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"Tax The Rich (More)?": Paul Krugman And Newt Gingrich Square Off - Live Webcast

Tyler Durden's picture


The periodic Munk debate spectacle out of Canada is memorable for bringing together very flamboyant personalities, discussing very germane topics. The one that has just started has a topic of whether the rich should be taxed. More. Surely an issue that has seen its share of discussion in the US in the past year, so we hardly expect to learn anything new. What is most amusing, however, is that the debate tonight pits none other than Paul Krugman (and former Greek socialist leader and economic destructor extraordinaire George Papandreou, whose family incidentally was found with tax-evading Swiss accounts so brownie points for extra hypocricy) defending more tax hikes, and pitting Newt Gingrich and Arthur Laffer on the "don't tax me bro" side. The result should be quite a memorable catfight.

From the Munk Debates:

Arguing for the resolution, be it resolved tax the rich (more), is Paul Krugman, New York Times columnist, Nobel Prize winner, and global authority on economic inequality. He will be joined by George Papandreou, President of the Socialist International and former prime minister of Greece.


Speaking against the resolution will be Newt Gingrich, recent candidate for the U.S. Republican nomination for President and former Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives. Gingrich will be joined by Arthur Laffer, a "founding father" of supply-side economics, and key economic adviser to President Ronald Reagan.

So, without further ado, here is millionaire Krugman vs millionaire Newt, debating whether it is "fair" for the rich to give "moar".


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Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:34 | 3611995 HelluvaEngineer
Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:51 | 3612033 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

I'll just assume the down-arrowers are drug dealers or illegal immigrants. Or possibly the 1%.

If everyone pays, more people will understand the cost of the Leviathan.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:55 | 3612072 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Don't you know. It will hurt the poor. Those making under 50,000 and on food stamps.

Baby boomer have agreed to fair a 20% wealth tax all for the greater good.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:17 | 3612140 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Krugman, Papandreou V Laffer and Gingrich?

For some reason I get images of Homer and Mr. Burns V Ned Flanders and Sideshow Bob.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:44 | 3612205 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

It has always been my contention that the debate over which economic class should pay what amount of taxes is flawed in its very nature by the belief that the government having more money is a good thing.  

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:22 | 3612327 AmCockerSpaniel
AmCockerSpaniel's picture

I agree with with the not giving too much money to the government, but the government is the one who decides how much they will take.

But on percentage bases; The tax rate should be such that the more one nets, the higher the rate. This is to enlarge the middle class. All

this trickle down stuff is a lie. If we want jobs here, then we need to dump "free trade". The only thing free trade did was to make it free to

move jobs out of here.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 23:03 | 3612576 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Well, you're half right.

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 00:14 | 3612710 Big Slick
Big Slick's picture

That was like watching paint dry.

Half of me thinks that if we still need to be making this argument, we've lost the war

The other half thinks that the true conversion will only be realized in the coming crisis/war.  

In either case, listening to Paul Krugman debate Newt Gingrich on whether to tax the rich is a monumental waste of time.  

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:47 | 3612535 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

'Everybody who makes more than I do should pay more taxes, so that I can get more free stuff.'

Like a wise man once said, democracies only last until they bankrupt themselves.

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 00:26 | 3612731 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You sure it wasnt "Socialism only works until you run out of other peoples money?  Which always leads to bankruptsy.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 23:02 | 3612574 Freddie
Freddie's picture

What are three CFR stooges and a sort of economist - Alec?

Gingrich is a CFR and so is Krugman assuming they would have him.   Laffler has a little credibility but the other 3 deserve a rope and a lamppost.    Gingrich pretends to be a conservative but he is a CFR Rockefeller C-lister.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:03 | 3612271 Roandavid
Roandavid's picture

Skins a little thin there, eh bucko?

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 14:07 | 3614304 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

@HelluvaEngineer: "I'll just assume the down-arrowers are drug dealers or illegal immigrants"

Don't forget the sheep who don't want to see their shepherds go without a nice wooly coat this winter-of-our-discontent.  Or they hope to morph into a shepherd one day.  Can you say "Stockholm Syndrome!" ?  /s

Seriously, though, why should I give a damn about how much more the 'rich' will pay?  What (!), because the rich will take their post-bailout or post-layoff fiat elsewhere?  LMAO.  People should worry more about their own tax bracket -- assuming they actually pay into the system.


Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:14 | 3612132 sitenine
sitenine's picture


No, just an ordinary guy here. I down arrowed you because "FAIR" and "TAX" are mutually exclusive concepts.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:35 | 3611999 FoeHammer
FoeHammer's picture

BARF. These guys make me sick.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:39 | 3612014 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Did Laffer every pay Schiff off???

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:41 | 3612019 Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

It could be worse.  John McCain could debate Syria with John Kerry.


Meanwhile, the farce hits a new low...

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:46 | 3612034 pigs-n-space
pigs-n-space's picture

Talk about two useless fucks......

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:58 | 3612081 steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

yes, Laffer has been wrong so often he's a counterindicator - and Newt is a history professor whose understanding of history ended with Aristotle.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:18 | 3612320 knukles
knukles's picture

Who is Syria?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:38 | 3612358 1000924014093
1000924014093's picture

"The butcher’s business has been replaced by a picture of a butcher’s business".


Who would have guessed that it would have been the "capitalist" countries that were busy creating Potemkin villages for their masters 80 years later?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:37 | 3612004 smacker
smacker's picture


Papandreou quoting the Marxist loon "Gordon Brown" will not get me on side.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:40 | 3612005 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

More MSM false dichotomy diversionary octopus ink splatter now in the form of a pseudo-intellectual pro wrestling cage match.   My money is on Gingrich.  I hope lightening strikes them both though, two crispy skeletons propped up against podium seems like it would entertain me much more.  EDIT Oh they are in chairs, not podiums.  That would be even more satisfying.  Take hairy greek man with you too.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:03 | 3612092 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

i've never seen anything more pseudo

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:37 | 3612009 KickIce
KickIce's picture

How about we hang both their asses and put them out of my misery.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:38 | 3612010 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Papandreou moderating is just precious...

Loved the monalogue on just societies...

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:43 | 3612366 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

Having anyone associated w/ Greece on the panel is like having Corzine on a Corporate Governance and Ethics panel.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:39 | 3612013 centerline
centerline's picture

More kabuki theater.  Reality = rich will get taxed into oblivion.  If you aint in the club, here it comes.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:39 | 3612015 Chief_Illiniwek
Chief_Illiniwek's picture

Ordinarily I would watch.  But the Simpsons are about to come on...

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:46 | 3612035 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

The Simpsons - Duff Beer Presidential Debate (0:32)

The Simpsons - Krustyburger vs. McDonalds (0:46)

The Simpsons - Radiation Dude vs. Radioactive Man (0:41)

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:01 | 3612080 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

What about Kang and Kodos - "go ahead and throw your vote away"

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:10 | 3612123 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Throw your vote away (0:20)

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:43 | 3612029 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

Gingrich could've beat obama but was thrown under the bus by his own party to run Mr. nice guy Romney who wouldn't confront anyone.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:54 | 3612062 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Gingrich is a progressive.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:55 | 3612068 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture


Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:03 | 3612091 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

I'd like to see Monica Lewinsky debate Bill Clinton on whether or not cigar insertion is a turn on.  Moderating would of course be Hillary.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:07 | 3612109 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture


Fri, 05/31/2013 - 14:10 | 3614326 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Don't you love the SNR at this point? /s

I vote for more signal, less noise. Please.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:07 | 3612114 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Linkin Park - In The End (3:37)

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:43 | 3612204 noless
noless's picture

Goldilocks, you, like i; enjoy linking to moderately relevant YouTube videos which draw pop cultural references which jibe with the tone.

Thereby, let it be known that in this instance i upvoted your contribution, even though it was In fact, numetal.

Let it be known to all, the truth uncovered for all to see.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 23:07 | 3612589 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Anyone remember when Clinton and Gingrich met in NH and conservtaives thought Newt would kick Bill's ass.  Newt was gushing over Clinton.  The reality is they are both CFR stooges (Rockefeller boys) and we know Bill is NWO.   Newt is a fake conservative RINO CFR member.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:59 | 3612084 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Gingrish is a POS who unfortunately hails from my neck of the woods.  He is a purely political creature, with no useful skills.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:31 | 3612174 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

and obama has some skillz?    

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:49 | 3612043 caimen garou
caimen garou's picture

that gang together does'nt make one good man, what a waste

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:50 | 3612048 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

Flat tax would eliminate 90% of IRS and tremendous power,  would bring the rich in the game by eliminating legal tax avoidance that is not affordable for lower or middle class.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:31 | 3612175 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

And, the Fair Tax would do even better.  We almost had the flat tax back in '86 in the US when there were only 3 tax brackets, as I recall . . . 22,000 revisions and 72,000 pages to the tax regulations later . . . here we are.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:50 | 3612049 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

No, Tyler......BOTH of these guys want to tax the poor more.......and the rich less.

It's just where they spend the poor's money (they call it "Revenue"), is where the debate is.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:52 | 3612056 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

Krugman wants to divide up a smaller and smaller pizza.    The answer is growing the economy.

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 00:50 | 3612750 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You want continual growth on a finite planet?  That'll destroy us!  That's how they scare simpletons into accepting a progressively smaller pizza until they finally kill each other over the last few pieces..

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:52 | 3612057 nbsharma
nbsharma's picture

Papandreou? Krugman? Gingrich? Jeez.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:53 | 3612058 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Anyone out there can tell me who is the krug and who is the other guy?

Just wonderin'

- Ned

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:53 | 3612059 surf0766
surf0766's picture

A 20% wealth tax on the baby boomers. They have raped this country for almost 30 years.  Time to pay their fair share.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:03 | 3612093 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

I agree with you, but I think we need a 50% tax on pensions for teachers, firefighters, and cops, and pretty much everyone with a room temperature IQ getting a public pension.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:05 | 3612100 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Hell yea!

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 23:12 | 3612598 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Must be a cold room if they are public (union) pensioners.

Anybody remember when we had an economy and you see all types of business people, mechanics and clerks out having lunch.  Now you just see cops, firemen, city workers and other govt workers. 

With their smug "I have a million $+ pension when I retire in 5 years then get hired back at full pay" look on their faces.  

F Them! 

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:39 | 3612177 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

here is the problem w/ raising anyones taxes.   Govt is so corrupt and inept why should  they get one more dime????


Gingrich made that point, govt must justify their current budget and become efficient(no real way they can) before considering new taxes.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:03 | 3612268 surf0766
surf0766's picture

He is a PROGRESSIVE ! His points are worth less that what I flush down the toilet.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:25 | 3612332 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

well thank god we got to choose between romney  and obama !! and that conservative obama in the white house!

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:44 | 3612369 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Write in whoever you want and stop whinning.

I never said Romney was the best choice. Just that the progressives are on the left and right.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 23:15 | 3612601 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Sadly we do not get to chose anything.  Anyone even close to decent was driven out quickly.  First Ron Paul ignored.  Then Rick Perry who is not great.  Then Romney did after the polls closed vote theft on Santirum in the Midwest.

Obama then did the same type of massive vote theft on Romney.  

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:19 | 3612460 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Unless he can score points by saying "Moon Colony", in which case the sky is (or is not) the limit.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:56 | 3612066 Rattling Bones
Rattling Bones's picture

Wait till Krugman hits 'em with his 'Planning for an Alien Invasion' idea.


I bet he plays that one like a trump card.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 19:55 | 3612070 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

You mean they haven't uncovered Krugman's secret Swiss account YET???

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:45 | 3612335 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

krugman the dumb doosh prob paid regular income tax rates on his income.  NOT


the beady eyed smugman scurries around like a rat.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:00 | 3612087 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Fuck. It's like a douchenozzle circus.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:51 | 3612224 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Krugman is the bearded lady

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:59 | 3612252 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Good one!

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:29 | 3612338 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

krugman is probably still a virgin, that is why he is a mad socialist wanting to punish everyone else for his inability to get any action.  misery loves company.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:01 | 3612088 GreatUncle
GreatUncle's picture

Gringrich is the better of the 3 for these 2 reasons although I don't think his method works anymore.

Greece is in the s%^t whilst under the watch of the ex Greek prime minister. Good that so we can inore him.

Krugman, loves Keynes but Keynes never saw the concept of a single global economy where all nations abusing Keynes would lead to a singular keynes global economy that has to print the money each year to pay the interest on the debt let alone borrow any more. Total fail, Krugman! Keynes did not know then men would one day walk on the moon so he could not forsee a single global economy and how anybody would earn the extra to pay the interest without printing it. What a joke. 

Problem for Gringrich though and his method is old assume there is something out there not yet being produced. Get the f%^k out of here we can have TV's to the moon through robotics and the amount of work for people ABOUT ZERO. Production max.

They all fail ... abysmally. The world has changed and all old mthods fail.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:57 | 3612242 Dapper Dan
Dapper Dan's picture

In regards to Krugman and his Keynesian  ideology,


So Here’s The Problem: Debt; more debt has been created under this ever inflating system of Keynesian Economics and it’s fractional reserve banking than can ever be paid off. More debt exists on this planet than money exists to pay it off. So how do we cure something that can no longer be cured through economic expansion? Because you see, economic expansion, inflation, is the only way things are cured in a Keynesian System. So this leaves one to ask, how does the Financial Cartel take down a monolithic skyscraper of debt that they’ve built all they way up to the heavens, but has become structurally unsound at its foundation without taking themselves out in the process?

Controlled demolition, that’s how.

Of course what I’m talking about there is the real problem, not the problem you will hear about in the news.

Hyperinflation is not ordinary expansive inflation like we are used to in a Keynesian system. It’s not even runaway growth. Hyperinflation is the loss of confidence in a currency. In this case, following an implosion in world bond markets, and a subsequent deflation of the world derivative markets, the world will lose faith in all fiat currencies. Hyperinflation will ensue around the world. Economic premises that we are familiar with, that we are used too, financial relationships, like those of inflation to growth in equity markets, will become useless, and will in fact work in an entirely opposite manner of the way they worked before a loss of confidence. Imagine Market deflation while the value of the currency is dropping like a stone. Market deflation while prices for basic commodities and finished products are going through the roof. While interest is being jacked up on a daily basis to try and stave off the ravaging beast of inflation. If you don’t think this is possible, simply look to the fall of the USSR and Argentina for modern examples of this economic time bomb at work. Hyperinflation will be the one and only thing on the mind of every person of the world, and they will be beating that dead horse back to death nightly on every TV screen around the world.

So how does hyperinflation happen? Many people thought printing money would cause hyperinflation, and if that money had actually been let loose in the street economy, it would have. But that money was tightly controlled by a select few and disseminated into the system through financial instruments rather than loans to business. But now the tipping point has been reached, we cannot grow our way out of this mess with stocks and derivatives, and yet we cannot put that money into the hands of small business, they would only ravage big business and steal their market share. The system is full, the over-arching cycles of energy and food production are all moving into decline, and that will in turn move populations into decline. There are simply no “Consumers” left to exploit, the edges of our economic habitat have been found and fully explored. There is simply no where left to grow.

So without growth in the Keynesian system comes deflation, but they’ve stalled that deflation with artificial money printing that has propped up markets that long ago should have collapsed under the weight of their own hubris. So it, the deflation, transfers itself to the only place it can, the credit markets, sovereign debt, bonds! And so the loss of confidence begins in the bond markets, with the losses piling over into the titanic fantasy world of the derivative markets.

Derivative Markets, the only place on Earth where you could find someone to buy an option on Unicorn futures.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:39 | 3612361 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

The best thing that could happen is the collapse of derivative markets, and all the overleveraged big players.   They do absolutely nothing for the real economy.   Strong hands will step in and provide capital to businesses that need it.   The central banks and derivatives are nearly an alternate universe nearly totally disconnected from the real world.   Of course the propaganda media and big bankers would scream armageddon, but it really wouldn't be, except for themselves.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:04 | 3612096 seek
seek's picture

Cripple fight!

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:06 | 3612102 mjelwin
mjelwin's picture

What's a good high paying job?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:36 | 3612188 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

government job, govt union job

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:50 | 3612220 surf0766
surf0766's picture

If you are one of the 48+ million on food stamps, a good job is any job that pays. Get off my dime.

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 04:20 | 3612850 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Wrong! A good job is one that pays cash under the table so you can continue to collect your food stamps. 

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:07 | 3612108 blindman
blindman's picture

yes, investigate the pentagon, the entire criminal
industrial complex, convict and prosecute the criminals
inside and outside the system, there ... and then the financers.
problem, mostly, solved.
do it.
miss it and nothing gets done.
all else is masturbation on the global scene,
par unusual.
end the miserable monetary slush fart, the fed.
international criminal control fraud queens to
the corporate rapist class.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:07 | 3612110 SILVERGEDDON

Beyond Thunderdome.

Two Men In, One man Out !

Up the debate stakes, and make good network TV out of the fights.

Think Of The Sponsors !!!! 

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:15 | 3612136 Wanton1
Wanton1's picture

The media is paved with assholes.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:17 | 3612142 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Two cunty fucks

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:19 | 3612148 Freedomtosayno
Freedomtosayno's picture

False Left / Right statist paradigm.


If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth program, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of superrich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead it becomes the logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs. Communism, or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite. – Gary Allen 

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:21 | 3612152 blindman
blindman's picture

tax and nationalism is /are straw men to
enslave and contain the truth, forms of stealing
in drag or under cover, a mustache perhaps?
ya ya .....

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:23 | 3612155 knukles
knukles's picture

Why not just give 'em all Louisville Sluggers?
Ratings, it's all about the ratings...

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:23 | 3612156 kevinearick
kevinearick's picture

It's always a false choice, Jefferson vs Hamilton, decentralized vs centralized economic's a company store and all the prices are completely rigged, either way.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:25 | 3612157 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Turdle Dee, Turdle Dumb. Round and round they go, going where all turds usually go. "Oh Archie!" (flushing sound)

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:24 | 3612160 blindman
blindman's picture

closing comments...
I am a moron. ..
each, take your turn and bend over, lick the
salt and moo: enjoy cow-ness till the thud of
culling and butchery is realized.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:25 | 3612161 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

Why am I not at all surprised to see Krugman teaming up with a socialist.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:28 | 3612169 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Celebrity Deathmatch - Men In Black Vs X Files (4:59)

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:37 | 3612190 thinkahappythou...
thinkahappythoughtandfly's picture

The GOP is whack. HMMM Bush era tax cuts and the war and Iraq is the real reason we have a 16trillion dollar debt. Of course tax the rich more but don't spend the money on bombs. Education, jobs, and healtcare is the real issues in this country so spend it on that. Also GOP work the bugs out of Obama care and quit complaining about it of cours it has bugs its new and they need to be worked out before its tested on us.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:43 | 3612203 FleaMarketPete
FleaMarketPete's picture


Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:55 | 3612237 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

The "Bush era tax cuts" which were not ended by Obama (but rather extended back to almost all of us who are either middle-class or poor) are a massively bigger portion of the "Bush era tax cuts" than those to the rich which were not extended.  When do we start calling these “Obama era” extensions the “Obama tax cuts?”

By the way, the tax cuts to the rich and the wars in Afghan and Iraq make up a rather small part of the "16trillion dollar debt".  You obviously haven't looked carefully at the composition of the spending if you say otherwise.

Here’s what’s really going on . . . for the last 120 years or so (these are supposed to be for the total aggregates for all of the governments in the US, not just the Federal):

Is that Atlas I see?  Shrugging?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:59 | 3612250 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

I should say that the first three graphs are for total of all governments in the US.  The last graph is apparently just for the Federal Government.  But, I just changed it to "total" and the chart doesn't change very much.  Try it yourself!

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:08 | 3612290 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

By the way, look at how everything changed in just about 1913.  It looks like something happened right around that time, and everything started declining, economically -- with respect to the idea of having governments in the US with somewhat limited powers, limited spending, limited taxation, and limited debts.  Gee, which ZH reader out there can name what happened in 1913?

(Or, was it the adoption of the 17th Amendment to the US Constitution creating the popular vote for the Senators instead of the Congressional Representatives electing the Senators?)

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:48 | 3612378 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

DailyKos is that way-------->


Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:22 | 3612468 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

Should you have pointed to the left?

(Or, did we wrap all the way 360 degrees around the entire political circle, not line?  You know, ther are four poles to the "political spectrum":  conservative and liberal as opposites, with anarchy and totalitarianism as the other two opposite quadrants between them on the circle.)

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:53 | 3612387 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

By the way, how can there be any working "the bugs out" of the so-called Affordable Care Act?  They added a huge bureaucracy of unelected politically-appointed government employees to the already bloated overhead of the industry supposedly providing “heath care” in the US.  There is no free lunch.  That additional cost of providing the heath care will be paid for by we the people in the private sector, whether through higher taxes or inflation (if not through increased corruption and waste).

How do you propose that the Republicans (if not the Democrats) fix that?

Heath care will become less affordable due to the Affordable Care Act, people.  Wake up.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:17 | 3612448 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

Not to mention that the supposed "recovery" (if there ever was one) obviously stopped growing in its "recovery" just about exactly when Obama signed the AFFORDABLE care act into law -- measured by job growth.  The ACA makes doing business more expensive (and thus a little less likely to happen, after all).  Coincidence?  I think not.


Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:40 | 3612195 newengland
newengland's picture

Both jerks.

I want more for more my money and blood, not their showtime incompetence.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:41 | 3612198 thinkahappythou...
thinkahappythoughtandfly's picture

taxing rich people more is a happy thought.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:51 | 3612225 steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

Aw yes, make them pay!  But there is no need to use the unbridled power of the state to extract their wealth.  T'would be enough to make them entirely free of the state.  No police protection for their persons or property.  No access to the courts to redress wrongs done to them.  They want feudalism and I say let's give it to them.  Let them be lords in their castles, behind their moats.  Irrevelent as they are repugnant.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:41 | 3612522 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Spoken like a 'Sgt at Arms for Hire'.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:56 | 3612240 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

taxing poor people less is a happy thought.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:39 | 3612517 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

taxing a happy people more thoughtfully is rich.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:53 | 3612231 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Hang them both.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 20:54 | 3612234 DIgnified
DIgnified's picture

The thief and the moon base commander debate.  Who can hurt their side the worst?   Let's find out...

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:16 | 3612315 khakuda
khakuda's picture

I can't even watch Krugman anymore.  He is smug and completely idiotic.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:50 | 3612382 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

he is a sickeningly petty, hateful man.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:19 | 3612321 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

I don't get it.  If deficits don't matter why tax anyone?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:34 | 3612350 Debt Slave
Debt Slave's picture

Krugman. They had to give him a Nobel Prize just so dumb people would keep taking him seriously as an economic guru.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:46 | 3612375 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Export them to China. Watch asia burn.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:50 | 3612381 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

These two gentlemen each deserve the Babel Sleaze Prize

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 21:58 | 3612400 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

No one ever clearly states what is the "correct" distribution of income, why that is the "correct" level, and who gets to decide this "correct" level.  Pretty sure there is no "correct" distribution. 

I'll take the flat tax or the fair tax to pay for very basic govt services.  After that, everyone keeps whatever money they make and let the income distribution chips fall where they may. 

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:37 | 3612511 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture


Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:44 | 3612526 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Is that the Bernie Madoff and Jon Corzine definition of 'make'? Or perhaps the Halliburton and Bechtel no-bid kind? Maybe the Angelo Mozilo kind? Or the John Thain kind? Maybe the Ken Lay kind?


Fri, 05/31/2013 - 07:38 | 3612943 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

Ok, substitute "legally earn" for "make" and answer the questions posed. 

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:22 | 3612467 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

The problem is that they say "The Rich", and you think about people, instead of GE, Apple, Halliburton, Bechtel, and Solyndra.

The truth is that corporations have been paying a dwindling share of the Federal take for decades and we could all get a break on our personal income taxes if they didn't.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:35 | 3612508 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

Businesses generally don't pay taxes, they collect them for the corresponding government from their customers, clients, and employees.

Or, they go out of business.

When a new cost of doing business is passed on to all of the "producers" in the industry, they all pass it on.  Just look at Venezuela, Cuba, France, Sweden, or any other country with really high "business" taxes (assuming they actually allow businesses).

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:39 | 3612516 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

Wake up, Man.  Business taxes are stealth taxes on the rest of us.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:52 | 3612556 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Well they sure put a lot of effort into hiding income, making double-Dutch sandwiches, and otherwise engineering the law in their favor if it's so incredibly easy to "pass on". LOL

$15T GDP, $3T in revenue, $400B from corps, and $2.6T from you, me, and the children of tomorrow.

Better their "customers" (as if it wasn't their shareholders taking that hit) than my kids!

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:57 | 3612565 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

They just followed the laws.  Why do you blame the people who followed the "loopholes" in the 72,000 pages of tax regulations (in the US, alone), instead of the people who wrote these "loopholes" into law?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:59 | 3612571 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

And, by the way, don't worry.

Your kids will absolutely be the ones to pay the price, as will all the rest of all of our children.  That's what 120% of US governement debt to GDP means.  It's the spending not the tax collection; look at the charts.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 23:19 | 3612615 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

PS, I'm pleased that you included GE in the list.

Wow, they were apparently the largest single taxpayer in China during the same year when they made something like 5 billion in profits in the US and paid 0 taxes that year!

Can anyone say green energy tax credit corruption?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 23:31 | 3612642 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

PPSS, Their stock prices for these stocks (except for Solendra (and I can't find Bechtel anymore . . . what happended, did they go private or something??)) have gone up during the time frame I think you are referring to, so their shareholders do not appear to have paid these new costs (at least not yet).  Trust me, you and I will both pay for this somehow or another, whether we understand or believe it or not.

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 07:49 | 3612957 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

Eliminating the corporate income tax (which ONLY individuals pay -- customers or shareholders) would significantly reduce corporate lobbying that everyone decries.   Taxes should only be levied on individuals (entities that can vote at the ballot box).  Then they may vote differently when they more clearly see what government is costing them.

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:52 | 3612553 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

By the way, it appears you did not look at the graphs I posted a little earlier in this thread.  Corporate taxes going down has virtually nothing to do with your taxes going up.  It is due to increased spending by the governments in the US.  (On probably increasingly crony-istic “businesses” with major lobbying powers on K street if not main street.)

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:56 | 3612563 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

I'm pretty sure they're spending it on drugs for the people holding the signs screaming about keeping the government's hands off their Medicare.


Thu, 05/30/2013 - 23:07 | 3612588 notquantumdum
notquantumdum's picture

You have a good sense of humor; this made me laugh hard.  The interesting question is, how can the government keep their hands off of a government program such as Medicare?

Thu, 05/30/2013 - 22:52 | 3612554 They trynna cat...
They trynna catch me ridin dirty's picture

Krugman reminds me of some autistic kid who was an abuse case in high school who has now as an adult found himself in a position to be 'the cool kid' and lash out at others like he always dreamed of.  He is the epitome of a loser no matter what 'prizes' he has to his name. 

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 04:40 | 3612855 currencywar
currencywar's picture

It is amazing to read that there are people here on ZH who still believe this tax the rich and victim crap sold to them by the progressive/statists in our midst.  Get with it.  The ship is going down and we need to work together to turn things around before it is too late.  The IRS needs to be stripped of much of its power...public unions need to be disbanded...this is just a start.

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 06:36 | 3612888 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

ahhhhh, it's KRUGMANNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 07:14 | 3612913 SilverMoneyBags
SilverMoneyBags's picture

LOLOLOLOL Clinton added so many jobs because of the tech sector. Clinton basically presided over the mass use of the computer, the internet, and cable television. Of course the effects of raising taxes on the rich in a period of abnormally high growth won't show any visible negatives. Unfortunately right now we are in a period of no growth or even contraction and every cent out there is potentially necessary to spark new innovations and technology to fuel future periods of abnormally high growth.

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 07:36 | 3612940 SilverMoneyBags
SilverMoneyBags's picture

Equality is a relative term. Someone that makes $75K and lives in a $250K house is unequal to someone who makes $250K and lives in a $750K house. However, this does not mean that both people don't have high standard of living.

Fri, 05/31/2013 - 12:41 | 3613931 Walt D.
Walt D.'s picture

They keep pushing this "Tax the Rich" canard. All it is is a smoke screen to mask the real problem - out of control government spending.

You do not help an alcoholic by giving him or her another case of vodka. Cold turkey is the only way to go.

Look at Chris Christie - morbidly obese. However, he chose to think of his children and not kick the can down the road and had stomach surgery. I'm sure the consequences were unpleasant.

This is what Congress and the Obama Administration will not do. They are stuck on stupid. They believe that we can borrow and spend our way to prosperity. Until they go on the wagon, they are postponing the inevitable - live now, pay later, kick the pain down the road. Giving them more tax money to waste is the worst thing we can do, no matter who is paying it.

Quote: "The real scandal is not Watergate but Profligate"

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