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Source: Goldman Sachs
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Sorry, yeah, yur talking just surgeon and facility here.
Gas passer, nurses, several days in recovery to watch for peritonitis, drugs; these numbers are relevant as only being relative.
Yes, I stand corrected.
Please Mr DW, the costs shown are very low. Your humility is honorable, but unnecessary.
I would not suggest going through the process to discover the truth, as the master teaches (wink), but you seem to have enough natural skepticism to be able to navigate the situation without my ill informed and minimal Knowledge.
In other words Carry on brother.ald
Without this idiot pricing for 18% of USA GDP, times will be really bad. If someone breaks their leg, how much would this cost? You will be shocked? Heavens forbid one breaks a complicated joint like the wrist.
The great thinkers in the White House believes if you add 30% more patients to the healthcare system growth will skyrocket. I told my kids I have cut the splints and have a deal with local veterinarian if you should break any bones and DO NOT LET THEM TAKE YOU TO THE HOSPITAL!
If people with a broken leg would be aware of the bill they'd get afterwards, their desire for a hospital willstop within a heartbeat.
The TV told me I get what I pay for, so I'm just going to state the obvious: American health care is clearly the best in the world.
And that's why Europeans live 8 years longer on average.
They live 8 years longer because the average European is 90% white, while the average American is only 70% white. Breakout the categories by race and Americans do very well on healthcare comparisons. Not enough to justify the costs, but the cost is delivering some additional benefit.
Ever seen a breakout on socio-economic status? Just curious.
... Europeans live 8 years longer on average.
Congratulations. But life expectancy is not a credible method for measuring the quality of a healthcare system because, for such a claim to be valid, all individuals who die would have to interact with the healthcare system. This is clearly not true.
Second, there is no relationship between life expectancy and spending on healthcare. There are numerous examples of countries that spend less per capita on healthcare than others, and yet have higher life expectancies.
Life expectancy is influenced by plenty of factors including genetics, diet and education levels.
http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA547ComparativeHealth.html
There is a a place in southern Ecuador named Vilcabamba which is known as the "Valley of Longevity." Residents there commonly live to be 100 years or older.
http://yourescapetoecuador.com/retirement/expat-retirement-communities-i...
No, that would be down to socioeconomic factors - not healthcare.
It's got nothing to do with inflation! Wake up!
Lobbyists bought your government and bought the right to milk the US lifestock.
Try again. The $10K in Tulsa thing is only if you have insurance. It's more like $30K if you pay cash because you have to pay for the deadbeats who skip on their bills too which is way fucked up.
Hell at those prices you mayswell watch a youtube video and do it yourself.
don't forget to buy my DIY apendectomy kit on ebay first
Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde economics.
Now add in the tax bite from the socialized medical countries and see what you get.
http://mises.org/daily/6476/The-Truth-About-SwedenCare
No chart pr0n
Exactly. I live in Sweden and I can get my appendix removed for only $20...
...plus 70% of my income.
heh...very good
So the Miser Institute should try to figure out how much US citizens pay in insurance premiums, deductibles and copays, on top of taxes that are dedicated to health care to get a better picture of what the burden is for US versus countries with Universal heath care (which Obamacare is NOT, as everybody knows).
The prices are all fake. They are set by the government pricing board, aka Medicare, and the health insurance companies converge on it or go higher.
Hospitals and insurance companies love to hide and socialize costs. That's why you see $100 aspirins. If medicine were treated like other industries, most hospital administrators would be in jail and most health companies would pay massive damages for anti-trust, anti-consumer, price fixing behavior.
Instead, the government, health and insurance industries collude to rape the public, blame it on the free market, and then jack up costs some more. Which is why the only goal of Obamacare was to drive up total spending, not actually reduce costs or lower spending.
The government could help reduce healthcare costs immediately by doing a few things: slash Medicare spending by 30% and ration care (no hip replacements past age XX), use the commerce clause to allow people to buy insurance across state lines, and tax all health benefits as wages (offset by income tax reductions). The net result would be a collapse in healthcare prices and probably an increase in life expectancy thanks to a reduction in iatrogenics.
Curious to see how many uninsured non citizens are serviced by Canadian healthcare system vs the US healthcare system. I have no idea but I cannot think of a scenario in which it doesn't drive up the cost paying customers incur. This is not a comment on immigration just purely financial and I honestly do not know the answer but someone must have an idea, no?
Not many in Ontario because we issue ohip cards to anyone with a pulse and for those that dont pass that test, you can buy a red and white ohip card on the streets *cheap*. There is a 3 month waiting period.
In the US health/illness care -- like education -- is a much bigger for-profit business than anywhere else. They'll charge "whatever the market will bear".
It just won't 'bear' as much elsewhere, as people and their Govs have decided that health & education are a tad more important than warfare (MIC) or endless exec bonuses. Put another way, "social stability" is deemed more important than a "free-for-all" for a few rich/powerful people.
In fact, the argument has been made successfully elsewhere that Health & Education are of "National Interest & Security". These health/education programs get undermined by poorly controlled immigration, and is starting to trouble the countries shown. Also... "financial Americanization" has crept in, so their alleged 'costs' (i.e, profit margins) are climbing.
In fact, it probably makes most $ense to pay your MD in ca$h for most visits & treatments, and get private insurance for "extreme events" (surgery). You'd still come out ahead at the end of the year -- in most cases. Unless you're a woman in child-bearing years or over 55.
Unlike the US, private health care providers are allowed to compete nationally -- thereby preventing state-level monopolies and improving economies of scale. Good luck in beating health lobbyists in DC to get national-level health care competition. Too many Exec bonuses at stake with the Status Quo.
An increasing number of people are globalizing their health care, and get certain surgeries done outside the US. There is a regular cottage industry evolving, so this should be of great interest to all the ZH free-market & entrepreneur types.
"There is a regular cottage industry evolving, so this should be of great interest to all the ZH free-market & entrepreneur types. "
In fact, I am looking for development partners to create a 'recovery resort" in this place near a soon to be opened hospital and an international airport in the Philippines
Ah yes, I see. A chance to profit on a market made to be fed customers....I mean patients..... I mean postcare units......by the less expensive, state run enterprise. Talk about purity of objective. "We care for you long time. No shit".
If we had a president with balls and wisdom, he would instruct the attorney general to sue the states under the commerce clause, stopping them from mandating procedures be covered that reduce insurance options, and lead to near monopolies.
I'm curious about the source of this data. Googling "appendectomy goldman sachs" only returns this page and two that mirror it, nothing from Goldman Sachs, and nothing explaining how the numbers were calculated. Sorry for the skepticism, but with ZH having crossed the boundary from anti-establishment to anti-American in the past few weeks, it's necessary.
BTW, the whole "without comment" thing is getting old, Tylers.
Anti American? Oh please do tell.
Sometimes pictures say more than words. If anything, pointing out the flaws in your country is the most patriotic thing you can do.
Okay, let's do this middle school style.
Do you like debt?
[ ] yes
[ ] no
[ ] mayb
As my stupid fucking cat might say "What's debt? Can I eat it?"
There are some good YouTube videos for those do it yourselfers.
Oh come on guys, clearly American doctors are worth five times as much as their European counterparts. This article's author just hates us for our freedoms.
*sings*
God bless America...
Great. I cried into the breech of the weapon I just cleaned...
I will do it for you for 300.
Did see that on TV.
My grandma was a doctor, dont worry...
Dr Nick methods are cheaper...
Appendectomies may cost much more in the United States but you get the added extras like post-operative infections, MERSA bugs, staph infections, and the lottery of drug mixups.
Actually it's fairly rare to get a post op infection from an appy. The surgery is far less invasive now. An you'd certainly wouldn't want to do medical tourism when it's on the verge of rupturing. I am concerned about a lot of super bugs coming over to this country from the inappropriate use of antibiotics in foreign countries. Many are becoming more common in areas where medical tourism is popular. Things like NDM-1, carbenicilin resistant Kleb, XDR TB coming out of India and Asia. If These guys manage to seriously invade this country you will reminisce about the happy go lucky MRSA days
Miffed;-)
Presentled with NO comment.
http://www.surgerycenterok.com/pricing/
All those prices are COLLUSION PRICES by the providers.
Legalized collusion is rampant is USA
And if the insurance carrier finds out a medical provider has charged a patient less than the agreed upon price (an all cash transaction for example) the insurance carrier will sue the medical provider. It's like the Godfather on steroids.
Now why wouldn't I as an owner of a hospital employing staff be able to charge what I felt like what was right for my bottom line. Create great customer service, quality care at a quality price and expect to have a hospital full of sick people that sought out my services. Demand and volume might actually be more profitable because I run a better shop than the other guy?
Pretty naive to think competition and free market might drive down pricing and raise quality I suppose. Consider the patient a customer with choices might be beneficial to society. I'm guessing that's not how it works at all.
Whatadouche!
The obvious solution is to make everyone pay a middleman who snags no more than 20% of the cost as fees, and make it illegal for the patient to pay the doctor directly without the thrid party skimming 20%.
illegals at taxpayer expense
What are you, the brainless idiot who only speaks in soundbites?
Nice. But you don't see people leaving the US to get cheap apectectomies. For instance, an apecdectomy in India is probaby less than a $1000. Imagine the backlash if Congress madated you had to go to India for a apecdectomy. Whatever this chart says, there's someone who's paying a coyote $30k+ to get their throat cut near Arizona. Think about it.
Dingbat, An appendectomy is an emergency procedure that happpens immeditately after your appendix bursts, you don't have time to shop around and travel to India.
The US hospitals have you by the balls and will guage you and our insurers on the price because they can, and that is "the American way" when it comes to healthcare.
USA! USA! USA!
Uh, not!!...most appendectomies are not emergencies, but taken out to avoid a possible perforated, or a burst one...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-01-19-appendicitis19_st_...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1876946/
So, information is necessary before labels get applied to people, no?
What is it like to be guaged? It sounds painful. Like being hypothecated.
Guaged?
It's actually much worse than the above graphic suggests. In California, for instance, "researchers uncovered an enormous discrepancy in what different hospitals charge, ranging from a low of $1,529 to a high of nearly $183,000" for a routine appendectomy. http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/04/11927/medical-bills-sticker-shock-and-confused-consumers
My son had an appendectomy a few months ago (in California; no complications). Charges came out to $44k.
great post..this should be the lead. i saw this sort of comparison on the stewart's daily show a few months ago.
i guess it would be too much of a reach to expect "free" air ambulance flights sponsored by banks so that patients could suffer the least cost.
can you imagine making use of the already tax payer funded army medivac faciltiies via helicopter from one place to another? hell that would mean a taxpayer would get something back for taxes paid. mind you, less that 20% of the country actually pays net taxes and thenew government "Krugman" model is nobody pays taxes and the Fed prints the deficit, so everything should be free to everyone, since no-one ever has to pay for anything.
Typical garbage Goldman Sachs data. An appendectomy doesnt cost $2436in Canada, if you're a Canadian. My brother just had his out. It cost $0 under the Canadian Health Plan (BCHealth here in Vancouver). $2436 must be the price for a foreigner having an emergency operation in Canada, which means that the data might not be apples and oranges. I bet the US numbers are prices for domestic residents, not tourist prices.
The $2436 is the surgeon's fee. It costs around 1200-1500 a day for non Canadians to be admitted to our hospitals. I think all the prices in the article are just the surgeon's fee.
In the U.S. they cut ya open, take out the organ, sew ya up, and send ya home! Next!
I'm moving to Canada because everything is free! Even the bitches!
What you meant to say was that your brother's direct charge was $0. It is certainly not true that the procedure cost nothing. That could only be true if the hospital, surgeons, nurses, anesthetists, technicians, clerks and the rest of the staff worked for free. And suppliers and vendors donated goods and services as charity.See your optician for myopia.
Hey Tylers, what about a little report on what the line items are in the US vs. Canada, or Germany. Somebody has a 75% cut in the US, and we'd all love to know who it is.
Get high-quality health care at a fraction of the U.S. costs when You Escape to Ecuador!
http://yourescapetoecuador.com/health-care/
Yes, escape to Ecuador. Our world famous surgical services are a fraction of the cost of US operations. We are justly famous for our cuisine and rigorous protection of individual liberty. Come for our appendectomies, stay for the legal-free aftermath.
What else would you expect with "Market Forces" driving things?
Single Payer, bitchez....
Hah, hah, hah....
What about the Surgery Center of Oklahoma? Google them and you might be surprised on how they operate and their prices.
Yep you Americans have the most ill-functioning & most expensive health system of the Western world.
C'mon shake the tree : the crooks will fall off it and things will be better afterwards. (Also works for the banking system).
Both Banking and Medicine have Big Gummint intervention, destroying market forces that would otherwise drive prices to a reasonable level. The decline in prices for procedures like Lasik (very little insurance / gummint intereference) shows that market forces can work in medicine.
You meant to say 'beat around the bush' and shoot whatever comes out.
In America, all citizens were supposed to enjoy liberty. This included doctors.
No health, dental or any other kind of insurance due to job downsizing from a 20 year position in upper management. Wife needed one tooth gum surgery. Basically a patch of skin from roof of mouth sewn to bottom tooth in front. Small tooth. 670.00. Two shots. 35minutes. That is just over 1300 dollars an hour. Anyone in here not trading futures make that kind of money. She recently broke forearm while mowing neighbors lawn. He is busy dying of cancer so we help out. Including ER visit and follow up surgery with overnight hospital stay. 45 thousand dollars. I was making 100k a year with full insurance coverage. Now arm wrestling with his home owners insurance company. Most of us are one serious job loss or sickness or injury from losing everything we worked our whole lives for. I have worked since I was 12 summers and full time since 19. Health care as it is in this country with the insurance and legal system is totally screwed up. And, your average foursome at the country club on weekends is one doctor, one lawyer, one insurance executive and one judge or upper level government employee. It is all broken and mismanaged. It all needs serious restructuring. I had two car wrecks with me at fault in neither. An MRI on shoulder with insurance was 2850 dollars. After my job loss I had to have one out of pocket. Including reading of results, 450.00. It's broken. It's broken badly. I can't fix it but I do smell a rat, a lot of rats. Who will fix it? The government? Really??? The lawyers??? Really???? I don't know but we need fixing.
Where is the world map with prices of Big Macs? But seriously, can we trust any chart from Goldman?
Check out surgery center of Ok. Probably do it for $3 to 5 k.
All amercian medicince and big pharma haters..Boycott both. Dont use the products...best revenge.
1st Peter 2.24 is he best idea.
That's funny; Canada is $2436. With my insurance, any operation, like an apecdectomy, would cost me about $3000, after all the deductibles and co-pays, etc.
To me, the biggest problem in the U.S. is the Insurance companies. They push the prices up, and then the idiot Americans think they got a big deal when they pay $3000 out of pocket for an operation, after their insurance "pays the rest".
If you don;t have insurance, it will cost you much more. I had a small accident, wnet to the ER and had insurance. Somehow the paperwork was messed up and a bill arrived for over $5000. I called the hospital and straightened out the insirance info and later received an acknowledgement that the bill was paid in full for $900. I called the hospital and aked them why $900 paid the bill in full when I was billed over $5000. I was told that the insurance companies pay a negotiated amount.
THis means that those without insurance and those least able to pay will have to pay more than 5 times more for the same service than those with insurance. Time to scrap Obamacare and have single payer medicare for all.