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The Next American Revolution

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Charles Hugh-Smith of OfTwoMinds blog,

Some July 4th thoughts on revolution as a process rather than an event.

The next American Revolution will not be an event, it will be a process. We naturally turn to the past for templates of the future, but history has a way of remaining remarkably unpredictable. Indeed, all the conventional long-range forecasts made in 1900, 1928, 1958, 1988 and 2000 missed virtually every key development--not just in the distant future, but just a few years out.

The point is that extrapolating the present into the future fails to capture sea changes and developments that completely disrupt the supposedly unchanging, permanent Status Quo. The idea that the next revolution will take a new form does not occur to conventional forecasters, who readily assume the next transition will follow past critical junctures: armed insurrection against the central authority (The first American Revolution, 1781), civil war (1861) or global war (1941).

I submit that the next American Revolution circa 2021-23 will not repeat or even echo these past transitions. What seems likely to me is the entire project of centralization that characterized the era 1941-2013 will slip into irrelevance as centralization increasingly yields diminishing returns.

Everything centralized, from the Federal Reserve to the Too Big To Fail Banks to Medicare to the National Security State depends on the Federal government being a Savior State that must ceaselessly expand its share of the national income and its raw power lest it implode. All Savior States have one, and only one trajectory-- they must ceaselessly expand and concentrate wealth and power or they will fail.

They are like the shark, which dies once it stops moving forward: the Savior State must push forward on its trajectory of expansion or it expires.

Stasis is not possible, nor is contraction; the promises made to the citizenry cannot be withdrawn without political instability, but the promises cannot be kept without fatally disrupting the neofeudal financialized debtocracy.

You see the dilemma: The Savior State cannot stop expanding, but the financial system that generates its revenues can no longer support its vast machinery of debt and phantom collateral. This is why I suggest all the centralized concentrations of wealth and power will either implode or fade into irrelevance.

If all the phantom wealth and collateral vanishes in a market clearing event, the Federal Reserve will simply become irrelevant to the vast majority of people. A handful of nimble speculators may well benefit by picking over the carcass of financialization and centralized omnipotence (i.e. central banking), and perhaps the 1/10th of 1% will still have enough assets influenced by the Fed to care, but the forces of disruption will replace centralization with decentralization.

Here is another example: Medicare may not cease to exist, but it will become increasingly irrelevant to most people because it will not longer function. The remaining doctors willing to treat Medicare patients will be working 13-hour days for sketchy pay, and as each one burns out and leaves the system, the system contracts. Eventually it contracts to the point of irrelevance.

The revolution will be in work and social innovations enabled by technology. The conventional view is that technology will magically enable the permanence of the present; this will be proven incorrect, as what technology enables is not the waste, entitlement and centralization that characterize the present but social innovations, some of which are already visible.

If we sought to summarize the profound transformation ahead in one sentence, it would be this: wages are no longer an adequate model for distributing the surplus generated by the economy.

The current Savior State model responds to this by increasing taxes on the dwindling minority with fulltime jobs and increasing entitlement payments to all those without government or private-sector jobs. This model will collapse, politically, socially and economically, as no society or economy can squander half or more of its productive labor force while increasing the burden on the dwindling cohort of productively employed. The inevitable result of this dynamic is a destabilizing Tyranny of the Majority. Tyranny of the Majority, Corporate Welfare and Complicity (April 9, 2010)

Technology is not just disrupting old industries and companies, it is disrupting the entire Savior State/cartel-capitalism model. The disruption has barely begun, but it will pick up speed over the next decade.

I suspect the next American Revolution will begin in the 2015-16 timeframe. A series of interlocking crises will lead to reforms that preserve the Savior State/ cartel-capitalism for another few years, at a lower level of consumption, i.e. burn rate.

But the process of revolution will be far from complete; this initial response of the centralized neofeudal debtocracy will buy time for the Status Quo, and every conventional onlooker will be infused with optimism and hope that the system established in the Great Depression, World War II and its Cold War aftermath--the secular religion of consumerism (i.e. aggregate demand), permanent war footing and the National Security State, and universal dependence on the Savior State and its ceaseless expansion of concentrated wealth and power--will continue.

But this Springtime for the Savior State/cartel-capitalism partnership will be brief, and by 2018-19 all the systemic flaws and disruptive trends will reassert themselves with renewed vigor.

The entire current model of governance, social order and the economy will be revolutionized not by overthrow but by the process of irrelevance. What will become relevant will no longer be in the control of the Savior State or its partner, financialized cartel capitalism.

Those currently holding all the concentrated power and wealth cannot believe they will become irrelevant, but that's the result of projecting the present as if it is permanent and immutable.

The new system will be better, more humane, more flexible, more transparent, with more opportunity, for it will be everything the current corrupt, sclerotic, parasitic and exploitive system is not.

Three video programs for your viewing pleasure:


Gordon Long and I discuss Window of Opportunity: Blown!

Longtime contributor and fellow writer Zeus Yiamouyiannis discusses his new book Transforming Economy: From Corrupted Capitalism to Connected Communities with Max Keiser

Kerry Lutz of Financial Survival Network and I discuss the future of work and education--though Kerry titled the show more provocatively....


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Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:32 | 3722168 TeamDepends
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The next American Revolution may not be an event, but it will be sparked by an event.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:44 | 3722191 iDealMeat
iDealMeat's picture

If everyone globally simply cut their consumption in everything by 40% it would bring down the FED, Primary Dealers, and Fortune 1000. They only exist because of the debt based system and its derivatives.


STOP YOUR PERSONAL SPENDING!!...   Be a part of the Revolution and cause a total reset.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:49 | 3722198 F. Bastiat
F. Bastiat's picture

Ditched my cable TV service in 2005; one of the best decisions I've made.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:51 | 3722207 francis_sawyer
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"but history has a way of remaining remarkably unpredictable."


Who is this guy?... Yogi Berra?

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:03 | 3722232 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

"but history has a way of remaining remarkably unpredictable."




there is nothing really new if you go back far enough in history.


1) you are born

2) you learn primitive skills

3) go to school

4) go to work

5) get married

6) have children

7) buy stuff (house, car, computer, toys)

8) have grandchildren

9) get sick

10) die

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:13 | 3722261 samcontrol
samcontrol's picture

1) they used forceps when i was born, crushing my skull
2) i learned how to get hit and hit .
3) used number two in school.
4) tried working, no point if you have money.
5) i am 45 soon to be married to my 27 year old girlfriend.
6) i hope my kids don,t turn out like me.
7) buy more stuff , instead of dad.
8) won,t reach grandchildrem, i would be really surprised.
9) get sicker.
10 ) die

11) resurect and read zh.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:42 | 3722746 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

Good luck to you. I met my wife when I was 46 and she was 28.  Stay in shape, cradle robber.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:28 | 3722629 Poor Grogman
Poor Grogman's picture

Where does the invention of Differential Calculus fit into this neat plan of yours?

Or is this just your own personal experience?

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:36 | 3722731 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

The next American Revolution will be video taped and posted on fb and utube...


Zombies (narcissistic, unmoral, self gratifying spiritless gadget obsessive consumers) vs the few...

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:05 | 3722236 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

You can see a lot by just looking.

                      Yogi Berra

He's got his whole future ahead of him.

                  also Yogi ( for the benefit of the youngins )

                  One of the great all time hitters, before becoming a legendary strategist and coach.


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:51 | 3722579 mofreedom
mofreedom's picture

see the

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:44 | 3722751 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

Q.  Hey, Yogi, what time is it?


A.  You mean right now?

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 07:23 | 3722962 CH1
CH1's picture

Yogi: The future ain't what it used to be.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:05 | 3722237 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

The author makes a valid point that the centralization portends the ever increasing debt.

This is the Achilles heel of the CBs and is the answer to why deflationary episodes are defended so vigorously by the FED.

Bernanke's main mission is to inflate, inflate and then inflate some more.

Pretty soon you run out of breath or the ballon won't hold air any longer...


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:04 | 3722518 knukles
knukles's picture

Or your liver fails



and Steve Jobs gets the one you'd waited for.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 09:18 | 3723273 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Too much GMO popcorn will do that.

ie, moderate your ZH reading time. Or buy Organic.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:07 | 3722241 kito
kito's picture

Lol. +1

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:30 | 3722295 Smegley Wanxalot
Smegley Wanxalot's picture

History is actually perfectly predictable.

It's the future that is "remarkably unpredictable."

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 04:10 | 3722900 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Predictable in the sense that the oligarchs conceal the good stuff from the masses, maybe.

The stuff they teach in "history class" is mostly distraction.

They leave out the good stuff that paints the crosshairs on the private interests that fought, tooth and nail, to control the money of the varioud nations.

The Secret of Oz

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 09:24 | 3723297 marathonman
marathonman's picture

History is constantly changing.  What was learned a generation ago, is unlearned in the new generation who had no idea and were guided around the truth.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:31 | 3722296 Unknown Poster
Unknown Poster's picture

Churchill took a swipe at the Soviets by saying that their history was unpredictable.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 04:07 | 3722897 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Tight prarphrase:

There was a Second American Revolutiion in the late 1800s.  It was not won through force of arms, but through force of insight into creating public opinion.
~John Taylor Gatto

The Ultimate History Lesson

The Underground History of American Education
An Intimate Investigation into the Prison of Modern Schooling
, by John Taylor Gatto (2001)

Audio Book Format

"You either learn your way to writing your own script in life, or you unwittingly become an actor in someone else's script."
~John Taylor Gatto

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:53 | 3722209 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I grew up in a house without one, so I never bought one. We were "computer people".

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 04:58 | 3722824 August
August's picture

Ditched my cable TV service during Reagan's second term.  Have I missed anything?

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 07:24 | 3722963 CH1
CH1's picture

Not much, August, not much.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:51 | 3722204 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

Sooner rather than later world will apart its ways away from USSA and this country will be left alone to rot, if you allow me to say so.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:20 | 3722443 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Bring your guns and a handful of silver:

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:57 | 3722220 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Sure, we all must vote with our dollars.  And if you think we can get through this without getting our hands dirty and/or bloody well, um, we hope you are right.  But 2 billion hollow-point bullets don't lie. 

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:09 | 3722246 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Those bullets are for National Security™. They're for The Terrrrrrrists™.

No need to worry about them unless you're a Terrrrrrrist™.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:07 | 3722406 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

A potentially even bigger impact than opting out, is to STOP ENLISTING in the LEAs and Military.

Force them to conscript, if they want to, but now it opens up a whole can of worms, if the middle class or upper crust have to bleed and die for Wall St.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:07 | 3722523 knukles
knukles's picture

The upper crust and middle class have never bled for Wall Street.  It was the black children of GM assembly line workers from Pontiac or inner city youth went off to Nam.
In spite of the "lottery" system, which was eminently game-able.


Which Jimmy Carter resurrected to scare the Ruskies into submission.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 04:49 | 3722905 TheObsoleteMan
TheObsoleteMan's picture

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. First of all, if your folks worked for GM back in the 1960s, YOU WERE MIDDLE CLASS. Ask me how I know dumb phuk. Was the draft lottery "gameable"? Of course it was. But anybody could do it, race didn't figure into the equation. All you had to do was join the National Guard, go to college, become a minister like Big Al and Jesse did or like Arlo said in his song; tell them: "I want to kill. I want to kill,,,,,I want to kill, kill, kill, kill!!" I heard it said once by a Vietnam vet:"The only guys that went to Vietnam, were the guys that either wanted to, or were court ordered."

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 00:54 | 3722817 DrData02
DrData02's picture

This, indeed, is the key.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:46 | 3722194 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Looks like things may be getting a little traction...

I haven't heard of this event or I would have been there.


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:47 | 3722197 spine001
spine001's picture

I respectfully disagree with you Tyler. A process entails order, and the evokution of the system we are inmersed is ruled by chaos theory, as any respected physicist can explain to you, therefore the transition from one stable attractor to the new one will be disorderly, no choice around that. Its out of human control at this point, it's just boring math. Where younare correct is in that we can't predict the path it will take, nor what attractor it will lead us to. What youdescribe is just one of many possible attractors or system stability points in the future. Again both the path and the end point infinitely depend on the initial conditions.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:09 | 3722249 kito
kito's picture

It's Charles not Tyler.....

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:12 | 3722256 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Reading is fundamental.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:49 | 3722495 Hulk
Hulk's picture

I approve this message !!!

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:09 | 3722524 knukles
knukles's picture

The "Laws" of Physics" may not apply as equally well to the state of the Human Condition.
Just sayin'

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:29 | 3722291 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

We thought he was talking to us!

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:24 | 3722277 123dobryden
123dobryden's picture

there was a famous quote in old czechoslovak movie that took place few years after WWII 'I am giving bolshewik 2-3 years maximum'....well, we got 40 more years, so much for the timing of revolutions


yet, even when the change came, it was very same people from comunist elites who took economic power as they were the ones connected, they took over national assets in fire-sale, so called privatization in other words robbery.


untill its not revolution in french/gilottine or russian/gulag way, where majority of elite class was executed and masacred, the real power will not change hands, just look at the poor Hitler, who never really thought this thing through

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:03 | 3722597 mofreedom
mofreedom's picture

that's cause they thought the US was comming to rescue them...didn't realize they wanted them enslaved a titch longer.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:50 | 3722199 max2205
max2205's picture

...and it will suck big time

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 01:13 | 3722828 BeaverFever
BeaverFever's picture

My wife sucks on her Cheetos and lets them dissolve in her mouth before she swallows them. I buy her large bags of them. I call it our quiet time. When the revolution begins I'm going to get cable, sit back and buy some popcorn. You know, the stuff in the black bag coated with white cheese...

"After all we're just another brick in the wall"

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 02:05 | 3722852 HermesHiccups
HermesHiccups's picture

oh to be young and innocent!

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:03 | 3722395 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

Now that Egyptians are done rioting, perhaps they could lend us their signs and posters. We promise to return them in time for their next revolution.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:59 | 3722476 sgorem
sgorem's picture

"They are like the shark, which dies once it stops moving forward." FALSE. I like CHS, but I've gotta get the grill goin for the Cat Food Burgers, so WE ALL can celebrate another day surviving Wall Street, the NSA, ObummerCare, $100+oil, Fucking spineless, traitorous politicians, a couple trillion government beauracrats getting fatter doing nothing, Bleeding Heart Liberals trying their damnest to give every fucking one in the world a free ride off the US Taxpayers back, a Moron president and his racist wife (or is it the other way around?), Gay this & Gay that, the trampling of the Constitution, Wars, and Moar Wars, inflation, manipulated markets, an unfair tax system, poor healthcare, illegal immigrants, currency wars, fake fiat, the coming stock market collapse, smashed PMs, drones, wiretaps, terrorists, lies, fraud, graft, bullshit, and last, but not least, douchebag trollers on ZH. Have a great DEPENDENCE DAY, you've earned it. 

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 09:29 | 3723320 marathonman
marathonman's picture

Well played gorem.  Well played.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:48 | 3722759 Dealyer Turdin
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Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:33 | 3722170 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I hope it involves some Heavy Metal, half nude bitches some wearing leather bikini's and a place called Thunderdome.



Not really, but the idea has it's merits, you know leather bikini's and half nude womenz.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:54 | 3722214 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You and I sir, are on the same wave length..

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:24 | 3722276 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

"I see you are enticed by my daughter's awesome rocking tits."

If Matt and Trey were joint presidents of the world, all policy would make sense. Hell, we would even trade hot wheels as currency.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:36 | 3722174 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

The one big problem with this thesis is that the nice folks who brought us centralization and globalization have all the high tech military stuff.   If/when things really start to fall apart, they will not cede power and no one is going to take it from them.  I think the future looks a lot like China.  A few people with most of the stuff, a small number of people who resemble middle class, and everyone else.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:43 | 3722188 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

As a former high-speed run and gunning Infantryman. That tech doesn't mean shit without a crap load of support and the people on the ground to support it or to hold the front lines.


Those drones will only make it obvious that they can not hold the territory, only harass the plebes they presume to lord over.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:50 | 3722196 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

You are assuming (incorrectly I believe) that most of the boots on the ground will turn against them.  I don't think so.  Cops have been militarized and most look at the average guy as a criminal waiting to be caught.  A large percentage of the military will happily hold on to cush jobs (what they will be versus being one of the masses) and defend against the hippie/lazy etc mobs.  How did Occupy Wall Street work out?  Bunch of hippies, right?  See any police or military object to rounding them up?   These same guys are also willing and able to kill women and children all over the world after their cultures have been properly demonized.  It's not going to happen overnight.  Militaries all over the world operate by giving special power and privilege to those in uniform, and most of those guys are willing to turn against their own people when push comes to shove.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:59 | 3722222 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

Enlisted grunts are treated like shit. Most folks (no matter how much brainwashing they throw at you) still believe in the Constitution and what it stands for. It would be simple enough to place a small piece of lead in an officer that just instructed (ordered) you to place one in your fellow citizen.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:31 | 3722275 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Those same guys don't believe in killing children either until they are sufficiently propagandized and the "enemy" (whoever that may be) is sufficiently demonized.  The guys who have strong moral feelings against it by and large don't stop it and they don't tattle on their fellow soldiers for reasons that are obvious to anyone who knows how human being works.  TPTB know how to manipulate the military and the police.  It is also not a coincidence that a huge number of former soldiers are now paid "contractors."  The ones who follow orders get good paying jobs and they get to kick heads which many of those sort enjoy.  

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:34 | 3722306 20834A
20834A's picture

If the chaos is severe enough, and their own families are at risk, many will desert with their weapons and go home to protect their loved  ones. Unless the gov't provides a safehaven for more than the leader's families, the grunts will go awol.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:38 | 3722320 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

TPTB are smart.  They will house the families and continue to provide financial support to the police/military.  The people at risk will be "the others."

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:01 | 3722386 20834A
20834A's picture

Yes LTER, quite possible. However, that then concentrates the targets. A smart guerilla leader would only have to wipe out one encampment to change the game. Cold, but true.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:08 | 3722409 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

And said guerilla leader would inflame the survivors against the terrorist resistance even if he got past the air force protected perimeter.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:46 | 3722667 Poor Grogman
Poor Grogman's picture

History is littered with the decaying body parts of supreme leaders.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:27 | 3722725 20834A
20834A's picture

At first, yes. But the nature of a guerilla war is to grind down resources, personnel and, most of all- hope. The hope that you and your family will live through it, that it will lead to your desired outcome. When a force starts to lose this hope, they fade. But 'inflamed survivors' haven't had all that much success hitting back at an elusive enemy- even Isreal, with it's excellent Mossad and high tech toys of war.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 01:15 | 3722830 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"They"  have resources no tyrannical government before them has had.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:26 | 3722722 XitSam
XitSam's picture

IMHO, there could be protected areas, maybe walled areas, green zones or whole cities that protect the pro-government families. I have seen no evidence that either the police (the Boston search, shoot anyone even if Dorner not sighted, daily police reports, militarization up to armored cars and 50 cal machine guns), FLEAs (Tsarnev unarmed boat shooting, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Elian Gonzalez), or military (personal experience, National Guard training for 'civil unrest', combined arms training in multiple US cities) will object to the orders they are given and which they will obey.  Remember, the guerrilla fighters will be demonized as terrorists, anti-freedom, etc. It won't be hard to keep the troops in line.

One other thing this thread has forgotten is the possibility of foreign 'peace keepers' on US soil while US forces fight overseas in another 'intervention'.

The guerrilla wants and needs the populace on his side, this means never harming families or other civilians in a green zone. A raid to free civilians from unjust detention would be good. Wiping out an encampment that contains any non-combatants would be bad and a propaganda coup for pro-government forces.

Pro-government forces will use conventional as well as unconventional tactics. Cutting off electricity, gasoline, diesel, natual gas and/or food to a 'rebellious town' for guerrilla activity would be easy. False flag stuff: blame the guerrillas for downing power lines. It would be played as a safety issue for the truck drivers and other workers restoring services. Watch how fast cold, hungry Americans turn in their neighbors, guerrilla or not.

I think I can find references for any point made. Things could change based on unknown factors, example: Snowden. 


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:45 | 3722648 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

I think they will try some of these strategies for the crackdown: 

Use ruthless Russian mercenaries under the command of a UN "peacekeeping" operation.

Use drones controlled by Pakistanis who lost family to NWO drone strikes.  It's the sort of puppeteering-by-trauma that appeals to the puppetmasters.  There will be plenty of people who won't realize the ironic ways in which they have been played.

Use cops and soldiers who they have already flagged as particularly gullible and/or sociopathic, and give them beats in a very different corner of America than where they grew up or where their family lives.  These enforcers would include the highly paid contractors you mentioned.  The ticket to their new careers was showing that they could kill like terminators.  Vets who develop any psychological issues are kicked to the curb due to the risk that they might still have a soul.

Soldiers and vets flagged as being too honorable can be deployed to the middle the Sahara and then have their supplies cut off due to "financial difficulties" (i.e.  the puppetmasters need another bailout).

Start a race war.  Shifts blame, sheeple beg for order, preppers have to watch their back while the real crimminals escape, culls the herd, more hate and trauma to feed the Beast.

Seal off the cities and offer FEMA-brand soylent green in exchange for guns and gold.  Once the supply dries up, stormtroopers swarm in, cattle cars roll out, rinse, wash, repeat.

The elite could generously offer sanctuary in their luxurious underground cities.  Complete with sex slaves appealing to every conceivable fetish.  Congress and state officials would be the first people approached with this deal.  If they are lucky, the propaganda feeds will keep working and our so-called leaders will live out the rest of their lives in clapping galleries overseen by killer robots.  Families of key people in law enforcement and the military would be next.  These families would become hostages to ensure the loyalty of the topside goons.  Finally, useful civilians would be enticed underground or simply abducted.  Do not take a job down there under any circumstances.  The underground cities will be ruled by satan-worshipping collectivist control freaks with inherent difficulties in obtaining new resources.  All exits will be guarded.  It will be hell on Earth.  Those who get eaten quickly will be the lucky ones.

Yet even all these strategies combined will never defeat a determined and well-armed resistance.  See Afghanistan.  I think Americans will rise up once the dollar collapses and real, undeniable hardship sets in.  TPTB will also have problems paying their flunkies.  Then, revolution will only need a spark... something like a Tiennamen massacre.  Something so monstrous that informants clam up, workers get passive-aggressive, ordinary people offer sanctuary to guerillas and dissention spreads among low level enforcers, causing the upper ranks to use police state tactics on the lower ranks, breeding resentment.  All of these shifts will be exacerbated by stolen retirements.  Patriots need to hold their wad until these conditions are met.  Beware of provocateurs.  The side that shoots first will probably lose.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 02:31 | 3722856 Spanky
Spanky's picture



Then, revolution will only need a spark... New World Chaos

I've a few ideas about that.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 03:38 | 3722884 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"Use ruthless Russian mercenaries under the command of a UN "peacekeeping" operation" etc. etc.

this is this "American Nightmare" that prowls in the dark recesses of the web, "the world doing unto America..." etc. etc.

first, in the hypothetical possibility that America experiences a revolution, why should foreigners be involved? Americans have more than 50% of all the military hardware of the world, remember? and lots of soldiers and ex-soldiers. and, as your whole post attests, a certain dislike for foreigners which would make the very use of foreign troops quite a stupid move by whoever would come to this idea

second, why do all hypothetical revolutions in America involve copious amounts of blood? we are witnessing lots of revolutions and counter-revolutions where blood is generally kept inside of the bodies, where it belongs. sure, there are some very bloody civil wars, but they are not the only ones

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:41 | 3722328 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

Apparently you haven't served. The absolute majority would never bow down for this sort of crap. The "former soldiers" that you speak of fit in quite well with the gung-ho cops that are out there. It's a power macho-man gig. You'll find that most of these were fucked up in the head before they even joined. A dick-head cop can be identified with his first few words. Ate-up soldiers, the same.

Given the chance on a one way ticket to a FEMA camp, I'll be fighting back. If even 1/10th of the populace thought this way, TPTB's plans would fail... and then it will be "our" turn to set things right.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:46 | 3722347 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I did not join the military, you are correct.  I pass no judgment on those who do, but most who do pass judgment on me for not doing so.  If I believed that America was at risk from a foreign enemy I would fight.  I haven't believed any such thing during my lifetime (I'm in my mid-40's).  And I don't believe 9/11 was a foreign military threat.  At best it was a bunch of religious zealots.  At worst it was an inside job.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:54 | 3722368 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

Dude.... I agree with the majority of your posts and my comments above were not thrown out to be judgmental. I broke 50, so things could have very well changed from the time that I was in.

It's "us or them", it's that simple. Freedom does not come without cost. This particular round is going to be the most expensive yet. I'm not a brave man. I'm going to have to be whether I want to or not.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:02 | 3722391 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

"I'm not a brave man. I'm going to have to be whether I want to or not."

Well put amigo. These are the words of a realist.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:11 | 3722416 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I want to buy both of you guys a beer.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:36 | 3722647 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Most of the returning vets I've met on G+ seem to have a very good idea of the constitution, and remember what they took an oath to.  I've found it very encouraging.  They'll be on our side, in the main.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:51 | 3722353 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Yeah, the government had a fucking baby barbecue in Waco, and I didn't see the military marching on Washington in response.

And as far as marching on Washington goes, doesn't anyone remember learning about the Bonus Army during the Great Depression? Yes, veterans marched on Washington — essentially demanding money. And current members of the military drove them out! As I said below, money is what will keep the police state going. As long as the monetary system limps along, there will be plenty of people willing to ignore their conscience in the name of keeping their own children fed.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 02:37 | 3722858 Spanky
Spanky's picture



[M]oney is what will keep the police state going. As long as the monetary system limps along, there will be plenty of people willing to ignore their conscience in the name of keeping their own children fed. -- McMolotov

So what do you plan to do about it? You've read some of my ideas on the political side, what about your ideas on the financial side? Crash a TBTF or three?

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 08:26 | 3723059 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Crashing 2 or 3 TBTF is already part of the strategy of the oligarchs, to create mass hysteria... so you either prepare to exploit that occurrence... note recent articles referencing how Citi / Barclays / Chinese Banks are living on life support... note recent articles mentioning the crippling levels of derivatives losses... the people here, buying into this crap are as guilty of facilitating the scam, as the scammers fabricating this shit. Anyway, point is, we're already going to see the collapse of the entire banking system, because that is how the oligarchs will rob / pillage all of our wealth... that's why some people are saying to get your money out of banks... so what's your other plan?

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 10:52 | 3723655 Spanky
Spanky's picture


Credible scenario. Other plan? Political plan? A little something to flex our political muscles (if we have any). If we can't unify ourselves politically, little else matters.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 13:28 | 3724099 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Agreed. We need to flex some political and economic muscle... protests / stop work / stop buying / withdraw money / cripple the corporations.

You want to learn how to destroy the system, watch Sucker Punch. In that movie, the narrative metaphorically shows you that you destroy the big corporations first (including the banks), then the oligarchs / politicians, then the military / police system, then take back the communities.  Or something similar to that order... watch it if you haven't and have some spare time. You might hate it, but it's an interesting story as far as I'm concerned.

Or you can just stare at the girls in the asylum wearing very little. Most people did this. I however looked for the metaphor while watching the girls.

:D  Have a nice weekend.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 08:21 | 3723049 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Anyone that thinks we'll be saved by moralist suppressors serving the evil mother fuckers has not looked through enough history. How the fuck do these people think the Dark times in human history occurred? Genghis Khan, Alexander, Attila, Hitler, European Imperialists, US Imperialists, Japan, China, Russia, etc etc etc. The world is primarily filled with unarmed cowards who long ago surrendered to the sword, or maybe it was even BOO. That's what gives the oligarchs power, and they retain that power by providing just enough compensation to the suppressors.

Every episode in history had enough assholes willing to serve the overlords so their own will benefit... sadly, I know some assholes just like this... every ruthless leader had someone who believed in the leader's vision or was available to bribery. Even the Knights were the suppressors serving the lords of that time. There will be no shortage of assholes willing to serve the lunatics we call the oligarchs... look at the fucking world for god's sake, does no one see that a lot, a lot, of suppressors are willful participants? It doesn't matter if it was out of deception or collusion... the end result is the same. There will always be enough stupid / selfish / evil people willing to serve the interests of the oligarchs. There are currently a many million of them right now... scientists, doctors, engineers, business persons, armed thugs, etc. There is a support structure enabling every evil act we perform.

Unless we overthrow the oligarchs and their minions, we will be enslaved in perpetuity, oppressed to a devastating level that we'd wish we were dead. There might be a collapse that will transition civilization into harmonious balance... in my mind, it's impossible, because there will be plenty of stupid / selfish / evil people left over after the collapse to ensure sharing and caring does not happen. The world of Surplus must wrench the power from the breasts of those who support and defend the Scarcity model. There is no other way around it, except for worldwide awakening to the condition, and immediate cooperation to abandon the scarcity model to work within a new surplus model. Fat chance, given human history so far.

I agree wholeheartedly with the author, wages no longer determine how resources should be distributed. In a surplus society, wages become mostly meaningless.


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:06 | 3722402 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Well, the tech might not protect them, but how about the biological weapon?  They could create a weapon that kills everyone but the people that have the vaccine for it.  They hand the vaccine out to the people that will protect them and let the rest die.  They can selectively give people the vaccine to get total control over them.  Don't need F-35's and drones to lay waste to the population.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 00:11 | 3722791 Dealyer Turdin
Dealyer Turdin's picture

Mad cow prions, Aids, radiation... Get some litmus paper, put it on your tongue, make sure you're alkaline.  Borax, baking soda, MSM, avoiding round-up agriculture and corn-fed creatures, the body is a self-healing star-system... in a poker game with a bunch of cheaters.


History of Medecine

2000 BC- Here, eat this root

1000 AD - That root is heathen. Here say this prayer.

1850 AD- That prayer is superstition. Here, drink this potion.

1940 AD- That potion is snake oil. Here, swallow this piill.

1985 AD - That pill is ineffective. Here, take this antiibiotic.

2000 AD - That antiviotic doesn't work anymore. Here, eat this root.

2010 AD -That root is contaminated. ZHere, practice energy medecine.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:03 | 3722233 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

In the end, it all comes back to money. When the monetary system implodes (and it will definitely implode at some point), it will become impossible for the powers that be to effectively bribe soldiers and police, and maintaining supply lines for the security state will become a nightmare. The people in those positions will then turn on their masters.

But until that point, I agree with you that it's wishful thinking to believe the military and police will take the side of the common people. Human nature compels one to seek the most convenient way to survive, and for a while anyway, that will mean siding with a failing government at the expense of everyone else.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:21 | 3722270 prains
prains's picture

Private Security Contractors >>>>>it's a Growth business


Yes there will be a split, some will stay cuddled to the bosom of unce sam as it has grown quite ample from the lean years and some will side with us, the plebeians. The wild card will be the Mercs whose livelyhood will depend on their daily takedown by pitbull ratio. Just like in any concentration camp the scariest fucker is the convict with a club and a dog paid in bread to harass.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:28 | 3722287 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

And don't forget FEMA and its Russian counterpart have agreed to "exchange experts during joint rescue operations in major disasters” and to provide “security at mass events.”

I feel safer already.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:11 | 3722238 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

There are enough of us Veterans around to bring those guys over to the peaceful Liberty minded side. I am not assuming anything, nor am I incorrect. I am speaking as a person who has served as an Infantryman.


Those cops and DHS agents, they are a joke dude.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:26 | 3722280 knightowl77
knightowl77's picture

Well as a former infantryman (11B2P) and a former cop....I can tell you many (not all) will follow the Constitution, and will tell DHS etc to go f&*^ themselves....My OATH was to the Constitution and my country, not the fckn government....

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:30 | 3722294 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

What part of the Constitution supported the war in Iraq?  What threat were the Iraqi people to the U.S.?  How about Korea?  How about Vietnam?  Soldiers mostly follow orders and they will be told that they are supporting the Constitution when they are told to turn on their fellow Americans.  Just as most believed they were fighting for God and country when they bombed the shit out of women and children in those various places.  Again, no moral judgment.  I would do the same in the same situation (kill innocents).  But to believe that there is some imaginary line is naive.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:47 | 3722339 knightowl77
knightowl77's picture

When I was in the Army there was a very real cold war going on between us and the USSR. Most of the stuff we were doing (we were told) was to counter their moves...I expected to die in somewhere in Europe delaying an invasion by the USSR. I was in the 82nd ABN and what we trained for, was to parachute in, in front of advancing Russian armored divisions and buy the USA some 96 hours of time before our entire division was expected to be wiped out. That was what I volunteered for.

I never trained to kill Americans, never expected to.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:49 | 3722354 prains
prains's picture

And when the planes crashed into the towers, what did you think??

The new story to motivate will be over the top compared to that training exercise, it will go "core amreican values" flutes and all, it will be highly motivational and very convincing. You trying to tell anyone otherwise will make you a trrrrrrrrrrist!

These are the pro's we're talking about

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:56 | 3722371 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Flutes?!? Hand me my Chinese-made American flag pin and sign me up.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:02 | 3722389 prains
prains's picture

spots filled

but I'm sure the spot for "drummer walking unarmed into oncoming fire" is still open

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:10 | 3722356 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I respect your point of view and your bravery, but I would suggest that the cold war itself was largely propaganda.  The Russians were never going to invade Europe or America after we blew up a couple of cities in Japan (many say that is why we did it).   Mutually assured destruction etc.  That's really my whole point.  People sign up and serve to protect their country when duty calls, regardless of whether there was ever a real threat to American freedom.  In my view, the wars that have been fought since WWII have been for reasons that have nothing to do with our freedom.  Our freedom was never at risk from Korea, Vietman, Iraq, etc.  But most soldiers believed they were fighting for our freedom.

But on this 4th of July I will sincerely acknowledge your service and thank you for it.  I have great respect for people who put their lives on the line, even if I don't believe in the cause.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:58 | 3722770 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Man, the Warsaw Pact was supposed to break out from the Fulda Gap and zoom down B19 right outside my base. My life expectancy was supposed to be 20 minutes (barracks rumor, never saw the war plan).

But the thing is, the troops won't get any orders "Today you kill Americans." They'll get orders to be in formation at 0430 with their weapon.  They will get on trucks, go somewhere, get handed ammunition they didn't know would be issued, told to set up a perimiter centered on the courthouse. Now when the scheduled (gun confiscation, NSA, no food, whatever) protest happens, that the soldiers knew nothing about, many of the protestors openly carrying weapons, it only takes one person with an itchy trigger finger (either side) or a planted agent to start a bloodbath. They never expected or wanted to kill Americans.

It isn't going to be clear orders. It's going to be FUBAR.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 11:34 | 3723409 wtf1369
wtf1369's picture

I've seen all the posts from the old timers and yours sounds more right than any of the pie in the sky bullshit I've read about what troops would and wouldn't do. Mind you I'm no expert, my opinion is based only on what I saw as an enlisted jarhead from 91-99. FUBAR sums it up.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:46 | 3722344 King_Julian
King_Julian's picture

Times are a'changing Rand. The same shit doesn't work anymore. Fewer trust the gov to take care of things. I think even those that depend upon the gov to redistribute will grow to resent it. There will be a revolution all right but it won't be like Charles says. More like "I need to spend some time apart." We will decentralize, the hard way.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:56 | 3722359 prains
prains's picture

They know this;

that's why the new story will be irrefutable

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:29 | 3722634 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You know what that tells me...



You're fucking old. 11b30p here.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:37 | 3722317 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture


Plenty of us out here to spare. 

Quietly going about getting by.  And when that promise that our 401k would be there to retire on, or the one that our kids would have a better shot at making it big than we did doesn't quite materialize, there will be Problems.  Talk all the shit you want about fat dumb lazy Nascar watchin amurikanz.  It won't matter then, there will be blood and we're good, damn good at it.

The older ones, they're even more dangerous.  Like my father.  He's old enough that he's seen just about all he gives a damn to.  He'd love one more run, one more chance to step back to '67 and rock n roll.  Happier than a pig in shit on that day.

I think a big fucking surprise is coming soon. A winnowing of the gene pool.  It's going to have it's own channel on TV in the future.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:41 | 3722325 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

What if you and your buddies are convinced that many Americas are the enemy?  Isn't that how Occupy was portrayed?  And Snowden?  I don't see a lot of military guys standing up and saying "what the fuck are you doing calling Snowden a traitor?!"   TPTB know how to convince most of you that you are on the right/winning team.  

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:04 | 3722397 prains
prains's picture

All training exercises to fashion the best and most motivational message

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:09 | 3722410 20834A
20834A's picture

I was in the USAF when the Phillipine flower power revolution went down. We were under strict orders not to get involved in any way. I can't tell you how much money and logistic support GI's secretly gave- rides in 1/2 ton trucks, housing,etc. Mebbe our guys will play soldier during the day, and sympathiser at night. I did. 

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:10 | 3722415 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Occupy was a bunch of hipster left douche Che Guavara wannabees that couldn't even get basic camp hygiene right.  Something that your average "grunt" manages to learn about the second fucking day he steps off the barber chair.

I don't give a rats ass about Snowden, he's not telling me anything that I didn't already suspect.  The NSA is spying on me?  No shit!  The IRS is being used as a political hammer.  Again, no shit.   I think Snowden made the mistake of leaving with only a right jab in his pocket.  No left hook.   Nothing to come across with.  Now he's up shit creek, else he would have spilled some of the beans already. He's got one bullet and starting to realize that in the end he'll want that one for himself.  IF.  IF the whole shebang isn't just some goddam snow job. 3 months since he hired and he's got the keys to the whole damn data kingdom?  Smells funny.  Like he's the Judas goat, going to bear away all the sin.

TPTB don't convince me of shit.  They, along with their delicately, WIC and EBT watered section 8 vote gardens sure as hell aren't "Americans" in any sense of my understanding.  I know who my enemies are.

And for now I wait.  I wait while I'm hunting deer, too and the reasons are damn near the same.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:15 | 3722426 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Occupy also included Tea Party members who opposed the bailouts, but TPTB seem to have convinced you it was solely your sworn enemy (left douche Che Guavara wannabees).  Enjoy the deer hunting.  I'm just relieved that Saddam didn't take that right away from you, because surely (according to TPTB) he wanted to.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:27 | 3722455 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Tea Party proved that votes and numbers mean nothing, the process is broken Bruce.  Votes don't work anymore. 

Mao was right.  True power, and all that jazz.  it sucks but that's what it will end up as. 

Don't plagarize me, my little angry desk flying man.  I garden.  I work IT. I pay taxes and drive as close to the speed limit as the next poor motherfucker.  But I'm awake and I think and I wait.  I don't need the TPTB to make my world go round.  And when they fuck up I'll be there waiting.  Not alone, either.

I'm the thing that TPTB should be scared of.  And I'm not even one of the "alligators" living out here in the swamps. 

and venison is some good shit. good for you, too.  try it sometime.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:37 | 3722467 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Your words suggest to me that you hate many Americans.  For example, lefty socialist Americans are also Americans.   Would you fight for them against a guy who wrapped himself in the flag and claimed he ate Gator meat for fun?   Are you one of those Americans who think Putin is the bees knees because he fights polar bears with his shirt off?   Spoiler alert -- he's a fascist dictator.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:40 | 3722568 noless
noless's picture

when fascism comes to America she will be draped in a flag holding a Bible.

Quit trolling.


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:52 | 3722581 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

How the fuck is it trolling to be commenting about an American Revolution in response to an article about the next American Revolution?

You stop trolling.  Serious.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 10:22 | 3723530 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Here's what this debate is really about.

Throughout history, people in the military have followed orders. All sorts of orders. A few have refused, but the vast majority do what they're told, and what they're told is to kill people, people they do not know, people often trying to defend their territory against encroachment.

Members in the US military have been no different in this respect. They have cheerfully bombed, shelled, napalmed hamlets/villages/towns/cities of people in countries that were absolutely no threat to the US (and no, I'm not talking about WWII, at least that could be construed as defensive, given that we were fighting the literal aggressors)

So, what puzzles me is how normally astute ZHer's like nmewn etc can suddenly ignore all the past, irrefutable historical evidence that the US military will do terrible things (like every other military in history), in favour of arguing from first principles like, well, I know lots of enlisted men and they would never dream of killing babies.

Do you think if you'd asked the enlisted men in the early '60s whether they'd help slaughter millions of civilians in SE Asia over the next decade or so? They'd have been shocked at the suggestion.... but that didn't stop them collectively going off and doing exactly that.

So my challenge to people arguing with LTER is this: what makes the current US serviceman so much more... noble... than all his predecessors? Or all the other 'honorable' men throughout history who were willing to kill strangers simply because they were 'ordered' to? What makes the current US serviceman so much less willing to do evil?

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 09:53 | 3723422 BigJim
BigJim's picture

 Don't plagarize me, my little angry desk flying man.  I garden.  I work IT. I pay taxes and drive as close to the speed limit as the next poor motherfucker.  But I'm awake and I think and I wait.  I don't need the TPTB to make my world go round.  And when they fuck up I'll be there waiting.  Not alone, either.

Let's see. So - from previous posts - you know everything you say & write is being watched. But, apparently, despite this, you've just outed yourself as an example of 'the thing that TPTB should be scared of'.


I agree venison is great, though.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:12 | 3722708 EINSILVERGUY


I'm not sure where OWS was promoted as the enemy. Every news media outside of FOX was lionizing these guys. While they were shutting down business, raping women in the tents and basically bitching about how they couldn't find jobs with there basket weaving degrees and 100,000 in loans for their 10 year degree plans, they never articulated what they wanted. All I heard was a bunch of bitching about how the world was unfair. Well no shit!  You want to see demonization and the forces of governmant evil turned against a group of people look at the shit the tea party has had and continues to endure. Obama and his minions stole the election through voter fraud and suppression using the Departments of Justice and IRS.  The silence on this threat to millions is deafening compared to a few hundred people sitting around a park in NY


Fri, 07/05/2013 - 02:50 | 3722862 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Just because we don't say it aloud, doesn't mean we don't think it. Appearances. Strategy. Opportunity. Action.

Occupy was contrived to blunt effective protest. Graeber's consensus model fucked it and the "anarchists" ran it into the ground. Disillusioned a lot of folks, I'm sure. Look how many here have already surrendered their voting rights. Their Constitutional rights. Same message as Occupy is being spread here...

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:09 | 3722247 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You assume everyone in the military has no integrity, honor or sense of duty to the people and the FD's.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:12 | 3722254 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

No, I think most do.  But I also think that propaganda is a powerful tool.  These nice military guys are willing to kill babies after they are propagandized enough, or do you think I'm whistling dixie on that point?  Go wave the flag and pretend that human beings are something else.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:23 | 3722273 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Speaking of dixie, our very own civil war should be enough to demonstrate that it's not wacky at all to suggest the military is capable of siding with the government against the people. Men fought against their own brothers for fuck's sake.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:27 | 3722284 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

They didn't just fight their own brothers -- they brutally killed them, burned their cities, etc.  Human beings tend to teams.  TPTB understand this and most people in uniform (not all) consider themselves part of a special team, band of brothers, etc.  Most will follow orders as they have been trained to do.  A few will resist and they will be branded terrorists/traitors.  Like a guy who tattles on the NSA may be.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:26 | 3722549 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

LTER, after reading your comments I believe you don't have many acquaintances who have a military background. I have many ( primarily rank and file) that would never under ANY circumstance do what you suggest. Perhaps the well connected officers that have a power base in Washington could be swayed but that would be useless if the foot soldiers couldn't be rallied. I recommend you take up shooting, join a range and talk to the members. Most are active duty or vets. Also attend gun shows and talk to vendors and patrons. You're view may be shaken somewhat. Yes, historically there have been horrible military events such as the My Lai Massacre. I just don't see that as a foregone conclusion.


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:55 | 3722588 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

So where is the military outrage over what Snowden has revealed?  Or is it just Team stuff?

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:28 | 3722630 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Why should the rank and file members of the military care about the divulgence of NSA and CIA mass surveillance? Is this a coup worthy event? I would imagine most would support Snowden unless his leaks have a direct effect on a military operation that could cost soldiers lives. My father served in WWII as an army foot soldier and was promoted (due to high IQ) to code breaking ( worked on Enigma) and army intelligence. These were completely different worlds that didn't have any association. I'm not sure why you think they should be so outraged.


Fri, 07/05/2013 - 00:51 | 3722805 prains
prains's picture

I thought you rank and file were sworn to defend the constitution against both foreign and DOMESTIC enemies who commit criminal acts against said constitution. Snowden just revealed your govt is not operating constitutionally hence YOUR OUTRAGE SHOULD BE GUARANTEED.

I don't understand how you don't GET this, it's a simple connect dot 1 to dot 2. it's not even three dimensional in difficulty


this discussion is a great example of the ZH-ex military echo chamber effect. You are all smart dudes, you put yourself in the toughest of places and lived to tell the tale. all due respect goes to you all, it was done honestly I'm sure but LOOK AT WHO YOU WORKED FOR. It's all crystallizing for you to see, the curtain has been pulled back, WHAT DO YOU SEE.....hopefully a multiple century long bullshit sham and you were the sharp end of the stick at some point in your service. Honest intentions aside, you served the "Beast". Now you need to serve your neighbor when this goes down, WHO of you has the real stones to call bullshit when many will be draped in the flag.

That is your true test

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 14:37 | 3724312 FEDbuster
Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:27 | 3722285 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"No, I think most do."

Good. Most do.

"These nice military guys are willing to kill babies after they are propagandized enough, or do you think I'm whistling dixie on that point?"

I do...and straight for "baby killer"? This isn't Roman times when captured cities babies were thrown into the air and caught on the tips of swords for sport.

No ones waving the US flag around here LTER (definitely not me)...but you're confusing a nations government with its people. Propaganda is only useful as long as its believed, find it lacking at its source one too many times, its not believed again.

I read this article earlier today, about one mans trip, from rocker to elite soldier to philosopher, well worth the read...

"As we made our way along what Columbia calls College Walk, I asked Everman what it was like to be a student after all he had been through. Everman smiled dryly. “It’s anonymous. Just the way I like it.” I suggested that his unique résumé might make him just about the coolest college professor of all time. “No way, man,” he said, shaking his head. “I don’t have the patience. I’ll probably just be a bartender somewhere.”

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:33 | 3722301 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

There's no such thing as a smart bomb, newman.  They kill babies and lots of good men dropped them with that knowledge.  I use the expression not be shocking but to make a valid point.  People routinely do unthinkable things when they are put in a uniform and told to go do it because the bad guy is over there.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:43 | 3722336 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Smart bombs are better than carpet bombing 20 city blocks in order to get a train depot. What naive world do you live in that you do not realize that as long as there are humans there will be war?

People do unthinkable things without a uniform too...apparently you don't read the news.


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:56 | 3722373 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Americans carpet bombed civilian populated areas in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, and other places.  

People do unthinkable things when they believe they are doing the right thing.  That's my point.  When the shit hits the fan, I expect most military/police will believe (due to smart propaganda) that they are doing the right thing when they stand up against "rebel" Americans.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:05 | 3722398 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...even after they now know, even they, are being spied on, watched, manipulated and lied to?

I don't think so.

But you're free to think and say whatever you want. And you won't have your head cut off for saying it or thinking it...others have made that possible for you, Rand ;-)

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:16 | 3722429 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Remind me which foreign enemy was a threat to my right to post here in my lifetime (I'm in my mid-40's)?   

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:41 | 3722481 nmewn
nmewn's picture

No one ever said an enemy of the people and the FD's has to be foreign.

It means just what it says..."against all enemies, foreign and domestic"...its up to a propagandist to redifine the oath and piss them off more than they already are.

To that one, I would say seeya, wouldn't wanna be ya! ;-)


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:27 | 3722551 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Okay, so what do you mean when you say that "others" have prevented my head from being cut off?

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:38 | 3722639 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I'm saying, all the laws & regulations in the world mean absolutely nothing without the use of force or the counteraction of those laws & regulations WITH force.

Is that plain enough for you?


And, do you and your happy little bot wanna take a shot and the grand prize?

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:45 | 3722489 knightowl77
knightowl77's picture

In the 70s when I served, we trusted our gov't so much more than we or I do today.......There was no Patriot Act, NDAA, NSA bs......

I fear my gov't much more than I fear any terrorist

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 01:06 | 3722823 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Some of us (including lefties like me) feel the same way.  Brother.  Fuck these guys.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:00 | 3722687 monad
monad's picture

The UN, their counterfeit government in the UN territory of DC, and Israel.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:05 | 3722400 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

We gave Saddam Hussein chemical weapons to use against Iran, then we went to war with him on the basis that he had WMDs. And this happened just a decade ago.

People seem to think propaganda won't work "this time." Why? I have no idea.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:40 | 3722472 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

You should've heard our former CEO of 15 yrs ago, who went on about his Bomber days in 'Nam. A proud, 9-5 bomb dropping asshole.

You shoulda heard his Motivational speeches. Even guys with advanced degrees fell for it.

I have no illusions about the spectrum of human nature, or the stats on how many are happy to be "Just following orders". Not all, but too many. Certainly enough of them.

Will admit that the US culture is a bit different critter, so... Am not surprised they'll have foreign Mercs partaking as 'appropriate'. If TPTB get desperate enough, they'll do ANYTHING.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:48 | 3722493 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Which kinda circles back around to this 15,000 Russian troops thing I commented on earlier on another thread and making the rounds on the internet.

Being as how they are being "stationed" in FEMA Section III, which encompasses DC, it doesn't show a lot of confidence in OUR troops willing shall I say...go to the mat for the current regime.

Just a thought ;-)

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 22:55 | 3722681 monad
monad's picture

15,000? We have 20,000,000 Jareds ready to blow when the immigration reform betrayal goes down. 15,000 can only be meant to guard the traitors, as they escape to their new lives, in the land of no private property.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 23:10 | 3722705 nmewn
nmewn's picture

In the whole scheme of things, 15,000 is pretty insignificant as far as WE are concerned...envision an overhead blimp shot of a 60,000 seat stadium, 25% full...not much.

15,000 for training in how we do FEMA is a little over the top.

It looks like a protection force to me...which tells me all I need to know ;-)

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:28 | 3722289 noless
noless's picture

Eventually people get tired of the bullshit rand, when the motherfuckers stop joking about raping your daughter, shit changes.

If the enlisted(or formerly) are such pussies that they actually put up with shit like that, then yeah, you're right. I know you like to harp on propaganda, but how does it play out in the ranks?

You really think that a group going in with men from their home turf are going to let that shit happen and abide by it?

High ideas man, yeah, but what does it mean when your families on the line?

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 00:10 | 3722789 XitSam
XitSam's picture

They have honor and an oath. The problem is that it won't be a clear question, "Do you have integrity?"  It will be FUBAR, a twisted mass of conflicting stories about who they are fighting and why. Throw in propaganda, "official" media, off-limits newspaper web sites. They won't have the information to make an honest, honorable decision.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 08:32 | 3723081 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I think this was directed toward me...

Yes, it would be a mess. But they're reading and witnessing the same things we are. In a lot of cases having the same conversations we're having.

I can say with 100% confidence these conversations are happening. I can also say with 100% confidence they don't talk about it with civilians. I know this for a fact, many have tried reaching out to them for what they think about it all. But the twinkle in the eye and the dry smile for a reply around the hunting camp or dinner table quietly speaks volumes to those they grew up with, family members & former co-workers.

Personally I think the local gendarmes, DHS etc. would be more of a problem than military...check this out:

"Anthony Mitchell and his parents Michael and Linda Mitchell sued the City of Henderson, its Police Chief Jutta Chambers, Officers Garret Poiner, Ronald Feola, Ramona Walls, Angela Walker, and Christopher Worley, and City of North Las Vegas and its Police Chief Joseph Chronister, in Federal Court.
     Henderson, pop. 257,000, is a suburb of Las Vegas.
     The Mitchell family's claim includes Third Amendment violations, a rare claim in the United States. The Third Amendment prohibits quartering soldiers in citizens' homes in times of peace without the consent of the owner.
     "On the morning of July 10th, 2011, officers from the Henderson Police Department responded to a domestic violence call at a neighbor's residence," the Mitchells say in the complaint.
     It continues: "At 10:45 a.m. defendant Officer Christopher Worley (HPD) contacted plaintiff Anthony Mitchell via his telephone. Worley told plaintiff that police needed to occupy his home in order to gain a 'tactical advantage' against the occupant of the neighboring house. Anthony Mitchell told the officer that he did not want to become involved and that he did not want police to enter his residence. Although Worley continued to insist that plaintiff should leave his residence, plaintiff clearly explained that he did not intend to leave his home or to allow police to occupy his home. Worley then ended the phone call.
     Mitchell claims that defendant officers, including Cawthorn and Worley and Sgt. Michael Waller then "conspired among themselves to force Anthony Mitchell out of his residence and to occupy his home for their own use."

The rest of the complaint is pretty revealing.

Fri, 07/05/2013 - 00:49 | 3722813 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

Fragging shave tail 2nd louies wasnt just a Nam occurrence.  Plenty were taken out in iraq and afghanistan and other places were ee never went.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 18:50 | 3722200 seek
seek's picture

Exactly. Dependence on force multipliers means you don't have enough forces. TPTB, even with all the military and police support in the country (support which in fact they don't have) are vastly outnumbered, likely on the order of 100:1.

The tech works great until it doesn't. All the NSA eavesdropping in the world is useless when teenage kids are hand-delivering notes between their parents when they go to the movies, just as an example. Once the chink in the armor is revealed people will get a lot more bold in their actions, e.g. when it goes down, it'll be like when east Germany fell: complete control to complete loss of control in under a week.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:47 | 3722340 Five8Charlie
Five8Charlie's picture

Good clip. Thanks for that.

But what I see is a heavily armored force that requires a lot of vehicles and logistics to get all that firepower moved around. And all that heavy armour makes the force slow and plodding. They never did find the kid - he was found by a civilian. The armor-plated cops couldn't keep up with one kid who was shot and bleeding.

If it takes that much force to not find one kid, I'm not too worried. It looks like the cops spend a lot on toys, not so much emphasis on real intelligence.


Thu, 07/04/2013 - 19:58 | 3722376 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

My point is that the citizens laid down because they were told there was a bad guy in their neighborhood.  No one (military, police, citizens) stood up against it.  We are told a couple of kids blew up a slow cooker, so we all lay down.  Think about it.

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 20:05 | 3722401 prains
prains's picture


then all of a sudden a picture appears

Thu, 07/04/2013 - 21:19 | 3722454 Five8Charlie
Five8Charlie's picture

I did get to think about it a bit that day - I was at home since the place I work was closed due to the lock-down.

Would I have let them in if they had come banging on my door? At first, I was thinking "Hell No!" But after a while I got to thinking that saying that to a heavily armed cop who really, really wants to shoot a bad guy is not going to make for a good day. So I'd probably have let them in, 4th amendment notwithstanding (so to say).

You know the best thing about that picture from Beijing in 1989 - the one where the Chinese man stood up to the line of tanks? The guy in the lead tank stopped and didn't run him over. That was just as impressive as the brave guy who stood alone.  I won't trust our LEOs to be so civil.

As you've been saying in this thread, people who have been trained to obey orders generally do so. Until those order start to be questioned (as they were in Viet Nam, so there is a precedent), I don't think a direct confrontation is a good play.

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