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Klarman Clarity: "If The Government [Still] Can't Allow Failure Then We Are Indeed Close To Collapse"

Tyler Durden's picture


One of the most insightful comments explaining what happened last night, when Bernanke just killed all credibility that the economy may soon be able to stand up on its own two legs, comes from Seth Klarman who crushed the logic (or lack thereof) behind proclaiming any recovery in a world in which the only marginal factor preventing an all out collapse in the stock market and thus economy is, and continues, to be the Federal Reserve which has not only destroyed the market's discounting function, but with every passing day is taking over both the entire US economy (the Fed's balance sheet is now 25% of US GDP) and the US bond market (currently in possession of 30% of all 10 Year equivalents).

To wit:

If the economy is so fragile that the government cannot allow failure, then we are indeed close to collapse

And the rest of Klarman's sermon, serving as the perfect counter to the voodoo shamans operating their Keynesian religion in the Marriner Eccles building. From Seth Klarman of Baupost:

Is it possible that the average citizen understands our country's fiscal situation better than many of our politicians or prominent economists?


Most people seem to viscerally recognize that the absence of an immediate crisis does not mean we will not eventually face one. They are wary of believing promises by those who failed to predict previous crises in housing and in highly leveraged financial institutions.


They regard with skepticism those who don't accept that we have a debt problem, or insist that inflation will remain under control. (Indeed, they know inflation is not well under control, for they know how far the purchasing power of a dollar has dropped when they go to the supermarket or service station.)


They are pretty sure they are not getting reasonable value from the taxes they pay.


When an economist tells them that growing the nation's debt over the past 12 years from $6 trillion to $16 trillion is not a problem, and that doubling it again will still not be a problem, this simply does not compute. They know the trajectory we are on.


When politicians claim that this tax increase or that spending cut will generate trillions over the next decade, they are properly skeptical over whether anyone can truly know what will happen next year, let alone a decade or more from now.


They are wary of grand bargains that kick in years down the road, knowing that the failure to make hard decisions is how we got into today's mess. They remember that one of the basic principles of economics is scarcity, which is a powerful force in their own lives.


They know that a society's wealth is not unlimited, and that if the economy is so fragile that the government cannot allow failure, then we are indeed close to collapse. For if you must rescue everything, then ultimately you will be able to rescue nothing.


They also know that the only reason paper money, backed not by anything tangible but only a promise, has any value at all is because it is scarce. With all the printing, the credibility of our entire trust-based monetary system will be increasingly called into question.


And when you tell the populace that we can all enjoy a free lunch of extremely low interest rates, massive Fed purchases of mounting treasury issuance, trillions of dollars of expansion in the Fed's balance sheet, and huge deficits far into the future, they are highly skeptical not because they know precisely what will happen but because they are sure that no one else--even, or perhaps especially, the  policymakers—does either.

That is all.


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Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:09 | 3741256 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

Isn't it obvious

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:12 | 3741264 The Juggernaut
The Juggernaut's picture

But the Bernanke, his beard and the US gov't is saying everything is good!  All their numbers are looking good too!

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:19 | 3741290 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

The GOLD Manipulation Is Huge Part Of This Systemic Market Control.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:25 | 3741335 Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

It is not just the US. We are in a global clasterfuck.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:29 | 3741354 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

Yippee!  We're going to the Funny Farm!  Isn't that DC these days?

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:03 | 3741534 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

the industrial revolution (making goods in factories with slaves more efficiently) was a failure. what's next?  local tribalism or agenda 21 fema camps...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:22 | 3741607 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Sounds not dissimilar to Frederick The Great's quote 'He who defends everything defends nothig"...

but still very true...

Answer me one question, 'If Keynesianism works so well, why didn't it become the way of things since the dawn of time? Why did we ever use, or need to use gold as money?"


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:30 | 3741638 flacon
flacon's picture

"Answer me one question, 'If Keynesianism works so well, why didn't it become the way of things since the dawn of time? Why did we ever use, or need to use gold as money?""


Answer: Because we evolved from apes and now there is an enlightened class of momo-sapiens who have pH Deees from accredited Ivy League Universities and Nobel Prizes. They have been successful in stamping out poverty, hunger and war. The world is a much better place because of the vision of the annointed. 


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:02 | 3741726 Manthong
Manthong's picture

“..always with the negative wavelengths, Moriarity

Can’t you look at the bright side for a change?”..

As a very highly regarded aficionado of Tunisian youngsters once said to FDR..

 “In the long run we are all dead.”

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:16 | 3741770 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

Theres so many intelligent ppl on ZH that it would be nice if the current cabinet consisted of these guys instead of the clowns we have right now:

President of the United States

Ron Paul - nuff said

Vice President of the United States
Tyler Durden/Zerohedge

Department of the State
fonz - dont think he wont hide in his yacht when shit hits the fan

Department of the Treasury
ekg - someone who knows that the fuck is going on with the financial system (not like Timmay and Lack Jew)

Department of Defense
Bay of Pigs

Department of Justice

Department of Commerce

Department of Education
Department of Homeland Security
otto skorzeny 

White House Chief of Staff
Francis Sawyer - I think he will be fair enough to allow Kito to get a spot

United States Ambassador to the United Nations
Kito (we need to be balanced in our representation, not like before)

As for me, I, Divided States of America, will be the next Chairman of the SEC and will ban HFT trading and midget porn as my first tasks on the job.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:24 | 3741804 flacon
flacon's picture

I'll be court jester. 

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:29 | 3741820 Manthong
Manthong's picture

as a mental midget, I object to one of your propositions..

But could I get the nomination to replace one of my kinfolk on the s c o t u s ?

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:27 | 3741815 Black Swan 9
Black Swan 9's picture

What a nice fantasy. Founding Fathers redux.

Cynthia McKinney belongs in there somewhere.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:38 | 3741860 Traps
Traps's picture

DS, with all due respect with Dr Paul as Prez there would be:

No DHS, no Dept of Ed, no Commerce or Tres


But I like your line-up none-the-less

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:48 | 3741891 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Dept. of education? Dept. of homeland security? SEC? Dept. of defense? Dept. of commerce? UN?

Unless their first (and only) act was to dissolve these nightmarish institutions and fire every last employee (with great pleasure!), this accomplishes nothing.

PS: let be me the one who officially announces that the .gov is reneging on all pension obligations, eliminating social security, trashing obamadoesntcare, closing its 1000 foreign bases, scrapping the USC, and has just conducted a dawn raid on the homes and offices of all Fed governors and all Fed offices, and telling Israel and Europe to go FUCK themselves. I would savor this moment for eternity.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:16 | 3741995 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Hey! I wanna be Head of Sanitation!

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 15:20 | 3742446 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

I object!  You would allow the DoE and DHS to continue to exist?  You would keep us in the UN?  You would just keep us on the same path to distruction but at a slower pace is all.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:12 | 3741992 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

"momo-sapiens"... I laffed.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:30 | 3741646 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Keynesian Economics has never existed in the form put forth by its founder. Not that it could exist in its pure form, all applications of isms are bastard offsprings of the original thought...

Kensesian theory wasn't developed until it was for the same reason that the Ancient Greeks could not grasp and use Einsteinian Relativity...

BTW, your argument is relevant as to why minanarchist and libertarian ideologies are exercises in mental masturbation, i.e. they fly in the face of natural human behaviour.... 

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:38 | 3741674 flacon
flacon's picture

Keynes believed, foolishly, that one could spend their way out of misery by borrowing money. He forgot that borrowed money has to be repaid, PLUS INTEREST. I guess he figured that one could just borrow the money to repay it. And that is where we are today. Borrowing to repay. Fucked-up-in-the-head system. 


That's why Keynes got his GDP equation wrong.... Government spending does not equal production unless the government had a surplus of money stolen from the citizens (which was a contributing cause of the depression which necessitated the government spending in the first place) that it could use. Instead the government borrows the money and then spends it, then borrows more money to pay it off. Fucked-up-in-the-head system. 

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:20 | 3741784 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Hey go ahead and write a critique of Keynsianism, I ain;t here to defend it against your efforts. I will only comment that von Mises was even more misquided in his economic posturings...

And your explantion of the Depression is laughable at best...

PS And do you really think that Keynes did not realize borrowed money had to be paid back. Good god, you clearly have no idea what he actually wrote...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:20 | 3741795 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

The multiplier effect is really the stultifier effect.  They didn't care about that though, because it was never about making the economy function well, it was always about promoting their agenda.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:15 | 3741778 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Although called something else, underlying much of Keynes thought is infinite growth something you disagree with 

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:19 | 3741791 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Absolutely, that was probably his greatest shortcoming. In fact, Economics as a discipline has a very hard time dealing with limitations to the Growth paradigm.. Might have something to do with rocking the boat and furthering your career.. You know, Market Forces....

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:37 | 3741856 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Isn't inadequate aggregrate growth a false assumption that government can substitute for the raw elements of the economic engine? The funny thing about most of the modern economic philosophies are that, like everything, they are influenced by their current environment. These ideas have caught on and caught us with out pants down because they grew, hormonally, out of the era of cheap raw energy and the foolish idea that the planets resources would keep going, never get poisoned, and never turn hostile. Funny too, big government, just like big industry is behaving like a close cousin. Big difference though, I trust nature and natural systems a little more than the other two. Like the rise in homestead posts on this site, the answers are personal, small, but fundamental all at the same time. There is another tremednous element going on though and that's the criminal element. A part of nature that is maybe not unique to mankind but its unchecked growth is definitely a trademark of the "upright." It is tragic and disgusting to see that the very forces claiming to help protect "us" from these big problems and big players are not only protecting them but helping them grow to such an ugly state. We will not fix these problems without some sort of rules system put back into place and actually enforced. In fact, things seem so bad, that the rule system is a priority if we want to save any participation and respect for the social structure.     

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:12 | 3741993 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Good post... but I have to run, will comment later...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:19 | 3742004 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I have the runs too.  Think I got some bad broccoli.  We shall recover.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:22 | 3742007 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

@Davey - Agree with Flak, nice post. 

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 16:07 | 3742638 Col_Sanders
Col_Sanders's picture

Infinite growth isn't required in a system where people are left alone.

Billions of people, left alone to trade among themselves freely, would easily come up with ways to deal with just about anything including scarcity of certain resources.

Would mistakes be made?  Sure.  Would people die?  Probably.  Would species go extinct?  Most definitely.  However, this is the nature of life - the evoloutionary cycle.  It's been happening for billions of years and isn't going to stop - or slow down - simply because one particular species on the stage believes it can control or stop the process.

We can't.  No one can.

But fear drives us to try - and that leads us to believe all sorts of things we're told by those who want to control us.

These beliefs grow and spread and replicate like a cancer.  They create cell after cell after cell...each consuming everything around it yet producing nothing but other cancerous cells.

And we end up with things like a central bank, debt-based "money," fractional reserve banking, and a government that is so intent on protecting certain industries that it will use its power not only to advocate on their behalf, but make competition either too costly or downright criminal - and therefore the necessity which drives future invention is hidden or ignored.  And resources are consumed until they're gone.

This situation wasn't too bad when it was confined to limited areas of the globe and those who wanted to be left alone could find places that were out of reach.  However, today there are no places left to go.  The cancer has metastisized to every part of the body.

Which means it's just a matter of time at this point.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:24 | 3741803 JR
JR's picture

Keynesian economics continues to start and fail and start again because it is not judged by its failures. Instead, it is judged by its proponents, their titles and honors, etc., rather than its results.

We are finding "titles and honors" don't measure a man; we just judge the proponents of Keynesianism by their actions and motives.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:06 | 3741549 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Free lunch[ables] 4evs, bitchezzz!*

*offer valid while Ponzi intact. Restrictions may apply.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:22 | 3742011 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

The key is at the very beginning:

Is it possible that the average citizen understands our country's fiscal situation better than many of our politicians or prominent economists?

No, it's not possible.  Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that those in charge are doing this on purpose.  It's obvious when one follows the money.  The banks/corporations/government are looting the country and it won't stop until every person who can actually produce is bled dry.

Sun, 07/14/2013 - 05:56 | 3750755 AON
AON's picture

Thats right Rocky!  The inevitable conclusion must be either they are stupid and don't know what they are doing or they are corrupt and know exactly what they are doing.  I'll go with you.  They are corrupt and know exactly what they are doing.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:37 | 3741379 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

If you buy "stawks" and lose money, sue the U.S. Treasury, the Federal Reserve, and Ben Bernanke, Janet Yellen, William Dudley, Charles Evans, et al. individually.

These entities and individuals at least implicitly guaranteed that stocks will never fall. A case can be made that they do not enjoy governmental immunity, as they would under ordinary circumstances, as they've "written" de facto statutory authority as the guarantors of equity purchase profits.

p.s.  Bernanke's presser yesterday will be viewed in retrospect as the event that essentially marked the top. The short squeezey may be on today, but it's devoid of legs. Unless Bernank comes out tomorrow and announces a doubling or tripling of treasury and MBS purchases from current levels, nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah, gooooodbye.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:41 | 3741412 prains
prains's picture

This one gets printed into flames, debt and death is all UKKKA knows, sorry nice knowing y'all.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:01 | 3741513 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

By the way, Bernanke did/said literally the worst things in terms of projecting the impression - even if through bumbling ambiguity - of continuing dovishness & accomodative monetary policy (even though he really did not remotely come close to stating the Fed was prepared to increase asset purchases, but I digress) in response to questions about the "taper tantrum."

Any Great(er) Rotation from bonds to stocks would merely exert multitiudes more upward pressure on interest rates, creating a literal crisis for the Fed, which really would have to literally expand its balance sheet at a far greater pace than they're now doing, in order to absorb many more orphaned, under-yielding treasuries.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:06 | 3741544 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

All he did yesterday was reinforce his bullshit viewpoint that tapering is not tightening. He will attempt to taper, and hope that his words can keep the bond market from becoming an avalanche that runs us all over.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:27 | 3741630 NeedleDickTheBu...
NeedleDickTheBugFucker's picture

tapering not = tightening

cutting spending (really the growth of spending) = austerity

It's the same logic or in this case illogic.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:56 | 3741725 game theory
game theory's picture

Mmm...I suspect the ambiguity is by design. The Fed certainly has very few options against its adversaries at this point. They make a feint at a taper and get the wrong result. The hurl a few insults at "feral hogs" and then try another move with hints at continued dovishness.  

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:56 | 3741491 Phat Stax
Phat Stax's picture

could be... tops often show up on good news.


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:30 | 3741648 gjp
gjp's picture

US, as custodian of the global reserve currency, and leader in 'democracy' and 'capitalism' is without doubt the epicentre of the rot though.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:29 | 3741360 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

this fucking tribesman will be the death of us all

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:53 | 3741720 viahj
viahj's picture

i plan to outlive this fucker.  you do not have to participate in their scheme but you will have to avoid the bombs.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:19 | 3741300 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

This is exactly what Rick Santelli ranted about just last month.


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:07 | 3741753 worbsid
worbsid's picture

Now that was a fine rant.  It is amazing how much good it did. 

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:27 | 3741347 HaroldWang
HaroldWang's picture

It's insanely obvious. Bernanke told the world that 3 years of QE, bond buying, etc, aren't working very well. Why the market would try to celebrate that rather than be scared shitless is beyond me.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:29 | 3741355 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Because their other option is to blow their own brains out.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:31 | 3741368 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

it would be great if they used DHS's ammo to accomplish that.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:43 | 3741431 prains
prains's picture

I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised at how many suckas are out there still waitng to be strip mined of what "assets" they still hold. As we speak they are trying to bankrupt as many miners as they can.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:00 | 3741516 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:16 | 3741782 MarlasBack
MarlasBack's picture

Yeah, like their pensions and 401k?! 

I'm starting a business manufacturing mattress safes...   investors welcome *wink*  

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:11 | 3741257 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

You're kidding me. You mean that we are close to a Melt Down and that without QE that there is no Economy??? You mean that there is no exit strategy???


I am so terribly shocked...AT THE TRUTH.


Tall Tom

I Cor13

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:24 | 3741330 ltsgt1
ltsgt1's picture

We are so closed to a melt down that Saudis is the one making things happen in Mideast and other regions. We are not leading, are directionless and are increasingly irrelevant .

A country which has no influence and relevant will not be able to hold on to the privilege of having the global reserve currency status for long.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:33 | 3741373 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

without US/Israeli help the House of Saud would be gone within a year.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:51 | 3741436 ltsgt1
ltsgt1's picture

When the Saudis have to face the fact the the US is no longer what she once was, they will negotiate with the Russian and the Chinese.

The Israelis are trying to maintain the status quo but I think their effort will be futile.

Bush was willing to fight for the dollar. Gulf War II was not about WMD, it was about petro dollar vs. petro euro. Obama wants to fight no ones except the Republicans.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:12 | 3741575 GubbermintWorker
GubbermintWorker's picture

Time to pop a few more ibuprofens.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:12 | 3741268 irie1029
irie1029's picture

Who predicted the present crisis better than Ron Paul?  I firmly believe you cannot live a lie forever.  US is doomed.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:18 | 3741296 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

The plan isn't to live the lie forever. The plan is to live it long enough that certain people can steal as much as possible before reality asserts itself.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:25 | 3741327 xtop23
xtop23's picture

Ding, ding, ding! 

I still enjoy watching Ratigan's epic meltdown on that very point from time to time.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:49 | 3741465 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Five years ago, they started bailing out TBTF companies.  They fixed nothing.  Now, they are bailing out TBTF countries.  They want to bankrupt the entire world because they hold the paper, or think they do.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:57 | 3741504 asteroids
asteroids's picture

Bingo. The FED has turned the USA into a kleptocrasy. Its stealing past, current, and future generations productivity to cover the bad bets of its member banks and to enable the insane level of spending of the US government. I have no idea how this ends, but it won't be pretty.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:13 | 3741271 pods
pods's picture

The economic equivalent of "eveyone gets a trophy!"


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:13 | 3741273 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

For such a nation full of talented, resourceful people to be held hostage by a small group of psychopaths is failure.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:16 | 3741289 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

I think it's planned failure but yes, failure nonetheless...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:46 | 3741443 prains
prains's picture

last time i checked it was the "talent" that were the psychopaths, you know the inbred "ivy" crowd

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:25 | 3741334 WarriorClass
WarriorClass's picture

These traitors just won't know when to stop, until they end up dead.


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:26 | 3741341 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

Who is John Galt?

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:35 | 3741386 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

I want to find Midas's valley and move in as Galt's neighbor...then I'm going to woo Dagny Taggart!

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:49 | 3741710 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

"Truth is treason in the empire of lies..."  however this is changing, it's becoming more expensive to stuff you fat face in front of the TV because of all the failed monetary policies and lies about the state of the economy. Could the true state of things be finally getting through to the now awaking sheep?

It's mostly our fault for letting them get away with so much. :(

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:55 | 3741926 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Your premise is flawed.

Red arrows welcome.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:13 | 3741274 FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

Sitting on a $150 Million loss in Gold, what else is he likely to say?

Talking his own book...

I think so.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:26 | 3741344 kaa1016
kaa1016's picture

Exactly. This is what drives me nuts. Some of these guys make the best arguments with their forecasts and logic and I tend to agree with the majority of what they say. With that being said, these markets have made fools of some of the smartest people for years now. Remember, the point of investing and/or trading isn't to be right, it's to make money. That's it.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:54 | 3741723 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

"the point of investing make money. That's it."

Uh, you missed something. Wall Street and all their shill accomplices want to keep you thinking that way, but it's not quite true. Let me explain:

Sure, there are professional investors & traders whose market involvement is purely for profit. That's how they make their living. But the great mass of investors--accredited investors, the working people who sock money into 401(K)s, the contributors to various pension funds, etc--they're not there to scalp a market swing or rake it in on a Big Short. They are in the markets because they're trying to maintain the value of their life savings, and maybe even have something better than an Alpo Retirement.

People used to put money in the bank and collect a couple percent on a savings account, or just stick it in the cookie jar or under the mattress. But then the Fed came along, and since 1913 the dollar kept losing purchasing power so fast that even Joe Sixpack could see that simply saving money was not going to work. The money composted away faster than he could add to his little stash. He needed yield, capital appreciation, he needed ALPHA!

The mass of people believe that you have to "invest" your money with the Smart Guys and pick up 7% or 8% every year, or else "Retirement? Fuggedaboudit."  The only reason that's necessary is that we have a central bank whose only raison d'etre is to skim 3% or 4% away from wages and savings every year, to deliver to the banking trusts behind it. Inflation/devaluation/debasement is not an unfortunate side effect of FRB monetary policy; it is its whole purpose.

The scam proceeded until the exponential function went skyward, which means collapse is imminent (hence, Imminent Crucible).  There are few, if any, true investments any more. So the point now is not to be right or to make money; what good is making FRN's if the value is converging toward the price of paper and ink? No, the point now is to understand what is happening so you have a decent shot at surviving that collapse which is certainly coming.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:54 | 3742104 Bob Sacamano
Bob Sacamano's picture

"the point now is to understand what is happening so you have a decent shot at surviving that collapse which is certainly coming."

Agreed.  And to survive, I am compelled make money however I can with the system that is in front of me.  I am ok with complaining about the system, but until it changes use it to your best advantage.    If one truly knows how the game is rigged, then making some money should be doable.   If one does not know how it is rigged, might want to be more on the sidelines.   

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:56 | 3741494 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

He ain't lost it unless he sold it. This thing is going to jump around so much because of volitility that everyone, once in a while is going to scream "see, I was right" at least once, until they aren't because it changed yet again. We are all broken clocks now...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:14 | 3741276 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

The economy has been as wobbly as a newborn deer for years now. It still hasn't learned to walk on its own, and at this point, it probably won't.

Bambi is terminally retarded.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:16 | 3741285 pods
pods's picture

I call dibs on the butterflied loins!


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:16 | 3741286 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

Bambi = tender venison

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:17 | 3741293 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Benbi = 'Tender' villian

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:46 | 3741703 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Benbi, the cloven hooved cunt who's meat is rotten on the bone.  No thanks!

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:22 | 3741322 Cosmicserpent
Cosmicserpent's picture

Bambi! It's whats for dinner.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:47 | 3741450 prains
prains's picture

Maybe for the 1%, for the rest of us it will be the family dog for dinner

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:10 | 3741566 Agent P
Agent P's picture

Marv Newland was ahead of his time...


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:23 | 3741620 DosZap
DosZap's picture

The economy has been as wobbly as a newborn deer for years now. It still hasn't learned to walk on its own, and at this point, it probably won't.

Bambi is terminally retarded.


The FEAR of the unknown factor is why, no one is willing to STEP out because of Big O's policies that no one has a clue what it will do to their balance sheets.

Who in their right mind would hire people under those circumstances= Not many, and then only on a must needs basis.O's "LackoCare" is KILLING full time jobs, and as long as it remains in place there can be NO turnaround,period.Which he knows full well.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:50 | 3741902 JR
JR's picture

Headlines are showing positive trends in the tech industries but there’s more to the story when you look at the realities. Two companies I’ve consulted with for several years in Silicon Valley, for example, for the first time are laying off engineers and these developments are generally not reported. My associate says he is facing similar results with a number of companies now.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:03 | 3741963 Spanky
Spanky's picture


Thanks for the info...

Two companies..., for the first time are laying off engineers and these developments are generally not reported. -- JR

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:14 | 3741278 doomandbloom
doomandbloom's picture

Collapse? We must buy then..!

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:14 | 3741280 astoriajoe
astoriajoe's picture

Wait, has anyone asked what Steve Liesman has to say about this?

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:15 | 3741283 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

His mouth is full of Bernanke.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:34 | 3741383 Agent P
Agent P's picture

Thanks for the image. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go throw up and wait at least a week for my next erection.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:02 | 3741960 akak
akak's picture

And you can be damn sure that he doesn't spit.


PS: I wonder if the white stuff is kosher?

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:17 | 3741292 FlipFlop
FlipFlop's picture

Would a collapse happen? It is really hard to see that all individual activity would stop, or how collapse would be defined?

It is absolutely scary that so much of economic activity depends on government which then depends on central bank creating what I call fictious savings.

Real economy would allocate savings to investment but money out of nothing converted into "real" economic activity through government spending. It is not only the US but almost all countries

Where is inflation? Or os it just a matter of acceptable definition? Inflation statistics may lie only so long? Inflation is treated as real economy issue as overheating, but what if it finally is a monetray phenomenon?

I have claimed since 2004 that we live in a world of inflation and deflation coexisting. Deflation as a real phenomenon and inflation as a monetary one.

Collapse has been predicted for so long that it becomes almost as boring an issues as Greek debt crisis.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:22 | 3741308 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

It will look like worthless paper money and empty shelves.  The only hope we have is for the government to accumulated 8000 tons of physical gold between here and $10k so they can save the currency after the debt default.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:22 | 3741320 Cursive
Cursive's picture


Yeah, I think even Seth Klarman said something like he expected a correction and then bonds would bounce back.  He wrote like there would be mayhem from 10:10 AM to 10:29 AM, followed by a return to normal.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:30 | 3741362 Cosmicserpent
Cosmicserpent's picture

The collapse is happening now. It is just in slow motion.  It is a slowly sinking Titanic that hit an iceberg 5 years ago. The rising water has already drowned the poor, the working class, and the lower middle class. The upper middle class can see the water below them. However, the screaming has stopped, as those lower classes are drowned. Ben Bukkake is on the bridge along with the rest of the ultra rich and everything looks fine-- because that's where the few lifeboats are.

The collapse is only perceived when you, you personally, no longer have a job, income, food or shelter.  The revolt comes when the upper middle classes decide to not go quitely into the night and drink the waters of destruction. Watch Egypt. Watch Greece. That is our future.

The collapse is ongoing. The revolt is not yet here.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:44 | 3741434 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Tend to agree. But like the ship that is taking on water, there reaches an inflection point at which the process accelerates dramatically, and it sure feels like we are nearing that point.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:51 | 3741476 FlipFlop
FlipFlop's picture

Exactly, and that's why it is so scary. We are all living on Titanic, and there is very little we can do to help ourselves. Life in a yellow submarine is definitely over?

The unreported inflation through erosion of purchasing power has first pushed the middle class into debt while the upper class has barely noticed a thing. Once deflationary drag from debt overhang becomes a reality, it cannot be sorted by government spending of fictious money.

Absence of inflation is very scary as it tells about the strength of underlying deflation, deflation being sinking purchasing power.

It seems ominously that tinhat gang has been proven right time after time against the still overwhelming normality bias.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:07 | 3741980 JR
JR's picture

The primary reason there’s little screaming from the lower decks on the Titanic is that we now live in a social welfare state. The Senate Budget Committee's has released a report showing that means-tested welfare households living below the poverty line receive welfare payments the equivalent of $168 per day in benefits in the form of food stamps, housing, childcare, healthcare and more. That’s $62,400 tax free per year.

In the 1930s depression soup lines and corner apple sellers and land foreclosures were stark revelations of a sinking economy. But today’s economic crisis has featured massive wealth transfers from taxes and inflation from the middle class to the lower classes to keep the latter buying retail and away from the front pages of a liberal media that normally would reveal the impacts of a recession.

And all the while, the producing middle class is taking the hit, tightening its belt and losing its assets and jobs to offshoring and an influx of low-pay Third World am-nesters.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:57 | 3741500 arby63
arby63's picture

We are already in a slow and spiraling collapse. Life has changed drastically since 2007. The fascists/communists/socialists are driving the train right to the very end.

Collapse may be defined in a lot of ways but I can easily envision a few that may easily come true overnight:

- no food in the grocery store

- no electricity

- no affordable gas

- bare shelves at stores selling ammunition, firearms, etc. ( oh wait....)

- municipal bankruptcies interrupting services such as water, fire, police, etc. ( oh wait...)

- independent farmers going bankrupt

- massive crop failures due to weakened gmo hybrid seeds

- societal chaos and uncertainty ( oh wait....)

There may not be a culminating event but there certainly may be as well. It's impossible to predict. I am confident that we are already well on our way. Too many traditional institutions that supported the American ethos have already died.

There isn't a whole lot holding this country together right now. Fragmentation leads to chaos.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:13 | 3741581 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Then there's this other dusty old book, written by some dago.  Nicki M.  Says something like: "With chaos comes great opportunity".

Be ready to move when the opportunity appears.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:00 | 3741739 Spanky
Spanky's picture


I agree...

Be ready to move when the opportunity appears. -- LFMayor

But what "move"? Do we have a plan? A strategy? Without a plan, "moving" in a thousand different directions at once will merely be chaos... and an opportunity lost. One does not play chess without a plan and strategy for its implementation. Nicki M. understood that as well.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:19 | 3741301 Opinionated Ass
Opinionated Ass's picture

collapse in the stock market and thus economy


Wrong. The collapse of the stock market is exactly what will save the economy. A collapse has been desperately needed since the dotcom bubble. The Fed just wouldn't allow it...until the last frayed thread gives out.  

Bring on the collapse. Bring back real free markets. Or else we're doomed.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:29 | 3741361 yogibear
yogibear's picture

The Fed still won't allow the stock market to go down. It's closely controlling it now.

Notice as soon as it drops a bit their out jawboning and making appearences.

They have to keep the game going.


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:46 | 3741445 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

"Bring on the collapse. Bring back real free markets. Or else we're doomed."

Didn't get the memo? We are already doomed...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:19 | 3741303 greatbeard
greatbeard's picture

Sometimes, beings as I'm prone to self doubt, I wonder if I didn't overreact by bailing out of the system and retreating to my hobby farm.  Other times, which is most of the time, especially when I read atricles like this, I feel smug in the knowledge that I made the right move.  Maybe I'm a bit early, and maybe they can kick the can for a long, long time, but when you are just a worm in the carcas of society, being early is much more desirebale than being late. 

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:15 | 3741409 whirling tword ...
whirling tword freedom's picture

I feel the same way.   I too left the big house in town and live out of city limits and raise animals and have a large garden ( and PMs )

Better a year too soon than one minute late.

Meh, I've always wanted this anyway and, I couldn't be happier.  Needed to get my kids out of the city anyway.  They need to learn that animals aren't just to love and sometimes you actually eat them....  and sometimes, you actually have to work to eat.... and there is more to life than video games.

I believe that sometimes gathering branches all day from the pasture teaches a kid a LOT more than playing black ops on the PS3.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:38 | 3741657 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

that's funny GB and WT and especially since the CDs (not the ones in the B) wrote that they were free, I've had the opposite fear. Sure I study the stuff you're doing and grow things in my yard and a common area I errr stole but every day and every article and every lie tells me I'm too slow. I have venus envy. Your planets and plants are lining up faster than mine. It's good to hear from folks who took the leap, the good leap that is. Keep us updated. And thanks.  

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:56 | 3741718 whirling tword ...
whirling tword freedom's picture

Very kind words, Sir!

Like anything else, it's mostly on the job experience.  You always screw up your first garden... screw up your first litters of rabbits and kill off some chickens before you're getting a couple of dozen eggs a day.   The stuff in the pasture is mostly good on it's own but, I haven't birthed calves and don't have a bull.... just immunize them and watch them chew cud.

It's a lot more work than mowing the grass once every 10 days in town but, It's a good kind of busy.  I do sleep better at night but, the thought of living out here without powering all my motors frankly terrorizes me!  No chainsaw, tractor, auger, mower, box blade, plow,  fertilizer spreader or fertilizer to put into it.

Let's hope we do get our reset and it comes and goes quickly.  I'd still be here and not leaving.  I like it here.  There's a lot more freedom when you can shoot off the back deck and live away from homeowner associations.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:56 | 3741904 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Yeah, I'll miss those C&Rs more than anything else. I find it's an even deeper thing - that evil global crap can make a boy a bit depressed and feeling a bit incompetent. To get your hands in the dirt, on the animal, around the plant and down for the bed at night is truly satisfying and uplifting. To see something concrete that you actually produced, that is actually healthy and honest and colorful and tasty brings a strange cosmic joy that must be some kind of plug in to a simple high we've felt for a million years but ran so far away from in just a hundred  

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:47 | 3741449 medium giraffe
medium giraffe's picture

You shouldn't doubt your wisdom in making a choice to live a more honest, independent and harmonious existence, regardless of the spectre of collapse.  I will be joining your ranks as soon as I am able. :) Sadly, we'll all have front row seats to the human tragedy so smugness is perhaps unwarranted. 

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:10 | 3741570 whirling tword ...
whirling tword freedom's picture

Yeah, If the balloon does go up, life will not be easy on the farm without gas, diesel and electricity.

Even keeping coyotes out of the chicken pen becomes hard without an electric fence.... then getting water to the garden etc. etc. etc.

May be better off on a small farm but, it won't be a picnic if things come completely apart.

I'm not counting on a complete collapse... I think most here agree that there will be a reset, no doubt.  I think that too.  I don't know how bad it will be or for how long.

The farm thing to me was to get back to a simpler lifestyle with the kids.  I still have a computer job and am able to work from home almost 100% now so, there isn't any reason that I can't do this and, I did grow up in the country so, this isn't foreign to me.

I also have hedged pretty well if things actually do come completely apart, IMHO.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:13 | 3741774 medium giraffe
medium giraffe's picture


I never get tired of posting links to this - I reckon I could build one from scrap components and rocks or poured concrete on a smaller scale.  If I can get a spit of land with a water course then this would certainly be a worthwhile lifehack project.


WT - teaching your kids to be self sufficient adults in a world of hopelessly dependent underdeveloped childmen would perhaps be the greatest gift you can give them and society.  That, and Aristotelian anti-bullshit combat rhetoric. :)

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:28 | 3741817 whirling tword ...
whirling tword freedom's picture

Wish I did have moving water out here.

I do have a large creek that catches run off... it mostly stays full unless it's August and, it feeds my pond so that stays full pretty much year round.

Sadly, I'm motor bound at the moment.  No solar but, I have generators.  I have to to run power tools and welders on the property.   Let's hope we never run out of gas/diesel!!!  LOL

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:19 | 3741793 whirling tword ...
whirling tword freedom's picture

Yeah, I have a tractor supply about 15mi from here.

I ended up getting a 25mi fence charger.  The smaller chargers were really not close enough to zap through that coyote fur affectively.  I think I put out a 5mi charger and, two or three coyotes came through and dug under the fence.

I got a severe case of the red ass and bought a 25mi charger and said, "try it again, mf'er".... never had another coyote problem.  I may look into a solar charger but, they're a LOT more expensive and I do have 120v at the coop right now at least.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 19:47 | 3743341 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

it was probably your new accent, the way you said mf'er. One of them heard it and spread the word. He's a redneck now. Save your own

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:07 | 3741756 Spanky
Spanky's picture



Even keeping coyotes out of the chicken pen becomes hard without an electric fence... -- whirling tword

Outside dogs. At least two of them. Try to pick a breed that sticks close to home and has other useful attributes...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:30 | 3741830 whirling tword ...
whirling tword freedom's picture

Great Pyrs seem to be the option out here for a lot of folks but, I have donkeys in the pasture that do the same thing.  My problem is that donkeys will kill dogs and my coop isn't in the pasture.   Uuuugh!   The donkeys do keep the coyotes out of the pasture though.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:38 | 3742046 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

I only have female dogs. Spay them and they stay home.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:18 | 3741788 greatbeard
greatbeard's picture

>> I'm not counting on a complete collapse.

I don't exect that either.  And if it were to happen, I figure I'm dead meat anyway.  One old fuck with a severly disabled wife = easy pickins.  I see a slow, steady, grinding decline of the middle class.  I was fully entrenched in the "system".  I had a business, employees, multiple lines of insurance, multiple pieces of real estate, insurance man on my ass, tax man on my ass, assorted users and moochers who are attracted the producers, and my own long list of personal problems.  When my own universe became severly under stress due tot he financial situation in '08 I had a huge decision to be made.  Work even harder to keep everyone, with the exception of myself, happier, or make a monumental, and uncharastic, change in my life and priorities.  I chose the one I feared the most and have been richly rewarded.  Oddly enough, my wife, who came from a marrage with many times more income an assets than we had, and now we live on a fraction of the assets and income we used to, says she's never been happier.  That is an unexpected success as she has always been a material girl.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:47 | 3742062 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

You have a good woman and so do I. I married a mountain woman and she likes it the way it was in the old days. If you find a partner that's on the same page as you everything is wonderful.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:08 | 3741758 greatbeard
greatbeard's picture

>> so smugness is perhaps unwarranted.

It's not smugness towards my fellow man, but towards a system that is patently unfair.  If I have a weakness it's my compassion for all living things, including humans. 

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:20 | 3741311 eaglerock
eaglerock's picture

The plan is not to prevent a collapse, it is to delay it until it becomes someone else's problem.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:32 | 3741371 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

True.  Remember WAY back in late 2008/early 2009 the Fed and Treasury used to say OUTRIGHT that these were temporary and extrordinary policies designed only to prevent collapse until financial situations had stabilized?  They didn't even try to deny it.  They certainly didn't bill it as an ongoing policy.

Yet once again, a temporary government program has become permanent.  And that's fine, until you run into the NEXT crisis where they will need to come up with 'extrordiary-er' policies because the old-extrordinary policy has just become your average Tuesday.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:32 | 3741655 Rainman
Rainman's picture

+ 17 trillion

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 20:07 | 3747011 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Pretty sure the plan is to expand the collapse event horizon for a maximum acquisition of assets and typically the most number of harmed people.

And you thought those silly nerdy Ferengi rules of acquisition were from a script.

They were copied from how the banksters operate.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:21 | 3741314 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Most people recognize our own government and financial institutions are acting much like their rebellious teenager (who is still living at home, despite having all the answers and excuses in the world).

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:21 | 3741316 semperfi
semperfi's picture

There will be no "collapse", just more of the slow demise. The script is rolling right along, and ends with govt taking over everything. The communists/socialists/fascists/marxists are winning, and its past the point of being able to reverse course. USA will suffer for decades like Russia/USSR did before it finally figured out communism sucked and revolted.


Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:29 | 3741356 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Son, it it a little more complicated than simply throwing labels around...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:34 | 3741377 semperfi
semperfi's picture

Edumacate me please, dad.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:58 | 3741505 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Sorry, I have better things to do. But I can recommend American Theocracy by K. Phillips as a starting point.... I would also recommend researching the implications of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad:

I would also suggest a history of economics text, there are a number of good ones out there. The more the merrier.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:04 | 3741538 semperfi
semperfi's picture

Let me guess, you have an Ivy League degree in either law or economics.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:17 | 3741600 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture


Economics is merely the continuation of ideology by other means (with apologies to Clausewitz)...

But I am very well educated and well least I have been told that...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:57 | 3741736 slimething
slimething's picture

I sure hope you are better educated on economic matters than on climate science issues. Whoa!

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:22 | 3741800 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Are you trying to bait me?

You will have to do better than that...

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:35 | 3741850 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

ur mom goes to college

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 14:24 | 3742229 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Better than going to the wharf to turn $10 tricks like yours....

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 20:06 | 3747008 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Flak's been 100% right about climate change & global warming. You've been 100% wrong so far.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:28 | 3742025 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Very well educated (lol) and well read (lol lol) and very very arrogant, tactless, and hubristic.

Oh well, c'est le fightclub.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:59 | 3742130 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Haven't seen much "fight".

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:58 | 3741508 prains
prains's picture

ALL your "ists" are belong to us, (Oligarchs)

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 10:46 | 3741448 arby63
arby63's picture

I sure hope you're wrong but I fear you are right. The nation would be far better off if we stopped the games and let this mess fall apart all at once.

A good chunk of Americans are quite capable of beginning the "rebuild" without gubmint intervention.

BTW, fuck DC.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 11:02 | 3741526 semperfi
semperfi's picture

There's no one more sad about this situation that me.  I don't see any "good guys" taking the lead and making a stand to reverse course. All I see are bad guys and cowardly good guys who are afraid to stick their necks out and do what's needed.  Most Americans think this is just temporary turbulance and that we will soon fly out of it into calm blue skys soon.  Most Americans are ignorant and worse, apathetic. They don't care to know. Nobody seems to care that the NSA has bugged their cell phones by inserting their own software into them. Nobody cares about the 4th Amendment, or even knows what it is.  Nobody cares about the Constitution, nor do they even know what's in it. Sad state of affairs. 90% of Americans don't even know who Ben Bernanke is, or what the Fed is, or does. Etc, etc.  Our complacency is leading to our demise.  We are complacent cattle headed to slaughter.  Those that are awake and prosperous but not connected to the bad guys running the system will be the new Kulaks. (I apologize in advance Flak for the label).

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:21 | 3741798 Spanky
Spanky's picture


For blindness...

I don't see any "good guys" taking the lead and making a stand to reverse course. -- semperfi

Look at the guy in the mirror. Good or bad? Don't bitch about "apathetic" Americans unless the guy in the mirror is willing to stick his neck out... and stand for something.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:40 | 3741866 semperfi
semperfi's picture

You don't know that I'm not, do you. Hence, the blindness is in your court.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:10 | 3741989 Spanky
Spanky's picture

I merely reflect what you write. You see no "good guys", do you not? Do you advocate a useful plan or strategy? If not, it's merely bitching. If so, I'm all ears.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:11 | 3741767 Spanky
Spanky's picture

If your scenario is accurate, then it is up to us to collapse it, in our own best interests.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 12:34 | 3741842 semperfi
semperfi's picture

Jefferson knew this best.  Hence, 2nd Amendment being the most important tool.  If that is ever taken away its eventual game over gauranteed.

Thu, 07/11/2013 - 13:33 | 3742032 Spanky
Spanky's picture

I'm trying to get you to think, differently. But your writing indicates you have already surrendered. 

If [the Second Amendment] is ever taken away its eventual game over guaranteed. -- semperfi

This is a prime example; I've never met a marine whom would be parted from his rifle. They will fight first. But our rifles are our last resort. We have other tools, powerful tools, in the Declaration of Indpendence, Constitution and Bill of Rights. But, according to your profile, you ought to know that...

I'm looking for leaders, and see a few. But they do not recognize themselves, just as the sheeple do not recognize reality. Yet.

Fri, 07/12/2013 - 09:30 | 3744676 i-dog
i-dog's picture


"I'm looking for leaders"

Hmmmm ... you're not the only one scanning the interwebs for signs of leaders...

Go asymetric, bitchez!!

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!