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27 Edward Snowden Quotes About U.S. Government Spying That Should Send A Chill Up Your Spine
Submitted by Michael Snyder via The Economic Collapse blog,
Would you be willing to give up what Edward Snowden has given up? He has given up his high paying job, his home, his girlfriend, his family, his future and his freedom just to expose the monolithic spy machinery that the U.S. government has been secretly building to the world. He says that he does not want to live in a world where there isn't any privacy. He says that he does not want to live in a world where everything that he says and does is recorded. Thanks to Snowden, we now know that the U.S. government has been spying on us to a degree that most people would have never even dared to imagine.
Up until now, the general public has known very little about the U.S. government spy grid that knows almost everything about us. But making this information public is going to cost Edward Snowden everything. Essentially, his previous life is now totally over. And if the U.S. government gets their hands on him, he will be very fortunate if he only has to spend the next several decades rotting in some horrible prison somewhere.
There is a reason why government whistleblowers are so rare. And most Americans are so apathetic that they wouldn't even give up watching their favorite television show for a single evening to do something good for society. Most Americans never even try to make a difference because they do not believe that it will benefit them personally. Meanwhile, our society continues to fall apart all around us. Hopefully the great sacrifice that Edward Snowden has made will not be in vain. Hopefully people will carefully consider what he has tried to share with the world.
The following are 27 quotes from Edward Snowden about U.S. government spying that should send a chill up your spine...
#1 "The majority of people in developed countries spend at least some time interacting with the Internet, and Governments are abusing that necessity in secret to extend their powers beyond what is necessary and appropriate."
#2 "...I believe that at this point in history, the greatest danger to our freedom and way of life comes from the reasonable fear of omniscient State powers kept in check by nothing more than policy documents."
#3 "The government has granted itself power it is not entitled to. There is no public oversight. The result is people like myself have the latitude to go further than they are allowed to."
#4 "...I can't in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building."
#5 "The NSA has built an infrastructure that allows it to intercept almost everything."
#6 "With this capability, the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested without targeting. If I wanted to see your e-mails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your e-mails, passwords, phone records, credit cards."
#7 "Any analyst at any time can target anyone. Any selector, anywhere... I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge, to even the President..."
#8 "To do that, the NSA specifically targets the communications of everyone. It ingests them by default. It collects them in its system and it filters them and it analyzes them and it measures them and it stores them for periods of time simply because that's the easiest, most efficient and most valuable way to achieve these ends. So while they may be intending to target someone associated with a foreign government, or someone that they suspect of terrorism, they are collecting YOUR communications to do so."
#9 "I believe that when [senator Ron] Wyden and [senator Mark] Udall asked about the scale of this, they [the NSA] said it did not have the tools to provide an answer. We do have the tools and I have maps showing where people have been scrutinized most. We collect more digital communications from America than we do from the Russians."
#10 "...they are intent on making every conversation and every form of behavior in the world known to them."
#11 "Even if you're not doing anything wrong, you're being watched and recorded. ...it's getting to the point where you don't have to have done anything wrong, you simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call, and then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with, and attack you on that basis, to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life."
#12 "Allowing the U.S. government to intimidate its people with threats of retaliation for revealing wrongdoing is contrary to the public interest."
#13 "Everyone everywhere now understands how bad things have gotten — and they’re talking about it. They have the power to decide for themselves whether they are willing to sacrifice their privacy to the surveillance state."
#14 "I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded. That is not something I am willing to support or live under."
#15 "I don't want to live in a world where there's no privacy, and therefore no room for intellectual exploration and creativity."
#16 "I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong."
#17 "I had been looking for leaders, but I realized that leadership is about being the first to act."
#18 "There are more important things than money. If I were motivated by money, I could have sold these documents to any number of countries and gotten very rich."
#19 "The great fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. [People] won't be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things... And in the months ahead, the years ahead, it's only going to get worse. [The NSA will] say that... because of the crisis, the dangers that we face in the world, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it will be turnkey tyranny."
#20 "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant."
#21 "You can't come up against the world's most powerful intelligence agencies and not accept the risk."
#22 "I know the media likes to personalize political debates, and I know the government will demonize me."
#23 "We have got a CIA station just up the road – the consulate here in Hong Kong – and I am sure they are going to be busy for the next week. And that is a concern I will live with for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be."
#24 "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions, and that the return of this information to the public marks my end."
#25 "There’s no saving me."
#26 "The only thing I fear is the harmful effects on my family, who I won't be able to help any more. That's what keeps me up at night."
#27 "I do not expect to see home again."
Would you make the same choice that Edward Snowden made? Most Americans would not. One CNN reporter says that he really admires Snowden because he has tried to get insiders to come forward with details about government spying for years, but none of them were ever willing to...
As a digital technology writer, I have had more than one former student and colleague tell me about digital switchers they have serviced through which calls and data are diverted to government servers or the big data algorithms they've written to be used on our e-mails by intelligence agencies. I always begged them to write about it or to let me do so while protecting their identities. They refused to come forward and believed my efforts to shield them would be futile. "I don't want to lose my security clearance. Or my freedom," one told me.
And if the U.S. government has anything to say about it, Snowden is most definitely going to pay for what he has done. In fact, according to the Daily Beast, a directorate known as "the Q Group" is already hunting Snowden down...
The people who began chasing Snowden work for the Associate Directorate for Security and Counterintelligence, according to former U.S. intelligence officers who spoke on condition of anonymity. The directorate, sometimes known as “the Q Group,” is continuing to track Snowden now that he’s outed himself as The Guardian’s source, according to the intelligence officers.
If Snowden is not already under the protection of some foreign government (such as China), it will just be a matter of time before U.S. government agents get him.
And how will they treat him once they find him? Well, one reporter overheard a group of U.S. intelligence officials talking about how Edward Snowden should be "disappeared". The following is from a Daily Mail article that was posted on Monday...
A group of intelligence officials were overheard yesterday discussing how the National Security Agency worker who leaked sensitive documents to a reporter last week should be 'disappeared.'
Foreign policy analyst and editor at large of The Atlantic, Steve Clemons, tweeted about the 'disturbing' conversation after listening in to four men who were sitting near him as he waited for a flight at Washington's Dulles airport.
'In Dulles UAL lounge listening to 4 US intel officials saying loudly leaker & reporter on #NSA stuff should be disappeared recorded a bit,' he tweeted at 8:42 a.m. on Saturday.
According to Clemons, the men had been attending an event hosted by the Intelligence and National Security Alliance.
As an American, I am deeply disturbed that the U.S. government is embarrassing itself in front of the rest of the world like this.
The fact that we are collecting trillions of pieces of information on people all over the planet is a massive embarrassment and the fact that our politicians are defending this practice now that it has been exposed is a massive embarrassment.
If the U.S. government continues to act like a Big Brother police state, then the rest of the world will eventually conclude that is exactly what we are. At that point we become the "bad guy" and we lose all credibility with the rest of the planet.
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and isreal's nuclear program
Thanx dood. I'll czech it out.
Then there was that little Vietnam thing. And that fact that your entire post is predicated on the idea that government can do something/anything for the 'working people'
Your post might make more sense if it contained a 'compared to what" as in, the Kennedy administration did many other positive things compared to giving the entire US population a root canal.
No US president was/is an angel. All government is theft, period.
edir: this is not the link i wanted, but can someone here post a nice history of money article that i saw here a couple of years ago..........with a richer history into the rothcilds and slavery.
http://www.xat.org/xat/moneyhistory.html
and lincoln and reagan, too, were shot for same reason, no?
I thought Reagan was shot in the first act of the rolling coup d'etat that installed a select fascist faction of the intelligence complex as defacto leadership of the USA.
Yes, he did it too. Executive order 11110 which created us banknotes backed by the silver then held by the us treasury to compete with (and eventually destroy) federal reserve notes. Johnson promptly reversed this order after they blew his head off.
Way off. Kennedy is not the hero you are looking for.
HE had the power to issue US notes. With that EO, he delegated it to the Treasury Secretary.
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=jfkmyth
Griffin breaks it down quite well.
pods
+1
#25
#17
Putin can protect him. Odds of Snowden reaching Russia are slim at best. No way the NSA / CIA will allow this guy to return to the public US court system alive.
Well, OK, Putin (and China) can protect him while they interrogate him. That is not good for US security.
US security is now officially the enemy of the free world. Anything not good for US security is a god-send. US security unless stopped and dismantled completely will destroy democracy on this planet for generations.
Just making sure we all understand the lay of the land at this point. Because from here forward the conversation needs to get real.
russia, not a friend of those who like to suck on things that they themselves have or of smelly diaper heads, is a friend of mine.
Are you attaching some sort of Guantanamo-esque negative connotation to "interrogate" or am I misreading what you wrote?
The long game of intelligence is hampered when you make yourself (or your State) an unattractive destination, and this Putin's field of professional expertise; I would think the Depardieu(+) package is on the table, and is available with basically no strings attached.
I highly doubt that Snowden revealed his identity before having a plan layed out and all his ducks in a row. TPTB are not omnipotent.
They don't know that.
Odds of Snowden reaching Russia are slim at best.
He only has to get to their embassy in whatever country he is in. Does "Assange" ring a bell for ya?
Hey kool-aide-dude - isn't this a contradiction
Putin can protect him. Odds of Snowden reaching Russia are slim at best.
Easy to get from HK to Mother Russia if Vlad's onboard. Yes/No?
But does he really need to go anywhere?? Are the Chinese really going to let their first reverse dissident get roughed up on their own turf???
I don't think so. I don't see it that way.
Maybe Snowden can create a virus that wreaks havoc on this invasion of privacy, if he lives long enough.
Spurs -9. Love em.
Thanks to Snowden, we now know that the U.S. government has been spying on us to a degree that most people would have never even dared to imagine.
Quoted from the author, should have said this:
Thanks to Snowden, we now know that the U.S. government has been spying on us to a degree that only fucking idiots who have no idea what the fuck is happening around them would have never even dared to imagine.
@BlueCollaredOne,
The sad reality is that "most people" ARE "fucking idiots who have no idea what the fuck is happening around them."
i never talk money on a cell phone and never launder my delicates in front of a computer screen
"laundering your delicates" Nice one.
And there are so many "fucking idiots". Our politicians simply fake being fucking idiots so we think they are one of us. Humans are so easy to manipulate. All of these leaks and disclosures are simply to reinforce the fears they have been indoctrinating in us for years. Its not much different than spousal or child abuse. They retain their control by convincing "us" that we need or deserve it. We be bad people and need to be watched.
Confirmation of well founded suspicions
BlueCollaredOne "Thanks to Snowden, we now know that the U.S. government has been spying on us to a degree that most people would have never even dared to imagine."
Comment:
You are joking, right? The billiion plus facility in Utah has been talked about for years now. It was well known that the intent of that Utah facility was to record or log all data from as many people it could. If it takes Snowden to wake you up, well then you are waking up to be shot, not waking up to save yourself.
Reread my comment, then bow your head in shame
sessinpo get real! Everyone knows that is the advanced Utah EBT card center.
Me Feds lovs me some welfare Utns. Where the truth will not be set free after millennium of sparrows chipping at the granite peaks.
Sessinpo Utah Data Center is well known by at best 1 per fucking cent of the population ... at best. You give your countrymen too much credit.
Gotta run now. House Bitches of Orange County is on!
This one give me hope that he is the real deal.
"The great fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. [People] won't be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things... And in the months ahead, the years ahead, it's only going to get worse. [The NSA will] say that... because of the crisis, the dangers that we face in the world, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it will be turnkey tyranny."
And as former NSA operative William Binney who was a senior NSA crypto-mathematician, and is the basis for the Wired article (which we guess makes him merely the latest whistleblower to step up: is America suddenly experiencing an ethical revulsion?), and quit his job only after he realized that the NSA is now openly trampling the constitution, says as he holds his thumb and forefinger close together. "We are, like, that far from a turnkey totalitarian state."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/%E2%80%9Cwe-are-far-turnkey-totalitarian-s...
Turn-key is already here. Dorner. Boston. Lager. Cheers.
Already the assault has begun. NPR (desperate to prop up Obama) ran a hit piece as to where he would get him money and strongly implied he'd sell secrets to "the bad guys". MSNBC has been attacking him hourly - everything from "breaking his promises" to "supporting Ron Paul" to "betraying his country." CNN had a nice little attack piece that asked if he was a traitor and if so, why now? Blame goes not to OBama and Company but "privatization" since a private firm got the contract to spy.
I refuse to look up to another person.
But I am very impressed by this guy.
Am I the only one who thinks it's suspicious that Snyder chose #27 quotes for this piece?
Why?
I dunno... It just seems arbitrary [& even with the foto caption]... #27 is an 'ILLUMINATI" favorite number...
You can probably relax on that one.
Ironic that your comment number is 3648127
francis_sawyer
Is that a Cheesepope-y kind of a number, Francis? ;-)
No ~ I realize that this crosses into "tinfoilhat-ville", but #27 is represented in a lot of shit [& dates]... I'll go & try to look some up...
~~~
One of the most famous is all the pop artists that were DEAD-ED at 27 like:
- Jim Morrison
- Jimi Hendrix
- Janis Joplin
- Kurt Cobain, etc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club
~~~
London 2012 Olympics [an 'Illuminati-Fest'] on the 27th
I'll fucking lay you odds... right now... That Kate Middleton gives birth on July 27...
I'll bet ya my two left feet.
you'll need to be a non dancing fucking millipede to take the wager odds...
Sandy Hook 27 deaths....
You may be right. I married my first wife when I was 27. God, it is a conspiracy of numbers!
Yeah but when a drone strike occurs 'only' 29 are killed at the wedding ceremony /snark
dictatus Papae had 27 articles, proclaiming theocracy ruled the christian world not Holy Emperor. It started a mighty inner conflict over three centuries or more.
http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/344dict.html
One night I know I had over 27 shots and forgot where I'd been and didn't know where I was when I can to. So yeah, it makes a lotta sense.
Some ZH'ers... from time to time... may have had a 'papae' on their 'dictatus' which caused an 'inner conflict' in their lives which felt like it lasted 'three centuries or more'
~~~
So I kno what you're saying...
~~~
Come on people... RELAX... I've already told you that as of a month ago... It's down to 'JOKES' on ZH...
The only person who could be critical in a medieval court was the court jester. So as long as he said "What a fucking idiot" with good delivery, during an awkward pause, after the King had maybe fumbled his wine glass, or called Japan China, etc then that wasn't considered a insult of the King.
I try to wait for the king to pass out stone cold drunk... Then I go to town on him...
Just want to say, it's kind of funny with Fanzoon trying to make Cheers happen here and the tag line from the TV show is "You want to go where everybody knows your name." Lot's of Irony there. ie. none of us go by our real names and on the other hand, NSA Prism, etc. sure wants to go "where everybody knows your name."
It's OK to coast a few rounds Francis. You're way ahead on points.
#28 I hear the Pacific Ocean is nice this time of year.
I hear it "Has no Memory"
~Andy Dufrene
It wasn't Snyder that chose to make 27 quotes - it's the author of the article that chose to present 27 quotes from Snyder.
- The following are 27 quotes from Edward Snowden
- Submitted by Michael Snyder
~~~
my [ABOVE] curiosity is from a cornucopia of possible ES quotes, why did the author choose '27' [not '10', not '15', not '20' ~ like just about everyone else might have done, you know, like the Billboard TOP 27 pop hits for 2013]... But don't bother answering that... It was more a curiosity...
My lateral point is that "27" is kind of a special number... [not for me, but for these Illuminati frat boys]... I can't remember exactly why, but I think it has to do with a couple things:
- 72 is actually supposed to represent the number of God I believe, so 72 reversed has symbolism [& of course, they both reduce to "9"]... Some expert could chime in here as I'm just going on memory...
- 27 = 3 cubed ['3' to the 3rd power]... & of course '33' is all over the place Masonic orders... [as in the highest level a Mason can attain, geometry of buildings, earth plane parallels (Right ORI?), & even 'locations', such as '33' Liberty to be the address of the NY Fed...
Again: I don't believe in any of this shit [BUT THEY DO]... So I just try to understand it [in a way that maybe I can stay out of the crossfire when these 'Raydens' start farting lightning bolts back & forth at each other]...
It's definitely a message ... but to whom, and of what? I've been noticing these 'numbered' plaques coming up every other day in ZH headings for weeks, but haven't made any connections from them...yet. Maybe ORI, or AEM, can help?
I don't think Snowden has harmed the NSA apparatus one tiny bit.
Knowing what it is doing provides zero tools with which to fight it or shut it down. Zero.
No Congress cannot shut it down. They cannot de-fund the NSA or any tiny part of it without the risk of de-funding the entire war on terror. It didn't have to be that way, but it is, and it is no accident that it is that way.
Thanks to Snowden we now know something. But it is like someone coming into our jail cell and telling us we will be shot at dawn. Yeah it's true. Can I do anything about it? Probably not.
This is not to be defeatist or to minimize the importance of the event. I'm saying that knowledge is not power if you have no access to tools and no leverage to apply them. We exist in a total police state. Get that part. We are very nearly powerless. I don't know what to do, and the Snowden confession does not help me know what to do, it only tells me how badly we all need to do something.
encrypt everything. use a vpn, don't use any social media. alias everywhere. use linux. harden your o.s. no cloud services. no posting on boards like thiis. don't say shit on the phone.use cash. do as little banking as possible. join no organization, etc........
police state bitchez....
Those measures might protect the privacy of individuals. Maybe.
They will do nothing to stop the NSA. Nothing.
And the NSA is just the pitbull for the political elites, who will use it however they want when the time comes. The sociopaths at the top of government will use the profiles built by the NSA to sweep up anyone who ever did anything even a little odd, for example using a VPN or not using credit cards or not having an installed phone line.
The NSA is a tool. A tool that can only be used for ill. The government funds it, encourages it, and ultimately someone in government will use it.
Them folks abilities far exceed encryption. They front run the encryption, read the information post encryption via frequency and resonance variabilities, Van Eck phreaking and the like, your keyboard and screens are useful tools in and of themselves... with your power grid's wires as the antenna.
None of this technology is in the least bit, new.
We must not be so smug that we think their efforts and capacities do not by far and away exceed our wildest dreams
In fact, Wired just had an article dealing with the entire plausibility and simplicity of defeating even the most rigorous encryption, FWIW.
If it's attached in any way to the electromagnetic ether, it is legible and open to those who wish access. Period.
And with 30k drones on the horizon they won't even have to come get me. I'll never know which ZH post might be my last.............
The first step is to win the Information War.
Just post facts, documents, opinions, that help spell out the Big Picture for people.
who would have thought "smoke signals" would be the answer, too bad about that genocide, maybe next time
But they promised......
Or.... tell them to suck a donkey and don't be afraid. Screw with them. Mock them. Fuck the NSA. Sharia. Manhattan bomb. Bring down the Golden Gate Bridge. Sharia. Jihad. take out LA. Martyrdom. sarin gas. ricin. Eat shit and die treasonous snooping bastards.
Congress should de-fund the entire "War on Terror". But they won't, 'cause they're rakin' in the bux from the MIC.
Need to hang 'em all from lampposts and hold new elections.
Nah, we need to defund CONgress.
" I don't know what to do, and the Snowden confession does not help me know what to do, it only tells me how badly we all need to do something."
We CAN do something. We can re-assert civilian control over our government. It will require that you stand up and take an interest in doing more than bemoan the problem. You might even have to sign a petition and vote for a ratification. But it CAN be fixed !!! This is how:
28th Amendment (The Constitutional Emergency Amendment)
Corporations are not persons and shall be granted only those rights and privileges that Congress deems necessary for the well-being of the People. Congress shall provide legislation defining the terms and conditions of corporate charters according to their purpose; which shall include, but are not limited to:
1, prohibitions against any corporation;
a, owning another corporation,
b, becoming economically indispensable or monopolistic, or
c, otherwise distorting the general economy;
2, prohibitions against any form of intervention in the affairs of government by means of;
a, congressional lobbying
b, electoral sponsorship or advocacy
c, educational sponsorship or publication
d, media news reporting
3, provisions for;
a, the auditing of standardized, current, and transparent account books
b, closing the FRB and the establishment of state-owned banks
c, civil and criminal penalties to be suffered by corporate executives et al for violation of the terms of a corporate charter.
Optional: (or possible 29th amendment)
The 16th Amendment to the United States Constitution is hereby repealed and Congress shall re-write the U.S. Code to reflect the changes embodied herein.
(While we're at it, we could also repeal the 17th amendment)
Fuck.
Listen. The problem stems from there being no civilian control of government. Corporations own government, and we will not see that change in our life times. We cannot pass an Amendment because no politician will propose one and no state house will vote on it. We cannot use the apparatus to defeat the apparatus.
We have no tools and no leverage with which to apply them if we did.
I am neither stupid nor passive. I simply cannot see any string of dots that can be connected leading to a solution to this utterly nightmarish scenario we are now mired in.
Ah, Clarity of Thought.
Man it sucks though, waking up to find you are living a nightmare instead of just imagining one. I totally understand why people do the three-little-monkeys thing and stick to the sports page. Confronting this steaming pile of radioactive crap is a quick way to drive yourself insane with grief.
Insane with grief.
Think about that one.
Well stated, in fact elegant.
Methinks this whole miasma will be having quite a deleterious effect upon real economic activity, diminution of entrepreneurial, animal spirits....
T'is quite a shame.
They've won, haven't they.... Those from whom we're supposed to have been protected.
They've won....
All they ever wanted was to be king.
Where's your crown king nothing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gSb2A4mXtg
"We cannot use the apparatus to defeat the apparatus."
~~~
This is true... Any response requires the application of asymmetrical warfare...
"We cannot use the apparatus to defeat the apparatus."
This is not true: it's logical nonsense. Asymmetric warfare might apply if law and logic fails, but it's not the preferred solution (unless you're a suicidal psychopath). You must be very young. And not well educated. But smart; so keep at it and read a little political science - starting with The Republic.
I know the Insane with Grief part all too well. The perils of waking up.
But, when drinking myself to death didn't take, I went for happiness instead.
no, not the hokey kind or twelve steps, but it helps to laugh. Kinda like the grandma in Mars Attacks when they blew up congress.
Real happiness (and spending less time metabolizing booze) is anti-fear, fights the grief bar-none.
I know many things will get "worse" in my time left, but I also know I would do the Ed Snowden, if in a similar spot.
They don't trust Replicants with secrets, tho..
been there already, daughter was murdered 16 years ago with no justice even though we know who did it.
If you're going to go at this it has to be;
1. low fi
2. massive in scale
3. non violent
= shut the whole thing down, 300 million go dark, a week.....month, TOTAL silence, nothing moves
then send one man to CONgress and tell them to pack their things, the entire .gov is FIRED. Its reset time.
Start over state by state. Washington DC, Wall Street no longer exist.
SHUT IT DOWN
low fi= nothing moves
massive = everybody
non violent = total silence
all you need is 1000 calories /day and water, everybody helps everybody to outlast the .gov
if you can't use the apparatus to change the apparatus you just have to UNPLUG the apparatus and wait til it withers and dies
#.govurfired
"I simply cannot see any string of dots that can be connected leading to a solution to this utterly nightmarish scenario we are now mired in."
Secession.
Our problems are FEDERAL. Foreign policy, MIC, taxation, etc. - these are all Federal-level issues.
If even a few key states secede, it's over for the Feds... the whole thing crumbles. And don't believe those mental midgets that claim "states can't secede" - that's bullshit. States need only to exercise the sovereignty that is rightfully theirs.
You're looking for a solution? Simply undermine/dismantle/de-authorize the FEDERAL-level of government. This can be achieved (peacefully, if done right) via secession. Our problems have solutions - we simply need to think outside of the paradigm within which we've been born/trapped...
Secession.
Okay fine.
Secession.
Now maybe we have a dot.
That sure worked out well last time around...
One of the all time massive expansions of federal power at the expense of states rights...
My actual factual expectation would probably be secession by economic collapse. Where states fall off the Federal teat and global economy and become lost, one at a time, in the meantime being forced to figure out a new way of living. Then the federal government simply dies of starvation.
It's a thought-experiment that comes up on the pages here once in a while -- the return to the Middle Ages. Which if it happens turn out not to have been the middle of anything.
Like with the Euro states, our united states will never fall off the teat because as they go broke they will have little option but to take the printed money from the feds, fake as it may be, to pay their bills, much as we will continue to accept the fiat for the same reasons. The one advantage some of our states have is they still have natural resources to claim that would subsidize a possible sovereign currency. The broke ass states that have nothing but promises to bank on will be attached at the hip to any and all fed policies, Obamacare on down. Corruption is not based on the denial of right from wrong but simply the acceptance that wrong pays and right doesn't. Sometimes I wonder about Texas, but the last five years have made me feel lucky, even thought my personal fortunes have suffered. I still have small moments of hope of the kind I doubt anyone from Illinois has.
Bingo.
It won't be the weaklings that fall away from the Federal teat, it will be the strongest States (cough*Texas*cough) that step away voluntarily... in order to survive. Why would any well-run State would allow itself to be drained like a helpless victim? They won't. And neither will Germany/northern europe... they'll be the ones that leave the EU, not the PIIGS.
We have to keep our eye on the ball... the Federal level of government is the cancer. Starve it. Abandon it.
You know what, life in Illinois has been very fine for a long time now. We have good services, good neighbors, and a great quality of life overall. When the dollar collapse/default comes, its going to be pretty bad everywhere for awhile, even Texas. At that point maybe I'll link up with "Simon Black" in Gstaad or Punta Del Este. In the meantime, will keep working on checking items off the personal bucket list and continue to enjoy life in the eye of the hurricane for as long as it lasts.
Secession? Yes...I own property in Texas, but I don't have a lot of hope that the likes of Rick Perry or the dreck in Austin actually have the will and spine to secede. Perry has actually attended the Bilderberg confab.
I'm thinking of secession on a more basic level: Personal secession. In their book The Sovereign Individual, Rees-Mogg and Davidson made it sound like you needed vast personal wealth to stand on your own. You don't. You just have to be willing to take responsibility for yourself. There are countless ways to detach yourself from the matrix.
In some ways it's actually easier--I know from personal experience--to secede from the corrupt system if you have little in the way of personal wealth and assets. You're not an attractive target when you have nothing they want, beyond the ability to skim off the top of your personal labor and the value you add to the economy. You just live a low-consumption lifestyle, producing in such a way that you keep most of the value of what you produce. Consumption and materialism generate taxes, and taxes feed the monster.
"A man is wealthy in proportion to the things he can afford to leave alone." I think it was Thoreau who said that, and I would add "A man is free in proportion to the protections he does not require."
It's not a stretch to expect that Perry's successor in TX could be more principled, or perhaps more creative/wise than RP. Forget the current actors and stage... what we are enduring now is the final tour of a failing, starving theater troupe... merely a prelude to the real show further down the road.
BTW, Texas has already laid alot of groundwork for secession. Somebody down there has their shit in a pile. Some other western states have their eye on the ball, too.
I believe the eastern establishment and beltway types have become utterly complacent and are blinded by their own arrogance. They can't comprehend how perceptions, attitudes and motivations might be different - radically different - in other areas of the US. Based on my own travels/observations, much of the west has one foot out the door already and there are pockets of political activism the midwest, south, and northeast that could grow in significance w/ just a bit of fertilizer (and Washington DC is providing plenty of revolutionary fertilizer these days).
RE: personal secession... seems to me that this already a widespread movement. Homeschooling is exploding in popularity. Barter and localizaton are not fringe phenomena anymore. We have likely passed the peak of 'conspicious consumption', whether by choice or circumstance... doesn't really matter. Habits and perceptions are now changing quickly and radically relative to the status quo coma we've suffered these 40-50 years, imo.
+1 hound dog for cheering up the depressed @cougar and +1 for beating me too it.
My screen name 'splains where I stand on all this bullshit. And as Mike Church likes to say (and I think he sells a t-shirt or something that also says this): If at first you don't secede, try, try again.
***Our problems are FEDERAL***
The thing you're missing is that the federal government is only a tool. It is a tool just as the state and local government are for the multi-national corporations and their oligarch owners. If you think succession will save you from their power you are sadly mistaken. These corporations are so interwoven with governments they are practically one. Booz Alan and the NSA is a perfect example. No, the power of the large corporations must be reined in and the must be once again separated from government.
Well said, Cougar, "We cannot use the apparatus to defeat the apparatus".
pull the plug on the apparatus
asymmetrical warfare
with a side of low fi
There's a reason you didn't learn this in public school and the MSM will come out in full force to tell you it's impossible, but this is how it's supposed to work when and if the US government gets out of control. The only reason that it won't work however is that people like you have been intellectually browbeaten to believe it can't be done. THERE IS NO OTHER OBSTRUCTION. Our Founders wrote this Article for a reason.; THE CURRENT SITUATION IS WHY IT EXISTS. This is it ! It's up to us to assert our RIGHT to to it ! The only thing preventing it is YOU!! If revolution is inevitable let's do it right! With the LAW on our side ! It's never been done, true. But we never had Americans defecting to China or Russia for honoring the Constitution before either. Cynicism is easy. Patriotism requires critical thinking and a sense of responsibility. Ask yourself: "Am I a Constitutionalist or a Corporatist?" That's the real question. Are you willing to speak up for the Constitution and defend it?
ARTICLE FIVE: "The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate."
ARTICLE FIVE: "The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments ..."
Dot dot dot. You can stop reading right there. Whatever follows belongs in a parallel universe where some really bad deals were never allowed to happen.
I know you are trying to be helpful and make a point. It's a great point and it should give us some hope, and perhaps make us proud to be Americans who have the actual power to make those kinds of sweeping changes.
But we are not living in that kind of universe. In this universe -- the one where we struggle to come to terms with something that reads like a distopian novel -- some stupid, greedy fucks gave away our hard-won power to determine our own destiny to some other fucks who were more greedy and not nearly so stupid.
So that idea, it's just not going to fly. We don't get to put our life ships upon that sea. We never see that beautiful land.
That bat never gets out of this Hell.
I hope I'm wrong. I fear I am not. Because I might not be wrong I start looking for other dots to connect. Not seeing too many of them right now. I don't know what to do.
And maybe that there is the answer.
Because when you cannot do anything you give up on something that did have importance at one time.
And if we all give up, I wonder if we will have suddenly won anyway.
I thought a "critical thinker"might have kept on reading to the part that says: " or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States" (many of those being the ones that are already trying to separate themselves from the Union). (You gots to find those dots!)
If you've already given up, what's the point; you'll find another reason not to act. Just realize, for your own self-awareness, YOU talk like one of those that are the PROBLEM and I'd not be surprised if you were, in fact, a Corporatist, either paid or voluntary.
If I'm wrong: you could research Article Five. You won't find much because it's never been done and very few have seen the path to its implementation. We'll have to figure this out for ourselves. (Maybe pitchforks, torches, and signed petitions on the local courthouse lawn) Are you capable of independent thought? As an inventor, I've made a living from thinking new thoughts. That might be of more help in our current predicament. Neither of us can do it alone, though, so let's at least kick the idea around. It beats kicking the can down the road. The kids don't seem to be getting any more educated these days.
You give up on Article 5 a bit too easily ... as stated above,
All politics is local- and large scale change must begin locally (within an individual's consciousness)
There has already been one significant rescission of State data-warehousing authority in recent decades, but the issue needs to be examined by more States, repeatedly and more frequently, as technology advances more rapidly.
The severe lessons of experience will, I doubt not, be sufficient to prevent Congress from again chartering such a monopoly, even if the Constitution did not present an insuperable objection to it. But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government. Andrew Jackson, 4 March 1837
There is only one thing that can kill the beast. When you stop spending money you starve it. It slowly loses its power. I know it's impossible to stop spending entirely but can you imagine if every American just cut back to the bare essentials like food and gas.
The fucking show would be over just like that and then we could pick up all the pieces.
- we will not see that change in our life times.
Sorry. No one knows this. Could die any time.
@decentralized
Never happen. Look who's in power now. Get real.
what? the obamination that causes desolation?
If I was a tyrant, I'd want all my slaves to be just like you. Really.
so, are "unions" people? i, and people whose feet i can smell, work for corps...me smell you commie monkey feet all over your above message.
You sure sound like a defeatist. We all know what we have to do and we will do what we have to do when the time comes, even you. Look deep inside and find some courage. If you're a human being it's in there somewhere.
That is not the same thing. I know you think it is the same thing as knowing what to do, but it's not. I have made a career of critical thinking and I do it really really well, and I know what I don't know -- and at this point I do not know what to do and it worries me a lot.
That is what is truely maddening. An equation with a hundred variables and more being added daily. It is an artificial world with real concequences.
This is why the words Unalienable Rights appear as they do.
Variables become known constants this way.
"I have made a career of critical thinking and I do it really really well, and I know what I don't know -- and at this point I do not know what to do and it worries me a lot."
I'll call bullshit on that: "critical thinking" is not a career; it's a learned skill and it evolves as you execise it.
I just showed you a solution and you haven't touched on it's substance. Are you so convinced that the American People can't overcome MSM divisiveness? Are you so sure the internet isn't changing the political landscape as we speak? Poles say they're not believing the talking heads anymore. They also say the pipples don't believe their government anymore. Doesn't that suggest the folks out there are ready to hear some real solutions from real people with nothing but the future of our sons and daughters in mind? Do you think the average schlub can't understand the corporate corruption of Washington? I think they can. I think you are one of the few who could help explain it to them - IF YOU CHOSE TO. There's a lot you could do. But if you prefer being part of the problem, ............that's a choice you can also make. Try taking it one step at a time, the rest will follow ; it's what they do.
What to do: take up beekeeping.
The largest beekeeper in the country lost roughly 60% of his hives this year. He (Brett Adee) didn't get to be the biggest because of some TBTF legislation. He and his family got there because they were some of the best at what they do. Across the US, we beekeepers lost about 40% of our hives. About 1/3 of the food supply relies on bees for pollination.
So put all of this socio-political crap into context. The way it's going, you're going to start seeing starvation before you see some sort of orwellian dystopia.
So you're a critical thinker, huh? Why don't you apply it to something that will feed you and others rather than worry you to death.
I am waiting to see where he surfaces.
My hope is that he will materialize here in the U.S..
If he surfaces in China or Russia it would piss me off.
Revealing this program is one thing. Giving away the salient details including sources and methods to a foreign government (ala Bwadley Manning) is a different matter entirely.
How is one criminal gang different than another?
Don't you get it? These are our criminal gang!
You mean this is the criminal gang most likely to initiate force against me? When you look at it that way...
USA! USA! usa!
*waves big red, white and blue stripey thingy*
/s
Ability to do harm.
oh ya let's all shed a tear for COG--- Ability to do harm??? dumb ass
I think Iceland should send a team of beauties to smuggle him back to asylum.
I first read that as 'snuggle' him back to asylum.
Actually, he'd probably be very... useful... to the Chinese or Russians.
He might be better off if the US did get hold of him before they do.... at least, 'we' already know all the secrets he does, and won't feel the need to chisel more out of him, at any cost (to him).
I don't think the US has had any secrets since the Jonathan Pollard affair. We will never know the full extent of the damage Pollard did to the national security of the US in the service of his Israeli spymasters.
I'm neutral on this Snowden character. I'd prefer if he had turned the information over to Ron Paul instead of leaking it to the press and hiding out in China. If Ron Paul wasn't up to the task or taking the heat, it would be useful to know that as well.
"Truth is treason in the Empire of Lies" -Ron Paul, from Revolution: A Manifesto
Son, that is no case of kid gloves. The man would bring it.
I'd like to think so. On the other hand, I don't trust his son at all.
Agreed.
Yes, both Putin and China would love to interrogate Snowden.
the only thing Manning revealed that the government is truly pissed about is the massacre from the helicopter that killed the Reuters photographer and the seriously wounded the kids in the van. The rest of the stuff is just a distraction (which seems to have worked on you).
As far as where Snowden will finally surface...I'd guess Iceland or somewhere in South America...but who knows, he may take the Assata Shakur rout and head to Cuba.
When Americans have to seek political asylum in other nations for exposing crimes by the US government against the American people, you know the empire has entered into it's last days. The experiment is over, the patient is dead.
You must be young, and naive.
You also come across as a fool.
Manning's action have resulted in lives being lost and many many others put in danger.
The breadth and depth of the information he revealed to foreign governments is staggering.
wind you are; divine, not so sure.
"lives being lost"?? name two-----dumb ass
Manning's action have resulted in lives being lost and many many others put in danger.
If whistleblowers like these lead to the electorate forcing a volutary contraction of the US empire, it will save countless more lives.
Anyone signing up to work for the US government is - knowingly or not - signing up to help destroy America.
These 'many many' others being put in danger - what are they doing, and where, exactly? Oh, yeah, I forgot, they're helping 'our' MIC make a metaphorical killing, by going off overseas and making literal killings.
Your 'my country, right or wrong' bullshit is the biggest danger we face as a nation, not the acts of true patriots like Manning and Edwards.
Secrets have no good purpose.
How many lives have been lost as a result of Bush's or Obama's actions?
The Divine Wind Blows Bull Shit!
Divine Wind seems to be a proxy for the 3LtRPeepS... no? Or does he drink from the government Kool-Aid® fountain?
So when a private puts peoples lives at risk and they die, he is prosecuted?
Yet when President and Sec. of State leave Abassador behind and other Americans, it is just time to move on?
What does foreign government mean to you? We have no govrenment more foreign than the one in DC/NYC.
From #11: "...and then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with, and attack you on that basis, to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life."
Exactly; and this is how it will be used in the future to silence dissent, the Press - anyone not willing to march to or salute the new Fascism.
Snowden should change his name to John Hancock.
Yup, no more black midget tranny porn for me. Wouldn't want that used against me in the future.
Too late. Now just behave yourself or you will not have a future /Agent Smith
It's all laid out here in lurid and comprehensive detail. Branfman is an old friend and a straight shooter. He gets it totally right: http://www.alternet.org/print/news-amp-politics/executive-branch-threate...
some key excerpts:
"Under Mr. Obama, America is still far from being a classic police-state of course. But no President has done more to create the infrastructure for a possible future police-state.
...powerful Executive Branch officials...salaries, promotions, agency budgets and future well-paying private sector jobs depend upon perpetual war, at home and abroad.... Its policies are turning hundreds of millions of Muslims against the U.S., including countless potential suicide bombers, as it creates far more enemies than it kills.
...While convincing its own people that its policies are meant to support “freedom” and “democracy” around the world, its practice has often been exactly the opposite. It has installed and/or supported dozens of brutal, police-state regimes and paramilitary forces in every corner of the globe which are the very antithesis of democracy
...So deep is the unconscious need to be protected that the words "national security" have acquired a near-mystical power that overwhelms the undeniable factual evidence that U.S. Executive Branch leaders are endangering not protecting Americans"
Its the ultimate connect the dots machine. Connect them whatever way they want. They can even add data and historical observations at future dates and then re-run their analysis to discover new *bad* people. Dissent won't have to be silenced, it won't even exist.
Imagine a date in the not to distant future where Amerika get's dragged (f-flagged) into a war we don't believe in. Next they draft our kids. Depressing.
#23 thru #27 are so incredibly sad. The country I grew up in is dead.
Don't let it be sad. The fact that this guy did what he did means this country is in fact not dead.
The fact that he is a Carolina boy gives me hope that he's the real deal.
lets hope so. I wonder if he's listening to ol' James right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LFqWIKayIE
Thanks. My ears are bleeding.