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House Republicans Plan To Link Debt-Limit And Shutdown Into One Fiscal Fight

Tyler Durden's picture


Nancy Pelosi tried hard this evening (in the post WH meeting presser) to position the Democrats in order to disavow the inevitable but now Bloomberg is reporting that:


House Republican leaders plan to bring up a measure to raise the U.S. debt-limit as soon as next week as part of a new attempt to force President Barack Obama to negotiate on the budget by merging the disputes over ending the government shutdown and raising the debt ceiling into one fiscal fight. This is not what most sell-side strategists expected as a base-case; in fact it is close to a worst-case for many - especially given Obama's apparent unwillingness to negotiate.


Via Bloomberg,

House Republican leaders plan to bring up a measure to raise the U.S. debt-limit as soon as next week as part of a new attempt to force President Barack Obama to negotiate on the budget, according to three people with knowledge of the strategy.


The approach would merge the disputes over ending the government shutdown and raising the debt ceiling into one fiscal fight.


“I’d like to get one agreement and be done,” House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy told reporters today without offering details.


Republican leaders are attempting to pair their party’s priorities with a debt-limit increase, a plan they shelved last month to focus on a stopgap measure to fund the government in the new fiscal year. The goal is to have a bill ready in coming days, even without resolving the partial government shutdown, according to a Republican lawmaker and two leadership aides who asked not to be identified to discuss the strategy.


So... uh...

The President made clear to the Leaders that he is not going to negotiate over the need for Congress to act to reopen the government."


But the Republicans plan to link the debt ceiling to the re-opening of government...

It seems - as President Obama warned - this time is different (no matter how much the Fed tries to do, we suspect the politicians 'need' a crash to get something done)...


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Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:27 | 4016512 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Bullshit.  Theater.  R's are paid off by the same bankers D's are paid off by.  I will eat my own asshole if there is a real failure to raise the debt ceiling (by which I mean more than a gesture -- a real line in the sand where we default).  It is not going to happen.  

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:31 | 4016535 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

No need to dine where the sun don't shine, it's all Kabuki and playing to the conservative constituents. 

When push comes to shove, public outrage over not getting their handouts will make them cave.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:37 | 4016559 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

Headline: "House Republicans figure out how to masturbate."

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:38 | 4016563 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

And Dems learn to like the taste

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:44 | 4016582 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

this is all theater for the Treasury market.  if we just blew through the debt ceiling again the markets would lose confidence.  so they have to act like it matters like they care.  

I think the Syrian dust up which was actually going to lead to war with Iran which would provide cover for raising the debt ceiling because of course no one could ever contest raising the debt limit while we're at war.  what we're seeing is plan B.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:48 | 4016617 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Maybe they will default. Maybe they know that the knee jerk reaction of a default would be to drive the 10yr sub 2%...maybe even sub they default for a day or two. Stawks would snap right back and we would get borrowing costs down huge.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:31 | 4016767 DJ Happy Ending
DJ Happy Ending's picture

Maybe Michelle Obama will get involved like Nancy Reagan and Hillary used to do with their husbands and take care of business.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:49 | 4016844 strannick
strannick's picture

Anyone who sees this debt ceiling farce and doesnt buy gold, probably has a ''hope and change'' bumper sticker

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:12 | 4016948 booboo
booboo's picture

I'll wait and buy yours at sub 700.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:25 | 4017210 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Won't be buying mine..., nor his either I bet.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 01:11 | 4017410 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Maybe is buy Boris' copper at 700:)

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 09:12 | 4017946 superflex
superflex's picture

If it goes to 900 I'll be buying and not selling.  Just like 90% of the people here.


Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:58 | 4016647 Mike in GA
Mike in GA's picture

I don't think these bastards plan that far ahead.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:25 | 4017005 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

Manning pretty much nails it.


VIDEO: OMG Pastor Manning gives it to Obama like it is; I can't believe what he says at the end; I spit my coffee out.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 01:16 | 4017420 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Boris confused. 99% black AmeriKa is vote Obama, not one, but twice... Now, is surprise Barry is screw-up communist love child?

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:58 | 4016649 Lone Deranger
Lone Deranger's picture

The people who tell oBummer what to do (who also really run the country), are probably still yelling at the people (in the NSA, CIA, etc) who let the Syrian invasion fall apart.  I can just hear them now... 

"You idiots!  You knew we needed that distraction, and now look where we are!!" 

"Get your butts over there and start a Middle East war, or even North Korea for cripes-sake before this damned debt ceiling thing gets real!!!" 

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:29 | 4017222 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

Blowing up North Korea would be easy.  There is so little electricity, just bomb it at night and shoot out the lights.  Then drop fire ants on the entire place.  Their lives are pretty miserable now, just wait until the fire ants start stinging anyone who tries to eat them.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:45 | 4016590 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Heard a couple discussing this over coffee this morning. 

"You hear the US government is shutdown?" "Really? Why?" "Because they're fucking idiots?"

Bingo! Everything that needs to be said about this debacle in one nice concise phrase!

Please for the love of Gawd, the world has not stopped spinning - there are other news stories out there beyond breathless non-updates on the continuing shutdown.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:51 | 4016629 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

The worst case scenario for the statists in this situation is that the shut down lasts long enough for people to realize just how little the Federal government is needed.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:20 | 4016739 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

That's all well and good, but I was talking about the media coverage. Periodically these idiotic debates come up & are covered 24/7. The stories that come out seem like coverage from a pre-school. 

Billy won't even talk to me!! Boooo crryyyyy wahhhhhh

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:05 | 4016921 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

Totally disagree. Your average Joe phony conservative will change his mind when his business that relied on .gov workers salaries to keep said business running fails.

"Hey, maybe I didnt build that"

Heard Tim Kaine (VA) today saying that he was taking complaints from one of his most conservative districts that NASA had shut down and the local economy was getting crushed because of it. Its all well and good to say "We need smaller govt" until you really have to come to grips with the fact that your small biz is totally reliant on it. Not saying I agree with the mindset, just pointing out the harsh reality. You can guarantee that if this drags on, it will push many more onto the dole.


Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:14 | 4016949 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

"until you really have to come to grips with the fact that your small biz is totally reliant on it"

Nobody is listening to "small biz."  They're completely irrelevant.  Big Biz, different story.  They were in the White House today.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:19 | 4016978 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

As usual, the little guy is gonna get the shaft.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:16 | 4016964 booboo
booboo's picture

"We need smaller govt" until you really have to come to grips with the fact that your small biz is totally reliant on it.


and my guess is you are home walking the wifes dog because your government job has been deemed non essential.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:23 | 4016989 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

Not sure how you came up with that one bub, but you are incorrect.

I'm just pointing out that this will kill many small businesses, put more people out of work and onto the dole, and prove that many so called conservatives are actually for big govt.

Oh yeah, bite me.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:36 | 4017060 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

If this wasn't totally scripted, then in a default there would be no 'dole' for people to go on and no .gov to speak of. Corporations and .gov would collapse under their own weight. Small businesses would be flexible enough to fill the breach.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:42 | 4017082 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

Sorry, was speaking only of the shutdown. A default (that will never happen, and it doesnt matter cause its all bs anyway) is a different matter. Tying them together seems like a decent enough strategic move. The outcome will be the same regardless. Little guy=screwed.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:57 | 4017105 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

Default is already happening via QE. Less questions to answer from the debt holders versus a 'hard' default. It is a strategic move tying the two together, at least from a PR standpoint. In order to get the sheep to quit worrying and make sure both parties come out more 'needed' by the sheep then they were going into this and not realize what fresh hell awaits them thanks to the new bipartisan 'deal' they made with money that isn't theirs to begin with. Your right though we will get screwed.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:38 | 4017064 mofreedom
mofreedom's picture

you smart joey.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:26 | 4017212 Blano
Blano's picture

This conservative understands that's exactly what should happen and I'm all for it.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:59 | 4017130 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

You have your chicken and egg mixed up.  The government is reliant on the business man, not the other way around.  Government starts with ZERO.  The productive man produces, then pays taxes. 

No doubt that businesses get hurt when people lose their jobs.  Furloughed employees have not lost their jobs.  They most likely will get back pay, which means that they are on a free vacation on our dime.  

Obamacare, however, IS causing people to lose their jobs.  Bad for businesses and government.

Your theory looks good on paper, but it doesn't play out if you are intellectually honest about it (which I believe you are trying to be, by the way).  If government workers are so great for business, then let's make everyone a government worker.  Oh wait, there would be no businesses to pay taxes.  

I take your point that furloughed workers won't be out spending, and that will cause all businesses pain in the short term.  But I would argue that the vast majority of small business owners do NOT expect the government to provide them with customers.  

I would also argue that if we don't reverse the course we are on NOW, then we will face a complete government collapse later.  The math is unemotional about it.  How will that be better for anyone?

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:27 | 4017219 Blano
Blano's picture

He is right to an extent, but that govvie dependent chaff needs to be weeded out as well.  So be it.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 09:05 | 4017919 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

This might be how it used to be, but today we're still in a fantasy world where money gets printed, wheels get greesed, and business is funded by the government, either directly or indirectly through government contracts.  No big government means less business funded by the DOD and other socialism - that is your blind spot.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 01:43 | 4017445 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

I speak for 99% of small business owners: The government is not our friend. They drain our resources, force us to waste time with paperwork, and aside from the roads people drive on to visit our businesses, we get precisely DICK from the relationship. We DID build it, not because of government's help, but IN SPITE OF their petty tyranny.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 09:06 | 4017926 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

A government funded by corporations that create rules so you cannot compete with said corporations.  THEY don't want you here.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:28 | 4017221 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 100 XenoFrog

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:22 | 4017488 EARLPEARL
EARLPEARL's picture

themselves or each other...or the dems..i am confusd please be more specific

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:31 | 4016537 SHEEPFUKKER

Surprised is still up and running, though it's probably off but a trill or two or a hundred. 

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:03 | 4017140 thelibcentury
thelibcentury's picture

200 hundred. or so...

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:33 | 4016538 ACP
ACP's picture

Yeah, if the Repussies had any ballz, they'd start negotiations with a reduced debt ceiling around $15 trillion and work lower from there.

But alas, they don't.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:23 | 4016742 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture


That would indeed be interesting, but it really doesn't matter.

Numbers on a screen that describe an imaginary substance like money will not be permitted to "take the system down".  The system will not implode.  The economies will not blow up.  Nothing having to do with numbers on a screen will be allowed to deprive the powerful of their power.  They will just decree a change to the numbers.

And make no mistake about it, every single relevant economic or financial entity worldwide will agree with the decree.

This is not going to "end the world".  Only oil can do that.  The joules in a barrel of oil cannot be changed.  They can be redefined, but they can't be decreed.  In the end, which is not far off, the powerful will lose their power only as a result of that.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:10 | 4017172 thelibcentury
thelibcentury's picture

It will be less than the barrel of oil that topples the domino chain. There are plenty of numbers on screens that cannot be controlled without vast, unreasonable conspiracies, plenty enough to set up unstoppable chain reactions.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:33 | 4016544 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

They may hard default and It is bullshit LTER, and I don't blame either party on this one. When they loaded up on those SPY puts they expected at least 1625 before they sold them and went long. 1690 ain't going to cut it. Now granted, a full blown default may actually get Facefart back below $50 and damage the recovery, but time will heal all.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:33 | 4016550 One And Only
One And Only's picture

You can't eat your own asshole. Nice try.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:08 | 4016689 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

I thought Obama was every American's asshole.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:33 | 4016776 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

One sharp knife invalidates your thesis, sir or madam.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:33 | 4016551 goldenbuddha454
goldenbuddha454's picture

I'd like to see that maneuver, one not even Ron Jeremy has attempted yet!

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:43 | 4016585 goldenbuddha454
goldenbuddha454's picture

If you have a few ribs taken out like Marilyn Manson, maybe then you could do that, but until then, I think the odds are against you.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:19 | 4016729 WTFUD
WTFUD's picture

Don't know about that, however, there's a few fuckers ribs i'd love to kick out, mostly depicted on WB's threads.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:48 | 4016611 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

So the pussies are going to fight now? I'll see it when I believe it. They are all con artisists, liars, shysters, crooks, and steamping piles of elephant dung. Panama looks better by the day....

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:50 | 4016614 Robsabi
Robsabi's picture

LetThemEatRand, I wish I could give your comment 100 upvotes. It's the best comment in terms of both content and form I think I've ever seen on Zero Hedge.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:58 | 4016648 goldenbuddha454
goldenbuddha454's picture

Me too.  Its so flawlessly written and eloquent in its delivery and substance.  Journalism students take note.  I think it deserves the coveted pulitzer myself.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:07 | 4016665 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

You guys are making my head big enough that I'm pretty sure I'm going to be able to reach my asshole to eat it (if necessary), even if you are being sarcastic.   Okay.  Back to yoga class.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:57 | 4016644 Absalon
Absalon's picture

The Republicans have already mismanaged things into a shut down.  The Republicans are stupid enough to mismanage this thing into a full on default.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:07 | 4016684 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

and your stupid enough to be a full on retard. Actually believing there is a difference between the red and blue teams. They all work for the banksters who own the Fed.



Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:31 | 4016774 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

There is going to be a default no matter who does the maneuvering. The debt can't be paid.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:52 | 4016864 BadDog
BadDog's picture

Correct. Math dictates the outcome, it's just a matter of what form it takes.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:09 | 4017466 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Just watched Stop Loss.

WE are their financial Stop Loss, whereby Patriots and the innocents are sacrificed for the fat cats and careerist, while slogging along to the meliflous sounds of nationalism, our 'values' and "way of life".

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 01:44 | 4017449 divide_by_zero
divide_by_zero's picture

Every POMO is a default, if the marks ain't griping already then they should be good with a "full" default.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:36 | 4016792 Absalon
Absalon's picture

The Republicans have already mismanaged things into a shut down.  The Republicans are stupid enough to mismanage this thing into a full on default.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:16 | 4016965 Truther
Truther's picture

Fuck off BITCH

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:17 | 4016968 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

For yes, it only takes one to Tango.

You are clearly missing half of the dance.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 01:46 | 4017451 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

We can't hear you. We're no fan of the tepid republican party, but your words are distorted bacause Obama's rancid cock is lodged in your throat.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:28 | 4017496 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Leaving the name-calling aside, suppose... Suppose they do "pull that off", then this would be "bad" how?

We'd finally get to stop being a scumbag Empire, and get to go back to our roots of being an honorable and admirable Republic.

Bring it on!

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:43 | 4017081 Bloody Chiclitz
Bloody Chiclitz's picture

Randmunch - thanks so much for that image.

Let's see, where did I put the mind bleach.

I'm afraid that some unfriendly force will take advantage general distraction caused by these jackholes and cause us harm.

Uppercut while we were looking at the drunks hollering at each other in the 6th row.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:30 | 4016517 Randoom Thought
Randoom Thought's picture

How about just leaving the federal government shut down forever? ... and let people work things out without federal government dictates and tantrums.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:28 | 4016518 jim249
jim249's picture

Let the party begin.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:30 | 4016528 FieldingMellish
FieldingMellish's picture

Goin' for a twofer!

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:47 | 4016536 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

Maybe the bankers that met with TOTUS today were begging him to do whatever it takes to get the debt ceiling raised. However, it is all theatre and the dems and repubs will come out with some BS compromise to keep the ponzi going at the last second. Just like the script is telling them to do! Meanwhile the bankers will take profits leading up to the engineered crisis to scare the sheeple into believing the lie. What if the only people that benefit from an increased debt ceiling is the Fed so they can keep printing? What if the time comes and the alleged 'default' occurs and nothing happens? If it is all just fiat shit anyways, then who really gets the shaft if .gov can't borrow no more? Primary Dealers...corporate welfare queens...the MIC...and its younger brother the prison industrial complex...its newest sibling the spying industrial complex? Who really stands to lose the most? Certainly not us since we are the all singing, all dancing, crap of the world.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:34 | 4016547 Zgangsta
Zgangsta's picture

Two worlds collide, rival nations...

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:37 | 4016562 involuntarilybirthed
involuntarilybirthed's picture

I see the Treasury, with Obama's direction, selling whatever is necessary to avoid any default.  It will be considered a national emergency or something, constitution be damned.  We may be facing a crisis in government where rule of law is put to test.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:50 | 4016610 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The Rule of Law is dead and buried.

We're now appealing to the kinder angels among us who had a hand in killing it and its falling on deaf ears.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:58 | 4016646 involuntarilybirthed
involuntarilybirthed's picture

So is the constitution now just a business model that gives supreme power to 546 (Congress, P/VP, SCOTUS) to rule over us? 

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:20 | 4016728 nmewn
nmewn's picture


The Constitution is simply the document that describes how the government will orgainize itself. The Bill of Rights, along with the Declaration of Independence, describes how we will orgainize ourselves against it.

Against, the Constitution.

That is the simplest way for me to say it and have anyone with common knowledge of what they are, understand the depth of these three documents, in their entirety.

In other words, there is no Constitution (the basis of a federal government) without the other two.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 08:24 | 4017782 involuntarilybirthed
involuntarilybirthed's picture

"In other words, there is no Constitution (the basis of a federal government) without the other two."

Trinity speak (Father, Son, Holy Ghost)?  All required?  But think we are more into the Allah system where he (basic constitution) is all that matters anymore.  The first two may matter to us but not so sure Washington much cares about such emotional beliefs and our translation is unimportant.  Meaning, that is how you see it but it is how they see it that matters.  I see it like you.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:38 | 4016566 blindman
blindman's picture

linking paying bills and debt limits, what a novel
notion, brings to light the essential temporal and
geographic coordination associated with finance;
the recently notorious and historic domain of the
international economist and bankster.
do the clash know the nature of fiat money, interest
and usury, systemic?

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:42 | 4016574 pauhana
pauhana's picture

Let 'er burn!

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:41 | 4016578 nmewn
nmewn's picture

There is no negotiation, stop spending what you don't have!

We've been very clear on this, to you, the Wall Street bankers & the takers that are enslaved by it all. Prioritize what's needed, the rest gets cut out, to bring in balance.

It doesn't need to be said again, children.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:10 | 4016939 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Haven't you read "The Creature From Jekyll Island?"  The Govt MUST keep spending MOAR (else the Ponzi collapses!)

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:42 | 4016581 NOZZLE
NOZZLE's picture

They should vote to cutoff funding for moochelles daily leg oiling and facial pubic hair plucking. The media would go nuts.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:08 | 4016685 knukles
knukles's picture

What about the back shaves?

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:28 | 4016759 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

All that doesn't amount to anything compared to the costs of the therapy for those who work on her.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:40 | 4016809 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture


Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:32 | 4017230 Blano
Blano's picture

Good God knucks I'm laughing and disgusted at the same time.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:43 | 4016586 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

All the azzholes in DC are nuttier than squirrel turds.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:45 | 4016600 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

boehner will fold - he is merely looking for the most visible, humiliating, and craven way to do it.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:30 | 4016765 Zer0head
Zer0head's picture

he badly wants to, and tonight they plotted the strategy on how he will

stay tuned ... he has effed and double effed the TP before and this time O gave him teh silver cross with which he will try to finish them off


it will play something like this


Boehner draws a dotted line in the beltway, the MSM hypes the hell out of his insanity in taking such a (faux) extreme stand

Barry then draws a dotted line (that will be reported as a thick red one)

Barry then sends out Madame Tussaud and the Cemetery Zombie to reinforce his position with plenty of weasel words

The MSM stews

Boehner then clarifies his dotted line with appropriate weasel words

the Cemetery Zombie acknowledges there may be some common ground

(by this time markets are hurting and the public is cranky)

Boehner and Harry  err I mean Cemetery Zombie meet and on a Friday before the debt ceiling a grand bargain is reached with both sides claiming compromise and Boehner waiving the rule of an up down


The Rhinos arrive to save the day and the S&P hits all time highs

Ted Cruz, well sadly 3 years from now people will thing he's Tom's cousin



Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:47 | 4016602 Icewater Enema
Icewater Enema's picture

Perhaps this was the plan all the time - Get the base riled up with Obamacare defiance, then shut down government and force Obama to the table with the real goal of forcing him to lower spending in return for the increase in debt ceiling. Do I give the Republicans that much credit for strategery? Probably not.

On the other hand, this could all simply be personal. Obama just doesn't like the idea of old white guys telling him what to do. 

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:15 | 4016956 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

I thought Obama liked older white guys.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:46 | 4016604 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

One fight!

MMA cage fight!

On the floor of the Senate!

Boehner versus Pelosi in leotards!

Brass knuckles m'phukers!

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:45 | 4016606 stant
stant's picture

god this is just like reading history leading up ro 1860. 2 partys argue untill they split into 4. then what everyone was saying could never happen did, game over america

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:37 | 4017253 CrimsonAvenger
CrimsonAvenger's picture

yep - the Fourth Turning strikes again.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:48 | 4016609 worbsid
worbsid's picture

Is this the crisis that gets Obama thrown out?  Wishful thinking ...

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:47 | 4016612 Heroic Couplet
Heroic Couplet's picture

The Republicans who voted with George W Bush on two unfunded wars and tax cuts for the wealthy? Debt? yea. 

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:00 | 4016652 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture full retard mode tonight - since obviously the blue team has done so much better on all that than the red team. LOL, like there are 2 teams. By the way, the gap between the wealthy and all the rest of us is greated now than 6 years ago in case you hadn't noticed.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:10 | 4016692 knukles
knukles's picture

These are scrums where different coloured jerseys are worn during practice

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:34 | 4016786 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

The Pugs and the Dums are a tag team.

It's as simple as that.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:01 | 4017468 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

Genius, if the left had its way we'd all be in shackles.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:48 | 4016616 butchtrucks
butchtrucks's picture

Good on the Tea Party Republicans for standing up against the communistical outrage that is Obamacare. They should not give ONE INCH in their refusal to pass a budget or raise the debt ceiling until this law is TOTALLY wiped off the statute books. If that means some pain all round then GOOD - no pain no gain. The important thing is to prevent deadbeats getting access to healthcare - that is a noble cause which it is worth fighting for every inch of the way.

But this is only a START. The Republicans need to ensure the defunding of ALL socialist programs that are bringing this once great country to it's knees including Medicare, VA, Medicaid and Social Security. These government-run programs are just pandering to people’s laziness and lack of personal responsibility and are totally un-American.

In this country good health is not a birth-right – it is a privelage – and a privilege that should only be available to those who are hardworking, wealthy, and smart enough to pay for their own insurance.

We should not try and emulate socialist hell-holes like Australia, Canada or Scandanavia where every dead-beat can access free public health systems regardless of whether they’ve saved up to pay for it or not.

The US got to be great through people standing on their own two feet and taking responsibility for their own health and well being. Not one dime of my taxes should go towards supporting socialized free health care for those too lazy, poor, old, or stupid to look after themselves.

Medicare in particular is the worst socialist program ever introduced in this country (by another socialist Dem President – Lyndon Johnson in 1965). It’s a single payer government run program funded from taxes paid by you and me – to support old sick people we don’t even know.

Back in the ’60s the GOP fought long and hard to prevent this communistic system becoming law. As Ronald Reagan said at the time the Dems were trying to force this thing through “If you and I don’t stop Medicare then one of these days we are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it once was like in America when men were free.”

George HW Bush Described Medicare in 1964 as “socialized medicine at its worst” and. Same with Barry Goldwater who said: “Having given our pensioners their medical care in kind, why not food baskets, why not public housing accommodations, why not vacation resorts, why not a ration of cigarettes for those who smoke and of beer for those who drink.”

Social Security is another Communist program that needs to be abolished right now. Did you know that the U.S. Social Security program is the largest government program in the world and the single greatest expenditure in the federal budget, accounting for 20.8% of the total budget? Needless to say it was introduced by yet another socialistic Democrat President – Franklin Roosevelt back in the 1930s. And what is ‘social security’ ? Its nothing but a program to take hard-earned money from the likes of you and me to allow lazy old people who didn’t bother to save for their retirement during their working years to live high on the hog.

So good on the Republicans for declaring war on Obamacare. Now I just hope they will see fit to start unwiding the other socialist and communistical atrocities such as social security, Medicare, Medicade and VA – which are also totally unconstitutional and totally un-American.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:00 | 4016653 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

Oh. My. Gosh. I don't even know where to start. How about at least spelling words correctly? Scandanavia? Where in the hell is that? And what is a "privelage"? Is it something like a privilege?

You think Canada is a "hell hole"? Tell me - have you ever been there? Because I have. And Scandinavia - I have a friend who grew up in Sweden. I would die to have traded places with her as a child.

The America you want and have wet dreams about - that's a "hell hole". Present-day America is a hell hole, for that matter.

Oh, and another ZH-er with zero knowledge of the political spectrum and political science. If you think Obamacare is communist, then you really haven't a clue in life.

Man, you sound like an anarchist. Seriously.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:03 | 4016670 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

Sounds awesome. You should consider relocating to one of those utopias.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:18 | 4016734 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

So you think America is perfect, then, huh? I'll bet that you never say a discouraging word about the USofA and its current president, right? America is number one, the greatest country in the world.

I suspect that the hypocrisy of your comment is lost on you.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:06 | 4017473 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

Everyone who loves where America is today thought it was an unmitigated hellhole 6 years ago under Bush Jr. Very little has changed, just a little more socialism: same police state, same unjustified foreign invasions, almost the same level of socialism. But now 'their asshole' is 'in charge' so they feel like winners. Pathetic.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:13 | 4016696 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

As if being an anarchist is a bad thing. You sound like a Harry Reid using words you don't quite understand as if they are a label of shame. Most of us ZH-ers know enough about the political spectrum and political 'science' to know all politicians save a precious few are bought and paid for. The only science involved is following the money to find out who paid for them.  

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:25 | 4016753 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

Perhaps if we didn't have political parties - you know, as some as our Founding Fathers spoke against - we wouldn't be in the situation in which we find ourselves.

Parties have one goal, and only one goal: To win elections. Parties are not in the business of governing, they are in the business of winning elections.

Of course, if you're going to have a political system that utilizes parties, then you shouldn't limit yourself to just two, as we do here in the USofA. The country that is the greatest in the world, I'm told, by people who likely have never been to any other country.

Most other countries don't limit themselves to two parties, but then again, they're not great like America.

And I understand the words I use quite well, thank you.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:23 | 4016838 Doyle Hargraves
Doyle Hargraves's picture

I have been to 5 continents. I have lived on 3 of them. The founding fathers were party members. Must not know of Whigs and Democrats. Pray tell how 'merica is any less corrupt than other places? 'merica was just less obvious about the corruption until recently.

The Articles of Confederation were strong enough to do what needed to be done. No more was needed. Don't really know what is so great about 'merica other than the geography and the few people who still have the independent, self supportive, ANARCHIST free spirit. There are some beautiful places here with truly independent folks who still wish to just be left alone by those 'parties' you speak of (note that those 'parties' aren't much fun to be a member of, certainly not as cool as my parties to be sure). 

The only reason we are in the situation we are in is because the Fed and the bankers who own the Fed own the politicians as well. There is no political spectrum and no good guys or bad guys just bought and paid for guys. Perhaps if you realize that you would understand how pointless your comments are about two parties, founding fathers and winning elections. The bankers win ALL elections by backing with enough money two members of those 'parties' (the bankers hedge their bets) and the sheeple hold there nose and vote believing they have a choice. 

Since it is still early on a Wednesday night I haven't started drinking, starting my own 'party' and kicking my band out of my house yet. I am here instead, passing the time feeding the trolls.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:08 | 4017476 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

Until about 100 years ago most Americans lived their entire lives without coming into contact with the federal government. No income tax, no property taxes.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:17 | 4017486 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

Excellent lucid comments, thank you.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:18 | 4016727 Everyman
Everyman's picture

Well, why don't you move or ... die?

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:18 | 4016975 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

Look, ther is no way to defend any of the gov programs the poster is railing about. So you don't want to just shut them down immediately? Fine, but at least acknowledge they need to be shut down.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:31 | 4017035 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

Oh c'mon Tsar, everyone know Canada is a 'socialist hell hole'.


Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:40 | 4017259 Blano
Blano's picture

I love Canada just for HNIC and Don Cherry.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:07 | 4017475 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

I don't know about the socialist part.  Hell hole, absolutely: there is seldom a group of sheeple more insufferable than Canadians.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:32 | 4017481 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

No, he does not sound anything like an anarchist.  He sounds exactly like a pea-brained Republican who wouldn't dare step outside his own shithole of a country.  And thank his fake god for that; I don't want that brainwashed fucking asshole polluting the rest of the world (where I live).

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 06:00 | 4017602 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

Americans travel around the world more than any other nation's people.  Name your country.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:54 | 4017513 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

Tsar Pointless,

At least you live up to your name.  You didn't have one cogent thought in that post.  Pointless.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:03 | 4016662 T-roll
T-roll's picture

"In this country good health is not a birth-right – it is a privelage – and a privilege that should only be available to those who are hardworking, wealthy, and smart enough to pay for their own insurance."

Really??? So what happens when people who are hardworking, wealthy and smart enough to pay for their own insurance get to sick or disabled to work?  What happens to people who get laid off after giving 30 years of their life to a company then end up getting laid off so that the CEO can keep getting a ever increasing salary?

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:13 | 4016710 butchtrucks
butchtrucks's picture

Not my problem dipshit.  It's socialists like you who think we the taxpayers have to take care of everyone else's problems.  Why don't you just move to Cuba??

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:47 | 4016837 T-roll
T-roll's picture

Who said anything about taxpayers?  I simply gave scenarios where people can do all the right things in life and fall on hard times.  What should we as a nation do with people like this who are out of work and can't afford to pay a six-figure medical bills?

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 00:43 | 4017385 F-Tipp
F-Tipp's picture

Oh, I don't know, do what we did in the 1800s where there was the greatest outpouring of charity the world had ever seen? Here's the kicker: .gov wasn't involved.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:13 | 4017482 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture


When the government defines 'need', the number of needy grows exponentially. When a truly needy person has to sit down across from someone who won't buy a BS story, and actually CARES about what happens to them and demands they change their ways, the number of 'needy' is suddenly much smaller.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 09:45 | 4018062 Abaco
Abaco's picture

We, as a nation, should not do one fucking thing. You, as an individual, and everyone else, should do whatever your morality dictates in terms of helping the unfortunate. You may think you are more moral and compassionate than me. You might be right. But when you advocate the use of force to compel me to conform to your idea of what is just then you become a tyrant deserving of nothing less than a lead sandwhich.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:55 | 4016873 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Well, your typical government lover should get what they deserve: any harm that guv causes them.

Those against the State are the only victims of it.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:27 | 4017008 olto
olto's picture


Take it one more step and let go of the guarantee of insurance----don't buy insurance---really take care of yourself-by-yourself.

Be a real individualist---take some risk---gain some freedom'

You want insurance/guarantee if you pay-for-it-yourself

People without work want insurance/guarantee----but you rail against who pays for it

Can't you see that what you are talking about is only---'who pays'?

I do agree that the ceos are lizards---scratch that---lizards have a purpose

At 45 you are out because you are too expensive-----that's fucked, but

Not much discussion about it






Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:05 | 4016673 noname
noname's picture

God damn I hope in your life you will not need help because more need it then do not. Also who moves the snow in the winter on your strreets do you do it yourself or does the govt. because regardless of our thinking there are many who need the govt. to help them get through where capitalism has failed them.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:56 | 4016878 Saul Sage
Saul Sage's picture

Charity should come from the individual, not be forced on him. Maybe if you read this it will help you understand:

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:37 | 4017500 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

"more need it then do not" [sic]

Here's some charity, bro: 'then' and 'than' are different words, and they even have different meanings.  Now, I've pointed you in the right direction; off you go on your own to look into it.


Thu, 10/03/2013 - 03:03 | 4017518 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

Charity does far better than government, both with money and skill.

The snow plows are local government, not federal, so don't confuse the issue.  And I'm sure this will shock you, but there are millions of streets where people have to shovel their own snow because there are no snow plows.  Those who can't shovel their own snow (i.e., elderly, crippled) are helped by (GASP!) their neighbors.


Thu, 10/03/2013 - 08:32 | 4017814 Bitchin Bear
Bitchin Bear's picture

God damn but I am so fucking sick of hearing about what people would do without the govt.  Remember that quote of Obama's:  You didn't build that?"  Where do these stupid fucks think the money to run .gov comes from?  That's right, us, the taxpayers.  We need to remind these stupid fucks that .gov has no money of its own.  It's not a producer EVAH!  Go pound some of that snow up your stupid fucking ass!

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 09:49 | 4018068 Abaco
Abaco's picture

The last two big snowstorms I weathered the roads were cleared by my neighbors and me (and the sun) because the workers paid by taxes extorted at gunpoint were running around making sure the streets where the politicos lived were cleared a couple times a day. 

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:13 | 4016707 noname
noname's picture

The timeline and message you are shouting your facts are just wrong.GOP, Goldwater,1964,George HW Bush quote you are just using incorrect verbage to make you point.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:18 | 4016726 butchtrucks
butchtrucks's picture

WTF? How are they wrong?  Everything I quoted is FACT.   The GOP has continually stood up against communistical outrages like SS and Medicaid and tried to prevent them becoming law - which is exactly what they are doing now with Obamacare.  They need our full support in this noble endeavour.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:36 | 4017050 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

-1 for calling any congressional action 'noble'.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:37 | 4017502 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

You swallow so much Republican propaganda that you don't have a fucking clue what a fact is.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:37 | 4017062 Escapeclaws
Escapeclaws's picture

You must be a liberal version of MDB! I'm sure you're having a laugh at the responses to your post.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:50 | 4016618 SilverIsMoney
SilverIsMoney's picture

Whatever happens I just hope this is it... we need a reset.  

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:06 | 4017156 Jethro
Jethro's picture

I have pondered this quite a lot. People here tend to be complacent creatures by indoctrination. From Kindergarten on. Raise your hand, ask permission, play by the rules. It's all very nice and orderly, and fair if everyone does the same. Spend some time in south Asia to witness the opposite. What we have here is nice by comparison. 

But, the elected authority figures we have are just as sociopathic, banal and corrupt as any third world shit hole. We just refuse to accept it. And it's not just elected leaders, it's leaders in private finance, industry, etc. They bribe the government and the government reciprocates ten fold. All are corrupted. These are predators in the basest sense. Does anybody pretend for a moment that they can be rehabilitated? Only death will change them, because they have no empathy, no compassion, no ethical or moral compass to guide them. They are parasites that have no interest in cohabitation with the host, they will consume until the host dies. It's their nature.

You call for a reset. I agree that one is needed. Be careful what you wish for. Prepare as best you can for the worst, and hope for the best.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:45 | 4017504 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

"We just refuse to accept it."

I'm pretty certain the USuckAss-ians all accept it--after all they keep subsidizing it and waving their half-witted partisan banners around.  I think the word you were looking for is they 'refuse to acknowledge it'.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:52 | 4016625 22winmag
22winmag's picture

...until certain RINO Republicrats rear their ugly heads and stab the people in the back.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:52 | 4016632 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Soon, so very soon.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 23:41 | 4017266 Blano
Blano's picture

Awaiting Gov. Christie's appearance on the scene.

Thu, 10/03/2013 - 06:38 | 4017626 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

At least we all will be able to feel/hear him coming. I don't think he done anything but grown since he got in office.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:52 | 4016633 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

Some people cannot, after all the evidence to the contrary, let go of the illusion there is any difference between the mainstream factions of the red and the blue team. And, they annoyingly come on here and try to explain why it's all Bush's/Obama's/Boehners/Reids fault.

Would be truly funny, if not so sad.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 22:10 | 4016940 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Some people can't let go of the illusion of government being beneficial.

Fri, 10/04/2013 - 13:19 | 4023072 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Some people can't let go of the illusion of goD.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:52 | 4016634 Quinvarius
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 20:53 | 4016638 Absalon
Absalon's picture

Given how badly the Republicans have been playing their cards it was inevitable that the CR and debt ceiling would be rolled into one. 

Now by officially putting the two together the Republicans are doubling down on a losing hand.

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:05 | 4016683 TrustWho
TrustWho's picture

Just prior to October 17, the House will raise the debt limit $300 billion. You heard this here first.

All funding is initiated from the House. The shut down fight IS ugly now. Who blinks first?

Wed, 10/02/2013 - 21:26 | 4016757 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

It's a losing hand only if they cave.

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