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What Germany Thinks Of "The Biggest Bugging Scandal In History"

Tyler Durden's picture


Having taken the US, Hong Kong, Russia, Europe and of course Latin America by storm, Snowden's revelations are now focusing on the symbiotic relationship between the NSA and Germany's (very experienced) secret services.

According to an interview that will be published in this week's edition of Spiegel, "American intelligence agency whistleblower Edward Snowden criticizes the methods and power of the National Security Agency. Snowden said the NSA people are "in bed together with the Germans." He added that the NSA's "Foreign Affairs Directorate" is responsible for partnerships with other countries. The partnerships are organized in a way that authorities in other countries can "insulate their political leaders from the backlash" in the event it becomes public "how grievously they're violating global privacy." Telecommunications companies partner with the NSA and people are "normally selected for targeting" based on their "Facebook or webmail content."

In other words, more of the same everywhere that "developed" people are "hated for their freedoms" (sic).

So how does Germany - which unlike the US, has had extensive historic experience with assorted iterations of secret police, first the Gestapo then Stazi - react? The following opinion piece also from Spiegel exposes how different, and also how familiar, the German and US responses to the "the biggest bugging scandal in history" truly are.

From Jan Fleischhauer of Spiegel:

Having experienced two dictatorships with notoriously effective intelligence systems, Germans are furious about NSA eavesdropping. Now they want to put even stricter rules in place -- but without paying the necessary price.

So maybe I'm not in the best position to comment on the NSA spying scandal. Ten days ago, I traveled to the United States to stay in a vacation home on the East Coast. "As a patriot, I find that traveling to America has become unacceptable," a colleague of mine texted me on Monday. In my own defense, I can only say that the scope of the scandal could not have been foreseen when I began my journey.

Since then, however, one has much to fret about. If I understand things correctly, the Americans are in the fast lane to setting up a state of hyper-surveillance in Europe ruled over by data dictator Barack Obama. And all good Germans are united in their outrage. Even Sigmar Gabriel, head of the center-left Social Democrats, is calling for prosecutors to launch an investigation into the head of the NSA.

Here in America, it's hard to come by reliable information on the scandal. I open up the New York Times every day hoping to learn something deeper. But even though it's the leading newspaper among the world's left-leaning elite, it only devoted a small side section to the biggest bugging scandal in history. On Tuesday, it broke a pattern by publishing a piece about the uproar sparked by revelations that the US had bugged the EU diplomatic representation in Washington. But, of course, it only got a slot on Page 4, behind stories about Syria, Egypt and the lax lending practices of Chinese banks. In fact, the "Gray Lady" deemed its coverage of Wimbledon more important than writing about how the US intelligence agency has violated the civil rights of millions.

Different Concepts of Privacy

It's hard to explain to Americans how Germans see this issue. Try telling someone from the US why we Germans have no problem sitting in a sauna full of naked people but get nervous when the Google camera-car rolls by and takes digital images of our houses. I gave it my best shot, but let's just say this: Our concept of the private sphere is not immediately clear to people abroad.

I've also learned that it is no easy task to clarify to Americans why Germans are more than happy to consign their children to state care when they are just one year old but would go through hell and high water to keep their personal information out of state hands. In most cases, Americans don't like the state nosing into their personal affairs. But, when it comes to internal and external security, they have resigned themselves to the necessity of government meddling.

For some reason, we Germans have taken the exact opposite approach: We delegate things to the state that we could take care of ourselves. But when it comes to issues we can't do alone, we don't trust the state to do them either.

The problem with American bugging is that it will never be exactly clear what we're supposed to be afraid of. The threat is rather abstract -- but that makes it all the more threatening.

To understand why Germans are so hyper-attuned to data-privacy issues, one probably has to look into our past. There is good reason for a land that has experienced two dictatorships -- one with a Gestapo, the other with a Stasi -- to be more sensible when it comes to the dangers of absolute monitoring.

Not Just to America 's Benefit

The sad truth is that the Germans have and continue to benefit mightily from America's spying program. Unfortunately, Germany is far from being an empty patch on the global map of Islamic extremism. And the lion's share of the information on the activities of extremists in Germany has been provided by the very agencies that we are now so livid about. They are America's eyes and ears on the world -- but they are ours, too.

So far, Germans have been able to count on others providing tips when things threatened to get serious. But that can't continue forever. Likewise, when it comes to the surveillance business, there are no free lunches. This has prompted the BND, Germany's foreign intelligence agency, to ask for more funding for its own Internet-surveillance activities. But, as things now look, we would prefer to give our intelligence services fewer means to defend us from attacks than to expose ourselves to accusations that we violated civil rights. The Green party has already branded the current fiasco as a "meltdown of the constitutional state."


Politicians should be honest enough with voters to spell out the costs, should the country move away from data surveillance. If a suitcase bomb were to explode soon in a major German city because we were too late in sifting through the meta-data of the perpetrators, it would be nice if the Justice Ministry could muster the courage to explain to people that these kinds of attacks are now the price we pay for the right to determine what happens with our personal information -- a right we currently place so much value on.

Why Bug the EU?

Yet one major mystery remains at the end of this week of outrage: Why on earth would the United States bug an EU embassy? What did the Americans expect to learn from such eavesdropping? Was it really so crucial for them to unveil why it's no longer forbidden to sell bent cucumbers in the EU or why restaurants aren't allowed to put olive oil dispensers on tables?

There can be only one explanation: The NSA must have a form of institutional punishment set up for its employees. Whoever screws up is forced to listen to EU diplomats talk for hours on end. But, on the bright side, the current fiasco will put an end to this particular violation of human rights as well.


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Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:49 | 3729340 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

what brazilians think of bankers

oops -- referees

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:57 | 3729367 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

My wife says that the Government spying on us is for our own security and that Edward Snowden

is a traitor. If she wasn't such a great cook, I would have left her long ago.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:59 | 3729372 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

you should consider taking cooking lessons.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:03 | 3729389 ACP
ACP's picture

On the subject of government stupidity, one of the plane crash victims may have been run over by rescue workers (probably trying to reduce the distance they'd have to actually walk):

"We're from the government and we're here to help."


Um, no thanks, please...just stay away.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:57 | 3729512 philipat
philipat's picture

Hey William (WB7) don't you have a Copyright on that image? Even so, you might want to waive the Royalties on this occasion in the name of a good cause??

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:05 | 3729561 Richard Chesler
Richard Chesler's picture

Fuck you Obozo.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:20 | 3729607 malikai
malikai's picture

1993. Emergency Broadcast Network.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:41 | 3729659 macholatte
macholatte's picture


Well I see the Germs really got screwed up on this.

Don't they know it's all Bush's fault.


Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:58 | 3729857 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

after ndaa and the guantanamo concentration camp, anyone who didn't look into the eyes of the kenyan and saw him for what he is deserves what's coming up

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 00:07 | 3729878 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I can't believe you stole someone else's icon and then posted this shit.  NSA much?

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 07:39 | 3730226 Dugald
Dugald's picture


No no no......and again no! don't you see, its really another fiendish British plot to baffle the krauts.......

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 18:47 | 3732228 Seer
Seer's picture

"Don't they know it's all Bush's fault."

Hm... perhaps, but perhaps they don't know the history of George HW Bush, of his being head of the US Central Intelligence Agency,of his being the promotor of a "New World Order?"

Thanks, Germany, thanks for providing the very instruments that are now haunting the entire world! (CIA and NASA got all kinds of "Good Germans" post WWII)  Welcome to BLOWBACK!  Now then, rather than trying to rid the world of the NSA why don't you start by cleaning up your own house (from whence these things seem traceable to).

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:30 | 3729467 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Yeah, yeah al-qaeda etc but ask her if she thinks Supreme Court justices and presidential candidates should be spied on, if so, why, and by whom.

On second thought just dump her

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:38 | 3729489 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

falun bong... I'm too old to look for a replacement and most women feel the same way she does

or don't have an opinion. But obviously, you feel as I do. Hey, you wouldn't be a single chick, would you?

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:45 | 3729511 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I hope the Tylers are listening.  Could make big money -- ZH dating service.  Meet like minded people, etc.  And they could have their own ads up.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:05 | 3729564 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

I'd go out with you just to kick a lefty in the nuts.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:08 | 3729575 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Go Red Team! -- the nutless team that is obsessed with my nuts and what I do with them.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:32 | 3729639 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

What Teams?  Both sides in the US are the same and both want you to put your nuts in a vise.  It's your leftist ideolgy that I despise and would like to kick you in the nuts for.  Wherever your ideology is expressed, whether in the US or any other country, the leftists destroy everything they get their hands on.   You know that, but you won't admit it.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:35 | 3729647 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Admit Reagan was a complete douche and I will have a conversation with you, otherwise you are just talking big people talk like using "nuts" in a sentence that doesn't involve candy bars.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:42 | 3729663 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Reagan wasn't a big douce, he was a massive douche-clown-b-grade-actor.


Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:46 | 3729675 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Harbanger is still masturbating to a picture of Reagan trying to think of how to respond.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:47 | 3729680 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You don't make the rules Lola, the sooner you realize that the better.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:50 | 3729690 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Enjoy your Reagasm.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:00 | 3729717 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

When you can't defend your bullshit leftism (never) you go off on your bitch rants.  Nice.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:22 | 3729769 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Obama is a giant douche liar asshole.  Clinton was a complete douche asshole.  Reagan was a ______________.  Care to fill it in, person who claims he is not a Team Member?

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:35 | 3729803 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You don't make the rules Lola.  Leftists will throw their own mother under the bus, so what you say is meaningless.  All that matters is they served their purpose of growing Govt.  Obama nationalized 1/6 of the economy with Obamacare.  You supported that, now he's a liar asshole to you.  Bullshit!  From Pres. Wilson to Obama, as long as your leftist centrally planned agenda moves Forward, all is well. 

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:43 | 3729817 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I thought so, upvoteyourself.  Did you use the picture of Reagan with the red tie?  Bet you did.  Sleep well.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:45 | 3729824 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

You too.  Sweet dreams.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:48 | 3729828 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Last word much?  P.S.  Don't get any of your Reagasm on the flag next to your bed.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:49 | 3729835 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture


Mon, 07/08/2013 - 02:31 | 3730056 Richard Whiskey
Richard Whiskey's picture

If it ain't right it's wrong?

What's that make me being left handed....

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 18:50 | 3732236 Seer
Seer's picture

And clearly you love it, otherwise why bait in the first place?

General Public Announcement: Anyone who thinks they have The definition of all these buzzwords is an ass-clown.  Further, anyone who can't comprehend the meaning of "exponential function" ought not be let out of the house (or on the Internet).

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 00:20 | 3729894 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Clever term. I once worked with a very smart high school graduate who was perhaps one of the most politically aware people I've ever spent any time around. He went on and on about Reagan, and how he used the credit card of the nation to purchase a false prosperity. He had rants that would run for hours, and he had a great command of the actual facts. I knew he was right on many accounts, as there were two reporters from the Philadelphia Inquirer who wrote a book in the late '80s (sorry, can't remember the name) outlining all the financial shenanigans that happened under Reagan. Even Bush called it Voodoo economics, which is saying something.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 01:29 | 3729991 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

To the downvoters too weak to provide a substantive argument, I would suggest you learn the facts about Reagan before jumping on that train.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 03:14 | 3730078 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You're getting downvoted because you morons think Reagan is a hero to those of us here.


Most of us are anarchists.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 03:43 | 3730088 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Harbanger seems to think Reagan was great, so I will leave it to him (her?) to clarify.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 05:10 | 3730138 Acet
Acet's picture

Don't expect much.

It has been my experience that those that go around tagging large swathes of people (for example, "lefties") and blaming them for everything that's wrong, are not exactly profound and wise thinkers.

The inability for self-criticism and to change tack on one's ideology is the mark of the uncritical brainwashed sheeple whose ideas were fully formed by others.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 15:48 | 3731653 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Hi Geekgrrl,

I'm back.  I didn't notice you last night.  What makes you say I think Reagan was great?  I never mentioned him.  I simply wasn't playing along with lola's deflection of my criticism of leftism.  Lola is obsessed with reagan as are many liberals,  I don't know why, maybe you can shed some light.  To me he was just another president, not the worst, not the best.  I'd love to have an discussion with you at some point about different ideologies which you seem to not understand.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 16:47 | 3731871 NumNutt
NumNutt's picture

Maybe they hate him so much because the largest shit hole leftwing government failed under his watch (USSR). The leftist may hate him but I can say that after living through the Carter fiasco of the 1970's (it was so much fun trying to figure out which day of the week you could buy gas depending on the odd or even number on your license plate). And now struggling under this cluster fuck they call the federal government run by self proclaimed socialist Obama, I would gladly take 4 more years of Reagan 'Vodoo economics'.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 21:37 | 3732763 Seer
Seer's picture

Yeah, right, Reagan was the reason for a HORRIBLE system's collapse, not the FACT that it was a horrible system.  Bad systems FAIL!

Reagan didn't feel it necessary to abide by the Constitution, just like Obama.  Supporters of either are people I would never look to create a "better world in/with."  I detest ideologues and Party Pussies.

Left, Right.  I'll prefer to stay Correct, thank you.

BTW - Reagan is dead.  Long live Reagan!

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 21:01 | 3732658 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

You're right, you didn't bring up Reagan, that was LTER.

But, I think Reagan marked a turning point in our history. Carter said things people didn't want to hear: you need to conserve energy. He should know, being a nuclear engineer and energy-aware. But with the election of Reagan, what I personally sensed was a disconnect from reality in the population. The population here bought into an unsustainable fantasy based almost entirely on military and economic conquest in the pursuit of oil. Now that the chickens are starting to come home to roost, is this really such a surprise?

I would be happy to engage with you, because I think there is probably little difference between our views. One thing I have noticed is your use of the word liberal and so even before we engage, I would like to know what your definition of this word is.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 20:06 | 3732506 Seer
Seer's picture

"Most of us are anarchists."


Did I miss the survey?  And if there was a survey, just what KIND of anarchism were the "true" anarchists' voting based on?

[NOTE: I'm trying to be both funny and serious.  I'd find this to be a most interesting topic for debate, though I don't know whether it's a safe debate to be had when the fascists/marxists are tapping into all our correspondence (I'd have to guess that if there's one thing that BOTH "sides"(?) agree on it's that anarchists present a direct threat to their power)].

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 21:08 | 3732677 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

These are great questions and I agree it needs open debate. I also agree that this environment does not lend itself to these kinds of open discussions.

But I will say that heteroarchies would be much preferable to the existing hierarchies. Anarchy would be ideal, but I suspect there will always be folks who want to profit off the labor of others.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:04 | 3729393 Steel Magnolia
Steel Magnolia's picture

Obviously she is spending way too much time in the kitchen. Snowden is not a traitor in my eyes. Obama is the traitor to anyone that is paying the least bit of attention. He gets more dangerous every day. God Help the USA because we are in a heap of trouble. The enemy sleeps in Our White House..

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:16 | 3729427 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Dude-  Obama didn't know about this.  He just learned about it when he read this article.  And he's pissed.  He's TOTALLY against this shit.

Don't worry, he'll straighten this out.  He just needs more time.  His plate is full of a lot of other stuff he just became aware of recently- IRS scandal, Benghazi, AP scandal, etc.  He's just one guy trying his best against a whole city full of people who hide the truth from him.  He's got to prioritize, but don't worry- he's going to straighten this out.


Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:31 | 3729469 Go Tribe
Go Tribe's picture

Oh, thank goodness. I was beginning to doubt his commitment to my well being.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:35 | 3729480 mickeyman
mickeyman's picture

And Guantanamo. He's just discovered that terrible abuses have occurred there.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:44 | 3729509 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

It sounds funny, but this is clearly indicative of the strategy they, whoever they are, have devised for him. He is an oblivious fool surrounded by people who are told they can do whatever is plausibly deniable as long as it does not show up in his TV den.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:48 | 3729519 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Been the strategy for a while.  Bush wasn't reading about pet goats to kids during 9/11 by accident.  It's odd that this works.  You would think people would be pissed that their elected leader is (potrayed as) clueless to all the bad shit being done under his nose.  

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:51 | 3729526 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

WB7, The oblivious fool hand picked those around him. Obama must take credit for their iniquities. 

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:49 | 3729684 macholatte
macholatte's picture


The oblivious fool hand picked those around him.


Not even close.   See Center for American Progress.  Nothing happens in the Sotero administration without the approval of CAP.  And it wouldn't have mattered if Clinton was elected because CAP was her idea and funded by Soros.  Look it up.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:17 | 3729761 slimething
slimething's picture

I thought it was CPUSA. Same difference.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:30 | 3729796 macholatte
macholatte's picture


So you don't get confused .......

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:34 | 3729802 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Don't forget this one either.


Mon, 07/08/2013 - 00:31 | 3729912 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Pointing out one of the centers of power gets a downvote?

I didn't know shills and trolls work on weekends, but I suppose we're in a 24/7 Total Information Awareness world.

Either that, or you have a follower.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 05:58 | 3730163 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

Two different web addresses.

That's the difference.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:24 | 3729778 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

That's actually pretty persuasive and supported by known facts.  The LEAST you could say is that Obama went in willingly on this.  He gets to be President, they get a lot of what they always wanted (for decades).  At it's worst, Obama is such a stooge he actually believed in it.

I prefer to believe he was smart enough to realize it was just a power and control game that he used to his personal advantage.  But my gut tells me he might have been (still be) a 'true believer'.

It's bad either way, but one way is a lot worse than the other.  I would still take Hillary over this clown.  At least I know that Hillary sees it for what it is- a simple power and control scheme.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 08:01 | 3730135 malikai
malikai's picture

I promise you. He is fully aware of his actions and the ramifications of his actions.

He's a Chicago politico. That means he's a sociopathic power freak who wil sell your soul for anything. Mine too. His is long since gone.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 06:04 | 3730167 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

Barry got the role because it had been decided upon before Slick and his bitch even entered the game. Barry was groomed for this shit. Hillary might be the closer but I suspect not.

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 01:09 | 3744097 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

I agree with most of your comment, but about Hillary, I just don't think she would have been any better, and in reality, I think she could have been much worse. Just look at Bengazi.

All I can say is if another Bush or Clinton tries to run for president, they should be instantly disqualified.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:12 | 3729585 Fuku Ben
Fuku Ben's picture

That seems to pretty much sum up most American politics and politicians

Especially recent Presidents

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 05:44 | 3730154 RSloane
RSloane's picture

It allows Obama to maintain a victim position. Poor poor sad Obama is not given the information by his own administration to make sound judgements and act effectively. For his ardent supporters his contrived innocence allows them to keep insisting that its not Obama, its his advisors and people around him. So yes, he's an oblivious fool by design and intent.  

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:30 | 3729797 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

As soon as Obama finishes his golf game with his gay boyfriends.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 21:39 | 3732766 Seer
Seer's picture

"God Help the USA"

Gott Mit Uns!

The "enemy" is POWER.  Power is a traitor to liberty, but then again I thought that Libertarians understood this... (POTUS is, and always has been about power)

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:06 | 3729400 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

Feminism leads to the rise of dictatorships and the fall of capitalism.


Face it, women are afraid.  They fear so many things in life that men do not.  When they gain the power to vote, Socialism, Big Government and an alpha daddy State will always follow.  To them, to feel safe is to make sure there is a big alpha protecting them.  Government is that alpha.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:39 | 3729493 illyia
illyia's picture

That explains all the single mothers...

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:21 | 3729611 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

... subsidized by the government.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:23 | 3729615 Steel Magnolia
Steel Magnolia's picture

I disagree with that, not sure if you noticed, but women are more vocal than men these days. Need I remind you, there are a lot more men in Congress & the White House than women. Obama, Holder, Biden, Bernanke, Reid, etc. are all men, not worth a crap, but men nonetheless.  When you refer to women as being afraid, are you including Sarah Palin? She has been warning this country about Obama for 5 years. I don't recall one "man" standing up & defending her until recently because she has proven time & time again to be correct.

As a reader of this site for several years, I can say most of you have done a complete 360. I remember when a lot of you were HUGE Obama fans & now I wouldn't be surprised to see most of you at a Tea Party. Women were a huge presence at Tea Parties all over this country. Guess we have women's intuition or maybe its just a gift from God but we could spot a fraud a mile away.  So to blame all this on women, is a bit severe, don't you think? Just my 2 cents.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:03 | 3729723 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Are you sure you are typing on the right website?

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 03:58 | 3730091 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

She's read the site for several years. That makes her an expert on what we as individuals think.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:46 | 3729674 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Sorry but that's utter nonsense. Historical record is available for all to review.

And if you think I support (what) feminism (was turned into), you simply haven't a clue.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 01:51 | 3730010 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

I would be among the first to attack feminism for its flaws, but I am not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is a fundamental truth that women are saying and as much as you might not want to hear it, that doesn't change the material facts. And those facts are that men use force against women for sex. i.e. rape. I'm not sure what you think you're arguing, but you might want to stay away from this one because you are on the wrong side.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 04:26 | 3730104 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Sure you can ignore everything else about exchanges through the sexes like coercion and manipulation... It makes your argument more valid when you neglect to bring up all of the details, right?

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 05:00 | 3730127 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Dude, I don't think you want me to post the incest or rape statistics.

Rape is typically not about coercion or manipulation. It most typically involves force.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 08:45 | 3730347 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Not so sure about that one...

Every time I suggest sex, it seems I'm the one that gets beaten up.

What am I doing wrong?

Not enough alcohol?

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 20:37 | 3732604 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

While I know this happens, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 21:14 | 3732695 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

But you have freewill, do you not?

If you can't control your penis, your first argument is to blame the woman for coercion and manipulation?

Lame. And all the more so for the upvoters on your post.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:51 | 3729695 Steel Magnolia
Steel Magnolia's picture

In general it has been the men who have done the raping and the robbing and the killing and the war-mongering for the last two thousand years, ...and it's been the men who have done the pillaging and the beheading and the subjugating of whole races into slavery. It has been the men who have done the law making and the money making and most of the mischief making! So if the world isn't quite what you had in mind you have only yourselves to thank!!

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 00:00 | 3729860 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

Well, well, well.  I don't think I've ever met anyone who can quote Designing Women as well as I can.  ;)  LOL.

Did you know that Dixie Carter hated playing a liberal?  Every time she had to do a particularly liberal episode, she got to sing on another episode.  She was a Christian and a conservative in real life.  

Sorry for getting off topic!

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 00:18 | 3729890 Steel Magnolia
Steel Magnolia's picture

Wow, I am impressed you know about that show. Dangertime seems to want to blame all of this mess on "women" & feminism or some kind of crazy crap. It made me instantly think of Julia Sugarbaker & the ski weekend where she went off on all the guys & I sat there cheering her on. It was great.  I didn't know that she hated playing a liberal. I knew she was very smart & talented but even playing a liberal can be so depressing.  But I am not sure why he thinks blaming women will fix any of this mess.. But anyway, that's how that got started.

Thanks for commenting on it, you made my day!

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 02:25 | 3730053 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

And they say behind every great man is a good woman!

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 05:45 | 3730158 freet0pian
freet0pian's picture

Oh great collectivist can I make amends for the sins of my brothers? Or do I have to burn in hell like them? Is this some kind of original sin thingie or could I perhaps be judged as an individual?


Who raised these whacko brothers of mine?  Did the warmongering ass holes walk out of the womb and raise themselves? Or were they the victims of a single father?


I think there's more to this whole dysfunctional picture, just saying...

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 16:04 | 3731717 AKrandy
AKrandy's picture

You are correct, but if it wasn't for men, hunting, killing, foraging for food, etc , the human race would have died out a hundred thousand years ago.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:18 | 3729765 slimething
slimething's picture

Yeah, and then they want a driver license.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 01:36 | 3729997 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Your username is apropos, misogynist.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 01:22 | 3729982 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Do you think that rampant incest and rape in our culture (including rape in the military) has anything to do with the way many women feel?

Or are we being irrational?

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 04:27 | 3730107 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Where is this rampant incest and rape?


Mon, 07/08/2013 - 04:39 | 3730120 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Is your ignorance deliberate?

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 10:16 | 3730571 Umh
Umh's picture

Most of the sexual assault victims in the US military are men. That is a statistic that is overlooked often and on purpose by many people.

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 21:15 | 3747172 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Got a reference supporting this statistical assertion?

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 06:11 | 3730172 BigJim
BigJim's picture

 Do you think that rampant incest and rape in our culture (including rape in the military) has anything to do with the way many women feel?

What are you saying? That women tend to prefer Big Government because they face rape (and incest)? You don't need a large State to enforce anti-rape/assault laws. In fact, the State getting involved in everything else means it has fewer resources to devote to punishing genuine wrongdoing such as rape and assault.

In my experience, people who like Socialism are either beneficiaries of State spending, or economically & historically ignorant. In my experience, the vast majority of women just aren't interested in economics, and are easily hoodwinked by politicians peddling ever greater State involvement in their lives.

Is this cultural or innate? I don't know, but whenever I hear free-market advocacy it's far more likely to come from a man than a woman.

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 02:22 | 3744161 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Although I see many people agree with you, I really am having a hard time understanding where you're coming from. I thought my meaning was perfectly clear.

This has nothing to do with capitalism or socialism, it has to do with men raping women. Deny it if it helps you sleep at night, but I assure you that right this very second, a father is raping his daughter.

EDIT: The one thing I would add is that your denial that rape is rampant in our society is reflective of the overall problem. It's not a concern for you, therefore it's simply not even worthy of discussion.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 08:57 | 3730367 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

Why are women in the military? Women should not be mixed in directly with men in the military. Men and women are different. It's hard to expect a man or a women to be a killing machine with millions of years of female / male evolutionary distraction. The military is definitely weaker and will most likely be hurt in a real war with a real adversary.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 09:01 | 3730376 Acet
Acet's picture

"Face it, women are afraid"

This statement is an example of how modern machismo works in Anglo-Saxon societies. It's the whole message that "women are weak and fragile creatures", which is linked to other similar arguments such as "women have trouble fitting in the hard top corporate world". Sadly, following the pressure they get from these societies their whole lifes, many women end up learning to behave as per this stereotype, to the point that some in the Feminist movement actually demand women to be protected.

What a load of condescending bullshit! Some of the strongest people I know are women.

I don't know what are the female examples around you, but certainly both in Portugal and in Holland, women are no weaklings.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 21:42 | 3732775 Seer
Seer's picture

Seek help.  You've been doing too much Freud.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:37 | 3729482 nobodyimportant
nobodyimportant's picture

She also better be one hell of a piece of ass or kick her the hell out!

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:56 | 3729544 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Nobody... She was one, but that was in previous millennium. 

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 01:25 | 3729987 U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

Probably all that cooking she's doing

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:38 | 3729490 tao400
tao400's picture

there always ends up being a reason to stay with them, doesn't there?

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:49 | 3729524 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Sheep don't cook.  Unless by "sheep" you mean people who think Snowden is a traitor, in which case they cook well apparently.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:40 | 3729496 Jake88
Jake88's picture

50 years ago you couldn't have found anyone who is that stupid. Now half the country is at least that stupid.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:58 | 3729554 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Jake, that pretty well explains why we are where we are now.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:58 | 3729858 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

There is a difference between being stupid, which I grant you many are, and being ignorant, poorly educated, and propagandized. There is, of course, no cure for stupid.   

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 01:26 | 3729988 U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

That's progressive education for you

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 08:56 | 3730365 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

food is over rated

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:59 | 3729373 ootofthehoos
ootofthehoos's picture

Obama Hussein's Syrian Al Qaeda army is like that.The world has gone demonic.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 00:40 | 3729932 gearbaby
gearbaby's picture

This world has gone insane!!!!!

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:49 | 3729342 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Ha, Ha! Americans don't care! Americans have WALMART! 

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:51 | 3729350 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

Exactly. And Prescription Meds, booze, iShit, and whatever. That's why this smells like the endgame becaues they allowed this story to be revealed:


The Last 90 days of the USA

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:03 | 3729386 Promethus
Promethus's picture

John Galt praying to God in the last 90 days of the USA?

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:06 | 3729565 Surging Chaos
Surging Chaos's picture

"Sadly, the United States and much of our population have not only forsaken the hard fought freedoms won by our Founding Fathers, they have turned their back on God..."

Ayn Rand is rolling in her grave.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:21 | 3729772's picture

She's got the time. It's not like she's going anywhere.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:05 | 3729381 mofreedom
mofreedom's picture

germans don't care, there will be hillary tomorrow and they will gladly eat her moldy tampons, those sick nazis, God that's sick, but anything for a progressive, any reason to look hip and worldly.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:06 | 3729398 andrewp111
andrewp111's picture

Hillary still uses tampons??? At 65?? Who would have thunk it?

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:10 | 3729413 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

She banked a bunch of them 25 years ago to use as WMDs, her secret weapon.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 00:01 | 3729865 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

take it easy some people are eating

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:21 | 3729770 slimething
slimething's picture

OMG that is sick. True, but sick.


Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:51 | 3729347 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

It's got a funky beat... & I can GOOSESTEP to it...

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:10 | 3729414 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Merkel is being reported as engaging in "damage control" right now (election driven), but has just stated that this issue should not interfere with the upcoming EU-US free trade talks.  The reason is obvious.  Not only has the BND been doing the dirty, but the French have also had their cover blown as well.  Not to mention the UK which is still in the EU.  It´s probably a certainty other EU intelligence services have also been doing the same shit.  So if the EU gets worked up about it now, hypocrisy will make them look like immediate fools.

As to why spy on EU diplodinks?  A good portion of them don´t like the US...and the left-wing socialists think Obama has betrayed "principles".  They probably have been doing the same to US diplodinks as well.  They woudn´t be doing their job if they didn´t.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:25 | 3729452 Renfield
Renfield's picture

Love how the spying discussion seems to have shifted, magically, to whether the U.S. should spy on foreign governments (d'uh, yes), to whether it should spy on its own citizens.

Well, I don't love that shift as much as the MSM does. Because we're just so darn technologically advanced now that one is equivalent to the other, right? Or so they'd like us to think.

Not directed at you BTW; it's just that your comment made me remember one of the many ways the MSM is attempting to spin this so citizens will just accept it as somehow being for our own (double-plus) good.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:07 | 3729734 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Well, I live in Bavaria so I just write what is happening.  The ARD had a whole hour dedicated to the issue yesterday (Presseschau) and you didn´t hear much outrage.  One of the commentaters from the press came out and said, "Well, I wonder if the Constitutional Courts would make a public statement saying "If you want total privacy you are going to have to accept that German people may die the next time a terrorist leaves a suitcase bomb at a trainstation!".  Just a mear one week or so ago, the US was the Big Brother boogeyman in the German press.  Then Snowden slapped the shit out of them and exposed the BND.  Now everyone has been stunned with reality, and that is the BND and the CIA/NSA have been best buds since the 50´s on all manners....and generations of politicians from all parties knew the deal.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:27 | 3729785's picture

Germans and Americans alike should know that one has more to fear from government which interferes with everything one thinks and does than from terrorists who strike less frequently than lightening.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:51 | 3729349 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So this explains only 4,500 peeps in the peanut gallery at his Brandenburg Gate speech.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:53 | 3729358 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Maybe he ought to try his chances at the 'Love Parade'...

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:19 | 3729376 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...think he did that in Senegal.



To my O'Barry lover, he's being played for a fool, just like many before him. In all likelihood, the "Door of No Return" on Goree Island is where they dumped the garbage out.

Fitting for him I'd say, he should have went for a swim ;-)

"Historians claim that the entrance of Slave  House on Goree Island where Obama posed for a photo opportunity was most likely only used for disposing of garbage.

As reported by the Telegraph,  Professor Ralph Austen of the University of Chicago said: ‘There are literally  no historians who believe the Slave House is what they’re claiming it to be, or  that believe Goree was statistically significant in terms of the slave trade,’

Historians point out that the  Atlantic Ocean  at Goree Island is both shallow and rocky, which would  have made it difficult  for a slave ship to load its grim cargo at that point.

The role of the island in the slave trade has  long been disputed, though it has become an important symbol and emotional  reminder of the horrific events of the past.

The Telegraph reports that many scholars now  believe that people were kept at this fort, they might have been used by  residents of the island rather than for mass transportation to the  Americas."

When everything you knew to be true is really a lie...what and who are you willing to believe?

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:23 | 3729450 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

"The role of the island in the slave trade has  long been disputed, though it has become an important symbol and emotional  reminder of the horrific events of the past."


Someday in the future they'll say that about Manhattan...

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:30 | 3729465 nmewn
nmewn's picture

No shit, a fine observation ;-)

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:58 | 3729553 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

All of this reminds me of Bush standing in the rubble of the WTC.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:03 | 3729724 Manic by Proxy
Manic by Proxy's picture

Imagine.........Gore standing in the rubble of the WTC.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:25 | 3729780 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Wouldn't have happened.  The Red Team would have blamed him for the attack, so they would have had to call it off and do something else.  That's why they put windshield cowboy into office via the Supremes.  Plausible deniability.  

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 23:58 | 3729859 Manic by Proxy
Manic by Proxy's picture

OK, Blue Team

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 00:26 | 3729901 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

How is that Blue Team?  Let me break it down for a small mind.  The people who decided to blow up the WTC decided ahead of time they needed a Red Teamer in office for the sheeple.  So they made sure that Gore (who is one of the puppets, but who would have looked too obvious) was out.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 06:07 | 3730170 Manic by Proxy
Manic by Proxy's picture

Nice assertion of a position based on a theory devoid of any proof. That might be construed as the product of a small mind. And why deny your Blue Team status? It is manifest. Be proud of your lefty credentials.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 06:06 | 3730168 RSloane
RSloane's picture

So it never had any historical significance but it has emotional significance has a doorway.

Manhattan advertising agencies could not have done better themselves if they applied all of their mastermind techniques [toaster strudel gives your kids an edge in the pursuance of their academic career] by their most bristling-with-brains account specialists [today the tampon, tomorrow the world!].

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 00:07 | 3729877 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

The annual Gay Pride parade in SF would be his best venue.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:54 | 3729357 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

So ironic that the NSA, after spying on the world and plugging HAL full of stolen communications got hacked and spied upon themselves. Pants down the best spy org in the world. They should all call and congratulate control on their shoe phones. hahahahahahahaha!!

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:01 | 3729364 Cojones
Cojones's picture

Strange it may sound, this is very spooky. Germany has always been a beacon of civil privacy rights in the EU because of its history. With these revelations the last state in the EU with a shimmer of respect for individual freedom and privacy has fallen victim to the relentless oppression of the dictatorship in the US. 

Sad. Time to keep selling the Euro.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:31 | 3729470 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

they're a beacon of shit- merely uttering a few words denying the holocaust gets you 2 years in prison- some beacon of freedoms.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:47 | 3729676 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Don't know if you knew this, but they spend just as much money spying on their Skinheads as on the Muslims. And there are a lot more of the latter.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 20:56 | 3729366 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

Obummer better start hoping for change, his shit is catching up with him. 

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:00 | 3729377 NOTaREALmerican
NOTaREALmerican's picture

It ain't Obama or Bush (or Cheney or Feinstein),  it's the authority worshiping dumbass in the mirror that keeps voting for more authoritarian government every two years.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 22:57 | 3729709 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

You nailed it. Ironically, the young Germans are aware of the German masses still having 'Obrigkeit Bewusst' -- hierarchy awareness and a habit to know their place within that hierarchy.

In fact, in some places/circles this is so pervasive, that if someone decides to be non-compliant, their peers will 'put him in his place'.

What they're saying in effect, is: "If we have to follow orders and know our place, how dare you not do likewise? You think you're better than us, or something?"

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:00 | 3729378 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Silly Germans are peaved because Chairsatan is cutting off the monetary flow to Southern Europe.

   High {Bund} yields are the byproduct of "soft €".

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:02 | 3729383 blindman
blindman's picture

Tom Waits - What's he building in there (live)

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:03 | 3729385 andrewp111
andrewp111's picture

Why spy on the EU? The US expects the EU to fulfill its destiny of becoming a true 4th Reich one day, because that was the express purpose of creating the EU in the first place. The Eurozone financial crisis is likely to be the catalyst for full Federalization of the EU. Intelligence agencies are supposed to know about political events before they happen. Duh!!

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 06:39 | 3730181 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"Why spy on the EU?" that's not how spooks think. if possible, they spy just on everything

but of course the EU/US trade talks are a "good reason"

"The US expects the EU to fulfill its destiny of becoming a true 4th Reich one day, because that was the express purpose of creating the EU in the first place" is it? the express purpose? I remember a time where there were millions of Britons that found the EU a jolly good idea - did they subscribe to your "4th Reich" idea?

the US is "fully federalized", the EU isn't. by far not. does "full federalization" (which btw I do not wish to see in the EU) make the full and only difference between good and evil?

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:03 | 3729387 Frozen
Frozen's picture

Party on

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:03 | 3729390 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Wow, Jan Fleischhauer only now noticed that the American media very studiously avoids reporting on real news at all costs, and that the New York Times is distinguishable from USA Today in that regard only in the vocabulary it uses to fill its volumes with fucking incidental human interest stories, propaganda and sports coverage.  Could have learned that from pretty much any Chomsky book 20 years ago Jan (or even just by opening the paper, I suppose) but better late than never - welcome to the red pill world.

Sun, 07/07/2013 - 21:28 | 3729460 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Not to worry, they didn't take the Red Pill.  They're just pretending they did to drive a stake in the ground and insist they are still relevant.  They'll be right back in line at the feeding trough shortly.

The great era of consolidated, centralized control is in it's ascendancy.  Nobody in any position of power has any serious plans to try to derail what is happening.  They agree with it.  They love it.  They want more of it so someday they can be at the controls of it.

Mon, 07/08/2013 - 04:31 | 3730110 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Now if only Chomsky were not a state apologist and viper in disguise.

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