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Thought Experiment: Why Do We Bother Paying Personal Taxes?
Submitted by Lucas Jackson
Thought Experiment: Why Do We Bother Paying Personal Taxes?
"Stupidity combined with arrogance and a huge ego will get you a long way.”
- Chris Lowe
I will admit right up front, I am not a fan of the views of Paul Krugman. If Paul Krugman was to be given his way - and by and large he is being given his way - my children and grandchildren will be burdened in the future with paying back untold amounts of public debt just so his life and the lives of countless other Boomers can remain comfortable and embarrassment free today.
This is the essence of his grand plan for a US recovery – MOAR and MOAR debt.
Wow. Genius. Why I didn’t I think of that? Just keep borrowing and printing, borrowing and printing. Got it. Now that I understand it, do I get a PhD?
Who’s going to pay the money back? How will it effect future generations? How will it effect the markets? What will this do to civil society?
Who cares. Or as another defender of the status quo, Hillary Clinton, might say, “What difference, at this point, does it make?”
Krugman has a reputation as a high priest of Keynesian economics and his adherence to these views, regardless of how broken they are, is way more important than the future of this country. But don’t challenge his credentials. He teaches at one of the Ivy League universities which automatically puts him in a rare air caste. Plus he writes for the NYTimes so he must be wicked clever. Oh yea, he also has a Nobel Prize which surely means he is more intelligent, wise and deserving than the rest of us, right?
Ok, perhaps the Nobel Prize bit is unfair praise after the dubious award was given to Barack Obama despite the hundreds or even thousands of innocent civilians he has killed globally and the EU for… well I’m not actually sure why the EU got it, but that’s the point. Since the Nobel Prize has become a joke, I suppose it’s fitting then that Krugman has one. But I digress…
MOAR debt, that’s the answer. Got it.
Turn That Frown Upside Down
But in the spirit of healthy academic debate, I like to consider the other side of the argument. So I got to thinking about things this weekend and said, “Self, what if ol’ Krugman is right?” To which my self replied, “What! Heresy! Unpossible!”
But seriously, what if he is right? What if there is no long term harm to running up ridiculously high public debts and monetizing them via the central bank? Of course, history at almost every point in time contradicts this ludicrous position, but what if this time IS different?
So I got to thinking, maybe this increase in debt and no cost monetization via the central bank thing will work. But if it does, let’s use this moment to really rid ourselves of the most pesky of income adjustments – personal income taxes.
The US government will take in about $2.5 trillion in taxes this year. Seems like a lot of money but when you look at what the Fed and US govt can do when they really wants to, $2.5 trillion is child’s play. The Fed alone has doled out trillions in USD to TBTF banks alone. Add in TARP and other bailout programs, the backstops on FNMA/FHLMC (still not counted on the govt’s balance sheet), the interest savings associated with ZIRP (to the borrowers, not savers), the FDIC insurance subsidy which accrues to the banks, the mortgage interest subsidy and financing provided to the real estate industry, the growing mountain of federally insured student loans fueling the bubble in education, etc. The list goes on and on but the point remains the same, when the govt wants to spend big, it certainly can.
Since Mr. Krugman tells us all this spending and debt issuance/guarantees are not only good and necessary but in the long run, painless, why are we bothering with personal income taxes?
The US government will collect approximately $2.0bn this year in Personal Income and Payroll taxes. But why? Why are we even bothering with this when today’s leading economists and politicians are telling us that debts/deficits don’t matter and running up astronomical debts is a long-term painless process? It’s practically patriotic. So why shouldn’t we just add our tax burden to the list of items the Fed should be monetizing?
Seriously. Why not relieve the burden on every tax paying citizen in the United States (about 53% of us according to Mitt Romney)? You want an economic recovery? Reduce my taxes to zero and see how fast I go out and start spending some of that extra income.
Since I reside in the wonderfully unbalanced city of Manhattan, my all-in tax rate including federal, state and city taxes combined with sales taxes, fees, the implicit property tax I pay in my rent, etc, is way north of 60%. If the Princeton duo of Bernanke/Krugman would only work with Congress and the President to eliminate taxes and allow them to unleash their Keynesian magic, I will become a consumer again. Big time. My animal spirits will return. Big time. My holdings of physical gold will increase. Big time. Oh wait, that’s another topic – ignore that last one…
Cui Bono
If Krugman is right, the debate right now shouldn’t be on the huge level of US debt or deficits, it should be on which group in society benefits the most from the issuance and monetization of this debt.
Currently, the undisputed champions in this fight for government/Fed largess are the TBTF banks. Hands down.
Coming in a distant second place are the large, global corporations able to game our deliciously labyrinthine tax system (looking at you GE) and fund at generationally low levels, credit risk be damned (looking at you HY market).
Coming in dead last are the savers, workers and regular taxpayers of this once great nation.
This is what has to change. Since the debate isn’t really about whether or not Krugman is right - we’re running up the debts and monetizing them apace anyway - we have to shift the thinking to whose benefit are we directing the pillage.
If we want to continue to allow the TBTF banks and large, global corporations to run roughshod over the American consumer, then by all means, continue the status quo.
But if there is serious discussion to be held about how we improve the plight of the average American, cut our personal taxes to zero and let the magic of Paul Krugman’s Keynesianism cum never-ending-debt growth cum Fed monetization without consequences save the day.
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Don't go all reductio ad absurdum on us
I'd be fine with going back to the tax rate at which the law was sold to the public and passed under ........... 1%
Let's quit making fun of Paul.
he'll get more insecure than he already is.
maybe even face the abyss of zero self-esteem, one of the majestic preconditions to suicide.
Juast thinkin' out loud....
when you pay all that money in taxes, *we* decide how to spend it
The point is that our government needs to finance its operations. That's why we need to pay taxes, idiots. Just accept it!
Here all along I thought Bernanke just printed it.
There is only one reason people pay taxes: FEAR.
If you don't pay, first you get letters. Then they go after your bank account.
And if that doesn't work to their satisfaction, you get more papers, followed by armed men seizing you and locking you in a cage.
Then, you have the privilege of begging to be let out if you promise to obey in the future and pay a heavy fine.
If not, you stay in the cage longer than murderers and rapists.
"All your money are belong to us"
- BHO
We have to pay taxes so the people in power can continue to believe that we believe we are living in a world different than the world we are living in.
Nice piece. Sadly there is an answer. But first, much as I hate banksters, the biggest beneficiaries of the scam are governments at all levels, who finance their budgetary crimes at near zero rates, and at the expense of savers.
As most of us know, we have to pay taxes to preserve the illusion that the debt might be repaid some day, which it won't, because it can't. It all comes apart the day Ben prints a little less, or something big breaks. Tic Toc.
Ronald Reagan had what was called the Grace Commision do a study of the IRS and where the Federal tax money went in the eighties. To summarize, a very small part went to the govt, most of the federal tax dollars went to pay the interest owed on the debt.
According to Sullivan v. USA, there is a problem with paying taxes (see pg 23):
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/SullivanVUSA.pdf
Two thing....
Yeah for MDB
Second, This guy is a genius. I want my bailout too!!!
BAIL ME OUT!!!
BAIL ME OUT!!!
BAIL ME OUT!!!
No income tax?? What a funny concept to bring up on the 100 year anniversary of the 16th amendment which made the income tax legal (and of course the 100 year anniversary of the Federal Reserve).
Not significant problems, though. Not legal problems.
Then they couldn't call you a slave...
Taxation is about reshaping society.
As an early predecessor of the Bernank said nearly 70 years ago:
Taxes for Revenue are Obsolete
http://mikenormaneconomics.blogspot.com/2012/08/beardsley-ruml-taxes-for...
Examine what you wrote .... CH1. You just identified how to kill the beast.
Why do we "need" to have so many "operations"?
And you're very forceful today, Do you make money collecting taxes or something?
Hhmm. Perhaps it's the details of those "operations" that are the problem.
that you Barack?
I'd like to make a personal donation to you and yours, sir. To whom do I write the check?
It is mathematically impossible to sustainably finance government using taxes, when using fiat money that is created out of thin air, and lent out with interest due. You will end up with no dollars in circulation, and principal still due.
Taxes are tribute that is paid to banksters, for their generosity in allowing our continued existence. /sarcasm
"... our government needs to finance its operations. That's why we need to pay taxes, idiots."
You mean operations like the Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syrian wars?
Or subsidies to large corporations that bribe our Government officials, like General Electric?
Or lavish pension and benefits for Government "employees".
Or so that they can take away our liberties, like with the Military Defense Authorization Act?
Looks like you are the IDIOT, just accept it!
Even if those 'operations' are not for OUR benefit?
MDB is right. And now that "our" government is growing and that "our" GDP and "our" economy is dependent upon "our collective" growth of the "public" sector, "we need to" pay taxes and contribute "our fair share." It's just the "social contract" which "we are" obligated to as a "modern society." ;-)
[Note the use of the ambiguous "we" and "our" instead of the more direct "you" or heaven-forbid "I" which has been perfected in political language and etymology.]
Always thought you are a jerk.
Now I KNOW you are an uninformed idiot, incapable of rational thought.
Read 'The Constitution of No Authority - Rothbard - and get back to me, asshole.
But it is true that despite the western government's desire to 'boost the economy' not one has cut taxes.
Hmmm.... Its almost like they want the recovery on their terms. No reduction in taxes, no reduction in the size of government. In fact, increases in the size of both! And that is supposed to help the recovery process!
I told a friend of mine this, and he said "Thats only if you don't believe in Keynesianism."
I didn't think that even merited a response!
It's almost as if ZIRP and QE are actually there to benefit the banks and THIER stakeholders, rather than the rest of us.
But that can't be - our leaders would have surely told us if that were the case.
If I walk up to you in the street with a knife and say 'give me your money, or else...' it's called robbery.
If the Gubmint comes to you and says give me your money or I'll destroy your life, it's called taxation.
Can anyone point out why the two are different??
+100 and a greenie.
Thought income tax was VOLUNTARY anyway..Most tools can't believe that.
@THECOMINGDEPRESSION
I think the 16th Amendment should be repealed; however, while payment is voluntary, compliance with the law is not. So, if you don't pay what they say you owe, your assets will be seized and you can be imprisoned. Just ask Wesley Snipes.
There's a big argument going on in the comments section to a post on another website about whether wages in exchange for labor are really considered income/profit by law.
Seems one man is fighting the IRS over this very topic and has continually requested that the IRS provide the exact law that states that wages are income.
@Pure Evil
Interesting. Good luck to him with that legal argument. And what is the constitional basis for the FICA taxes? Still, pay or face the full fury of USG.
"So, if you don't pay what they say you owe, your assets will be seized and you can be imprisoned."
That's what's called "voluntary payment"? As in like.... I can get a new Chevy Camaro in any color I want, as long as it's Black? Payment is voluntary, but if I don't "voluntarily" pay, then...
To me, voluntary means that I only pay for products or services that I actually want. And no one else makes any decision as to where my money goes in any way, shape or form... otherwise it's not voluntary.
We can pretend that the a piece of paper called the Constitution limits the size, scope and power of Government, but that's all it would be, pretending.
"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"
4 Non Blondes - "I realized quickly when I knew I should that the world was never this brotherhood of man, for whatever that means."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NXnxTNIWkc
To me, freedom and liberty bring people together. But I feel that when it's not voluntary, it's hard to find brotherhood.
Not sure what your angle is here. If more and more people stopped paying, they would be unable to prosecute.
Indeed. I keep asking the question "Why do we pay taxes?" not to get the usual BS about what your government wants to do with it, but to seriously ask people why they as a nominally free person decides to pay taxes! If even a quarter of the taxpayers told government at all levels to go stuff it, they'd have a nightmare on their hands...and I for one would like them to see them transition into full Nazi for all to see or backdown and see everybody join the party...either way real change would be in the offing! Unfortunately all too many latter day Americans are weak, stupid, fearful and in the end utterly useless...so we are back to waiting for it to implode on itself.
Wages in exchange for labor are definitely NOT income. The only way they can be construed as such is if the laborer's time has a value of $0.
What kind of person's time has no economic value to the person himself? A slave. Whoops.
There is a reason that the IRS is domiciled in Puerto Rico.
But, nobody at the IRS gives a shit about the law, and you won't be able to find a judge with even the slightest interest in investigating the law, as it is written.
Who you callin' a slave Buckaroo?
Well Bill Benson would argue that you cannot repeal that which was never passed in the first place.
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/
Or look at Joe Banister as well. He was the guy who came to take your property for the IRS until one day he started researching it. He put together a report that asked the questions we want answered and he was asked to resign for it.
www.freedomabovefortune.com/
As to the original argument about income taxes and raising money, the income tax was never about that. It was merely another safety valve on the fractional reserve money lending system. On the issuance side you have interest rates, on the remittance side you have taxes. Both are merely used to keep the fraud going.
pods
Wesley Snipes was on the right trail, but he didn't fully understand the Uniform Commercial Code.
First, his negotiable instruments had United States Notes or similar across the top. If he had written private notes or Wesley Snipes Notes, he would have been OK.
Second, did he file a UCC 1 Financing Statement and cancel the indenture at the international level? You can't write your own notes if you don't have the authority to manage your own commercial affairs as a secured party.
Third, did he create controversy with the IRS? The IRS has set up many traps to throw people into controversy. Trap 1: Amount due. Totally irrelevant when you are discharging your debt. Trap 2: Charge you the same amount for one or more years. Again irrelevant. Trap 3: Date and times of communication. You must stay on schedule for your responses. Trap 4: They send you incorrect information to make you look like you are in dishonor, generally while passing the case along to different IRS offices. For example, you didn't pay. You didn't respond in time... and so on. Of course, I don't pay. I discharge all the debt. Always rebut presumptions and respond with attributes of logic like completion, detail, general to specific, etc. Keep impeccable paperwork and send them back your tracking receipts. All paperwork sent with overnight tracking.
Fourth, did he discharge with the Secretary of the Treasury? The IRS doesn't have the authority to discharge debt, but the Secretary does. Give notice. Notice to the Principal is notice to the Agent. Notice to the Agent is notice to the Principal. Timmay was most obliging.
Fifth, did he discharge and close the account according to the trinity? you have to discharge through the trinity and close the account through the trinity. Discharge is the presentment, negotiable instrument, and IRS voucher or promise to pay. Closing includes the presentment, statement of account over the entire series, and letter of confirmation that the account is closed. You are a corporate sole and must manage in a professional manner.
Sixth, did he endorse his negotiable instruments and all the paper sheets of the IRS contracts front and back with his signature? We have a two signature system of assigning liability in the US. It is illegal to refuse to pay and creates controversy. People say they don't want to pay because they don't have the money. But in a bankrupt society, where there is only fiat, you can discharge your debt for any amount with no need for controversy. It is both the beauty and insanity of this vile Keynesian system.
It's only voluntary until you don't pay......
"Thought income tax was VOLUNTARY anyway"
I think it is Voluntary because the 5 Amendment says that you have the right not to "Testify" against yourself. The 4th Amendment says that you have the right to be secure in your papers. Without a Search Warrant people should not be required by the Government to require information about you and your privacy in your "papers".
If you voluntary give information to the IRS you are waving your rights under the 4th and 5th Amendment of the Constitution.
The penalties of the IRS coherse's people to give up their Constitutional rights.
"The US government will collect approximately $2.0bn this year in Personal Income and Payroll taxes."
I'd like to see the source for this information. I don't buy it
If we didn't pay personal income taxes, what would all the accountants and IRS agents do? (besides that ... what would Illinois do for the 5% income tax it takes from me?)
"Don't go all reductio ad absurdum on us"
Sometimes, extrapolation proves how ridiculous a theory is. This was one of those times.
Lets extrapolate the current unemployment formula that claims if you are no longer looking for work, you are no longer unemployed. What is the unemployment rate when everyone is unemployed, but not looking for work? 0%. Sure, that could never happen unless Ben was dumping money out of helicopters to the general public and devaluing the currency, but that's what happens when you extrapolate.
Already done...
Because we need some entity to hire all those sadists.
and the government loves us and love costs money.... just ask any streethooker.
And like my Grandpa used to say: never go down on a hooker....
I have no clue what he meanth by that but I think it's related...
We could be cousins. Was your Grandpa's name Elbert?
isn't everyones?
Just make sure she wears a vagina condom and you can go down all you want.
Unless of course he was referring to toe sucking and then that's a whole new ballgame, can't help ya there.
Of course for those out there not interested in vaginas, a regular condom should suffice, "not that there's anything wrong with it".
Met with my CPA today on tax matters.
He stated that if the general public ever found out just how small a percentage of the population actually filed, let alone paid taxes, the entire charade would come to an end.
Intriguing. Could you elaborate please?
What people don't understand is, we are taxed on income.
One of our biggest problems though, is ill-begotten WEALTH. That means the money has already been earned. Its not subject to income tax!
See, its only income when little people make money. When the wealthy make money, it gets taxed at a completely different rate (if at all). Dividends, capital gains, using offshore entities, shell companies, etc.
Warren Buffet is an expert on playing shell games. Probably, 85% of ObungaHole voters don't file taxes, and undocumented workers definitely don't file, they send the vast majority of their earnings back to their families in the home country.
Those running cash businesses vastly understate income.... the guy who owns the local newsstand, bodega or corner shop is far better off than you think.
As for those of us that work for salaries paid by coroporate entities... it's all reported to the government and god help you if your numbers don't match what they have.
YOU are the ones providing the ILLUSION that government has 'revenue' to pay off all the debt that government is accumulating.
I am a physician and on a daily basis I take care of patients that own businesses yet their financial registration clearly says "unemployed". These patients are almost universally on medicaid (government insurance for the poor). One young couple had keys to an Escalade, a Louis Vitton bag and both had iPhones. They were immaculately groomed and clothed. This kind of fraud is rampant....
...or not rampant enough.
I dislike people like that and don't condone it whatsoever, but I don't blame them, because they have been raised in this sick world. And they see this rampant fraud all around them (if they have their head up and eyes open, any way) and they've been indoctrinated "If you can't beat em, join em".
You know, like all the billionaires who became philanthropists when the estate tax was introduced, back in the day? Foundations started popping up all over... Not-for-profit, and non-taxable, of course.
Fraud? I see freedom fighters where you see felons. Why don't you rat them out then?
Know what doc, someday you can cut up and experiment on FEMA camp inmates. I know you're down for that, right?
Every plumber and hairdresser I know makes (sorry, reports) between 17k-23k per year. The record low labor participation rates as well as the record low self-employed also show how many are actually just dropping out of the reporting alltogether.
The fed is pumping 80 billion a month in Quantitative easing
If personal taxes bring in 2.5 billon a year,We could have a year long tax holiday for a mere 209 million a month increase fed pumping.
We the people lost a lot a lot of control when the gov and banksters figured how to spend money that wasn't collected in taxes
They no longer needed to ask our permission to spend. It sounded very good for a while.
But the tax payer has fallen to a new low in prestige below the well fare recipient, below the illegal alien.
These groups have risen in the eyes of our political class the elites. Even though they don't control the pols purse strings they will gladly sell their vote for a short term benefit
The politicians don't need our money they can create that
What they need is our vote
And of course they will get the least expensive vote being good shoppers
Fuck Bernank, ManPigKrug, AND the I.R.S.!
Your audit has been scheduled for Thursday, November 14th at 9:00 AM. Don't forget your records and have a nice day.
You forgot to mention it will be held at FEMA Camp Waterboard, room 101.
Whatever.
Because income tax and the IRS is about control, not funding the government. See the new IRS Health care program (do you own any guns, are you depressed), and harasment of dissident political groups/people who ask too many questions. Oh and no healthcare for not obeying.
IRS: Do you won any guns?
Knukles: No
IRS: Are you depressed?
Kunks: No
IRS: When did you quit masturbating?
Knuks: Oh, about 9:00 o'clock last night.
The IRS is always looking for people who are good at handling dicks...
To me it's more that the government just wants their "cut" of everyone's paycheck, like the mafia. Control is a big part. Govt' long ago passed the point where the average citizen could still say "no."
Who says I quit?
Not Eric Holder
Figured a guy with the moniker knukles woul dbe a master baiter.
You'll appreciate this:
There seems to be cum all over the debt and the Fed.
IRS must have tuned their intertubes to the SEC channel.
Taxes are the insiders bonus for the year. Isn't ever going to happen...
Besides that, there's the hopium that you'll get some back before you die.
I pay taxes because if I don't a bunch of armored vehicles and men wearing all black packing enough ammo to cut my house in half show up demanding I pay the $1,754 that I "owe for the protection of my freedoms" which can be taken only two ways...
Beautiful. Imaginethere was once a time when we thought we were citizens sharing the costs for our beloved country. Who believes that anymore? Who would not open the gates to virtually any enemy if only they promised to execute every member fo the TBTF cabal? To anyone who would stop the lies?
People say things like "Oh, thats the kind of attitude that led to Hitler and every other autocratic despot". And all I can say is, "I see where the appeal was for the common man. Witness to rampant fraud your entire life, and someone comes along promising, nay, delivering justice?
it's important that we make back every single point lost Friday, no matter how fraudulent it looks.
BlowHorn: Buy The Dip Mentality and the FED is unstoppable...
Nothing else matters. That is all.
I had lunch today with a psychologist. smart dude. he wanted to talk about the market. he said he felt it's important not to get greedy. It's important to get out and take gains before everyone else. I asked him when he felt he would do that. He said "maybe in a year or two".
Buncha my golf buds are shrinks.
They're all fucking crazy, too.
Insanity. You got to love it. Japan crashes 7% in a day, 16% in a couple days. Turkey down 17% over a couple days. "Maybe in a year or two"
I tried to explain to my dad how the steady withdrawal requirements by baby boomers means there's likely to be a sideways, volatile, market for the next few years at least (barring the effects of currency devaluation).
LOL
I had lunch today with a psychologist, a psychotic and a sex addict. Boy do I hate eating alone !!!
O/T Looks like zero volume and ES (Fed. hopium) win the day.
I guess if you want to enjoy rally tuesday you gotta get in Monday.
The bernak still rules the day.
Just a distant memory now fonz. Up, up, up...
I actually think this sets up better to finally let the Tuesday betters lose their shirt. Front-running the sure thing on Monday now it's sick to watch. This time they lose. Open up tomorrow then turn for a big loss.
Is it finally time or am I just dreaming (again)?
Answer: Why do businesses pay the vig on a protection racket?
....to maintain the mobility of their knees obviously.
Taxes help people believe paper money actually has value.
Taxes are the one method that politicians use to retain and grow power. They can reward those who are loyal and punish those who are not. They can be used to buy votes. They can be used to favor certain behavior types deemed good and punish those deemed bad.
US citizens and corporations spend upwards of 500B per year complying with and paying taxes. That is almost as big as TARP. Remove taxes and that income flows into the pockets to be spent. BUT - it will never happen. There is very little support for changing the tax code. The hit to unemployment alone would shudder almost any politician thinking to make a move. The IRS, accountants, tax lawyers and support staff is likly upwards of 2 milllion people in the US alone. Some are full time, some part time. Removing taxes completely or moving to a flat tax would immediately put most out of a job permanently. This would hit the unemployment rate pretty large. Politicians want to get re-elected and that is mostly all they think about. Putting that many people out of work does not look good to them.
Talk to 100 accountants, I think 90+ would want tax reform, purely because the tax code is completely out of control, and does more harm than good. The 10 that disagree will of course be the ones who get the highest fees for knowing the obscurest ins and outs of the Tax Act.
I am an accountant... I want tax reform... I would literally love nothing more than to be out of a job because the tax code is so simple (and palatable, i.e. generally unburdensome insofar as tax rate) that a caveman could do it. However, that isn't going to happen anytime soon.
Simply put, the tax code is too complicated for most professionals to follow... It's no different than having a myriad of municipal ordinances that no one knows... It creates selective enforcement and an arbitrary rule of law. Bad business.
Nice post. I'm not a lawyer, but I played one today, despite not staying at a Holiday Inn Express. Sued BofA for mortgage fraud, just skinnied it in under the statute of limitations.
As much as I love BofA (they keep paying the taxes on my house), I had to sue them, because, deep down, I know they are scumbags and deserve many, many more lawsuits beyond just little own me's.
(Hey, those gals in the dating site ad to my left sure have big bazooms)
Anyhow, you want complex? Try suing somebody in Supreme Court in NY. I'm not even sure I did everything right, but the old biddies at the County Clerk's office were reassuring.
And besides BAC paying my outrageously high NY property taxes, I always file federal and state income taxes, but haven't paid a penny in 14 years. So, thanks, scumbag BAC and the even scummier louts who wrote the tax code that I so adroitly exploit every fucking year!
Ya gotta love the country. I'm on vacation... maybe permanently.
Sorry...my attention was diverted when you mentioned big bazooms.
Politicians want to get re-elected and that is mostly all they think about. Putting that many people out of work does not look good to them.
I agree and disagree. Politicians don't want to eliminate the IRS because they know the country will prosper and the small-government, libertarian ideology will win the day. They know those 2 million people who previously depended on the IRS for their livelihood, plus millions more, would find plenty of new employment in the prosperous economy, which would explode if people got to keep what they earn.
This example can be used for all lines of government who claim that we would be lost without them. If we ever get the self-governing, free-market snowball rolling down the hill, TPTB know that there would be no way to stop it from becoming an avalance and politicians would be rendered useless.
Don't worry, though. It'll never happen. Time to go watch The Kardashians.
Meat, there's always black markets, the underground economy and just plain old American-style cheating, so cheer up. Compliance with the federal tax ponzi and the rest of the myriad of laws, rules and regs is for the birds.
Speaking of birds, I wish those sparrows would stop landing on my giant tobacco plant that grew a foot in one week. Yeah, I grow it, cure it and smoke it. FU Guv Cuomo!
Taxes provide the illusion that we have a functional system in place. Take away the taxes and the whole thing is exposed for what it really is.
abolish property tax instead on ones primary residence
To allow the existence of a large 3-letter government agency that targets entities like the tea party
because we like to see all those million dollar presidential commercials on television every 4 years followed by those lobbyist infomercials why buying their toxic stuff is actually good for our kids.
And don't forget. All tax free campaign donations remain tax free regardless of how the candidate choses to spend them. even after the election.
how else would the prostitution sector be funded and who else would pay for underage hookers.
it's for the kids.... never heard that slogan before?
WOW! Look at that ramp! Algos gone wild.
Why the hell would anyone live in Manhattan ? < other than the fact that it is the location of their assigned worker internment camp > ....I don't get it.
I worked there for years, commuting in and out. Even lived there for about 6 months.
Bad ju ju
New Yorkers are crazy
Best food in the country, but crazy people.
The tax on labor should be the same as any other sales tax. No more. No less. And no exemptions.
You sell your labor, just as someone sells something they made with their labor.
If your labor is taxed then you should be able to depreciate your body and your life against your Taxes. Toward your end years the depreciation should entirely wipe out your Tax liability.
In summary if you are being taxed like a comodity then as the well runs dry (your get older) you should be fully depreciated.
we are all wasting time talking about abolishing taxes which is never going to happen while we could have been buying the rip.
the fed has us completely hooked.
You lost me at "Hersy" and "Unpossible".
Your spelling is as poor as MDB's
He also wrote:
How will it effect the markets?
That should be affect, but what the hell. Nouns, verbs, and all that. Nobody studies in school any more....
Well, we can always start a grass-roots movement to have a Republic with a flat tax, or no income tax, or no property tax, or no sales tax... Oh wait...
Seriously though, how about we 'Nationalize the Fed', and make them print Debt-Free Money? As in "zero-interest money"?
I think they were called Greenbacks in 1862. They were despised by the elites due to the fact you couldn't earn interest off them.
And if $85 billion a month in QE is good for the economy, then why not just double it to $170 billion and make the economy doubly good ?
And if giving QE to the banks is good for the ecomony, then why not give every person QE and make the economy GREAT ?
And if its good that Bernank has a printing press, then why not make it better by giving everyone a printing press ?
I sometimes wonder why the hell I pay income taxes...(1) because the money gets wasted on crap; (2) because you hear commercials asking if you have $20k in back taxes and we can help you get most or all of these liens taken care of....why should I pay taxes then, simply wait out the IRS, when then ultimately threaten me, go to one of the evasion firms, give them some $$ and pay near nothing to the Feds...what is wrong with this scenario ???
"What is wrong with this scenario???"
Nothing. It's brilliant. Let me know how it pans out.
I liked the now dead Kucinich NEED Act (HR 2990), which built on the IMF's Chicago Plan, Revisited working paper. Too revolutionary to have had a chance.
"1) The Federal Reserve is dismantled and good parts are
placed into the US Treasury. A Monetary Authority is created which avoids an inflationary or
deflationary money supply.
2) Accounting rule changes prohibit the banks from creating what we use for money- from using debt
for money - what’s known as fractional reserve banking is decisively ended.
3) The Congress originates (creates) new US Money and spends it into circulation, for infrastructure,
health care and education; starting for example with the $2.2 trillion the engineers tell us is needed
for infrastructure over the next 5 years. Later the human infrastructure of health care and education is
added. This is estimated to create over 7 million good jobs quickly.
Additionally the NEED Act, HR 2990:
* Pays off the national debt as it comes due, if necessary by creating the money to pay for
Bonds coming due, rather than rolling them over with new borrowing
* Limits interest rates to 8% including all fees; Historically this is a high interest rate
* Ends compound interest; with the rule that total interest may never exceed the principle,
except on mortgages
*Lets the 50 states decide where 25% of the new money goes each year through per
capita federal grants. Some general areas can be specified – infrastructure, health,
education. Unfunded federal mandates, pensions. This is a big deal – no way that
any local actions (e.g. mythical local currencies) can be as powerful in solving local crises.
* 2990 Contains a tax free dividend for every citizen. Imagine if the bailout went to all
our citizens. Say 3 trillion to the citizens instead of to the banks. With 300 million
citizens that $10,000 to every man, woman and child. $40,000 to a family of four. The
depression/recession would be over! Banks could have competed for these deposits"
http://www.monetary.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/HR-2990.pdf
I would rather pay taxes than face the spectre of a privatised Police force, for example. Transparency and efficiency are the real issues.
Edit: Following some robust downvote action :) to add, to clarify, I agree that participating in a society is A Good Thing. I receive services etc from the state, rubbish collection, fire, police etc, and I know that my fellow humans within this state are recieving help when needed (not sponging benefits), and this is the social security I can also enjoy. Great, happy to pay for that, seems like a good deal. The point is, it's not the tax for these things that is the problem - it's the transparency and efficiency in using that tax that is the heart of the issue. I would therefore, rather have a Police force that is state run and publicly accountable, and pay tax for them, rather than pay nothing but be Policed by private corporations on government contract, again, it's clearly the nature of clandestine wastage and abuse of tax money that irks, not the underlying concept.
But you are OK with a private corporation having a monopoly on your currency?...printing if for free and charging you interest on it.
Lol, no, not in the least, but my comment didn't mention CBs so I'm not sure where you got that idea from. The Creature is still required reading in these parts, no? :)
From my understanding, the 16th amendment (assuming its passing was legal....highly questionable) only applies to corporate income and that when the law was passed income and wages were not equal. Another problem with Income tax is if you assume the ability to tax someones "income", then you are essentially stating that you don't have a right to your own labor (even if you are the only beneficiary). Wages should be looked at as a conversion and not a gain to ones wealth.
Isn't this why the government encourages the use of one's "person"?
From what I understand, use of your person binds you to statutes, and other regulations enforced by commercial courts.
The freeman movement seems to be largely based on this. I have tried to vet some of it out in court, but have never made it past the irate cop, trying to infringe on my right to travel. For some reason, it has never made it to a courtroom.
Great question, especially when so much .gov and FED gravy has gone to Wall Street, Banks, and the Corporatocracy.
Not to mention how many hundreds of millions to the Muslim Brotherhood so they can use our taxdollars and weapons to kill our children we keep sending over there for some reason; so we can bring some home in coffins (?). What a tragic waste of lives!
And the open door immigration policy that invites non-Americans to cross the border and pop out a baby, use the hospitals, the schools, the welfare/EBT handouts.
Let's not forget the Boston Bombing massacre nutcases were "refugees". Refugees from what, Russian justice that the U.S.A. seems to have forgotten all about?
Why DO we bother paying taxes?
We have to keep paying the taxes because it would inconvenience the denizens of Washinton DC if we stopped paying.
We have to keep the IRS in business ... how else can they spend $25,000,000 a year on valuable moral-building conferences. Besides laying off so may .gov workers would be too expensive
Great suggestion. Where's the petition and where do I sign?
send most of 'em home, institute a "Fair Tax", make them all bean counters and then reclassify them to a low(er) pay scale.
Oxymoron of the day: Fair Tax.
"...which group in society benefits the most from the issuance and monetization of this debt..."?
The principle beneficiary is the Ruling Class. The National Debt has roughly doubled since 2007 when the Democrat Party took over control of both Houses of Congress and it now amounts to over 100% of annual GDP. When confidence is lost in the USD due to these massive debt loads, Democrat Party obstructionism on reducing structural deficits and money-printing, interest rates will rebound from zero to well above their normal rates, bankrupting the U.S. Treasury.
Each of these elements (money-printing, massive increases in the National Debt, etc.) is part of a Cloward-Piven-style plan to impose totalitarianism on the U.S. Which group benefits? Statists, government employees and other parasites.
The big banks are just along for the ride. Look up "commensalism" and you'll get the idea. The U.S. Civil Society is the wildebeest. The Statists are the lions. The big banks are the jackals, picking up the scraps.
I was thinking along the same lines the other day. Why not? It would be the easiest way to simplify the unwieldy tax code. Just dump it in the river and forget about. It would be an easy political sale too. Everyone would be in favor of it, not realizing any more than they do now how excess Fed printing is effectively a tax already. So what? It's the easiest way to implement a true flat tax where every citizen pays an equal share for public services. Just let the government print all the money they want to spend and the private sector will take it from there. Think of all the money and time we would save on tax preparation, strategizing, filing, government banter over IRS targeting, etc. It's win, win, win for everyone, except IRS employees, tax attorneys, and H&R Block I suppose.
why do we pay taxes?
because we are in a republic that wants to maintain infrastructure for all and give a chance to those at the bottom of the ladder.
Solidarity is not a dirty word; but it is a question of balancing freedom to culivate one's own garden and spreading the manure around so that all fields can grow flowers.
"Why do we pay taxes? Because we are in a republic that wants to maintain infrastructure for all and give a chance to those at the bottom of the ladder."
Ummm...that's his POINT. If you want to maintain infrastructure for all, just get Ben to whip off a couple of trillion. and voila! New roads and bridges. If you want to give a chance to those at the bottom of the ladder, get Ben to whip off ANOTHER couple of trillion, and voila! The poor are rich. Why make people pay for anything if endless debt is not only okay, but the solution? Hope this helps...
Theft is not "solidarity"
Is that Imus in clown face?
Clown face
The IRS scandals combined with dictator authority given to the IRS in Obamacare are showing producers who pay America’s taxes that the legions of Obama voters, food stampers, etc., are on the receiving end of steadily climbing taxes.
The government needs the taxes, some argue, just to marshall discipline on the sheeple, keep them barefoot and down on the farm and in line while consistently letting them taste the whip of Leviathan.
But the taxes aren’t really needed when monetizing is an option.
It is a sobering thought that the government and TBTFs can operate, even at current level, without levying any taxes whatever, except for the fact that they want a redistribution of income and to keep alive Americans’ faith in the currency. As G. Edward Griffin said in 1994, “All it (the government) has to do is create the required money through the Federal Reserve System by monetizing its own bonds. In fact, most of the money it now spends is obtained that way.”
Griffin, in The Creature From Jekyll Island, wrote: “If the idea of eliminating the IRS sounds like good news, remember that the inflation that results from monetizing the debt is just as much a tax as any other, but, because it is hidden and so few Americans understand how it works, it is more politically popular than a tax that is out in the open.
“Inflation can be likened to a game of Monopoly in which the game’s banker has no limit to the amount of money he can distribute. With each throw of the dice he reaches under the table and brings up another stack of those paper tokens which all the players must use as money. If the banker is also one of the players –and in our real world that is exactly the case –obviously he is going to end up owning all the property. But, in the meantime, the increasing flood of money swirls out from the banker and engulfs the players. As the quantity of money becomes greater, the relative worth of each token becomes less, and the prices bid for the properties goes up. The game is called ‘monopoly’ for a reason. In the end, one person holds all the property and everyone else is bankrupt…”
"Reduce my taxes to zero and see how fast I go out and start spending some of that extra income."
Spend? Why should you even have to spend? Just make everything free. It's the Keynesian dream: Endless "prosperity" with no work and no pain...
And Robotics can show us the way to utopia. Of course, the owners of capital may have other plans for us:
"The result is paradise. Global warming is a problem of the past because computers have figured out how to generate limitless amounts of green energy and intelligent robots have tirelessly built the infrastructure to deliver it to our homes. No one needs to work anymore. Robots can do everything humans can do, and they do it uncomplainingly, 24 hours a day. Some things remain scarce—beachfront property in Malibu, original Rembrandts—but thanks to super-efficient use of natural resources and massive recycling, scarcity of ordinary consumer goods is a thing of the past. Our days are spent however we please, perhaps in study, perhaps playing video games. It's up to us."
http://www.motherjones.com/media/2013/05/robots-artificial-intelligence-jobs-automation
"And Robotics can show us the way to utopia. Of course, the owners of capital may have other plans for us:"
When robots are capable of doing anything, what would capital be needed for?
If robots will design, build and maintain robots at no monetary cost and robots will perform work at no monetary cost, what need will there be for money any more?
What is the ownership of capital worth, if it is zero? It will be like owning millions of Weimar marks in November, 1923. Might as well burn them in the fireplace.
Actually a post-scarcity economy is not that far off if nanotech / 3D assemblers and some other assorted technologies get off the ground.
Damn near EVERYTHING you need or even want can be replicated with plant matter, the occasional rock and energy. If it has a rare element that will be the only component of scracity that survives. CHON materials are some of the most common elements in the universe.
Paying taxes is a conditioning program where the productive workers of our society are conditioned to accept terrible treatment by the government.
Ya "conditioning program " or in terms the average 4th grade level reading American can understand, "f-train up our asses"
I've been saying this for years. It is the proof that they are scam artist. You know as well as I do that those in control want to run a f train right up our asses. Any other explanation for what is going on is bs, propaganda or both.
You want an economic recovery? Reduce my taxes to zero and see how fast I go out and start spending some of that extra income.
NOPE... Bush tried that by handing out $400 checks... what happened to that money?
Add some comas and zeros.
"You want an economic recovery? Reduce my taxes to zero and see how fast I go out and start spending some of that extra income"
But nothing occurs in a vacuum. If taxes are reduced to zero is government spending reduced to zero? If not, then the government has to borrow 100% of spending. If the government went out tomorrow and borrowed 5 trillion dollars and spent it in the next few months, wow, the "recovery" from 5 trillion dollars being poured into the economy by the government.
When Bush was President, there were no spending cuts to offset the tax cuts. Tax payers had more money to spend, but so did the government. It is a pretty neat trick. The growth came from debt. It wasn't tax cuts that worked, it was government and consumer (equity) debt expansion that worked.
All things being equal, if the government cuts your tax to zero, the government cuts its spending to zero. It is the same amount of money being spent, just in a different place.
Karl Denninger has made the point that subtracting out debt, there has been no GDP growth for over 30 years.
Still, if it's all the same to you (since it's just "the same amount of money being spent, just in a different place") I would prefer to do the spending. Thank you.