This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

CME Hikes Gold Margins By 25%

Tyler Durden's picture


How very unexpected. And how, judging by today's massive selloff, it is almost as if someone knew in advance this would happen. Can JPMorgan just restock its vault with whatever gold it needs to meet its massive delivery demands (at three year low prices) so some normalcy can return to the market?

Source: CME


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:40 | 3676950 agent default
agent default's picture

Fuck you Bernanke

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:50 | 3676983 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

...and fuck you Greenspan, Volker, Paulson, Geithner, Dimon, Blankfein, Blythe, Kagan, Sotomayor, Alito, Roberts, Ginsberg, Thomas, Scalia, Napolitano, Alexander, Brennan, Obama, NWO Bush, Patriot Act Bush, Boehner, Feinstein, McCain, Pelosi, Reid, etc.....mother fucking..etc..   Fuck you all.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:53 | 3677002 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Fuck them? Impossible... they are running 'the show'...

NSA Whistleblower: NSA Spying On – and Blackmailing – Top Government Officials and Military Officers


NSA whistleblower Russel Tice told Peter B. Collins on Boiling Frog Post News (the website of high-level FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds):

Tice: Okay. They went after–and I know this because I had my hands literally on the paperwork for these sort of things–they went after high-ranking military officers; they went after members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and some of the–and judicial. But they went after other ones, too. They went after lawyers and law firms. All kinds of–heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges. One of the judges is now sitting on the Supreme Court that I had his wiretap information in my hand. Two are former FISA court judges. They went after State Department officials. They went after people in the executive service that were part of the White House–their own people.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:54 | 3677010 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

HaHa!!!  Proof that the COMEX is a fraud with no gold.  White collar criminals draining the GLD.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:58 | 3677024 AllThatGlitters
AllThatGlitters's picture

This is to limit further hedge fund shorting and to actually induce a short-squeeze, since the bullion banks were buying all day today, right?



Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:14 | 3677071 OutLookingIn
OutLookingIn's picture

Remember that the margin credit debt on stocks was near an all time high.

Watch the fun unfold as the scramble to cover has begun.

Everything thats not nailed down is being sold to meet their margin calls.

Lots of nothing but air under the market now. lol

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:14 | 3677073 AllThatGlitters
AllThatGlitters's picture

Well, Globex is open, and so far, gold is just yawning:

Perhaps gold would have actually traded up today, but the insiders knew this was coming.

Heck, I don't know. Somebody explain it to me in a way that a 2nd grader could understand it.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:03 | 3677195 SWCroaker
SWCroaker's picture

Gold  <=== Bad!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:54 | 3677305 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

I think your remark is as good as anyones. All I can do is remind everyone that for every shrot contract there's a long; and also I can observe that the open interest, which is the total number of contracts that exist; if the open interest is reported at 121,000; that means there's 60,500 long and 60,500 short; has been decreasing steadily during this downwash in gold and silver prices, and the curve of the decline in open interest pretty much matches the shape of the declining price, on the daily price chart. What this means is that Long's are liquidating; rather than new shorts are being created; so basically the downwash is a hapening featuring people closing out long contracts. Why the Exchange would want to raise the margin in a situation like this, I don't know. It's not intuitively understandable to me. Everyone understands that raising the margin will cause more liquidations and a lower open interest; but they already have this going on. Typically, or in the past, we have seen them raise the margin when the open interest was quite high and rising quickly; and in that case you can make a reasonable argument as to why they did it; they felt that the market needed to calm down, or they might have trouble matching up trades and having the thing run smoothly; but why they did it now, I don't know. I decided not to be involved in any of this trading over a month ago; I don't understand it; so I'm not going to get into to it. Today I just bought the long Bond Contract @136.07; because it seems too cheap; I think it's over done and it'll probably rally; the silver price is very attractive; but I'm still sitting out the dance; I don't know what's going on.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:30 | 3677551 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

"I don't know what's going on."

A bit presumptive, I know, but I think you speak for all of us.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:17 | 3678121 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

If the open interest is reported at 121,000 there are 121,000 long and 121,000 short.

If an investor bought one call contract from an option writer, the investor is long one contract, the writer is short one.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:29 | 3678150 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Your statement that "for evrry short, there's a long." is somehow used as the basis for legitimising an argument. There may be a short for every long but not all of the shorts are covered. Just like a bank loan, there is no intention of supplying any "consideration" into the agreement. In other words, the banks and shorts don't have any skin in the game. They're naked for a start and can claim force majeure as the ultimate get out of jail card. 

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:35 | 3678170 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

The fact that the open interest is falling does not mean that honest longs are buying the shorts, thereby cancelling out the contract. The dishonest shorts are buying back their own short contracts that they used to monkey-hammer the price down with. The get to print their false tickets and buy them back at profit. Any honest long playing with margin in these markets is a junkie on the path to "financial" oblivion. Traded it, got hammered like this in '08, got out bloodied but wiser.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:34 | 3677113 SRSrocco
SRSrocco's picture

This is the same kind of GARBAGE that the Central Banks and IMF were doing in THE GREAT GOLD CRASH OF 1975.  I highly recommend this article.  It details all the gold selling by Central Banks.  However, today they are selling PAPER:

MUST READ: Sunday Gold Fix – The Gold Crash ’75


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:09 | 3677126 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

"Can JPMorgan just restock its vault with whatever gold it needs to meet its massive delivery demands (at three year low prices) so some normalcy can return to the market?"

Unfortunately "normal" for the COMEX is a state of perpetual corruption.  

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:35 | 3677771 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture

You saw this, right? Written over a year ago.


Btw, there was no gold "crash" in 1975.  Because you tout it, I see you have a blog.  BFD.  Why don't you do a little homework and get some perspective.  The US gold futures market started trading at the end of 1974.  Typical with a new futures market, the specs over-priced the commodity and the trade sold it to them.  The mkt sold off for over nearly 2 years - hardly a crash.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 04:48 | 3678391 anonum
anonum's picture

Food for thought from your link; "It is dangerous to write off the gold bull... In the 1970's, economists rewrote the global monetary order and chaos resulted.  But at least they had their gold crash for a temporary reprieve." 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:03 | 3677041 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture



Judge Napolitano on Snowden:

"One of the spies who knew the power he and his fellow spies had and who had access to the innermost thoughts of hundreds of millions of us – and who disbelieved the president – was Edward Snowden. Snowden realized the unconstitutional nature of what the government was doing and concluded that he could not be faithful to both of his oaths. One of those oaths – to retain secrets – is grounded in a federal statute that requires secrecy and punishes the exposure of secrets. The other oath is grounded in the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land and protects the natural right to be left alone and does not punish the governmental violation of that right.

When confronted with the conflicting oaths, Snowden opted for the higher good: fidelity to the supreme law of the land. Hence, in order to protect the privacy of us all, Snowden violated the lesser oath and upheld the greater one. He could not serve two masters when the lesser of the two (fidelity to the government's laws) facilitated a corruption of the greater of the two (the primacy to the Constitution).

He's a traitor, the establishment roared. He's a high school dropout. He left the Army. He admits to having lots of sex with his girlfriend. He fled to Hong Kong.

Who cares?

He understands, as Ronald Reagan did, that if we don't control the government, the government will control us. That's why the Washington establishment yawned when we learned what it knew and now roars because Snowden challenged it. Those in power want to stay there and will misuse the Constitution to do so for as long as they can get away with it, no matter to which political party they belong. Any government that secretly spies on nearly all the population is aiming to control the population.

Snowden knew that this massive violation of the constitutionally guaranteed rights of nearly every American, orchestrated and operated in secrecy, is corrupting the Constitution and empowering the corruptors. It was that understanding plus a willingness to face down those in power who lack fidelity to the Constitution and who can do him harm that constituted the behavior of a hero.

Is he flawed?

The only hero who was not flawed was nailed to a tree 2,000 years ago because those He came into the world to save rejected Him."


Impossible?  I'd say PROBABLE.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:47 | 3677150 maxblockm
maxblockm's picture

Wow, those are great videos Shell Game...


Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:19 | 3678130 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

The 21st century image of a man standing in front of a tank in China is a man standing in front of the NSA.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:41 | 3678188 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

They aren't fucking around anymore.

Word spreads fast. People shut up.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 02:22 | 3678306 Flagit
Flagit's picture

ever see an engine block launch that far?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:09 | 3677059 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

I would really like to see the tape of Linsey Graham romping and frolicking with all those naked young boys or what ever they have on him. It must be pretty serious stuff.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:05 | 3677200 SWCroaker
SWCroaker's picture

No.  Maybe hear about them, or better yet, hear *of* them, but not see them.      Ick.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:16 | 3677221 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Or receipts for lavender bathrooms delivered by him to all those under-age boys.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:58 | 3677313 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Long live the revolution.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:53 | 3677003 BigJim
BigJim's picture

The JPM, the!

I wonder if Bernanke speaks German? 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:54 | 3677004 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Just remember. In the paper market, premiums don’t matter if you get your money for free from the guy who prints it.

Have fun “trading” against that.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:13 | 3677005 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

<-- GLD to be drained, reviving COMEX inventory for delivery

<-- COMEX futures holders will pitch their contracts.


Place yer bets.

NOTE:  The word reviving is used loosely, as a doctor can technically revive a squirrel that has been run over by a steam roller - to some degree.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:21 | 3677089 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Bullion banks will add up their net exposure, and surprise surprise, find that, although they're short the physical required to deliver against their obligations, they are actually net long.  So they'll just politely transfer the delivery requirements over to the specs who are net short, and let them be the ones who default. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:34 | 3677115 sampo
sampo's picture

No. What if they're just buying it all from the open market with moar debt?

Yeah, I know..

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:43 | 3677133 kito
kito's picture

What if bullion banks are bleeding gold because everybody is selling and no longer needed storage??? Just a thought...

Edit: how could one tell if the drain comes from dumping physical or from more demanding it? Doesn't jpm store for others as opposed to being completely proprietary?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:58 | 3677465 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

You can see the position summaries in the Comex inventory and weekly COT reports.  But yes, those could be either misleading or misinterpreted, so yes, as I wrote in a post yesterday, one possible scenario is

- JPM and the other BBs are actually position neutral like they say, the entire gold market is entirely above board, and the 400 ton overnight sell-off back in April, generating the crash in the Comex price of gold contrary to the vertically increasing money supply, bail-ins in Cyprus, record demand in China and India, inability to scare up enough gold to return to Germany, ABN settling in cash, ....  is all just normal market function.  So, although they and/or the industry have been implicated in numerous cases of market manipulation to their own benefit since at least 2008, in the case of the precious metals markets, which are illiquid, easily manipulated and highly political, in these markets their hands are completely clean and they operate with only the highest scruples.


You think that's a likely scenario?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:59 | 3677317 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

The process of closing a short position consists of making a buy; it's a buy order that cancells a short position and takes you out of the market, or "square" as they say. So the short never has a problem. To imagine that a short futures trader has to "deliver" something is just to prove that you don';t understand futures trading.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:52 | 3677444 kito
kito's picture

That wasn't my question is how can you differentiate isgust vs. demand for gold bullion merely by accounting for what is in the vault. I don't see how one can..whats your beef with me my thoughts represent a chink in your armour or world I bring your latent.vulnerabilities to the surface...

Oh wait you weren't talking to me......

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:05 | 3677482 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

If you've sold somebody a futures contract, and they demand delivery, you have to deliver (subject to all the Comex rules that allow cash settlement).  Either you have the inventory (covered) or you have to get it.   This may not be the norm, since most contracts get rolled or closed out prior to delivery, but the underlying fundamental of futures markets (and options markets) is based on that original premise.  It's also why the bullion banks maintain inventory.  You think, for example, if I sold calls on Google and on expiry date the buyer of those calls was in the money that I wouldn't be on the hook for the shares?  

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:43 | 3678019 neidermeyer
neidermeyer's picture

My dear Mr. Huxley , That scenario is positively lacking in scruples ,, they would never assign the dirty to someone else... just like they would never wait til the close of business to decide which trades were for their institutional clients and which trades go in their "win" pile..

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:41 | 3677136 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

NOTE:  The word reviving is used loosely, as a doctor can technically revive a squirrel that has been run over by a steam roller - to some degree.

Kinda like "reviving" those frog legs with electrodes in high school science classes.  Add enough QE and any dead market will revive the same way.  Just death throes.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:44 | 3677145 resurger
resurger's picture

A rout in gold ... bullshit!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:53 | 3677006 Ratscam
Ratscam's picture

you sound like 2 Pac song "hit them up"

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:37 | 3677124 Lets_Eat_Ben
Lets_Eat_Ben's picture

woah woah woah wait a minute now...what about Poppy?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:43 | 3676957 thorgodofthunder
thorgodofthunder's picture


Lololololololol. Fools

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:04 | 3677045 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

You missing the bigger picture you stupid fucking palooka?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:37 | 3677267 kito
kito's picture

Bay help me out....because I'm missing this picture.....I'm seeing the fire drill today for my scenario where everything that is bought with dollars gets obliterated....except the dollar itself....if today was a gun shot...the real thing will be thermonuclear...

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:35 | 3677567 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Gold is money kito, and nobody elses counterparty risk is tied to it. The USD is going to burn too....just a matter of when (becasue of crushing debt).

Many countries (BRICS) are moving away from the USD. That is a fact. Gold is solid hedge. Not trying to sell you a bad paper asset or shitty mining stock. 


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:42 | 3676958 FranSix
FranSix's picture

Friday options expire, quarterly at the end of next week, and precious metals on Tuesday:

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:43 | 3676963 chdwlch1
chdwlch1's picture

And right before Gold options expiry quaint/criminal.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:52 | 3676990 CPL
CPL's picture

So what?


Paper ETF's being traded for paper FRN's.  I don't see how this takes PM's from my hands.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:57 | 3677019 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

No, paper ETF's being redeemed for GLD gold to restock the COMEX, or so the theory goes.  Of course, JPM runs both, so these could be just paper entries to keep the bank alive another month.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:15 | 3677075 unwashedmass
unwashedmass's picture


well, if you follow Harvey Organ...he tracks the inventories of GLD and SLV.....and he thinks SLV was drained dry months ago. Only this past week is he saying that GLD is nothing more than a pile of paper. Its amazine. blatant this all is now. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:09 | 3677342 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Given that authorized participants can use Comex paper as physical when creating baskets of shares, I'd be shocked if that wasn't the case. Especially once those same baskets are later redeemed, assuming you are a friend of Jamie's.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:37 | 3677782 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture

Harvey Organ.  LOL.  Next we know you will start quoting Mr Theodore Butler.  Have you ever asked Harvey if he has ever traded a futures contract of anything?  Where's his brokerage account?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:59 | 3677028 Diablo
Diablo's picture

When they cut margins (like they did in nov 2012, dec 2012, AND feb 2013), no one says a word.

But when they hike....on a 7% move...everyone on here cries about 'manipulation'.

This place is comical.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:28 | 3677106 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

You don't coonect the dots on this farce and charade very well, do you?

I know I tried to explain some things to you awhile back but it was like talking to a rock.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:14 | 3677217 Ronaldo
Ronaldo's picture

Sometimes talking to a rock is more rewarding.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:57 | 3677312 Diablo
Diablo's picture

Typical response from conspiracy nuts. Whenever something doesnt go as they say, they always say its rigged.

Ever thought that maybe your investment thesis is wrong? 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:53 | 3677839 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

"Ever thought that maybe your investment thesis is wrong?"


No, but I do think it's past your bedtime little troll. Mom has milk and cookies and a Barney book all ready for you.


Try taking off the fucking blinders already

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:19 | 3677942 Diablo
Diablo's picture

yeah, since youre so wise...what was the price of gold 'a while back' when you were trying 'to explain some things' look at the price of gold today.

do you really think you know what youre talking about? repeating what idiots like mike maloney, max keiser, and whatever other idiotic youtube channel you get your conspiracy...err, i meant 'investment' ideas from doesnt mean you have a clue as to how investing/trading works...and its obviously not working out for you.

may i suggest you take some elementary finance and economics courses (dont worry, high school level ones are probably a good start for you), and when you do youll FINALLY realize that these idiots are just spewing this bullshit to make money off of idiots such as yourself (but youre too stupid to realize that now because youre too concerned with the sky falling). and maybe when you get to the graduate level you can make money when gold goes up AND down, instead of sitting in the corner crying about paper markets and banksters and the cartel. 


Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:07 | 3678099 YC2
YC2's picture

Lol because graduate courses make one a good trader. You obviously have not taken graduate courses, nor are a good trader.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:24 | 3678149 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

You can't spell, you can't form an argument...yeah, I get it troll.

And I'm not crying about anything you stupid fucking douchebag.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:30 | 3678161 Taffy Lewis
Taffy Lewis's picture

Wow, Diablo. Sounds like you bought gold as a quick-hit profit - instead of as an insurance policy - and you got hosed.

I suggest you drink more alcohol - I prefer Tanqueray and tonic.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:41 | 3677137 seek
seek's picture

They hiked margin on a down move. This accelerates the move down and increases its volatility.

The claim on margin changes is always to decrease volatility. The CME lies, Q.E.D.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:35 | 3677568 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture


They hiked margin on a down move. This accelerates the move down and increases its volatility.

The claim on margin changes is always to decrease volatility. The CME lies, Q.E.D.

This event should remove any lingering doubts anyone might have had about the CME.

Just call it another Global MF moment.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:44 | 3676967 moonstears
moonstears's picture

It's gold, bitchez! On sale here!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:57 | 3677018 moonstears
moonstears's picture

Instead of down arrows, tell us what you muthafuckas know, that we do not.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:03 | 3677044 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Who's 'we'? 

Stop using the plural unless you define who you're talking about.  It's creepy.  Better yet, try using 'I' instead.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:38 | 3677129 moonstears
moonstears's picture

Live in your Mom's basement and the world's creepy. Just sayin'

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:39 | 3677131 moonstears
moonstears's picture


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:24 | 3677098 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture

-1 for 'bitchez' and the statement of the obvious

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:24 | 3677382 moonstears
moonstears's picture

Comex will deliver, right? I mean, that's why it's there.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:34 | 3677118 mutty
mutty's picture

CME raised margins in reaction to ATR and vol. It's good for everyone except over leverages assholes, who die a quick death.

Retail investors think in terms of "On Sale".  This strategy backtests with broad indices but is a recipe for the slaughterhouse in individual markets (individual stocks, PM, commodities)."On Sale" implies a knowable price. It's a mirage caused by anchoring.

Gold is getting slammed by overwhelming institutional selling. Putting money to work today is a bet that this selling is over and a bet that the current price is the stable price absent of institutional demand. Institutional memory is about 18 months, so don't expect big money buyers to charge in. It's a lot of maybes and your $$$.


I'm just another anonymous asshole, but I know a strategy that will work better:

Wait for a 100 day high in gold before buying. It has an above-average chance of being right. Bottom fishing has an above average chance of being wrong. Wait for the market to turn.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:45 | 3676968 Diablo
Diablo's picture

But, but, but...what about all those chinese lining up to buy coins....and JPM running out of gold in their vaults...and what about all those short positions??? LOL


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:48 | 3676976 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

50 1oz silver maples ordered. Hope you have fun begging for food as this machine falls apart. Your :smug: won't save you.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:52 | 3676993 IllusionOfChoice
IllusionOfChoice's picture

It's a good day to have dry powder :)

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:30 | 3677107 KnightTakesKing
KnightTakesKing's picture

Yeah, I've got dry powder... been dollar cost averaging since last December. I'm mulling over how much of that powder I should use next week? Wondering if I should wait until mid to end of July to add to the stack...

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:30 | 3677249 Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

Time to pay more attention to Martin Armstrong than Peter Schiff.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:12 | 3677351 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Armstrong seems to have had his wings clipped.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:54 | 3677007 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

pay no attention to the paid trolls.....its all calculated.....and yes, he most likely will feel the ponzi's whip

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:08 | 3677055 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Yeah, diablo reminds me of spaulding smails, mathman, goldenmidddlefinger, johnny bravo, etc....

We've had our shares of these useless pricks since the beginning of ZH. Fuck em all and the horse they rode in on.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:47 | 3677151 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Note that all those guys are gone now....  Couldn't take the heat.  Or the rising price of gold.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:56 | 3677310 fuu
fuu's picture

Yet here we sit at MathMan price levels in silver. We are nearing Roubini levels in gold.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:38 | 3677576 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

True enough fuu....timing is everything and nothing matters until it does.

Anyone wanting some cheap gold or silver was just handed a gift from above, IMO. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:29 | 3677747 fuu
fuu's picture

I'm certainly not complaining about it.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:57 | 3677017 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

If you are serious, it appears we may just be able to get along after all XF. +1

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:20 | 3677372 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

I've found that if you hang around someone long enough, you will usually find something to agree on.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:23 | 3678143 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

It would be presumptuous of you to assume that I inferred any form of agreement with you XF.  :-)  You are a clever one.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:58 | 3677315 Diablo
Diablo's picture

In a little bit i'll be able to buy 100oz at the same price you paid for your 50.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:21 | 3677376 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Cool because that would still be above what i paid for my first 300oz

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:36 | 3677570 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture

That would be if you actually had any money to invest.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:45 | 3677147 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Yes, you're so right.  Ignore that real, and very stable demand for the real metal, of which there's a finite supply.  Everybody knows the REAL market we should all pay attention to is the hyperlevered, hyper-rehypothecated paper market.  JPM running out of gold, why that's just a myth, clearly they can print up gold whenever they need it. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:03 | 3677325 Diablo
Diablo's picture

Your profile says youve been here a while. Look back at old ZH articles...they were saying the same thing about silver and scotia mocatta in 2011. Look how that turned out.

And by all means keep talking about a different price in 'paper' and 'physical'...yesterday you coulda bought ASE's at 2.50 over spot. A few weeks ago you could bought 1 oz gold maples at $40 over spot (both at provident and apmex).  So much for the disconnect between the two markets.

But hey, keep stacking


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:09 | 3677672 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

I think of it as 'saving', not 'stacking', and I just prefer to save in something that the banks won't help themselves to, and that will have value anywhere in the world (except maybe the good ole US of A).  But hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'd be better off saving in USTs, maybe the relationship between money supply/USDebt and the price of gold over time is all bullshit, and the fact that money supply continues to go straight up while 'gold' gets sold off is just coincidence.  Any maybe the fact that the USD's dropped about 95% of it's value since 1913 isn't anything to worry about, maybe its 'due for a rally', and maybe China and Brazil and India, and France and Germany and Russia all getting away from the USD as settlement currency is nothing to be concerned about, and maybe the deficit can stay at 1 trillion/year forever and we just keep printing more money and getting more and more stuff without consequence, and maybe I SHOULD trust the bullion banks after all, because, why the fuck would they lie, it's not like they lie all the time, sometimes they must tell the truth, so maybe this MMT stuff is all true and we can all just get something for nothing forever, and those previous experiments with unbacked currencies all went to shit because THOSE GUYS weren't as smart as our fearless and honest bankers (praise Bernanke) and even though Ben's 'puzzled' by the sudden route in bonds, surely he knows what he's doing and its in our best interest, and maybe Detroit isn't the template for what every city in the US is going to look like in 5 years, maybe there's no consequence at all to letting .1% of the population suck the wealth out of the country and sell off the industrial base to Asia, and convert the country into a bunch of part time waiters serving each other fake food at shitty fast food outlets.  Maybe my whole outlook on this is wrong, maybe I'm just being too fucking negative and I need to embrace the FIRE economy and our Wall Street overlords and our NSA monitors, and learn to fucking love Big Brother.  Thanks for giving me the chance to rethink the whole situation.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:35 | 3677774 Alpo for Granny
Alpo for Granny's picture

Outstanding, Al. Thank you.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:39 | 3678184 Taffy Lewis
Taffy Lewis's picture

Fucking brilliant, Mr. Huxley.

I liked this best:

"maybe the deficit can stay at 1 trillion/year forever and we just keep printing more money and getting more and more stuff without consequence"


Fri, 06/21/2013 - 01:53 | 3678283 Spanky
Spanky's picture


But hey, maybe I'm wrong -- Al Huxely

Takes a man to say that, and face both his doubt and critics.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 02:47 | 3678329 Flagit
Flagit's picture

now is as good a time as any. not completely relatent, but here goes.

anyone ever play an old game called  

Fortress America


still a ways from that, but i cant help but think about it every time i see the word BRICS, Libya, or Iraq.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:45 | 3676969 More_sellers_th...
More_sellers_than_buyers's picture

I am not a commodoties guy by any stretch, but is it possible this can be seen as a desperate attempt to drive down the price? Could a big player come along and really stick it to someone here? I have no idea what to think anymore.  Rules don't matter, history does not apply and supply and demand seem to be irrelavant.  So what happens next?


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:49 | 3676982 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Obviously a planned effort. The mrgins are supposed to prevent voliatility but are only ever changed when it encourages a drastic downward movement.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:17 | 3677694 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture


you are so full of shit.  Margins are by definition performance bonds.  They are not supposed to prevent volatility and your view that they are only changed when it encourages drastic downward movement is reversing cause and effect.  Margin increases occur after volatility.  In the case at hand, the market already experienced downward movement - i.e. volatility - then the margin requirements were increased. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:50 | 3676984 IllusionOfChoice
IllusionOfChoice's picture

When they run out of paper, supply and demand will seem very relevant. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:53 | 3676997 CPL
CPL's picture

Electrons.  Nobody actually prints anything anymore.  It's until the power goes out.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 02:48 | 3678332 Flagit
Flagit's picture

Solar Dollars :)

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:38 | 3677578 StarTedStackin'
StarTedStackin&#039;'s picture

Supply and demand has been forgotten.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:07 | 3677052 sandiegoman
sandiegoman's picture

gold has always been very volatile. GLD makes it even more so as funds can come and go as they please. But I really don't understand those that say buy but then say it is manipulated? Why would you buy a manipulated market? It just doesn't make sense to me. Of course the answer always will be that eventually the game will be over and the manipulators will get theirs. But that can NEVER be the case as they can always settle in cash........

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:51 | 3677158 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Cash is not metal, GLD is not gold.  For one, I don't "play" in the paper metals markets.  Strictly physical.  You have to understand that gold has infinite marginal utility.  Just because I have X number of ounces doesn't mean that I have enough. There is always room for one more ounce.  Just ask Scrooge McDuck.  Pricing is at the margins, true, but one's cost basis can be very different from the current market price for physical metals. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:52 | 3677302 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

No, gold has not always been volatile. I remember in 2001 at the start of the bull market you were lucky to see it to move a dollar or two in a day. Silver a dime or nickel. Flat, or 1% moves were the norm. Gold traded mainly between $250-280 the entire year and only went up 4 bucks from Jan 1st to Dec 31st ($272 to 276). This kind of volatility today is rare

And people buy gold because it's money and a store of value, and has no counterparty risk. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:58 | 3677316 Blano
Blano's picture

You buy a manipulated market because they all are now, you just accept it if you want to play the game, which I do.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:45 | 3676970 Racer
Racer's picture

The sooner it is 100% the better! And then let them try squeezing the longs out...

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:46 | 3676973 Harry Dong
Harry Dong's picture

I'm visiting my dealer next Tues...prices better not start going up until then


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:52 | 3676996 caimen garou
caimen garou's picture

no one selling bullion in my neck of the woods, if I want more I have to buy on line..

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:17 | 3677360 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Soon to be the fate of any shop that sells at these prices. I'll have to stop by my LCS soon to see how his business is doing.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:54 | 3678061 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Local guy here out of all bullion.

NTR delivery running behind schedule.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:51 | 3676986 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Raised margins by 25% two days before options expiration?

There are no coincidences.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:50 | 3676987 Florida Joe
Florida Joe's picture

Hmmmm. Now let me get this striaght. Change rules to raise margins to shake out opponents. Sounds familiar. Where have I heard this before? I will hunt for the answer.





Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:52 | 3676991 ABG LINE
ABG LINE's picture

LOL! YA Gotta be kiddin', right? ? ?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:56 | 3676994 russwinter
russwinter's picture

JPM Morgan and the bullion banksters are long. This move is directed at the aggressive, huge short sellers in this market. With 370,000 contracts trading today, I would guess they are piling on even more short using leverage. The longs are strong hands, and the shorts are gunslingers. This is a bullish development, in fact one for the ages.

Manipulators May Not Be Who You Think.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:02 | 3677037 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:54 | 3677008 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

Some things to keep in mind:

1.  In order for a short to be profitable, they have to have buyers.

2.  Buyers of gold futures (settling in cash) continue to get shaken out. 

3.  In the absence of buyers, what happens to the short?

Consider also, buyers settling in physical, and the implications of a failure to deliver (at least one that goes public).  

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:16 | 3677079 Thisson
Thisson's picture

You don't seem to understand.  The COMEX cannot lose.  They make the rules and they can change the rules whenever they like, as the Hunt Brothers learned (much to their chagrin). 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:24 | 3677097 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Yeah, right. The rest of world will just go along with these bankster gangsters forever and ever. LOL...

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:16 | 3677358 bluskyes
bluskyes's picture

Aaah those Hunt Brothers:

“Just about anything you buy, rather than paper, is better. You’re bound to come out ahead, in the long pull. If you don’t like gold, use silver, or diamonds or copper, but something. Any damn fool can run a printing press.” – Nelson Bunker Hunt

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:55 | 3677011 Hmm...
Hmm...'s picture

perhaps I'm confused, but typically I thought the conspiracy theory was that gold margins were raised when gold was going up too quickly for the TBTF banks/Bernanke/JPMorgaan, etc... and not when Gold was plummeting. 

seems to me that perhaps the CME is consistent, and raises margins when there is volatility (to upside or downside)

on a side note, many of us predicted that Gold may also have been massively supported by all the Bernanke Funny Money, and that a huge amount of the demand may be due to Hediges.  with the equities and other markets in freefall, these Hedgies may need to sell gold to meet Mr. Margin.

it's a repeat of 2008.

On a side note, I"m one of the only people who post here (although I rarely do anymore) who is very very upside down on my Gold Purchases, having bought around (off the top of my head): $1400, $1550, $1620, $1700, and $1900.

Gold is now down for 2.5 years in a row. I'm sure many people will still be "stacking" and "BTD" but if you would have followed that advice over the last 2 years (as I have) you would be very very upside down right now.

and sure, I always have the coins in my safe. But if I wouldn't have done this I'd have much more cash in my Credit Union.

the big question: how much of Gold's CURRENT value is "real" and how much is "fake" due to Hedgies and TBTFs and Central Banks etc.  what's the "real" value?

whoever knows this question will be rich. I'll just sit here and lick my wounds.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:58 | 3677025 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

See note below - margins are ostensibly raised due to increasing volatility, but typically the impact is to squeeze overly exuberant speculators who have traditionally been on the long side of the market - hence the margin increase causes a crash.  HOWEVER, in the current market the specs are heavily short, and the commercials near (or actually) net long, so the exuberance is all on the short side.  Draw your own conclusions from this....

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:01 | 3677033 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

You might be interested the following exchanges earlier today starting here:


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:01 | 3677036 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

BTW, the coins in your safe will be there as long as you don't sell them.  You can give them to your grandkids in the worst case.  The money in your credit union is there until the credit union fails, gets scooped up by a TBTF, and then 'bailed in' to pay for some fucking banker's newest yacht.  But hey WTFDIK?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:09 | 3677057 Hmm...
Hmm...'s picture

true to a point.

but to my knowledge we have not had a bail in in the US since deposit insurance.  I could be wrong.

don't forget that our government confiscated our gold in the GD

and gold has been confiscated by governments at other times as well.

does it mean I'm against gold?  no it's the largest holding I have outside of my house which I own outright without any debt (except property tax).

but I'm realistic as well.  there is no safety from a government gone awry.  and there is no safety from corporations or a mob if there is no government. (life in areas without a somewhat powerful central govt really really sucks)

so in the end, you'll get f*cked by somebody.  pick your poison.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:13 | 3677068 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

FDIC doesn't have anywhere near enough to cover the total deposits in the US.  All I'm saying is that trusting a system that's obviously coming apart at the seams is a bad idea.  Cash under the mattress is probably easier to deal with in the short-term, but there's a reason wealthy families (and hundreds of millions of Asian buyers with near-term experience in currency devaluation and bank instability) store their intergenerational wealth in gold (and NOT fucking GLD or Comex futures - important distinction).

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:14 | 3677070 Hmm...
Hmm...'s picture

I just think people need to realize that one can really be burned owning gold, even for the long time. 

ask anybody who held gold through the 1980s and 1990s.  20 years of stagnant gold that didn't keep up with inflation

can it happen again?  I don't know. 

but I"ll tell you this: I don't think I saw a single person back in 2009-2012 predicting that gold would be in the $1200's in 2013

There's a saying "Don't fight the Fed".  It exists for a reason.  it's not always right, as the Fed can totally take a pounding (and you with it).  but if one would have invested in Stocks when the Fed really started QE foreever they would have seen them go from 666 to 1500+ in just a few years.

and don't get me wrong, it all IS going to come crashing down.  but the Fed and TPTB and TBTF banks will make sure they take us all down with them.  Gold's a good insurance bet.  that's why I haven't sold it.  but man o maneshewitz is it painful

the Fed has somehow engineered an echo bubble in stocks and RE.  bastards.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:22 | 3677091 Thisson
Thisson's picture

It's all perspective.  Think about it this way: do you think the Cypriot Citizens who hold gold are upset that they bought it at 1400, 1600, or even 1800?  The nominal price might be down, but compared to an 80% haircut on their bank accounts they are still ahead!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:39 | 3677269 tao400
tao400's picture

You are totally right brother. I am just hangng in there. What else can you do. You can only look at 2008 for confidence and strength, not Turk or Sinclair who have been wrong so many times on the bottom I can't cou t them

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:12 | 3677063 Tom G
Tom G's picture

As somebody who owns PMs (with zero regret), let me tell you that giving these coins to my grandkids would be best case scenario. Perhaps not from an investment perspective, but from a "the world's financial system did not collapse??" perspective.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:23 | 3677093 Thisson
Thisson's picture

And who can really be unhappy about the opportunity to purchase commodities at below cost!!!!

Silver at less than $20 is a screaming buy.  If gold gets under $1200 that's a screaming buy also.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:28 | 3677105 pursueliberty
pursueliberty's picture

I think gold needs to go much lower than that to make it a true buy with silvers current pricing.  The 65/1 spread is way to great to make it a good idea, if silver drops any more I think we could see sub $1k gold.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:59 | 3677182 Thisson
Thisson's picture

Well, the cost to mine gold is about $1200 an ounce, and the cost for silver is around $20.  The thing is that we know that the silver supply will get consumed if mine production slows/ceases, while gold won't get consumed.  I place more weight on that distinction than on the gold:silver ratio, which I think is relatively unimportant.  What makes you think that the ratio would contract?  It's been higher than the expected 16:1 for a verrrry long time.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:09 | 3677346 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Much as I think times will be 'interesting' when (not if) the whole thing goes tits up, it's time to hit the reset button.

The amount of corruption inherent in the system we suffer under is beyond unacceptable.

Hold on to your metal.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 02:56 | 3678337 Flagit
Flagit's picture

but, but, my friend says a bail-in cant happen here. the people wont tollerate it.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:50 | 3678207 Taffy Lewis
Taffy Lewis's picture


A late comment, but...

For me, having phyz is an insurance policy. I have a nice chunk of silver sitting in a closet that I bought at $32 and I feel very fine about it.

Don't sit and lick your wounds. You did the right thing but maybe you put too much (as a percentage) into gold. From now on, put your excess into cash or assets, which will lower your percent of gold.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 17:56 | 3677014 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Open interest is at record lows, spec position is largely short, commercials net long, and margin calls work both ways (short and long).  There's no doubt that this isn't coincidental, but given the positioning of the various parties, I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that its the long side that's meant to get fucked over here.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:09 | 3677060 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

So you're saying the bad guys are long now because the rocket really is about to take off? Or is this merely another move to rip outsiders off and as soon as it goes up, they will reposition and dump it yet again?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:17 | 3677081 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

I don't know - I suspect, given all the circumstances of the past months, the Cyprus situation, the Fed's insane money supply, the insane unresolvable debts, and the constant drain of the bullion banks' vaults, that this could be the grand finale.  In any case, whether it's the final round or just a big interim one, the one thing I know for sure is the bullion banks aren't playing patsy to the 'genius spec shorts'.  JPM is apparently 80,000oz short of what they're obligated to deliver in June on the Comex, but net long contractually.  I'm thinking that since its their backyard,they have a plan to resolve this situation, and it doesn't involve them defaulting and apologizing to the world for 'selling stuff they don't have'.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:04 | 3677194 russwinter
russwinter's picture

I think you are on to it.  There is also the question of rounding up real gold to pay back leased gold to the Fed and other CBs. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:12 | 3677064 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

You just made my day.

That's actually a really fair point.  Gonna have to think about that some.  Depends on who's positioned how and God knows what THAT Marco-Polo game looks like.  Either way, I think Paulson probably looks like your avatar picture right about now.  Scotch in one hand, other hand propping up his head while uttering "My GOD, what have I done?"


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:00 | 3677031 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

they can do what they want. I prefer the PM market get a solid foundation of strong hands anyway

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:12 | 3677203 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

My friend FreeMkt, we have no market in physical PMs other than what you can find at your LCS or Coin Show.  Have you ever been to one of these shows in Brooklyn Center?   (this is the Northwest Coin Show but is is over until next year)


Here is where you will find the stronger hands.  I have been going to these shows for years.  Some years I am buying and some years not.  I recall 2008-09 when the POG superseded the price of Platinum.  This was the first time this had happened in my lifetime and I believe the first time ever.  I went to the Northwest flush with cash because I was going to buy platinum and lot's of it.  Guess what?  NO PLATINUM FOR SALE ANYWHERE!  These are not your mom and pop dealers as it is common to see COMEX delivery bars there for sale and as I asked around where all the platinum had went and every one of the dealers said the same thing, "We are NOT selling".

Over the years, I have noticed less and less bullion PM's and more numismatics at these shows but they are still worth going to so as to gauge the sentiment.  Internet trolls do not show up at these events because they would actually have to get off Mom's basement couch and actually do/learn something.  If you sit with your eyes glued to every move that the paper PM markets make, you will go insane.  You also get to have some interesting discussions with other stackers and the dealers if you attend a coin show.  Even the smaller local shows are fun to go to and are a great place to start learning.

FWIW, gold would have to go down another $500 before I would take a one cent loss and that only on the last gold coin I purchased.  Silver is different for me but I actively trade physical silver from time to time and have done well on it.  POG or POS isn't the point, it's that fact the we possess it that is precisely the point.  That really seems to bother those fucks at the central banks and it should for several reasons.

Raise margin requirements to 100% and see if I care. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:48 | 3677295 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

I actually think I did go to that show maybe 5-6 yrs. ago with my grandfather. He's the one who got me interested in PMs. I remember buying my first 3 silver eagles from an ad from back of Popular Mechanics he had, for 15.95 each. 


I do want to go to more coin shows. I am a futures/commodities trader at a small prop shop in Chicago, and at my terminal I have gold, silver, crude, euro, ES, and nat gas on screens, so I am well aware of what is going on in them. Today was just blood red. My savings are simply going into phyzz. PMs. I mostly buy silver, and while it was somewhat neat to buy some more so numismatic coins, I'd rather just get the bullion with a trusted stamp on it for a better price. I might still add to my Canadian wildlife collection but am more willing to just buy say 10 ozt. NTR bars from Provident. 

Would like to add some more gold, too, probably from Perth Mint in those fancy green paks with assay and everything. 


Congrats on getting in on the low prices for the PMs. I bought some Ag when it was 40ish, but not a ton. Am thankful to have held out for these lower prices, and maybe lower further is on horizon, but I'm going to be getting in soon here and adding to my stack/lowering avg. cost. It feels awesome to lock in wealth so to speak when one buys phyzz. PMs. I'm fine with trading NUGT or USLV but at end of day my savings are in phyzz PMs. Platinum intriguing but has not been monetary really ever, so probably gold will stick to, aside from the main silver purchases.


And yes, margins, whatever. People with strong hands don't capitulate, and they embrace dips. And people who buy PMs generally 'get' (even if not quite at a ZH level) to at least some degree that the whole works is a sham. PMs=savings and insurance, and they preserve purchasing power over time (and usually enhance it if productivity increases). 




Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:10 | 3677504 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Ahh, I see.  I sell commodities wholesale to certain vendors.(mostly fertilizers)  It's a thrill a minute business to be in but you have to know when to buy, know the competition and what price they are buying at and what they are reselling at to make the market.  So, I don't trade digitz per se on contracts, it's all physical.  Freight is a bitch I tell you.  This is why I study the markets but I look at commodities markets, mainly which are boring as hell, but they have trends based on weather and all of the associated cost inputs.  The only problem is that I am about 100 times better at this than my Florida boy GM.  This guy's decisions have cost us a lot of operating and potential capex funds as a small company.  We need to reinvest in the company and expand, but he pisses it all away on stupid shit and travel.(like his hero Obama)  I am in a hostile work environment I tell you.  I am in negotiations now with another company.  Meh.  Whatever.

That's great that you were able to attend one of those coin shows.  You would remember because once you see what is in a show like that you would never forget.  I too am mostly looking at silver these days because it is a tradeable form of currency that has intrinsic value and is a monetary metal.  I was lucky enough to hit the $49 run up in three selling sequences from mid thirties all the way to the top at which point the bullion bar went.  I got nicked 2 an ounce premium on the sell but I was able to pay for my son's birth costs in cash et al.

Lately however, I am less interested in bullion bar and more so in the coins.  Specifically, I like U.S. dimes at this point because they hold up well to massive spot price fluctuations like we have seen lately.  U.S. Dimes of certain dates also hold up well in the numismatic light as a result of their mintage so you can hedge on BU rolls if you can find them for the right price.  Perhaps the biggest reason I am hoarding dimes, and not that I want to drive the market on them higher,(no one listens to me anyway usually, oh, well, I'm over it), is because how are you going to divide a ~1000 ounce bar easily?  Divisibility is the key facet to consider and unless you plan on starting up a mint of your own, you might have a few issues with making change for that bar.  The same applies for even a loaf of bread on a smaller scale; are you willing to pay one full ounce of silver for 10 loaves of bread that you will not be able to use before it goes stale?  Would a dime for a loaf of bread make sense?


It is about divisibility at this point and reestablihment of sound money as an economic driver for wealth preservation and not a wealth effect.  Never lose focus of that fact.  Good luck on the terminal tomorrow because you will need it. :-/

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:21 | 3677955 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

10 ozt. bars are as big as I'll buy. For silver, that is. Gold even smaller. Maybe 1 ozt. max for Au. 


That's cool you're in the actual bullion business. There are no local coin shops really around Waconia, although Delano has one. My dad is a physician and many years back from x-rays they would actually melt all the silver left from them, via Engelhard, and got some one ounce rounds. Pretty cool. 



Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:12 | 3678108 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Interesting.  I am not in the bullion business per se unless you consider bulk tonnage of fertilizer to be bullion.(sometimes it can be)  PM's I do on my own.  Funny you mention Delano, I am advising Jim on preparation for the MN State Amateur Baseball Tournament in August.  They are all worried about having such a tournament for field conditions but I need to see a commitment from them that enough volunteer help can be raised to keep costs low.  I am donating my time and mileage as this is not a money maker for me.  I'll will have to frequent that coin shop you mentioned at least once because I am sure that they have something that I did not know I really needed.  Good to know folks. 

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 01:02 | 3678229 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Delano takes baseball seriously. That I remember. Sounds like you get involved in a lot of things, including politics from past posts I've read of yours. Kurt Bills was someone who seemed to share the Austrian school/free market/non-interventionist/good values I look for, but sadly the liberals got Klobuchar in. 


MN politics is unbelievable. Al Franken is a senator. Need I say more.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!