27 Facts That Prove That The Family In America Is In The Worst Shape Ever

Tyler Durden's picture

Submitted by Michael Snyder of The Economic Collapse blog,

The family is one of the fundamental building blocks of society.  If you do not have strong families, you are not going to have a strong society.  Unfortunately, the state of the family in America continues to deteriorate.  The marriage rate has fallen to an all-time low, we lead the world in divorce, and about a third of all children live in a home without a father. 

Our young people have been taught that getting married and having a family is not a priority, and many of those that would like to get married and have children are not able to get the kinds of jobs that they need to support a familyThe statistics that you are about to see should absolutely shock you. 

American families have never been this weak, and this is an incredibly troubling sign for the future of our nation.  What will future generations of Americans be like if they do not have stable homes to grow up in?  Will they be even more messed up than we are right now?  That is a frightening thought.  

The following are 27 facts that prove that the family in America is in the worst shape ever...

#1 The marriage rate in the United States has fallen to an all-time low.  Right now it is sitting at a yearly rate of 6.8 marriages per 1000 people.

#2 Today, an all-time low 44.2 percent of Americans in the 25 to 34 year old age bracket are married.

#3 According to the Pew Research Center, only 51 percent of all adults in the United States are currently married.  Back in 1960, 72 percent of all adults in the United States were married.

#4 Back in 1950, 78 percent of all households in the United States contained a married couple.  Today, that number has declined to 48 percent.

#5 100 years ago, 4.52 were living in the average U.S. household, but now the average U.S. household only consists of 2.59 people.

#6 The United States has the highest percentage of one person households on the entire planet.

#7 In the United States today, more than half of all couples "move in together" before they get married.

#8 The divorce rate for couples that live together first is significantly higher than for those that do not.

#9 For women under the age of 30 in the United States, more than half of all babies are being born out of wedlock.

#10 In 1970, the average woman had her first child when she was 21.4 years old.  Now the average woman has her first child when she is 25.6 years old.

#11 According to the Centers for Disease Control, there were 69.3 births per 1,000 women in the 15 to 44 year old age bracket in 2007. Now the rate has fallen to 63.2 births per 1,000 women.

#12 The birth rate for American women in the 20 to 24 year old age bracket has fallen to 85.3 births per 1,000 women.  That is a new all-time record low.

#13 The United States has the highest divorce rate in the entire world.

#14 At this point, approximately one out of every three children in the United States lives in a home without a father.

#15 Without a father around, many single mothers in this country are really struggling to survive.  Sadly, approximately 42 percent of all single mothers in the United States are on food stamps.

#16 It is being projected that approximately 50 percent of all U.S. children will be on food stamps at some point before they reach the age of 18.

#17 Today, more than a million public school students in the United States are homeless.  This is the first time that has ever happened in our history.

#18 The United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the entire world.  In fact, the United States has a teen pregnancy rate that is more than twice as high as Canada, more than three times as high as France and more than seven times as high as Japan.

#19 In the United States today, approximately 47 percent of all high school students have had sex.

#20 Approximately one out of every four teen girls in the United States has at least one sexually transmitted disease.

#21 According to one survey, 24 percent of all U.S. teens that have at least one sexually transmitted disease say that they still have unprotected sex.

#22 Instead of being raised by parents, an increasing number of children in America are being raised by movies, television and video games.  For example, the average young American will spend 10,000 hours playing video games before the age of 21.

#23 Americans are tied with the British for the highest average number of hours spent watching television each week.

#24 There are more than 3 million reports of child abuse in the United States every single year.

#25 The United States actually has the highest child abuse death rate in the developed world.

#26 Approximately 20 percent of all child sexual abuse victims in the United States are under the age of 8.

#27 It is estimated that one out of every four girls will be sexually abused before they become adults.

Unfortunately, this is a problem that is not going to be fixed overnight.  Getting the "right politicians" into office will not solve our problems and neither will spending a bunch of money.

The change that we need is a change of the heart.  We need to change how we treat one another and we need to get our priorities straight.

Our families are really messed up, and this is hurting our kids the most.  There is no way that this country is going to have any hope for a bright future unless our families start getting stronger.

Or could it be possible that I am overreacting?

What do you think?

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fonzannoon's picture

This article misses the most up and coming family type. The household where the husband and wife absolutely hate each other and would have been divorced 5 years before but can't afford two households. So they stay under the same roof and live in their own personal hell and their children grow up in said house.

 

Rincewind's picture

Re: #19 In the United States today, approximately 47 percent of all high school students have had sex

 

That is truly an astounding and sad figure. I feel sorry for those 53% having been left out.

Having sex should naturally follow puperty.

 

I agree with many points above and I think the key is to procreate conciously, but having sex is not the issue.

markmotive's picture

#11 and #12: Declining birth rates

Declining birth rates are bad? Did you know the world has a massive population bomb that is set to explode?

http://www.planbeconomics.com/2013/07/july-11-is-world-population-day-sh...

sun tzu's picture

Did you know the population is exploding in third world countries, not first world countries? A collapsing population is disastrous to any country.

stacking12321's picture

that's a simplistic generalization.

lowering birth rate to equal that of the death rate is called "balance".

unlimited growth has a word too, it's called "cancer".

jbvtme's picture

who compiles these statistics and why?

lactam's picture

Bernanke

(Someone had to say it)

Hobbleknee's picture

Declining birthrates are only a problem if you have a government ponzi to maintain.

sun tzu's picture

I'm sure all those kids having sex won't get diseases or have children.

RockyRacoon's picture

Enough goofy, repetitive lists already.

Nero Tulip's picture

Too much of this on ZH lately.

25 reasons why this sucks, 35 reasons why that sucks, 12 reasons why everything sucks... 

Unlike other blogs, at least we get citations about why everything sux.

kaiserhoff's picture

Formula driven, women's magazine stuff has whiskers.

Easy to write, but no brainworking.

Popo's picture

Blame the Women's Movement for much of the collapse in American family life.

Watch "Fempocalypse" by Girl Writes What on YouTube.

Cathartes Aura's picture

mmmkay.

#26 Approximately 20 percent of all child sexual abuse victims in the United States are under the age of 8.

#27 It is estimated that one out of every four girls will be sexually abused before they become adults.

damn feminists.

nmewn's picture

Surely you're not saying a feminist cannot be a child predator.

All we need is a few more to be made priests/pastors/preachers to be publicly assured of their moral rectitude and ethical non-bias ;-)

Cathartes Aura's picture

yeah, whatever - stats or gtfo.

and we all know, or should, that the absolute majority of sexual predators are men.

but you go make contrary mary points, as is your wont.

blame it on anyone else but the truth dudes.

gratuitous ZH thread for the misogynists, how rare.

nmewn's picture

How many "feminists" are there...got any stats?

And what defines a feminist these days anyways, anti-men? ;-)

 

Cathartes Aura's picture

ayup.

you never change.

enjoy your one-sided "discussion"

nmewn's picture

Change has become a bad word these days for good reason...lol.

Its a fair question, what do you think defines a feminist these days? You used the word (feminist) as some sort of paragon of virtue juxtaposed to a slander of men and women apparently (who are not "feminists")...at least thats the way I took it.

It just piqued my curiosity as to what you define as a feminist.

Flakmeister's picture

CA,

you too have noticed that he is nothing but a vile snake....

nmewn's picture

Vile snake?...lol.

One thing I'm not, is a misandrist to gain favor with Cat or a Chicken Little running around saying the sky is falling to gain favor with you.

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

I disagree with the assessment. Just having a contrary view shouldn't result in a snake brand. Wow, you must have really stirred up something interesting. I believe there must be lots of spittle on computer screens. And I'm getting the impression you do get enjoyment from it! ;-)

Miffed;-)

Flakmeister's picture

Its nothing to do with having a different opinion...Akak (among many others here) and I have differences of opinion on numerous topics and you will not hear me call him snake...

His reputation for being a obfuscating liar who has no interest in truth or facts unless it serves his purpose is well earned and I have washed my hands clean of his filth...

PS Ask him about the significance of the Cornerstone Speech sometime...

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Flak, I have never experienced this from Nmewn personally. I feel comfortable challenging him on any subject and expecting an honest response. Not that it will always be pleasant but that's what we've signed up for here is it not? Perhaps you can point me toward an example of this?

Miffed;-)

Flakmeister's picture

By all means, enjoy his company if you like, I prefer not to wrestle with pigs...

There is a reasonable example of his slimey methods in this thread if you go looking....

Edit: Another way of putting it is that he has never demonstrated good faith in any of his exchanges with me...

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Interesting. When I defended akak against a comment by fuu he provided me an example to validate his point. I didn't ask you do do this because of laziness. I simply don't know where to look. Your reticence is telling. Ok, I will do my own research but I would have thought with such a pile of absolute animosity you seem to have for Nmewn you would have a slew of examples ready at hand.

Miffed;-)

nmewn's picture

Flak and I go back a long way H...errr, Miffed ;-)

It was about a week long exchange between he & I arguing markets, individual freedom, culture, nation states and what not.

As you no doubt know by now, I loathe socialists, while I actually hate socialist-statists and/or progressives, which is what they prefer to call themselves these days to avoid discussing the finer points of Marxian social engineering via the state.

And thats what Flak is (outside of his appreciation of gold).

So I guess what I'm saying is, the feeling is completely mutual between he and I. Him knowing I wouldn't piss on the man if he were writhing in agony on fire on the ground in front of me, while at the same time I would rather be reduced to ash than ask charity of him if the roles were reversed...lol.

We understand each other perfectly.

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Nmewn,
I am laughing my head off now!! Please go back to the last thread of our long exchange and read my last comment. I didn't think you would ever read it and was never going to refer you to it but after this you may find it funny.

Miffed;-)

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

CA,
It's indeniable that men make up the majority of these cases but what do we do with this stat? String up all men. Forced castration at birth? Men commit the majority of murders too. Well there's two strikes. It's interesting to note that though women commit fewer murders, the vast majority these murders are committed against close associations such as children ( ex. Susan Smith) and spouses whereas men tend to murder without familial connection. Women are abusive too CA. I' ve seen a lot personally. It's just very de rigueur to discuss today.

Miffed;-)

Cathartes Aura's picture

I wonder why you insist on using absolute extremes instead of just acknowledging the truths?

what do "we do"?  we recognise the truths, and individually deal with it.  I know I have.

I have many, many friends in relationships, with children, some young.  the fathers are attentive, caring males, and some have working partners while they help raise the children.  I respect that, their involvement, the same way I respect the reverse in other relationships.  some of my male friends are single and hang with the family'd ones because they enjoy the company, of the children as well.

why do you think you need to tell me that "women are abusive too"?  do you think I'm insane, that I don't know anything about the culture we live in, or even other cultures?  I've been posting here for three years, and I believe my posts are quite clear as to what I believe about how cultures are constructed for the benefit of those who run the show - amrkn culture post WW2 was intentionally constructed to create "nuclear families" of parallel competing consumers, so as to grow the fucking debt.  working as intended, eh?

*shakes head*   at this point, who cares, really.   go watch something like Century of Self, see how carefully planned the amrkn dream has been all along, for decades longer than some 70's bra-burner crap Rush Limbaugh likes to bellow about.  there's a whole couple centuries of research some of you might like to sample.

or not.  /shrug

Flakmeister's picture

The fact that you got 5 greenies for this piece of nonsense only goes to show conspiracy ideation runs rampant among the misogynists here.... 

Cathartes Aura's picture

Lore also changed his "reply" (which isn't at all) from personal opinions about me, to his final quote.

Lore knows how to play the thread.  lol

dude, feminism existed before Aaron Russo was born.  but you stay in your box o' bitter, it obviously works for you and the other similars here.

Flakmeister's picture

Not sure what your beef is with me....

I was merely pointing the vacuous nature of the Russo quote...

Cathartes Aura's picture

nah, sorry, the Aaron Russo line was for Lore.

we're in agreement about the newman though, he loves to circular argue, I could care less.

sorry 'bout the confusion Flak.

 

Lore's picture

I changed my note in the hope that it would bring forward something more constructive. Pity that it failed.

Cathartes Aura's picture

"Feminism" predates Aaron Russo's birth by a couple of centuries.

if you want to look into how the meme was co-opted by certain peoples in order to bring more taxables into the pot, which is a part of a truth, then openly begin the discussion sometime.  I have in the past.

but this blaming of women in the workforce for all the ills in society today, when in fact women earning a wage is what keeps them off the gov't tit, is nonsense.  no one is taking "mens jobs" - it's called competition, and many here champion it, unless it involves "women, illegals" and other finger pointing.  those who hire always prefer to do so at reduced wages, if they can get away with it, and with women, they obviously can, and do.  which simply means, that's what the job is worth to those who pay for it.

and marriage is an outdated institution ALSO created by "cultures" to promote more tax slaves, and consumption.  if people truly want to be married and pro-create, they can.  but that's not the subject of angst in these repetitious threads, it's hatred, pure, naked, irrational hate, with a splash of bitters.

you are of course entitled to believe I'm what you named me as before editing, but I know my subject here, that's all.  the world is shifting, and of course, those who believe their cultural privileges were inherent, and never to be challenged, need to realise. . . all things change over time.  no more special.

Lore's picture

Re: "this blaming of women in the workforce, etc."

I don't share that simplistic position, fwiw.  I do however believe that the dignity of men AND women is suffering in the present culture of decline.  As people lose hope for better prospects, they stop taking care of themselves. Slovenly appearance and bad role modeling is symptomatic.  Declining quality and affordability of clothing, cosmetics and related consumer goods makes it impossible to achieve traditional acculturated standards for "respectability" and reduces creative self-expression to nonconformity, banality and shock value.  Hollywood / popular culture sees the nihilistic trend and reinforces it.  Various historical writers observe a causal relationship between debasement of currency and erosion of social values. On that note, it is interesting to note how hard people tried to dress up in the Depression.  Even the drunk on the street wore a suit.  People clung to their dignity.  Do you see that much nowadays, on Main Street?  I don't.

The Russo excerpt was merely intended to be provocative.  And my initial comment was hasty, so I apologize for that.  We live and learn.  Thanks for the followup.

Cathartes Aura's picture

and thank you for helping turn around the exchange, it's appreciated.

more so because I agree with you on some of your observations, that culture is unraveling - but I see this as a necessary prelude to reclaiming the dignity of the individual APART from the fake culture sold to us.

As people lose hope for better prospects, they stop taking care of themselves. Slovenly appearance and bad role modeling is symptomatic.  Declining quality and affordability of clothing, cosmetics and related consumer goods makes it impossible to achieve traditional acculturated standards for "respectability" and reduces creative self-expression to nonconformity, banality and shock value.

I love this, what you've noted.  consider that as people fall out of the Matrix, they stop attempting to look like they've been told is the norm to aspire to.  consider that the carefully constructed "norm" is a Madison Avenue sales gimmick, and when people can't "afford" the chemical crap they've been told they need to keep up appearances, they learn how to take care of themselves sans "product" - and sure, some will act rebelliously, and use their bodies for *shock value* as a sort of "fuck you" to the culture they believe has abandoned them. . . but some, eventually, will see their bodies as their own, and learn to care for them in ways apart from the sold images, some will fashion their own clothing that doesn't conform to catalogs & high street norms, some will become their own persons, and may not look like everyone else (thankfully!!).

further downthread is a great example - a rant on how "gross" the unshaven woman is - when in fact, the whole meme is used to pre-occupy women with their appearance, and appeal, to men, to men that are sold that image as "desirable female" - when in fact, shaving the woman's body, down to her pubic hair, merely promotes looking like an unmature childlike body - the ideal of skinny, hairless - that's a CHILD, not a woman.  there's a REASON for that "marketing" that I'm sure I don't need to go on about. . .

so women, men, everyone is getting an opportunity to give two fingers to the conned-sumer culture they've been raised in, they get a chance to re-consider who they are, at the core, before culture molded their minds. . . before they were sold "what a woman/man IS" and what the culture requires from them - earn & consume, get taxed & die.  they get to be more creative, in all aspects of their being.  in a sense, they get to go from farm'd animals, back to the wild.

and not all of 'em will respond well.  some never do, that's how evolution works, hmm?  but going forward, it's important to think outside the box'd, in every way possible.  people will re-cognise simliars by their appearances, same as they do now, but it will be a more radical recognition, it will have more truth to it.  I've been part of what might be called "DIY punk culture" (and that's nothing like the way it's packaged & sold) since my very early 20's - decades now - and that evolved from a throwing off of ALL culture sales pitches, the main ethos being "if you want something, DO IT YOURSELF - be it music, art, clothing, "job" - create your own personal niche, and don't look to consume something sold to you.  of course, as you said, it was co-opted, repackaged for SALE, but that's another thing, not the original - and the original I still see everywhere I travel, pockets of REAL exists everywhere, but co-opted people believe it's "gross" or "weird" or whatever. . . *shrug*  the culture police are always with us, enforcing the artificial Matrix.

I believe one's dignity can be preserved in many different forms.  once it's reclaimed and authentic.

peace brother.

Ghordius's picture

Cathartes, I think you are going off a tangent with this "predator" thing. btw I'm starting to associate female posters with this "predators" meme

Popo cited "Girl writes what?", here is the transcript

did you read it? it's about the economics of marriage, about deals between consenting adults. yes, politically incorrect. no, it's quite sound in it's historical perspective

the "predators" you cite exist, yes. but imho it's a bit like saying that trade should not exist as long as there is some crime

-----

meanwhile you are right about the "nuclear family" being the perfect target for financialization. is this Century of Self somewhere available in reading form?

-----

edit: perhaps I'm wrong. actually, if I think about it, a mostly non-family society might be an even better target for financialization. then a caring father might give advices like: "don't get into debt", or even pay for his children's education, and so sparing them their start in adult life with great debt burdens

Cathartes Aura's picture

don't know why you've put "predator" in quotes since I didn't use the word, and wouldn't.

do a search on the history of marriage if you're really interested.  traditionally it has been more like a business arrangement between families, to keep the wealth intact and growing.  rather "corporate" really, with contracts and agreements - mainly, the man gets a household manager, and heirs, while the woman, who wasn't able to exist as a full human being in Western cultures, got "provided for" after a fashion.  women were traditionally denied higher education, control over their own finances, freedom to come and go as they pleased without interference / harassment - very difficult to earn a living when wages were only for "family men" hmm?

wars take men out of the culture, and women pick up the slack - witness the "rosie the riveteer" story during WW2 where women worked heavy industry, and were dropped like a stone to make room for the returning "heroes" - encouraged to become dependents again, marry the men & breed, nurse their inner pain from the tortures of fighting the banker's wars.  consumer culture was born then, babies boomed, home ownership, with all the individual necessary junk accumulated, one for every ticky tacky house, while women were to sit at home, or go shopping.  look at the damn ads aimed at home stuff, or beauty stuff, cleaning stuff. . .stuff stuff stuff!!  consume, and inevitably, DEBT.  a win win for the script-writers.

I've written this same paragraph over and over here, no one cares really - most of the angry dudes here were raised with a sense of entitlement - they're the white het males, the jobs were supposed to be for THEM, and everyone else should get in line behind.  well, the other dudes who write the rules decided cheaper employees were more to their benefit, so the "single family wage" got diluted, and anyone could apply for it.  no more privilege!  just competition for resources.  that's the new game.

oh, and working class women have always worked, have always raised families, with or without the men who fathered them.  if men want to raise families then they need to learn what it takes to do this, including choosing a partner that has the same goals, and then communication, and even more communication.  maybe log off the chat threads occasionally. . .

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

I only spoke in extremes to balance out the extremes that are being bantered about here. An article as this comes out and people flock to it and take their reserved seat and flail out the same feces. Is there a resolution? I cannot see it. Is there a breakthrough where one moves closer to another in the two diametrically opposed lines? No. Just more and more HOPELESS schism. Is there a discussion on how we may break pattern? No. Just endless war. Does this not sound familiar? Endless virtual and physical war.

I have read your posts for years CA ( lurked here a year before joining) I know where you stand and I am not trying to fight you truly. You are intelligent and well educated. I embrace that and celebrate it . You have taught me much. However you tend to live in sutra whereas I tend to lean toward tantra. They both have validity. Can't we acknowledge this and build from it? Nmewn is merely probing your world just as I, just as you should shake ours. We will be better people for it.

Miffed;-)

Cathartes Aura's picture

if you want to speak in extremes, then aim your posts at someone else - you didn't reply to mine at all, you just implied what I never thought, or wrote here.  and of course, it fed the same old crap that gets regurgitated every time a "families are ruined by women" thread bait is put up.

by the way, I'm self-educated.  I recommend it.  I live in a dualist world, but I don't hang in most of the TeeVee, cell phone, me-duh, movies, shopping lala-nonsense because it's false and distracting.  I've no idea what you mean by putting me in some duality compared to you, sutra vs. tantra.  I just don't give a shit about the majority of things that others do - but that doesn't mean my life isn't full, and supported by other similars.  I am not bitter, angry or whatever the other tags others LOVE to point to.

Nmewn is neither probing my world nor is he interested in it.  he's a wind up merchant that admits he likes to get drunk and stir shit, and he often tries it with me re: "feminist" baiting, even though I've repeatedly written that I am not one.  YOU play with him, okay?

the main reason I come to ZH is occasionally there is some brilliance written, though it's become increasingly rare.  I also believe it's important to go into "territory" that is repulsive, in order to fully realise the ways humans present themselves.  most of the time its laughable.

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

It was you who started this CA. Counter playing the abuse of young girls and baiting others with the feminist comment. This was PURE manipulation to draw out a battle and you rose to the occasion on cue.

Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, women hold absolute key roles in family cohesiveness. It is absolutely critical to its survival no doubt about it. Families suffer immensely if they lack either parent. Whether this " family unit" is a construct or a natural union is frankly irrelevant. Single parent families headed by either a man or woman are at a great disadvantage today especially in this country. Without the help of an extended family the burden is astronomical. I can attest to this from personal experience. My daughters in their early years had a very damaged mother. They suffered. My husband made a pledge to me he would stay no matter what happened and it was not pretty. He's great love for me saw us through the dark times and saved us all. He took up the slack and i am eternally grateful. Most men would have left. In fact, I would guess 95% of the men here wouldn't have stuck it out. If he had left, I couldn't have made it on my own and probable would have been either institutionalized and/or heavily medicated.

You seem to think me a vacuous women who watches TV, shops malls and lives a simplistic life. This is not true. I see suffering EVERY single day in my job ( see my post below) and am keenly sensitive to it. Sometimes I just cry hearing the collective screams of agony that I hear around me as if the planet itself is weeping. You do not know me and you are unfair assumptions. Don't be so judgemental.

My comment sutra vs tantra merely meant I believe you place a greater value in book learning vs life experience. It was not meant to offend you because both have value in my view. I was fortunate to have a wonderful college education with fascinating professors in general education as well as in my chosen field. Now I am living more in the tantric, worldly life of human experience. Being inquisitive and a sucker for provocative exchanges I gravitate here a bit more than I can faced with my time constants. Sure there are the morons but morons populate all places in my experience. And I have found friends here too,sometimes in the most unlikely places and with individuals I NEVER thought I'd find commonality. A blog is truly a poor place to get to truly know someone and fully understand their view. Small snippets of people sewn together, hardly realistic.

I believe in the fight club meme CA when it brings clarity, appreciation of points of view, maturation or, at least an agreement to disagree. Hurling insults to one another seems pointless to me and these types of threads seem to bring out the worst. Perhaps that's the whole point and we have just joined a new Matrix, a construct of Tyler's.

Miffed;-)

Cathartes Aura's picture

you have zero knowledge of who I am, but why would you?  I don't know you either.

I have more life experience than any amount of "book learning" would ever give me, but why would you believe that?  you've made up your mind, and are currently defending your version of my reality, with more tales of your own, conveniently setting mine up in "opposition" to yours, which I'm sorry, is boring.

if I "bait" a thread, it is indeed my choice, based on past history of posts, both my own the the others who post here, some of whom I enjoy exchanges with, and many after initial sparring brings us closer to a truth than the banter that fills most threads daily.  I like that sort of interaction.  it interests me more than the head nodding & up-voting.

and if you're comfortably enjoying your exchanges, well, good for you.  we can agree that we all come here to post, and react, to different versions of our own realities.  I interact with very few here, and we can easily avoid exchanges in the future, enough said.

Miffed Microbiologist's picture

How funny, you bait and then respond with tired old historical facts defending females ad nauseum. You are right. You are only a broken record and that certainly is no interaction. You share nothing of yourself and hide only behind facts. If your point here is simply arguement then that's your business. I find THAT boring. Might as well debate on abortion. There's a few 100,000 years of useless arguements to no resolution.

I'm not into the up/ down voting thing. Seems very roman colosseum to me. I use it to indicate if I read a personal post to me and rarely otherwise. You have put me in a box in your own mind and have accused me of doing the same. Therefore we are at a impass. So be it.

Miffed;-)