This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

"Eminent Domain" Back On Table Following Fed's Latest Bailout Proposal

Tyler Durden's picture


We first discussed the possibility of state and local governments using eminent domain to 'save us' from further housing issues a year ago but now the NY Fed has gone one step further with an academic-based justification for why this process is not a "zero-sum-game" and will render all stakeholders better off. We can hear echoes of "trust us" in this commentary as the authors explain how multiple valuation methods will be used to ascertain "fair-value" - which has always worked so well in the past -  and that we have "little to fear" from the  resultant long-term contraction in liquidity or credit as bubbles can only inflate during times of easy credit availability (and that will never happen!)

 Paying for all this? Don't worry - resources to fund purchases of loans/liens can be raised from public, private sources or a combination of the two.

It seems to us that MBS holders will not be happy, consumers hurt as mortgage costs would rise (this 'risk' has to be priced in), and taxpayers unhappy as this is yet another transfer payment scheme to bailout underwater loans.

Oh and if that didn't worry you - remember back just a few short hours ago when we discussed the French socialist government's efforts at 'helping'!!

Some headlines from the report that caught our eye (via Bloomberg):

Underwater homeowners therefore are not to blame for current situation


Moral hazard can be prevented as it is “easy to formulate” criteria that doesn’t encourage strategic defaults


“Little need to fear” resultant long-term contraction in liquidity or credit as bubbles can only inflate during times of easy credit availability; we want “credit-caution” going forward


Eminent domain proceedings are not “zero sum game” and will render all stakeholders better off


Political authorities can use eminent domain to seize second-liens, too, “if need be”; can be used to “bring recalcitrant” creditors to the table


Via The NY Fed:

With more than 11 million homes still “underwater,” the mortgage debt overhang caused by the housing bubble remains an impediment to economic growth and a burden on communities across the country.  One possible solution to this problem is for state and municipal governments to use their eminent domain authority to purchase and restructure underwater mortgages.  This novel solution is proposed in a new report from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.


Many analysts agree that principal reductions are the best way to assist underwater homeowners—those who owe more on their mortgages than their houses are worth.  Such write-downs can be difficult to achieve, however, when the underlying mortgages are securitized and held by private-label securitization trusts.  Specifically, such loans are subject to pooling and servicing agreements that require collective action by a large majority of security holders before a loan can be modified.  As a result, carrying out write-downs is challenging and sometimes impossible.


In “Paying Paul and Robbing No One: An Eminent Domain Solution for Underwater Mortgage Debt,” author Robert Hockett argues that one possible way to sidestep this problem is by having governments buy and restructure underwater mortgages.  By utilizing their eminent domain authority, state and municipal governments could bypass the coordination problems posed by the pooling and servicing agreements.  They could then reduce the principal on underwater loans, lowering the amount owed by borrowers and thereby reducing the risk of default.




- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:06 | 3648814 grunk
grunk's picture

Unless you get valuation fights. Then you need to factor in attorney fees, expert witness and court delays.

It's my understanding that there are two types of valuations: arms-length transactions and distressed sales (foreclosures). 

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:09 | 3648842 pitz
pitz's picture

Only in the minds of Realtors.  The real world uses the lower of the two, ie: if a foreclosure can be purchased for less than a non-foreclosure, then the true market price is that of the foreclosure.  Trying to pretend there's two markets, or a bifurcated market, is part of what created the big problem in the first place. 

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:20 | 3648882 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

Check out the Zillow valuations versus the list prices for house. The valuations are about 20-30% less for most locations. So I talked to my ol' buddy realtor who said that's true. She said the market has slowed alot with the higher mortgage rate and the actual final sales are about 25-30% less then the list price/asking price (which matches Zillows valuation prices).

Even in "hot areas" such as San Clemente (where my uncle lives) and Sugar Land Texas (where my sister lives) actual sales of houses are abotu 20-30% lower they both said.


People have soured on the overpriced housing market at this point...frustration...loss of interest...job insecurity/losses...and so on are part of it. I'm not sure how much more the Fed can do to fight market forces.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:23 | 3648891 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

The Fed is blinded by their hubris.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:29 | 3648909 asteroids
asteroids's picture

Fear not, the FED and other morons will be blinded by bullets soon enough if they pull stunts like this. I'm amazed that Greeks and Cypriots haven't taken to real violence.


Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:35 | 3648930 HulkHogan
HulkHogan's picture

If they are watching the Turks, maybe they'll soon follow suit.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:43 | 3648956 SMG
SMG's picture

Can we start hanging traitors in the US soon?  I'm getting kind of impatient.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 00:10 | 3649159 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Which ones are the traitors? I have heard conflicting opinions. 

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 10:53 | 3650032 de3de8
de3de8's picture

One thing for sure, there are a lot of them.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:45 | 3648961 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

The turks did cut right to the chase. A few months ago Turkey was being touted as the next great nation to do business in.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:45 | 3648966 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

They were just upgraded to investment grade lol.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:56 | 3648997 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

I should have known when it was the blowhards on CNBC doing the touting.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:23 | 3649079 SemperFord
SemperFord's picture

For a second there I thought you were implying Simon Black said Turkey was next nation to invest in...

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 00:14 | 3649164 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

I think he's over there in Whatsis Square right now, looking for young nubile Turks to 'invest' in...

Stay tuned for the report here on ZH.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 00:58 | 3649217 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Funny how that worked.  Install one of Stasi O's fellow islamist puppets and hope the locals did not notice. 

Went from the best advanced emerging market to another hell hole with very pissed off citizens in a few months.  Those people have a lot of guts like the Egyptians.  They don't like O's islamist puppet pals.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:27 | 3648906 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Try using the sales price of foreclosures to get a reduced valuation for real estate purposes at the tax assessor's office- the assholes look at you like you asked for their first-born. A lot of the reason the govt is forcing the banks to keep these foreclosures off the market is so the state/muni property tax base does not totally collapse.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:33 | 3648924 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

spot on otto.  they need us top 20 percenters to milk and to continue their fucking game until nothing is left....

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 00:18 | 3649174 glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

where do these crazy people come from that propose this crap? Did someone leave a door unlocked at Belvue?

this is just getting crazy....and again, for people who didn't borrow more than they should have and live beyond their means there's, it's not remotely equitable.

this sucks....these asses can suck my wang

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:16 | 3649233 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Like I tell my wife- we'd be better off running up debt and living high on the hog on borrowed $- but I just can't bring myself to do it.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:06 | 3649446 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Likewise. These paperpushers can't find any more suckers or more fast enough to keep the paper games going. Fuck em. Unfortunately, the state governments seem to always be ready to step in (depending on what state you live in).

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 11:41 | 3650220 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Central planning used to fix* the disasters caused by central planning.




*fix = create more disasters

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:04 | 3649223 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Local property tax assessors office does not want to cut your taxes because it might harm their golden pension at age 45 so they can get rehired the next day to double dip.

They treat the citizens like mobsters treated brokers in boiler rooms when the sucker customers wants to sell their crap penny stocks. The mobsters beat the brokers up.  "No sales!" "Yes Guido."

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:14 | 3649231 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Freddie-I saw a new movie you might like to see-"White House Down"- Hollywood even put that racist Jamie Foxx in as our nee-groe prez.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:21 | 3649239 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

That's why Detroit is beoke: greed, incompetence, corruption, entitlement. Let 'em bankrupt and start fresh - just like GM. Fuck the City Hall parasites.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:39 | 3649504 ncdirtdigger
ncdirtdigger's picture

'just like GM'? What kind of dumbass statement is that? Do you have any clue as to how govco screwed GMs creditors so that the same dumbasses who couldn't assemble a cardboard box could keep their union jobs (along with their demorat party contributions)?

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 10:21 | 3649915 screw face
screw face's picture




Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:14 | 3648859 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

we must nationalize all real estate.

and we must do so *now*.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:41 | 3648947 Melin
Melin's picture

Seems to be the goal.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 00:50 | 3649207 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I'm happy to let Obama nationalize my inner city sec.8 prop's, They can deal with the delinquency (on10-20% of their rent portion) and attitude/entitlement on top of all that.

They're guaranteed to vote Dem -- as if they don't already.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 03:33 | 3649325 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

But they are not proposing to nationalize distressed real-estate, they are proposing bailing out the banks (again) with debt serf kicker to make the banker bailout more palatable to their minions.  The banks will take tax write-offs at taxpayer expense and the homeowners will receive write-downs at taxpayer expense, and there will be NO PUBLIC BENEFIT.  

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 11:50 | 3650251 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Bingo!  How are they going to pay for this?  Uh...maybe taxes on the productive class.

All I saw in this article was bail out....blah blah blah...bail out.  

I'm not under water in my house but I'll get to pay for my neighbor who decided to buy at the top.  Choices no longer have consequences, unless they're good choices.

Sounds fair.  

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:54 | 3649536 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

got to pay off those loans to the FedRes somehow

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:08 | 3649449 boooyaaaah
boooyaaaah's picture

Could this have been the long term plan?

Subprime. variable interest rate. Artificially low interest rate. Nothing down . No proof of income. Mutiple property loans. 

All this combined with GSach soliciting loans to slice and dice and resell. To the world. All under the watchful eye of Frannie and Freddy. And the great and all powerful Oz err

I mean all powerful FED. Who's function other than insuring full employment and low inflation is the regulation of banksters.

Could the suprise surprise final solution of eminent domain and government ownership of private poperty have been the motivation for all of this bs

I mean really is writing a loan that has a reasonable chance of being paid back. Is this new? Is this rocket science? Hasnt this been done since at least the Time of Jimmy Stewart and Pottersville?

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 11:41 | 3650219 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

"Could this have been the long term plan?"

I'm looking at PE firms gobbling up distressed RE to rent, and I'm looking at the Fed buying up pretty much all available MBS, and I'm seeing where private ownership is already being massively consolidated into the oligharchy.  I see another housing crash coming, they swoop in to "help distressed homeowners", grab another large chunk of RE, and continue the game.  

Given that growth is dead, what is there left to do other than cannibalize wealth held by the plebs?

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 11:49 | 3650248 PTR
PTR's picture

Funny- my 30yr was with Chase, 3 months later, I got notice that Chase sold it to Fannie Mae (but will continue to process the payments and servicing -of course-.) To add to it, we were 20% down, too.


Phuck me.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:04 | 3648816 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Fuck loans.

Free shit for everyone is fair.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 05:59 | 3649394 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Get your free doom.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:01 | 3649442 Meme Iamfurst
Meme Iamfurst's picture



So the white area means NO LOAN is deliquent?  Looks like the DC area is doing just fine.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:36 | 3649498 Esso
Esso's picture

I just kinda figered the white areas were already federal property.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 09:08 | 3649680 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

A lot of the white areas are Native American tribal lands. Not all, but quite a bit. No mortgages on Tribal Lands? Interesting that the entire state of South Dakota apparently has zero.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:05 | 3648819 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Oh, Jesus.  I don't know what to say about this.  What a clusterfuck.

Fuck Ben Bernanke is all I can come up with in my weakened state.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:31 | 3648918 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

whomever junked you is an ass whipe...

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:41 | 3648948 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Spitballs against a battleship, my friend.  No impact at all.

A little trick I learned from the BLS:  Just don't count the down arrows.


Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:05 | 3648820 Mr. Magoo
Mr. Magoo's picture

WOW, that map looks eerily similar to the agenda 21 map. Any connection to the Govt takeover of all mortgages??? nah that's just a conspiracy theory

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:04 | 3649222 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Not to be difficult, but to get understanding...

You're opposed to the breeding parasites being subsidized, but also from being... filtered out of the gene pool?

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:06 | 3648825 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Looking at that chart I finally found something good about Long Island.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:53 | 3648987 whoopsing
whoopsing's picture

Its not so bad Fonz, lots of good people and good places. Dont play the keeping up with the jones game,it'll make you old fast

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:58 | 3649001 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

you have been on here longer than I have. It's nice to meet you.


Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:46 | 3649124 whoopsing
whoopsing's picture

Same here Fonz , I'm glad you are around, I like your posts, you offer much insight

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:51 | 3649130 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Love is in the air.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 03:11 | 3649318 Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas's picture

Otto I can sing the Panzerleid, and I would welcome Fonz.


Wed, 06/12/2013 - 09:15 | 3649706 toadold
toadold's picture

"Otto? oh yes I knew Otto used to do business with him in Spain when I went there. Charming fellow, had a lot of interesting stories."

"We never got into why the Mossad never went after him though. I have my suspicions."

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:07 | 3648831 dryam
dryam's picture

Time to start the expatriation process.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:10 | 3649229 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

To the blue and white zones, if you just can't leave your brothers' or sisters' behind.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:07 | 3648832 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

This suggests that they know the housing bubble reblow isn't going to work long-term.  Could be viewed as a major heads-up to any ZH readers who invested in real estate to get some return.  

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:38 | 3648940 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

I know, I know.  I'm getting my Mom's old house on the market as fast as I can.  The fucking new fridge showed up with a huge dent in the side and the carpet installers are going to be on-site a week late.  I'm going as fast as I can, goddamit! 

Please, lord, please.  Just another month or two and I'm out.  Don't let the sky fall before then!


Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:48 | 3648971 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Good luck to you- when the last housing bubble went pop it was a matter of hours if you got the contract signed and the house sold or if you were left holding the bag.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:07 | 3648833 pitz
pitz's picture

Say goodbye to any new mortgage lending, or even people depositing cash in US banks.

The credit system only works if, at some point in time, the creditors not only get the upper hand, but actually reap the enjoyment of having the upper hand. 

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:16 | 3648865 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Why do you say that about people no longer depositing $ in the bank? Although the $85 billion a month from the Bernank is obviously not enough.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:22 | 3648889 pitz
pitz's picture

That'll be $85B/month (+ leverage) into gold soon enough. 

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:13 | 3648853 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Now that's a map you'll never see on CNBC or the NAR's website. Bring back debtor's prison- will also help unemployment with hiring of prison guards.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:13 | 3648854 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Wow. Just wow.

Like a lot of other people, I am absolutely astonished to see what has happened to the nation I love(d) over the past 10 years or so. Astonished that it has gotten so bad so fast.

I thought that there were checks and balances. Boy was I ever fuckin wrong.

Seriousy it's getting crazy. And it is only getting worse - by the day.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:20 | 3648881 Mr. Magoo
Mr. Magoo's picture

Thats what happens when the criminals are in charge

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:35 | 3648932 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Hey, McGoo. How's Japanese vol treatin' ya?

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:55 | 3648993 Mr. Magoo
Mr. Magoo's picture

I will let you know after i check with my house-servant Charlie

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:47 | 3649127 Blano
Blano's picture

Was thinking the same thing today SM.  Just totally shocked at how far we've fallen so fast.

Along those lines, I have decided I will no longer and pledge allegiance to the flag next time I'm in that spot.  Won't pledge allegiance to a lie.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:19 | 3648863 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Be afraid. Be very, very afraid.


The U.S. Government is now seemingly hell bent on attempting to dismantle whatever RIGHTS inherent to the citizenry), not privileges bestowed, and acknowledged as such by a plain text reading of the American Constitution) it is able to get away with, and the bah bah sheeple are sickenly apathetic about this alarming trend (as evidenced by the lack of complete and total outrage in the wake of the NSA Prism, etc. violations of basic and broad constitutional RIGHTS).

There should already have been a 9 million person (3% of the U.S. population) march on Washington D.C. (targeting the White House, Capitol Building & Supreme Court) in response to Prismgate. This march should be of the type that unambiguously signals that the American People are now proclaiming "Enough!" to the complete disregard of their RIGHTS by agents of all branches of government THAT WORK FOR THEM, and charged with the quite fundamental task of ensuring strict compliance with constitutional governance (rather than blatant disregard of same).

But so far... NADA.

The progressive land grab that is being suggested by the article referenced in the NYT uses failed logic that is an extension of one of the worst and most constititutionally violative decisions ever made by the SCOTUS, that being the appalling case of Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005).

It's no hyperbole to claim that with the increasingly aggressive and frequent assaults on the most basic and important CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS of the American Citizenry by all 3 branches of government (as well as unaccountable and secretive agencies that lurk in the shadows), we are approaching a real state of distress, S.O.S. style.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:21 | 3648880 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

The city of New London also won in the case of Robert Jordan v. The City of New London which basically states you can be "too smart"  and can be denied being hired as a cop- meaning you will never question orders- no matter how fucked up they might be.  It kind of is all dovetailing for the crackdown.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:31 | 3648916 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

You're just a crazy conspiracy theorist (who I happen to agree with).

Seriously, if I thought there was even the slightest hesitation within our government to wipe away property rights and just TAKE SHIT, I would be on my hind legs arguing with you.  But I sense no such hesitation.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:46 | 3648967 Melin
Melin's picture

"The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave." Miss Rand

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:05 | 3649025 whoopsing
whoopsing's picture

They leveled half of New London for a corporation, Canon I think, ,displacing a lot of lower middle class folks forever. Absolute crime

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 00:26 | 3649185 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Pfizer, I think. It was a drug company.

You want to know the funny part? They seized all that property, cleared it... and have yet to do anything with it.

A complete, fucking mockery of the law.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:12 | 3649230 Freddie
Freddie's picture

What law or laws?  They don't need no steenkin laws.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 09:12 | 3649693 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

What is even funnier is that nobody responsible got hanged, shot, or burned in the public square. And nobody whose property was being stolen laid down in front of the dozers. Conclusion on the part of TPTB? This shit is really easy!

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:16 | 3648867 pragmatic hobo
pragmatic hobo's picture

what's a "moral hazard"?

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 10:00 | 3649844 noless
noless's picture

The point of law is to retain a mutual and enforceable system of morality, often times referred to as "justice", moral hazard is created when laws or regulations lead to unintended consequences which punish the prudent law abiding citizen.

In this case people who lived within their means will get shafted but those who possibly intentionally did not will get off on better terms, essentially stealing from the prudent through a pseudo nationalization, implying that the debt obligation is now the responsibility of the tax payer, instead of the individuals who made the bad loans, or even those who agreed to the terms.

These types of situations offer incentives to exploit the system instead of follow the law, that is my understanding of moral hazard, if you weren't being sarcastic of course.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:17 | 3648869 Northeaster
Northeaster's picture

One would think that after a collapse, this would be a bad idea the second go around. Nope. Not here.

The Kelo Decision? Mention that and no one knows what the fuck you're talking about.

This is where we're at, and this is why the largest transfer of wealth in history is allowed to continue.

48 MILLION Americans on food stamps is in fact a Depression.

Allowing the theft of homes that banks and governments don't own is still theft.

While I do my best in my neck of the woods to "fight the good fight" as a citizen nobody, we're in the minority and simply outgunned & outnumbered by the brain-dead masses. 

We're going to have to ride this out, as or our children will, and hopefully they are empowered with the KNOWLEDGE to see what is happening.

We have failed our children. Maybe their generation will do better.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:26 | 3648904 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

don't count on it.  unless there is a collapse and revolution then you can forget the USA and welcome the USSA.  Too many sheeple...

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:17 | 3648870 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

just call it what it is, communism. This is so sick, all of this. 

I'm thankful to have ZH to have like-minded folks to talk to because it seems nobody cares anymore. Nothing has any consequence. 

"Vengeance is mine," so sayeth the Lord. He is the only one I fear. 

Perverts like Obama have the gall to invoke the Lord's blessing when he supports the murder of the innocent unborn and supports sexual perversion.

God will have His judgment. His will will be done. Trust in Him alone. Satan's time is almost up. 

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:32 | 3648915 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

Try touching lightly on serious subjects with the neighbors about the fucked up shit going on with the govt and people run for the exit.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:49 | 3648973 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

I bring this stuff up in my college classes, too. Here's what I wrote for a political science class for my discussion section write up:

Recognizing that the article indeed delves deep into the intricacies of ‘issue networks’ and the emergence of ‘technopols,’ among other developments and contentions--such as the matter of reaching ‘consensus’--Heclo raises, I believe it is critical to take a more holistic assessment focused on the spectrum that ranges from laissez faire to ‘nanny state.’ To say I am pessimistic about government—let alone its growth--is a vast understatement. As an initiation to this viewpoint, it must be reinforced that, by definition, government is not executed by mutual or voluntary means, but by force. It’s not surprising that, as relayed by the article, networks expand and bureaucrats find new justifications for authority and financing; it’s because government seeks power. Unfortunately, many people have become cultured to fall prey to the siren song of ‘security’, which will ‘only’ cost a little liberty to achieve, they’re told. For instance, after the Boston terrorism event, I fear that government will, as Mayor Rahm Emanuel once said, ‘never let a good crisis go to waste’, and implement more Orwellian surveillance-state measures. 

I would add that it matters not how ‘well-intended’ a bureaucrat may be, because government simply is spending other peoples’ money, and these bureaucracies such as the FDA and the SEC themselves are not subject to competition. None of the high-ranking Federal Reserve members foresaw the Housing Bubble in ’08 that was caused by their policy of zero interest rates, and what’s more, they are doubling down on that now with money printing as well. 

I think it is tragic that people get so lost in debates such as ‘fair’ levels of taxation, that they never look at the forest for the trees and reflect on how, say, America never even used to have an income tax, and yet in that time of laissez faire America had industrial revolutions and huge standard of living gains. In general, the income levels in the Washington, D.C. metro area, and the coveted, cushy nature of government jobs insulated from competitive pressures, speak volumes of how Americans have, in their quest for ‘security’ achieved via warfare and welfare, deviated from the Founders’ warnings about government intervention.This Heclo article as a whole speaks to the ‘business of politics’, and unquestionably these people are clever at distracting and numbing people both from financial reality (see the national debt) and from the consequences of more regulation.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:53 | 3648984 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

This was another one I wrote a few weeks ago. Instead of getting bogged down in the BS they wanted me to write about on this one article, I got a chance to speak my mind.



Generally both cover the benefits party identification yields to candidates, from PAC connections to at least a base platform of which voters can expect to infer basic positions on political matters. My questions, though, derive from the literature Aldrich brings up on the three conventional approaches to studying parties that sort out broadly as either parties as diverse coalitions, as electoral aids, or as ‘responsible’. Specifically, I would align myself with those who, rather than seeing legitimate differences between the two mainstream parties on which to make a true referendum on the status quo,  instead see a false dichotomy. For a conservative libertarian like myself, the political spectrum ranges from laissez faire to statism, and I don’t see much difference between the mainstream GOP and Democrats. At the end of the day, debt increases, liberties are lost under the pretenses of ‘security’ and ‘safety net’ via, say, more Orwellian surveillance or unemployment insurance, respectively, and the foreign policy remains interventionist. Therefore I would ask what I suppose is a more lofty question: Is the status quo of parties akin to the Hegelian dialectic (problem-reaction-solution) utilized by the ‘powers that be’ to create the illusion of choice when the reality is the core policies of deficits, warfare, and welfare continue regardless of the party? Also, the entire convention process makes it virtually impossible for a third party to make tangible inroads, and I likewise believe this is very dangerous to have that institutionalized suppression. 

Basically, whereas others complain about gridlock and a do-nothing Congress, I see plenty of bipartisanship when it comes down to the hard choices. Both parties aside from the libertarian wing of the Republican Party favor Keynesianism and consistently run up deficits. Thus I would say that while the political parties are vehicles for office-seekers such as their providing a means to generate broader identification, ultimately, for instance, the mainstream GOP will relent and follow the model of previous readings in class where the party members seek to give diffuse benefits without being the ‘bad guy’ who calls for cuts.  

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:01 | 3649012 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

In the discussion sections I will bring up things like why what may seem 'well-intended' policies like min. wage are very detrimental in  reality (because they price out of the labor market say young blacks who maybe are only worth $5/hr. to a business owner right away but could work their way up by proving themselves and if not getting paid enough take their work elsewhere; better than gangbanging on the street and being a perpetual free shit army member) and also why people should be able to intern freely and contract voluntarily even if no pay.


Of course they respond with all the 'social justice' BS but I just remember I brought up how if I voluntarily will intern for someone for free, that's my own business. Of course they say it's 'unfair' since not everyone can work for free, and then I brought up how contributing to this big time is the high tuition costs whereas in past one could pay for one's schooling with a summer job, and now it is exorbitant and it's all because .gov subsidizes these loans with taxpayers ultimately the collateral for the loans.


I mention also how the real 'social justice' is being able to freely contract for one's labor, and that blacks should realize they have been hurt by Owebamao's regulations and do gooder shit like min wage, but they just quickly move on. You should see the look in the TA's eyes when I bring this stuff up.


And in my Victorian British history class, in discussion we had to say our proposed topic for the term paper, and I talked about how I was going to write about zionism and how the corrupt Rothschilds infiltrated and how compared to the industrious and Christian ethos of the era, they were antithetical to that as they brought their usurious ways, and the TA just had this stone cold face. He did say something like 'well some people have this zionist conspiracy theory' or something like that, but then it was back to the bread and circuses.

I actually did the paper on Richard Cobden, who was pretty much a Ron Paul of that era, as he railed against the Corn Laws and was anti-imperialist unlike many of the leaders in that time.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:06 | 3649026 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

The TA in that poli sci class couldn't talk enough about how empowered she felt when Obama won, and how she got on the el to head down to Grant Park for the ceremony after he won. And basically the whole discussions in there aside from when I interject are just socialist love affairs. These people have no clue. 

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:09 | 3649037 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

and all my econ and finance courses are just Keynesianism and follow sheep-like modern portfolio theory and Miller Modigliani and 'risk-free rate.' I doubt any one of my 'peers' has even heard of the Austrian school, because the only time they even remotely deviate from the Keynesianism is when they bring up Friedman for his theories on money supply and velocity. And even there, it's the Hegelian dialectic because they'll say 'see, see, even the libertarian guy thinks there should be a Federal Reserve', when in reality there is a true free market school of thought in the Austrian school that wants no government intervention at all and actually respects the individual and praxaeology and a prioriism.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 05:59 | 3649370 falak pema
falak pema's picture

you make economics sound like an EXACT science.

That's the problem not the solution.

Human nature study, as history, teaches us that economics, an interactive social science, with HUGE subjective inputs from us homo sapiens; fed on individual passion, prejudice and gut feelings; either innate thru DNA inheritence or acquired in societal upbringing; makes the living, breathing process need control and feedback loops that the "free market" doesn't provide.

Civilization means living with other imperfect souls like ourselves and conditionning our freedom to dovetail theirs; all in the context of different perspective and value systems; 'cos thats what individual "free will" means in fact.

Unless you replace the humans with 100% logical humanoids we will ALWAYS be faced with this problem. 

An "ideal" world of totally autonomous, intelligent robots is not yet the world we live in. The Austrians or the Keynesians have to get used to it; their yardstick is NOT adapted to real life, even tho its a formidable tool to AVOID social conflicts; aka WAR. Markets do channel our energies in trade and exchange and thus create by non zero game innovation the alternative to age old rage for neighbour's property, cow or wife.

We need hybrid, holistic systems, to reflect reality, which means they will be IMPERFECT like us; get used to it.

The real question in society is finding balance between different facets of collective living : economic, social and political, hopefully on a level playing field devoid of collective passion and prejudice.

Some act that...  Economics is one aspect of this dialectic.  

The problem today is empire vs the people and that is not just an economics issue.                                                               

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 09:30 | 3649745 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

You seem to miss the point that Austrian economics DOES understand that a market CANNOT be controlled by a central authority because it simply has no mechanism to anticipate and respond rationally to the wants of millions and billions of individual daily transactions.

Our current condition is ample proof that Govt. manipulated (with the collusion of banks) artificial cheap credit creates chaos in Govt. spending and in the marketplace.

Capital has a cost to time preference, and when that cost is artificially distorted by lower (or higher) than a market interest rate, people will not, and can not, make rational decisions as to proper allocation of capital, which result in mal-investment and 'bubbles'.

The real problem is fictional 'money' that creates fictional 'value' to those with access to it's creation point robs everyone else of value that they have earned and concentrates that wealth to the top tier who have that advantage.

Austrian economics recognizes that only 'real' money freely used by a marketplace free of Govt. intervention will result in the best outcomes because assets can be assigned their true value and every person gains by a free association in mutual trade. Let the marketplace decide what is a fair price.

A market can never be at a 'perfect' equilibrium and no attempt to make it move to a desired outcome can succeed better than letting the demos vote by electing to spend and create value in a free exchange without false pricing signals. Austrian econ is an excellent observation of what will occur when democracy rules the market instead of Govt. and bank cartels.

They make no claims to exactness because the whole point to the theory is that human action rules and the causes and effects of those decisions should not be interfered with by outside actors to their advantage.

Sorry that this may be a simplistic view but obviously I'm not a writer with skill. You might be surprised by the democratic nature of an Austrian outlook at what people do and how and why Govt.s should let them do it without coercion or manipulation and only punishing actors who violate the law and the peoples trust with fraud and collusion.




Wed, 06/12/2013 - 11:13 | 3650109 falak pema
falak pema's picture

I don't knock the austrian model per se; All I'm saying is that it never convinced the political class as a useful tool to service capitalism. It was never used by them! Ever!

What does that teach us? Both State AND oligarchy shun it.

I'm just being pragmatic and saying in the holistic model that defines nation state governance it was NEVER used.

Why? If its so much better than all those other models?

Obviously because TPTB, both Oligarchs and Statist so called democratic demagogues, found it too transparent and unfit for their power manipulations!

Voilà! It didn't fit the power mindset of Machiavellian sons of power equation. 

If Austrian model is better than we need philosopher kings to run the republic, not charlatans.

But that's a rare breed like the unicorn! 

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:57 | 3648998 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Especially if one of your neighbors is a 62 year old liberal golfing freak. He runs back into his house for fear of looking at the gadsten flags flying on my property. He took 99 weeks unemplyment right before he retired and then bitches about the bank bailouts. 

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:19 | 3648873 Uber Vandal
Uber Vandal's picture

Is there no data for Vermont, UP Michigan, and South Dakota, or are they the only two states, and part of a state, without a large percentage of underwater mortgages?

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:35 | 3649256 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Ever been to, say, Michigan? The Rothschilds could have a field day with all the 'blood-in-the-streets' prices.

I'll bet that if they relocate those 60,000 (African) workers that Israel is pushing out to some 'undisclosed' country, that these hard-working people would put the local lazy penis-suckers to shame and transform the place.

Sorry, but I'm just so disgusted with the reality, compared with the PC PR and BS. If you've been there, with eyes open and honest with yourself, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:22 | 3648886 tlnzz
tlnzz's picture

Once again the free shit people get a break with a wright down and the rest of us who have continued to pay on time will pay for it one way or another.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:30 | 3648910 Promethus
Promethus's picture

Let's get this over with.  Let's go FULL RETARD over the cliff and into the abyss. Although it will end badly, at least it will end.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:38 | 3648941 max2205
max2205's picture

This could work....oh wait....

I thought CA and Vegas were fixed.....guess not

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:42 | 3648952 20834A
20834A's picture

When will a true leader step forward and say enough! I know he's old and a man of peace, but I so wish Ron Paul would step up and lead a long-overdue uprising, even if just of a civil disobedience action. I would answer his call. And I think he could rally hundreds of thousands, at least. My soul cries for justice. I dream of it (or is it just a fantasy?). I feel like a slave on the plantation, and I'm very very angry.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:45 | 3648962 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

All you have to do is accept the fact that, though it can take hundreds of years, those predisposed to Control -- first as oxygen, then conveniently as a livelihood -- eventually take over.

That is a natural process.

From there you can see not only how it has fallen, but what the trajectory is, too... and most importantly, you will understand that there are no forces in play to stop it.

The path is to stop the aimless bitching, and apply energy and cooperation towards appropriate pressure on the body known as Congress.

Congress is still the grand Controller.  Don't miss last call.  Don't succumb to the chaos.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 22:50 | 3648978 Fuku Ben
Fuku Ben's picture

Eminent domain is the government's new marketing term for legalized theft

Also delusionally positioned as a "Win Win" scenario 

"Eminent domain proceedings are not “zero sum game” and will render all stakeholders better off"


Brought to you courtesy of the rubber stamp traitors of tyranny in the judiciary



Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:02 | 3649014 Mr. Hudson
Mr. Hudson's picture

Why is it the hippies across the nation got angry and protested in the 1960's over the Vietnam war, but Americans today won't get off their butts and speak out against this out-of-control criminal government, which has destroyed the United States?

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 09:12 | 3649691 besnook
besnook's picture

remember it was the silent majority that blocked the hippies in 1972 who are the real people responsible for the rise of the wacko right that gave us reagan to clinton to shrub and obama.

the subsequent generations haven't done squat for more than thirty years. gen x and y are useless. just look at the ridiculous metro gay hipster image of today's generation. we had woodstock and antiwar protests and civil rights marches and rioting and general mayhem that got several people assassinated, a war ended and two presidents resigning. they have....what?   do you really expect them to do something useful? . i remember when i went back to school because i thought i needed a job in the late eighties and my first impression was how conservative the 18-21 year old undergrads looked and acted, more concerned about towing the line and fitting in without any deviation from the current zeitgeist. it was scary to know i was so much more radical than i felt in the 60s-70s because no one was questioning the system during the age of russia's collapse and greed is good. these nimrods are running the show now. it is no wonder, in hindsight, that the system has essentially self destructed. it has no opposition.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:10 | 3649040 slightlyskeptical
slightlyskeptical's picture

I've been pushing for such a plan for years. I was always in favor of the Fed doing it rather than state and local governments as they have made it clear they have the ability to create money to buy debt. .

Rather than just deal with "problem" mortgages the Fed should buy them all outright.  Lop off 1% principal for every year remaining on the loan.  Over 30 years the program pays for itself.  At the same time let Social Security redeem bonds and fund the primary mortgage origination market.

Just like someone posted earlier - "we could feed and house everyone in the world, but there is just no money it". Same thing goes for fixing the housing market and also Social Security. It can be done, but it will cost investors too much future profits . 

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:41 | 3649120 Nue
Nue's picture

So the FED creates money buys the houses from the banks. How many trillions would that be? What do the banks do with all that new cash? Why create a new bubble somewhere else that's what

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 09:25 | 3649730 slightlyskeptical
slightlyskeptical's picture

Banks pay off bondholders with the cash. Fractional reserve lending is eliminated. Forces bondholders to deploy their cash into productive endeavors.better off homeowners are now able to actually help grow the economy.


Or why don't we just kick everyone out of their houses, let the housing market collapse once again, and leave half the homes in America empty with no chances of recovery for a decade.


Which scenario is best for the country as whole?

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 05:31 | 3649378 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

You are clinically insane.

Every system that rewards failure is doomed to collapse or turn into totalitarianism.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:14 | 3649053 Nue
Nue's picture

To Paraphrase Thomas Sowell. The Goverment can't give you a dollar today that it does not steal from you tomorrow. The losses on these underwater houses do not cease to exist just because the Government obfuscates the cost. I don't know whether the FED is insane , stupid or some morose combination of the two.  

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 09:31 | 3649748 slightlyskeptical
slightlyskeptical's picture

Any losses are covered by future principal and interest payments

Let's say homeowner owes $260,000. Fed pays mortgage holder 100% of principal or $260,000. They then refinance the loan at $200,000 @ 4% for 30 years.  Over the 30 years the Fed gets paid back $340,000.

So who is losing money under these circumstances? Only the mortgage holders lose future interest in lieu of taking a 30% loss in foreclosure. Seems like a good deal for everyone involved.

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:24 | 3649084 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

Isn't this the crazy idea that John Cusek was pushing last year ?

Tue, 06/11/2013 - 23:34 | 3649109 Its Only Rock N Roll
Its Only Rock N Roll's picture

Once you run out of the good, bad ideas then you start going to the bad, bad ideas.  This one is a really bad idea.  Which means there is a good chance they will try it.  Which is really bad. 

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 00:28 | 3649181 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

The Supine Court already gave their stamp of approval to municipalities and corporations colluding to steal personal property in KELO vs. City of New London in 2005.

The rest is just funneling more property, assets, and cash to the elites and the kleptoligarchy.

Rental nation and debt serfdom, all monitored by NSA and enforced by the Police State.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 00:46 | 3649204 bankonzhongguo
bankonzhongguo's picture

Here's an idea.  How about the fucking banks take a loss for once?

What?  The banks are bankrupt?  Well, just close out the banks, make the depositors whole, clear out all the Ponzi derivative unreal-economy and real assets held by any dead bank in a single US county are rolled into a county trust administer by that local government.  All assets are sold at courthouse steps auction.


Reset the mechanism.


PS.  Nobody that ever worked in a bank is ever allowed to be employed in finance again.  Back to the fields!

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:08 | 3649227 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

The housing market will not heal with any sort of tricks unless there are good paying and plentiful jobs. Simply reducing mortgage amounts provides only temporary respite.


Wed, 06/12/2013 - 05:28 | 3649376 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

It's not about making a respite, it's about keeping that bubble growing and making money in commissions.

This idea, by the way, is driving me mad.
And second, it's a perfect example of the kind of shit TPTBs can come up with to keep the Ponzi going.
Collapse 2013? LOL. Give me a break!

Shit, it seems I'll be cost down averaging for many more years...

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 01:24 | 3649246 ArXiv76
ArXiv76's picture

Land grab for agenda 21? just thinking outside the box......

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 04:48 | 3649355 falak pema
falak pema's picture

command economy meets market economy with a bang; just like the NSA says : you have nothing to fear when we move your assets from one to the other; we are watching you and therefore don't step out of line and everything will be fine. 

I'm all for supporting the basic needs of people; but I'm not for destroying the market mechanism; expecially if it empowers the NASTY brigade who think they OWN the shooting match. 

We have a problem Houston. 

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:18 | 3649461 Catullus
Catullus's picture

This is just called abrogation of property claims. It's one of those things that scares capital away forever. There's thing out there that if you take out a mortgage, you somehow "own" your home. You don't own shit. You have to pay off the loan.

But here's the other problem: you can't unbake the securitization cookie. You're never going to get a clear deed. A muni simply won't know who to pay

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:26 | 3649475 earnulf
earnulf's picture

So, If I understand the premise correctly, they want the city/county/state to exercise "eminent Domain" to seize the properties and restructure the loans to benefit the homeowner.    So where exactly does the city/county/state actually have the authority to enter into another person's private, legal transaction and supercede the terms of said agreement to alter the basics?    My understanding of law (and I'm not a lawyer) is that cities/counties and states have the authority to tax, but not to seize property with the intent of altering the previously agreed to terms of a financial agreement that the city/county/state had no part in to begin with.

And should the city/county/state be so insanely stupid as to actually consider such an action, the MBS investors would scream to high heaven because thier profit stream was being cut by government.   Which leaves the question, would the cities/counties/states make up the difference through tax dollars, which would no doubt spark more than a little protest on the steps of the municipal building (I'm thinking pitchforks and torches, with a backup of rails, tar and feathers)

I say turn the lawyers loose on this one.   The first government (city/county/state) that tries to pull this off with tax dollars is going to be the first up to be tied up in court for the next ten years and all the legal costs that go with it.    Any entity that recieves taxes or tax dollars that tries this kind of an end run is going to be opening themselves up to a bevy of lawsuits (and American's can sue with the best of them.)

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:31 | 3649491 22winmag
22winmag's picture

I concur... this is comical from a legal standpoint. The real terrorists are in public office and their weapon of choice is the pen.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 10:08 | 3649874 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture


We doan need no steenkin' legal...

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:28 | 3649483 22winmag
22winmag's picture

What you are witnessing with this property grab is one of the many death rattles of a system gone mad. Thankfully, their are millions of highly motivated, heavily armed Americans around to pick up where this toxic system left off.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:40 | 3649508 Dollar Bill Hiccup
Dollar Bill Hiccup's picture

And I thought that smoking crack and meth was illegal in New York. Those FRBNY boys, they sure keep the good times rolling.

A fantastic map though. Look at the well run State of California, for example. You can assuredly draw your own conclusions.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 07:47 | 3649519 Dollar Bill Hiccup
Dollar Bill Hiccup's picture

If you havn't gone there, I'll just add this. Isn't Senator Feinstein's hubby a big private equity guy in ... real estate?

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 08:06 | 3649559 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Maybe they should create a new vehicle to slice up some valuations and that way all ......  ahhh fuck it....

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 10:02 | 3649858 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Bend over taxpayer...the Big Govt. is here to help you by dumping the defaults on your local govt.

Banks and investors take little hits and taxpayers take the big ones. Not to mention the lawyers paradise this would create and who gets to pay them?

Sounds fair to me.

Angelo Mozillo can write up the new loans, now known as County Wide.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 10:19 | 3649919 NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

What a crock of shit.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 11:28 | 3650158 Darkside
Darkside's picture

The munies are going bankrupt as it is 0% interest rates for 5 years The pensions are toast. They don't exist. They can't print or borrow enough to sustain it. I could imagine the amount of tax delinquencies that are in all the counties. They are grabbing at straws its over. Look at Detroit wait til that hits then the rest will fall like dominoes grab what you can, its just a matter of time

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 22:41 | 3652750 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Nutty as fuck.
You say "how about a wooden nickel" and people know they're robbed, yet you offer freshly printed cash from nothing and now it's OK.
You say "I got a bridge to sell ya" and people know it's robbery and it's a common joke, yet they'll GLADLY buy MUNI BONDS.
What the fuck do people think MUNI bonds are?
I'll sell ya a bridge, some roads, some meter-maid revenue and a whole bunch more - rolled into a MUNI bond.
Fuckin IDIOTS.

Wed, 06/12/2013 - 11:51 | 3650252 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

You know who pioneered this idea. Everyone's favorite socialist shit hole that is called California.... No consequences for bad actions on either side of the transaction at the expense of the taxpayers. This is 21st century controlled private/public Marxism at it's finest in taking away private property and property rights. Remember as the economy keeps going south and the wages keep stagnating this repeats over and over until only the crony club and government employees can actually afford a mortgage loan and the rest are permanent renters either to the connected crony hedge funds or state/bank/local municipalities. USSA USSA USSA....

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!