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NSA Secret Warrantless Spying Rules Revealed

Tyler Durden's picture


The Guardian has done it once again, this time presenting two July 2009 documents signed by none other than Eric Holder which lay out under what conditions the NSA is allowed to make use of information "inadvertently" collected from domestic US communications without a warrant. The documents detail the procedures the NSA is required to follow to target "non-US persons" under its foreign intelligence powers and what the agency does to minimize data collected on US citizens and residents in the course of that surveillance. "The documents show that even under authorities governing the collection of foreign intelligence from foreign targets, US communications can still be collected, retained and used."

To the NSA's credit, the disclosure shows that data collected on US persons under the foreign intelligence authority must be destroyed, and the extensive steps analysts must take to try to check targets are outside the US, and reveals how US call records are used to help remove US citizens and residents from data collection. The problems are when one sees the cornucopia of FISA court-approved loopholes that can be exploited. Among them:

  • Keep data that could potentially contain details of US persons for up to five years;
  • Retain and make use of "inadvertently acquired" domestic communications if they contain usable intelligence, information on criminal activity, threat of harm to people or property, are encrypted, or are believed to contain any information relevant to cybersecurity;
  • Preserve "foreign intelligence information" contained within attorney-client communications;
  • Access the content of communications gathered from "U.S. based machine[s]" or phone numbers in order to establish if targets are located in the US, for the purposes of ceasing further surveillance.

As the Guardian's Greenwald notes, "The broad scope of the court orders, and the nature of the procedures set out in the documents, appear to clash with assurances from President Obama and senior intelligence officials that the NSA could not access Americans' call or email information without warrants." And more importantly, "The documents also show that discretion as to who is actually targeted under the NSA's foreign surveillance powers lies directly with its own analysts, without recourse to courts or superiors – though a percentage of targeting decisions are reviewed by internal audit teams on a regular basis."

Where it gets more interesting is the disclosure about bulk data collection:

Section 702 of the Fisa Amendments Act (FAA), which was renewed for five years last December, is the authority under which the NSA is allowed to collect large-scale data, including foreign communications and also communications between the US and other countries, provided the target is overseas.


FAA warrants are issued by the Fisa court for up to 12 months at a time, and authorise the collection of bulk information – some of which can include communications of US citizens, or people inside the US. To intentionally target either of those groups requires an individual warrant.


One such warrant seen by the Guardian shows that they do not contain detailed legal rulings or explanation. Instead, the one-paragraph order, signed by a Fisa court judge in 2010, declares that the procedures submitted by the attorney general on behalf of the NSA are consistent with US law and the fourth amendment.


Those procedures state that the "NSA determines whether a person is a non-United States person reasonably believed to be outside the United States in light of the totality of the circumstances based on the information available with respect to that person, including information concerning the communications facility or facilities used by that person".


It includes information that the NSA analyst uses to make this determination - including IP addresses, statements made by the potential target, and other information in the NSA databases, which can include public information and data collected by other agencies.


Where the NSA has no specific information on a person's location, analysts are free to presume they are overseas, the document continues.

And it is here that the biggest NSA loophole emerges: "In the absence of specific information regarding whether a target is a United States person, a person reasonably believed to be located outside the United States or whose location is not known will be presumed to be a non-United States person unless such person can be positively identified as a United States person."

Of course, the "specific information" could be just one google search away, which the analyst determines is irrelevant, and thus no information - specific or otherwise - is available to prevent the cascading series of steps that allow further inquiry into the US citizen's life. Among these are the following:

If it later appears that a target is in fact located in the US, analysts are permitted to look at the content of messages, or listen to phone calls, to establish if this is indeed the case.


Referring to steps taken to prevent intentional collection of telephone content of those inside the US, the document states: "NSA analysts may analyze content for indications that a foreign target has entered or intends to enter the United States. Such content analysis will be conducted according to analytic and intelligence requirements and priorities."


Details set out in the "minimization procedures", regularly referred to in House and Senate hearings, as well as public statements in recent weeks, also raise questions as to the extent of monitoring of US citizens and residents.


NSA minimization procedures signed by Holder in 2009 set out that once a target is confirmed to be within the US, interception must stop immediately. However, these circumstances do not apply to large-scale data where the NSA claims it is unable to filter US communications from non-US ones.


The NSA is empowered to retain data for up to five years and the policy states "communications which may be retained include electronic communications acquired because of limitations on the NSA's ability to filter communications".


Even if upon examination a communication is found to be domestic – entirely within the US – the NSA can appeal to its director to keep what it has found if it contains "significant foreign intelligence information", "evidence of a crime", "technical data base information" (such as encrypted communications), or "information pertaining to a threat of serious harm to life or property".

In other words: the determination is purely subjective and entirely in the eye of the beholder, or in this case in the brain of the Holder's analyst. Such as this:

A transcript of a 2008 briefing on FAA from the NSA's general counsel sets out how much discretion NSA analysts possess when it comes to the specifics of targeting, and making decisions on who they believe is a non-US person. Referring to a situation where there has been a suggestion a target is within the US.


"Once again, the standard here is a reasonable belief that your target is outside the United States. What does that mean when you get information that might lead you to believe the contrary? It means you can't ignore it. You can't turn a blind eye to somebody saying: 'Hey, I think so and so is in the United States.' You can't ignore that. Does it mean you have to completely turn off collection the minute you hear that? No, it means you have to do some sort of investigation: 'Is that guy right? Is my target here?" he says.


"But, if everything else you have says 'no' (he talked yesterday, I saw him on TV yesterday, even, depending on the target, he was in Baghdad) you can still continue targeting but you have to keep that in mind. You can't put it aside. You have to investigate it and, once again, with that new information in mind, what is your reasonable belief about your target's location?"

"Keep in mind" that you are breaking the constitution? Just kidding: after all they are just "protecting" everyone.

The final step in chain of events:

Once armed with these general orders, the NSA is empowered to compel telephone and internet companies to turn over to it the communications of any individual identified by the NSA. The Fisa court plays no role in the selection of those individuals, nor does it monitor who is selected by the NSA.

And that is how, contrary to the administration's lies, virtually anyone can be an NSA target, and absolutely every single American can be spied on without limitation.

Finally, the Eric Holder signed documents can be found here and here for readers' perusal.


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Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:47 | 3677152 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

No surprise; the Police in my town kick in people's doors without warrants all the time.

Even if they get the wrong house the homeowner is left to replace the door and locks.

Police State!  STASI USSA!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:50 | 3677162 Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture

My comment on the Guardian:


"I don't know how you do this, but we need to trim the federal government to about 1/3 its current size. Voting for Ron Paul would have been a decent start. I know most of you will not be able to even consider that, and that is why this will not stop. Brainwashing can take a long time to reverse."

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:02 | 3677191 ghandi
ghandi's picture

Shit. They don't need to get you at your home.

I know a good friend who was told he was being pinched by [insert agency] for looking at "a classified doc." All while camping with an frienemy/agent.

His response: "if its online its not classified."

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:45 | 3677286 phoolish
phoolish's picture

Actually, that is a malware program.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:19 | 3677369 max2205
max2205's picture

2009.  That was a good year

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:37 | 3677419 espirit
espirit's picture

National Stuttering Association (NSA)?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:58 | 3678071 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Happy Bday


On wiki? really?

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 02:10 | 3678302 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Happy Birthday Mr. Eric Holder. Welcome to new Amerika.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 08:54 | 3678719 DaddyO
Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:07 | 3677205 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Better check your brake lines in the morning.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:24 | 3677240 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Every morning.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:08 | 3677340 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

It looks like something the journalist Micheal Hasting forgot to do. He a was obviously murdered by the secret police (CIA or FBI).

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:10 | 3677503 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

That's just what they want you to believe so you don't go doing anything crazy like investigate them.  And there's the fact that it is clearly true. Another conspiracy theory that will be shown to be conspiracy fact, eventually.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:47 | 3678035 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

+1 each

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:08 | 3678054 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Let's see...

He is in contact with a Wikileaks author about an hour or two before about a story on the CIA and tells him that he is being watched by the FBI and the next thing you know he is racing out of control at 100mph  (in a conscious or unconscious condition?) through intersections at a high rate of speed (no brakes?) and eventually hits a tree.

Either he had a death wish, was running from something, or somebody tampered with his brakes/accelerator/steering in  a deliberate attempt to kill him.

On the other hand it is perversely yet slightly reassuring to see that the CIA and FBI can finally work together unlike that 9/11 fiasco of theirs.... and the NSA with it's billion dollar budgets has most helpfully recorded the content of all of his emails and calls for us so we are certain that we will find the killers!

And NO... He was NOT driving a Toyota.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:51 | 3678210 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture



1)  wire the car

2)  make threats

3)  pull alongside car and flash a gun

4)  Hastings takes off like a banshee

5)  push the button/boom & crash


Creates plausible deniability by having him speeding on the street.

If they don't test for explosives then they don't wanna know.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 01:20 | 3678237 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

The tragic death of Mr. Hasting was a form of communication practiced in black ops for years. It was a message being transmitted from TPTB to the press and any potential whistleblowers. The said message was clear and concise, BACK OFF

Cutting the brakes would be an amateur's move. The break light would activate upon starting the car. The optimal method would be to puncture a nail sized hole in the lines going to the front and back brakes. When the brake pedal is applied a few times, the pressurized hydraulic fluid would escape out the holes, and before long, no brakes.

Edit: please don't try this on your ex's car and then point a finger at me. I have enough problems! ;-)

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 12:23 | 3679274 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

There are conspiracy theories that Princess Diana's Mercedes engine and steering drive train control computer was rigged with remote control throttle and steering, by British secret agents, in the fatal Paris tunnel pillar car crash in 1997.

Michael Hasting was driving a Mercedes; speeding out of control, and struck a tree; similar to Diana's speeding out of control Mercedes, which struck a tunnel pillar.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:00 | 3677186 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

Fuck you, NSA.
Sorry, that was inadvertent.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:06 | 3677332 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

No worries, you've just have made Eric Holder & Valerie Jarrett's SHITLIST. /Hahahahahaahahaha

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:36 | 3677415 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

We're all on the list anyway.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:06 | 3677669 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Yep, but who cares when the system is going to reset..

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:00 | 3677320 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

"The documents also show that discretion as to who is actually targeted under the NSA's foreign surveillance powers lies directly with its own analysts, without recourse to courts or superiors – though a percentage of targeting decisions are reviewed by internal audit teams on a regular basis"

shit, I knew law school was a waste

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:11 | 3677349 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture



Well now, goes to show ain't cheap.

Seems the street guys had this figured from the get-go. yaaaaaa, as Jessie would say.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:32 | 3677407 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture




details...all those details...I was going to write something, but Google gust flased a bnch of tits on the left scrrrn and i can' member

ooouuuuuu momma

Google, the PORN KINGS

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:44 | 3677429 Spanky
Spanky's picture


Gotta link?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:30 | 3677754 duo
duo's picture

so if I go to Europe and my wife emails me, does that meain I'm a foreigner and therefore the 4th Amendment doesn't apply?  Slippery slope here.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:48 | 3677154 Everyman
Everyman's picture

There is no rules like "no rules"!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:32 | 3677251 XitSam
XitSam's picture

"information on criminal activity"

With the average American committing Three Felonies a Day, that's everything then.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:14 | 3677354 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

As Lavrentiy Beria (Stalin's secret police chief) said "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime".

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:00 | 3677474 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

"No rules" is a rule.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:49 | 3677155 Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:50 | 3677157 Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:50 | 3677159 Wile-E-Coyote
Wile-E-Coyote's picture

Fuck you NSA............... you won't get us all, then we come for you!!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:49 | 3677160 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

We need to look into the data collected by cable boxes.  Some have cameras and voice detection.  Curiously, many of these products are Samsung, and while not making any claims, it has long been the policy of North Korea to have listening devices in the homes of their people.  Also, the NSA can exchange information with other governments so, the foreign intelligence service can do the spying on Americans and american spying on them and they can swap info legally I believe.  Rabbit hole runs deep muppets.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:34 | 3677259 Spanky
Spanky's picture


Just turn the fucker off.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:00 | 3677653 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Please? -1? 

To whom it may concern: You made my point.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:51 | 3677830 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Put a foam rubber casing around it. I have a 1 inch thick that my cell resides in when the occasion arises.

Maybe a little reverse engineering. It would really be nice to transmit a freq that would make their ears bleed. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:52 | 3677835 monad
monad's picture


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:52 | 3677167 Whalley World
Whalley World's picture

This says it all:



Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:53 | 3677169 Whalley World
Whalley World's picture

and this is fan f'n tastic!!!


takes a while to load, wonder why?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:01 | 3677189 WAMO556
WAMO556's picture


I am not AARP fan, but that was good stylin.

Just saying.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:53 | 3677170 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Brian Williams of NBC calls the NSA spying as "Data Mining".

As usual for the Lying Treasonous Establishment news media.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:58 | 3677179 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

I suppose that would make warrantless door kicking "information gathering".

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:33 | 3677258 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

There was "probable cause".
Made up, like everything else,
of course.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:58 | 3677314 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

NSA whistleblower Russ Tice says they're vacuuming up everything:

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:38 | 3677420 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture

he is another paid off slug.  why???? would you pay him any attention?  Now, that is THE bigger question.

He is such a snot, I hope he doesn't move into my neighborhood...he would be a dead fish out of water.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:56 | 3677172 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Eric Fucking Holder.

I'll bet - nah, I'll go ALL IN - that he ends his illustrious career behind bars.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:40 | 3677273 Debt Slave
Debt Slave's picture

Call me cynical, but based upon what I have seen, I am betting the opposite.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:19 | 3677368 Spanky
Spanky's picture

I'll take your bet, but only if I can manipulate the odds. Gotta put Bernays to work ya'll.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:56 | 3677175 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Why are we getting this from a British news outlet? Where's NBC? Where's FOX?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 18:59 | 3677183 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

NBC protecting the Democrat power base.

FOX protecting the Republican power base.

Two heads on the same hydra; but a great question to be asking.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:02 | 3677190 involuntarilybirthed
involuntarilybirthed's picture

A recent article suggest that US media are clamming up until they figure out the system.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:15 | 3677204 The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

US Media is the 4th arm of the government, they will clam up and distract the masses with actor heart attack stories and people catching baby's falling from 2nd story windows stories. They have no interest in doing any journalism or investigation of this story, if it comes up forcefully they will continue their character assassination.

They are complicit in continuing and upholding this corruption and they should be the first up against the wall during the revolution!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:07 | 3677337 OutLookingIn
OutLookingIn's picture


To be a good journalist;

#1 Tell the truth. The whole truth. Nothing but the truth.

#2 Use the "W5 rule" WHO, WHAT, WHY, WHEN, WHERE.

#3 Play NO favorites. Stick to the facts ONLY.

#4 Protect and never reveal your sources. Under ANY circumstances.

#5 Expose ALL attempts to bribe or coerce your chosen course of action.

Responsible main stream investigative journalism, does not exist in the country. It's dead.

Instead we have talking heads and fluff with very little intellegence attached.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:21 | 3677377 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Journalism? MSM journalism? Fuck, that died a long time ago. I was there. Went to the funeral.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:03 | 3677486 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

W5? I was always taught it as W8:


(to) WHOM








Must be an old school thing, I suppose.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:03 | 3677193 Wile-E-Coyote
Wile-E-Coyote's picture

I see a rift between the UK and the USA, Britain moving closer to Russia.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:13 | 3677215 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

wrong clown

uk and israel,saudi and qatar and france blackmailing or false flagging oblimey obama into syria then iran.

regional pipe lining and a nice big 100 billion imf rebuild credit line to be run from the damascus rothschild central bank.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:04 | 3677326 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

europe needs new energy sources desperately.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:40 | 3677424 espirit
espirit's picture

...or less people.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:43 | 3677428 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

was it WWI that killed 1/4 of british males?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:44 | 3678026 Boxed Merlot
Boxed Merlot's picture

a nice big 100 billion imf...


Please, that's less than 2 months of benny bucks, even calculated in euros.  Besides, numbers have no bearing when you own and control the press.  And the pusher says he'll keep delivering the goods for another year a least.


Now, if you want to start talking Basel AU first tier requirements, it might mean something.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:05 | 3677489 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

If you want to go down that route, work this one out. Hint: Look up the last time it happened, and who was signing what.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:49 | 3677820 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

1781, George III, something about relations between Britain et France. Ça va?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:17 | 3677223 Village Smithy
Village Smithy's picture

They don't cover real news because if they did they would lose their preferred access to the fake news that Washington manufactures to stuff the news channels with.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:32 | 3677253 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

it is part of the psy op sea.

mi6 squeeze

guardian mi5 helping.

pressure from her majesty

the brits and israel need us marines to die in syria NOW.

barry o is going way 2 slow.

just pressure 

black mail of sorts.

the guardian is chatham house lite

chatham house rules

the rothschild world

what what

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:39 | 3677268 Spanky
Spanky's picture


Pearls of wisdom? What about company coverage?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:41 | 3677426 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture



OK Alex: I'll take 500 million on Why are we getting this from a British news outlet?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:36 | 3677995 Boxed Merlot
Boxed Merlot's picture

Why are we getting this from a British news outlet?...


It's in order for the collection to be kosher.   NSA minimization procedures signed by Holder in 2009 set out that once a target is confirmed to be within the US, interception must stop immediately. However, these circumstances do not apply to large-scale data where the NSA claims it is unable to filter US communications from non-US ones.””


Since you’re responding to a “foreign” source, smile. You’re on candid camera.

I guess that means you’ll need to respond to any WB7 contribution with a specific “this is not directed to WB7 or anyone else outside the geopolitical confines of the ‘USA’” preface to your comment. 


Like that would make a difference anyway.


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:01 | 3677178 involuntarilybirthed
involuntarilybirthed's picture

TV Shows like NCIS for example are full of accessing citizens records/accounts, phone calls, locations and are used routinley on any and all suspicious citizens.  Why does it bother people to experience it in real and similiar circumstances?  They don't have a problem with it there?  Maybe that is how we are desensitized to loosing liberties? 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:04 | 3677197 freewolf7
freewolf7's picture

Cause we were asleep.
And now we're not.
Hypnosis. It works.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:32 | 3677246 Spanky
Spanky's picture



You say potato,

I say tomato.

Cause the One-Eyed-God,

He say so.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:27 | 3677243 Spanky
Spanky's picture


Bingo. Technically it's called propaganda.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:42 | 3677265 bread n circuses
bread n circuses's picture

And just like any good hour long drama that comes to an end, as soon as the bad guys' plot is uncovered, there is no possible way that they will continue doing it, right?

We can all rest assured now that we're not being spied on anymore since we now know that they were spying on us, right?

John McClane and Jim Rockford came and took all those bad guys to the magical jail in the sky and we can all get back to what we were doing.

Wow!  That was an exciting episode!  What's on next?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:00 | 3677187 BurningBetty
BurningBetty's picture

Whats that song Muse sings about... 

Yeah, thats right! 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:08 | 3677202 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

the guardian A

m15 or 6 A

bbc A

asange and guardian love in long ago

what did he say about 911 conspiracy lunatics

he said i am bored of those weird theories.

these lone wolf whistle blow shills never say nuttin about israel

nuttin about low yield battle field nukes that have been used in the last 12 years.

donte talk of gaddaffi and the gold

or mr rothschild nuttin

plenty on libya and syria the cia arab spring.

psy op sea

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:41 | 3677239 Dr.Vannostrand
Dr.Vannostrand's picture

+1000 Mr. Wilson

What empire ran Hong Kong after the Opium Wars? Where is Snowden? Why the Guardian? As well as all of your points.

Forget red/blue; christian/jew/muslim; etc.....This goes beyond these trivial things. Look  to the Bauers, old $, bloodlines.

This is all fodder for the plebes. Keep your eye on the ball.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:09 | 3677207 Duc888
Duc888's picture

Gotta love this douchenozzle...


Candidate Obama debates President Obama on Government Surveillance



Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:10 | 3677208 CD
CD's picture

ZerOhead posted this on the CME margin hike thread:

Fuck them? Impossible... they are running 'the show'...

NSA Whistleblower: NSA Spying On – and Blackmailing – Top Government Officials and Military Officers


NSA whistleblower Russel Tice told Peter B. Collins on Boiling Frog Post News (the website of high-level FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds):

Tice: Okay. They went after–and I know this because I had my hands literally on the paperwork for these sort of things–they went after high-ranking military officers; they went after members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and some of the–and judicial. But they went after other ones, too. They went after lawyers and law firms. All kinds of–heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges. One of the judges is now sitting on the Supreme Court that I had his wiretap information in my hand. Two are former FISA court judges. They went after State Department officials. They went after people in the executive service that were part of the White House–their own people. [...]

Now here’s the big one. I haven’t given you any names. This was is summer of 2004. One of the papers that I held in my hand was to wiretap a bunch of numbers associated with, with a 40-something-year-old wannabe senator from Illinois. You wouldn’t happen to know where that guy lives right now, would you? It’s a big white house in Washington, DC. That’s who they went after. And that’s the president of the United States now.

Preview of the podcast from Boiling Frogs Post (hopefully to be released in full alter this week):

I mean, I know it's not exactly surprising, but anyone else seeing the OMFG possibilitites here?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:54 | 3677300 Spanky
Spanky's picture


Posted this in the Who are the Real Traitors thread:


We do not have a majority of people because we do not yet have just cause on our side for revolt. -- JimBowie1958

You're wrong. We've got plenty of just cause right now. But, in addition to being locked out of their MSM, we have no coherent message or voice (other than viva là revoluciòn!).

If you want to beat the elite, you'd better start shaping other people's expectations and getting them on board. Otherwise, the next false flag will target you and their "awakening" either managed or postponed by the usual suspects.

In the face of a forest fire, you either run or fight back, there is no standing still.


The best way for this to be resolved is through the voting system and we should continue that course with all our might till the government leaves us no choice... -- JimBowie1958

While I certainly agree we must use the ballot box, I cannot agree with till the government leaves us no choice, Jim. We need to act poste haste. Next election, if we make it till then. I argued for revoking our consent last election, but... fuck it, apparently financial, economic and social conditions ain't bad enough... Tea Party went corporate and Graeber fucked Occupy...

But what's the forecast? We must front-run it creatively.

It's how we use the ballot box that counts. We ought be actively setting their agenda. Normative politics without the drag of weak candidates -- force their candidates to argue against the Constitution. Make it obvious. Make it educational. Make it funny. Take it viral.

Strategy. Otherwise you risk becoming the elite's newest manichean devil...

Give every citizen something they can do (read our propaganda, watch our documentaries, sing our songs, organize, rally, protest... there is much to do, both useful and busy work for the masses, but you must engage them).

Give them something familiar (Constitution).

Shield them from the street (Vote).

Make it easy for them (No Candidates, No Consent).


Then EVERYTHING changes. We become the majority... -- JimBowie1958

Only if we make it so.


P.S. And yes, Jim, you are right, if we prevail ...governments own agents will turn on the government and help to bring it down. That's the point. Government guns need to be pointing the other direction -- give the brass something Constitutional to hang their hats on...


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:45 | 3677804 tvdog
tvdog's picture

The full podcast is up. I paid $5 to hear it. NSA's data center in Utah is already operational. They are recording every phone call and storing every email in America. They are storing it all forever, not for 5 years. NSA has bugged all 9 Supreme Court justices, the members of the Congressional intelligence committees, the judges on the FISA court, and the President himself (when he was a Senator). Keith Alexander is the most powerful man in the world. He has the dirt on everyone. Go listen.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:48 | 3678040 MiltonFriedmans...
MiltonFriedmansNightmare's picture

Does he have the goods on the Rothchild's or the balls to try and use them?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:11 | 3677211 22winmag
22winmag's picture

A firing squad would be too honorable of an end for Holder and the rest of these criminals. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:15 | 3677220 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The public is asked to believe, that the government demanding corporations lay "cyber-carbon paper" under every communication (guilty or innocent) is not a violation of the Fourth Amendment?

Apparently because the innocent have nothing to worry about, aside from their private conversations being recorded unbeknownst to them?

What part of...

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

...are they having a problem in understanding?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:21 | 3677230 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture


They understand just fine. They just don't give a fuck. And who's going to stop them? You? Me?

I'm getting tired of breathing someone else's air. I want to be free.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:32 | 3677250 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I hear ya bruh, this is Stasi type shit.

But we're breathing free right now by telling them in an open forum (left & right & in between) we aren't going to put up with this horseshit.

Granted, this is just what they will see & record here, not tavern conversations, backyard Bar-B-Q's and the like, they cannot survive without our government/institution can last eating plate fulls of paranoia & deceit like they've been doing lately.

We're gonna be ok, we just can't turn on each other.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:03 | 3677322 Spanky
Spanky's picture


But we're breathing free right now by telling them in an open forum (left & right & in between) we aren't going to put up with this horseshit. -- nmewn

I'm sorry, but that's Bullshit. They can cut off this supply of air at any tim

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:30 | 3677549 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The internet is not the only vehicle of sharing ideas, concerns & knowledge...we used to actually talk to our neighbors ;-)

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:14 | 3677686 Spanky
Spanky's picture

I agree. But the internet conquers distance and makes coordination and communication "easy". Remove it and we become isolated communities and *much* easier to manipulate. Necessary alternatives ought be explored.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:28 | 3677740 nmewn
nmewn's picture

They're not going to shut down the internet & worldwide communications, they're paranoid voyeurs at

On the one hand, they've got everyone right where they want them. On the other, they can't stand what we say...but still can't wait to see the next thing said about them.

Their weakness is our strength...feed the beast till it pops ;-)

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:11 | 3677890 Spanky
Spanky's picture


feed the beast till it pops ;-) -- nmewn

First time I read it as "feed the beast till it poops..."

[Edit] And the former depends on how great a threat is posed. When risk [clearly rising political challenge] outweighs reward [sigint analysis]. Can always turn or undercover the locals...

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:08 | 3677341 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

you got it, they're testing us, all of us and they know this is a blatant break on the rules

and your last line is the most important - that's the other place they're winning.

it's raining here in the NW, how's the florida weather? 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:25 | 3677543 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So far so good (on the weather) summer afternoon type stuff in the heat of the day.

I dunno on the separation/wedge though, they're good at it, yes, but it seems to me like its drawing us closer together. This is something everyone can understand and line up against.

For example (from my perspective) the IRS was clearly unleashed on political opponents, anyone with half a brain understands with TPTB gaining access to EVERYONES communications its only a matter of time before the tables would be turned on an inter-departmental Stasi level.

We have a real opportunity here to destroy the Patriot Act, DHS, K-Street lobbyists and the IRS...if...we play our cards right. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:18 | 3677699 Spanky
Spanky's picture


We have a real opportunity... if...we play our cards right -- nmewn

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:45 | 3677805 samsara
samsara's picture

It all needs uninterrupted power distribution being created by low cost fuel, and satellites.

With the down slope of EROEI (energyreturnedonenergyinvested) says that THEY are running out of time, And time is on OUR side.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:15 | 3677923 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Unless their stage-managed political events overtake us...

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:16 | 3677222 kahunabear
kahunabear's picture

This post has way too many words! I can barely keep focused on a text or a tweet. Can someone condense this down into a sentence for me??

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:18 | 3677226 The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Maybe you should try getting your news from Twitter....

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:25 | 3677238 therearetoomany...
therearetoomanyidiots's picture

Or NBCCBSFOXABCCNN, they'll let you know about the extremely important Lebron James game tonight.

You don't even have to think about this type of shit.  Too fucking monotonous, requires too much thought time.  Miller lite with Vortex bottles and hot chix   Yeah!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:37 | 3677575 TuesdayBen
TuesdayBen's picture

Try USA Today

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:23 | 3677233 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

You are being sarcastic, right?

One sentence:  "Drop your pants and bend over.  Now."

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:08 | 3677339 kahunabear
kahunabear's picture

I don't do the Bernanky Panky.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:42 | 3677277 I am on to you
I am on to you's picture

Ill try:

60 years,being, at the right place,at the wrong time,this is how it feels, to be on this planet!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:05 | 3677328 Spanky
Spanky's picture

You're fucked. BOHICA.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:20 | 3677228 Village Smithy
Village Smithy's picture

None of this can be true because Vice President Chaney said that Snowden was a liar.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:23 | 3677235 therearetoomany...
therearetoomanyidiots's picture

Soooooo?   This is obama, it's cool.   Have another hit and pass it over to me.  

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:07 | 3677334 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Is he bogarting again?

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:25 | 3677241 jjsilver
jjsilver's picture

US citizens, residents and non US persons are all legal terms that people should know the definition before associating themselves with such terms

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:36 | 3677262 MFLTucson
MFLTucson's picture

And they call Snowden a traitor.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:40 | 3677271 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Waterboard Holder. Get him to declare who he gets his instructions from and how he gets paid.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:48 | 3677815 monad
monad's picture

He gets his paycheck from the IMF. Ask him why he aids and abets the criminals...

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:43 | 3677281 phoolish
phoolish's picture

I'm sure it says there are no rules.



Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:46 | 3677288 phoolish
phoolish's picture


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:50 | 3677296 cherry picker
cherry picker's picture

From insider trading to who is fucking around with who, nothing is hidden or forgotten.

Make one stupid mistake in your life and .gov along with the MSM will see to it that it is not forgotten nor forgiven, except if you are President or a Sports Hero, they can get away with murder and some.

Funny thing is they say God can forgive and forget and the almighty greenback says on it "In God We Trust", but from what I read, God has nothing to do with any of these issues, but the apparition with the funny horns and tail seems to be ruling this republic of late.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:14 | 3677352 Spanky
Spanky's picture


Got to laugh.

Just got a call from some bozo claiming I owe a parking ticket from 2001 in another county. Wanted me to make it right immediately, on the phone, or my driver's license might be suspended.

Wait one buddy, and I'll just get my card out. Gotta put you on hold...

Just can't make this shit up.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:51 | 3677445 espirit
espirit's picture

How about the bozo out of the blue asking how many miles on my truck?

Hold on while I check, it's in the drive - lol.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 19:51 | 3677301 bread n circuses
bread n circuses's picture

I can't decide which kind of response to this scandal disturbs me the most.

1.) Those who say (and truely believe) that they think Snowden is a traitor and the governement needs to be able to spy on citizens in order to keep us safe.  The "If-you-have-nothing-to-hide-you-have-nothing-to-worry-about" crowd.


2.) Those who accept this kind of chicanery as just part of the deal:  "Yeah. duh.  That's what governments do.  What are you so upset about?"  The "If-you-have-something-to-hide-you-better-be-damned-good-at-hiding-it" crowd.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:29 | 3677394 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

I'm most disturbed by the apathy.  I just got back from a trip between LA & SF on which I asked my seatmates what they thought of "the whole NSA thing."  Of the four people I asked: 

Oil Truck Driver from Iowa; about 35 or 40 years old.  Didn't know what NSA stood for, much less understand the issue at hand.  When I told him it's about the government unconstitutionally recording and saving all email and phone mail, he said "if you have nothing to hide . . . "  I said he wasn't the one who got to decide whether he had something to hide, and at least he did laughingly agree.

Medical Device Saleswoman from Chicago; about 35 years old.  Knew exactly what is going on and said "they've gone too far."

Banking Executive from SF; early 30's in age.  Said he "hadn't really been following it."  Seemed uninterested when I told him what I told the truck driver.  He spent his trip reading the NY Times.

Hot Chick from LA; about 25.  Didn't have a clue; didn't care.  But she's hot.  And from LA; so that's enough, I guess, for the next few years at least.

Basically, we have the government that they deserve.  Time for a drink or two . . .

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:24 | 3677425 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you should have been asking these questions in the late 80s and early 90s, when it was being planned and implemented. Lotsa people and .orgs warned you. EFF among them. 

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:15 | 3677355 Hannibal
Hannibal's picture

All this NSA spying shit is for one purpose only: TO KEEP THE TRUTH FROM COMING OUT INTO THE OPEN, from the assisinations of JFK, RFK, MLK, MalcomX and others, TWA-800, 9/11, Torture, Secret Prisons, Wall St Crimes, CIA drug running, on and on. but WTF it's just my opinion!

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:21 | 3677375 Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

Everybody take a picture and flood the 'Net....


Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:21 | 3677950 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Sorry, don't own one.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:26 | 3677389 MaxThrust
MaxThrust's picture

From every conor of the world, hundreds, thousands, will rise up and take their places against you. Not even Stasi NSA can kill that fast

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 20:55 | 3677457 tvdog
tvdog's picture

By posting those 2 PDF's, Tyler is putting himself in danger.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:13 | 3677506 object_orient
object_orient's picture

Or it's a honey trap, and now YOU are in danger. Maybe ZH got a Section 215 order:

From EFF:

"Section 215 allows the FBI secretly to order anyone to turn over business records or any other "tangible things," so long as the FBI tells the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) court that the information sought is 'for an authorized protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.' These demands for records come with a "gag order" prohibiting the recipient from telling anyone, ever, that they received a Section 215 order."

My theory is, because ZH can't tell anyone about the FBI's record request (gag order), the retarded "no racism" policy was enacted to drive away the last decent folks around here.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:26 | 3677725 Spanky
Spanky's picture


That's the beauty of it. You just never know.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 23:04 | 3677878 tvdog
tvdog's picture

Meh. They already watch me. Kind of annoying them messing with my debit card, though, I wish they'd stop that.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 12:01 | 3679430 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

You must be lying, as I cannot find "FISA" court in the Constitution or Bill of Rights.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 21:12 | 3677512 mendigo
mendigo's picture

The three great heros of this decade (I propose) are Joe Darby, Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden for exposing the US government for what it really is. Whatever thier motivations may have been, they have done us a great service and may contribute to a more positive turn of events. It is incredible that the general public seems to take this info in stride and likewise the ny times. If the Nobel peace prize really meant anything they would request that obama return it and give it to these people and other similarly brave individuals.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:28 | 3677745 samsara
samsara's picture

At least an Honorable Mention for Aaron Swartz

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:28 | 3677742 Spanky
Spanky's picture



Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:26 | 3677728 samsara
samsara's picture

And the hits just keep coming.

Edward's Fireside chats each week.

Thu, 06/20/2013 - 22:55 | 3677842 monad
monad's picture

The President's Analyst

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:34 | 3678173 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

More big lies I see.

I think it would be fair to say that more and more people are at, or very close to the propaganda saturation point, and I expect to see diminishing marginal returns for each new unit of propaganda going forward. Bernays played a trick on us, but now people see how the trick is performed and it's becoming banal to see it performed over and over with decreasing effectiveness. As a prime example, one could read Thomas Friedman's hand-wringing over at the NY Times. Look at this disaster in reasoning:

"I worry about that [another 9/11] even more, not because I don’t care about civil liberties, but because what I cherish most about America is our open society, and I believe that if there is one more 9/11 — or worse, an attack involving nuclear material — it could lead to the end of the open society as we know it. If there were another 9/11, I fear that 99 percent of Americans would tell their members of Congress: “Do whatever you need to do to, privacy be damned, just make sure this does not happen again.” That is what I fear most."

You have to hand it Friedman, he does know how to tell the really big lies. News flash Tom: Congress can't change the Constitution unilaterally, it requires ratification by the states. Also notice how 9/11 is completely unquestioned and in fact is taken as a predicate for all the rest of his conclusions, despite the fact that it's looking like an awful lot of conspiracy theories have been shown to be conspiracy facts lately.

As to his main point, Friedman might want to ask: did Congress hear the 99% when they showed up on Wall Street and around the country? No, not at all. So please Tom, tell us why Congress is willing to give upwards of a hundred billion dollars to spooks when the citizens are clamoring for "safety," but when we clamor for jobs, better wages, equal treatment under the law, and most importantly, ending the rapacious behavior of Wall Street and the Fed, we get pepper sprayed, arrested, surveilled, conspired upon, and in several cases, targeted for assassination by the same government that you seem to believe is responsive to the people?

Why is that Tom? Do you think it has anything to do with all the files the NSA has collected on our Congressional reps and major judges and used it just like laying a gun on the table?

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:46 | 3678197 Spanky
Spanky's picture


You rock.

Uhh, wanna get some coffee, later? I know a place...

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 19:50 | 3680964 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture


Is it in Venice?

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 21:18 | 3681190 Spanky
Spanky's picture


Close enough.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 00:50 | 3678212 Judge Crater
Judge Crater's picture

John McTiernan, the director of the movies "Predator" and "Die Hard," among others, is in prison now for allegedly lying to an FBI agent answering a question during a phone conversation in the evening.  McTiernan said he had dealings with Hollywood private investigator Anthony Pellicano once.  The FBI said it was twice and under section 1001, "The Lying To The FBI Act," McTiernan was guilty of a crime.  McTiernanwent up to the US Supreme Court to fighjt his conviction, the Supremes ignored the case and now McTiernan is in his third month of a one year sentence in a minimum security federal prison in North Dakota.  On the other hand, when Holder and Clapper lie to Congress repeatedly, no one does anything.  Talk to pitcher Roger Clemens about the double standard in the USA system of justice, with those on top immune from prosecution. 

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 01:10 | 3678240 Al Trueman
Al Trueman's picture

The word "loophole" is a little too gentle.  Its use implies that there was some original intent to actually contain, restrict and regulate, and that the loophole was an honestly unintentional oversight.

But to use that term for that FISA / FBI malarkey is like saying that a SEIVE is a BUCKET ... with loopholes.

The so-called loopholes in those regulations aren't oversigts .  They are the originally intended purpose of the whole exercise.

The two documents under discusion and all the rest of that dog's breakfast called the FISA Amendment Act ,  are the deliberate codification and description of the "loopholes" neccessary for circumventing the known  real  laws that NSA and Holder and the gang foresaw as potentially problematic .  The legalese sounding language written around those "loopholes " is just decoration, camouflage , distraction and other , coarser , words that mean the same thing .

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 02:48 | 3678331 headless blogger
headless blogger's picture

Boycott Dell. Dell is one of the companies named that are using "contractors". Dell is making its money in the data center business, as well as its security business (Secure Works).

They're a bad company all around. Boycott when you can.

Fri, 06/21/2013 - 07:29 | 3678517 esum
esum's picture

why is Booz involved in the process AT ALL? all the restrictions above mention NSA. i DONT SEE ANY REF TO OUTSIDE IC's. Booz is simply a means of INSIDERS milking th taxpayer charging $5 for $1 of service.

You want to stop leaks: 1. enforce existing laws 2. put every sensitive position (access to TS and above) on a polygraph and 3. administer random drug tests. 4. hold violators accountable.... 


Fri, 06/21/2013 - 13:43 | 3679808 cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

Polygraphs are BS and so are you.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!