based on the current SE specification, the BMW 116d EfficientDynamics comes with 16-inch light alloy V-spoke wheels, Bluetooth hands-free with USB audio interface, front foglights, multifunction leather steering wheel and BMW Professional Radio with freestanding 6.5-inch Display and iDrive controller.

Thanks to its low CO2 emissions of just 99g/km the BMW 116d EfficientDynamics qualifies for the lowest BIK rate of 13 per cent, while offering a 100 per cent write down allowance in the first year, a 100 per cent discount on the London Congestion Charge and zero Vehicle Excise Duty.

The BMW 116d EfficientDynamics is on sale from March 2012 with prices starting from £20,885 OTR. "

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:18 | 3607297 edifice
edifice's picture

Mike Balon...er...Maloney likes them. :-)

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:27 | 3607329 Glass Seagull
Glass Seagull's picture

This is hilarious, the way people that work at banks are all of the sudden experts at everything (they're not, trust me).  Fact is, if the US roads were filled with Honda Civics, as opposed to gas guzzlers, the net emission profile would be much lower here.  Also, the emmissions at nodal power production facilities might be easier to cap/filter/control in the future than to try and do it for all the millions of vehicles on US roads...so why would it be bad to consolidate the emission points in the US to the power nodes and then aim for clean coal and natural gas heavy power production from the said nodes? FWIW, electric car charging stations popping up not far from energy capital USA, and are already exhibiting competitive behavior (proximity building, etc.).

 

Just another status quo "research" report (funded by the commerical crude hedging client commissions at JPM no doubt).

 

 

 

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:50 | 3607404 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

Really, if everyone was concerned we'd all be driving 50 hp clean diesels....personally I enjoy 300 hp.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:40 | 3607363 swedish etrade baby
swedish etrade baby's picture

Sweden have alot of hydopower and nuclear power plants. If Elon Musk cared about the environment he would sell all tesla cars in sweden. I am only kidding. i couldnt afford one.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 10:44 | 3607378 tsuki
tsuki's picture

JPMorgan, the first name in trust.  I believe all JPMorgan says.  I shall follow all JPMorgan's dictates.  Long Live the Presidential Cuff Links!

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:02 | 3607665 Floodmaster
Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:23 | 3608086 Matt
Matt's picture

The Panopticon Society at its best. Maybe the world will be a better place, once everyone is being surveyed all of the time, and every infraction is reported to the State. As long as absolutely everyone is equally monitored.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:07 | 3607683 gtguy
gtguy's picture

can someone send me a link to the original pdf?

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 12:37 | 3607764 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

Tesla will be USA's proof that Central Planning....does not work.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:15 | 3608058 Clowns on Acid
Clowns on Acid's picture

but that it still costs billions of dollars to "prove".

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:40 | 3608162 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Keep consumption up, the 'american' way.

Same product as the former one, cooked up with some marketing hype.

How 'american'.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 14:45 | 3608176 akak
akak's picture

Keep peddling cheap and stale propaganda bits, AnAnnoyingUs way.

Same product as all the rest of it, cooked up with some hypocritizenism hype.

How AnAnonymystical.

Wed, 05/29/2013 - 16:53 | 3608518 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Keep cat and dog consumption up, the 'AnAnonymist' way.

Same product as the former one, cooked up in a wok with hot and spicy sauce.

How Chinese citizenism citizenish.

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