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Where Are We Now? - A World View

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by James Howard Kunstler via,

Wondering why the money world got its knickers in a twist last week? The answer is simple: the global economy is breaking apart and its constituent major players are doing face-plants on the downhill slope of a no-longer-cheap-oil way of life.  Let’s look at them case by case.

     The USA slogs deeper into paralysis and decay in a collective mental fog of disbelief that its own exceptionalism can’t overcome the laws of thermodynamics. This general malaise precipitates into a range of specific quandaries. The so-called economy depends on financialization, since it is no longer based on manufacturing things of value. The financialization depends on housing, that is, a particular kind of housing: suburban sprawl housing (and its commercial accessories, the strip malls, the box stores, the burger shacks, etc.). Gasoline is now too expensive to run the suburban living arrangement. It will remain marginally unaffordable. Even if the price of oil goes down, it will be because citizens of the USA will not have enough money to buy it. Lesson: the suburban project is over, along with the economy it drove in on.

     But so is the mega-city project, the giant metroplex of skyscrapers. So, don’t suppose that we can transform the production house-building industry into an apartment-building industry. The end of cheap oil also means we can’t run cities at the 20th century scale. That includes the scale of the buildings as well as the aggregate scale of the whole urban organism. Nobody gets this. For one thing, there will be far fewer jobs in anything connected to financialization because that “industry” is imploding. The recent action around the Federal Reserve illustrates this. When chairman Bernanke’s lips quivered last week, the financial markets had a grand mal seizure. He floated the notion that his organization might “taper” their purchases of US government issued debt and mortgage-backed securities — the latter being mostly bundled debt originated by government-sponsored entities and agencies. That’s the “money” that supports the suburban sprawl industry.

     If the Fed were to reduce its purchases of this debt paper, nobody else would buy it. The reason the Fed buys the quantity it does in the first place ($85 billion-a-month) is that nobody else would touch it at the offered zero interest rates. The US Treasury and the mortgage bundlers could only sell the stuff if they paid higher interest rates. But the US government would choke to death on higher interest rates because its aggregate debt is so huge and the scheduled interest payments so gigantic that a one percent increase would destroy even the fantasy of economic equilibrium.

     Apart from that unhappy equation, entropy never sleeps. Everything in America except the Apple stores and a handful of big banks is falling apart — especially the human habitat and households. Suburbia will only lose value and utility. Big cities will have to get smaller (ouch!). Tar sands, shale oil and shale gas will not ride to the rescue (they cost too much to get out of the ground). The entire declension of government from federal to state to local will be too broke to fix the roads and make “transfer payments” to idle, indigent citizens. This populace will lose faith in their institutions… and disorder will eventually resolve in a new and very different disposition of things on-the-ground. If we’re lucky, this will not include cruel despotic leadership and war.

     If the “taper” talk is empty rhetoric, and the Fed continues sopping up issued debt, it will eventually destroy the credibility of its issued money. That is just another way of going broke, though it might beat a shorter path to the general loss of legitimacy of governments and other institutions.

     Young people, harken: prepare for careers in agriculture and activities that support it. Consider moving to small towns in parts of the country where farming is possible and get ready to rebuild a very different economy.  Also, consider repudiating your college debt en masse, since the fantasy of repayment is but another mental shackle holding you back from your future.

     As for the other parts of the global economy, a digest:

     Europe doesn’t have enough oil and gas to run itself. Its suppliers (Russia, various Islamic states) are all basically hostile to it. As the late, great Tony Soprano might say, “end of story.” Europe has been playing financial pocket pool with itself for five years with credibility ebbing. Soon Europe will descend into painful economic re-set. Its era as the go-to theme park of advanced civilization is ending. Go there while it’s still possible and take some snapshots of what comfort and artistry used to look like.

     China is imploding under the weight of its half-assed crony command economy and banking system. Nice try. Cookie fortune says, “Industrial era entered too late in game.” All else there is desperation: e.g. the idea of moving hundreds of millions of peasants into new cities. As Tony would say, “Fuggeddabowdit.” They’re better off growing bok choy en situ. Anyway, no one should assume that China can remain politically stable. Let’s hope that its economic and political crack-up doesn’t transmute into war.

    Russia’s oil production is in permanent decline. It has a lot, but it gets most of its income from selling it to other people. Hence, Vlad Putin’s notion of finding something else to base Russia’s economy on. Like…what? I don’t think they’re going to replace China in making salad shooters. Farming would be the way to go, and Vlad’s government is hoping that global warming improves Russia’s prospects for doing more of that. In any case, Russia might benefit in the long term by not selling off all of its oil and gas — though Western Europe would surely suffer from that decision. On the plus side, Russia’s government is not crippled by idiot squabbles over abortion, gay marriage, and the Bible in schools.

     Japan. Sorry to repeat myself. Going medieval. They have no oil and gas. (Cue Tony Soprano again.) In the event, Japan’s financial hara-kiri will drag down the rest of the world’s banking system — or at least hasten the damage already self-inflicted elsewhere around the globe. I’m also informed that much of the essential computer chip fabrication in the world still happens in Japan, and that will go away, too, as the Japanese engine seizes, smokes, and expels its final belch of CO2.

     What else is there? South America? Think: spreading jungle (or desert, take your pick). Canada? There’s an idea. Maybe Labrador becomes the new Hamptons? Second biggest national land mass… 30 million people (2 percent of China’s population). Only one drawback: the view to the south.


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Mon, 06/24/2013 - 12:25 | 3687387 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

JHK on the Hedge...

Stranger bedfellows have rarely ever been seen...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 12:32 | 3687425 maskone909
maskone909's picture

all of this shit...  worldwide default risk....  and gold cant catch a fucking bid!?!??!?!  WTF

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 12:36 | 3687445 ndotken
ndotken's picture

Hey it was a fun ride ...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:02 | 3687564 espirit
espirit's picture

I've got my $INDU 14400 hat on.

Which way will it go from there?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:11 | 3687592 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

how long should i hold my breath waiting for the frat boy with the degree in geography to repudiate his college debt and begin milking goats and growing turnips? so that i can top off my larder for the winter.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:25 | 3687681 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

there are many, many smart younger folks turning their backs on the "financialised" states, and investing their lives in a return to true values.

if you value your food, and seek to feed yourself and family in a more traditional, healthy way, you might want to contribute to these folks venture.

Farmstead Meatsmith

the videos are true quality, as is their mission for their families. . .and they link them for free.

go on, share.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:44 | 3687803 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Me fears if the author is even half-correct, there won't be much left upon which to grow a turnip.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:48 | 3687824 Shocker
Shocker's picture

Its just all starting to come together now. Recovery is something the US hasn't been in.


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:16 | 3687982 franzpick
franzpick's picture

"Capt'n Bernocchio, Control, what's your flight status?"

"Control, Helo 1, good news and bad"

"What's the bad news?"

"We're lost"

"What's the good news?"

"We're ahead of schedule"

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:37 | 3688339 TerminalDebt
TerminalDebt's picture

All those types running to the hills now to farm will be back when they are 60, begging for free health services.

There's probably 3 billion people on the doom train ahead of any one here.

You'll know years before it happens

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:10 | 3688462 Race Car Driver
Race Car Driver's picture

> All those types running to the hills now to farm will be back when they are 60, begging for free health services.


An apple a day ... .


Jeezuz - how in the FUCK did we make it to this pinnacle of civilization over the last thousands of years without fucking HEALTH SERVICES?

I junked ya for being a dumbshit douche-bag and thinking we have years to go in this ridiculous cartoon of a system as it is. We don't. It can't. 

And your loser ass prolly couldn't grow dandelions anyhow.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:50 | 3688601 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

mmmmm, dandelions!

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 19:57 | 3688997 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

As money moves, it will eventually circle back to the one place which it knows it can be contained, Real Estate (History shows us this is always the case). I say "contained" and not 'Profited' because even though prices may crash, containment means it is preserved as a physical reality when all else around it burns and turns to ash in the wind. This is when money will be thinking about its’ kids, not short term returns (preservation).

I personally believe 'now' commences the time to go back up the property ladder as other assets get hammered and the wealth pinch builds (before the shift).

I strongly recommend people consider re-entering the Real Estate space just after the next pull-back. Lock in a low rate for a very lengthy period. Quality Estates you will live in, not rentals in slums whose returns are determined by the occupants ability to keep employed (Ba-Bouw!).

Or, you can forego taking a chance of rates rising and take the risk with the pull-back in price, instead (Bird in the hand).

This should be done after you have accumulated and secured your Gold cache'.

You will need a minimum of 20oz Gold for every $1M in Equity/Debt (treat them as the same thing).

When/If real estate prices take another hit, expect that your bank may come knocking on your door if your Investment Property LVR goes south. If they do, disclose that you have hedged with physical Gold and give only figures which allow that hedge to cover the estates/s (no more). Say it's secured elsewhere and that's nonnegotiable. One day you will move to the top of the Cat1 lender list and placed on speed dial for future investment borrowing.

Give your bank lender a call every year, asking to be informed of quality distressed estates which are on the bank’s books. This will really make sure that you’re on speed dial.

Remember this: If you have Freehold Titles you are of no use to the Bank. They want you to owe them. Likewise, you need to owe them to get ahead otherwise you’re working money for time. So, even a small mortgage is better than none (I know it sounds stupid but put yourself into their shoes).

If a property comes up which you cannot let go-buy, renegotiate your current mortgage and lock in an even smaller rate. Declare that you have more Gold as collateral as well as equity. Initially they won’t care and will wonder as to why you even state it, but there is method to the madness.

Initially they won’t care if you have Gold or not and may even give you a strange look, but this mentality will be phased out slowly over time. Establishing this knowledge with your bank at an early stage is critical for your future lending capacity (I have already done this. I declared that I have 10% of the current mortgage value as physical). Later, as Gold soars and the mind-shift progresses, this initially dismissible asset will become important. Your bank lender will/should remember your 10% position, hit that speed dial, and enquire if you wish to purchase another property. This is when you declare you in fact have 20% (let them think you have more when you're only riding the price increase) which you wish to combine with the current equity, and are looking toward another investment purchase.

Use your Gold wisely. Have a Boating accident by all means, but make the stuff work for you. Playing Treasure Island is for fools. As the toxicity circulates through the banking system those with high quality assets, especially Gold, will have sterilised portfolios (mortgages), and will be viewed as such. Work the system and make it work for you!

The politico-financial foreplay period has finished, it's time for sex. Put on two condoms; the system is a cesspool.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 20:02 | 3689193 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

for those choosing to tackle the dreaded compound interest monster, that's some excellent advice to consider, mate.   

a local bank would be best, no?   not too wise for anyone to let a TBTF know you got a stash o'shiny lying somewhere.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 20:24 | 3689217 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

No, on the contrary, TBTF Banks (JPM, Citi, HSBC) will be the first to recognise the value of a member who hedges with Gold, and, they are still safer by nature. This is their Gig, yeah?!

Remember, it's not YOUR savings here, it's THEIR Fiat being lent to you. So, the bigger the bank the better.

Go with a bank which has been manipulating the Gold space because they know the true value of Gold (today, not when the mind-set changes), and their staff will be re-educated first, and you'll be on speed dial immediately. They will also be the banks which trigger/kick the Gold price back up when the time is right, so, really, they have gone from foe to friend.

Everyone needs to recognise that the game and the players have now shifted. Those who were Short and viewed as the enemy are now long and should be viewed as your friend. They only did that so as to build a vault position, not to target you specifically.

A month ago a Gold Bug had many enemies, now those enemies are many friends. The enemy, NOW, is the general public; you want to use your Gold to buy what they have, at rock-bottom prices, and to do so using money of your former enemy (JPM etc).

Let go of all that you believe, leave them as lessons, and start learning the new game which you are already standing in and has already commemced....which many here cannot yet see.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 20:25 | 3689260 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

interesting thesis, planks.   vedddy interesting.   thanks for sharing.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:39 | 3689494 rocker
rocker's picture

Great Insight TwoShort.  TBTB who have the position and captial to manipulate any market are doing so with purpose for themselves.

Jamie Dimon told us he gets the best price for his clients when liquidating, LOL on that one too.

Jamie, afterall, will either head the FED or the Treasury.  This is his end game which the implications have not been seen yet.

Look Out Above and Below.  Food for thought, What was that vault that JPMorgan took ownership of a year ago for anyway. Hmmmm.

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 01:10 | 3690047 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

You don't own shit if you don't pay your property tax. You are and always have been at the mercy of the King (no, not Elvis).

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 00:46 | 3689988 Ctrl_P
Ctrl_P's picture

TSP. This is posibly one of the most considered and flexible responses to a currency crisis I have ever read. It outlines a dynamic process as the SHTF and gives sound reason to changing assessments.

Is also similar to some ideas that I have come up with. Namely using the stack to purchase priority realestate like farmland. Co-op leasing it out and the rest. Nice to know that I really am as thick as...



Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:16 | 3689413 Moe Hamhead
Moe Hamhead's picture

this message has been brought to you by the NAR

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 00:34 | 3689955 Matt
Matt's picture

When he says real estate, does he mean 10+ acres of arable land far away from a city, or does he mean an 1/8 acre lot in Detroit? One is an asset, and the other is a liability ...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 19:57 | 3689173 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

Skeeter on ZH!  how delicious...

he should do a guest post, yes?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:33 | 3688730 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

dandelion tea for everyone....

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:47 | 3688778 Dadburnitpa
Dadburnitpa's picture

When I was very little I used to pick dandelion leaves in Missouri with my grandad to make a salad with vinegar and oil.  It was good and he lived to be 97. 

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 18:02 | 3688820 duo
duo's picture

dandelion leaves  have 20-50 more vitamins and antioxidants than spinach.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 18:56 | 3688989 Five8Charlie
Five8Charlie's picture

Dandelion wine fermenting in the basement as I type....

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 20:03 | 3689195 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

what'd did you use?  

leaves, flowers or roots?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:27 | 3688704 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Long on Mass Transit and High Rise Tower Inner city Factories.

NWO Agenda 21 plan ?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:53 | 3688159 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

"Big cities will have to get smaller"

Detroit, leading the world to a better future in the 21st century.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:16 | 3688238 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

ZH should just post a Talk Amongst Yourselves article with nothing in the body so I can straight to the comments without feeling like I missed anything.  

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:03 | 3688442 true brain
true brain's picture

Funny. A man who can laugh especially at himself is a good man.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:29 | 3688714 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

School Daze guided discussion.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:21 | 3688267 ATM
ATM's picture

Where are the 700.000 Detroit residents going to go?

What are they going to do when they get there? They are already a lawless, dangerous bunch. I don't suspect when they go looking for something better that they're willing to work for it.

But perhaps that's the plan.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:14 | 3688674 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

Let's send them to California.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:39 | 3689493 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

They should come to Chicago.  Real Estate is BOOMING Dawg.  Check out this "Fixer-upper"?  Only steps from President Obama's house.  You're practically Royalty!  Serious offers only.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:40 | 3689501 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Los Angeles will swallow them up and you'll never hear from Detroit again.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:01 | 3688635 spekulatn
spekulatn's picture

Thanks for sharing Cathartes Aura.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 18:25 | 3688893 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

my pleasure - their vision is so creative, inspiring, it's hard not to share it with others.

this is how we survive the crazy - supporting community, even virtual ones.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 19:52 | 3689170 PKF
PKF's picture

I really need to stop eating meat.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:53 | 3688157 Renewable Life
Renewable Life's picture

The laugh I got from this one, is the reason I read ZH!!

Whats no laughing matter, is the underlying truth in this statement! Whats this bitch going to look like when millions of little "wolf of wall street" wannabe's realize its all bullshit and they missed their window at glory??  I dont think farming for a living, will make them happy!  And the rest of us, who farming does seem like a good idea, better have lots of ammo!

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:13 | 3688478 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Kind of a WW Z

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:10 | 3688208 Lore
Lore's picture

Kunt gets too much credit. His snide, sassy eloquence may be suited for collapse porn, but his stubborn ignorance of the corrective action of markets is like fertilizer to a new generation of aspiring lobbyists and control freaks in junior government positions. Attend one of his lectures and see: communitarians love him.  Token disclaimors notwithstanding, Kunt pushes for a command economy, just what the big government doctor ordered to implement "sustainability" Agenda 21.  Kunt is a herald for Big Green Brother. In his way, he's no better than the groups that he mocks for profit. 

He dates himself with archaic references to "global warming." Backed into a corner by scandals and junk science, purveyors are resorting to the more nondescript "climate change."

"Tar sands, shale oil and shale gas...cost too much to get out of the ground." MARKETS WILL DECIDE, NOT HIM. 

"Suburbia will only lose value and utility." MARKETS WILL DECIDE, NOT HIM.

Enviropaths see the future of America in banks of Chinese-style government-subsidized "Stack 'Em And Pack 'Em" apartments. It should be interesting to revisit some of these "densified" neighborhoods in a few decades and see whether traditional homes or "Green" diktats do a better job of reflecting and retaining the qualities of a "livable" community.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:21 | 3688270 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

As soon as I saw "global warming" I stopped reading.  Doesn't he know the cool kids call it climate change now since the warming aspect is no longer selling?  

It's cool and rainy in Northern California today.  Please tax me more and make it stop!  Fucking bizarro world....stop the ride I want to get off!

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 18:26 | 3688896 Treason Season
Treason Season's picture

"As soon as I saw..."  James Howard Kunstler..." I stopped reading."

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:45 | 3689521 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

But thank god you stuck around for the comments.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 19:34 | 3688969 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Quit making shit up:

Google Frank Luntz for how the term climate change came into vogue..

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 23:24 | 3689808 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

So it is your position that those who still advocate AGW allowed a fucking Republican to make them call their belief system Climate Change. I have spoken to adherents of AGW who refer to it as Climate Change and not Global Warming and they do this because of fucking Bush and his paid advisers?????

You sound like Obama== AGW is Bush's fault because we let him change  the name to Climate Change.

By the way Wiki never talks about many Democratic Senators are millionaires so I quess there are not any.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 23:59 | 3689872 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Anyone who is serious about the science refers to it as AGW, however, scientists when discussing the variations in pre- Anthropecene climate will use climate change....

BTW, as far as the public discourse goes, Climate Change won out, Luntz is a smart calculating puppy, what can I say....

Does that help you with your confusion?

Do you have anything of real content regarding the science or are you limited like the rest here to ideological claptrap and thoroughly debunked and discredited alternate explanations?

There are after all reasons why would deny AGW: either you are paid to or you lack the scientific education to understand what the data means. You have to throw away thermodynamics and the all our understanding of IR spectroscopy (which is sort of embarrasing since all our neat military tools based on that science do work) which in turns brings quantum mechanics into question in order to make AGW wrong...

So what is it? Are you a liar or a fool?

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 00:20 | 3689924 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

THe public is mostly stupid, as you have proven with your own commentary.


AGW is nothing more than a fucking religion to modern communists.


Half the science relies on people not understanding basic chemistry and physics.


My first degree is in physics and my minor was in chemistry.

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 00:45 | 3689985 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

So, what is it:

1) Hoax?  (Should be easily disproved with good data, if not why? Fuck the Kochs could fund modest AGW reserch lab for the money they spend)

2) The Science is wrong. (If so what exactly, and no crackpots please)

which leaves:

3) Conspiracy? (When did it start? 1896? 1930? the 50's?)

So which one is it? 

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:22 | 3688276 ATM
ATM's picture

You have to have real markets for them to be corrective. I think we've already realized that our "markets" are really not. They are theater.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:44 | 3688581 Lore
Lore's picture

Yes!  Exactly!  "There are no markets anymore, only interventions." - Chris Powell, GATA

Markets want to reassert.  We're witnessing the breakdown of extreme manipulation.  Instead of pissing schadenfreude, Kuntsler should educate his readership in the consequences of central planning and interference in markets. 

It would put him in better company.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:35 | 3688733 IdiocracyIsAlre...
IdiocracyIsAlreadyHere's picture

"Markets will decide, not him"  WTF?  What "markets"?  The whole surburban experiment exists mostly on cheap oil and...GOVERNMENT SPENDING POST WWII (FHA, VA, Interstate Highway System, GI bill, government contractors, eminent domain - you get the picture).  "Markets" factored very little into it.  And note the article clearly stated there was no future in "pack 'em and stack 'em" either.  Your comprehension is obviously quite limited.

Oh, and those "I hear 'global warming' and I immediately tune out" types - the earth has been warming over the last few decades whether you "believe" in or not.  It is even possible humans MIGHT have very little to do with causing that fact.  HOWEVER, humans WILL have to manage the consequences, like it or not.  Formerly fertile regions will turn into deserts and formerly hostile terrain may turn quite productive (see Russia's hope).  Whining about "Greens" or "enviromentalists" is a childish cop-out.  If you think they are wrong, how about offering up with some ideas of your own. 

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 19:00 | 3689002 Abi Normal
Abi Normal's picture

Take your junk science and stuff it Idiocracy...

the real science has shown there is actually cooling going on, but your too stupid or are a liberal talking head who touts the party line, go live with Al Bore!

over the history of the earth, there have been worse cooling and warming events, and yet there were no SSSS UUUUUU Vays....or smokestacks, etc.

CO2 is actually good for the earth, I think plant life likes it!

It is the SUN and volcanoes that really and truly affect our climate, not man, at least not to the exent you environmentalists think!

There are markets btw, but they are manipulated by the statists, or oligarchs...govt spending is a shill and produces nothing compared to a true free market, get an education, right after you get a life!

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 19:21 | 3689054 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Do you practice being a idiot or are you just a paid shill??

I take that back, no one in their right mind would pay you if they saw the shit you just wrote....

You should look up the term Fractally Wrong and see it is applicable to your beliefs...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 20:40 | 3689272 Lore
Lore's picture

@ Idiocracy: Climates change. Volcanoes erupt.  Solar flares happen.  It's okay.  REALLY!  IT'S OKAY.  The biosphere survived worse disasters and managed just fine before us, and it'll be here long after we're gone. But nature is the ultimate market, hence the bullshit attempt by the psychopaths to command it and commoditize it ("carbon taxes," etc.).  It's the nature of their sickness. They try to control everything.  The key message here is that normals do not need grassroots totalitarians hijacking local governments and telling us how to wash our laundry and recycle our kitchen scraps.  THE WORLD CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT BIG GOVERNMENT.  One of the great emancipations of the next century will be ordinary people telling all the different flavours of would-be technocrats to take all their Big Lies (like AGW) and GO FUCK THEMSELVES.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 20:50 | 3689341 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

How long have you been suffering from verbal diarrhea?

Could you remind us what the evolutionary status of H. Sapiens was the last time global C02 levels were at current levels? Or how about the range of global temperatures over the period of human cultural history? How about the current rate of change compared to earlier epochs?

Are you familiar with the concept of "wet bulb temperature" and what the lethal level is for H. Sapiens?  

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:05 | 3689374 Lore
Lore's picture


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:19 | 3689433 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Is that really the best you can come up with? Do you think I rely on the TV for anything?

Why don't you read this


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 22:15 | 3689625 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

Debt and/or War will kill you or your family long before Global Warming.  Al Gore has a much larger bunker than you for a reason.  Grow up and start to prioritize.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 23:31 | 3689764 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

With this kind of all but reptilian thinking I give our species 120 years more, tops....

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:03 | 3689369 Lore
Lore's picture

@ Idiocracy: Your comment about the highway system cannot be allowed to pass.  Those post-WW2 highways that you criticize were built in response to a NEED: the need to transport goods for trade and commerce. How many thousands of commercial rigs travel those highways every day?  Greenheads push to "Get you out of your car," never grasping the market decisions involved.  For free movement of people and goods, those highways were probably the smartest modern investment Americans ever made. 

The great flaw of most Agenda 21 propaganda is its disregard for free enterprise.  Always, the marketed solution is Bigger Green Brother. It's evil. 

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:21 | 3689441 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Yes, that explains it...

We have an Agenda 21 whackadoo on our hands...

Google Conspiracy Ideation and then look in the mirror...

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 01:08 | 3690044 Lore
Lore's picture

Nothing "ideational" about it.  I have a printed copy on my desk.  Order one yourself.  Denial is no excuse for ignorance.

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 09:18 | 3690710 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Is it next to your copy of "The Protocols of the Zionist Elders"? Afterall. their usefulnes and veracity are on par....

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 14:03 | 3691802 Lore
Lore's picture

That's an interesting and informative comparison. 

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 16:11 | 3692266 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

You do realize that I am refering to the POS that Beck wrote....

Wed, 06/26/2013 - 05:32 | 3693844 Lore
Lore's picture

Ah.  I was referring to the actual document.  I share your opinion about Beck's book.  At least we agree on something!

Rosa Koire wrote a decent pamphlet that's available on Amazon.  May your globe stay cool.  We don't need anything more to go wrong.


Tue, 06/25/2013 - 00:13 | 3689887 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

@ Lore: It appears your economic dogma doesn't allow history beyond "market forces" and "free movement"  to penetrate your thought processes and allow you to see further considerations that reside beyond the box you think in. Cheap and abundant oil made all of what you are talking about possible, regardless of all the other free market religious babble you mention. Couple that with a true conspiracy by wealthy and powerful people (Rockefeller, Robert Moses, etc...) to destroy all forms of public transit and you have influences well beyond that whole free market fallacy you keep spouting. Your need to hate "greenheads" blinds you.

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 01:36 | 3690036 Lore
Lore's picture

@ George:

Your attempt to insult me is ironic, because you essentially parrot what I already said.  Absolutely, the highways were put up cheaply. Thank goodness! There is no way in hell economic development would have been possible on the scale that we saw in the 20th century without the highway system.  20th century rail was just too slow and limited geographically.  Our forbears made the best economic decision using the information, technology and materials at hand.  If it wasn't Rockefellers, then it would have to be somebody else. Somebody had to make the capital investment!  It takes vision to spot opportunity.  No big deal, unless you mean to express some kind of strange sour grapes?

The trouble with public transit is that it is public.  Government decisionmaking is inherently backward, because it can't respond to market forces. Everything it does becomes a money pit.  For example, consider government-run bus and ferry systems: endless losers. Transportation, like most other matters of capital investment, should be a decision for real investors, not some socialist bureaucrat using other people's money.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 20:35 | 3689297 dtwn
dtwn's picture

"real science" showing cooling? Citation please.

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 04:51 | 3690269 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Since you seem to be a global cooling denier...Here's a link to a bunch of global cooling articles on huffpost.

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 09:19 | 3690675 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Did you actually read them and place them in within their proper context?

I don't think so, in fact, I know so given over half of them acknowledge AGW....

Too funny...

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 14:41 | 3691940 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

1/2 do but 1/2 don't acknowledge AGW.  It's huffpost.  You're right though, I didn't read them, I just felt like calling him a "global cooling denier" :)

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 18:13 | 3688856 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

""Tar sands, shale oil and shale gas...cost too much to get out of the ground." MARKETS WILL DECIDE, NOT HIM. "


You misunderstood.

The cost is in joules.  Markets have nothing to say about joules in vs joules out ratios.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 19:17 | 3689050 Five8Charlie
Five8Charlie's picture

I hear and understand your argument.

But I will pay a huge premium for the joules in my watch battery. I will pay nothing for the (many more) joules in the scrap wood by the side of the road.

The joules in oil may be worth recovering even if more joules of some other, less usable form are spent. Where are those joules in other, less usable forms?

That's the tough question.


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 20:14 | 3689227 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Valid point, but it's not happening that way.  Trucks bring the drill bits to the site.  Oil fuels the vehicles that bring the workers there.  The drill itself is gas powered -- as is the 40,000 horsepower marine engine on ocean deepwater rigs.

If there were big solar panels on the drill rigs powering the drills, your point weighs in.  There aren't.  There aren't going to be.  The ratio in vs out is in freefall, and so is civilization.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 20:39 | 3689307 Lore
Lore's picture

To your way of thinking, none of us should exist.  Yet here we are. 

Seriously, you do touch on an important point that deserves more attention: to the extent that they undermine our ability to measure the value of work, the fiat currency central bankers are the enemies of all civilization.  They need to be stopped while energy is still relatively cheap and before the dollar standard is abandoned.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:42 | 3689505 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Exactly.  That is the most insane part of all this, is that currency, free markets, capital allocation, is supposed to play a major role in finding the (multiple) solutions/workarounds to this (and other) problem(s).

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:02 | 3687565 XitSam
XitSam's picture

The ride ain't over yet.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:31 | 3687733 BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture


From a friend today:  

"They are also being told that the scenario will be late on a Friday afternoon the banking system will go down. The public will be told that hackers have broken into the entire banking system and that in a very few days it will all be back to normal. However, the plan is that the banks will not return to normal."

Sounds about right.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:38 | 3687764 CPL
CPL's picture

Yeah that one has been floating around lately.  Operation Blackjack as well.  Either way it's going to be a mess.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:45 | 3687815 BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

Agree... I think even people without 'Spidey Sense' are starting to feel the tingle...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:04 | 3687926 CPL
CPL's picture

Even the pinks see it now. 

Getting some oddly placed questions as well.  Bad dream threads that you would usually only find on LOP or GLP or /x/, they are in every forum now.  Weight lifters, divorce services, PERL, knitting...everywhere, usually it's pretty contained in the 'Loon-a-sphere', but it's out of the gate now.

Everyone from three year old kids to 90 year old grandmum's are sharing a common dream even though there is no connection to a single source other than the people dream a similar theme from different locations.  Fascinating stuff.  Collective unconcious?  Maybe.  Common thread is fire...lots and lots of fire if you are in a city or a suburb.  If you live in the country you hear about lots and lots of fire.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:23 | 3688030 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Hmm, my dreams are about water, lots and lots of water.  Usually with sharks and large rolling endless waves.  I think I need to stop eating spicy hot food with a gallon of water before going to bed.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:43 | 3688117 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

The future speaks to us as we get closer, and the suffering of our grand children finds its way home to the door of those who brought it.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:34 | 3688729 spekulatn
spekulatn's picture

Dr. Michael Burry has spiffed up his website after a 2 plus year hiatus.

He started his first fund after the tech crash in 2000. 


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:54 | 3687861 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

They can blame Anonymous for hacking the banks and destroying all the zero's and ones and then justifiy a new cyber crimes agency to join the NSA FBI CIA ETC ETC

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:24 | 3688036 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

They will blame Anon, BTC, Wikileaks, silver and gold.  That is what caused all the problems in the world.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:12 | 3688476 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

no wonder they want to take our guns.....Plan A


-take guns

-hack banks steal money

-blame anonymous

-expect no retaliation from citizenry


-try Plan B

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:35 | 3688554 giggler123
giggler123's picture

RIP James Gandolfini... and the world.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 18:18 | 3688871 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

It's called Quantum Dawn 2.


Do a GREP, I've mentioned it before.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:44 | 3689514 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Got to watch out for those exercises that go live!  God help us it thats the case on July 18.

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 00:47 | 3689968 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture



Come June 28th, Wall Street outfits including the likes of Citigroup and Bank of America will be under siege -- from fake hackers, that is. Representatives from a total of 40 companies along with the Federal Reserve, Securities and Exchange Commission, US departments of Treasury and Homeland Security will take part in Quantum Dawn 2: a simulated cyberattack on faux trading and information systems. Led by the Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association, the drill will test the ability of participants to cooperate via email and phone to suss out what's going on and hatch a plan. The exercise will momentarily pause so that those involved can decide on a course of action, and then it'll speed up and model the effects of the decision over a longer period of time. With the recent flurry of hacking incidents and international finger pointing, something tells us this won't be the last we hear of drills like Quantum Dawn.[source]

Organized by the trade group SIFMA, Quantum Dawn 2  will take place on June 28 – a summer Friday that, with any luck, will be a relatively quiet day in the real markets.The drill involves not just big Wall Street firms like Citigroup and Bank of America, but the Department of Homeland Security, the Treasury Department, the Federal Reserve, the Securities and Exchange Commission, according to SIFMA officials.[Reuters]

I can post these links all day, and still pull up the archives for your changes to the website. Sneaky little bunnies; they changed it after I posted it here as well, I do double-check my work.


Unless, of course, that was mere coincidence, and they delayed because they know something else will make their test assaults redundant or dangerous?

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 01:43 | 3690099 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Holy Jesus Monkeyballs. Can't believe the name is actually what it is. What the fuck, man.

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 02:02 | 3690122 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

"grep" is a noun, in fact a proper noun. Do they not teach English syntax and grammar at l33t Internet superhero school? Do they run Windows?

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 08:09 | 3690431 Aurora Ex Machina
Aurora Ex Machina's picture

Remember: No soup for you!


p.s. If you're bothering to stalk me to attempt to score points, in a game I'm not playing, please make them count, otherwise you just look pathetic. And I mean this nicely, there is no us. Whatever sad little fantasy you have about how you're outwitting me, or threatening my ego, you're playing with yourself in the wrong paddling pool.

You will note, I do hope, that apart from replying to your rude, crude jabs, I simply don't read what you post. Here's your soup, darling:


In December 2003, the Oxford English Dictionary Online added draft entries for "grep" as both a noun and a verb.

A common verb usage is the phrase "You can't grep dead trees"—meaning one can more easily search through digital media, using tools such as grep, than one could with a hard copy (i.e., one made from dead trees, paper).[9] Compare with google. [wiki]

Unix / Linux forum on the matter if you don't trust Wiki, and yes, I'm using it correctly to mean "search through my comments for instances of Word X".


Better make the next attempt really count, you're 3-0 so far, it's not looking good. Or, you could give up with a crushed ego. QQ.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 12:44 | 3687461 game theory
game theory's picture

metals are in for a world of hurt...blame china and the fed.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:16 | 3687637 Charles Nelson ...
Charles Nelson Reilly's picture

ehhh?  The fucking chinese are the only ones with an ounce of sense these days.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:48 | 3688593 game theory
game theory's picture

I don't know about "sense". But the Fed took them to the woodshed starting in 2008. They didn't do even half of what they should have in those 6 years.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 19:11 | 3689033 slyhill
slyhill's picture

The woodshed you speak of was pretty full in 2008 as I remember.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:43 | 3687769 Alexandre Stavisky
Alexandre Stavisky's picture

Watch demand and pricing action.  If demand is up while supply is constrained.  RED LETTER ERROR MESSAGE.

If selling pressure is obviously not to carefully dispose of sell orders in order to maximize profit, then RED LETTER ERROR MESSAGE.

In this Central Bank world, one must vigorously swim against consensus.  Bonds, stocks, gov't debt all impaired.

Gold outside the system is difficult to dilute, bail-in, or otherwise dissipate in banking policy outside the reach of individual oversight.  Tyranny is the deployment without your consent of your past captured industry made storable by money tokens.  Fiat means your labour is put to use by plutocrats who earn any gains thereby, stick you and your currency with any losses, and eternally debase the tokens.

Take all opposite trades when OZ wields a heavy wack-a-mole hammer attempting to force you into disastrous trades against better judgement. 

Be right, sleep tight.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:44 | 3687777 Alexandre Stavisky
Alexandre Stavisky's picture


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 12:47 | 3687471 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

If the world financial system is in the throes of a massive deflation, why would gold be any different? And when that "called for day of joy" arrives, i.e. the demise of the hated FR dollar, why would the real buying power of Au increase relative to a persons real needs? Sure it is worth something, but that something is less when measured against real things you need...

The above is emerging as the only possible solution to the conundrum of price action of gold over the past 20 months or so....There is no physical shortage that can be reliably identified, new demand is being satisfied out of existing stocks...

Yes, I am very concerned that this is the case because it means there is nowhere to hide that does not require actively anticipating the next asset class to collapse...

And when RP says gold is going to infinity, it sure the fuck isn't in terms of grain, oil etc....

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:14 | 3687620 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Yeah ~ Granny's gonna get rich cornering the market in catfood with her social security pension now that we're in the throes of massive deflation...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:16 | 3687629 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Is your reading comprehension really that bad?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:20 | 3687653 Hippocratic Oaf
Hippocratic Oaf's picture

Flak, really.

Do you always have to be a douche nozzle?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:28 | 3687699 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Would you prefer boards with simple mindless content free pap of the type that Francis provided? I mean, it isn't even funny or witty, or even relevant to my comment if he had read and understood it.

Or would you prefer reading  an articulated idea that is not group think or will liley not resonate in the echo-chamber?

Since you are a self-proclaimed oaf, we probably know the answer....

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:37 | 3687756 RSloane
RSloane's picture

Really? Articulated ideas? Non echo chamber statements? We all remember how far you were in the tank for Obama during the last presidential election. Its good to know that you were not mindlessly spewing out that garbage as you tried to turn ZH into Huffington Post, but actually believed the kind of crap you were offering up for comment. I misjudged you, and I apologize.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:46 | 3687817 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Some people simply can't wait for the floral aroma bouquet of their farts to tickle their nostrils...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:49 | 3687840 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

In the tank for Obama? Fuck, now that is funny...

So, if I point out that  Repubs presented quite possibly the worst ever slate of candidates (Cain? Perry? Bachman, etc... All people that "led" the race at some point) ever fielded for a presidential  election that makes me an Obama toadie?  

And yeah, I think RP had a few good ideas, but his intellectual bankruptcy when it came to the issue of balancing personal vs. corporate freedom was too much to stomach. Given as I see this as the real issue confronting our society....

Fuck, Obama almost makes me wish Nixon was still running the show....

Show one fucking post where I tried to make ZH in to HuffPo vis a vis Obama and the election...

Sorry, that dog don't hunt anymore....

PS For the record, I did not vote for BHO...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:29 | 3688056 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

And you don't believe in gold manipulation?


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:32 | 3688062 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

I believe that a market can only be manipulated for a short time if it is at odds with the fundamental underlying trend...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:47 | 3688375 artless
artless's picture

RP? Intellectual bankruptcy?

Might want to go re-read the good doctor's words. I don't think you get libertarianism (well Ron's a bit more of an anarchist0 nor do you understand Austrian Economics.


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:52 | 3688403 Panafrican Funk...
Panafrican Funktron Robot's picture

Hi Flak, I like that you are here, a reasoned response to your comments on gold:

1.  In the event the FRN goes the way of the dinosaur, I agree that gold, in the absence of other "survival collateral" such as food, water, medicine, liquor, etc., is not a "be all/end all strategy".  I think it is merely a good store of excess wealth from productive labor, because it seems to have survived a lot of currency deaths.  For those of us who take the long view (generationally wealthy families, or those aspiring to be), it's worth noting that "landed gentry" also tend to rent farmland (and have good knowledge of farming), shoot guns well/hunt, and hold a good chunk of their wealth in tangible assets (again, real estate, art/antiques, precious metals, etc.).  

2.  100%+ allocation in gold as a store of wealth isn't necessarily a good idea (there are several potential future scenarios at play), but less than 25% allocation is also not a good idea (one of the scenarios is the end of the USD as a reserve currency, and I happen to think it's increasingly likely on a less than 5 year timeframe).

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:57 | 3688420 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Thank you for the measured and civil reply....

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 21:45 | 3689522 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

And a minute ago you were complaining that you never get any love.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 23:58 | 3689873 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

By past measures, today has been a veritable love fest....

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:31 | 3687731 RSloane
RSloane's picture

Hello Francis. Up arrowing you because I can and for freedom-lovin grannies everywhere. Some political syncophants will down arrow you. Next time, bring your rah-rah game.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:51 | 3687848 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

What cracks me up is this is all mental masturbation...


Kunstler, Krugman, whoever... all pontificating about 'prices' of things in this scenario or that scenario... It's all horseshit... The price will be what it will be when the scenario arrives... Until then ~ do your best to have handy what you think you might need for awhile...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:05 | 3688199 Creepy Lurker
Creepy Lurker's picture

At least it looks like Kunstler has laid off that "walkable cities" BS he was constantly spewing and finally acknowledeged that the cities are unlivable cesspools.

Tue, 06/25/2013 - 02:05 | 3690129 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Unlivable? Not if you're a plague pathogen...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:48 | 3688383 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

I like the ones that do it because, "they can."     salute !

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:17 | 3687633 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

Problem with your delfation thesis is the prices of foodstuffs, and oil..... or shall we say hard commodities....  Oil should be mid 80's at best right now..... why not?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 18:18 | 3688870 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Because sellers want $95 and buyers are willing to pay it.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:17 | 3687638 maskone909
maskone909's picture

you dont get it.  seen the 10y yield lately?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:21 | 3687658 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

There is a dash for cash right now with the liquidity crisis, so everything is being sold, even gold.  Chris Martenson was talking about it last week on RT.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:55 | 3688170 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture


please put gold in quotes...."gold" like that.....Physical is being hoarded by the rich who know why they own it (to carry them over into a new monetary system). Paper is sold by those who were using it to get more dollars....see the difference?

"Gold" will continue to fail even as real physical gold becomes impossible to backwardation....dollar failure....time for some big changes, including a new price for physical gold (the most attractive wealth asset even known).

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:24 | 3687673 CPL
CPL's picture

Deflation and inflation all require something of substance and value to be offered.  Right now fiat stands at 0 as a value, unless counting unicorn ranches. 

Can't increase or decrease a value on something that is unsubstantive.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:44 | 3688369 malek
malek's picture

I'm totally fine if gold stays even in terms of grain, oil etc.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:12 | 3688669 orez65
orez65's picture

Gold is indeed predicting deflation.

But that's not the point.

It's what central banks will do that will make gold go exponentially up.

When the bond selling panic begins, in earnest, Ben will step in and buy all bond sellers.

When the market realizes that there is a sucker buying any and all bonds they will dump them all.

Then what do you do with all the cash?

It will go into hard assets, voila hyperinflation.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 22:28 | 3689666 KickIce
KickIce's picture

The money printing has been epic and the competition for anything real will be as well.

Sociopath vs sociopath.


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:08 | 3687590 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:23 | 3687671 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

They are taking it down. Buying the fuck out of it(phyz) and then the ramp. PMs usually front run then explode up. Sell, PLEASE. I have an idea that there will be MANY buyers. Who cares about fuckass paper. I wanna hold it. I imagine people in China would like to hold stuff, but alas, they cannot get into the PBOC. 

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:29 | 3688449 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

I get so tired of people talking about the price of gold.  What we're really talking about is the price of the USD in we're not goldbugs, we're just looking at the history of fiat and realizing that it will take less and less gold to get more and more fiat, but that fiat will buy you less and less food, water, grain, etc.  I don't think anyone here thinks they will get rich holding phyzz.  Even the wealthy are just protecting their wealth with it. 

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:15 | 3688679 orez65
orez65's picture

"I don't think anyone here thinks they will get rich holding phyzz."

I just want to pay off all of my debt with a few gold coins.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:38 | 3687762 kito
kito's picture

thats because gold has lots and lots of digital bennybucks every other asset on the planet.....the only thing safe are the physical bennybucks......

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 13:57 | 3687884 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

"the only thing safe are the physical bennybucks"


The first time I went down to Brazil was in 1987... When I left, I'd already been booked to return about 6 months later... I had about $40 worth of 'Cruzados', so I didn't bother changing them at the airport because I figured I could use them when I got back... [that was August]

I get back [March, the next year], and the Cruzado had been changed to the 'Cruzerio' [if I remember correctly]... My cruzados were worth about a nickle... Since then, I think they've been through the Cruzado, the Cruzerio, the 'New Cruzerio', the Real... Maybe they're on the 'New Real' now [I haven't kept track]...

But I'm SURE it'll never happen with your 'bennybucks'... You know ~ because you say so & all, &, well, this time it's DIFFERENT & all...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:33 | 3688068 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Why won't deflation happen?  Because of counterfeiting.  If USD become really valuable, and people who held physical cash did best, then demand for cash (never mind the bank runs) would mean there is a sizable market for counterfeiters.  (BTW, the Fed are legal counterfeiters, you decide if that makes a difference)

There.  Spelled it out for everyone.  That still doesn't mean the price of everything always goes up.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:21 | 3688257 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

No worries FS, they'll still be called dollars.  But the old ones will be called Judenfetzen, or something that rhymes.

It's the same old game throughout history for those who are able to collect usury on "money".

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:21 | 3688693 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Who doesn't like confetti?

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:30 | 3688718 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

When one goes to pay for something with it.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 14:23 | 3688033 e-recep
e-recep's picture

Marc Faber, June 24. 2013 : “Maybe gold is signaling a deflationary collapse of all asset prices. If this were indeed the case I suppose I would rather own gold than government bonds, high yield bonds and equities. If this scenario were to pass it would lead to even more money printing around the world,”


Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:17 | 3688247 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

So let me get this straight...

I get junked for basically saying the exact same thing (well before Faber did)

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:44 | 3688364 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

ahhh, Flak, you've been here long enough to know there are a more than a few folks who admittedly don't read the articles, & head directly for the comments, greening their faves & "junking" their pet peeves.

and I've been here long enough to know you probably don't really care. . .   *grins*

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 15:59 | 3688428 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Yeah, but it is nice to feel a little love every now and then. It is, after all, only human...

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 17:44 | 3688768 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Ah, Flakmeister, I send a greenie your way !!!

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 22:41 | 3689696 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Love ya, man.

Mon, 06/24/2013 - 16:01 | 3688431 malek
malek's picture

Might it be because you said "If the world financial system is in the throes of a massive deflation" and then rather nebulously talk about "the demise of the hated FR dollar" [how can it demise it there's deflation? Well I do understand between the lines you are also assuming CBs reacting with massive money printing, but you don't spell it out] and then out of nowhere and logically derived by exactly nothing you postulate "that something [Au worth] is less when measured against real things you need..."

Yeah, 50% chance you're right. But handing that over like a big piece of wisdom is hilarious.

In contrast Marc Faber does state in detail the progression "deflation --> more money printing" and also says "I suppose I would rather own gold than government bonds, high yield bonds and equities."

So Flak, in the unlikely chance you want to post something constructive we're still waiting for a clear explanation what you would rather own instead of gold, government bonds, high yield bonds and equities and make it an answer that also works if you have lets say $100,000+ to put in a safe place (as guns, ammo, long storage food etc. are long covered before you have used up the $100k) and you're no farming expert.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!