Desperately Seeking Snowden: Where In The Russian Airport Is The Fugitive Whistleblower?

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Yesterday, infamous whistleblower Edward Snowden, stuck nearly two weeks in the transit zone of Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, finally got some good news: first Nicaragua, then Venezuela (and moments ago Bolivia) broke the rejection letter trend, and in bombastic and very political fashion, offered him asylum (although as with everything in politics nothing is concluded until he is actually on some Latin American beach). However, a question remains: just where is Snowden right now? After all, following his initial public appearance and video with the Guardian and WaPo, there have been virtually no public sightings of him, despite his current location in one of the most public venues in the world: the Moscow airport.

Reuters wonders how this is possible: "The former U.S. spy agency contractor has managed to stay out of sight for two weeks since arriving from Hong Kong on June 23, hoping to fly on to a country that would not send him back to the United States to face espionage charges. The hordes of reporters who for days camped out in the hope of finding him have long since packed up and left. These days Snowden just provides sport for bored passengers trying to spot him as they while away the hours waiting for connecting flights."

Some are amazed he has managed to stay there for 2 weeks:

"I offered my kids $200 to get a picture of him," Simon Parry, a Briton, said as he waited in the interconnected transit area between terminals D, E and F, a maze of corridors, lounges, fast food restaurants and duty free shops."

 

"The wireless Internet is appalling, the prices are awful, and people never smile. So I commend him for making it 24 hours, let alone two weeks. I might rather face trial," Parry said, sitting with his family at a Burger King outlet in Terminal E."

Nonetheless, there are many options on how to spend one's time:

Could he have been tempted to emerge from hiding to grab a burger, to buy some of the tacky Soviet memorabilia in the duty-free stores, or the diamond-encrusted handbags on sale nearby?

 

Has he ventured out to admire the displays of red, green and blue Faberge eggs selling for 1,000 euros each, or browsed the 200 euro sunglasses, perhaps to improve his disguise?

 

Where he has been washing is also not clear, although some toilets and showers dot the transit area. Sleeping cannot have been easy - the hum of vacuum cleaners punctuates the night.

 

Food in transit area restaurants could be brought to Snowden, even if he dare not venture out himself. He could by now have exhausted the menu at Russian diners like Mama Russia, which offers blinis, red caviar and cabbage soup, or at the two T.G.I. Friday's restaurants offering more international fare.

 

Olga Samsonova, who has worked as a waitress for 18 years at Sheremetyevo, says the airport food is costly and that Snowden may have turned to handouts from Russian airline Aeroflot.

 

"That's where he's got his food from. I can't say much about what it tastes like but it's nutritional, more or less. And they give you yogurt for breakfast," she said.

 

She had seen dozens of people - mostly asylum seekers - take up temporary residence at the airport in the time she has worked there, including an Iranian woman who spent nearly a year in the airport with her children before receiving asylum in Canada.

 

"At least there are lots of places to sit down," she said, standing over stewed vegetables for sale under the fluorescent lights of Terminal F, built for the 1980 Moscow Olympics.

Still, just where is he in the Moscow labyrinth that is a flashback to the eponymous Tom Hanks movie?

The WaPo has some observations:

[Snowden] has made himself lost for nearly 12 days in a mile-long transit corridor dotted with six VIP lounges, a 66-room capsule hotel, assorted coffee shops, a Burger King and about 20 duty-free shops selling Jack Daniel’s, Cuban rum, Russian vodka and red caviar that costs four times as much as it does in the city.

Unless he’s across the runway in private Terminal A, in the watchful company of Russian officials.

Everybody wants to find him. Journalists want to interview him. The United States wants to prosecute him. And now Anna Chapman wants to marry him.

He has made himself lost for nearly 12 days in a mile-long transit corridor dotted with six VIP lounges, a 66-room capsule hotel, assorted coffee shops, a Burger King and about 20 duty-free shops selling Jack Daniel’s, Cuban rum, Russian vodka and red caviar that costs four times as much as it does in the city.

Thursday was a quiet day at Sheremetyevo but a normal one, with the packs of journalists tiring of the unrequited chase. Athletic teams from Mongolia and China made their way through the airport en route to university games in Kazan. Families with young children waited for flights to summer resorts.

Anastasia Shodieva was selling costume jewelry and stuffed animals at a souvenir stand near the Skoda car display, where the journalists camped out last week. When asked about Snowden, she had to be prompted.

“Oh, that sort-of agent?” she asked, adding that the affair made no difference to her.

The transit zone

The United States wants Snowden on charges of theft and disclosing classified information in violation of the Espionage Act. Scores of journalists were waiting when his flight from Hong Kong landed June 23 in Terminal F. No sign of him. Others filled seats on Aeroflot to Havana — airport officials said Snowden had a ticket for June 24 — and flew off, taking pictures of his empty seat.

The airport’s half-dozen buildings cover an area as big as about 100 football fields, set off a traffic-clogged road 18 miles from the city center. A transit zone, about a mile long, wends its way along the sides of terminals D, E and F, which are connected by a walkway so arriving passengers can board connecting international flights without having to pass through passport control and customs, which requires a visa.

Terminal D, the most modern part, has soaring ceilings and a men’s room with an age-old smell to it. Tatyana Yudina, at the register of a traditional, lacquered-wood crafts souvenir stand, shrugged at the name “Snowden.”

Last week, journalists staked out a chain called Shokoladnitsa, hoping they would find Snowden drinking a $7 cappuccino or an $11 nonalcoholic mojito with $9 blini and red caviar. Nyet.

The capsule hotel rents tiny rooms for about $15 an hour, with a four-hour minimum. No one was spotted going in and out Thursday, and the clerk on duty frostily declared that she wasn’t allowed to talk with reporters.

An odd choice

Russians are a little bemused at all that fuss over surveillance. Many believe that the authorities can read their mail at will, listen in on their calls and sprinkle bugs around as they please.

“Wiretapping is so common, so this is not news,” said Alina Gorchakova, a 48-year-old account manager who stopped to chat on a city street.

What doesn’t seem normal to many is why Snowden decided to go to Ecuador, his original destination, through Russia. Once he arrived here, with his U.S. passport revoked, Ecuador has grown less enthusiastic. Russia says he can go anywhere he likes — he just needs a destination and authorized travel documents. So why doesn’t he go? Or show his face?

And Svetlana Chibisova, a 45-year-old tour agency manager, found it strange that an American carrying U.S. secrets would travel by way of Russia, where security agencies are very much in control.

“I don’t understand what he was thinking,” she said. “Is he a little boy with no idea about the consequences?”

Olga Prokopenko, 40, deputy director of a pharmaceutical company, said the Snowden affair sounded like a fairy tale. “How long will he have to stay in the transit zone? What is he eating there, and where does he sleep? Has anyone seen him at all? Strange.”

“I really wish he could be in some other transit zone,” she said, “because you never know what our authorities will do.”

Often, the television news doesn’t add up, said Yuri Artemiev, a 73-year-old retired aviation engineer.

“I don’t like this situation,” he said. “It looks like they wanted to get benefits from him being here and then something went wrong — as always.”

Snowden has become something of a ghost, said Igor Pavlenko, a 37-year-old sales manager.

“I am not at all sure that we are being told everything,” he said. “For example, as far as I know, he is in Sheremetyevo now. Okay, but maybe this is just one version. Have they shown us video or pictures of him in Sheremetyevo? No!”

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Sat, 07/06/2013 - 11:14 | 3726279 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

he'll become like that character in that stupid tom hanks movie (which is redundant) where he lives in the airport for years. actually Snowden is at a Moscow CIA safe house drinking scotch and having a good laugh  about how they put one over on the NSA in this inter-agency pissing contest.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 11:20 | 3726296 maskone909
maskone909's picture

Kinda funny that his name is snowden, similar to snow job- or bullshit. Is this some sort of sick joke? After all, it makes one wonder, is this whole thing some part of a disclosure project aimed at informing the masses that everythigng they do and say is being monitored? Thus making the too afraid to do anything about it?

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 11:38 | 3726335 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

It's funny..., but Snowden and Boris are both missing.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 11:52 | 3726350 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

To welcome Edward Snowden

Nicaragua's beautiful girls are already dancing in skimpy outfits

with popular Nicaraguan musician Gustavo Leytón

Great hot babes in his music videos

Nicaragua at its sexiest and most delightful -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7vwBoiZea0

---

Still is puzzling why Snowden would reject asylum in safe and secure Russia

In favour of Central / South America where CIA agents are very active and could much more easily kill or kidnap him

Maybe Snowden is partial to groups of petite barely-dressed Latinas in hot weather, like in the video above

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 12:26 | 3726404 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Not even a Planters Peanuts jar in the recyclable waste...

~~~

The NSA is going to have to hire an art student to mock up a Catherine Zeta Jones mosaic with a pissing Jesus fountain to cover their tracks on this one...

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 13:04 | 3726468 Homernomics
Homernomics's picture

Hey, can we get a different picture of Snowden attached to these MSM articles?  Does he even have a right side profile shot?  (I thought I saw one, but then realized it was just a reversed left side image).  Or do we just get the same photo, attached to the same "news" article, published by our core of "independant" and "investigative" journalists?  

 

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 13:46 | 3726532 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Sorry, there's only one known photo in existence in which he appears, and it's that one. Live with it pal. Heheh.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 14:01 | 3726561 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

CIA's google claims otherwise:

 

Someone posted yesterday, that Snowden ainT gay.

Dunno, got his pants down in that image for somebody...

And he's got clothespins on his nipples.

 

Very interesting guy.  Or ... well...

those images are probably for disinformation.  :-(

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 14:11 | 3726582 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

Assuming this guy even exists...

 

... the Zionist Press has created an interesting personality:

 

He asked for a medical leave in May to get treatment for epilepsy.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 14:31 | 3726609 malikai
malikai's picture

Russians are a little bemused at all that fuss over surveillance. Many believe that the authorities can read their mail at will, listen in on their calls and sprinkle bugs around as they please.

Go back and reread all of those "comments" and ask yourself if these answers may just serve a purpose. I'll say these are either carefuly chosen answers, or the message is simply for you to conclude that this is here to stay, live with it.

I love how this non-news always comes to very subtle, convenient conclusions. And of course WaPo would never, ever run plant or conditioning stories.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 15:18 | 3726680 Troll Magnet
Troll Magnet's picture

Bingo. These "journalists" usually have their narratives all set up. Then they grab quotes often out of context to support their narratives.

Oh yeah. Our media is owned and run by the Joos. If people don't fully understand that truth, they deserve what's happening to them.

Hey America! You can act like a tough guy until the cows come home. But why are you Israel's little bitch?

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 20:42 | 3727260 MillionDollarBogus_
MillionDollarBogus_'s picture

Wherever he is, you can be certain that the NSA is watching him, waiting to snatch him.

Now realizing the USA has the power to ground the Bolivian leader's plane in Austria, enroute from Moscow, sends the message that you don't fuck with the NSA and get away with it.

Understanding the world of shit he's in, he's probably not sleeping very well..

He's a slice of white Wonder bread, and the NSA is the toaster.........

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 00:04 | 3727527 Clashfan
Clashfan's picture

NSA toaster or bread starter? Or both?

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 07:40 | 3727903 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Boris check on Saturday, and is find Mr. Snowden in Cinnabon. Is much coveted job for Russian to work in International Airport, even in food court.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 19:57 | 3729240 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

@MillionDollarBogus_  Buddy, the NSA is a bunch of incompetent losers who never got the job at Google and are now getting back at them...  jeesus...

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 15:27 | 3726709 Best Satan in Town
Best Satan in Town's picture

If Snowden did exist, he's in quite the Catch-22.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 22:25 | 3727453 mofreedom
mofreedom's picture

i posted he was not gay...wanna fight about it.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 11:54 | 3726351 General Decline
General Decline's picture

" Venezuela (and moments ago Bolivia) broke the rejection letter trend"

Why the change of heart? Did those countries cut a deal with the CIA? Be careful Eddie.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 12:40 | 3726423 americanreality
americanreality's picture

Might have something to do with forcing the reroute of Bolivia's presidential plane.  Wonder how the nsa got the "tip" about snowden being on board.  Me thinks the nsa got played by a phony email.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 12:54 | 3726443 TheMeatTrapper
TheMeatTrapper's picture

My thoughts exactly. Would be a great way to test your comms and see if they are secure. Send an encrypted email on your most secure channel - and see if they take the bait. If they do, you know they're reading your comms at will. 

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 13:32 | 3726504 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Maybe he/they pulled the ultimate shell game and he's still in the U.S.  Email strings and phone calls routed in a way that puts the NSA on a cold trail.  The assumption in this whole thing is that the NSA is king of the mountain, perhaps they are not.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 14:30 | 3726616 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

Or he is still in China.  Wouldn't that be a hoot.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 15:05 | 3726669 phaedrus1952
phaedrus1952's picture

Tribe, a thought experiment for ya ... prompted by a phrase that arose several months back "factions of the US govenment are waging war on one another" ... S'pose you could gather data to an unimaginable degree ... but did not control the dissemination of same. In fact, you did not make the determination to whom should be spefically "targeted" (we ALL are), you just set up and administered the technology.  Now suppose you had a modicum of integrity/loyalty to the US, would you be upset that your institution was increasingly staffed by non-Americans?  That private companies could/do learn about financial/political/personal info on ... well ... everyone? That said info may lead to crack FBI agents "falling" out of helicopters? That 13 year old girls like Macaila Marshall and her brother could be executed for the transgression of being unexpected houseguests at her father's house (whistleblower/author Phil Marshall) five months back in California? 

Where do you go? To your local congresscritter, the star of umpteen "unorthodox" sex videos your org. has (and who knows how many others)?  This is a very deep rabbit hole and I feel time is very short.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 00:04 | 3727603 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

It's all about the FRNs.  As long as that religious belief holds up, this can go on a long time.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 16:46 | 3726815 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

http://reason.com/blog/2013/07/05/ecuador-reveals-who-bugged-their-embassy

Put one and one together since Snowden has been in contact with wikileaks. In the new normal agencies use contractors usually layered through other government intelligence services to do their dirty work in friendly territory.

Earlier this week, Reason reported on a scandalous discovery made by the Ecuadorian Embassy in London. Staff at the embassy found microphones planted in one of the offices. Ecuador said it would announce on Tuesday who was responsible for the bugging.

“We have reason to believe that the bugging was carried out by a company called the Surveillance Group Limited,” said Ricardo Patino, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, at a press conference in Quito, Ecuador. According to Patino, the company is “one of the UK's biggest private investigation and undercover surveillance companies.” The minister presented photographs of the devices and explained that they could be turned on remotely with a cell phone. Patino also requested that the British government join Ecuador in conducting an investigation to determine the extent of the surveillance.

Timothy Young, the CEO of Surveillance Group Limited, denied Patino's claims. A press release posted Thursday on the Surveillance Group's site states:

We have this morning heard an accusation the source of which is apparently Ricardo Patino, the Ecuadorian Foreign Minister suggesting that we have bugged the Ecuadorian Embassy. This is completely untrue. The Surveillance Group do not and have never been engaged in any activities of this nature. We have not been contacted by any member of the Ecuadorian Government and our first notification about this incident was via the press this morning. This is a wholly untrue assertion.

The Worcester-based company boasts elsewhere on its site that it “combine[s] the practices, skills and experience of Special Forces, Police and commercial surveillance to create an entirely new form of surveillance. They also lay claim to a worldwide network of surveillance teams: “We employ teams in cutting-edge surveillance work across the UK and with teams strategically placed in Europe and Canada.”

The microphones were discovered in electric outlets in the office of Ana Alban. Although they were found in Mid-June during a diplomatic visit, Patino previously explained that the Ecuadorian government decided not to make the information public until this week in order to avoid further confusion and tension. His traveled to the embassy to meet with Julian Assange, who received political asylum from Ecuador and has been living in the London embassy for over a year. Patino also met with British Foreign Minister, William Hague, to discuss potential ways of resolving the tensions that have been growing between Ecuador and the UK over the last year because of Assange's presence. London maintains a constant police presence around the embassy and intends to arrest and extradite Assange if he sets foot on British ground.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:12 | 3729273 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

It's pretty Hilarious, the UK is the worst police state in the globe, even worse than the US.  If Churchill were alive, he would be a terrorist bombing these fucks.  

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 15:44 | 3726737 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

funny you mentioned venezuela (peru?), bolivia, (ecuador?), argentina (suriname?) and even peru not to forget-- ?nicaragua?...

***Nicaragua is officially under "China's Nat'l Security Policy umbrella?"

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 11:54 | 3726358 Stackers
Stackers's picture

ROFL. Luv the average Russian response. "Well of course the government is reading all our mail and planting bugs wherever they want - thats what the govenrment does - silly Americans"

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 14:14 | 3726587 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

Snowden hasnT told us anything, we didnT already know.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 15:17 | 3726688 phaedrus1952
phaedrus1952's picture

Exactly right, TB, but this route of dissemination seems to be having more impact than Binney's or Tice's or Sibel's efforts.  Maybe the NSA realized that creating a phony reality phony reality is the only way to get their message through to the masses.  

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 16:03 | 3726768 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

yep.

 

a real phony reality real phony reality.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 19:21 | 3727102 ebear
ebear's picture

or a genuine fake

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 19:08 | 3726830 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Wrong. The average American didn't know because they are naive and /or sufficiently conditioned to believe otherwise via the information control channels aka the TV, education system, hollywood, etc. That only includes those that aren't ignorant or down right I like cake dumb. What they don't want you to know is you can NSA proof your communications digitally (at least until they develop the next round of technology and techniques to defeat it).

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 22:30 | 3727460 mofreedom
mofreedom's picture

he has more than you want to know...it's all out there...you just dont have the code yet...hold tight.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 12:49 | 3726439 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Maskone909, it's Snow Den.  Or S. Know Den.  ;-)

And he needs to get Simon Black's advice/counsel.  Ex-spook to ex-spook.

Sorry, could not resist.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 18:59 | 3727051 ebear
ebear's picture

"Kinda funny that his name is snowden, similar to snow job- or bullshit."

 

It can also be read as "snowed-in" - a condition of nature that restricts movement.

Note that polar bears build a snow den during winter, and where is Snowden now?  In the land of notorious polar bear wrestler, Vladimir Putin.

Also note that the character Snowden in Joseph Heller's Catch-22 quite literally spilled his guts - an idiiom which means to confess or divulge secrets.

as to the question of how many Snowdens there are

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/alike/alike.htm

further research here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x-eL4Nvy9s

 

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 00:10 | 3727620 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

As someone said earlier, we live in a time with aptly named guys like Niel Cashcarry and Berni Madoff.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 11:25 | 3726301 trollin4sukrz
trollin4sukrz's picture

say what you want about him being a gov plant, but it sure is waking up the last of the stupid sheeple.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 13:01 | 3726461 BeaverFever
BeaverFever's picture

He may be just reinforcing the beliefs of those of like minds. The true sheeple who make up I believe over 80% of the US population don't know who your Vice President is let alone what a Snowden is.

Wishful thinking that the sheeple are somehow becoming aware, IMO. The gov't is more likely just gauging how many of us are actually motivated enough to act upon our loss of civil liberties - and track and trace where we are located for future enforcement.

Forward!

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 13:13 | 3726479 sgorem
sgorem's picture

don't count me as one of those 80% who didn't know Spiro Agnew is the vice president, dammit!

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 14:06 | 3726566 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

And the "nattering nabobs of negativism", swine that they are.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 15:58 | 3726759 BidnessMan
BidnessMan's picture

Pretty amazing to think ol' Spiro was the Republican Governor of Maryland before being Nixon's VEEP.  Can't quite imagine a Republican elected to any office in Maryland these days.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 15:32 | 3726718 phaedrus1952
phaedrus1952's picture

I'm becoming increasingly skeptical of viewing the US government as a cohesive entity, Beav.  The DHS should certainly prompt concerns, esp if they are the recipients of much of this NSA-generated data (THE NSA itself does just about ZILCH with it, I think, as they have no operational arm). The missive put out by Snowden the other day, to wit - an angry and informed populace is what is most feared by those in power - is what this entire narrative may be all about.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 11:25 | 3726303 magpie
magpie's picture

He's in one of those newfangled coma states, like Ariel Sharon and Nelson Mandela.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 13:22 | 3726466 socalbeach
socalbeach's picture

Maybe he's hanging out with Anna.

 

http://www.larazon.es/documents/10165/0/image_content_medium_753021_2013...

 

From article: "And now Anna Chapman wants to marry him..."

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 14:28 | 3726612 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Anna's got the hanging out part er, covered.

 

(damn Pimsleur anyway..)

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 14:26 | 3726606 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

LOL

Oh wait - Jews have a purgatory?

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 11:57 | 3726360 LiquidityandLunacy
LiquidityandLunacy's picture

Well he sneaks around the world, from hong Kong to helmanchyanyena he's a sticky fingered hacker from prism to Paris. Hell take you for a ride on the internet superhighway tell me where. In the world. Is. Edward fucking-snowdon....dooo woo.... Do do be dooowop

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 12:55 | 3726446 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

He could also be in the Psy Ops wing of the FSA, where all his little secrets (including laptop passwords) are getting extracted with "good shit".  But I hope that's not the case.

I do think though that the time is at hand or damn close to it, to release the real juicy bits on the NSA.  The problem is, that his hosts would rather make private/national use of it, rather than share with the rest of the ungrateful planet.

The current state can't hold much longer.  Everybody seems to be ante-ing up.

Sat, 07/06/2013 - 13:53 | 3726544 Freddie
Freddie's picture

F TV, Hollywood and idiot libturd Tom Hanks.

A couple of sites I follow have been saying Snowden is al-CIA-da.

Washington Post is CIA and Reuters is the House of Roth.

 And Svetlana Chibisova, a 45-year-old tour agency manager, found it strange that an American carrying U.S. secrets would travel by way of Russia, where security agencies are very much in control.

“I don’t understand what he was thinking,” she said. “Is he a little boy with no idea about the consequences?”

Little boy?  LOL!  The reporter should have asked her to say "moose and squirell." 

I hope Snowden is the real deal.  If he is CIA then I hope they F up the other guys - not like either one is our friend. 

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